Transcript
WEBVTT
1
00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:18.199
Conversations from the front lines and marketing. This is be tob growth. Welcome
2
00:00:18.399 --> 00:00:22.640
into be tob growth. Today I'm
excited to be joined by JEN able.
3
00:00:22.839 --> 00:00:29.120
She is the CO founder of jellyfish. That's jellyfish with to Jay's and Jen,
4
00:00:29.199 --> 00:00:32.280
we are so glad to have you
here with us on B tob growth
5
00:00:32.320 --> 00:00:34.759
today. Benjie, it's a pleasure
to be here. Thanks so much for
6
00:00:34.799 --> 00:00:38.240
having me, for sure. So, Jen, what is the problem?
7
00:00:38.320 --> 00:00:43.159
Let's just start here. What's the
problem that jellyfish helps solve? Yeah,
8
00:00:43.280 --> 00:00:49.039
we help start ups go from zero
to one in the US market. So
9
00:00:49.079 --> 00:00:55.280
the specific problem is that's typically a
founder's job, except most founders are technical
10
00:00:55.320 --> 00:01:03.640
and engineering sound trick and don't necessarily
have the commercial skills to unlock that first
11
00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:07.439
million. So we bed alongside them
as their co pilot to help them reach
12
00:01:07.439 --> 00:01:14.959
that initial milestone. Nice, because
today's episode is hyper focused on the zero
13
00:01:15.079 --> 00:01:18.920
to one motion and the companies you
work with are in, you know,
14
00:01:18.959 --> 00:01:25.640
those sort of early stages. You're
allowed about the need for sales before marketing,
15
00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:27.079
which, just so you know,
jen, we talked to a lot
16
00:01:27.120 --> 00:01:30.840
of marketers here on be tob growth, so I love your unique advantage point.
17
00:01:30.920 --> 00:01:34.879
On that we're specifically, should founders
be hyper focused? What's this whole
18
00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:38.719
idea of sales before market? Yeah, so it's interesting. A lot of
19
00:01:38.719 --> 00:01:44.280
people have different definitions for what sales
and marketing its. So let's start with
20
00:01:44.359 --> 00:01:48.400
just the definition of sales. So
sales, in our mind, or our
21
00:01:48.439 --> 00:01:51.879
belief, is that's one to one. Right, you're in the room,
22
00:01:51.879 --> 00:01:57.159
you're able to get super deep,
it's super personalized and you're able to unlock
23
00:01:57.239 --> 00:02:00.719
some real raw we call them earned
insights. Right, it's that Oneton one.
24
00:02:01.280 --> 00:02:06.359
Marketing is more of that one too
many, right, where you're reaching
25
00:02:06.400 --> 00:02:10.800
out to a group of people,
and also it's tricky because you have to
26
00:02:10.840 --> 00:02:15.479
be spot on in order for someone
to say, Hmm, that inspired me,
27
00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:21.639
I'm interested in learning more so,
right, we believe, for founders,
28
00:02:21.680 --> 00:02:24.560
in order to get those earned insights, in order to differentiate themselves,
29
00:02:24.719 --> 00:02:30.240
in order to build trust, the
quickest and most successful way to do that
30
00:02:30.319 --> 00:02:35.680
is through that one on one conversation. But, more importantly, those initial
31
00:02:35.719 --> 00:02:40.199
customers that a founders going to generate
as their early doctors, those are recruited
32
00:02:40.240 --> 00:02:46.080
manually, right, those are the
founder selling the vision, the value,
33
00:02:46.159 --> 00:02:50.280
the direct line into them, to
convince these early doctors to take a risk
34
00:02:50.400 --> 00:02:54.039
on them. It's I'm I'm hard
pressed to believe that a marketing effort is
35
00:02:54.080 --> 00:03:00.680
going to produce that level of trust
that unlike a founder reaching out personalized to
36
00:03:00.759 --> 00:03:06.159
someone and pursuing it that way.
