#CX 64: Marketing Conversations with Sales, Product, and Customers w/ Shanee Ben-Zur

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.839 --> 00:00:08.910 Now more than ever, having a focus on the customer experience is important, 2 00:00:08.949 --> 00:00:13.750 because if we're not empathetic to what our customers are going through, it's not 3 00:00:14.029 --> 00:00:16.269 just that you won't make a sale, it's that you're going to make an 4 00:00:16.589 --> 00:00:27.019 enemy potentially. Exposure creates familiarity. Familiarity creates liking and understanding basic rules for 5 00:00:27.219 --> 00:00:32.859 doing well with the human condition. And yet somehow we don't create enough exposure 6 00:00:33.219 --> 00:00:37.130 with the people who can help us be successful. My name is Ethan Butte. 7 00:00:37.329 --> 00:00:41.250 I host the CX series here on B Tob Growth. I'm also chief 8 00:00:41.289 --> 00:00:46.450 of angelist at bombomb and Co author of the Best Seller Rehumanize Your Business. 9 00:00:47.250 --> 00:00:51.840 In this CX episode we're talking with Shannie Benz or, head of marketing, 10 00:00:52.119 --> 00:00:58.000 media and growth at crunch base. The theme is conversations. How, when 11 00:00:58.200 --> 00:01:03.439 and why to have more conversations with our customers, with our product teams, 12 00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:07.109 with our sales teams and other people we want to understand and connect with. 13 00:01:07.629 --> 00:01:17.349 Here's a conversation with Shannie about generating better results through conversation. Your data isn't 14 00:01:17.349 --> 00:01:21.140 always telling the full story. To reveal more meaningful insights, you have to 15 00:01:21.180 --> 00:01:26.180 do something unscalable. Talk to your customers. Our guest today brings ideas to 16 00:01:26.219 --> 00:01:30.500 get a better, fuller picture of your customer Pr Social Media Content, marketing, 17 00:01:30.620 --> 00:01:34.209 influencer marketing, life cycle, marketing, Demandin, you name it. 18 00:01:34.489 --> 00:01:40.250 She's done it at companies like dropbox and VIDEA and sales force. She currently 19 00:01:40.290 --> 00:01:44.810 serves as head of marketing, media and growth at crunch base. Shani Benzor, 20 00:01:45.129 --> 00:01:49.400 welcome to the customer experience podcast. Thank you. Nice to me here. 21 00:01:49.959 --> 00:01:53.000 Yeah, I really appreciate your time and I'm looking forward to the conversation. 22 00:01:53.200 --> 00:01:56.959 But before we get going, you're in San Francisco. What's the state 23 00:01:57.000 --> 00:02:00.000 of affairs with regard to the coronavirus pandemic? How's it affecting you or your 24 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:04.269 team or your customers? Just kind of Stet the scene there. Well, 25 00:02:04.349 --> 00:02:08.229 I've been in socialization for almost a month now, so I'm on my fourth 26 00:02:08.349 --> 00:02:13.550 week of being in my home and working from home. We made the transition 27 00:02:13.629 --> 00:02:16.340 pretty quickly at crunch base. Once we saw things accelerating, we made the 28 00:02:16.379 --> 00:02:20.979 decision that we were going to go remote and we went from a almost a 29 00:02:21.020 --> 00:02:25.340 hundred percent in San Francisco headquartered company to a one hundred percent virtual company and 30 00:02:25.419 --> 00:02:29.620 I think a lot of other SASS companies in the area went through the same 31 00:02:29.659 --> 00:02:34.129 thing and that in of itself was very stressful. That, compiled with what's 32 00:02:34.129 --> 00:02:37.050 happening in the world, was more stress. And then you know, we 33 00:02:37.129 --> 00:02:38.689 are a company that sells to a lot of other companies that are kind of 34 00:02:38.770 --> 00:02:43.729 at the forefront of dealing with this and they are stress. So overall, 35 00:02:43.770 --> 00:02:47.159 I would say it's kind of an unprecedented amount of stress. And actually, 36 00:02:47.599 --> 00:02:52.039 now more than ever, having a focus on the customer experience is important because 37 00:02:52.520 --> 00:02:55.840 if we're not empathetic to what our customers are going through, it's not just 38 00:02:57.039 --> 00:02:59.710 that you won't make a sale, it's that you're going to make an endem 39 00:02:59.830 --> 00:03:01.629 me potentially. I've seen a lot of people on linkedin saying if you send 40 00:03:01.629 --> 00:03:05.430 me a note right now and you don't acknowledge what's happening, you're going on 41 00:03:05.629 --> 00:03:09.349 the junk pile. Yeah, it is. Everything is heightened. So for 42 00:03:09.469 --> 00:03:14.219 you, how big is your team that you manage? I have twenty two 43 00:03:14.259 --> 00:03:17.819 people on the team right now. And how what's that process like? So 44 00:03:19.139 --> 00:03:21.539 when I first started that crunch base about a year and a half ago, 45 00:03:21.539 --> 00:03:24.860 we were a team of five. So we've grown very quickly in that time 46 00:03:25.020 --> 00:03:30.330 and we are still adding a couple team members even throughout this. You know, 47 00:03:30.370 --> 00:03:32.569 I think for me it's about having really clear swim lanes for each person 48 00:03:32.689 --> 00:03:38.370 on the team. We span pretty much the entire funnel for marketing, from 49 00:03:38.449 --> 00:03:42.479 brand all the way down to user retention, and each of those teams needs 50 00:03:42.520 --> 00:03:45.800 to know what their perview is. But I also really care about teams working 51 00:03:45.879 --> 00:03:49.919 together. So we do a lot through slack, through scrum meetings to try 52 00:03:49.960 --> 00:03:53.280 to share out what the key learnings from one pod are with another pod and 53 00:03:53.360 --> 00:03:58.430 hopefully identify where there's some like economies of scale versus just more isolated and in 54 00:03:58.509 --> 00:04:03.629 a pretty already isolating time. So you already mentioned customer experience wants. When 55 00:04:03.669 --> 00:04:06.430 I say customer experience, what does that mean to you? What is that 56 00:04:06.550 --> 00:04:12.379 term capture or represent? I think a lot of times in businesses we focus 57 00:04:12.539 --> 00:04:15.420 on what we want from the user. We want them to pay US money, 58 00:04:15.459 --> 00:04:18.060 we want them to be more active in the product, and I think 59 00:04:18.060 --> 00:04:23.459 the customer experience is more about what the user wants from us and more about 60 00:04:23.500 --> 00:04:27.689 how they actually feel when they interact with us. Yeah, that feeling is 61 00:04:27.810 --> 00:04:30.889 a really really key thing that I'm hearing more and thinking a lot more about. 62 00:04:31.129 --> 00:04:33.850 In so it's this idea. I love what you offer. There's just 63 00:04:33.930 --> 00:04:39.279 kind of flip it a little bit and think about how our decisions make them 64 00:04:39.319 --> 00:04:44.000 feel about themselves, about us and our products and services, etc. I'm 65 00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:46.360 familiar with crunch base, but for anyone who might not be, who is 66 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:49.920 crunch base? Who are your customers and what problem do you solve for them? 67 00:04:49.959 --> 00:04:54.790 Yeah, so crunch based, the name, has been around for a 68 00:04:54.910 --> 00:04:58.189 long time. We actually spin out as a company about five years ago, 69 00:04:58.790 --> 00:05:03.870 and it is essentially a database with some really strong social tools on top of 70 00:05:03.949 --> 00:05:09.100 it that allow you to source for prospects, whether you're prospecting for a sales 71 00:05:09.139 --> 00:05:13.779 lead or an investor, or you're an investor looking for an entrepreneur. People 72 00:05:13.860 --> 00:05:16.740 come on to our site because we have information about many, many private companies, 73 00:05:17.100 --> 00:05:20.689 typically hard to find information, and we give them signals as to whether 74 00:05:20.730 --> 00:05:27.089 those companies are healthy, scaling viable. We have got lots of categorization that 75 00:05:27.089 --> 00:05:30.009 allow people to really kind of drill down into what type of industries they care 76 00:05:30.009 --> 00:05:34.449 about, and for us, we're sort of trying to lead this trend around 77 00:05:34.449 --> 00:05:39.480 account based everything. So you've heard of account based marketing, there's account based 78 00:05:39.480 --> 00:05:43.519 selling and our belief is now that there's more and more privacy laws at this 79 00:05:43.600 --> 00:05:48.160 sort of individual contact level, the importance of account based information is is more 80 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:51.389 than ever. So that's really what we try to do, is how people 81 00:05:51.550 --> 00:05:55.910 prospect at the account level so that they know how to better use their time 82 00:05:57.029 --> 00:06:00.069 and fortunately, our unfortunately, now that we have so many companies