Transcript
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Hey there, this is James Carberry, founder of sweet fish media and one
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of the cohosts of this show.
For the last year and a half I've
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been working on my very first book. In the book I share the three
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part framework we've used as the foundation
for our growth here at sweetfish. Now
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there are lots of companies that everased
a bunch of money and have grown insanely
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fast, and we featured a lot
of them here on the show. We've
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decided to bootstrap our business, which
usually equates to pretty slow growth, but
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using the strategy outlined in the book, we are on pace to be one
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of inks fastest growing companies in two
thousand and twenty. The book is called
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content based networking, how to instantly
connect with anyone you want to know.
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If you're a fan of audiobooks like
me, you can find the book on
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audible, or if you like physical
books, you can also find it on
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Amazon. Just search content based networking
or James Carberry, CR be aary,
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inaudible or Amazon and it should pop
right up. All right, let's get
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into the show. Welcome to the
B tob growth show, the human to
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humans segment. My name is Carlos
Hidalgo. I am the host of this
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segment, the CEO of Vision C
X and the author of the UN American
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dream. Today I am absolutely delighted
to have a colleague and a longtime friend
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and someone who I just admire on
the podcast. Artis all the artis.
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Welcome to the show. Thank Carlos. Thanks so much for having me.
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Absolutely, as you said before,
we want on air. You and I
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could talk about anything for a very
long time, so I'm just thrilled that
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we get the chance to do this
and have people listen to listen to us.
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But before we get going, for
those who have been living under a
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rock for the last decade plus,
let us know who you are, what
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you do and how you help your
clients. Are Absolutely I have my own
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firm called marketing interactions, and what
I do is help be to be companies
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with complex sales develop personas and persona
driven content marketing strategy to convert prospects into
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buyers and convinced customers to stay so
all the way through the life cycle.
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And been doing it for a long
time, as you know, and I've
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also written two books about it.
I love that and I love what you
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just said. Is through the life
cycle I was in a conversation the other
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day with somebody said I hate that
term life cycle because it connotates that there's
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an end, and I think that's
just a term we use. But talk
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to me about that. How do
you how do you see? Well,
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before even that, I don't want
to assume that everybody knows what a persona
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is, and I use that term
the other day and somebody said, what
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are you talking about, and they
were in BTB. So, much to
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my surprise, we've been talking about
it for a long time. Explain that
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in detail. What is a persona
as you define it for your client?
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It's yeah, well, think of
our persona as a composite sketch of a
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target audience. And what you really
want to call out about that target audience
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is all their commonalities, right,
so what do they all have in common
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with each other and regards to their
objectives, problems they are encountering, those
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kinds of things, because the commonalities
will get you the attention of the widest
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swath of those people, right,
and it helps you humanize right, understanding
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them, putting stuff in context for
them. And so that's that's basically what
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what a persona is, and we
need them in order to inform our content
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and and, you know, our
marketing, our storylines. Thanks for describing
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that and I love that definition.
So how do those or let me ask
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the question a different way. Do
those personas take on different shapes or dimensions
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through the life cycle? Yes,
yes, they do. So picture it
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this way. When you are trying
to convert a prospect into a customer,
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they're trying to solve a problem,
right, that your solution hopefully helps themselves.
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Well, once they become a customer, theoretically that problems now solved,
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right, because they bought your solution. So now how do you deliver even
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more value? What do they want
then, and with be to be quite
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often, the people we sell to
are not the people use in your product
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and not the ones that are going
to say yes, renew this or no,
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get me something else for God's Sakes. So you got to look at
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it from a different perspective, right, status quo is different, very well
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put. So really it's not just
understanding, and I see this mistake made
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where, Hey, we have our
buyer personas and then it's like, okay,
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they bought something and handsoff. So
are you seeing that as well?
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We're a lot of companies are missing
out on nurturing those relationships of their current
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customers and expanding that share of wallet. Oh, absolutely. You know,
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it's funny. I am the next
book I'm working on it is about retention,
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given the change in business models.
I mean, think about it.
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When I started in this business,
software was a custom install right. There
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was no such thing class. You
can pay a subscription to anything, and
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so it was a big, heavy
duty contract with heavy duty maintenance and whatever.