So in the zero to one motion,
37
00:03:06.199 --> 00:03:09.879
you would say just hold off on
marketing till a later time and let's really
38
00:03:09.919 --> 00:03:14.879
dive into founders. I mean well, before you invest the time, the
39
00:03:14.919 --> 00:03:16.680
money and the resources in marketing,
you have to know who the hell you're
40
00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:22.560
marketing to, what they can wear, resonates exactly where they are, and
41
00:03:22.639 --> 00:03:24.439
the only way to get that inside
in that data is through one on one
42
00:03:24.520 --> 00:03:29.759
conversations. MMM. So let's dive
into that a little bit more. When
43
00:03:29.759 --> 00:03:35.080
you're saying founder lad selling, kind
of detail that picture for us a little
44
00:03:35.080 --> 00:03:37.719
bit. One hundred one is one
of the things you highlight there. Ye,
45
00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:39.000
but what are some of the things
that you would teach and would be
46
00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:44.159
in that space? So one of
the most important things about founder led selling
47
00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:50.319
is being super focused. Who is
that initial core group of folks that are
48
00:03:50.360 --> 00:03:53.120
going to generate my first million from
right? They're going to be the word
49
00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:55.719
of mouth they're going to be my
references, they're going to be my case
50
00:03:55.800 --> 00:03:59.680
studies. Right, I know that
I'm going to be able to solve their
51
00:03:59.719 --> 00:04:03.199
problem better than anyone else and that
fly wheel to go from one to ten
52
00:04:03.240 --> 00:04:09.439
now becomes even faster and less challenging. That that zero to one. I
53
00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:12.520
always say zero to one actually takes
twice as long as going from one to
54
00:04:12.680 --> 00:04:14.639
ten. Believe it or not,
I know that seems counter would I,
55
00:04:15.039 --> 00:04:17.720
but really what that means is the
founder needs to scope out who is that
56
00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:20.839
initial ICP? Not It, who
is the initial two to three ICPS?
57
00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:26.319
Who is that singular focus that I
am the founder, am going to understand
58
00:04:26.399 --> 00:04:30.959
their problem better than anyone else,
build the trust right, make sure my
59
00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:35.160
product is built for that problem and
even more contextualized to that so that I
60
00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:39.480
can then convert more people in that
group. Right, once you get one
61
00:04:39.560 --> 00:04:42.240
or two in a very specifical group, it's much easier to get your thirty,
62
00:04:42.319 --> 00:04:45.639
fourth, to fifth or six right
and build that momentum. But in
63
00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:48.879
order to get that initial momentum you
really have to be focused, you have
64
00:04:48.959 --> 00:04:54.920
to be specific and you have to
understand, more importantly, that problem better
65
00:04:54.920 --> 00:04:58.199
than the market does. Because that's
what's going to build the trust and inspire
66
00:04:58.279 --> 00:05:01.000
them to want to take a risk
on you. So I could see one
67
00:05:01.079 --> 00:05:06.759
of the issues being founders get oh
shiny object syndrome. Right, it's like,
68
00:05:06.879 --> 00:05:10.160
well, it would be cool to
appeal to that Group and Oh,
69
00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:13.839
I could see our product also being
beneficial for them and over time. Right.
70
00:05:13.879 --> 00:05:15.759
You could add ICPS, but you're
saying singular focus. What are some
71
00:05:15.800 --> 00:05:23.399
of those other common hiccups or hurdles
that you see founders sort of run into
72
00:05:23.560 --> 00:05:28.720
again and again? Yeah, the
first and foremost is delegate it way too
73
00:05:28.800 --> 00:05:31.519
soon. Right. So founder,
a lot of founders are allergic to sales.
74
00:05:31.639 --> 00:05:34.800
Right. They're like, oh,
this is a smile and dial game,
75
00:05:35.439 --> 00:05:40.439
this is this requires a smooth talker. This doesn't appeal to me.
76
00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:44.920
This doesn't excite me as much.
The reason why most companies fail. There's
77
00:05:44.959 --> 00:05:47.480
that CB in sites article that I'm
sure everyone is probably read that's listening to
78
00:05:47.519 --> 00:05:51.439
this, where it says the number
one reason startup fails most of the number
79
00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:57.480
one reason startups to bail is due
to the market. No market need.
80
00:05:57.879 --> 00:06:01.560
That to me is completely avoidable.
That means that you built the vacuum right
81
00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:04.759
and you went out and you try
to be in search of a problem,
82
00:06:04.959 --> 00:06:11.040
right and founder led selling your you're
almost building the product as you're going out
83
00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:13.800
and talking to customers. Your product
should not be fully baked when you go
84
00:06:13.839 --> 00:06:16.680
out into the market because you really
need to understand the problems they are,
85
00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:21.480
care about the problems that they are
urgent to solve for but, more importantly,
86
00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:26.680
make sure you're not overbuilding right,
like there's so much product that out
87
00:06:26.720 --> 00:06:30.399
there because people over build thinking all
of these features and benefits are needed.
