March 4, 2021

Evolving from NPS to Account Experience

In this episode of the #CX series, Ethan Beute, Chief Eva ngelist at BombBomb, talks with Ian Luck, VP of Global Marketing with CustomerGauge, about getti ng more value from NPS and other metrics, as well as ways your CX programs can go right...and wrong.

Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.540 --> 00:00:11.360 whether it be revenue survey data, text data website visits support tickets 2 00:00:11.360 --> 00:00:15.060 It's kind of like the amalgamation of all of these data points that are 3 00:00:15.070 --> 00:00:19.330 important at the account level to gauge sentiment. And sometimes, honestly, 4 00:00:19.330 --> 00:00:23.530 absence of signal is really what is driving this account. Experience 5 00:00:23.530 --> 00:00:29.820 software in the back end. NPS Net Promoter Score. It's been around for a 6 00:00:29.820 --> 00:00:34.450 while. Sometimes it gets beat up, but it's still incredibly useful, 7 00:00:34.460 --> 00:00:41.040 especially if you evolve it to monetized NPS. And today's guest on the 8 00:00:41.040 --> 00:00:45.990 C X series on B two b Growth talks about an evolution from monetized MPs 9 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:50.460 to account sentiment and account experience. My name is Ethan Butte. I 10 00:00:50.460 --> 00:00:54.480 host the C X series here on B two b growth, and I host the customer 11 00:00:54.480 --> 00:00:59.940 experience podcast. My guest today is a marketer, Ian Luck, VP of global 12 00:00:59.940 --> 00:01:04.760 marketing at Customer Gauge. And if you're marketing CS operations or any 13 00:01:04.760 --> 00:01:08.780 other team within your organization is thinking about implementing C X 14 00:01:08.780 --> 00:01:15.750 programs. You will love this episode. Here's Ian Luck of customer gauge The C 15 00:01:15.750 --> 00:01:20.310 X gap. It's the gap that leaves some customer experience, initiatives and 16 00:01:20.310 --> 00:01:25.440 programs under resourced at best and D o a at worst. Today we'll talk about 17 00:01:25.440 --> 00:01:30.460 what causes that gap and ways to Bridget so that your team can start or 18 00:01:30.460 --> 00:01:34.880 continue identifying c X issues. Advancing a more customer centric 19 00:01:34.880 --> 00:01:39.870 culture and developing seeks insights with the support you need, among other 20 00:01:39.870 --> 00:01:43.520 activities and accomplishments. Our guest today has served as a retention 21 00:01:43.520 --> 00:01:47.380 marketing manager. He's created an online community for rapid growth 22 00:01:47.380 --> 00:01:52.100 marketers, and he founded his own demand gen agency. He also served as VP 23 00:01:52.100 --> 00:01:56.130 of global marketing for customer gauge, which combines experience and revenue 24 00:01:56.130 --> 00:02:01.750 data with account insights for clients like H and R Block, Eventbrite and DHL 25 00:02:01.760 --> 00:02:07.060 so they can make more customer centric decisions and grow revenue faster. Ian 26 00:02:07.060 --> 00:02:11.050 Luck Welcome to the customer experience Podcast. Hey, thank you so much for 27 00:02:11.050 --> 00:02:15.690 that great intro. And it's been, uh, it's phenomenal. Thank you. Yeah, I 28 00:02:15.690 --> 00:02:19.190 like a variety of things that you're involved in. Talk a little bit about 29 00:02:19.190 --> 00:02:22.350 that. At what point did you decide before we get into customer experience? 30 00:02:22.350 --> 00:02:25.430 At what point did you decide? You know what this rapid growth marketing thing 31 00:02:25.430 --> 00:02:28.910 we need A We need to pull these people together and create a culture and 32 00:02:28.910 --> 00:02:33.810 community around it. Yeah, so I'm not a big proponent of LinkedIn right now. 33 00:02:33.810 --> 00:02:38.200 And if you go on LinkedIn, there are a ton of sales experts on LinkedIn, and 34 00:02:38.200 --> 00:02:42.570 I'm talking like a massive amount of people that are just kicking out some 35 00:02:42.570 --> 00:02:45.850 amazing insights every single day on LinkedIn for sales. But I mean, and 36 00:02:45.850 --> 00:02:49.780 there's a good amount of marketers to lately, especially now with like, uh, 37 00:02:49.790 --> 00:02:53.220 Clary drift those types of people, Swedish media stepping up their game on 38 00:02:53.220 --> 00:02:57.370 LinkedIn. But there's not a true community like, for example, sales 39 00:02:57.370 --> 00:03:01.520 Hacker is a great one for sales. But I haven't really found that go to 40 00:03:01.520 --> 00:03:04.000 community for marketers where they can share their deep insights at the 41 00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:07.560 tactical and strategic level. So that's kind of what really drove me to create 42 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:11.880 that marketing strategy dot com community, and that's that's kind of 43 00:03:11.880 --> 00:03:16.210 been the history of it. It's started from just a place of selfishness. I 44 00:03:16.210 --> 00:03:20.230 think I wanted a place for myself to learn from other marketers, and, uh, we 45 00:03:20.230 --> 00:03:23.140 just rolled it out from there. That's awesome. And there's something really 46 00:03:23.140 --> 00:03:25.930 strong about that sense of community I'll never forget in a previous 47 00:03:25.930 --> 00:03:29.310 industry that I worked in. You know, I felt like I was alone in my local 48 00:03:29.310 --> 00:03:32.050 market. And then you go to New York for the big international conference. 49 00:03:32.050 --> 00:03:35.430 You're like, Oh, my gosh, all these people are facing the same things. I'm 50 00:03:35.430 --> 00:03:39.350 facing the same problems they're facing. They're like, Yeah, it's really nice to 51 00:03:39.350 --> 00:03:44.100 to feel like you're not alone, especially today. So it's awesome. So 52 00:03:44.100 --> 00:03:48.440 let's start where we always start here, which is customer experience when I say 53 00:03:48.440 --> 00:03:53.330 customer experience to you, Ian, what does that mean to you? Oh my God, 54 00:03:53.340 --> 00:03:57.290 that's such a great question. It means a ton of things. But if if I had to 55 00:03:57.300 --> 00:04:01.610 narrow it down, I think it's the sentiment of your brand, your people, 56 00:04:01.610 --> 00:04:05.460 your process, your technology from the perspective of your customers. And it 57 00:04:05.470 --> 00:04:09.450 encompasses every single touch point you have across their entire journey. 58 00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:12.330 But it really, above all else, I think it's like one of the only lasting 59 00:04:12.330 --> 00:04:15.260 differentiators that brands can leverage for long term, profitable 60 00:04:15.260 --> 00:04:18.670 growth when it really comes down to it. Great answer. I love it. It ties 61 00:04:18.670 --> 00:04:23.510 together so many things that I also know are true of customer experience. 62 00:04:23.510 --> 00:04:27.700 First, you said. From the customer's perspective and the customers, reality 63 00:04:27.700 --> 00:04:33.500 is the reality. We can argue about it if we want to, but that is the reality. 64 00:04:33.500 --> 00:04:36.910 And, uh, the key point of differentiation is the thing as well. I 65 00:04:36.910 --> 00:04:41.110 mean, beyond product, beyond features beyond price, that is the 66 00:04:41.110 --> 00:04:46.330 differentiator that is difficult to knock off and it starts inside out. You 67 00:04:46.330 --> 00:04:49.870 got it. And that's exactly what we're seeing is that price promotion product 68 00:04:49.870 --> 00:04:53.890 placement are kind of the old marketing mix, but I think it's being replaced by 69 00:04:53.900 --> 00:04:58.250 honestly experiences. Now. It's awesome. So what do you? Um, I guess I'll just 70 00:04:58.250 --> 00:05:01.850 extend that a little bit. Where do you think the intersection like? There's a 71 00:05:01.850 --> 00:05:05.020 school of thought that says customer experience is an outgrowth of the 72 00:05:05.020 --> 00:05:08.830 customer success organization, and that's where it lives. And that's where 73 00:05:08.830 --> 00:05:12.700 it comes from, and that's its birthplace. But then there's also the 74 00:05:12.700 --> 00:05:17.830 look that is across the lifecycle kind of a C R o type approach to see X, 75 00:05:17.830 --> 00:05:22.040 which is it is all of the customer touchpoints, and it might come out of 76 00:05:22.040 --> 00:05:26.440 marketing for you. Where does C X come from and what is its intersection with 77 00:05:26.440 --> 00:05:29.630 marketing or, you know, there's obviously a deep relationship there. 