that are 83 00:06:00.110 --> 00:06:05.459 dealing with distress around coronavirus, being able to know what companies you should start 84 00:06:05.500 --> 00:06:10.019 your search on versus just sort of like spray and pray at the lead level 85 00:06:10.180 --> 00:06:15.300 is also really important. The people who typically use US salespeople, number one. 86 00:06:15.660 --> 00:06:17.569 They're looking to make deals. It's really hard to make deals when people 87 00:06:17.569 --> 00:06:23.290 are in financial distress. The investor community also use us, and entrepreneurs, 88 00:06:23.370 --> 00:06:27.490 and those are typically kind of like our three core audiences. And then we 89 00:06:27.529 --> 00:06:30.569 also have a licensing business where people who are building products that rely on company 90 00:06:30.569 --> 00:06:34.959 information can use our data. Really interesting. I love this idea of account 91 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:40.439 based everything and you're obviously well positioned to do it, especially with some potentially 92 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:46.720 proprietary information to help people connect with their accounts more effectively. Have you seen 93 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:50.790 the use go be at like in this account based everything concept? Obviously the 94 00:06:50.910 --> 00:06:57.230 applications in in the prospecting and sales process are easy to imagine, but beyond 95 00:06:57.310 --> 00:07:02.459 that, have you seen any interesting use outside of the sales role? Yeah, 96 00:07:02.500 --> 00:07:06.019 I mean, when we started to kind of develop what we're working on 97 00:07:06.139 --> 00:07:10.259 some really big changes in the product and when we started to develop it we 98 00:07:10.339 --> 00:07:14.500 were looking at what are the types of relationships that happened between two companies, 99 00:07:15.019 --> 00:07:20.089 and we realize, like any person who interfaces with another company could rely on 100 00:07:20.129 --> 00:07:25.449 account based x. So an example would be like your beady person is trying 101 00:07:25.449 --> 00:07:28.370 to look for a partnership. You know when you go to a corporate website, 102 00:07:28.370 --> 00:07:30.680 you go www dot a company namedcom. There isn't like a website that's 103 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:33.920 like hello bd, people come here, and I think that's sort of like 104 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:39.399 a neat we're trying to fill as any real business to business connection that you 105 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:42.759 need to make, whether it's in exchange for money or in exchange for in 106 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:46.230 country, like a bd deal typically is. There isn't a resource or a 107 00:07:46.350 --> 00:07:50.069 place you can go to and that's something that we're trying to explore because it's 108 00:07:50.110 --> 00:07:55.310 just super inefficient for me to type in like job title on a website and 109 00:07:55.430 --> 00:07:58.660 get anybody who has that job title. But who knows if they're still in 110 00:07:58.699 --> 00:08:01.180 the company I thought they were at. Who knows if their company is doing 111 00:08:01.220 --> 00:08:03.860 layoffs right now. They're very distracted. So that's that's really like the the 112 00:08:03.939 --> 00:08:07.300 niche we're trying to fill, which is it's just a lot more efficient, 113 00:08:07.339 --> 00:08:13.009 it's a lot more effective, it's a better use of everybody's time. Really 114 00:08:13.089 --> 00:08:16.610 good. So you've already talked about three specific types of customers. You are 115 00:08:16.649 --> 00:08:22.689 a data company with with a really cool service layer over it. It sounds 116 00:08:22.730 --> 00:08:26.490 like let's talk about getting a fuller picture of the customer. What is really 117 00:08:26.730 --> 00:08:33.399 interesting to you about this challenge of blending essentially quantitative and qualitative? Yeah, 118 00:08:33.440 --> 00:08:37.360 I mean so I come from kind of like a growth hacking and growth background 119 00:08:37.399 --> 00:08:41.990 and I think when people hear that they shutter. I know typically engineering teams 120 00:08:43.029 --> 00:08:46.309 try to run away when they see a marketing person from a growth background come 121 00:08:46.350 --> 00:08:48.029 into the room, and I don't blame them and I think it's because, 122 00:08:48.149 --> 00:08:54.350 you know, at the heart oftentimes engineers are extremely customer centric and they see 123 00:08:54.509 --> 00:08:58.059 that those little tweaks that are two are growth oriented, aren't always with the 124 00:08:58.139 --> 00:09:01.659 customer experience in my in there with the dollar in mind, and for the 125 00:09:01.740 --> 00:09:03.580 most part they're right. And what you want to look for as somebody who 126 00:09:03.580 --> 00:09:09.129 has some type of guardrail metrics where you're not only prioritizing the dollar over the 127 00:09:09.250 --> 00:09:13.570 user experience. And an example for us at crunch base we were experimenting with 128 00:09:13.889 --> 00:09:18.850 pay walls, with registration walls and pay walls. And you know, if 129 00:09:18.850 --> 00:09:22.250 you push the paywall to the top, crunch bass typically been a very strong 130 00:09:22.370 --> 00:09:26.320 fremium brand. If we wanted to push the paywall to the top, yeah, 131 00:09:26.360 --> 00:09:28.879 there would be some money that comes through initially, but the customer experience 132 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:33.679 would be so bad and so different from what people expect that we would likely 133 00:09:33.799 --> 00:09:35.759 turn a lot of our core user base away. So even though we did 134 00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:39.070 some tests, we ended up removing any hard pay walls from the website and 135 00:09:39.110 --> 00:09:43.909 right now we only have some like soft wall reminders, and we're even exploring 136 00:09:43.029 --> 00:09:48.110 what the user experience has been as result of those interesting how do you in 137 00:09:48.309 --> 00:09:54.659 experiments like that? How do you kind of organize people around the opportunity to 138 00:09:54.860 --> 00:09:56.860 the problem or the challenge is just like a regular part of your you know, 139 00:09:56.980 --> 00:10:00.820 some part of your team's workflow, or like how do you how does 140 00:10:00.860 --> 00:10:03.700 that work come about? I love this idea of testing various types of walls. 141 00:10:03.700 --> 00:10:07.529 Yeah, so you know, when we first did it in the very, 142 00:10:07.570 --> 00:10:11.690 very early days, it was kind of like well, we never had 143 00:10:11.730 --> 00:10:13.330 trial, so let's roll out trial and we never did this, so let's 144 00:10:13.330 --> 00:10:16.370 roll out this. And as we became more sophisticated, and this is really 145 00:10:16.409 --> 00:10:20.639 Kudos to the engineering and product team, we rolled out an AB testing platform. 146 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:26.919 We use split and that allows us to make really educated decisions versus like 147 00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:28.519 well, it looks like all the numbers are better and not, you know, 148 00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:33.639 if there's like cannibalization happening. So that's one things. Having an AB 149 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:37.629 testing platform is really helpful. But beyond that, I think what we realize 150 00:10:37.669 --> 00:10:41.950 in terms of galvanizing the company behind an idea was first principles. So we 151 00:10:41.110 --> 00:10:45.110 spend some time coming up with what our first principles would be. You know, 152 00:10:45.269 --> 00:10:48.549 things like actually living our mission. Our mission is to democratize access to 153 00:10:48.590 --> 00:10:52.580 opportunities. We really think that if more people can do the thing they want 154 00:10:52.580 --> 00:10:58.059 to do, everybody benefits so like, is this wall democratizing access or is 155 00:10:58.100 --> 00:11:01.899 it not democratizing access? That's one question we ask ourselves. We look at 156 00:11:01.940 --> 00:11:05.529 things like, you know, the signals that we have that customers are getting 157 00:11:05.529 --> 00:11:09.330 value. One of the things we want to do is actually deliver something valuable 158 00:11:09.330 --> 00:11:11.649 to these or not just ask for something from them. And we did this 159 00:11:11.889 --> 00:11:16.649 like very I wouldn't say it was a hundred percent scientific, but we took 160 00:11:16.730 --> 00:11:20.240 the first principles and for each of the scenarios of wall do were exploring, 161 00:11:20.679 --> 00:11:24.639 we did like a plus one if it helped towards the first principle of one, 162 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:28.360 if it took away from the principle in a zero. And we vetted 163 00:11:28.679 --> 00:11:33.190 the opportunities based on the AB test initially using that score, and there were 164 00:11:33.269 --> 00:11:37.470 some obvious very negative ones, and so we drop those out and then the 165 00:11:37.549 --> 00:11:39.549 ones that we're sort of in the neutral to positive then we started to make 166 00:11:39.590 --> 00:11:43.389 more subjective decisions with the help of the people who are part of the working 167 00:11:43.509 --> 00:11:48.820 group. Excellent. I really love that approach. And when does the customer 168 00:11:50.019 --> 00:11:54.100 get involved? When do we do essentially the unscalable? When do we pick 169 00:11:54.100 --> 00:11:56.899 up the phone or shoot out an email or set up a zoom call or 170 00:11:56.940 --> 00:12:03.409 whatever, when you go directly to customers to to inform decisions for us, 171 00:12:03.529 --> 00:12:07.090 and I again I think this is a really strong vote of confidence behind the 172 00:12:07.129 --> 00:12:11.330 way our product team is organized. We are never not talking to customers. 