88
00:06:30.519 --> 00:06:33.560
I will say, after doing this
two hundred times over, eighty percent of
89
00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:39.600
the value in the product that most
founders build in Stage one. Eighty percent
90
00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:43.000
of the value comes from twenty percent
of the product. MMM Right. So,
91
00:06:43.240 --> 00:06:45.920
if you think about it, this
is what people people don't buy all
92
00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:48.759
in one solutions. They buy something
that's small, tangible. All right,
93
00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:53.560
let's start here. We can always
widen. So just understanding what that injection
94
00:06:53.639 --> 00:06:57.839
point is and again knowing that problem
better than anyone else in the market,
95
00:06:57.879 --> 00:07:00.759
because that's what we'll get you that
one. So I think when we were
96
00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:05.680
talking before this episode, you had
brought up the art and the science of
97
00:07:05.720 --> 00:07:11.920
this early stage game. Is early
stage selling game. So when you're thinking
98
00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:15.360
of the art of early sales,
what's held in that bucket to you,
99
00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:19.839
Gen what does that mean to you
as far as the art of the early
100
00:07:19.839 --> 00:07:25.680
stage sale? So the the the
art piece to me is that that vision,
101
00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:30.040
that passion, that drive to just
be in love with the problem.
102
00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:32.360
I most mostly saunders, being to
be in love with the problem that they're
103
00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:36.279
seeking to solve. Right and be
Yep, well, you can't hire for
104
00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:42.279
that right like that is something that
is that is a competitive advantage founders have
105
00:07:42.319 --> 00:07:45.240
when they go out selling. No
one is going to have the vision in
106
00:07:45.319 --> 00:07:47.360
the passion that you do. You'll
outweig every sales person if you're paired up
107
00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:51.680
against, you know, competitor sales
teams. Right. The science piece to
108
00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:57.360
it is sales as a machine.
It's black and white. It's yes or
109
00:07:57.399 --> 00:08:00.920
no. Right, it's only maybe
when you're not sure how to qualify properly.
110
00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:05.720
Okay, you're not pushing the lead
enough. So after every meeting,
111
00:08:05.959 --> 00:08:09.639
okay, you should know. Is
this person a high fit, yes or
112
00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:13.800
no? Are they put a potential
early adopter, yes or no? Had
113
00:08:13.800 --> 00:08:16.639
they tried to historically solve for this
in the past? Yes, or no.
114
00:08:16.920 --> 00:08:18.240
Do they have a budget? Yes
or no? Right, it's inputs
115
00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:24.439
and outputs, and the science piece
behind it is the evidence collection, that
116
00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:28.680
piece of okay, once I can
identify repeatable themes from that evidence, I
117
00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:31.639
now know where to double down.
Right. So it's that falling in love
118
00:08:31.720 --> 00:08:37.039
with that process piece, right,
and that art piece is much more of
119
00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:39.399
you know, once you have your
process and now you lay or on top
120
00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:43.000
of it the vision and the passion, I mean you're unstoppable at that point.
121
00:08:43.159 --> 00:08:46.960
MMM. And that's why I believe
under lets selling is the number one
122
00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:50.399
competitive advantage going through zero to one, and a lot of people give that
123
00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:54.279
up. They an't go out and
hire someone right, and you're already decreasing
124
00:08:54.320 --> 00:08:58.879
your odds of success by doing that. HMM. Yeah, I imagine specifically
125
00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:03.759
on the art side for a second, because the founder knows the problem the
126
00:09:03.759 --> 00:09:11.000
the best. They also clearly are
the closest to the entire creation of the
127
00:09:11.039 --> 00:09:13.840
solution and they're going to have the
story, the narrative. We talked about
128
00:09:13.879 --> 00:09:18.639
that a lot from a marketing standpoint, but the founder sort of also has
129
00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:20.879
that. So they can become in
the zero one motion. They are so
130
00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:26.320
critically important and then they can easily
become the bottleneck as it grows because they
131
00:09:26.360 --> 00:09:28.639
have to figure out a way to
hand it off. It's funny that you
132
00:09:28.679 --> 00:09:33.039
said some hand it off to early
Oh yeah, because that's actually not what
133
00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:37.799
I typically hear. I hear they
hold on too long. So I love
134
00:09:37.879 --> 00:09:41.159
that insight there. I would love
for you to to maybe go into a
135
00:09:41.159 --> 00:09:46.960
little bit more on the science side. You said early you're tracking because you
136
00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:52.080
can. You're tracking early adopters,
budget, evidence collection, anything else there
137
00:09:52.120 --> 00:09:56.159
that's sort of in that bucket?
Yeah, I mean even just doing outbound
138
00:09:56.320 --> 00:10:03.159
cold emailing. Okay, okay,
cold emailing from a founder, you'll get
139
00:10:03.240 --> 00:10:07.879
real time insights into what's working in
not and where there's leakage versus at marketing
140
00:10:07.960 --> 00:10:11.360
right, like you'll know at a
granular level. You know by that individual
141
00:10:11.399 --> 00:10:15.759
did they open your note, yes
or no? Kay, did they respond?