78 00:05:29.630 --> 00:05:34.950 But what is that relationship to you? Yeah, great question. I think at its 79 00:05:34.950 --> 00:05:41.970 core, properly run C X stems from the ethos of the company itself. So whether 80 00:05:41.970 --> 00:05:45.990 it be from the founder that puts it in place or the CEO, that makes it 81 00:05:45.990 --> 00:05:50.400 prioritized, you know, initiative at the company level. I think it really 82 00:05:50.400 --> 00:05:54.220 does stem from who you guys are as a company, but then it it really does 83 00:05:54.220 --> 00:05:57.300 spread across the entire order. Every department should touch it in some way, 84 00:05:57.300 --> 00:06:00.580 shape or form. So I'm and I'm not knocking customer success. I think 85 00:06:00.580 --> 00:06:04.410 there's definitely a purpose for it. But I think what really sets some of 86 00:06:04.410 --> 00:06:08.610 the companies that do this experience thing apart are the ones that 87 00:06:08.620 --> 00:06:14.590 integrated across all departments, effectively tied to RY, tied to revenue 88 00:06:14.600 --> 00:06:19.480 and report at that level to the CEO. I think that's really the difference that 89 00:06:19.480 --> 00:06:23.640 we talk about often, but it really for me, it's it's across all touchpoints, 90 00:06:23.640 --> 00:06:26.660 all departments. It really has to be for it to be a meaningful thing. 91 00:06:27.040 --> 00:06:30.870 Awesome. You really did a nice job of previewing where we're gonna go here 92 00:06:30.870 --> 00:06:33.980 over the next several minutes. But before we get there, I would love to 93 00:06:33.980 --> 00:06:37.500 start with customer gauge for folks who aren't familiar, tell us a little bit 94 00:06:37.500 --> 00:06:41.380 about customer gauge specifically who is your ideal customer? And what are 95 00:06:41.380 --> 00:06:45.870 some of the problems that you solve for them? Yeah, So customer engages a BDB 96 00:06:45.870 --> 00:06:50.900 account experience software. So we focused primarily on BDB companies, and 97 00:06:50.900 --> 00:06:54.520 what we do really well is we handle the complexities that go along with those B 98 00:06:54.520 --> 00:06:58.920 to B companies. So a lot of these, uh, customer experience software as they 99 00:06:58.920 --> 00:07:03.380 focus on, like, single contact type feedback. What we do is we look at it 100 00:07:03.380 --> 00:07:07.020 from an account level. So if you're a sales and marketing organization that 101 00:07:07.020 --> 00:07:11.850 have account based marketing processes in place, we bolt on right to the 102 00:07:11.860 --> 00:07:16.840 customer side of that. We really focus on providing a view of sentiment at the 103 00:07:16.840 --> 00:07:20.500 account level. And not only that, we provide you with the tools to be 104 00:07:20.500 --> 00:07:24.170 proactive, to follow up with that feedback in real time across multiple 105 00:07:24.170 --> 00:07:26.550 different departments, we have dashboards for sales, marketing, 106 00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:30.540 customer success, whatever it may be. But we really help you predict where 107 00:07:30.540 --> 00:07:33.650 turn will happen and get ahead of it before it does happen. It's really what 108 00:07:33.650 --> 00:07:39.330 we do. Well, really interesting. So I can imagine a number of data sources 109 00:07:39.330 --> 00:07:45.060 obviously plugging into and feeding it. What are some common inputs to the 110 00:07:45.070 --> 00:07:49.400 material that you're reorganizing into a very sensible fashion for people? 111 00:07:49.410 --> 00:07:53.410 Yeah. So the first one we start with is honestly, revenue. We literally lead 112 00:07:53.410 --> 00:07:57.300 with revenue. So we want you to If you have old survey data, we can upload 113 00:07:57.300 --> 00:08:00.840 that as well. But if you want to start from the ground up, we basically say, 114 00:08:00.840 --> 00:08:04.530 all right, give us a list of accounts with the revenue and then we start 115 00:08:04.530 --> 00:08:08.950 their actual experience program. We send out survey, as we do in observing 116 00:08:08.950 --> 00:08:12.380 whatever it may be how we collect the data. We take all of these inputs right? 117 00:08:12.380 --> 00:08:18.170 Whether it be revenue survey data, text data, website visits, support tickets. 118 00:08:18.170 --> 00:08:21.880 It's kind of like that amalgamation of all of these data points that are 119 00:08:21.880 --> 00:08:26.140 important at the county level to gauge sentiment. And sometimes honestly, 120 00:08:26.140 --> 00:08:30.350 absence of signal is really what is driving this account experience 121 00:08:30.350 --> 00:08:33.970 software. In the back end, it's It's saying, All right, this account, we 122 00:08:33.970 --> 00:08:37.700 haven't really heard from them in a little bit. Their last score was maybe 123 00:08:37.700 --> 00:08:41.590 a seven or six. They haven't visited the website in a while. They haven't 124 00:08:41.590 --> 00:08:45.350 consumed content. That's kind of what we have baked in the back end. That 125 00:08:45.350 --> 00:08:48.410 smart algorithm that really starts to predict. Alright, maybe you might want 126 00:08:48.410 --> 00:08:52.150 to reach out to these guys now before you know, six months before the renewal 127 00:08:52.150 --> 00:08:55.430 date to make sure that they don't turn. And they have everything they need to 128 00:08:55.430 --> 00:09:00.130 continue your relationship with, uh, X company. I love it. I love that you're 129 00:09:00.130 --> 00:09:04.620 example. There was that big, quiet middle where you know they're not 130 00:09:04.620 --> 00:09:08.420 frustrated or confused enough to reach out to support. They may be filling out 131 00:09:08.420 --> 00:09:12.020 the NPS surveys, and it's, you know, it's good, not great. They're not 132 00:09:12.030 --> 00:09:16.550 obviously actively using the software, and that is the big kind of silent 133 00:09:16.550 --> 00:09:23.590 threat in any customer database. Really. You know, it's easy, easy, not fair to 134 00:09:23.590 --> 00:09:28.950 say, uh, but it's a great opportunity anytime you have someone on the line to 135 00:09:28.950 --> 00:09:31.960 improve sentiment, whether they're there because they're confused, 136 00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:35.950 frustrated or maybe even downright angry. But There are some little things 137 00:09:35.950 --> 00:09:39.630 you can do to turn that around. And, of course, your biggest friends, fans, 138 00:09:39.630 --> 00:09:43.540 advocates are already engaging with you. And they're out there hopefully 139 00:09:43.540 --> 00:09:47.830 bringing you new customers and that type of thing. But the opportunity to 140 00:09:47.830 --> 00:09:52.480 engage people who are just off the radar, so, so valuable. I love it. One 141 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:55.920 follow up there on the words sentiment, right? Like you're talking about 142 00:09:55.920 --> 00:10:02.630 account sentiment and it's not account activity. It's not account usage. It's 143 00:10:02.630 --> 00:10:06.810 not account expansion, although that's kind of rolled into it. To me, 144 00:10:06.810 --> 00:10:11.590 sentiment has kind of a connotation. That is, I really like it. It's it's a 145 00:10:11.590 --> 00:10:15.920 little warmer. It's a little more feeling oriented, at least in some of 146 00:10:15.920 --> 00:10:21.020 its connotations. Talk about the choice of the word sentiment there. Yeah, so 147 00:10:21.020 --> 00:10:23.870 what I mean by that is like exactly what you said, Ethan. A lot of 148 00:10:23.870 --> 00:10:26.550 companies approach it from like, Hey, let's get all of this random data and, 149 00:10:26.550 --> 00:10:30.070 like usage stats and things like that, and I think that stems from customer 150 00:10:30.070 --> 00:10:33.390 success a little bit, and that's okay, right? Like there's nothing wrong with 151 00:10:33.390 --> 00:10:38.710 that. But what we found to be very valuable is actually getting sentiment 152 00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:42.790 across three levels of the organization. Sea level middle management in the 153 00:10:42.790 --> 00:10:47.000 front line staff, right? So and this is essentially, how does the sea level 154 00:10:47.000 --> 00:10:49.790 feel about your solution? How does the middle management feel about your 155 00:10:49.790 --> 00:10:52.780 solution? How does the frontline feel about your solution? And that is what 156 00:10:52.780 --> 00:10:57.560 we really mean by account sentiment. Right? You get a very clear view, and 157 00:10:57.560 --> 00:11:01.110 this happens all the time. C. Leavell loves it. They see the value of the 158 00:11:01.110 --> 00:11:04.590 solution. Middle management maybe split. But then the frontline hates you, the 159 00:11:04.590 --> 00:11:07.580 front line, the people that are using the product every single day. They are 160 00:11:07.580 --> 00:11:11.180 not happy with your solution at all. They do not want to go into it every 161 00:11:11.180 --> 00:11:15.810 day. And that that's like common for a lot of companies. And we work with a 162 00:11:15.810 --> 00:11:18.820 good amount of companies that have that split. Where the sea level gets it, 163 00:11:18.820 --> 00:11:21.720 they see the value. But, you know, maybe you could do some improvements to 164 00:11:21.720 --> 00:11:25.180 make the frontline stuff their experience a little bit better. So when 165 00:11:25.180 --> 00:11:28.520 I say account sentiment, it's really looking at it from a holistic 166 00:11:28.520 --> 00:11:33.150 standpoint, it's not just one contact and randomly. Oh, this guy's BP 167 00:11:33.150 --> 00:11:37.410 marketing, right? It's really like segment in your audience at the account 168 00:11:37.410 --> 00:11:40.550 level and then getting sentiment on each individual section of those 169 00:11:40.550 --> 00:11:45.690 audiences. But then layering in those other data sources, like visits like 170 00:11:45.700 --> 00:11:49.760 usage like support tickets. And that's when you really start to get and we 171 00:11:49.760 --> 00:11:53.870 really lead. We believe in NPS like that is our one of our main things. We 172 00:11:53.870 --> 00:11:58.150 really do get behind and stand if done properly, because that really is the 173 00:11:58.150 --> 00:12:01.340 best indicator sentiment. But it's also the best indicator of again long term, 174 00:12:01.340 --> 00:12:06.130 profitable growth. Now we also believe MPs isn't necessarily enough anymore. 