173 00:12:11.409 --> 00:12:16.519 So before we even begin building a new feature, were interviewing customers. You 174 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:20.440 know, we really wanted to figure out how we can build a better product 175 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:22.960 for the sales use case. So we've been spending a lot of time interviewing 176 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:26.759 sales people in many different industries, and that's to help us understand where would 177 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:31.070 we even start. And then once we launch a feature and it gets out 178 00:12:31.110 --> 00:12:33.470 of you know, we're when we're AB testing, we might do some like 179 00:12:33.549 --> 00:12:35.190 light interviews here and there, but then once it gets out of a be 180 00:12:35.269 --> 00:12:37.909 testing it, it goes to a hundred percent. Then we're sort of leaning 181 00:12:37.950 --> 00:12:41.429 on our CX team to do, you know, a little bit more handson 182 00:12:41.990 --> 00:12:46.019 talking to customers. And on the marketing side, we're monitoring social every day 183 00:12:46.019 --> 00:12:50.659 for any productive feedback that people are giving. We have we as delighted, 184 00:12:50.700 --> 00:12:54.019 so we're seeing what are people actually submitting in their delighted scores. So at 185 00:12:54.100 --> 00:12:58.460 all times we're looking at what our customers saying and if we ever see a 186 00:12:58.169 --> 00:13:03.529 trend or if we see an uptick in a specific conversation, that triggers another 187 00:13:03.610 --> 00:13:07.570 conversation, either within the product team at the executive level. It just allows 188 00:13:07.610 --> 00:13:11.049 us to constantly be with our ear to the ground on what customers are feeling 189 00:13:11.049 --> 00:13:16.039 about the product. But I think one of the most important ones is knowing 190 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:18.440 that we're building for what they want versus building for what we want. Again, 191 00:13:18.519 --> 00:13:22.679 for me, that customer experience definition is what are their wants, needs 192 00:13:22.759 --> 00:13:28.149 desires, what are they dealing with within their lives, versus just our financial 193 00:13:28.230 --> 00:13:33.309 need? Yeah, so you mentioned several sources of customer feedback. How do 194 00:13:33.429 --> 00:13:39.470 you all organize around it? I mean does someone just like push the conversation 195 00:13:39.669 --> 00:13:43.299 butt or the alarm button if something's getting really hot or you know, or 196 00:13:43.340 --> 00:13:46.460 do you have a designed, like cross functional meeting around it? I mean 197 00:13:46.860 --> 00:13:50.580 like, for example, a bombomb we've had a voice of the customer meeting. 198 00:13:50.980 --> 00:13:56.769 It's been in various iterations, driven by different motivations at different times and 199 00:13:56.090 --> 00:14:01.169 you know, different teams have been represented differently over the years. So it's 200 00:14:01.210 --> 00:14:03.169 like it's sometimes it's just top of mind. For me, how do you 201 00:14:03.289 --> 00:14:07.850 all you know, with with the various sources of input you talked about, 202 00:14:07.129 --> 00:14:11.440 how do you organize around that information? I mean to be honest, I 203 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:15.200 think we have a lot of room for improvement. I don't think we figured 204 00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:18.440 it out yet. We haven't cracked the nut on it. It does feel 205 00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:22.039 like what we will will typically get the signal of like this metric seems out 206 00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:26.029 of whack, but I don't know why, and then we'll go in and 207 00:14:26.110 --> 00:14:28.909 investigate a little bit more deeply. There are some reports that come out on 208 00:14:28.950 --> 00:14:33.750 a regular basis. So the the UX researchers, they share reports on the 209 00:14:33.789 --> 00:14:35.830 research that they're doing. That's a lot of the forward looking research. The 210 00:14:35.950 --> 00:14:41.779 customer experienced team shares kind of weekly and monthly feedback that they're seeing. But 211 00:14:41.940 --> 00:14:45.980 what we would benefit from is having something like a voice of the customer Cross 212 00:14:46.019 --> 00:14:48.940 Functional Meeting where we highlight, Hey, this is the key theme. It 213 00:14:50.059 --> 00:14:54.049 should probably impact this team's work. You know, maybe it's the marketing team. 214 00:14:54.090 --> 00:14:58.809 Sometimes we'll run an advertising campaign that might be too unclear what the goal 215 00:14:58.210 --> 00:15:01.450 is or will have a content piece that's out there that maybe is controversial. 216 00:15:01.570 --> 00:15:05.370 Like there needs to be a way that those teams can direct the feedback to 217 00:15:05.450 --> 00:15:09.399 the team that can actually take action and I think that's something we're looking at 218 00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:13.720 but we haven't quite figured out yet. Yes, so just for if this 219 00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:18.279 is useful to you or to anyone listening, we have delighted and we do 220 00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:24.110 some serving through Pendo, feeding into one slack channel that anyone can subscribe to 221 00:15:24.230 --> 00:15:26.629 and that I find that to be really, really interesting and useful, especially 222 00:15:26.669 --> 00:15:30.990 when people choose to add comments to the to the scoring. And so anyway, 223 00:15:31.549 --> 00:15:35.029 see it anytime. It's it's really good. So you've mentioned your CX 224 00:15:35.110 --> 00:15:39.620 team a couple times in so they're kind of two camps on this per my, 225 00:15:39.019 --> 00:15:43.860 you know, dozens of conversations on this on the show. Some people 226 00:15:43.299 --> 00:15:48.299 that's just like an evolution or a sub team within customer success and for other 227 00:15:48.500 --> 00:15:54.490 people it is it's this designed additional layer that works across multiple teams. What 228 00:15:54.649 --> 00:16:00.850 is cx mean for you from an organizational structural standpoint? So crunch base has 229 00:16:00.970 --> 00:16:03.360 two product lines, kind of. We have a self surf business that's the 230 00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:07.159 free crunch based most people know it's crunch based pro and then we have a 231 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:12.519 direct sales business that sells an enterprise and kind of a licensing solution. The 232 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:19.470 CS team covers many of the like larger accounts who have custom contracts. They 233 00:16:19.470 --> 00:16:22.669 have CS managers. And then on our self, surf business, that's where 234 00:16:22.669 --> 00:16:26.750 our CX team sits and they're kind of doing more of the scaled support. 