142
00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:20.240
Right? That level of depth and
those metrics are really, really hard
143
00:10:20.320 --> 00:10:22.720
to, you know, pick up
when you're doing these broad based, you
144
00:10:22.759 --> 00:10:28.120
know, marketing campaigns right and,
most importantly, if they respond yes or
145
00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:31.799
no, you have a chance to
go deeper into the why and why I
146
00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:35.559
say cold emailing is so critical.
It's that also that personalized piece. Right,
147
00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:39.639
you don't have brand equity when you're
going through zero to one. Right,
148
00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:43.480
you typically probably don't have case studies, you don't have references. Right,
149
00:10:43.559 --> 00:10:46.080
you probably have a very small marketing
budget. So, in order to
150
00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:50.159
increase your odds, right, if
the founder of selling a note to someone
151
00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:54.679
that they know is high fit because
they've defined their ICP very clearly, these
152
00:10:54.720 --> 00:10:58.840
are all the things that we are
doing to increase our odds. Right.
153
00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:01.159
We all know the odds of early
stage startups, you know, get into
154
00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:05.399
the next round is it gets trimmed
and trimmed and trimmed. So how do
155
00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:07.759
you make sure you put this the
the odds of success in your favor?
156
00:11:07.759 --> 00:11:11.320
And these are all of the things
that we look for and have seen work
157
00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:16.120
successfully. These scale tactics or these
shortcuts will quickly lead to failure. There
158
00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:22.080
is no shortcut to the stuff.
It's hard manual work recruiting and and building
159
00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:26.360
that trust and selling that vision.
That, I think is very, very
160
00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:30.360
hard to do when you're doing it
to many versus doing it one on one.
161
00:11:31.279 --> 00:11:33.759
Hey, everyone, if you've been
listening to be to be growth for
162
00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:37.799
a while, you know that we
are big proponents of putting out original,
163
00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:43.559
organic content on Linkedin. But one
thing that's always been a struggle for a
164
00:11:43.600 --> 00:11:48.399
team like ours is easily tracking the
reach of that linkedin content. That's why
165
00:11:48.399 --> 00:11:52.759
we're really excited about shield analytics.
Since our team started using shield, we've
166
00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:58.320
been able to easily track the reach
and performance of our linkedin content without having
167
00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:03.600
to manually log it ourselves. It
automatically creates reports and it generates dashboards that
168
00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:09.039
are incredibly useful to determining things like
what content has been performing the best,
169
00:12:09.159 --> 00:12:13.559
what days of the week are we
getting the most engagement and our average views
170
00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:20.080
per post. Shield has been a
game changer for our entire team's productivity and
171
00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:24.240
performance on Linkedin. I highly suggest
checking out this tool if you're publishing content
172
00:12:24.279 --> 00:12:30.279
on Linkedin for yourselves or for your
company. You can get a ten day
173
00:12:30.279 --> 00:12:33.919
free trial at shield APP DOT AI, or you can get a twenty five
174
00:12:33.919 --> 00:12:39.399
percent discount with our Promo code be
toob growth. Again, that's shield APP
175
00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:46.759
DOT AI and the Promo Code is
be. The number to be growth all
176
00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:50.120
one word for a twenty five percent
discount. All right, let's get back
177
00:12:50.120 --> 00:12:56.879
into the show. These scale tactics
or the shortcuts will quickly lead to failure.
178
00:12:56.879 --> 00:13:00.960
There is no shortcut to the stuff. It's hard, manual work recruiting
179
00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:05.240
and and building that trust and selling
that vision. That, I think,
180
00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:09.600
is very, very hard to do
when you're doing it to many versus doing
181
00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:13.200
it one on one. Let's talk
about early adopters for a second. What
182
00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:18.279
are some qualifiers that can help us
identify or start spotting those early adopters?
183
00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:22.399
There's three that I typically look at
that are usually the leading indicator that an
184
00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:26.159
early adopter. First and foremost,
do they give you a head not on
185
00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:28.360
the problem? Do they agree a
problem exists? Yes, or now?
186
00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:33.200
Okay, so the stage gate one, stage stay two. Can they articulate
187
00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:37.600
why they haven't been able to solve
this in the past successfully? Write?
188
00:13:37.639 --> 00:13:43.360
What I typically say is they must
have tried to solve for it before if
189
00:13:43.399 --> 00:13:46.200
it's that urgent or if it's that
intense. Right, so is that?
190
00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:50.080
If they having that's usually like,
well, why not? Is it because
191
00:13:50.120 --> 00:13:54.759
it's not priority one through five?
So the historics piece to me is is
192
00:13:54.759 --> 00:14:00.240
predicated of, you know, future
intent and then the third piece is what's
193
00:14:00.279 --> 00:14:03.320
at risk if they don't solve for
today? Right, can they articulate that.