175 00:12:06.140 --> 00:12:09.960 You have to do some of those other things, but that's really what we mean 176 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:13.970 is like You get the sentiment at the account level and and kind of layer in 177 00:12:13.970 --> 00:12:18.830 those extra little spices to hopefully help you predict churn a little bit 178 00:12:18.830 --> 00:12:24.750 quicker, really good. We will probably get to monetized MPs as a concept and 179 00:12:24.750 --> 00:12:29.240 as a practice or as an evolution. But let's start here now with the with the 180 00:12:29.240 --> 00:12:33.900 C X gap. Let's let's go into an organization that whether they're 181 00:12:33.900 --> 00:12:38.550 implementing something like customer gauge or whatever else a C X initiative 182 00:12:38.550 --> 00:12:43.810 looks like. Talk about well, first, I guess Let's start with in my mind there 183 00:12:43.810 --> 00:12:47.240 arranged, depending on. You know, if you are an H and R block or an 184 00:12:47.240 --> 00:12:52.110 eventbrite, I'm sure a C X initiative looks a lot different than if you are a 185 00:12:52.120 --> 00:12:56.910 probably even a customer gauge or a bomb bomb. And so maybe maybe start by 186 00:12:56.910 --> 00:13:02.370 defining, like customer experience, initiative or project or whatever and 187 00:13:02.370 --> 00:13:07.230 talk about kind of the Ranger scope there. And maybe, um, some of the 188 00:13:07.230 --> 00:13:12.730 pitfalls to avoid when you start with a new one. Julius do observations. So let 189 00:13:12.730 --> 00:13:15.860 me expand on that. We talked to a good amount of prospects, as you can imagine, 190 00:13:16.540 --> 00:13:19.720 and we we talked a good amount of customers. But I think on the prospects 191 00:13:19.720 --> 00:13:22.030 side, the really interesting thing, especially from the marketing 192 00:13:22.030 --> 00:13:25.430 standpoint. And it's actually a challenge, which I love are my team 193 00:13:25.430 --> 00:13:32.350 loves, but no program is the same. So every company we talked to nobody is 194 00:13:32.350 --> 00:13:34.640 doing it the same way. And I think that's what's really interesting about 195 00:13:34.640 --> 00:13:39.150 the experience marketplaces, that there's so many variations of, of what 196 00:13:39.150 --> 00:13:42.800 people think to be best practice and how they're actually implementing their 197 00:13:42.800 --> 00:13:46.870 system. And it's not even the same across industries like or in industry. 198 00:13:46.880 --> 00:13:50.740 Even like, for example, saas companies doing a bunch of different ways I t 199 00:13:50.740 --> 00:13:54.040 services. Doing a bunch of different ways is that really is a good Cabinet. 200 00:13:54.050 --> 00:13:59.410 Ethan is basically Ken, very like an H and R Block will do it very differently 201 00:13:59.410 --> 00:14:05.750 than a shell or a and hazard Bush, For example, Anheuser Busch is using our 202 00:14:05.760 --> 00:14:09.420 cat experienced software to measure their distribution channel or, as H and 203 00:14:09.420 --> 00:14:14.200 R Block is using it in almost A B B B B D C context, where they're measuring 204 00:14:14.200 --> 00:14:21.330 the franchise E at the BBB level at their sentiment with the franchise. Um, 205 00:14:21.330 --> 00:14:24.250 but they're also measuring at the BBC level for their end user customers. So 206 00:14:24.250 --> 00:14:28.360 it really does run the gamut of things, and it is interesting, and they're all 207 00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:31.530 structured differently. Department's own it in different organs, for example, 208 00:14:31.530 --> 00:14:35.270 marketing sometimes owns it, or there is a C S customer success team that 209 00:14:35.270 --> 00:14:38.150 owns it, or there is a customer experience team that owns it. I've seen 210 00:14:38.150 --> 00:14:43.540 finance on. I've seen operations on it So that's it's tough from a marketing 211 00:14:43.540 --> 00:14:46.520 standpoint, because, like, I can't just say all right, this is our persona. 212 00:14:46.520 --> 00:14:50.970 We're going after operations Boom done like that, that is, and I don't want to 213 00:14:50.970 --> 00:14:54.810 say, because again, to your point is nothing's easy anymore. But it's an 214 00:14:54.810 --> 00:15:00.740 easier marketing tactic is to to line up a persona. But, yeah, it really is 215 00:15:00.750 --> 00:15:05.030 different for every orig. But at the core of it, the companies that we work 216 00:15:05.030 --> 00:15:08.750 with that do extremely well are the ones that understand it's about action. 217 00:15:09.340 --> 00:15:13.130 It's not just measuring it. It's not just saying, Hey, this is a great score. 218 00:15:13.140 --> 00:15:16.530 The gap is when you lead with that score to the sea level and don't really 219 00:15:16.530 --> 00:15:20.290 back it up with any discernible metrics like, for example, revenue or return on 220 00:15:20.290 --> 00:15:25.010 investment or up sell cross sell. Those are the people that we've done research 221 00:15:25.010 --> 00:15:30.530 with Mitt as well. Um, that literally shows if you don't focus on return on 222 00:15:30.530 --> 00:15:35.570 investment or Upsell and cross sell and referrals built into your experience 223 00:15:35.570 --> 00:15:39.200 program, not only will you struggle to maintain internal buying from the sea 224 00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:42.720 level, but your program is not going to grow. I might even die, and it's a 225 00:15:42.730 --> 00:15:46.340 pretty much I don't want to be to doom and gloom here. But it's there's a good 226 00:15:46.340 --> 00:15:50.820 chance that will die if you don't focus on those things. And so what do you 227 00:15:50.820 --> 00:15:54.330 think? Practitioners get wrong in that today when you say it and it seems so 228 00:15:54.330 --> 00:15:58.500 common sensical. Anyone operating inside an organization that wants to 229 00:15:58.500 --> 00:16:02.980 continue to operate, or even better, get more resources. Whether that's more 230 00:16:02.980 --> 00:16:07.140 budget or more team members or whatever the case may be, everyone should 231 00:16:07.140 --> 00:16:10.330 obviously be trying to map themselves to revenue. Just to hear you say it is 232 00:16:10.330 --> 00:16:14.720 like Yeah, of course. But I also know the reality that a sometimes it's not 233 00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:19.480 easy to do and be. Sometimes the culture doesn't demand it or sometimes 234 00:16:19.480 --> 00:16:24.320 maybe even support it. So, you know, for for a practitioner who was involved 235 00:16:24.320 --> 00:16:27.990 either with a C X title or not, I mean, you also you already addressed the 236 00:16:27.990 --> 00:16:32.260 question I had, which is where you normally no, it's fine. We're normally 237 00:16:32.260 --> 00:16:35.200 you know, where you normally plug into an organization. It really is anywhere, 238 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:40.170 because again, this is transcendent. C X is transcendent of anyone. Team or 239 00:16:40.170 --> 00:16:43.970 department as we as most of our businesses are structured today, and 240 00:16:43.970 --> 00:16:47.700 I'm glad that that we're raising up this conversation. I can, you know, get 241 00:16:47.700 --> 00:16:51.350 200 episodes of this show and continue to grow the audience. And and they're 242 00:16:51.350 --> 00:16:55.870 still like we're just barely scratching the surface. But what do you normally 243 00:16:55.870 --> 00:16:59.250 see? Maybe from a practitioners point of view, no matter whether they're 244 00:16:59.250 --> 00:17:02.870 doing a small scale or a large scale project, what are some tips there in 245 00:17:02.870 --> 00:17:07.150 terms of building that trust? Generating that buy in may be proving 246 00:17:07.150 --> 00:17:12.099 some of that RL y and like consistently managing up slash selling up in a way 247 00:17:12.099 --> 00:17:16.740 that is not too cumbersome. Obviously, cultures are different, so I'm asking a 248 00:17:16.740 --> 00:17:20.230 really hard question for uniform. But any any tips you have around this would 249 00:17:20.230 --> 00:17:20.859 be awesome. 