235 00:16:26.309 --> 00:16:30.269 So that's that's really the division of labor between the two teams. They do 236 00:16:30.389 --> 00:16:34.580 roll up into one overall customer success director and she's thinking about how do we 237 00:16:34.740 --> 00:16:40.500 create a great experience for our customers throughout whichever product lying there on? And 238 00:16:40.580 --> 00:16:44.100 then we do a lot of information sharing between the two. So if we're 239 00:16:44.100 --> 00:16:48.169 seeing that there's an FAQ coming in from our SELFSERF business, will share that 240 00:16:48.250 --> 00:16:51.809 information over to our direct sales business. And often times, and why I 241 00:16:51.929 --> 00:16:56.049 say sort of like customer experiences a nonscalable but very critical thing. Often Times 242 00:16:56.730 --> 00:17:00.730 your sales people, your CS people, the ones who are on the front 243 00:17:00.809 --> 00:17:03.919 lines. They are the canaries in the coal mine and they will bring you 244 00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:06.680 something that's not yet scaled and they'll say, hey, this is something to 245 00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:10.319 look out for and, depending on how sensitive your team is to being able 246 00:17:10.440 --> 00:17:15.000 to pivot and change, you either take action at that point or you take 247 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:18.069 that information and you start looking for data that backs it up at scale. 248 00:17:18.069 --> 00:17:21.470 And that's what's happening with both our sales team and CS team. I mean 249 00:17:22.549 --> 00:17:26.150 just last week our sales team was telling us, Hey, our prospects are 250 00:17:26.230 --> 00:17:29.869 telling us that, you know, their budgets are getting frozen. And then 251 00:17:29.990 --> 00:17:32.859 when we go look at the data, we see are a fewer people are 252 00:17:32.940 --> 00:17:36.579 starting trials and they were two weeks before now and it's a result of that. 253 00:17:37.220 --> 00:17:40.140 Or, you know, we're seeing on the demanding side of marketing, 254 00:17:40.220 --> 00:17:44.650 we're seeing that we are getting the same level of mqls, but those mqls 255 00:17:44.650 --> 00:17:47.450 aren't turning into appointments. And then when we talk to the sales team they 256 00:17:47.490 --> 00:17:49.769 tell us they're not even agreeing to get on the phone anymore. Like these 257 00:17:49.809 --> 00:17:52.690 are good leads, but those companies are dealing with so much in the world. 258 00:17:52.730 --> 00:17:56.410 So again, it's not you know, if you went to an analytics 259 00:17:56.450 --> 00:18:02.039 person, they would say this isn't statistically significant. But I think the business 260 00:18:02.039 --> 00:18:06.680 is an art and you are looking for that middle ground between statistical significance and, 261 00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:10.920 frankly, human significance. It's really good. It's the art in the 262 00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:17.109 science piece of it. The so really good in that CS and sales are 263 00:18:17.150 --> 00:18:19.710 obviously customer facing. There are a lot of customer conversations. They're just by 264 00:18:19.750 --> 00:18:23.430 the nature of the role and having that come into marketing and other teams. 265 00:18:23.990 --> 00:18:30.220 When does marketing go out in and directly communicate with customers, like is that 266 00:18:30.500 --> 00:18:33.539 is that a regular thing, or is that on an an ad hoc as 267 00:18:33.700 --> 00:18:38.180 needed basis, like in terms of direct customer communication, besides something something like 268 00:18:38.339 --> 00:18:41.490 social obviously, which is one of the channels you mentioned, when do you 269 00:18:42.490 --> 00:18:48.049 get out in talk to customers? Your team members rather yeah, so I 270 00:18:48.250 --> 00:18:52.049 look at my product marketing team. One of their core goals is to help 271 00:18:52.049 --> 00:18:56.480 us deeply understand who the customer is. So they sit alongside the UX research 272 00:18:56.599 --> 00:18:59.640 team in order to help us get a better understanding of the customer. And 273 00:18:59.960 --> 00:19:03.799 while the uxe search team is asking questions that relate to how people experience the 274 00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:07.799 product, product marketing team is asking questions about the person. So an example 275 00:19:07.880 --> 00:19:11.670 would be like, you know, we now know that, for our our 276 00:19:11.750 --> 00:19:17.549 perspective, customers who are sales development reps, they love reading sports publications, 277 00:19:17.670 --> 00:19:21.109 they love ESPN, and that's not a thing that the US researcher would find 278 00:19:21.150 --> 00:19:22.950 out, but it is something that the pmm would find out and for as 279 00:19:23.150 --> 00:19:26.940 it gives us a glimpse into like, okay, well, if they love 280 00:19:26.059 --> 00:19:30.500 sports and now, because of chronic virus, pretty much every major sport has 281 00:19:30.539 --> 00:19:33.019 been canceled, that's another layer of stress that they're dealing with. You know, 282 00:19:33.099 --> 00:19:36.940 it also tells us, can we come up with the sports analogy for 283 00:19:37.059 --> 00:19:38.609 something that we're talking about? You know, it's this three hundred and sixty 284 00:19:38.650 --> 00:19:41.849 view. You who the person is and what their highs are like, what 285 00:19:41.930 --> 00:19:45.890 their lows are like. That's the PMM team and they're going out and talking 286 00:19:45.890 --> 00:19:49.410 to customers constantly. I think there's also sort of the engagement that we get. 287 00:19:49.569 --> 00:19:52.839 So when we send out an email to users, most of our emails 288 00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:56.839 don't have no replies. There actually are repliable in boxes and we're reading that 289 00:19:57.000 --> 00:20:00.599 feedback. An example was we have a daily newsletter that we send out that 290 00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:04.559 has kind of like the latest funding rounds from companies, the latest acquisitions from 291 00:20:04.599 --> 00:20:10.190 companies, and we hadn't decided yet how we were going to change that in 292 00:20:10.269 --> 00:20:14.069 light of coronavirus. So we were continuing to send it out as normal and 293 00:20:14.230 --> 00:20:18.750 we got several emails back where people are saying like I am glad to see 294 00:20:18.750 --> 00:20:22.180 that others are thriving, but I am truly in the worst position I have 295 00:20:22.299 --> 00:20:26.940 been in my entire career and seeing this newsletter makes me feel bad. And 296 00:20:26.299 --> 00:20:29.900 for you know, for us, it was like, okay, we were 297 00:20:29.940 --> 00:20:32.940 working on some other things. You had prioritize some other things around coronavirus, 298 00:20:32.980 --> 00:20:36.890 but then we shifted our priority to making sure that we had some kind of 299 00:20:36.930 --> 00:20:41.650 acknowledgement in that newsletter of like, if you need resources, these resources available 300 00:20:41.730 --> 00:20:45.089 to you. This newsletter will continue because we think that knowing what companies are 301 00:20:45.089 --> 00:20:48.769 still thriving is a positive signal for anybody WHO's trying to do business. Still 302 00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:53.960 had such a good example and I think it's so important, mostly because I 303 00:20:55.240 --> 00:20:57.920 did it for years and I learned so much doing it. Is Being I 304 00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:02.640 was to direct reply, like is the only marketing person. For several years 305 00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:07.390 every email, whether it was an offer or a newsletter, Webin or invite, 306 00:21:07.470 --> 00:21:11.430 whatever, came from my personal email address, which meant that I had 307 00:21:11.589 --> 00:21:14.990 and I felt like that gave me, as a marketer or just a really 308 00:21:15.069 --> 00:21:17.990 good feel and I love I love that example of what you offer and how 309 00:21:18.029 --> 00:21:21.460 you can take something and just, you know, a little tweak makes it 310 00:21:21.579 --> 00:21:26.140 more appropriate for the situation because you care about how customers feel. This is 311 00:21:26.579 --> 00:21:29.380 a kind of a call back to earlier in the conversation, but there's something 312 00:21:29.420 --> 00:21:33.450 I was interested in is you know your first principles. Are these? Are 313 00:21:33.529 --> 00:21:37.650 these stated? Are they documented? How many are there? In is scalability 314 00:21:37.769 --> 00:21:41.210 like, do you just crunch base in your team have a position on some 315 00:21:41.410 --> 00:21:47.130 things that just are not appropriate to even work on scaling? Yeah, I 316 00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:51.240 think at this point our first principles are decided almost in the kind of like 317 00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:56.720 not initiative level, that's too narrow, but sort of overall project area will 318 00:21:56.759 --> 00:21:59.960 have first principles. There are a few things that are unchanging, like that 319 00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:03.509 idea of are we giving more value than we're asking from the customers? Are 320 00:22:03.549 --> 00:22:07.390 we living our mission? Those are things that kind of are persistent through everything. 