#CX 59: Customer Experience as Existential Experience w/ Todd Hockenberry

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.960 --> 00:00:09.509 The reality is, for the vast majority of companies, you have to create 2 00:00:09.669 --> 00:00:13.830 this experience that's fundamentally different than your competition, because there's no other way to 3 00:00:13.869 --> 00:00:19.710 differentiate. As a be tob growth listener, you've probably already thought about, 4 00:00:19.789 --> 00:00:25.859 and even started acting on the idea that your customers goals and Kpis and metrics 5 00:00:26.379 --> 00:00:31.780 should be your goals, your kpis and your metrics. When we adopt our 6 00:00:31.859 --> 00:00:37.250 customers goal, we create alignment and we create a long term relationship that's based 7 00:00:37.450 --> 00:00:42.090 in their true success. My name is Ethan Butte. I'm chief evangelist at 8 00:00:42.210 --> 00:00:48.090 Bombomb, coauthor of Rehumanize Your Business and host of the CX series here on 9 00:00:48.210 --> 00:00:52.600 b Tob Growth, and you're about to enjoy a conversation with todd hockenberry, 10 00:00:52.640 --> 00:00:58.719 an expert in be tob sales and marketing whose thoughts and definition of customer experience 11 00:00:58.920 --> 00:01:03.510 changed with the Covid nineteen pandemic. In many customer relationships, it's no longer 12 00:01:03.709 --> 00:01:10.269 just about adopting their goals as your own, it's adopting their survival as your 13 00:01:10.349 --> 00:01:17.069 own. Customer experience has become an existential experience. We also talk alignment. 14 00:01:17.269 --> 00:01:23.459 Customer Centricity, personalization and a lot more. Here's the conversation with Todd hockenberry. 15 00:01:26.180 --> 00:01:32.260 Today we're talking internal alignment and inbound organizations. We're talking mission, culture 16 00:01:32.260 --> 00:01:37.969 and strategy, customer centricity and customer experience. Our guest is a CO author 17 00:01:38.129 --> 00:01:42.489 of an excellent book that speaks very directly to the entire purpose of this podcast. 18 00:01:42.849 --> 00:01:49.040 That Book Inbound Organization. How to building strengthen your company's future using inbound 19 00:01:49.439 --> 00:01:55.079 he's a marketing consultant, advisor and coach at top line results. He helps 20 00:01:55.120 --> 00:01:59.719 be to be leaders, drive growth, aligned with buyers, build sales and 21 00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:05.109 marketing strategies and develop the mindset to grow. Todd Hockenberry, welcome to the 22 00:02:05.189 --> 00:02:07.750 customer experience podcast, Ethan. It's my pleasure to be here. It's a 23 00:02:08.069 --> 00:02:12.150 long time coming. I'm glad to be here. Me Too. Like as 24 00:02:12.229 --> 00:02:15.469 we were talking before we hit record, you know, we've seen each other 25 00:02:15.629 --> 00:02:19.300 and kind of known each other for some time and it's nice to finally connect 26 00:02:19.379 --> 00:02:22.939 directly and I'm looking forward to the conversation. Hey, we're recording this in 27 00:02:23.060 --> 00:02:27.780 like early to mid April. Won't release for a while, but just because 28 00:02:28.060 --> 00:02:30.169 we can't ignore it, you're an Orlando. I'm in Colorado Springs. I'm 29 00:02:30.169 --> 00:02:38.210 just wondering what's the coronavirus pandemic situation in Orlando? How is it affecting you 30 00:02:38.409 --> 00:02:42.569 or your family or your customers? Like kind of what's going on? Well, 31 00:02:42.650 --> 00:02:46.400 you can Orlando obviously is. It's shocking. Something like sixty eight million 32 00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:51.599 people visitor Orlando last year, which is the most visited city in the world, 33 00:02:51.639 --> 00:02:54.719 which is hard to believe. So that is ground to a sandstill and 34 00:02:55.000 --> 00:03:00.509 I promise you I will never complain about traffic ever again in my life because 35 00:03:00.870 --> 00:03:02.509 I was used to it was natural. All, I hate traffic at a 36 00:03:02.590 --> 00:03:07.909 week but traffic equals activity, so I never I guess I never really connected 37 00:03:07.909 --> 00:03:10.469 the dots that well to that. I just would like to complain. So 38 00:03:10.509 --> 00:03:14.939 I'll never complain about that again. People are hurting right now down here. 39 00:03:15.060 --> 00:03:20.539 Disney's laying off the big the hotels are something like ten capacity, when usually 40 00:03:20.539 --> 00:03:23.300 they'd be at ninety five percent capacity. Now we're losing the one of the 41 00:03:23.340 --> 00:03:27.530 biggest tourist times of the year here. So a lot of our friends we're 42 00:03:27.530 --> 00:03:30.370 seeing layoffs and being let go. So that's that's tough. Not sure when 43 00:03:30.409 --> 00:03:34.289 the hospitality and your is going to bounce back. I think it's going to 44 00:03:34.330 --> 00:03:37.610 take a little while. So so that's a little tough here. Locally, 45 00:03:38.370 --> 00:03:39.810 personally, we're fine. Kids are home. got a daughter in college. 