250 00:17:22.040 --> 00:17:26.270 There's a lot. Um, so let me just start with the most obvious one. Uh, 251 00:17:26.740 --> 00:17:30.680 especially on the experience side. We just did a podcast on this internally 252 00:17:30.690 --> 00:17:33.360 today, actually. So I'm gonna I'm gonna lead with it, but 253 00:17:34.940 --> 00:17:41.550 having a survey that's too long. So if you are asking a customer to fill out a 254 00:17:41.560 --> 00:17:46.440 five page survey with C set and 100 questions like you're trying to make 255 00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:49.610 the experience better. But in fact you're actually probably producing 256 00:17:49.610 --> 00:17:52.420 something that's even worse than your intended results of the survey, which 257 00:17:52.420 --> 00:17:55.440 is a terrible experience to fill out that thing. That's a short one, right? 258 00:17:55.440 --> 00:18:00.330 So let's just everybody knows that we hate long service. Move on. Don't don't 259 00:18:00.330 --> 00:18:03.760 send a five pitch service. It's just not something you should do. Number two 260 00:18:03.760 --> 00:18:08.260 is not focusing on action. So again, back to that point of you're not 261 00:18:08.270 --> 00:18:12.330 running data for analysis. You're running data to address customer issues, 262 00:18:12.330 --> 00:18:18.370 customer problems and integrate those and better your business as a result. 263 00:18:18.370 --> 00:18:21.700 So I think we're a lot of those practitioners go wrong is they get this 264 00:18:21.700 --> 00:18:26.090 data. They run a bunch of like, statistical analysis, and they try to 265 00:18:26.100 --> 00:18:29.620 feed up. This is what they're saying and before, like by the time you do 266 00:18:29.620 --> 00:18:33.740 that to the sea level, it's probably like a week later. Still, you gotta you 267 00:18:33.740 --> 00:18:37.520 gotta take the feedback act in real time, fall up with your customers, do 268 00:18:37.520 --> 00:18:41.670 everything you can to resolve their issues or asking for referrals if their 269 00:18:41.670 --> 00:18:45.810 promoters, but then report back to the sea level and say, Hey, this is what we 270 00:18:45.810 --> 00:18:49.770 did as a result of the feedback and this is kind of what we gained out of 271 00:18:49.770 --> 00:18:52.790 it. So if you have a referral program, you can actually tie that revenue 272 00:18:52.790 --> 00:18:56.700 directly to your experience program again asking for referral, tying it to 273 00:18:56.700 --> 00:19:01.300 the revenue in your system, keeping that tally of we generated $100,000 274 00:19:01.300 --> 00:19:04.870 from referral business from this experience program. So it's coming back 275 00:19:04.870 --> 00:19:07.410 to that disconnect, and I keep coming back that Ethan and where it's 276 00:19:07.410 --> 00:19:10.420 literally if you're having the right conversations at the C level, you 277 00:19:10.420 --> 00:19:16.860 should be saying we generated $100,000 of revenue from referrals this quarter 278 00:19:16.870 --> 00:19:21.660 from this experience program. And by the way, our MPs went from a 50 to 65. 279 00:19:22.140 --> 00:19:24.900 That's the order. You should have that discussion, and it's not the other way 280 00:19:24.900 --> 00:19:27.440 around. It's not saying we have a great nine p s courts. Not seeing our health 281 00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:30.750 score is 50. I mean, the CEO is gonna be like, all right, great. What's the 282 00:19:30.750 --> 00:19:34.510 health score and what do I care? So I think focusing on the right thing is 283 00:19:34.510 --> 00:19:38.370 really, If I could do it at a high level, focus on the right things and 284 00:19:38.370 --> 00:19:43.170 honestly, the other the final piece of maybe and on just on this piece is, uh, 285 00:19:44.340 --> 00:19:48.610 not distributing the data widely enough. So, for example, we talked about 286 00:19:48.610 --> 00:19:53.760 customer success and the think about CS, and I think they've done a ton to 287 00:19:53.760 --> 00:19:57.660 further the space, for sure. And I don't I really insensitive about this. 288 00:19:57.660 --> 00:19:59.670 I don't want to knock them in any way because I think they're doing a great 289 00:19:59.670 --> 00:20:05.630 job and making companies focus on the right things. But just fundamentally, 290 00:20:05.630 --> 00:20:09.330 at a departmental level, If you're relying on the customer success 291 00:20:09.330 --> 00:20:12.270 department to run your experience program, you're going to create a silo 292 00:20:12.280 --> 00:20:17.610 with that data. So again, if I was a practitioner, I would try to make that 293 00:20:17.610 --> 00:20:21.080 data as widely available as possible. But make it relevant. That's that's 294 00:20:21.080 --> 00:20:25.320 another really big miss by these guys, is that they? I just think that kick 295 00:20:25.320 --> 00:20:28.650 out the score, and that's all people care about. No, make it relevant. So 296 00:20:28.650 --> 00:20:33.100 look, if you're a sales rep, you want to give that sales are up a dashboard 297 00:20:33.100 --> 00:20:37.440 that tracks their top 15 accounts. Give them feedback specifically on each one 298 00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:40.210 of those accounts. Tell them what they should do for follow up actions. Be 299 00:20:40.210 --> 00:20:43.810 prescriptive. That's really hard to do for a lot of organizations, but if you 300 00:20:43.810 --> 00:20:47.660 get there, it's generally a very, very good thing for the bottom line. Again. 301 00:20:48.240 --> 00:20:50.950 You want to create that great experience, but you also want to tie it 302 00:20:50.950 --> 00:20:54.560 to business outcomes. And that's hard for a lot of companies throughout their 303 00:20:54.560 --> 00:21:00.330 head around providing that relevant data at the right spot in the 304 00:21:00.330 --> 00:21:04.580 organization. Yeah, so many challenges in there. The first is getting the data 305 00:21:04.580 --> 00:21:08.220 coordinated, which is obviously something that you've built an entire 306 00:21:08.220 --> 00:21:12.260 business around doing, which I'm sure you have competitors in this space as 307 00:21:12.260 --> 00:21:15.920 well, which speaks to the challenge of that. And I'm sure for people who are 308 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:19.480 listening, especially depending on the maturity of your company, the maturity 309 00:21:19.480 --> 00:21:24.170 of your data culture, um, appropriate levels of data literacy in these 310 00:21:24.170 --> 00:21:28.980 various seats in the organization. Assuming most of that's put together, I 311 00:21:28.980 --> 00:21:34.240 don't think a lot of what you're saying would be crazy heavy lift. But for the 312 00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:38.690 rest of us that are somewhere short and some of those capacities. You know, my 313 00:21:38.690 --> 00:21:42.230 head is just spinning, thinking about trying to map revenue to some of the 314 00:21:42.230 --> 00:21:46.950 things that we're doing. And it's obviously very challenging what are 315 00:21:47.040 --> 00:21:54.130 from again, the gap around. Maybe what practitioners want, right? Let's go 316 00:21:54.130 --> 00:21:58.400 back to a customer centric culture, right? That's something. That's 317 00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:01.070 something maybe you might hear out of the C suite. And we have a customer 318 00:22:01.070 --> 00:22:04.020 centric culture were very customer centric where we want to be more 319 00:22:04.020 --> 00:22:08.570 customer centric. I think on the front lines is where it really obviously 320 00:22:08.570 --> 00:22:14.260 comes to life because that's where the most contact is. So, um, have you 321 00:22:14.270 --> 00:22:18.930 quantified in any way like or seen a project that's around a customer 322 00:22:18.930 --> 00:22:22.990 centric culture and being able to report that up in an effective manner 323 00:22:22.990 --> 00:22:26.940 kind of along the lines of what you already shared with us? Definitely. So, 324 00:22:26.950 --> 00:22:31.420 uh, this kind of really goes after the culture peace, honestly, and that's 325 00:22:31.420 --> 00:22:34.650 that's really, um, I would add this to your previous question. Actually, one 326 00:22:34.650 --> 00:22:38.160 of the biggest challenges is like getting the right culture in place to 327 00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:42.630 make this a success, and I think, listen to your podcast a lot of people 328 00:22:42.630 --> 00:22:46.120 talk about this, Um and it's it's true because it is a hard thing to do. And 329 00:22:46.120 --> 00:22:50.400 it takes a very hate to say, the word but politically savvy champion of the 330 00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:55.020 program to operate throughout the departments. Because, honestly, what 331 00:22:55.020 --> 00:22:56.060 you're doing is you're providing 332 00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:01.470 direct feedback that may put these frontline people in trouble, right? 