#H2H 15: Changes Along The Way - An Interview w/ Matt Heinz

WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:10.509 Hello and welcome to the BB gross show. My name is Carlos Hidalgo and 2 00:00:10.630 --> 00:00:17.510 I am your host for today's human to human segment, and I am please, 3 00:00:17.670 --> 00:00:21.030 delighted, excited and looking forward to this one for a long time, 4 00:00:22.100 --> 00:00:27.219 someone who I have incredible respect for, I am proud to call a friend, 5 00:00:27.260 --> 00:00:32.299 and I want to welcome the one and only Matt Hinds to the program 6 00:00:32.380 --> 00:00:35.259 Matt, thanks for joining us. It's a pleasure. Thanks for asking me. 7 00:00:35.729 --> 00:00:40.049 So we are both in quarantine, not because we are sick, but 8 00:00:40.210 --> 00:00:44.609 because that's what our local municipalities and leaders have asked us to do. So 9 00:00:44.890 --> 00:00:49.649 if you are listening to this podcast and you here perhaps kids in the background 10 00:00:49.649 --> 00:00:55.479 or dog bark or other things, just know that it is interesting times and 11 00:00:55.600 --> 00:00:59.679 I think everybody is, you know, working from home, schooling from home, 12 00:00:59.840 --> 00:01:03.079 doing whatever. But yes, it's interesting times for sure. So, 13 00:01:03.590 --> 00:01:07.829 Matt, I don't think you're a stranger to anybody who traditionally listens to the 14 00:01:07.909 --> 00:01:11.590 show, but just in case we have a marketer who's been living under a 15 00:01:11.629 --> 00:01:15.870 rock and doesn't know who you are. Give us a little background, boy. 16 00:01:15.950 --> 00:01:21.019 So I started kinds marking about twelve years ago, just me and a 17 00:01:21.060 --> 00:01:23.420 bus pass and a laptop and you know, our focus, my focus, 18 00:01:23.420 --> 00:01:29.859 is really on helping BBB companies build more predictable pipelines. So we are consultants 19 00:01:29.900 --> 00:01:33.290 that will help, you know, figure out what that means for individual companies 20 00:01:33.329 --> 00:01:36.409 and teach them how to do it and help that become part of their discipline 21 00:01:36.450 --> 00:01:38.730 muscle moving forward. So it's been a fun ride, you know, twelve 22 00:01:38.730 --> 00:01:44.489 years of pretty decent growth, but small team, very values driven, lots 23 00:01:44.530 --> 00:01:49.120 of content. I'm an old print journalist by trade, so blogging and creating 24 00:01:49.159 --> 00:01:51.879 content is kind of in my in my DNA and just it's been a lot 25 00:01:51.879 --> 00:01:56.239 of fun. Yeah, you are a prolific blogger. I will say I 26 00:01:56.319 --> 00:02:00.400 always enjoy reading even just your post on Linkedin, and one of the things, 27 00:02:00.469 --> 00:02:07.430 bat that I've always admired you for is obviously your marketing. SMART speaks 28 00:02:07.469 --> 00:02:12.189 for itself, but the way you are with your team and what I mean 29 00:02:12.270 --> 00:02:15.189 by that. I'm going to highlight this because it is a human to human 30 00:02:15.270 --> 00:02:19.939 segment. You put a lot of emphasis, even with a small team, 31 00:02:20.259 --> 00:02:27.580 on the culture and the humanity and really connecting with the people of your team. 32 00:02:28.900 --> 00:02:32.849 Why is that so important to you? Well, multiple reasons. You 33 00:02:32.930 --> 00:02:37.770 know. One, you know, we're consultants, so we sell what we 34 00:02:37.889 --> 00:02:40.289 do. So, you know, I want to be picky about who we 35 00:02:40.409 --> 00:02:44.919 bring on and I want people that aren't just good at be to be marketing 36 00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:46.199 or, let's face it, when no be to be. Marketing is complex 37 00:02:46.240 --> 00:02:50.280 as the buying journeys to become, Yada, Yada, is in rocket science. 38 00:02:50.759 --> 00:02:52.919 So you know, this is something that people can learn, people can 39 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:57.280 figure out. But your values and how you go about Your Business, you 40 00:02:57.319 --> 00:03:00.789 know, the choices you make, how you treat other people. That is 41 00:03:00.949 --> 00:03:02.990 crazy important to me and it's important to me that we have people that that 42 00:03:04.669 --> 00:03:07.430 how values driven in the way they treat each other, the way they help 43 00:03:07.509 --> 00:03:10.430 each other, and values driven the way they support and treat clients, prospects, 44 00:03:10.509 --> 00:03:14.139 partners, everyone is for in our in ourbit. So you know, 45 00:03:14.219 --> 00:03:16.659 it's what and what also is exciting for me is that, you know, 46 00:03:16.740 --> 00:03:20.979 what started with just me writing down what my values are and that became sort 47 00:03:21.020 --> 00:03:23.900 of our company values. We've really taken on and and I'm actually like when 48 00:03:23.939 --> 00:03:28.409 we do our reviews of values on a regular basis, now periodic basis. 49 00:03:28.409 --> 00:03:30.210 I would say I'm not involved in the first round of that review. I 50 00:03:30.289 --> 00:03:35.650 intentionally am not in the room as the team reviews and sort of provides. 51 00:03:35.689 --> 00:03:38.849 Suggested that it's to our values, so that it's not mine, it's ours. 52 00:03:38.650 --> 00:03:42.960 I've learned from people like you. Alex shoutman from the old could days 53 00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:46.280 is now at work front that. You know there's there's a difference between doing 54 00:03:46.360 --> 00:03:47.879 the work and doing it the right way, and I think both are important, 55 00:03:49.319 --> 00:03:51.719 but I think if you're doing it the right way it's a lot easier 56 00:03:51.719 --> 00:03:53.599 to go that direction than the other way around. Yeah, a hundred percent 57 00:03:53.639 --> 00:03:58.669 I and I'm glad you mentioned Alex. Alex want to come to especially when 58 00:03:58.669 --> 00:04:02.990 it comes to culture. He's known and obviously talented in many areas, but 59 00:04:03.229 --> 00:04:06.949 when it comes to culture I think Alex Shoutman is is one of the best. 60 00:04:08.550 --> 00:04:12.300 You mentioned doing it the right way. So now I want to shift 61 00:04:12.340 --> 00:04:16.540 to externally and with the people we serve in the BB market, and you've 62 00:04:16.620 --> 00:04:25.290 mentioned you started hinds marketing twelve years ago. You've got folks like pet poets 63 00:04:25.329 --> 00:04:28.290 and to Bangain. They've been at it for a long time. I co 64 00:04:28.449 --> 00:04:31.610 founded a nuitous fifteen years ago. So there's like this group of agencies. 