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So you were locked you locked in
your customers for three to five years
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or whatever. Right, you're lucky
if you could lock them in for thirty
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days. So you need to start
talking. Are Looking at not just talking
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about how do we keep the customers
we have? How do we expand those
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accounts? How do we turn them
into advocates? They help us get more
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customers. Right, and this is
something that is kind of new territory for
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a lot of marketers because we become
so silod especially in the enterprise companies.
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I tend to work with that.
You know, the right hand doesn't know
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what the left hand is doing him. Considering that we start the story,
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marketing should be completing the story.
You know, and it ever is completed.
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It's ongoing, right, because if
your customers are actively using your software,
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growing continuing to find more value,
why wouldn't they switch to something else
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that gives them the promise of that? So remembered I first did a session
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at content marketing world, I want
to say it was in two thousand and
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thirteen, about retention and nobody showed
up. And then in two thousand and
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eighteen I did session on retention at
marketing props and the room was standing room
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only. So that if that gives
you an idea of you know, what's
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changed in the focus there. Yeah, I that is so interesting and I
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hadn't really thought about it, especially
in the tech context. I remember the
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terms ripp and replace with the the
software install and so now it's to your
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point, it's just okay, we
just get new logging credentials and upload some
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of our data and we can be
off to the races. So I think
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that's that's really important to for us
to think about from our retention, but
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in terms of retention as well,
how to marketing and sales people, once
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I have a customer or acquire a
new customer, beyond just proving the value,
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what are some of the things they
can do to deepen that relationship because,
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as you will put it's about the
humanizing of that individual or individuals account.
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How can we go about doing that? Well, there's there's a lot
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of ways and and I'll tell you
a discussion that I just had with a
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client that we're working on, is
that a lot of their prospects were really
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bought in moving forward and then all
of a sudden, man cold feet and
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they just put the brakes on.
And what we've found out was we're telling
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them how easy implementation and deployment is
and what we're talking about here has change
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management right, and all of them
were going yet, too good to be
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true. Probably is too good to
be true, this is going to suck,
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we're not doing it, and so, you know, they would just
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stop. And so we had to
put together some material, some content,
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some customer testimonials and stories about really
what we say about implementation. It's three
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steps, it's, you know,
not difficult. We provide training, you
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know, and how the onboarding works
and prove to them that over ninety percent
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adoption inside thirty days could happen.
It was really a possibility, you know,
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and a norm for many of my
clients, customers, and all of
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a sudden they just kind of breathe
a sigh of relief and one okay,
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this is going to work and they
started moving forward again. So right there,
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you know. And and now what
we've done, as expanded or enhanced
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the onboarding programs, to really hold
their hands and get, you know,
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the end users to adopt that solution
and figure out how to get them to
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on board as a matter of course, like how does it fit in their
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daily workflow? You know, and
this happens to be a sales enablement platform,
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so working with sales or ups who
don't want to change into what they're
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doing is interesting. But it works
tremendously well and the tools are impactful and
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they make a difference and so,
you know, but it's just looking at
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each step and stage. What are
the hold ups? What are the possible
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obstacles? What's the pushback from the
end user? How do you prove to
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them this is going to be valuable
to them, you know, and then
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once they get, you know,
using it, what parts of it aren't
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they using? You know, you
see, and all use marketers as an
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example, because I just thought research
on this that if you look at a
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marketing text dec how much of that
functionality is actually being used? Not much.
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They're using marketing automation is an email
blaster, for example, when there
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are so many other things you can
use that technology for. And so how
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do you help them get more use
out of it? How do you help
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them apply it? Everybody's busy.
How do you make it easy? You
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know, and so you have to
keep looking at what's next. And once
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they've solved that original problem, that
can either introduce new problems or open it
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up for them to solve additional problems
that they hadn't even thought to tackle before
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they got your solution. So it's
always about what's next, right. So
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this is a very brief question with
probably a really big answer. Why aren't
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more brands doing this? Because it's
hard. Hey, it takes effort and
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you know I mean it can be
daunting. But here I'll give you an
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example. So I acquired a client
when I spoke at connects in Toronto last
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year and the first thing they said
to me was they wanted personas there was
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a new content strategy team that have
been created their attach company, but there
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was a mandate that they were not
allowed to talk to the sales team or
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customers. That's hopeful. Yeah,
so, you know. So we had
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to RELEA, sit down and think, okay, how are we going to
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do this? You know, what
can we do? And so, you
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know, through the course of that
work, what I ended up doing was
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creating different types of persona where the
lift was a little easier in some ways,
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depending on what you use them for. So I'll give you an example.