333 00:23:01.470 --> 00:23:05.840 Like a customer had an issue and they are not happy. And it's tied directly 334 00:23:05.840 --> 00:23:09.390 to that front line person. What's their incentive to buy into this program if 335 00:23:09.390 --> 00:23:12.830 they know that could potentially get them in trouble or whatever it is right? 336 00:23:12.840 --> 00:23:16.970 So you really have to create that that safe environment or that the culture of 337 00:23:16.980 --> 00:23:20.670 continuous feedback loops with that customer. In order for that to be 338 00:23:20.670 --> 00:23:25.070 really successful, because the last thing you want to do is roll this out 339 00:23:25.070 --> 00:23:28.380 and then have again that front line just really despise the program, not 340 00:23:28.380 --> 00:23:34.700 buy in. So it takes a very courageous champion politically savvy, that can 341 00:23:34.710 --> 00:23:40.340 operate throughout the departments. But it takes training, and it takes empathy 342 00:23:40.370 --> 00:23:44.270 at the champion level at the C level at the front line level. I think it really 343 00:23:44.640 --> 00:23:48.690 comes down to putting the things in place that they need to be successful. 344 00:23:48.700 --> 00:23:52.400 So a lot of our customers have great stories around this, 345 00:23:53.940 --> 00:24:00.210 but one of them is really one of my actually. His name is Carrie. Uh, and 346 00:24:00.210 --> 00:24:04.080 he is a previous customer. So we actually signed them up as a customer, 347 00:24:04.080 --> 00:24:08.110 and he ended up coming to customer. Engage. And he's now a VP of our 348 00:24:08.120 --> 00:24:14.260 program and education. Uh, yeah, it was great. It's a cool story, right? But he 349 00:24:14.260 --> 00:24:19.830 set up a program where there was a monthly contests. There was recognition 350 00:24:19.830 --> 00:24:25.410 there was incentive to go above and beyond and the way he did that, as he 351 00:24:25.410 --> 00:24:29.830 systematized the process and trained entire frontline staff, he went on site. 352 00:24:29.840 --> 00:24:33.080 It was the first person there to talk about. This is what we're doing. This 353 00:24:33.080 --> 00:24:36.570 is why it's important. This is why you should care. He built an amazing 354 00:24:36.570 --> 00:24:39.630 training program, and he comes from a great background of training of, uh, he 355 00:24:39.630 --> 00:24:43.640 did a lot of the training for container store. He did a lot of the training for 356 00:24:43.640 --> 00:24:49.530 Gamestop, so it really it takes a talented trainer to make sure that 357 00:24:49.540 --> 00:24:52.940 everybody understands why we're doing this, you need a launch event where 358 00:24:52.940 --> 00:24:55.840 everybody gets behind it, maybe even an internal brand. We've seen that work 359 00:24:55.850 --> 00:24:59.910 really well with our customers to It's like customer care initiative or like, 360 00:24:59.920 --> 00:25:03.370 uh, we have a love your accounts. That's our kind of internal brand for 361 00:25:03.370 --> 00:25:08.190 our program that goes a long way and having that experience tied to, like 362 00:25:08.190 --> 00:25:13.450 maybe your core values or something like that. It's super powerful to 363 00:25:13.450 --> 00:25:17.600 really embed that in your organization, because then everybody buys in. They 364 00:25:17.600 --> 00:25:21.970 know why they're doing it. That's not a question anymore and they want to do it. 365 00:25:21.970 --> 00:25:26.150 They want to go above and beyond. You can't You just can't force people to do 366 00:25:26.150 --> 00:25:29.250 anything. You have to make them believe if you have to get that emotional tie 367 00:25:29.250 --> 00:25:35.060 to the program in order for them to really give them, give it their best. 368 00:25:35.060 --> 00:25:39.860 And I think that's that's where we see the difference between a good program 369 00:25:39.860 --> 00:25:45.740 and a great program man and that I can absolutely see it. It reminds me of a 370 00:25:45.740 --> 00:25:48.850 conversation we had on this show with Chris Wallace. He works at a 371 00:25:48.860 --> 00:25:53.710 consultancy called Interview Group I N N E. R. Interview. And he helps bridge 372 00:25:53.710 --> 00:25:58.180 that gap and create internal campaigns and training and education and like the 373 00:25:58.180 --> 00:26:01.650 sustained campaign with multiple touch points. And, of course, we call that 374 00:26:01.650 --> 00:26:05.550 one marketing to your employees, not just your customers, because that's 375 00:26:05.550 --> 00:26:08.410 what it takes. It's so interesting in hearing you deliver that response. I 376 00:26:08.410 --> 00:26:13.330 just kept thinking, you know, Okay, this is why you need a dedicated 377 00:26:13.340 --> 00:26:18.170 resource, whether it's an individual or a team, because that's not a part time 378 00:26:18.170 --> 00:26:23.730 job, right? Like that's not a oh, and I'll also do that. It's like 15% of my 379 00:26:23.730 --> 00:26:27.530 job, because whatever. I mean, I can I can see these characteristics. I I 380 00:26:27.530 --> 00:26:30.260 really like the way you ran down some of the characteristics you're looking 381 00:26:30.260 --> 00:26:36.230 for. You definitely need to be able to move in a savvy way, from executive 382 00:26:36.230 --> 00:26:41.110 meetings to CS meetings to sales meeting, marketing meetings to create a 383 00:26:41.110 --> 00:26:44.580 culture where you can be honest with one another, you use the word safe. I 384 00:26:44.580 --> 00:26:47.850 think that's a really good word that I think everyone can understand. It's 385 00:26:47.850 --> 00:26:52.340 safe to be who you are to try your hardest and to fail at it and not feel 386 00:26:52.340 --> 00:26:56.260 threatened by it because we're all in this together. You're 100% right about 387 00:26:56.260 --> 00:27:02.590 this idea of creating the cognitive and emotional buy in of why Why does this 388 00:27:02.590 --> 00:27:06.250 matter? Why me? Like a sense of purpose? Because we all know that sense of 389 00:27:06.250 --> 00:27:10.510 purpose is what helps us persevere through hard, difficult or confusing 390 00:27:10.510 --> 00:27:13.780 things. And I know all of us, you know, whether you're listening and you're in 391 00:27:13.780 --> 00:27:18.240 a SAS company or no matter what business you're in, um, I'm certain 392 00:27:18.250 --> 00:27:22.550 that everyone listening can think of a program that was launched at one of the 393 00:27:22.550 --> 00:27:25.350 companies that they were at at some point in their career, where it was 394 00:27:25.350 --> 00:27:31.720 like it was either D o a. Because, you know, not again, right? This is the 395 00:27:31.720 --> 00:27:35.840 fourth one we're trying here the past, you know, nine months, we have a new 396 00:27:35.840 --> 00:27:40.630 consultant. So we have a new thing or something, or, you know it's launched 397 00:27:40.630 --> 00:27:44.170 and it's just one person's mission, and no one ever buys in because that whole 398 00:27:44.170 --> 00:27:49.850 step was missed. It's just really, really painful. Yeah, reminds me of one 399 00:27:49.860 --> 00:27:54.050 of our customers that, um his name is Luis and he works for Anheuser Busch 400 00:27:54.060 --> 00:27:58.800 shoutout to Louise. But he did a small POC with us, right? So he needed to 401 00:27:58.800 --> 00:28:02.390 prove the concept. And so we did a small measurement of one of the 402 00:28:02.390 --> 00:28:07.090 countries. And then what he did is he took that POC data and went from 403 00:28:07.090 --> 00:28:09.970 country to country to country to country. I mean, I think he hit up like 404 00:28:09.970 --> 00:28:14.530 30 countries. He did a world tour, presenting this data to not only see 405 00:28:14.530 --> 00:28:17.090 levels but like the front line people and say, Wow, isn't this interesting? 