194
00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:07.759
Well, if we don't solve it
for today, here's how that compounds
195
00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:11.279
down the line or here's what's at
risk, and it's those implications that help
196
00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:16.919
me understand how real and early adopter
is versus what could lead to meeting exhaustion,
197
00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:20.559
because at the end of the day, an early adopter has a very
198
00:14:20.600 --> 00:14:24.639
different type of look, kind of
what we just talked about, a specifically
199
00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:28.840
on the historics piece. Then any
other lead and making sure that you you
200
00:14:28.919 --> 00:14:31.000
understand that on call one, don't
waste your time. You have limited time
201
00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:33.919
and resources as a founder. Make
sure you're spending it on the right people,
202
00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:37.440
and you mentioned cold email as one
of the ways to do that,
203
00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:43.279
because obviously expanding your network to reaching
outside of just those people. What's the
204
00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:46.919
strategy there? Is you're thinking of
getting these meetings? Yeah, I would
205
00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:50.879
love to know, like, is
it just I mean you, you are
206
00:14:50.919 --> 00:14:54.039
a big proponent of cold email,
which I think is is interesting and smart,
207
00:14:54.039 --> 00:14:58.120
for sure, definitely coming from the
founder to you probably have some good
208
00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:01.440
luck there. But yeah, what
are some other ways? So I don't
209
00:15:01.480 --> 00:15:05.320
know other way to so, first
and foremost, what I love about email
210
00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:07.759
is they can open it on their
time. You don't have to time it
211
00:15:07.799 --> 00:15:09.559
perfectly, just unlike cold calling.
It like if you hit them at the
212
00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:13.519
wrong time, it could be very
ugly. So, yeah, hitting them
213
00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:16.519
at the time when they're when they're
ready to read it right too, is
214
00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:20.039
tracking it. Do they open it? Do they forward it? Where do
215
00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:22.879
they open it? And understanding more
the follow up that you can do from
216
00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:28.159
there. Do they even respond?
Three is, I don't know any other
217
00:15:28.519 --> 00:15:31.799
a tool that allows you to it
as personalized to that single person where no
218
00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:37.039
one else in the world could receive
this exact message but this individual. Right,
219
00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:39.840
there's no other way to show effort
like that. Right in that effort,
220
00:15:39.879 --> 00:15:43.279
it warms people's hearts in a weird
way, right, like a personalized
221
00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:46.679
note. Even if it's a not
fit, I'll still respond and say,
222
00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:48.639
Hey, this is not the right
fit, but thank you for, you
223
00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:50.679
know, for spending the time you
did on that note. And the last
224
00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:56.159
piece is cold emails generally are so
bad. It's actually not that. It's
225
00:15:56.200 --> 00:16:00.200
actually not that hard to stand out
right. So I think it's one of
226
00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:03.919
the highest row eyes that a BEDB
company can do is the cold email.
227
00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:07.080
And coming from the founder, I
mean I don't know anything that's better than
228
00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:11.559
that. So you would say to
make your email stand out, it's mostly
229
00:16:11.639 --> 00:16:15.279
about the personalization piece. That's how
you raise the bar. Is there anything
230
00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:19.639
else that you think raises the bar
of that cold email outside of personalization?
231
00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:25.960
Ye, informal, super short and
sweet. You know, don't use jargon.
232
00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:29.840
What is the problem? You solved
in one sentence. So Hyper Personal
233
00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:33.840
Eyes Hook Right, get them to
open in bea think this is interesting problem,
234
00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:37.799
statement, call the action. That's
it. Super Short, sweet,
235
00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:41.639
again from the founder. People are
willing to respond to a founder. People
236
00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:45.159
are excited to learn. Our world
is changing so fast. Everyone is always
237
00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:48.120
learning, and when you get receive
a note from a founder and the problem
238
00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:52.679
is somewhat intense, they will give
you their time. Right. People are
239
00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:55.960
motivated to give you their time if
their feeling it, and if they're not
240
00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:57.600
feeling it will. You'll see that
from the data of the cold outbound as
241
00:16:57.639 --> 00:17:03.480
well. So I actually wrote an
article called the old the Ode to the
242
00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:07.680
cold email, the founder led cold
email, and it just talks about the
243
00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:11.920
importance of doing this and the ability
to track it measure. Again, going
244
00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:15.680
back to that science piece and knowing
where to iterate right. If everyone's opening
245
00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:18.519
your email but no one's responding either, two things are at risk. Either
246
00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:22.519
it's not personalized enough so they think
it's spam, or the problem statements not
247
00:17:22.519 --> 00:17:26.240
resoning. Well, that's really good
to know. As quickly as possible,
248
00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:30.920
call the action. Typically what setting
up a meeting? What like? What
249
00:17:30.279 --> 00:17:33.359
do you see as the most I
would love to understand how this problem is
250
00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:37.960
manifesting, you know in your role. Would love to grab some time if
251
00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:40.680
you're open to it. Again,
happy to share what we've learned as well
252
00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:45.400
about it. Okay, I like
that. I wonder, like overall everything
253
00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:48.599
we've talked about so far, within
founder led selling, how are you judging,
254
00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:52.880
let's go into like effectiveness, and
will go into metrics here for a
255
00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:57.599
second as well. How are you
judging the effectiveness of founder led selling?