65 00:04:31.649 --> 00:04:36.170 We all kind of started around that same time and I would bet that if 66 00:04:36.250 --> 00:04:42.639 you looked at a lot of the things we wrote back then, Byre Centricity, 67 00:04:42.759 --> 00:04:46.560 understanding your buyer, speaking to your buyer, content that alliance to your 68 00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:49.639 buyer, we might have used different terms, but we're still saying a lot 69 00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:55.149 of the same thing. Yeah, why are be to be brand struggling so 70 00:04:55.350 --> 00:05:03.069 much with understanding the human side of their buyers? Because I still, I'd 71 00:05:03.110 --> 00:05:10.579 say I get at least two per day on linkedin connection followed with would you 72 00:05:10.620 --> 00:05:15.379 like to see my demo? What's going on? You know, as much 73 00:05:15.420 --> 00:05:19.579 as there are people like you and I, and you mentioned Megan Eisenberg and 74 00:05:19.620 --> 00:05:23.250 a bunch of people that sort of are in the Eco Chamber that we see, 75 00:05:23.290 --> 00:05:25.889 or we used to see, a conferences. I guess we sort of 76 00:05:25.930 --> 00:05:29.730 believe in understand this. I think we represent such a small percentage of the 77 00:05:29.810 --> 00:05:32.569 overall business community and be to be community and I think there's an awful lot 78 00:05:32.569 --> 00:05:35.439 of companies that still just there, there, there, and I think we 79 00:05:35.519 --> 00:05:40.040 all naturally do this sometimes, that they're they're inclinations to think of themselves in 80 00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:43.000 their needs first. I mean you simply look at look at the copy coming 81 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:47.199 out of many companies and look at an email or or a blog post or 82 00:05:47.480 --> 00:05:51.509 your website page, and how many sentences start with I and wheat right? 83 00:05:51.629 --> 00:05:56.430 And that's that's the that's the sellers point of view, and so our natural 84 00:05:56.509 --> 00:06:00.589 inclination is to think about ourselves and translate what we want at through, what 85 00:06:00.829 --> 00:06:03.339 what we want to say, not what the customer wants to hear. A 86 00:06:03.500 --> 00:06:06.819 new client last week and they were as got. We were working through so 87 00:06:06.939 --> 00:06:11.779 to how to make adjustments to their their outbound prospecting approach. Right now, 88 00:06:11.819 --> 00:06:14.100 like, okay, how do you how do you sell with empathy, you 89 00:06:14.180 --> 00:06:15.819 know, and how do you sort of do that in a way that still 90 00:06:15.860 --> 00:06:17.220 respects the prospect, the right prospects, for where they are, and still 91 00:06:17.300 --> 00:06:21.490 get in front of them? And it took five or six tries of them 92 00:06:21.769 --> 00:06:28.370 writing copy to get it to be actually externally focused, to be something that 93 00:06:28.490 --> 00:06:31.250 a prospect might actually read and engage with, because it kept going right to 94 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:34.160 the sale at grow right. Here's what we want you to know, here's 95 00:06:34.160 --> 00:06:36.560 what we want you to do, here's what we know. We want to 96 00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:40.879 get you into a demo right away, like you said, and I get 97 00:06:40.920 --> 00:06:43.079 it. I mean look, I mean I'm running a business, I've got 98 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:45.800 a pipeline. I want those deals to close. Sort I'm not going to 99 00:06:45.839 --> 00:06:47.870 get in the close because by telling them that I really need them to close 100 00:06:47.910 --> 00:06:53.110 to hit my may number. So find some reason for them to want it 101 00:06:53.189 --> 00:06:57.269 to happen. And you know, especially in this moment we're in right now, 102 00:06:57.350 --> 00:07:00.470 like I mean, there's a lot of people whose pipelines haven't necessarily disappeared 103 00:07:00.509 --> 00:07:02.860 but are frozen solid because the people, you know, we got budget freezes, 104 00:07:02.899 --> 00:07:06.500 you got prospers aren't sure what to do moving forward. You're not going 105 00:07:06.540 --> 00:07:11.540 to grow tomatoes in winter, you know, and as bad as you want 106 00:07:11.540 --> 00:07:15.139 tomatoes, as bad as you'd like that plant that probably doesn't exist yet to 107 00:07:15.259 --> 00:07:17.810 grow tomatoes for you, it's not gonna. So what can you do? 108 00:07:18.529 --> 00:07:21.610 Like, if you got prospects that aren't interested in moving forward right now, 109 00:07:23.009 --> 00:07:25.529 asking them again and again for a demo, asking him again it again, 110 00:07:25.569 --> 00:07:28.290 what happened to that proposal you sent them? Isn't going to get them to 111 00:07:28.329 --> 00:07:30.959 move forward any faster. What are you going to do to till the soil? 112 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:32.360 What are you going to do to improve, you know, to add 113 00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:36.360 some fertilizer to condition the plants to grow some better starts this year, the 114 