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So, for example, one of
the things everybody says is we need
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to see sweet persona. You know, we've got to reach the CXO.
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And Nine Times out of ten,
no, you don't, because they're not
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talking to you and they're not buying
it right. It's not strategic enough.
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They've delegated to their team, which
is why they have a team. We
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need to reach the team. WHO's
on the team? And so but then
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again, that C Xo may show
up for the vendor presentation and they may
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be involved in the when the whoever's
evaluating presents the business case, you know
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in the request for approval to buy
it. And so with that kind of
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a person maybe you need one or
two assets that are going to help build
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brand awareness. So they're don't like, who the heck is that bring them
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into the room, you know,
something like that. But you don't need
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to create an entire storyline for them
because they're not going to read it.
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So what's the minimum biable persona for
that, for example? And so what
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happens with something like a sea sweet
persona? Thank goodness, they're interviewed all
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the time. They speak at conferences, they you know, join round up
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posts and give their thoughts and all
of that. So you can actually get
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what they're saying, the words they
use and that kind of thing by doing
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research into, you know, what's
being what they're saying, how they're being
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interviewed, things like that. So
it is possible to get to some level
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of personalization. That helps with relevance
and resonance with their content, but it
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takes some effort and you have to
know what you're looking for so you know
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what it's. But it was a
you know, things like that. Companies
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just put stumbling blocks in their team's
way and it's like how are you supposed
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to get to personalization and understanding your
customers if you can't talk to him and
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he can't even talk to the sales
team, who are the people who are
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talking to him. So the other
thing we just go to customers success,
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because they hadn't put them off limits
right, and so we listen to some
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calls and we talked to them and
and that was helpful. But, for
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God's sakes, you know me.
Do you want to set them up to
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fail? Well, I you know, I hear similar things, so I
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guess where my head goes is.
But our customers now are demanding this because
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we have all the information we could
ever want in the palm of our hands
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via our smartphones. So I mean
it is not to sound too dramatic.
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Is this really going to separate the
customers that thrive versus the customers that die?
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For the brand, I'm sorry,
the brands that that thrive versus the
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brands that die? I would say
yes, and here's why. Gartner did
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some research that I've thought was really
interesting. And so it used to be
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that, you know, there's all
this content out there and and it's all
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terrible, right, that was that
was the big challenge for a long time.
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Well, that's changed, right,
we've learned how to create content that
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buyers are willing to say is high
quality. I thout, you know,
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high quality the problem is is not
high value because it's not relevant. So,
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while I think it was, and
I'm guessing here without looking at the
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stats, but I think it's like
eighty percent of buyers say we come into
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high quality content during our buying process
and seventy some percent of them say,
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but it's not relevant to us.
So that's the problem. We can produce
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all the high quality content we want
if it doesn't do the job and it
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doesn't speak to our prospects, what
good is it? Right? And I
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even, as part of that,
put include in that the random emails that
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you and I and everybody else gets, about four or five a day,
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that tells me what they think they
can do for me and then ask me
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for a fifteen minutes to go through
a demo. Now I get more than
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four or five in the problem is
what they tell me they can do for
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me half the time is what my
firm does right even look exactly. So
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you know, at the beginning,
when I asked you to kind of give
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some background on yourself, you used
to turn which I really loved, which
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was humanize. And when I think
about humanizing, my head and my thoughts
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go to empathy, which seems to
be all the rage right now in especially
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in B to be a lot of
people are talking about empathetic marketing and creating
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empathetic content. What are you seeing
in that regard? Is it right now
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just a buzz word or brands actually
doing it? Is the starting place for
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that, creating those personas kind of
kind of give me your thoughts on that.
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Well, one of the things that
I see often, and goes to
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empathy, goes to content, goes
to a lot of things, is that
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when you don't do the research,
you tend to base those things on what
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resonates with you. So how many
times have we sat in a meeting and
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somebody speaks up and says we can't
write that white paper because I'd never read
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it? All Right, I'm not
the customer, you know what I mean?