256
00:17:57.799 --> 00:18:03.240
So the effect then, as a
founder led selling really comes down to are
257
00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:06.759
you targeting? First of all,
are you targeting someone that agrees a problem
258
00:18:06.759 --> 00:18:11.880
exists? So a head not effectiveness
point. Correctly, Yep, right to
259
00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:17.519
is are they seeking to solve it
today, and that is typically hidden somewhere
260
00:18:17.559 --> 00:18:21.640
in the historical piece, if they've
tried to solve it unsuccessfully in the past.
261
00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:23.920
They're probably still trying to solve it
today. Okay, so that you
262
00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:30.039
can start to begin to understand intent. And the third piece is what is
263
00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:36.640
the intensity or the frequency of that
problem, which all sits under urgency right.
264
00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:38.480
So how intense is it? How
much are they bleeding in money or
265
00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:42.920
bleeding in time, or how frequent
is this problem coming up? And it's
266
00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:47.079
those three things where, if you
get ahead, not right, that the
267
00:18:47.079 --> 00:18:49.960
problem exists, their historics of how
they try to solve for it and they
268
00:18:49.960 --> 00:18:55.799
can quantify the intensity or the frequency
around it. That's a qualified lead.
269
00:18:55.839 --> 00:19:00.559
And if you're having ten calls and
only one is turning into a sales qualified
270
00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:03.759
lead, why is that right?
And being able to understand that, if
271
00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:06.359
half are you know you're on the
right track. If more than half,
272
00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:10.119
our double down as quickly as possible. Right. So you can build mental
273
00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:14.519
models about the market, and that's
the beauty of again, being so specific
274
00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:18.519
and so constrained to an ICP.
You will quickly see themes bubble up as
275
00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:22.119
quickly as possible and you will know
immediately if you're on track or not.
276
00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:27.119
I always like to say rejection is
actually redirection. When you get rejected.
277
00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:33.079
Great. Why Now? How does
that lead you to the pulse right?
278
00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:37.200
So again that whole science piece of
the it's always black and white. It's
279
00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:41.000
not this gray area that a lot
of people claim it to be. It's
280
00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:44.720
either they have a problem and they
want to solve it today or they don't.
281
00:19:44.839 --> 00:19:47.400
And now if they don't, you
now have to decide as it makes
282
00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:49.720
sense to invest in them, to
move them up the ladder to get to
283
00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:52.759
that point of intent, or we
look in, you know, too far
284
00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:56.920
out, and then that's what marketing
comes in. When those folks are below
285
00:19:56.960 --> 00:20:00.960
that, you can have marketing start
to warm them up and start to advance
286
00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:04.279
them up the ladder. So when
you say you quickly see themes and readjust,
287
00:20:04.359 --> 00:20:08.039
I wonder, like, what is
that actually look like in frequency?
288
00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:15.000
Is there like any cadence that is
typical that you advised to founders to be
289
00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:18.039
to be readjusting? Yeah, so
you know, when you're doing founder led
290
00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:22.759
selling, you need to know as
quickly as possible if you're on the right
291
00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:25.799
track right, because you know,
I will say every start up we've ever
292
00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:29.599
supporting, we've supported over two hundred. I have yet to work with one
293
00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:32.519
where they're on the right track from
day one. But we've only a love
294
00:20:32.680 --> 00:20:37.119
that. Yeah, it's pretty sure. And what that comes down to is
295
00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:41.839
after three or four conversations with the
same type of person, right same role,
296
00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:48.119
same rough team structure, the same
maturity, if you're the same thing
297
00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:51.160
three or four times, that is
enough of a leading indicator to say,
298
00:20:51.240 --> 00:20:53.880
okay, where do we turn now? Right, because at the end of
299
00:20:53.880 --> 00:20:57.759
the day it's all about speed,
but speed without precision is deadly. So
300
00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:03.279
use this guidance as the precision to
guide you to the right area and again,
301
00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:06.079
move there as quickly as possible.