00:07:36.439 --> 00:07:41.199 start grow faster, earlier. What are you doing now to prepare for that 115 00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:46.029 harvest season later to make it more successful? So you're not going to control 116 00:07:46.149 --> 00:07:48.629 when someone's ready to close and ready to buy, especially right now. But 117 00:07:48.750 --> 00:07:51.310 what can you put in front of them? What can you give them? 118 00:07:51.350 --> 00:07:57.310 What can you share with them? Can you offer that reinforces trust, incredibility 119 00:07:57.350 --> 00:08:00.939 and loyalty so that when they are ready to buy again, you start you 120 00:08:01.180 --> 00:08:03.660 you start growing like a rocket ship. So, Matt, there's two things 121 00:08:03.699 --> 00:08:07.259 I want to talk about. But the first I appreciate you kind of going 122 00:08:07.459 --> 00:08:13.410 through and dissecting all of that, but when you when you look at it, 123 00:08:13.850 --> 00:08:16.329 and maybe I'm wrong, so feel free to tell me I'm wrong. 124 00:08:16.970 --> 00:08:22.970 Is this an executive issue? Because I see so many marketers and even sales 125 00:08:22.009 --> 00:08:26.600 people talking about my executive, my Cmo, my cfo, my CEO, 126 00:08:26.720 --> 00:08:33.919 etc. Etc. And I feel like so many executives don't really understand the 127 00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:39.039 true discipline and the human element that goes into good marketing. They just want 128 00:08:39.080 --> 00:08:43.110 it done and they think it can be done in two weeks or thirty days. 129 00:08:43.149 --> 00:08:46.309 Am I wrong or is there more to that? No, this is 130 00:08:46.429 --> 00:08:50.509 this is very much a leadership issue and you know you can make a readsheets 131 00:08:50.509 --> 00:08:52.909 saying anything, but just because you can put it in a spreadsheet doesn't mean 132 00:08:52.029 --> 00:08:56.460 you can make it happen in the market. You know, you have investors 133 00:08:56.500 --> 00:09:00.259 that have put money into companies and are expecting a certain amount of certain amount 134 00:09:00.259 --> 00:09:03.179 of money back in a certain period of time, and that may require unnatural 135 00:09:03.220 --> 00:09:07.379 acts in a market that's not ready for it. You know, before I 136 00:09:07.419 --> 00:09:11.009 started my business, I was at a VC back company that was expecting growth 137 00:09:11.090 --> 00:09:16.409 rate in an emerging market that just wasn't possible and you know their mentality was, 138 00:09:16.529 --> 00:09:18.330 well, you're either going to do it or you're not and you're going 139 00:09:18.370 --> 00:09:20.690 to get fired. Will find someone else to do it. But in the 140 00:09:20.809 --> 00:09:22.929 meantime, you know, if you want to keep your job, you'd better 141 00:09:22.970 --> 00:09:24.759 figure out a way to do it. And so that's where I think you've 142 00:09:24.759 --> 00:09:28.200 got a lot of companies that just go scored shirt on their prospects. You 143 00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:31.120 know, they're not looking for the best prospect of the best time and not 144 00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:35.600 trying to find the ideal mutually valuable match. They're just trying to call as 145 00:09:35.639 --> 00:09:39.509 many people as they can to make that spreadsheet work, to get a few 146 00:09:39.549 --> 00:09:43.470 people to close. And Look, the problem is also that that that that 147 00:09:43.789 --> 00:09:48.870 works. If you make enough calls and do enough emails and do enough of 148 00:09:48.950 --> 00:09:52.980 those Linkedin invice that you were complaining about, you will get a few people 149 00:09:54.179 --> 00:09:56.620 that accept it, that buy from it. So you'll hit your number, 150 00:09:56.620 --> 00:10:00.460 you'll go scorch dirt on everybody else. You'll ruin your reputation, your brand 151 00:10:00.460 --> 00:10:01.820 and your ability to sell to the rest of those people, maybe forever. 152 00:10:03.580 --> 00:10:07.090 So I think there's an awful lot of trading short term gains for long term 153 00:10:07.129 --> 00:10:11.769 value and equity and is a really dangerous tradeoff. Yeah, I mean, 154 00:10:11.809 --> 00:10:16.450 I guess if you break it down just to share volume, I should put 155 00:10:16.490 --> 00:10:18.210 a monkey at a keyboard. Eventually they're going to type of word right, 156 00:10:18.970 --> 00:10:24.960 but now I agree with you. I think the short term gain definitely is 157 00:10:24.120 --> 00:10:28.559 not worth the long term impact, in a negative impact at that. So 158 00:10:28.759 --> 00:10:31.600 the second thing you mentioned, you brought up a word that seems to be 159 00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:37.070 quite the rage and be to be right now, is empathy. I had 160 00:10:37.149 --> 00:10:41.549 a really interesting call not long ago with somebody who I know, you know 161 00:10:41.750 --> 00:10:46.029 and also respect while La Brent Adamson, we spent a lot of time just 162 00:10:46.149 --> 00:10:50.580 talking about empathy and kind of weighing. I don't know that we ever really 163 00:10:50.779 --> 00:10:56.779 came to conclusion, but kind of nerded out like his empathy. Is it 164 00:10:56.940 --> 00:11:00.539 just a word that we're all using because it's all the rage right now, 165 00:11:00.940 --> 00:11:05.090 or is it really being applied and in our companies doing it? And are 166 00:11:05.129 --> 00:11:07.649 they doing it well or they doing it right, and are they doing it 167 00:11:07.929 --> 00:11:11.049 through marketing and sales? What are you using out there? Because to me 168 00:11:13.090 --> 00:11:18.090 empathy is the way we start to humanize our approach to what we're doing in 169 00:11:18.169 --> 00:11:22.279 this be tob space. So let me answer that by giving you an analogy. 