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I'm not that the target, so
you know. But we tend to
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take what we think and transfer that
onto our customers because we don't know any
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better. And so and even people
with personas will do that because they'll forget
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that the biggest problem with a persona
is that companies create them but then they
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don't know what to do with them, so they don't use them. So
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they say, okay, check the
box and they put them in the in
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the file folder somewhere on a drive, never to be seen again, you
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know, and so they don't understand
how to apply those insights. And you
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know, my favorite pet peeve is
the people that are are the people that
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are saying, now that we have
ai and intent data, we don't need
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to do this anymore because the data
will build the personas for us, it
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will tell us exactly what they're doing. And I'm kind of like, yeah,
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but you won't know why right,
you won't know what they thought about
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it and you won't know what drove
them to look at it in the first
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place, and you won't understand how
to even if you can identify a topic
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they're interested in, you won't understand
how to talk to him about that topic
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because you don't understand their viewpoint about
it right, or the problem they're facing.
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And so empathy is really about the
thing that persona's help with. Empathy
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is really using the phrases and the
words that your customers would use themselves,
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understanding how they feel about this stuff
they're going through, you know, because
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marketers tend to say, Oh God, this is an urgent problem. The
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buyer has to solve this and then
you talk to the buyers and are kind
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of like, no, that's not
the urgency. The urgencies this other thing
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over here, you know, and
I'm going to lose promotion if I don't
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fix that. But this other thing, yeah, that's a nice side benefit,
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but no, that's not it,
you know. And so we need
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to understand the degrees of nuance,
you know, and really what what is
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causation, you know, versus just
what it looks like. And so,
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you know, the problem with empathy
when you don't really understand your buyers is
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what are you basing it on?
Something that appears to be empathetic to you
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could come off as an affront to
someone else. You know, seating a
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piece of content that one of my
guy on a team for one of my
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clients wrote and he was trying to
do the stick and carrot thing, but
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yet this stick part of the content
was so negative and talking down to the
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buyer. I was just like,
you can't do that. It's the lack
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of perspect there's no empathy for what
this person is coming through. You're making
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flippant negative comments that if I was, you know, if you were sitting
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across from me and I was that
prospect, I'd slap you. I would
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like to see that. No,
you wouldn't, but you know what I'm
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saying, though. It's like,
we won't we he thought he was being
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cute and doing something that would,
you know, create curiosity or attract attention
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or whatever, and I said,
know, you're insulting people, and he
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didn't see it that way and I
said you don't understand what they're going through.
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This is serious. This is like
we're asking a customer a buy or
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to spend, you know, four
hundredzero dollars to solve this problem and you're
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making a negative joke out of it
and putting them down. Excuse me,
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you know we can't be so it's
context, you know. I mean there's
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there's we've gotten. If we're going
to be empathetic, we have to have
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the right context and understanding, and
I think there's a total lack of context
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in a lot of what we do
as marketers. Yeah, I don't disagree
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with that. I see that as
well, in for many reasons. What
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role are you seeing executives play?
Because some of what I hear is I
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hear what you're saying I agree,
but you don't understand the pressure we're under
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to get the stuff done. So
what do you say to those executives who
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have unrealistic expectation that hey, it's
been thirty days, how come were this
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stuff isn't done? I know I
hear the same things. I just sat
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in a meeting about it this morning
where it was all about. It was
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kind of like, you know,
you have to you cannot force people into
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a demo or whatever, because his
thing was, I don't care where they
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are in the buying process, get
them to take a demo. I like,
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okay, yeah, let's just,
you know, Lind them up against
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the wall, get the rifles out
and say Demo or die. To write.
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You know, I mean you can, you've got to think about what
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you're doing. But the thing about
it is is that, in my experience,
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what I'm seeing is executives create that
issue for themselves. And what I
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mean about that is there under a
lot of pressure to present numbers that are
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ridiculous in my opinion, like,
okay, we create an x amount of
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opportunities last year, we're going to
five x that this year. Really was
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what what created that exponential growth factor? You know, then they hold everybody's
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feet to the fire for this number
they made up to look good to the
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executive team, which they have no
prayer in Hell of meeting, you know.
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And and then it's just a lot
of pressure for everyone. And so
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but the other thing is I don't
think a lot of executives have ever actually
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either been in the trenches doing this
work or have ever done it this way
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since buying or buyers took control of
the situation. You know what I mean?