321 00:22:08.069 --> 00:22:11.829 But then there are some that might be just specific to that particular kind 322 00:22:11.829 --> 00:22:17.220 of area of work and we typically will publish those. We use like marketing 323 00:22:17.299 --> 00:22:21.220 request dogs are product request Docs. In those outline who the decision makers are, 324 00:22:21.259 --> 00:22:23.339 who the input people are and then also what the first principles are and 325 00:22:23.539 --> 00:22:27.380 what the hypothesis is and typically, when you're one of them, more see 326 00:22:27.539 --> 00:22:32.329 your reviewers, what you're looking for is what's the like potential impact or scale, 327 00:22:32.690 --> 00:22:34.730 and you're weighing that against what are all the other ideas I've seen come 328 00:22:34.769 --> 00:22:40.049 across my desk. So that question of how do you prioritize one thing or 329 00:22:40.250 --> 00:22:42.690 over another? That is really what I spend most of my time with my 330 00:22:42.849 --> 00:22:47.079 team talking about. Is like this is a great idea. Is this the 331 00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:49.519 idea to execute now, or is there a different idea that you have in 332 00:22:49.559 --> 00:22:53.920 the hopper that would have figure potential impact? And we kind of triangulate between 333 00:22:55.960 --> 00:23:02.549 difficulty, likelihood of success and potential impact and using that triangulation will come up 334 00:23:02.549 --> 00:23:06.150 with what are the initiatives we prioritize and use the okay. Our system here 335 00:23:06.829 --> 00:23:11.349 nice is that monthly, quarterly. So the okay ours our quarterly goals. 336 00:23:11.470 --> 00:23:15.019 And then within each team we use the sprint system, when we use a 337 00:23:15.140 --> 00:23:21.259 one week sprint and with these request docs the projects can last through multiple sprints, 338 00:23:21.539 --> 00:23:23.859 but they're essentially the tactics that will help us achieve the key result we've 339 00:23:23.900 --> 00:23:27.809 outland. And are okay ours really good. So you have a very what 340 00:23:27.970 --> 00:23:32.130 I feel like is a very large role. Can you just describe the scope 341 00:23:32.170 --> 00:23:37.529 of your role in specifically any philosophy that guides you shared some of it already, 342 00:23:37.890 --> 00:23:41.640 and then maybe let's transition from there into how you interface with other teams. 343 00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:45.079 You've already talked a little bit about that, but you know the goals 344 00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:48.000 the show is to talk a little bit of alignment and it seems like seems 345 00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:51.480 like you have a lot to offer there. So start with me again the 346 00:23:51.559 --> 00:23:55.519 scope of your role. Yes, so I have a several commas in my 347 00:23:55.680 --> 00:24:00.630 title, but what they really turn into is is my team runs brand, 348 00:24:00.190 --> 00:24:07.230 product marketing, digital marketing, comes opts, and I think that's all of 349 00:24:07.309 --> 00:24:14.259 it. It's essentially top of funnel, midfunnel consideration and then customer acquisition, 350 00:24:14.859 --> 00:24:18.940 demand generation and customer attention. So it's really all parts of engaging with customers 351 00:24:18.980 --> 00:24:26.049 from before they've ever heard from us to being a multiyear customer. And for 352 00:24:26.210 --> 00:24:30.009 me, my philosophy with the whole team is one thing is if you can't 353 00:24:30.049 --> 00:24:33.849 measure it, should you be doing it? Ask yourself that question. The 354 00:24:34.049 --> 00:24:38.480 other is we don't do initiatives, we do experiments. I think you know 355 00:24:38.599 --> 00:24:42.359 traditionally marketing is seen as a thing that does big, flashy stuff and is 356 00:24:42.400 --> 00:24:45.759 measured on the number of stuff they do, and I don't want that to 357 00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:51.319 be what our team is about. It's more around we have a hypothesis of 358 00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:55.589 what a particular project could do, we test whether it can actually do that 359 00:24:55.670 --> 00:24:59.950 and then we scale it too many users and by followinging that kind of ethos 360 00:24:59.990 --> 00:25:03.710 we're able to ensure that everything we do provides value to the company and to 361 00:25:03.829 --> 00:25:07.180 the customer. And in terms of the partnerships, we work really closely with 362 00:25:07.259 --> 00:25:11.700 sales, so we have a demand Gent team that is driving leads for sales. 363 00:25:11.099 --> 00:25:15.819 We're also beginning to partner with our CSTSM team to see if we can 364 00:25:15.819 --> 00:25:18.700 use some of the automation that marketing uses on the self serf side to support 365 00:25:18.779 --> 00:25:23.210 how they manage accounts on the CSM side. And we we partnered very closely 366 00:25:23.250 --> 00:25:26.690 with the product and engineering teams because we're trying to help them figure out how 367 00:25:26.730 --> 00:25:30.049 do we bring to market the new features that they're building and how do we 368 00:25:30.170 --> 00:25:33.210 bring back some of that with the customer to them to inform with the product 369 00:25:33.210 --> 00:25:38.119 roadmap should be, and then the CX team, so I would say social 370 00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:45.079 sort of a shared service between us and CX and because we are very closely 371 00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:48.279 aligned with product, we can also give cx a heads up. Hey, 372 00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:51.589 this new feature is coming out. We think it might raise some questions. 373 00:25:51.990 --> 00:25:55.190 Can you help us kind of bulk up what is happening on the knowledge base 374 00:25:55.470 --> 00:25:59.029 with information to proactively tell them? So, in a lot of ways marketing 375 00:25:59.109 --> 00:26:03.230 is is kind of like a connective tissue between multiple teams, and I think 376 00:26:03.230 --> 00:26:06.740 there's lots of points of connective tissue. But for us we are one part 377 00:26:06.779 --> 00:26:11.779 service organization supporting those teams and one part strategy organization helping them think about how 378 00:26:11.819 --> 00:26:17.859 marketing should be supporting them. So smart. I love your approach and I 379 00:26:18.099 --> 00:26:22.650 want to know the answer to the question. If you can't measure it, 380 00:26:22.809 --> 00:26:25.809 should you be doing it? It's just like kind of hearkens back to the 381 00:26:25.890 --> 00:26:29.009 kind of the art in the science pieces. Like I can you think of 382 00:26:29.369 --> 00:26:34.039 something that you green lighted or supported even though it couldn't be measured? Yeah, 383 00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:37.720 I mean I think this is where teams can get frustrated with leaders, 384 00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:42.880 because what they want is consistency and reliability and sometimes you just have to break 385 00:26:42.920 --> 00:26:49.710 the rules. I think one thing that we've really been trying to drill into 386 00:26:49.750 --> 00:26:56.309 the team is that our primary target audience right now is the salesperson. But 387 00:26:56.470 --> 00:27:00.390 when this kind of coronavirus crisis took over and we started to think about how 388 00:27:00.430 --> 00:27:03.380 can we provide value to our users, and it was really around highlighting free 389 00:27:03.420 --> 00:27:10.180 resources, we started looking for resources that also supported the other personas that are 390 00:27:10.299 --> 00:27:12.339 typical uses of crunchbies. And I think people are sort of like wait, 391 00:27:12.420 --> 00:27:15.849 but you told us we have to focus just on sales. Why are we 392 00:27:15.930 --> 00:27:18.490 doing this? And for me it was like, look, these are members 393 00:27:18.529 --> 00:27:22.849 of our community, these are members of the ecosystem. The purpose of this 394 00:27:22.970 --> 00:27:26.930 initiative is just to create a supportive environment for these people who are truly in 395 00:27:27.049 --> 00:27:33.640 distress. This is separate from our kind of more commercially prioritize gains. Is 396 00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:37.359 it confusing? Yes, I would be confused if I was on my team. 397 00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:38.599 In my boss said way, but now you want me to focus on 398 00:27:38.680 --> 00:27:42.000 everybody. But this is one of those exceptions where it's like these are exceptional 399 00:27:42.039 --> 00:27:48.269 times and I think we can differentiate our brand if we show that we actually 400 00:27:48.549 --> 00:27:52.470 care about what people are going through and that we really do want to be 401 00:27:52.589 --> 00:27:56.230 helpful to them. So I hope that my