170 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:26.399 A few years ago it was all the rage for, you know, 171 00:11:26.600 --> 00:11:31.159 inside sales reps to bring up something fun, you know, at the beginning 172 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:35.549 of a pitch, to try to build some rapport with the prospect. So 173 00:11:35.830 --> 00:11:37.789 at a friend's I mean email he got from someone that literally it said, 174 00:11:39.190 --> 00:11:45.149 Hey, I see that you went to USC went to Ucla. It was 175 00:11:45.309 --> 00:11:48.580 it means for first all their rival. So like that's a bad right now. 176 00:11:48.740 --> 00:11:50.179 You could begin with second it was almost like someone like it was like 177 00:11:50.259 --> 00:11:54.299 film insert in a rapport building here, then move on to the pitch. 178 00:11:54.379 --> 00:11:58.460 It was just inauthentic. Yeah, if you really have a relationship with someone, 179 00:12:00.059 --> 00:12:01.090 even if it's a tenuous you haven't seen him in a while or you 180 00:12:01.090 --> 00:12:03.129 haven't talked to them, or maybe they were a lead six months ago, 181 00:12:05.049 --> 00:12:07.250 we call at how are you doing, like, how are you getting through 182 00:12:07.330 --> 00:12:11.210 this? What are some things you've learned? What you know? Ask Them, 183 00:12:11.450 --> 00:12:13.769 is there something that you don't miss from your old life that you actually 184 00:12:13.970 --> 00:12:18.639 or surprised you don't Miss? I mean find some question just to allow them 185 00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:22.120 to be human, allow you to show some humanity as well. It shows 186 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:26.039 that you care. And I mean I've I've used this opportunity I've gotten. 187 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:30.190 It happened the last few weeks of taking a long walk around the neighborhood and 188 00:12:30.230 --> 00:12:33.990 just bringing up list of people to call with me and just making phone calls 189 00:12:33.029 --> 00:12:37.509 and with no agenda, just a how are you doing, how are you 190 00:12:37.549 --> 00:12:41.230 getting through this? Do you need anything? Right? And it's been fun 191 00:12:41.429 --> 00:12:45.139 just to connect with people with that an agenda. And some people, depending 192 00:12:45.139 --> 00:12:46.019 on the relationship I've had with them, you know, they may be like, 193 00:12:46.100 --> 00:12:48.980 are you pitching for business? And then you get into their like, 194 00:12:48.019 --> 00:12:50.019 oh no, you're just calling to check in, like now, just calling 195 00:12:50.100 --> 00:12:52.580 to talk or just going to you know, to talk to some others, 196 00:12:52.659 --> 00:12:58.090 my family for a couples. So so, yeah, I think that they're 197 00:12:58.210 --> 00:13:01.529 I think empathy is good, but it had better be authentic, it had 198 00:13:01.610 --> 00:13:05.250 better be personalized, and I do. I someone talk told me about a 199 00:13:05.250 --> 00:13:07.169 week and a half ago. They said, you know, there's an opportunity 200 00:13:07.730 --> 00:13:13.480 with some of your prospects to move from selling with empathy to compassionate urgency, 201 00:13:13.240 --> 00:13:16.000 and I initially really kind of bristled at that. They get out now as 202 00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:18.480 we're being too aggress we said, now, hear me out. Like you 203 00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:22.039 know, there was a period four weeks ago when we were all watching the 204 00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:24.600 news, just watching bombs go off left and right. It was just shell 205 00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:26.870 shocked. Now we're kind of into this. We were kind of into our 206 00:13:26.870 --> 00:13:30.429 stay at home. We're kind of seeing a flattening of the curve. This 207 00:13:30.549 --> 00:13:33.350 is going to be a long game. We got to figure out what to 208 00:13:33.429 --> 00:13:35.590 do now. Like you know, we're not going to solve this problem, 209 00:13:35.629 --> 00:13:39.669 we're not going to fix our businesses and re and rebound our businesses by just 210 00:13:39.750 --> 00:13:41.820 waiting for this night beer to be over some morning. We have to kind 211 00:13:41.899 --> 00:13:46.620 a path forward. So if you, as a product or service, represent 212 00:13:46.779 --> 00:13:52.059 an essential business essential service, if you represent something that can they can materially 213 00:13:52.179 --> 00:13:56.450 help your prospects, you know, make the rebound more real, you have 214 00:13:56.529 --> 00:14:01.730 an opportunity to provide some clarity and direction for them. That's not something you 215 00:14:01.850 --> 00:14:05.570 necessarily do with a cold prospect that you're just randomly cold calling, but if 216 00:14:05.570 --> 00:14:09.360 it's someone were you know that this has disrupted the the the rhythm of business, 217 00:14:09.399 --> 00:14:13.120 but not necessarily the need or the required outcome that you were talking about 218 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:18.240 before, create a path to help them get back on their feet and that 219 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:20.960 can help the benefit both of you. Yeah, I love that. I 220 00:14:22.159 --> 00:14:24.830 love that as creating that path to help. HMM, and you're right. 