406 00:28:17.090 --> 00:28:19.660 Wow, isn't this interesting? Look at this amazing data when you like the 407 00:28:19.660 --> 00:28:23.790 same data what I mean by like, politically savvy, but also like a 408 00:28:23.790 --> 00:28:26.570 champion like somebody that's going to take this on their back. And you're 409 00:28:26.570 --> 00:28:30.930 right when you say it's not a part time thing, that he was 100% dedicated to 410 00:28:30.930 --> 00:28:35.390 make this thing a reality. And he and that was a global program. Anheuser 411 00:28:35.390 --> 00:28:40.770 Busch is obviously this massive company, right? He got bought by in from every 412 00:28:40.770 --> 00:28:45.330 single country division at Anheuser Busch and the corporate level by doing 413 00:28:45.330 --> 00:28:49.290 this kind of world tour. And this was his job for like, two years and we 414 00:28:49.290 --> 00:28:52.770 rolled out globally with these guys. But it was also that wouldn't have 415 00:28:52.770 --> 00:28:58.100 happened without Louise like that. That was a special guy that spent a ton of 416 00:28:58.100 --> 00:29:02.760 time because he believed in what this brought to the organization. And if 417 00:29:02.760 --> 00:29:06.320 you're passionate about something like that, I mean, people will buy into it. 418 00:29:06.330 --> 00:29:10.700 You just need to make the rounds. And again, it's not your point of like, I 419 00:29:10.700 --> 00:29:13.420 want to do this. So this is what we're gonna be doing that doesn't work like 420 00:29:13.420 --> 00:29:16.430 you gotta You have to make the rounds, You have to shake hands, you have to 421 00:29:16.430 --> 00:29:20.390 kiss babies. And it's it's a political maneuver and and a lot of companies 422 00:29:20.390 --> 00:29:24.560 just don't have that champion. And that's one again. One of the million 423 00:29:24.560 --> 00:29:28.410 ways these things can fail if you don't have that passionate champion, and this 424 00:29:28.410 --> 00:29:31.490 can be really tough. Yeah, I love your call to make the rounds. I mean, that's 425 00:29:31.490 --> 00:29:35.550 where you that's where you figure out. I mean, you probably have some sense of 426 00:29:35.560 --> 00:29:40.690 generically speaking personas. You know, the various stakeholders involved in 427 00:29:40.690 --> 00:29:44.360 what their motivations are and what's going to light them up and what their 428 00:29:44.360 --> 00:29:47.620 participation needs to look like you might have three of those. You might 429 00:29:47.620 --> 00:29:51.740 have 30 of those, but making the rounds is how you really dial that. It's just 430 00:29:51.740 --> 00:29:54.360 like talking to your customers, no matter what role you're in the 431 00:29:54.360 --> 00:29:58.560 organization like, that's how you close the gap between what you think what you 432 00:29:58.560 --> 00:30:01.800 expect or what you're seeing in a spreadsheet and what is actually 433 00:30:01.800 --> 00:30:04.970 happening is like that. You can't I love the call to make the rounds. I 434 00:30:04.970 --> 00:30:10.250 think it's exactly right. Um, we don't have time to go all in on this thing. 435 00:30:10.250 --> 00:30:13.240 But you shared with me in advance of the call, and you already mentioned it 436 00:30:13.240 --> 00:30:18.030 once. This N p s and c x benchmarks report that you did with some folks at 437 00:30:18.030 --> 00:30:22.950 M i t. You did it at customer gauge, and it draws this line between you and 438 00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:26.480 because I just think this is really important. You draw this line between 439 00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:30.860 traditional NPS and traditional NPS activities, which you describe as 440 00:30:30.940 --> 00:30:35.150 measure and act right, Like we got the score. We got this feedback, and now 441 00:30:35.150 --> 00:30:37.860 we're going to do something about it, too. And this has been a theme in the 442 00:30:37.860 --> 00:30:41.720 conversation all along. So this is going to be kind of reinforcing some of 443 00:30:41.720 --> 00:30:45.580 the points you've already made. Perhaps. And, uh, you know, in a little closed 444 00:30:45.590 --> 00:30:52.130 piece here, So versus traditional NPSU set up monetized nps as an approach and 445 00:30:52.130 --> 00:30:56.980 it's a set of activities, and that is measure, act and and grow. Can you just 446 00:30:56.980 --> 00:31:03.420 give a good pass on that To really reinforce maybe the shortcomings of NPS 447 00:31:03.420 --> 00:31:09.540 as it's been done in a traditional way? Yeah. So again, it's tough because we 448 00:31:09.540 --> 00:31:14.050 love NPS. We If you look at that, yeah, you're talking about using it more and 449 00:31:14.050 --> 00:31:17.090 getting more value out of it. Yeah, I know, I know. But it's it's so 450 00:31:17.090 --> 00:31:20.170 difficult from the marketing standpoint to say, you know what? MPs isn't enough 451 00:31:20.170 --> 00:31:25.190 anymore because we were So I mean, my CEO is good friends with Fred, right? 452 00:31:25.190 --> 00:31:31.680 Tell the founder of MPs, um, but what we found is when companies just rely on 453 00:31:31.680 --> 00:31:36.960 MPs, it's again tough to make that connection to that revenue line and and 454 00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:39.660 really focus on the things that are important. If you focus on the score 455 00:31:40.340 --> 00:31:43.960 and a lot of companies do, and a lot of companies do just focus on the score. 456 00:31:44.440 --> 00:31:48.860 What ends up happening is you're just measuring and the next logical question 457 00:31:48.860 --> 00:31:52.060 from a C level. Executives. Great. Our score went up. What does that mean, 458 00:31:52.740 --> 00:31:59.140 Right? And so how do you answer that? If you don't really know what that 459 00:31:59.140 --> 00:32:05.270 means? I think it might be a leading indicator of retention. Sure, that's 460 00:32:05.270 --> 00:32:08.620 the talk track, right? That's what Fred laid out in the ultimate question. The 461 00:32:08.620 --> 00:32:14.690 one number grow. But our data just shows that there's so much discrepancy 462 00:32:14.690 --> 00:32:20.010 in the way these programs are run, that it's not always the case. So what we've 463 00:32:20.010 --> 00:32:25.490 done is we've suggested that there is a new way to do it, which is taking NPS 464 00:32:25.490 --> 00:32:30.470 and tying it to revenue. What God means If you get a score for an account, how 465 00:32:30.470 --> 00:32:34.150 much revenue does that bring in but also making sure your program is 466 00:32:34.150 --> 00:32:37.390 embedded with other activities, like again. That example I used about the 467 00:32:37.390 --> 00:32:40.650 salesperson get them the information they need to Upsell and cross sell 468 00:32:40.650 --> 00:32:44.770 tighter experience program as a result of their feedback from that account, or, 469 00:32:45.640 --> 00:32:49.280 if you have a promoter come in, make sure that they get the referral offer 470 00:32:49.280 --> 00:32:51.890 right? Give them an entire in your referral program of the experience 471 00:32:51.890 --> 00:32:57.150 program. These up sell, cross sell referrals. These three small things go 472 00:32:57.150 --> 00:33:00.850 a very long way to tie in ry or a revenue number to your experience 473 00:33:00.850 --> 00:33:04.330 program again. If you do that, that's what we considered monetizing that 474 00:33:04.330 --> 00:33:08.010 promoter. Our new thing that we're we've really and we've been evolving 475 00:33:08.010 --> 00:33:12.370 over the last five years since I've been here started with MPs. So then 476 00:33:12.370 --> 00:33:14.750 went to monetize that promoter with that report. And now we're on account 477 00:33:14.750 --> 00:33:17.990 experience, which it's like it's monetizing that promoter. We still tie 478 00:33:17.990 --> 00:33:20.700 everything the revenue, but it's like you need those additional data points, 479 00:33:20.700 --> 00:33:24.410 especially as companies evolve the transform digitally. You need some 480 00:33:24.410 --> 00:33:27.780 other signals and again to our original point. Sometimes absence of signal is 481 00:33:27.780 --> 00:33:31.400 more important than these signals coming in, so it's kind of evolved 482 00:33:31.410 --> 00:33:34.300 since then, but the real the core of it is still there, which is monetizing 483 00:33:34.300 --> 00:33:38.260 that promoter. But that's really just making a call for these organizations 484 00:33:38.260 --> 00:33:43.760 to buying the MPs but tied to revenue tied to our Oh, I tell you to up sell 485 00:33:43.760 --> 00:33:48.430 cross sell referral activity and report on that to your seal because that's our 486 00:33:48.430 --> 00:33:52.070 data with M. I. T. Shows that if you do that you grow faster than your 487 00:33:52.080 --> 00:33:55.280 competition. You grow faster than everybody else. That's doing that type 488 00:33:55.280 --> 00:33:59.710 of just basic on PS activity. If you tied to growth activities like upset 489 00:33:59.710 --> 00:34:03.370 across the referrals, it's going to result in a faster growth trajectory 490 00:34:03.370 --> 00:34:07.110 for your company. Fantastic. And for those who are listening, that is a good 491 00:34:07.120 --> 00:34:12.810 passage to click that 62nd or 32nd back button, take another pass. That is what 492 00:34:12.810 --> 00:34:17.880 we need to be doing with NPS if we want to. A sustained and continue to get 493 00:34:17.880 --> 00:34:22.770 resources for our programs is tying it to revenue, making it easy to to report 494 00:34:22.770 --> 00:34:26.300 up and showing people the numbers they actually care about. You know, it's 495 00:34:26.300 --> 00:34:28.560 hard to get, you know, if you don't know anything about, it's hard to get 496 00:34:28.560 --> 00:34:32.170 excited about a health score or NPS score and you know, and then you got to 497 00:34:32.170 --> 00:34:35.840 anchor to, like, where was it last week or last month or last year, And how did 498 00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:40.360 we move it? This is where it's at because everyone understands revenue. 