team accepts that as a as 402 00:27:56.269 --> 00:28:00.740 a proper reason why we veered from our very strict course. Yeah, that 403 00:28:00.900 --> 00:28:04.940 is it is very challenging. We decided something that we could do uniquely to 404 00:28:06.059 --> 00:28:10.940 help was to offer bombomb absolutely free to educators at all levels, from like 405 00:28:11.099 --> 00:28:15.970 Pre k through PhD, and so within like thirty six hours of green lighting 406 00:28:17.490 --> 00:28:19.970 the project, we had it live. It's been live for a couple weeks 407 00:28:21.009 --> 00:28:23.210 now and we've got like thirty five hundred to four thousand, I don't know 408 00:28:23.289 --> 00:28:26.559 where we are exactly right now. Teachers of all over, from all over 409 00:28:26.599 --> 00:28:33.160 the play using it in order to stay facetoface with their peers and with students 410 00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:36.799 and with parents, and we're getting really good, positive feedback on it. 411 00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:38.400 But to kind of what you offered there was like we knew it was the 412 00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:42.869 right thing. It's not commercials, generating no revenue. In fact it's costing 413 00:28:42.950 --> 00:28:47.950 US money to a host all the videos be, you know, we're trying 414 00:28:47.990 --> 00:28:52.190 to have themselves served, but of course they're still in our communication channels, 415 00:28:52.230 --> 00:28:55.069 you know, needing some help and guidance, which is reasonable. And then 416 00:28:55.109 --> 00:28:59.220 the tension of you know, we still do have to adjust so much of 417 00:28:59.299 --> 00:29:03.579 the rest of our marketing and messaging pieces at the same time. So how 418 00:29:03.619 --> 00:29:07.339 do you balance all of this and where does it fall in the priority and 419 00:29:07.420 --> 00:29:10.490 how long does it stay a priority? Me was like all hands for two 420 00:29:10.529 --> 00:29:14.009 days basically to get it live, and so really interesting and challenging. But 421 00:29:14.410 --> 00:29:18.809 it's this obviously, as you're experiencing leadership in a really, really unique time, 422 00:29:19.849 --> 00:29:22.769 you know, to your point, sometimes you have to either break the 423 00:29:22.849 --> 00:29:26.960 rules or just throw them out or just not look at them or something. 424 00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:33.240 Yeah, yeah, I I never expected that I would be going through this 425 00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:37.640 and leading through this and it's, you know, at times it's overwhelming because 426 00:29:37.640 --> 00:29:40.950 I care. I spend a lot of time caring right like I cared deeply 427 00:29:40.990 --> 00:29:44.390 about my team, I care deeply about the company, I cared deeply about 428 00:29:44.390 --> 00:29:47.509 the customers, I care deeply about my own family and my own community, 429 00:29:47.950 --> 00:29:52.029 and all of that care is sort of overwhelming and it makes it difficult to 430 00:29:52.069 --> 00:29:55.619 make the logical decisions that I've typically known for. But I think like if 431 00:29:55.660 --> 00:29:57.859 there ever was a time to not be logical, this is it, sure, 432 00:29:57.900 --> 00:30:00.579 because it a lot of it doesn't make any sense. I'm going to 433 00:30:00.660 --> 00:30:06.339 ask you a couple of questions that I really enjoy asking, especially with someone 434 00:30:06.579 --> 00:30:08.769 like you who's working, you know, the way that you view your marketing 435 00:30:08.849 --> 00:30:12.490 team and what it's purposes and the way it connects to the rest of the 436 00:30:12.569 --> 00:30:17.650 organization, the connective tissue, as you said, what do you wish more 437 00:30:18.210 --> 00:30:23.839 product people or developers newer understood about marketing or the marketing function? Like you're 438 00:30:25.279 --> 00:30:29.960 you're setting me up to start a fire. I have got that reaction before, 439 00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:33.160 but I still like the question. I always find like anyway, I 440 00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:36.750 won't see that anymore. If do you have anything to offer there? I 441 00:30:36.829 --> 00:30:40.349 think it's a very symbiotic relationship. You know, I would say that the 442 00:30:40.509 --> 00:30:45.430 tightest symbiotic relationships, again, are that marketing product, marketing sales and marketing 443 00:30:45.509 --> 00:30:52.900 see us and the marketing products. Symbiosis is we can give insight into what 444 00:30:53.180 --> 00:31:00.059 people want on an ongoing basis. We can also give insight into what people 445 00:31:00.140 --> 00:31:03.500 will consume at a higher rate. So there's you know, I think it 446 00:31:03.579 --> 00:31:06.009 was apple who always talked about like people don't know what they want. You 447 00:31:06.130 --> 00:31:08.049 know, they're building these products that we never asked for. If you just 448 00:31:08.210 --> 00:31:11.170 ask the question, what do you want? You're going to end up with 449 00:31:11.250 --> 00:31:14.970 a product that's a direct competitor of something they've already know. We can help 450 00:31:15.009 --> 00:31:17.410 you with that, sort of like what they don't even know they want, 451 00:31:17.450 --> 00:31:19.960 but what they need. That's part of the symbiotic relationship, this sort of 452 00:31:21.079 --> 00:31:26.880 informing the product roadmap, and the other is we can also help understand when 453 00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:30.680 and how to bring those features to market. So yes, you could just 454 00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:34.029 keep releasing things on an ongoing basis and just let it be a steady drip 455 00:31:34.150 --> 00:31:38.430 of features to users, but there's something really powerful about kind of putting things 456 00:31:38.470 --> 00:31:41.230 into a bucket. So we might be able to help you understand hey, 457 00:31:41.509 --> 00:31:47.140 all these features, these things are collaboration features and I think you know in 458 00:31:47.259 --> 00:31:51.339 this time of isolation, collaboration is really important. So why don't we change 459 00:31:51.380 --> 00:31:53.500 the timing of the releases of these things and put it under this kind of 460 00:31:53.579 --> 00:31:56.819 messaging banner? And that's not something product has to think about, but that 461 00:31:56.940 --> 00:32:00.609 is something that marketing things about and can help sort of inform. And that's 462 00:32:00.650 --> 00:32:04.450 around this like go to market strategy, go to market position and go to 463 00:32:04.490 --> 00:32:07.210 market messaging. That's really where we can be useful. where I have seen 464 00:32:07.289 --> 00:32:12.730 the relationship not be symbiotic or I've seen it sort of be less effective is 465 00:32:12.809 --> 00:32:15.920 when one team or the other is the soul leader. It really does have 466 00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:21.000 to be sidebyside. You know, if marketing is just informing product, they 467 00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:25.039 might be overpromising what they can actually deliver. If Product is the only one 468 00:32:25.079 --> 00:32:30.349 leading and marketing is involved, they might just be doing things into, you 469 00:32:30.430 --> 00:32:31.789 know, an echo chamber or like a tree falls into force and no one 470 00:32:31.829 --> 00:32:35.829 hears that kind of thing. But when they work together, that's when you 471 00:32:35.950 --> 00:32:39.109 build products that actually have product market fit and that customers really want and meet 472 00:32:39.190 --> 00:32:44.029 and understand. Yeah, that I like the way you took that and I 473 00:32:44.150 --> 00:32:46.460 like the symbiosis language. Can you talk about the same thing with regard to 474 00:32:46.539 --> 00:32:52.859 sales and marketing? Yeah, I mean it's it's so interesting because I have 475 00:32:52.019 --> 00:32:58.380 I've worked in organizations where those relationships were very unhealthy and now and crunch based. 