221 00:14:24.909 --> 00:14:28.629 I mean so many of what I'm getting today as hey, I hope you're 222 00:14:28.669 --> 00:14:31.470 okay during these times. By the way, we can do X Y Z 223 00:14:31.629 --> 00:14:37.029 in your life. I've sure right who instructed you to put that line in 224 00:14:37.149 --> 00:14:39.500 your email, because now it's just to your point in offending and it feels 225 00:14:39.539 --> 00:14:46.299 manipulative to me and it's just an instant elite. Yep. So with with 226 00:14:46.620 --> 00:14:54.769 your I believe I don't know. I believe empathy is learned, and especially 227 00:14:54.809 --> 00:14:58.210 in a business sense, and I will say, let me, let me 228 00:14:58.330 --> 00:15:01.809 rephrase that. I believe empathy is learned in a business sense, because I 229 00:15:01.850 --> 00:15:05.769 don't think marketers buy and larger sale. People buy and large our program to 230 00:15:05.809 --> 00:15:09.159 say hey, let's be empathetic, let's zero in on the human need and 231 00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:13.120 let's see if we can help them address that need. It's about push our 232 00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:16.320 product, push our service, so on and so forth, fill the pipeline. 233 00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:20.039 So what are you doing? You mentioned the one client where it took 234 00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:24.950 him five times. What are you doing to bring your clients to that place 235 00:15:26.070 --> 00:15:30.309 where they say, okay, it is worth taking the time to do this 236 00:15:30.549 --> 00:15:35.940 the right way, to get better result and resist the urge to Oh my 237 00:15:35.980 --> 00:15:37.860 God, we got to get something out the door. Well, it's not 238 00:15:39.100 --> 00:15:41.379 different now than it has been in the past. It's sort of understanding, 239 00:15:43.059 --> 00:15:46.500 you know, clearly understanding what your objective is as a business, is a 240 00:15:46.580 --> 00:15:50.970 brand, but then filtering that through, like who am I talking to? 241 00:15:50.169 --> 00:15:54.929 Why do they care? What is their situation? What's the context into which 242 00:15:54.970 --> 00:15:56.929 this message of this ask is going to is going to is going to be 243 00:15:58.009 --> 00:16:02.250 received? And then what's in it to them to do something about it. 244 00:16:03.090 --> 00:16:04.960 But you don't maybe ask for that right up front. So maybe you start 245 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:08.320 by offering something of value. Maybe you say hey, listen, you know, 246 00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:12.080 you know we've noticed that. You know you're I don't know, like 247 00:16:12.200 --> 00:16:17.159 you notice what kind of content they're they're checking out, or you say, 248 00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:18.909 like we've noticed that a lot of people that are hiring more people with these 249 00:16:18.990 --> 00:16:22.070 roles, which I see on your website. You know, their tend to 250 00:16:22.149 --> 00:16:26.590 focus. Means they're focusing on more enterprise prospects and we've got some best practices 251 00:16:26.669 --> 00:16:32.940 that help companies sort of increase their predictability of drive, of engaging more complex 252 00:16:33.139 --> 00:16:36.059 long term buying cycles. Like, is there some kind of a give you 253 00:16:36.139 --> 00:16:40.220 can give someone without asking for anything return the starts to build some trust and 254 00:16:40.580 --> 00:16:44.340 credibility with you? If they see that I actually was pretty valuable, I 255 00:16:44.419 --> 00:16:45.940 really appreciate that they well, yea happy to you know, this is a 256 00:16:45.980 --> 00:16:48.450 piece that we work for a lot of people. We'd be happy to customize 257 00:16:48.490 --> 00:16:51.730 this to you if you'd want to share a little bit of kind of what 258 00:16:51.809 --> 00:16:53.929 you're dealing with. You know, no, no, you know no no 259 00:16:55.090 --> 00:16:59.250 strings attached and sort of like have a conversation with that prospect to customize that 260 00:16:59.370 --> 00:17:02.600 message. Not only is that give them some media value, it gives you 261 00:17:02.679 --> 00:17:04.640 a lot of evidence and clues for how you can customize your pitch of how 262 00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:08.039 you can help or not. Right some of those people may not need your 263 00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:11.839 help right now. You know this is you know, we call these the 264 00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:15.589 sales funnels and not sales cylinders for a reason. That's some prospects aren't ready 265 00:17:15.630 --> 00:17:19.029 to move forward right. But I think you know your ability to lean in 266 00:17:19.269 --> 00:17:22.990 understand your customer, to understand what they're interested in, to understand what they 267 00:17:23.029 --> 00:17:26.509 need. I think, especially in this time right now. wrote about this 268 00:17:26.549 --> 00:17:27.990 last week. I mean this is and this is hard, but you know, 269 00:17:29.069 --> 00:17:33.420 I think we're seeing so many these messages from brands that say, you 270 00:17:33.500 --> 00:17:36.740 know, we're thinking about you in these difficult times. But I think those 271 00:17:36.779 --> 00:17:41.059 were conceived six weeks ago and it might landed a little better, but the 272 00:17:41.220 --> 00:17:45.769 creative development cycle and money companies take so long that it just finally got out 273 00:17:45.809 --> 00:17:49.210 the door. Yeah, you need to be thinking right now about what your 274 00:17:49.289 --> 00:17:52.650 if you you need to understand right now what your customer is going to be 275 00:17:52.690 --> 00:17:56.849 thinking about and asking for two weeks from now. Like we're no longer in 276 00:17:57.569 --> 00:18:00.799 a scenario where you can be thinking months or quarters in advance. You need 277 00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:06.599 to be thinking weeks in advance and speeding up your development cycle so that at 278 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:10.920 the precise moment when your customer starts wondering about something or needing something, you 279 00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:12.869 are there with the answer, you're there with the content, you're there with 280 00:18:14.029 --> 00:18:15.990 ideas to support them. And some of that's going to be a little bit 281 00:18:15.990 --> 00:18:18.269 of guessing, like last week I brought up with the client. Said, 282 00:18:18.269 --> 00:18:22.190 you know, we wouldn't we always talk about the idea of the sales kickoff. 