46 00:03:39.849 --> 00:03:43.960 He's back, so it's nice to have everybody in the house and they can 47 00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:46.479 do distance learning pretty well, so that's not too bad. Clients Wise, 48 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:51.360 we're doing fine. We haven't lost any business. Our clients. We tend 49 00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:54.680 to do a lot of industrial and manufacturing and it's actually pretty strong. I 50 00:03:54.710 --> 00:03:59.389 hopefully get into a couple of my client situations later. They are actually doing 51 00:03:59.430 --> 00:04:02.870 better because they're busier because they're dealing with mission critical situations, so there's some 52 00:04:02.949 --> 00:04:06.150 urgency there. So it's kind of a mixed bag. We've been okay. 53 00:04:06.629 --> 00:04:10.900 I actually landed a couple of new clients this week and I'll tell you why 54 00:04:10.979 --> 00:04:14.020 is. We get going here, but so so far, so good. 55 00:04:14.099 --> 00:04:17.579 But yeah, we recognize this is a pretty strange time and I think there's 56 00:04:17.939 --> 00:04:21.379 there's a lot of difficulties that a lot of people are going to see. 57 00:04:21.579 --> 00:04:26.610 For sure. Yeah, very uneven effects. I do appreciate that silver lining 58 00:04:26.649 --> 00:04:30.170 of more face time with my wife and my son then than ever. Really 59 00:04:30.610 --> 00:04:33.290 and my son's loving distance learning because he can do it at his own pace 60 00:04:33.329 --> 00:04:38.089 and he has like more free time than normal. and honestly, I think 61 00:04:38.089 --> 00:04:42.279 as soon as any of these orders are lifted, Disney's going to be jam 62 00:04:42.360 --> 00:04:46.480 packed because people are probably itching and desperate to, you know, like satisfy 63 00:04:46.600 --> 00:04:50.519 that unmet need that's maybe being pent up. Why? I don't know it. 64 00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:53.750 I don't know. Ethan, I there's there's a lot of us have 65 00:04:53.829 --> 00:04:56.709 talked about that. We're not sure what's going to happen. I think there's 66 00:04:57.670 --> 00:05:00.310 I'm not sure I go. I mean, I'm just being candid. I'm 67 00:05:00.310 --> 00:05:02.029 not sure I'm interesting good one. Yeah, I'm not sure I would go 68 00:05:02.029 --> 00:05:04.670 sit in the stadium right now for a sporting event, which I love, 69 00:05:05.110 --> 00:05:08.579 or go to a concert, which I love. I don't know. I 70 00:05:08.699 --> 00:05:15.019 mean not that I'm super afraid of getting it, it's more that I don't 71 00:05:15.019 --> 00:05:16.620 know. I wouldn't want to be the guy who was carrying it infecting other 72 00:05:16.699 --> 00:05:20.810 people. So I get I think we need to we need to be reasonable 73 00:05:20.850 --> 00:05:25.730 about it. I think there's some a lot of common sense things we can 74 00:05:25.769 --> 00:05:29.930 do. I do think there's going to be some hesitants to get back to 75 00:05:30.089 --> 00:05:31.889 normal that fast. I think it'll come back into you know, in the 76 00:05:31.930 --> 00:05:36.680 fall, hopefully over the winter. Maybe again, I won't predict because you 77 00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:42.439 read everything and I'm you're always wrong. But I do think there's going to 78 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:45.040 be pent up demand for a lot of things. I think there's opportunities for 79 00:05:45.079 --> 00:05:48.839 people to think about how to experience things like Disney in a different way, 80 00:05:49.389 --> 00:05:54.149 and those are the opportunities that I think are going to change the way people 81 00:05:54.269 --> 00:05:58.389 look at look at entertainment, for sure, and lots of other industries. 