499 00:34:40.639 --> 00:34:44.130 You are a self described customer experience advocate for your headline 500 00:34:44.130 --> 00:34:48.920 on LinkedIn In a moment of advocacy here, where do we need to go with C X 501 00:34:48.920 --> 00:34:53.139 overall, like, where do you feel like we are? What are you so excited about 502 00:34:53.139 --> 00:34:56.860 within C X and and maybe where are we going with it At kind of a high level? 503 00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:02.280 Yeah, I think, um, I'm excited. I think this is one of the most exciting times 504 00:35:02.280 --> 00:35:06.950 of being sex right now, So just seeing it grow over the last five years even 505 00:35:06.950 --> 00:35:12.430 is, is astonishing. So I've been in the space for about I think it's eight or 506 00:35:12.430 --> 00:35:17.670 nine years now. I ran basically the C X program for C. I T. Bank back in the 507 00:35:17.670 --> 00:35:22.670 day, and I think what's happening right now is customer success is having kind 508 00:35:22.670 --> 00:35:27.220 of a big moment right now where I think everybody is realizing, especially in 509 00:35:27.220 --> 00:35:32.100 SAS, that with the whole global situation, people need to focus on 510 00:35:32.100 --> 00:35:35.250 their customer bases. They need to focus on their campuses. So that's more 511 00:35:35.250 --> 00:35:39.410 important than ever for a lot of companies, because a lot of acquisition 512 00:35:39.410 --> 00:35:43.300 pipeline's dried up during covid and and it's not the worst thing that 513 00:35:43.300 --> 00:35:47.560 happened during that period, obviously, but it is a result of what happened. So 514 00:35:47.560 --> 00:35:50.070 a lot of people looked inward and made sure that they could grow their 515 00:35:50.070 --> 00:35:54.850 compasses to the best of their ability. So I think it's going to take a 516 00:35:55.640 --> 00:35:58.970 definitely a more important seat moving forward. I almost think that 517 00:36:00.230 --> 00:36:02.660 it's going to be a leading differentiator for a lot of companies 518 00:36:02.660 --> 00:36:08.540 like I. I think that the days of growth at all costs and spending $200,000 on 519 00:36:09.030 --> 00:36:12.580 Facebook ads to acquire new business I think those days are gone. I think you 520 00:36:12.580 --> 00:36:16.250 know, we might have some lingering effect there, but you can see the 521 00:36:16.260 --> 00:36:21.590 baseball boycott going on. I think experience and customer experience will 522 00:36:21.590 --> 00:36:25.060 be the new growth lover for organizations. They're going to realize 523 00:36:25.060 --> 00:36:30.560 that if they spend the amount of effort and experiences and creating 524 00:36:30.560 --> 00:36:34.780 experiences that they're doing acquiring new customers, it will be 525 00:36:34.780 --> 00:36:39.050 significant growth at a much, much cheaper cost. And I just don't think 526 00:36:39.060 --> 00:36:41.710 some of these larger companies are there yet. They don't really realize 527 00:36:41.710 --> 00:36:46.410 that they have a lot of what they already need built into the experiences 528 00:36:46.410 --> 00:36:51.410 or their customer base. Um, so I think, you know, next 5, 10 years, I fully 529 00:36:51.410 --> 00:36:55.750 expect that companies are going to best heavily in this thing. I I fully expect 530 00:36:55.760 --> 00:37:00.510 that it will be more than a part time role. I think every company should have 531 00:37:00.510 --> 00:37:06.660 a full time position dedicated to the account or customer experience. I think 532 00:37:07.130 --> 00:37:11.830 customer success not to keep rallying on them, But I think that they will 533 00:37:11.830 --> 00:37:17.630 need to figure out a way to go wider. The organization. I think that's going 534 00:37:17.630 --> 00:37:20.400 to be something that can figure out. I think there's a lot of talented people 535 00:37:20.400 --> 00:37:24.390 in C. S. I just think that there's a trend that I've been seeing in SAS, 536 00:37:24.390 --> 00:37:28.620 where people are actually rebelling against the whole customer success role 537 00:37:28.630 --> 00:37:31.210 in general, and they're going back to relationship managers. I've seen that a 538 00:37:31.210 --> 00:37:36.220 couple companies locally in Boston, Um, so I think continuing to prove the 539 00:37:36.220 --> 00:37:42.350 value on CS is important, but again, if you tie it to that revenue, if you tied 540 00:37:42.350 --> 00:37:46.680 to the ry, um, there will be a bright future for everybody involved. I love 541 00:37:46.680 --> 00:37:49.980 it. It's just it's when I think about it, and that was awesome. Thank you for 542 00:37:49.980 --> 00:37:54.720 sharing that. When I think about that, I just think it's just not only 543 00:37:54.730 --> 00:38:00.440 obviously better for customers when you approach business that way, it's also 544 00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:04.060 so much more satisfying. For the employees that were just doing, it just 545 00:38:04.060 --> 00:38:07.230 seems like a move towards doing the right things the right way and really 546 00:38:07.230 --> 00:38:12.370 focusing on what we want, which is satisfied. Customers. No. One, No one I 547 00:38:12.370 --> 00:38:16.650 know that serious about their career is interested in being in a turn and burn 548 00:38:16.650 --> 00:38:20.370 environment. And so I like that this is a mainstream conversation because we're 549 00:38:20.370 --> 00:38:23.600 all going to get all going to get better for it. This has been awesome. 550 00:38:23.600 --> 00:38:26.690 If you're listening to this conversation with Ian Luck and you've 551 00:38:26.690 --> 00:38:30.220 enjoyed it, I've got a couple more that I know you will like. I'm thinking of 552 00:38:30.230 --> 00:38:34.200 Episode 36 with Sarah Thomas. She is the co founder and executive director 553 00:38:34.200 --> 00:38:38.070 of the Wharton Interactive at, of course, at the Wharton School at 554 00:38:38.070 --> 00:38:43.110 University of Pennsylvania. And that one I thought of that one for this 555 00:38:43.110 --> 00:38:47.310 conversation because their definition of customer centric city and the 556 00:38:47.310 --> 00:38:50.870 customer centric city playbook, she wrote with one of her colleagues really 557 00:38:50.870 --> 00:38:54.910 focuses on lifetime value. So, you know, we're typically we think of customer 558 00:38:54.910 --> 00:38:59.140 centric. City is this kind of soft sided thing. She's like It is lifetime 559 00:38:59.140 --> 00:39:03.170 value. Those two were inseparable. And so that's Sarah Towns on Episode 36 the 560 00:39:03.170 --> 00:39:07.860 financial side of C X. Which customers should you invest in? And then, more 561 00:39:07.860 --> 00:39:13.480 recently, Ben Smith? Well, he's a C, X and C s designer and strategist, and we 562 00:39:13.480 --> 00:39:17.430 call that one restoring the human factor to fulfill the big C extreme. He 563 00:39:17.430 --> 00:39:21.810 also sees a C X gap, and we do talk kind of like nuts and bolts. What does 564 00:39:21.810 --> 00:39:26.990 this look like inside an organization? That's been Smith well on Episode 66 I 565 00:39:26.990 --> 00:39:30.350 already mentioned Chris Wallace marketing to your employees, not just 566 00:39:30.350 --> 00:39:35.760 your customers. That one was Episode 73. So this is an ongoing conversation. 567 00:39:35.770 --> 00:39:39.610 Everyone is unique and nuanced. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise 568 00:39:39.610 --> 00:39:43.460 here, Ian. Before I let you go, though, I've got a couple opportunities. Slash 569 00:39:43.470 --> 00:39:47.750 your personal curiosities and opportunities for you to kind of give 570 00:39:47.750 --> 00:39:51.620 shouts out to people and companies that you respect. So first thank you 571 00:39:51.620 --> 00:39:55.410 mentioned someone has had a positive impact on your life or your career and 572 00:39:55.410 --> 00:39:59.240 then give a shout out to a brand or a company that you really respect for the 573 00:39:59.240 --> 00:40:04.480 experience that they deliver for you as a customer. Yeah. So the person I would 574 00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:08.970 say is my mentor, Yanni. Um, he's actually my uncle, but he is a I 575 00:40:08.970 --> 00:40:12.220 described as an old school O g. He worked for Sun Microsystems. He was the 576 00:40:12.220 --> 00:40:17.520 VP of marketing and sales globally there in their heyday. So he's been a 577 00:40:18.010 --> 00:40:21.290 just amazing resource for me from a marketing standpoint, but also, he was 578 00:40:21.290 --> 00:40:25.540 a big C X guy before it was big. I mean, they he really cared about the 579 00:40:25.540 --> 00:40:29.130 experience he was creating from the both marketing and sales side. So again 580 00:40:29.130 --> 00:40:32.530 shouting out Johnny, I've done this before, but I think, uh, I cannot 581 00:40:32.910 --> 00:40:35.990 repair that guy enough for what he's done for me. So again, mentorship is 582 00:40:36.410 --> 00:40:39.630 super super important in this world. I definitely recommend everybody have 583 00:40:39.630 --> 00:40:44.160 somebody