283 00:18:22.829 --> 00:18:25.869 Maybe we should think about a rebound kickoff. Like what would a rebound 284 00:18:25.869 --> 00:18:29.180 kickoff look like for a company that said, listen, like this has been 285 00:18:29.220 --> 00:18:32.380 a rough month, but I think we've got a path forward. We've got 286 00:18:32.420 --> 00:18:34.660 to do go to market strategy, or we've pivoted our product, or let's 287 00:18:34.700 --> 00:18:38.380 organize our team around this and let's just kick that off in a formal, 288 00:18:38.420 --> 00:18:41.250 exciting, high energy way, the same way we would in the sales kickoff. 289 00:18:41.569 --> 00:18:45.450 Right, seeings and companies do things now that are a format of that. 290 00:18:47.170 --> 00:18:49.250 So how you know if you're a consultant to how do you, how 291 00:18:49.289 --> 00:18:52.289 can you help create that for someone? How do you help, you know, 292 00:18:52.369 --> 00:18:56.440 help someone customize what that would look like based on how they are pivoting? 293 00:18:56.119 --> 00:19:00.240 So I think just you know, the better you understand your hottise, 294 00:19:00.279 --> 00:19:03.119 the better you understand what their challenge is are, the better you can start 295 00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:08.920 to anticipate those needs and right and and provide that continual value. So somebody's 296 00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:12.430 listening to this show and I guarantee you at least one person has said, 297 00:19:12.430 --> 00:19:17.470 Oh, we've already done that. We created by our personas, and I'm 298 00:19:17.470 --> 00:19:22.349 a big fan of personas, but I know you and I've talked before in 299 00:19:22.470 --> 00:19:27.059 the way that they are developed so often is again what we do, and 300 00:19:27.140 --> 00:19:30.140 you see it through the content that's produced off of them. It's all about 301 00:19:30.140 --> 00:19:34.259 us. So we take a very internal view to the creation of personas. 302 00:19:34.660 --> 00:19:40.250 What are you seeing out there and what two or three things would you advise 303 00:19:40.369 --> 00:19:42.049 somebody to say? Look, if you're going to take the effort at the 304 00:19:42.130 --> 00:19:47.289 time and the investment to build personas, do it this way, if you're 305 00:19:47.289 --> 00:19:48.650 going to do it, because you've said twice now, and I like it 306 00:19:48.769 --> 00:19:52.000 right, there's a difference between doing things right and doing it right now, 307 00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:56.880 and paraphrasing, but what would you what would you change if to income? 308 00:19:57.039 --> 00:20:02.440 Most companies that are doing personas well. Persons are good start. But for 309 00:20:02.599 --> 00:20:06.480 most companies, personas are a good start. To eventually get to three things. 310 00:20:06.680 --> 00:20:10.789 One is understanding the buying committee, the Group of people, the Group 311 00:20:10.829 --> 00:20:14.190 of Personas that together are going to make a decision to do something. And 312 00:20:14.390 --> 00:20:17.710 some of those people might be decisionmakers, someone might be influencers, some might 313 00:20:17.750 --> 00:20:19.910 be users, so might be detractors. I mean there may be people that 314 00:20:19.990 --> 00:20:23.299 are that are going to get their gating, you know, change, and 315 00:20:23.500 --> 00:20:26.819 the need to be able to address them as well. So there's the one 316 00:20:26.940 --> 00:20:30.299 is the committee of buyers to is the journey they go through, right, 317 00:20:30.500 --> 00:20:37.130 so there's stages of education and commitment and decisionmaking that the buying committee goes through. 318 00:20:37.130 --> 00:20:41.849 So'll understand, you know, a persona in motion, so to speak. 319 00:20:41.250 --> 00:20:45.529 What does that look like and how you address them differently a different stages 320 00:20:45.609 --> 00:20:48.450 of that journey. And three is something that I hear a lot of people 321 00:20:48.450 --> 00:20:49.839 talk about is the idea of buy your cohor. So let's say you've got 322 00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:55.880 eight people in are involved in enterprise decision. Like at certain points of that 323 00:20:55.960 --> 00:21:00.799 buying journey there maybe subsets of that buying committee that have to make certain small 324 00:21:00.920 --> 00:21:06.269 guess decisions to get the big guest decision to move forward. So organizing those 325 00:21:06.309 --> 00:21:11.630 personas into committees, mobilizing them into buying journeys and then understanding the milestones along 326 00:21:11.670 --> 00:21:17.349 the way that require those subsets of personas to say yes, that can give 327 00:21:17.349 --> 00:21:23.579 you a pretty decent blueprint of how to operationalize that entire ecosystem, like what 328 00:21:23.779 --> 00:21:27.180 to say when, to which group of people to get them to continue to 329 00:21:27.220 --> 00:21:32.819 move forward. Yeah, because I see bees done some really good research around 330 00:21:32.819 --> 00:21:34.569 that. I know it's a little data, but not too bad. That 331 00:21:34.690 --> 00:21:38.809 says, I think it was. It's thirty eight percent of the way through 332 00:21:38.890 --> 00:21:44.170 the journey is when the buying committee falls apart and sticks with status quo. 333 00:21:44.930 --> 00:21:48.039 Nobody can agree on anything right, and I'm glad you brought that up because 334 00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:52.160 