476 00:32:58.380 --> 00:33:00.609 I think it's the first time where I've seen them be extremely healthy and 477 00:33:00.650 --> 00:33:05.089 I don't know if it's a factor of the company being so small that we 478 00:33:05.170 --> 00:33:07.930 actually have personal relationships. Like I have a very close relationship with the head 479 00:33:07.930 --> 00:33:12.490 of product, with the head of sales and I don't know if that's the 480 00:33:12.529 --> 00:33:15.720 reason, but whatever it is, I would I would fight somebody if they 481 00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:21.279 tried to get in the way of the efficacy of that relationship. So the 482 00:33:21.400 --> 00:33:25.240 symbiosis between marketing and sales is, on the sale side, what they're offering 483 00:33:25.400 --> 00:33:29.269 is that frontline canary in the coal and what are people actually saying? In 484 00:33:29.349 --> 00:33:32.069 a lot of ways they're like the UX researcher for us and on our side 485 00:33:32.230 --> 00:33:35.950 we are letting them know, hey, here's how we can get to scale, 486 00:33:36.470 --> 00:33:39.430 like you may be finding that only people with this very specific job title 487 00:33:39.470 --> 00:33:43.339 are the ones who convert. But if we only focused on that, before 488 00:33:43.380 --> 00:33:45.460 it gets to you, you won't have any leads to work. So we're 489 00:33:45.500 --> 00:33:49.940 giving them feedback around like what's the macro trends that are happening out in the 490 00:33:50.019 --> 00:33:52.420 world, and bringing that down to them. We're also able to say, 491 00:33:52.740 --> 00:33:55.690 Hey, we've been doing these like top of funnel content marketing things, either 492 00:33:55.690 --> 00:34:00.529 ebooks or Webinars, and this is what's resonating with them and and feeding that 493 00:34:00.690 --> 00:34:04.490 back to the sales team as like topical information that they could be bringing up. 494 00:34:04.890 --> 00:34:07.730 So it really is they're telling us what's working on their side, we're 495 00:34:07.809 --> 00:34:12.920 telling them what's working on our side and and again we're triangulating what's actually the 496 00:34:13.079 --> 00:34:15.079 need of these are in the customer and I think the other part of the 497 00:34:15.159 --> 00:34:21.639 symbiotic relationship is because we have entire relationship with product, we can help translate 498 00:34:21.960 --> 00:34:24.670 what it is that sales people are seeing customers or prospects ask for on the 499 00:34:24.750 --> 00:34:30.230 Front Line into a reason noble request for the product team because, you know, 500 00:34:30.989 --> 00:34:34.750 typically what you see happen is you'll have one sales interaction where a prospect 501 00:34:34.789 --> 00:34:37.070 will say, Oh, I want this feature, and then that sales person 502 00:34:37.110 --> 00:34:38.300 will go to product and be like this is what we need and pot it 503 00:34:38.460 --> 00:34:42.380 was like, I don't even understand the words that you're saying. You can 504 00:34:42.460 --> 00:34:45.780 be the middle people for that and help translate. Yeah, it's a great 505 00:34:45.820 --> 00:34:51.460 that is a really good marketing function relative to sales and product. I love 506 00:34:51.539 --> 00:34:53.650 that call out and I think you're absolutely right. I do think the personal 507 00:34:53.690 --> 00:34:58.130 relationships make a big, big difference. There's just, you know, so 508 00:34:58.329 --> 00:35:04.489 much that comes out of a healthy relationship with another human that just can't be 509 00:35:05.170 --> 00:35:08.280 faked or replicated any other way than then through the you know, knowing, 510 00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:15.039 understanding and appreciating the other person at the foundation for being successful together. The 511 00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:22.309 emotional safety to be vulnerable between those teams is also critical. So it really 512 00:35:22.429 --> 00:35:24.429 is you have to win together, but you also have to fail together. 513 00:35:24.909 --> 00:35:29.670 And if there starts to be situations, especially now and in high times, 514 00:35:29.710 --> 00:35:31.110 where leads are going to be harder to come by, if you have a 515 00:35:31.230 --> 00:35:36.539 situation where there starts to be finger pointing and that trust gets lost, that's 516 00:35:36.579 --> 00:35:39.340 also when, I think, that symbiotic relationship becomes unhealthy. So finding a 517 00:35:39.420 --> 00:35:45.179 way to build lots of visibility and transparency between the teams such that anybody anywhere 518 00:35:45.219 --> 00:35:49.300 can make a suggestion. No commitment whether it'll happen, but a feeling of 519 00:35:49.420 --> 00:35:51.809 like, Hey, I can throw this idea over to you I know that 520 00:35:51.929 --> 00:35:53.809 you'll take it in the spirit in which it was intended. That, I 521 00:35:53.929 --> 00:35:58.730 think, is also a really important, important part and what makes the symbatic 522 00:35:58.769 --> 00:36:04.480 relationship work. It's fantastic. I think this idea of winning and losing together 523 00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:08.039 really prevents one of the worst things that can happen from a from a relationship 524 00:36:08.079 --> 00:36:14.599 standpoint or a functional standpoint is blaming Thea a looking for blame and these kinds 525 00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:17.630 of liks, some of that negative behavior that happens when you're not losing together 526 00:36:17.750 --> 00:36:21.550 and being honest about it with each other. And again, some of the 527 00:36:21.590 --> 00:36:24.590 keywords you offered there, including transparency, so that everyone understands exactly what's going 528 00:36:24.710 --> 00:36:29.750 on. I have so enjoyed this conversation. You have a lot going on. 529 00:36:30.070 --> 00:36:31.860 I'm going to give you the rest of your day back, but before 530 00:36:31.900 --> 00:36:36.300 I do I want to let listeners know that if you enjoyed this conversation, 531 00:36:36.460 --> 00:36:39.739 you might like episode thirty four with Michael Redboard, formerly of hub spot, 532 00:36:39.900 --> 00:36:45.820 for things every customer wishes you understood about them, and episode sixty three and 533 00:36:45.900 --> 00:36:50.329 more recent one with David Merman Scott creating fans through human connection. Shinny, 534 00:36:50.449 --> 00:36:54.170 before I let you go, I would love to know someone who you appreciate 535 00:36:54.610 --> 00:36:58.969 for the positive impact that she or he has had on your life or your 536 00:36:59.050 --> 00:37:06.400 career. Caddie serve US and she was my former manager at dropbocks. I'm 537 00:37:06.440 --> 00:37:09.960 a really direct person. Sometimes that is good, sometimes that is bad, 538 00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:15.829 and from most of my career I was told to just be softer, to 539 00:37:15.150 --> 00:37:20.989 be less intimidating, and I think that was really hard for me kind of 540 00:37:21.030 --> 00:37:23.309 growing up in my career because I always felt like who I am was not 541 00:37:23.469 --> 00:37:27.789 right, who I am was not good for the workplace, and Daddy was 542 00:37:27.829 --> 00:37:31.300 the first person who said they're wrong. Who you are is what it makes 543 00:37:31.420 --> 00:37:37.340 you magical and lean into it. Flex to people. You're not trying to 544 00:37:37.380 --> 00:37:39.980 hurt other people, but lean into what makes you strong. Don't be afraid 545 00:37:40.500 --> 00:37:44.929 and honestly, it was like an unlockgate where I just felt like I was 546 00:37:44.969 --> 00:37:47.289 able to achieve a million times more than I ever had before because I wasn't 547 00:37:47.329 --> 00:37:51.289 wasting as much time thinking about how to be smaller, how to be less. 548 00:37:51.929 --> 00:37:54.289 So huge thank you to caddy. I think she really changed my life 549 00:37:54.329 --> 00:37:59.559 in a lot of ways, starting with my job. The phrase I was 550 00:37:59.719 --> 00:38:04.039 thinking as you're sharing, that was like life changing me, like this opportunity 551 00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:07.440 give yourself permission just to do what you do as you do. It is 552 00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:10.840 just so wonderful. Great call out there. How about a company that you 553 00:38:10.960 --> 00:38:15.070 really respect or appreciate for the way that they deliver for you as a customer? 554 00:38:16.070 --> 00:38:20.989 So I've been noodling on this, this idea, and I think I'm 555 00:38:20.989 --> 00:38:23.670 going to call it a really small, small business. I'm a member of 556 00:38:24.150 --> 00:38:30.059 a small wine club up in Napa and originally I had my delivery address as 557 00:38:30.219 --> 00:38:34.500 my husband's office, because, you know, you have to sign for alcohol 558 00:38:34.500 --> 00:38:37.460 in California, and I got the email notification that it was being shipped to 559 00:38:37.500 --> 00:38:40.889 the office and we were under a lockdown. So I immediately shot them an 560 00:38:40.929 --> 00:38:45.090 email. You know, I'm just like shooting emails to random email addresses at 561 00:38:45.090 --> 00:38:46.409 the winery and I'm like hey, is there any way we could change this? 562 00:38:46.769 --> 00:38:50.730 And you know, in less than twenty four hours they said no problem, 563 00:38:50.889 --> 00:38:53.289 they had it redirected, which I can only imagine how difficult that was, 564 00:38:53.889 --> 00:38:58.119 and they they were just like so happy to do it for me because 565 00:38:58.159 --> 00:39:01.639 they understood what I was going through, being literally locked indoors, and I 566 00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:06.119 think it just showed a you know, I can only imagine how stressful it 567 00:39:06.159 --> 00:39:08.639 is for them. They're very small business. I'm sure that as people lose 568 00:39:08.679 --> 00:39:12.829 more of their income, luxuries like wine are going to be things that they 569 00:39:12.869 --> 00:39:17.510 cut. And yet they took the time to express loyalty towards an existing customer 570 00:39:17.670 --> 00:39:22.429 and go above and beyond what my expectations were of them. And I'm seeing 571 00:39:22.510 --> 00:39:25.860 that actually that level of loyalty and customer focus. Happened from a lot of 572 00:39:25.980 --> 00:39:30.539 really small businesses is and I have this hypothesis and hope that there's going to 573 00:39:30.579 --> 00:39:35.940 be a resurgence in the sort of like cottage industry and maybe a beginning of 574 00:39:35.980 --> 00:39:39.250 a shift away from the monolithic brands because of this level of customer focus. 