No, I think there's a lot
302
00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:10.759
of companies out there are a lot
of ways to accelerate and speed up the
303
00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:15.160
process to product market fit and speed
in itself is actually quite dangerous. You
304
00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:19.880
do need to make sure you're going
in the right direction. I wonder anything
305
00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:25.400
you is say sort of in the
handoff process, when it actually does start
306
00:21:25.480 --> 00:21:32.039
to happen from the founder to a
team of salespeople, what in that should
307
00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:33.759
be handed like? How does it
get handed off? Well, I guess
308
00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:37.240
would be my question. Gin.
So when you know it's time to hand
309
00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:41.920
to go from founder led selling to
now founder led managing, right, which
310
00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:44.680
is the next stage, right,
which is the founder down manages a team
311
00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:45.559
of three or four, and then
you can bring it ahead of sales and
312
00:21:45.599 --> 00:21:48.960
then vp of sales and all that. So when you go from founder led
313
00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:52.599
selling to founder led managing, these
are the these are the kind of the
314
00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:56.640
outcomes to get there. Can you, if you're selling enterprise, can you,
315
00:21:56.720 --> 00:22:00.640
the founder, close the first ten
deals? Okay, if you're selling
316
00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:04.480
mid market, can you close the
first, you know, twenty? If
317
00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:07.920
you're going SMB, can you close
the first fifty? Right, it's kind
318
00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:11.880
of just skills down there, and
I roughly say the first million, whatever
319
00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:15.359
that looks like. Again, mental
model. So that's stage gate. One
320
00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:18.519
Stage A to is do you have
the skeleton process for how you did it?
321
00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:23.519
If you cannot show a nonfounder how
to do this and how to hold
322
00:22:23.559 --> 00:22:29.519
them accountable, they will fail.
Right, Ninety five percent of first hail
323
00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:33.039
sires fail, and they fail because
they've never been given the process or because
324
00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:37.880
it was handed over too soon and
there's no customers yet closed. So again,
325
00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:41.359
in order for these non founders to
sell successfully they need a case study.
326
00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:44.839
So you have to get a few
deals over the line and show the
327
00:22:44.839 --> 00:22:48.319
market that you're able to do this
right, because now that you're not,
328
00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:51.759
now that you're handing a knock this
off to your first sales person, they
329
00:22:51.799 --> 00:22:56.480
are they have the odd stacked against
them, right because their salesperson, and
330
00:22:56.519 --> 00:22:57.599
who's going to want to talk to
a sales person? Well, when they're
331
00:22:57.680 --> 00:23:02.559
armed with the right tools, they
will be successful, and some of those
332
00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:07.400
are case studies, references, logos
and then the process for how the founder
333
00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:10.440
did it. And you, as
the founder, need to be able to
334
00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:15.079
say to x, first AE,
I need you to write, reach out
335
00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:18.440
to you know, fifteen people a
day or fifty people a day. Here's
336
00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:22.319
exactly what they look like. Here's
the problem they care about. Now go
337
00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:26.400
out and scale. What we know
is validated. So assume that in an
338
00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:32.640
salesperson is going to be good at
following a process. They are a allergic
339
00:23:32.839 --> 00:23:34.480
to building a process. So do
not rely on them to build out the
340
00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:37.599
sales process. This has to be
on the founder. I'll recap what you
341
00:23:37.640 --> 00:23:41.400
just said because I like that.
So founder. Obviously the number is going
342
00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:47.400
to change depending enterprise, whatever,
but founder, close are first mill skeleton
343
00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:51.720
of how it's done. You got
to have the processes in place. I
344
00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:55.039
look, I think it's so true. The tools, which is the case
345
00:23:55.119 --> 00:23:57.759
studies, something that's in their back
pocket, to actually execute and show,
346
00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:04.039
okay, we prove of concept and
then execute on actually handing it off in
347
00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:10.319
a way that they don't have to
create the process right. So I think
348
00:24:10.359 --> 00:24:12.960
that that's really key. I wonder, Jen, could you give us any
349
00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:17.359
examples? You've done this, you
said, two hundred plus times, but
350
00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:21.640
anything that comes to mind in just
practical examples force as we start to wrap
351
00:24:21.720 --> 00:24:25.759
up today. Yeah, I mean
the founder, even after, even after
352
00:24:25.799 --> 00:24:27.359
your first million, you're going to
still potentially need to be involved in the
353
00:24:27.359 --> 00:24:32.359
deals at some level, right,
especially sure become more and more qualified.
354
00:24:32.519 --> 00:24:38.039
Okay, so what you now need
to determine is, again the validation piece
355
00:24:38.119 --> 00:24:41.000
is critical, because they are going
to be again the science. They're going
356
00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:45.680
to be operating against the things that
are validated, all of the known unknowns.