I know when I do a workshop I say it's really important for us to 335 00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:56.279 understand the journey, as you mentioned and the personas. But where is the 336 00:21:56.519 --> 00:22:00.710 involvement of each of those personas along the journey? Because not only can I, 337 00:22:00.990 --> 00:22:04.390 and I like the term cohort. Now I can I find that, 338 00:22:04.509 --> 00:22:11.069 but then I'm not creating content for roles or functions or people that aren't involved 339 00:22:11.109 --> 00:22:15.859 in that stage of the process. Right, makes my job a lot easier 340 00:22:15.940 --> 00:22:18.539 versus this just go be a content factory and produce produced, produced. You 341 00:22:18.619 --> 00:22:22.539 got to know who the heck you're producing for. Well, and you know, 342 00:22:22.900 --> 00:22:26.259 we used to do buy or buying journey mapping. That would take that 343 00:22:26.380 --> 00:22:30.809 buying committee down the Lord left hand side of a spreadsheet and have the buying 344 00:22:30.809 --> 00:22:33.650 journey stages across the top and have a message or a theme for everybody, 345 00:22:33.650 --> 00:22:37.690 every stage and every cell. But that's more than the most organizations need. 346 00:22:37.849 --> 00:22:41.210 I mean you've got like, for instance, we did some research last year 347 00:22:41.289 --> 00:22:45.440 on how CMOS are a typically involved in buying processes and their organization. That's 348 00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:48.240 sort of a built it's a reverse bilkerve. It's like they're involved at the 349 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:52.200 beginning when it comes to agenda setting and involved the end when it's justify the 350 00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:56.759 decision right, and so you don't have to message to them in the middle 351 00:22:56.880 --> 00:23:00.990 because they're not involved. That's right. So if you understand those stages in 352 00:23:00.069 --> 00:23:04.950 those sub groups, you've got a more precise set of messages like this is 353 00:23:04.990 --> 00:23:07.549 not meant to be like it's through a channels like this. Is the message. 354 00:23:07.750 --> 00:23:11.109 The channels a whole different story. It might be your sales or put 355 00:23:11.150 --> 00:23:12.940 might be a Webinar, might be a podcast like this. So but to 356 00:23:12.980 --> 00:23:18.779 understand who you're speaking to, when and why can can help move that journey 357 00:23:18.819 --> 00:23:21.460 forward. And again, it's probably going to move a little slower than you 358 00:23:21.579 --> 00:23:26.140 want, but three steps are faster than one in most cases to ultimately get 359 00:23:26.140 --> 00:23:27.650 to where you are. And I hadn't heard that, CEB STAP, but 360 00:23:27.690 --> 00:23:30.650 it's totally makes sense. And you we see it all the time, is 361 00:23:30.690 --> 00:23:36.529 that people don't choose whose. People usually don't choose another solution, they just 362 00:23:36.730 --> 00:23:41.289 choose to stay the same. Right, right, exactly. Yeah, that's 363 00:23:41.289 --> 00:23:45.079 the biggest competitor to, I would say, just about everybody's status quo. 364 00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:48.960 Right. So if individuals are listening and they're buying in and they're saying, 365 00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:52.480 yeah, we've got a we've got to make some changes or I have to 366 00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:56.789 go to my executive get them to listen to this, to what Matt saying 367 00:23:56.910 --> 00:24:00.349 on the Podcast, and then start to make the change, because now I've 368 00:24:00.390 --> 00:24:03.390 evangelized. where? Where would they start? What are two or three things, 369 00:24:03.670 --> 00:24:07.670 manageable things they can start to do? And it doesn't mean they're going 370 00:24:07.670 --> 00:24:11.099 to have overnight success, but what or two or three things they can start 371 00:24:11.140 --> 00:24:15.299 to do to kind of change the culture and the tide and the approach, 372 00:24:15.779 --> 00:24:19.619 to get more human in their marketing and sales. I would see the first 373 00:24:19.700 --> 00:24:22.980 thing that was going to help with a lot of things is just to get 374 00:24:23.450 --> 00:24:27.609 leadership on board with a customer centric approach, not as an operational thing yet, 375 00:24:29.210 --> 00:24:32.450 but to get, you know, to sort of help start to change 376 00:24:32.450 --> 00:24:37.089 the mindset from a product center through a customer centric organization and Evangelize to your 377 00:24:37.130 --> 00:24:42.000 leadership or to your board why that's important and showcase examples of where it has 378 00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:45.440 benefit other companies. And I bring that I mean it's that is a that 379 00:24:45.599 --> 00:24:48.119 is not necessarily an easy thing to do. But, like you can start 380 00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:53.390 by having the conversation tomorrow, you can start by starting the conversation tomorrow and 381 00:24:55.509 --> 00:24:57.309 everything else you do from that point. If you have a CEO of she 382 00:24:57.470 --> 00:25:00.710 believes that this is a better way of doing business, if you have a 383 00:25:00.829 --> 00:25:04.670 board that recognizes that the long term value of the business is tied to doing 384 00:25:04.750 --> 00:25:08.579 this like that may be a challenge to sort of or take every timely to 385 00:25:08.660 --> 00:25:12.140 get to, but every other decision you make, every other thing you try 386 00:25:12.180 --> 00:25:15.460 to do is can be supported from the top and it's going to make it 387 00:25:15.500 --> 00:25:18.619 a lot easier to do. The other thing I would just tactically do as 388 00:25:18.619 --> 00:25:21.019 well is that this is even work. This is just on the other side 389 00:25:21.019 --> 00:25:23.369 of the tactics. Go through all of your written materials, all of your 390 00:25:23.410 --> 00:25:26.890 scripts, and figure out how to replace the eyes in the wheeze at the 391 00:25:26.930 --> 00:25:32.890 beginning of the letter, every beginning of the sentence with you. Go Watch 392 00:25:33.569 --> 00:25:37.640 old videos of Steve Jobs introducing products and even watch more recent videos of Tim 393 00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:42.119 Cook and Count How many times they say you. I mean, I think 394 00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:45.920 you know, you mentioned to Managin, Dave, Dave Lewis it Demandin does 395 00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:49.630 a phenomenal job talking about the psychology of marketing and you. It's one of 396 00:25:49.670 --> 00:25:52.670 those words that just makes you pay attention, that Lee you lean in. 397 00:25:52.910 --> 00:25:56.750 When you hear the word you in a conversation or read the word you, 398 00:25:56.230 --> 00:26:00.950 your brain thinks that someone's about to say something for you write. It's a 399 00:26:00.990 --> 00:26:04.220 simple but powerful thing, and little things like that can make a big difference 400 00:26:06.059 --> 00:26:10.660 of just keeping and earning a prospect attention on ongoing basis. Yeah, you 401 00:26:10.819 --> 00:26:14.220 said, when you said that. It brings me to I used to show 402 00:26:14.220 --> 00:26:18.130 it quite often when I spoke. There was a Honda commercial and I think 403 00:26:18.170 --> 00:26:22.930 it was back in two thousand and thirteen, and it starts with the word 404 00:26:23.009 --> 00:26:33.400 you and it's the entire commercial is you walk away saying that the engineers at 405 00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:40.039 Honda built a car based on their knowledge of me, and it was things 406 00:26:40.119 --> 00:26:45.000 like, we know that you sometimes have to work late to get away from 407 00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:48.190 work, and it shows a lady in a car, clearly at home and 408 00:26:48.309 --> 00:26:52.029 her garage, how wrapping up a conference call. It' says things like you, 409 00:26:52.990 --> 00:26:56.230 we know that you care for people. On the show's a son with 410 00:26:56.309 --> 00:27:03.059 his elderly father, and it's all these different things about and every scenario they 411 00:27:03.099 --> 00:27:07.180 paint in this commercial you can relate to at least one of them. And 412 00:27:07.299 --> 00:27:11.700 then the commercial says we built a car for you, and actually it's it's 413 00:27:11.380 --> 00:27:15.849 when you watch the commercial it's almost an emotional experience, hmm, and I 414 00:27:15.970 --> 00:27:22.490 think it is one of the best examples of a company who said we're going 415 00:27:22.529 --> 00:27:27.529 to put our customer front and Center and designer content. Designer are visuals, 416 00:27:27.609 --> 00:27:34.559 design our creative and then design the product around them, and it's pretty impressive 417 00:27:34.599 --> 00:27:40.079 and it's I'll I'll send you the link and I'll make sure that we put 418 00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:42.680 it in the show notes as well. So, Matt, we are coming 419 00:27:42.680 --> 00:27:48.029 up on time. I appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule 420 00:27:48.230 --> 00:27:52.630 to share your smart if people want to follow up with you, where do 421 00:27:52.670 --> 00:27:56.789 they find you? You can find me our website, signs, marking the 422 00:27:56.869 --> 00:28:00.140 signs. Like to catch up Marktingcom? I'm all of our contents up there 423 00:28:00.259 --> 00:28:03.059 for free. Blog post, white papers, some lot of good research. 424 00:28:03.579 --> 00:28:07.940 Twitter at hines marketing. I'm just Matt, and Matt at Hines Marketingcom email 425 00:28:08.019 --> 00:28:11.740 me and look forward to here and for folks, and I would highly recommend 426 00:28:11.740 --> 00:28:15.490 you to do is. If I was from Boston, I would say your 427 00:28:15.529 --> 00:28:22.369 wicked smile and I appreciate your friendship. I appreciate always having the opportunity to 428 00:28:22.410 --> 00:28:26.130 learn from you and keep up the good work and I hope you and yours 429 00:28:26.450 --> 00:28:32.640 stay safe. Thank you. Man Youtube. Are you on Linkedin? That's 430 00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:34.920 a stupid question. Of course you're on linked it. Here's who fish. 431 00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:40.720 We've gone all in the platform. Multiple people from our team are creating content 432 00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:44.509 there. Sometimes it's a funny gift for me and other times it's a micro 433 00:28:44.589 --> 00:28:48.630 video or a slide deck, and sometimes it's just a regular old status update 434 00:28:48.710 --> 00:28:52.950 that shares their unique point of view on BB marketing leadership or their job function. 435 00:28:53.430 --> 00:28:57.700 We're posting that content through their personal profile, not our company page, 436 00:28:57.900 --> 00:29:02.900 and it would warm my heart and soul if you connected with each of our 437 00:29:02.940 --> 00:29:07.059 evangelists. will be adding more down the road, but from now you should 438 00:29:07.059 --> 00:29:11.089 connect with will read our coo, Kelsey Montgomery, our creative director, Dan 439 00:29:11.210 --> 00:29:15.569 Sanchez, our director of audience growth, Logan Lyles, are Director of partnerships, 440 00:29:15.769 --> 00:29:18.890 and me, James Carberry. We are having a whole lot of fun 441 00:29:18.890 --> 00:29:22.210 on Linkedin pretty much every single day and we'd love for you to be a 442 00:29:22.289 --> 00:29:22.569 part of it.