575 00:39:39.849 --> 00:39:43.849 Yeah, it's really interesting to think about. I love the example, by 576 00:39:43.889 --> 00:39:45.969 the way, and it's it is. I think they're going to be okay, 577 00:39:46.610 --> 00:39:51.210 and I say that only because here in Colorado, when we got our 578 00:39:51.610 --> 00:39:54.480 stay, they call our stay at home, when we got our stayathome order, 579 00:39:54.880 --> 00:39:58.360 they accepted, of course, grosceries and some other things like that, 580 00:39:58.440 --> 00:40:00.920 but they also accepted the liquor stores and beer stores and wine stores, and 581 00:40:01.519 --> 00:40:06.199 same thing happened to my buddy Steve Out in Pennsylvania. You know that they 582 00:40:06.199 --> 00:40:09.789 at first they closed the beer stores and then they opened a backup like a 583 00:40:09.909 --> 00:40:13.989 week later. So I hopefully that business will be okay. But what you 584 00:40:14.070 --> 00:40:17.590 offer is really interesting, especially is people's careers are disrupted and they need to 585 00:40:17.630 --> 00:40:22.019 maybe reinvent whenever we're on kind of the better side of this situation that we're 586 00:40:22.019 --> 00:40:25.099 all in right now and so I have the same hope. It's really it's 587 00:40:25.099 --> 00:40:30.699 an exciting thought and I do think the kind of the essence of what you 588 00:40:30.860 --> 00:40:35.300 offered there too, is this idea that these are the times we are going 589 00:40:35.380 --> 00:40:39.530 to remember how the brands and companies and products and services made us feel so 590 00:40:39.849 --> 00:40:45.170 the ones that make us feel cared for long term wealthy. Yeah, I 591 00:40:45.250 --> 00:40:47.769 think that's all about empathy. Right now. It is. It's I'm seeing 592 00:40:47.769 --> 00:40:51.599 a lot of that on Linkedin and it's nice. I hope that a lot 593 00:40:51.639 --> 00:40:55.480 of these things that emerge, including like I recording this on a Monday, 594 00:40:55.880 --> 00:41:00.360 so you know I'm home, but I feel like now, a couple weeks 595 00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:04.909 into it, we're not as far along as you are that I feel obviously 596 00:41:04.989 --> 00:41:07.349 closer to my family, because I see them a lot more, my wife 597 00:41:07.389 --> 00:41:10.710 and my son, and in closer to my neighborhood because I'm walking and running 598 00:41:10.710 --> 00:41:15.469 a lot more and at different times of the day. I'm more familiar with 599 00:41:15.550 --> 00:41:17.269 the way the light moves through my own home during the day. It's just, 600 00:41:17.619 --> 00:41:21.059 you know, I'm hoping that some of these some of these small things, 601 00:41:21.099 --> 00:41:24.019 in these nice things, stay with us when some new normalcy returns. 602 00:41:24.780 --> 00:41:29.780 I agree I agree. I think there's a lot of really interesting new changes 603 00:41:29.820 --> 00:41:35.210 that are happening around us, and the people and the companies that are agile 604 00:41:35.289 --> 00:41:37.210 and able to adapt to this world, I think we're going to find so 605 00:41:37.289 --> 00:41:40.969 many cool new things happen. I'm also a little optimistic about this. Like 606 00:41:42.369 --> 00:41:45.250 obviously I hope that we find a way to stymy the the spread of this 607 00:41:45.409 --> 00:41:51.119 disease, because the like, the human impact is horrible, but this is 608 00:41:51.159 --> 00:41:54.039 also where like interesting innovation is going to happen. People are going to be 609 00:41:54.079 --> 00:41:57.679 more connected to their family, people are going to be more connected to their 610 00:41:57.719 --> 00:42:00.679 communities, and that's a thing, at least in the US, we've needed 611 00:42:00.840 --> 00:42:05.710 for a while. You know, it's weird that isolation is what's driving connection, 612 00:42:05.829 --> 00:42:07.989 but it is. Yeah, I feel like all the social networks are 613 00:42:08.030 --> 00:42:13.309 a bit more lively than before. Of course, facebook in particular still as 614 00:42:13.429 --> 00:42:16.579 kind of antagonistic as ever. It's weird how something like this can be so 615 00:42:16.739 --> 00:42:21.460 political, but I do feel like there is the more people are there looking 616 00:42:21.619 --> 00:42:24.340 for that kind of connection. Of course, at bombomb because we make it 617 00:42:24.420 --> 00:42:28.500 easy to record and send videos and not just do zoom calls like this zoom. 618 00:42:28.539 --> 00:42:30.369 Of course, is probably through the roof crazy busy right now, but 619 00:42:30.809 --> 00:42:34.170 so are we. It's really interesting, you know. On the one side 620 00:42:34.170 --> 00:42:37.889 we have people, you know, strung customers who are struggling, you know, 621 00:42:37.010 --> 00:42:39.849 and they're reviewing all of their expenses and trying to figure out what they're 622 00:42:39.849 --> 00:42:43.130 going to do. But on the other side we have, I guess, 623 00:42:43.210 --> 00:42:46.280 generally speaking, lead flow that is that we haven't seen in some time. 624 00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:51.039 It's been it's also just so interesting. I am going to let you get 625 00:42:51.079 --> 00:42:52.840 back to your day. I appreciate you so much. I appreciate your time 626 00:42:53.039 --> 00:42:57.960 and I know if someone is listening to us right now they appreciate your time 627 00:42:58.119 --> 00:43:00.550 and your insights as well. So if anyone wants to follow up and connect 628 00:43:00.590 --> 00:43:05.389 with you or with crunch base, where would you send people with crunch bits? 629 00:43:05.510 --> 00:43:09.309 Just wwtcrunch Bascom with me. I'm on Linkedin. Shinney Ben's Are there 630 00:43:09.389 --> 00:43:12.980 on a lot of us, so you'll probably find me, and also on 631 00:43:13.219 --> 00:43:16.300 twitter match. Shiny Benz are awesome. Thank you again so much and I 632 00:43:16.340 --> 00:43:21.260 hope you have a great rest of your day. I hope you are unlocked 633 00:43:21.860 --> 00:43:28.929 soon. Thank you you too. The power of conversation and the power of 634 00:43:29.090 --> 00:43:31.849 coaching. I loved the thank you that Shanee gave there. None of us 635 00:43:31.889 --> 00:43:37.369 should overlook our opportunity and ability to influence people's lives and careers in the way 636 00:43:37.489 --> 00:43:44.519 that hers was. To hear more conversations about creating awareness, understanding, conversation 637 00:43:45.039 --> 00:43:49.400 and alignment with the people who can help us be successful. Check out the 638 00:43:49.519 --> 00:43:55.150 customer experience podcast. You can search the customer experience podcasting your preferred podcast player, 639 00:43:55.590 --> 00:44:00.989 or you can head over to Bombombcom podcast for links to the podcast and 640 00:44:01.110 --> 00:44:07.550 links to details about every episode, including short write ups, video clips and 641 00:44:07.750 --> 00:44:14.059 betted audio and much more. Again, that's at Bombombcom podcast. My name 642 00:44:14.139 --> 00:44:21.380 is Ethan but and I appreciate you listening to be tob growth. Is the 643 00:44:21.420 --> 00:44:24.329 decisionmaker for your product or service, a beb marketer. Are you looking to 644 00:44:24.409 --> 00:44:30.050 reach those buyers through the medium of podcasting? Consider becoming a cohost of BB 645 00:44:30.329 --> 00:44:35.449 growth. This show is consistently ranked as a top one hundred podcast in the 646 00:44:35.489 --> 00:44:38.360 marketing category of Apple Podcasts, and the show gets more than a hundred and 647 00:44:38.480 --> 00:44:44.599 thirty thou downloads each month. We've already done the work of building the audience, 648 00:44:44.920 --> 00:44:49.199 so you can focus on delivering incredible content to our listeners. If you're 649 00:44:49.239 --> 00:44:52.360 interested, email logan at sweet fish Mediacom