357
00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:48.359
That's still your job to figure out, right. And the I call
358
00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:52.640
it founder lad managing, because that
feedback loops still needs to be super tight.
359
00:24:52.839 --> 00:24:56.319
Right now that you've got the momentum
kicking, how do you make sure
360
00:24:56.400 --> 00:25:00.759
that it's repeatable and then eventually become
skillable and the further you remove yourself from
361
00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:06.680
it, the further again, you're
increasing the odds of failure. So as
362
00:25:06.759 --> 00:25:11.000
the founder, still be deeply involved, still know how to hold these people
363
00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:14.640
accountable. Okay, Web and get
to that granular level. You should know
364
00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:15.920
how many leads they need to reach
out to on a daily basis, based
365
00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:18.480
off of the conversion you were able
to do, just padded a little bit,
366
00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:22.240
knowing that they don't have the founder
title. All right, and,
367
00:25:22.359 --> 00:25:25.839
most importantly, make sure they know
who they are reaching now to. All
368
00:25:25.880 --> 00:25:27.680
Right, we've supported I don't know
how many founders who have built the sales
369
00:25:27.720 --> 00:25:30.200
team and I asked the founders,
I'm like, all right, well,
370
00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:33.160
who is your ideal customer? And
they go, they go all the way
371
00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:37.480
out here into the Super Wide Net
and I asked them. I'm like,
372
00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:41.200
why is this so wide? Right, you're now targeting three different ICPs based
373
00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:42.920
off of everything you said to me, and they're like, well, we're
374
00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:47.960
trying to hedge to make sure we
at least find something, and I say
375
00:25:47.960 --> 00:25:51.839
this isn't a hedge game. This
is a process of elimination. Start with
376
00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:53.400
one, you either check it off
or you cross it off and you move
377
00:25:53.400 --> 00:25:56.759
on to the next. There is
no hedge in here. So if you
378
00:25:56.759 --> 00:26:00.440
think you're going to build a sales
team based off of hedges, be warned.
379
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:03.559
That will lead to failure very quickly. So fun conversation. I love
380
00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:07.759
the switch up. It's great for
marketers to hear this conversation because it just
381
00:26:07.880 --> 00:26:11.640
changes the YEP, the normal.
What we get out of these these episodes.
382
00:26:12.279 --> 00:26:15.400
As we start to close, any
final thoughts on founder led sales,
383
00:26:15.480 --> 00:26:18.720
Jen, anything you want to leave
us with as we as we wrap up?
384
00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:23.200
It's manual, it's hard and and
it takes twice as long as going
385
00:26:23.240 --> 00:26:27.279
from one to ten. If you
can get through this milestone as the founder
386
00:26:27.279 --> 00:26:32.200
and show the proof of how it's
done, you will be unstoppable. Just
387
00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:34.920
stick with it and it does.
It does feel like it's taking too long,
388
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:38.359
but again, building that momentum and
building that trust in market is the
389
00:26:38.440 --> 00:26:44.920
hardest part. It's very easy to
expand once you have your your core group
390
00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:48.279
closed and being delivered in a successful
way. So just stick with that.
391
00:26:48.920 --> 00:26:51.799
Jen, thank you for taking time
and being with us on B tob growth.
392
00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:53.920
For people that want to connect with
you and jellyfish further, what's the
393
00:26:53.920 --> 00:26:57.559
best way for people to do that
twitter. I am very responsive on twitter,
394
00:26:57.640 --> 00:27:00.279
DM more so than mail. Actually, believe it or not, even
395
00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:04.480
though I said email works for me, it's twitter DM. So Jen Double
396
00:27:04.599 --> 00:27:11.839
J underscore able abel fantastic. Well, we're always having conversations just like this
397
00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:15.960
here on Bob Growth, so if
you have yet to subscribe to the podcast,
398
00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:19.000
be sure you do that so you
never miss an episode and you can
399
00:27:19.079 --> 00:27:23.319
connect with me on Linkedin. I
am not active on twitter, so connect
400
00:27:23.319 --> 00:27:26.599
with me on Linkedin. Just Search
Benjie Block over there. We're talking marketing,
401
00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:32.200
business in life and keep doing work
that matters. Gen, thank you
402
00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:47.880
for being on the show today.
We're always excited to have conversations with leaders
403
00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:51.440
on the front lines of marketing.
If there's a marketing director or a chief
404
00:27:51.480 --> 00:27:55.279
marketing officer that you think we need
to have on the show, reach out
405
00:27:55.279 --> 00:27:59.960
email me, ben dot block at
Sweet Fish Mediacom. I look forward to
406
00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:00.680
hearing from you.