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Yeah, because body is changed tremendous
amount in the last will have twelve
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years since I've been doing this this
probably work in consulting has changed a whole
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lot and it used to be a
lot easier. It's not anymore. And
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buyer expectations have changed. They've taken
control, so much more information is available.
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It's not the same as it used
to be and I think a lot
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of executives haven't been in the trenches
with this since that happened. Yeah,
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I agree with that as well and
I have a I have a theory about
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that that I know we've talked about, but I agree with that. So
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people who are listening her like yes, yes, yes, yes, that
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I'm sitting here nodding my head,
who say hey, I want to get
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started or I know I have before
I get started, I have an uphill
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battle of convincing my sales leadership and
my executive team that we have it's imperative
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that we do this. What,
two three things can they do to just
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get the ball rolling? Well,
it's tough. It depends on, you
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know, what your executive team is
hung up on. One of the things
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that I've found really useful is getting
the sales team involved because you know,
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companies are hanging their revenue goals on
that sales team and if you can get
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one of the first things I do
when I'm doing a persona project just go
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talk to the sales team and find
out who are they talking to, who
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do they want to talk to,
what are they hearing, all of those
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things, and then get them pumped
up and excited about the kind of insights
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we're going to bring them back from
this persona project and then get behind it.
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They help you get, you know, conversations with customers everything else,
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and then you have to follow through
on that. But of course what they
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want is better qualified opportunities to pursue
right more sales. Yeah, and so,
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but if you can join forces.
Is Why it drives me nuts that
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we're still having this stupid alignment conversation. What has been going on for twenty,
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thirty years now at least. Can
we not get over ourselves? And
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so if we can join up with
sales and get them excited about it,
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we can show impact, you know, and that sales is actually using the
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stuff that we're creating to help them
win, then marketing gets, you know,
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latitude or license, if you will, to pursue more of that.
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And so sometimes I've even done pilot
projects at companies. It's a just let's
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see what we can impact in thirty
days or sixty days, and the only
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way to do that is go after, you know, the low hanging fruit,
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to people who are already in buying
mode. You're not going to generate
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a lead and convert it in thirty
or sixty days when your sales process is
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nine months. So what can you
do to actually show impact that gets buy
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in and loosens those purse strings,
you know, and gets people on board.
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And it's all about showing what's possible
and you have to figure out how
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to do it somehow. The other
way. I did it once was we
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actually created looked at my clients boss
as a persona and we did kind of
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I call it the water trip torture
method. We created an email campaign where
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she was sending an emails building her
case. We build personas and by treating
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him as a persona, he actually
finally replied to her and an email and
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said are you profiling me? And
he started to understand the difference in the
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emails and and we actually got approval
to do a POC and that worked and
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then he gave approval to build out
the whole thing. But you know I
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mean, there's extreme methods. We've
had to the right point. I got
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thank God he didn't opt out of
the emails. Right. Put You on
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a black lust. Well, artith
we as I said at the beginning,
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and what we talked about off air. I know you and I could talk
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about this and many other things for
a long time, but we don't have
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that time, unfortunately. For those
who are listening who want to follow up
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with you understand more about you.
Your prolific writer. You've got lots of
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00:25:14.420 --> 00:25:17.900
great thoughts on this. Where can
they find you? Well, they can
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look me on up on linkedin under
my name Artith Alb and they can visit
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00:25:22.849 --> 00:25:29.609
my website at marketing Interactionscom or they
can follow follow me on twitter at artist
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00:25:29.930 --> 00:25:33.970
two one awesome and for those listening, I highly recommend all of those things.
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I have learned a ton from artis. She is a wealth of knowledge
356
00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:44.759
and just makes things practical. So, artist, thanks again for joining the
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be to be gross show. It
was a pleasure absolutely. Thanks so much
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for having me. You bet take
care of everyone. This is the B
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00:25:51.509 --> 00:25:55.269
to be gross show, human,
human segment. We hope you have enjoyed
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00:25:55.390 --> 00:26:00.029
this and go follow artist by her
book. You're learning on on how you
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00:26:00.190 --> 00:26:07.740
can make your marketing more human to
human. Have a great day. We
362
00:26:07.980 --> 00:26:12.059
totally get it. We publish a
ton of content on this podcast and it
363
00:26:12.140 --> 00:26:15.220
can be a lot to keep up
with. That's why we've started the B
364
00:26:15.380 --> 00:26:21.009
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