82 00:05:58.430 --> 00:06:01.470 That's the opportunity of this. Yeah, there is going to be a lot 83 00:06:01.550 --> 00:06:08.699 of models will change and I'm sure Disney's already hard at work on that right 84 00:06:08.819 --> 00:06:11.180 like, you know, the movie theaters, for example. We won't spend 85 00:06:11.180 --> 00:06:13.939 too much more time on this, but the movie theaters, for example, 86 00:06:14.019 --> 00:06:16.300 decided to take whatever was going to continue to be a like a first round 87 00:06:16.379 --> 00:06:19.490 release and figure out how to release it, you know, straight to homes 88 00:06:19.610 --> 00:06:24.370 and charge differently for it and all of that. And so business models will 89 00:06:24.370 --> 00:06:29.850 change to meet whatever opportunity is available. So let's get into it properly. 90 00:06:30.170 --> 00:06:32.600 I always like to start because I'm talking with people with a wide variety of 91 00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:38.560 experience here on the show and wide variety of perspectives and areas of expertise, 92 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:41.600 and so I'd love to know from you, todd, when I say customer 93 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:46.759 experience, what does that mean to you? Actually has changed in the last 94 00:06:46.149 --> 00:06:49.430 three weeks? For me, to be honest with you, customer experience used 95 00:06:49.430 --> 00:06:51.910 to me, and when we wrote the book in Down Organization with my good 96 00:06:51.949 --> 00:06:58.029 friend Dan tire, it meant kind of the sum total of expectations of all 97 00:06:58.189 --> 00:07:03.339 touch points along the process, from marketing through sales, through delivery, training, 98 00:07:03.459 --> 00:07:06.620 on Boarding Service, whatever you want to call it. That's still the 99 00:07:06.740 --> 00:07:11.180 case. I still think customer experience is extraordinal. They've a valuable but I 100 00:07:11.220 --> 00:07:15.259 think the customer experience has changed for me in this that that there's is opposed 101 00:07:15.259 --> 00:07:19.569 to just talking about getting value from a product or service. It's almost become 102 00:07:19.689 --> 00:07:24.649 this existential thing now, whereas I can you help me survive? Can you 103 00:07:24.769 --> 00:07:30.360 help me get through this next six months? Can you help my business keep 104 00:07:30.519 --> 00:07:32.959 customers, not necessarily even get new customers, just keep the ones I have 105 00:07:33.079 --> 00:07:36.639 and maintain my my business? Can I stay above water? Right? That's 106 00:07:36.639 --> 00:07:43.000 what we're seeing and I think it's a different level of understanding your customer, 107 00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:47.069 putting yourself in their shoes, being empathetic and really developing a value proposition that 108 00:07:47.189 --> 00:07:51.550 makes sense that can hold up two difficult times like now. I think there's 109 00:07:51.550 --> 00:07:56.029 another layer on there that wasn't there a month ago, at least for most 110 00:07:56.029 --> 00:08:00.420 companies in the US. And if you are sending emails right now, for 111 00:08:00.540 --> 00:08:05.500 example, to your your contactless your prospect list, I am on subscribing at 112 00:08:05.540 --> 00:08:09.980 a record pace lately from email. So just because you can do it doesn't 113 00:08:11.019 --> 00:08:15.209 mean you should do it. And on the other hand, though, I've 114 00:08:15.209 --> 00:08:18.250 got one client here in Orlando that deals with the stored fuel, which is 115 00:08:18.329 --> 00:08:22.970 a really Nice, fun obscure thing to do. But if you're hospital or 116 00:08:24.050 --> 00:08:26.720 you're a government agency, your cranking up generators that haven't been used for months 117 00:08:26.720 --> 00:08:30.639 or years and you've got tanks full of fuel that have it could potentially have 118 00:08:30.759 --> 00:08:33.200 issues. So they've all of a sudden become really valuable to making sure that 119 00:08:33.320 --> 00:08:37.240 field hospital you're setting up or the emergency prep workers that need to be out 120 00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:41.549 in the field work and hard have fuel to power up their vehicles or power 121 00:08:41.549 --> 00:08:46.309 up these generators. Well, what they did was instead of sending the same 122 00:08:46.549 --> 00:08:50.070 old covid nineteen email that everybody is sending. They sent this out. They 123 00:08:50.149 --> 00:08:54.629 said, we know you're busy right now, we know you have issues and 124 00:08:54.669 --> 00:08:58.100 we know you're starting up these generators and using the stored fuel. We will 125 00:08:58.179 --> 00:09:01.659 come on site for you free. We will test your fuel and make sure 126 00:09:01.700 --> 00:09:05.259 it works and it's good and it doesn't have contamination