like that in their life, and the brand said, I think I mean, I could 584 00:40:44.160 --> 00:40:47.620 go for the obvious ones like Apple, Amazon, all that crap. But I think one 585 00:40:47.620 --> 00:40:52.250 of the more interesting ones that I've come across in the last, you know, year. 586 00:40:52.250 --> 00:40:57.760 So is this company called Sweetwater? Um, they are a musician, kind of their 587 00:40:57.770 --> 00:41:02.430 music manufacturer. They e commerce, they sell guitars, all that stuff. I'm 588 00:41:02.430 --> 00:41:05.830 a musician, but they take a really interesting approach. Most other 589 00:41:05.830 --> 00:41:09.800 companies out there like Guitar Center. They don't have a dedicated 590 00:41:09.800 --> 00:41:12.660 relationship manager. They basically are, like here. This is what we got. 591 00:41:12.670 --> 00:41:16.200 Take it. Sweetwater is really interesting where they have this 592 00:41:16.210 --> 00:41:19.970 relationship manager that is reaching out to me. And it's not like corporate 593 00:41:19.970 --> 00:41:23.840 brand. It's like this random guy. His name is Preston and he'll hit me up. 594 00:41:23.850 --> 00:41:27.450 And when, like, based off of my past purchase history, he knows I like 595 00:41:27.450 --> 00:41:30.270 Fender. He knows I like Gibson stuff, and he'll basically said, Hey, do you 596 00:41:30.270 --> 00:41:33.270 see this new thing that released? Check it out here. I was thinking of you, You 597 00:41:33.270 --> 00:41:37.070 know about this, blah, blah, blah. It was really personalized. It must be 598 00:41:37.080 --> 00:41:39.970 really hard to do at scale, so I'm guessing they have a good amount of 599 00:41:39.970 --> 00:41:44.440 relationship managers on on staff, and they have a low amount of accounts, But 600 00:41:44.810 --> 00:41:49.250 not only that, the product and like the experience they create Every time I get 601 00:41:49.250 --> 00:41:53.770 a package from them, they send a little bag of candy. So my kids like you can 602 00:41:53.770 --> 00:41:58.830 imagine, right like they want to order more stuff. Yeah, exactly. So they're 603 00:41:58.830 --> 00:42:01.020 literally hitting me up like, when are we getting something else? And I 604 00:42:01.030 --> 00:42:05.490 obviously have to run it by the wife. But, um, it's so cool because, like 605 00:42:05.500 --> 00:42:08.190 everybody gets excited about it. I'm excited because I get my music gear. 606 00:42:08.190 --> 00:42:12.250 The kids are excited because the candy and it's just it's such an amazing 607 00:42:12.250 --> 00:42:16.260 thing they've created, and it probably I think they know it, but they maybe 608 00:42:16.260 --> 00:42:21.640 don't know the level of experience that created for me and my family, but it's 609 00:42:21.640 --> 00:42:25.200 a stupid small thing. And but I could go on a rant about everything else they 610 00:42:25.200 --> 00:42:29.160 do. But it's they just do such a great job about being personalized, inhuman 611 00:42:29.160 --> 00:42:35.060 and like a kind of gigantic e commerce type uh, landscape. It's so awesome. 612 00:42:35.060 --> 00:42:39.870 It's such a great example of human to human at scale. It reminds me I don't 613 00:42:39.870 --> 00:42:43.640 know if you've read. Matt Squeezes context, marketing, Revolution or seen 614 00:42:43.640 --> 00:42:47.630 him speaker present. But he he loves to share a similar story about the 615 00:42:47.630 --> 00:42:52.390 gearheads at backcountry dot com, which is similar, except it's outdoor gear. 616 00:42:52.400 --> 00:42:56.730 But it's just it's a really it's a real person. I think his guy is Wesley, and 617 00:42:56.730 --> 00:43:00.150 somehow they found a way across thousands and thousands and thousands 618 00:43:00.150 --> 00:43:04.380 of customers to still create this human to human experience. That will 619 00:43:05.100 --> 00:43:08.330 certainly, And I'm sure they're measuring it as you would advocate. 620 00:43:08.340 --> 00:43:14.580 Certainly be able to look at you, Ian Luck as someone who is engaged with 621 00:43:14.580 --> 00:43:19.280 this program and know that your average spend with them is over twice as long a 622 00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:24.640 period and some X factor, uh, some multiple of revenue. And there's no 623 00:43:24.640 --> 00:43:29.180 question that it pays off, and I love that they take care to do it, not just 624 00:43:29.180 --> 00:43:33.340 with smart triggered stuff like an Amazon would do, but with a real human 625 00:43:33.340 --> 00:43:37.880 being, which just brings it all to life. It's crazy. I mean, I used to shop at 626 00:43:37.880 --> 00:43:40.420 Guitar Center. I used to shop at all of these random places, whoever has the 627 00:43:40.420 --> 00:43:44.060 best price. Right now, I know I'm getting the best price because this guy 628 00:43:44.070 --> 00:43:47.700 also gives me special deals, but I literally sent him an email. Today is 629 00:43:47.700 --> 00:43:50.640 like, Hey, what do you think about this? Blah, blah, blah? I mean, it's like I 630 00:43:50.640 --> 00:43:53.360 hate to say, because it's kind of like pathetic, but he's my buddy. He's like 631 00:43:53.360 --> 00:43:57.210 my gear buddy, where he I literally run ideas by him. He's a trusted advisor, 632 00:43:57.210 --> 00:44:00.480 and that's, I think, exactly what they set out to do. But it's so effective 633 00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:06.190 because is personalized. It's specific to me. He gets like, What I what I need 634 00:44:06.190 --> 00:44:11.910 in my arsenal of crap musically. So it's really cool, Man. I think it's one 635 00:44:11.910 --> 00:44:14.750 of the better brands have run across that I've I've done it successfully. 636 00:44:14.760 --> 00:44:18.970 Super powerful, great example. I've enjoyed this conversation very much. 637 00:44:18.970 --> 00:44:22.680 Ian. I know listeners will, too, if someone wants to follow up with you or 638 00:44:22.680 --> 00:44:25.700 they want to connect with customer gauge where some places you would send 639 00:44:25.700 --> 00:44:31.270 people who have listened to our conversation this far. Yeah, of course. 640 00:44:31.280 --> 00:44:35.370 Check me out on LinkedIn. I'm pretty active on their usually, um, and then 641 00:44:35.370 --> 00:44:39.370 obviously customer gauge dot com, which you can obviously check out. We have a 642 00:44:39.380 --> 00:44:42.880 ton of C X content. They're more so than I think you guys could ever 643 00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:47.790 consume. Uh, we have over, like, 20 books and a ton of blogs dating back 10 644 00:44:47.790 --> 00:44:51.200 years, and we have a whole academy. Now that we're launching and relaunching 645 00:44:51.200 --> 00:44:56.260 with courses and certifications, it's really cool. Um, so check that out. And 646 00:44:56.260 --> 00:44:58.890 obviously, if you're a marketer listening, go to marketing strategy dot 647 00:44:58.890 --> 00:45:03.870 com for the latest marketing tips and tricks. Awesome. If you are listening, 648 00:45:03.870 --> 00:45:07.620 you can always visit bomb bomb dot com slash podcast. I'll round up these 649 00:45:07.620 --> 00:45:11.140 things. I'll drop links into the blog post. You can see some of the video 650 00:45:11.140 --> 00:45:14.220 clips from the conversation, and, of course, we have the fully embedded 651 00:45:14.220 --> 00:45:18.500 audio there. So if you want to connect with the in, all those links will be up 652 00:45:18.510 --> 00:45:22.940 at bom bom dot com slash podcast. And of course you can. Spelled exactly as 653 00:45:22.940 --> 00:45:26.600 it sounds, check them out on LinkedIn. Thanks so much, Ian. They say. It's 654 00:45:26.630 --> 00:45:32.140 really a pleasure to be here. I am always rewarded at the ends of these 655 00:45:32.150 --> 00:45:36.360 episodes. Sweetwater sounds like a company that is truly innovating in the 656 00:45:36.360 --> 00:45:40.710 space. I hope you enjoyed that and everything else that Ian shared. So 657 00:45:40.710 --> 00:45:47.410 what did you think? Email me, Ethan. E T h a n at bom bom dot com or reach out 658 00:45:47.410 --> 00:45:53.490 to me on LinkedIn. Ethan Butte. Last name spelled B e u T e. I welcome your 659 00:45:53.490 --> 00:45:57.920 feedback on any of these episodes on the C X series on B two B growth. I 660 00:45:57.920 --> 00:46:02.620 want them to be useful for you. Helpful for you. Interesting to you. Let me 661 00:46:02.620 --> 00:46:07.810 know what you think, Ethan at bom bom dot com or Ethan Butte on LinkedIn. 662 00:46:07.890 --> 00:46:10.300 Thanks again for listening to be to be Growth. 663 00:46:11.590 --> 00:46:11.790 Yeah. 664 00:46:12.790 --> 00:46:16.780 Is your buyer at BDP Marketer? If so, you should think about sponsoring this 665 00:46:16.780 --> 00:46:21.730 podcast. BDB growth gets downloaded over 130,000 times each month, and our 666 00:46:21.730 --> 00:46:25.550 listeners are marketing decision makers. If it sounds interesting, send Logan 667 00:46:25.550 --> 00:46:28.420 and email Logan at sweet fish media dot com