like bacteria or water in 127 00:09:05.340 --> 00:09:07.580 it, just to make sure you don't lose any time getting your operations up 128 00:09:07.580 --> 00:09:11.730 to speed. No strings attached, just tell us will show up and test 129 00:09:11.769 --> 00:09:13.970 your fuel. Guess what? The phone was reagant. Come on out, 130 00:09:15.009 --> 00:09:18.169 we need your help. Right. And so the experience was being epathetic, 131 00:09:18.970 --> 00:09:24.720 understanding, helpful, mission critical, giving away something for free. All sound 132 00:09:24.759 --> 00:09:28.759 like good inbound things right, but knowing when to do it right and knowing 133 00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:33.559 who to do that for. So again, I think it's just deepening for 134 00:09:33.759 --> 00:09:37.480 me this this idea of customer experience is deepening in this this time, because 135 00:09:37.909 --> 00:09:43.950 the companies that don't do it well or aren't thinking about me or being helpful 136 00:09:43.950 --> 00:09:46.750 first, I'm going to remember and I'm not going to be happy about it 137 00:09:46.870 --> 00:09:50.110 when, when things settled out. Yeah, I feel like a theme. 138 00:09:50.230 --> 00:09:56.779 There is is true partnership, a true exchange of value, not just the 139 00:09:56.940 --> 00:10:00.940 extraction of a credit card number or the return of an invoice paid, but 140 00:10:01.059 --> 00:10:07.139 a true partnership and a long term relationship, and it's really interesting. The 141 00:10:07.210 --> 00:10:13.769 idea of the broader circumstance really kind of fundamentally shifting or adding an important new 142 00:10:13.809 --> 00:10:20.129 layer to your perspective. Because customer experience was an important theme in Inbound Organization. 143 00:10:20.169 --> 00:10:24.279 I'd like to spend another minute on it, specifically the around your thoughts 144 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:31.120 on it being the most important or maybe the ultimate differentiator. Do you think 145 00:10:31.159 --> 00:10:35.789 that is true, and if so, why? Absolutely absolutely, it's it 146 00:10:35.669 --> 00:10:39.549 hasn't changed that sense, right. I mean products are there's parody. I 147 00:10:39.629 --> 00:10:43.789 can buy anything that I want, right, and I can buy it from 148 00:10:43.830 --> 00:10:45.909 all over the world. I can buy it from a hundred different vendors. 149 00:10:45.950 --> 00:10:48.389 Right. This is why your customer experience starts with the phone call or the 150 00:10:48.470 --> 00:10:52.419 message or the email, right. Or if you don't have chat today, 151 00:10:52.460 --> 00:10:54.659 right, I'm I'm asking kin tell my clients get chat right now. Get 152 00:10:54.700 --> 00:10:58.539 it today. If you don't have it, if you can't staff it, 153 00:10:58.740 --> 00:11:01.259 outsources to somebody that can pick up the phone or answer those talk and talk 154 00:11:01.259 --> 00:11:05.129 to people immediately. Don't let them go find five other options in two minutes 155 00:11:05.169 --> 00:11:09.610 with the search. Don't let him do it. Be there in every possible 156 00:11:09.649 --> 00:11:13.049 way you can be there. So it is still the core differentiator because, 157 00:11:13.090 --> 00:11:18.210 again, product pricing, you don't have it. You don't have differentiation on 158 00:11:18.289 --> 00:11:20.159 your product and your designs aren't that great and your software is not all that 159 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:24.840 better than the seventeen other options I can buy. It just isn't and you 160 00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:28.000 have to create differentiation and in different ways. You can do it in on 161 00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:33.230 a on a branding level, but you can create branding around your company mission 162 00:11:33.389 --> 00:11:37.669 and your vision and who you are. and Think about like Nike with Colin 163 00:11:37.710 --> 00:11:43.269 Kaepernick. Super controversial, but they did it for a reason because they knew 164 00:11:43.309 --> 00:11:46.990 their core audience that would resonate with them right and they were strengthened in their 165 00:11:46.029 --> 00:11:50.259 brand with their core audience. Me, I'm not their core audience. So, 166 00:11:50.620 --> 00:11:52.860 you know, may have annoyed me that they care because I wasn't their 167 00:11:52.899 --> 00:11:56.899 core buyer. But think about what they're selling. Tennis shoes. Really, 168 00:11:58.659 --> 00:12:01.929 is there any real differentiase in tennis shoes? I doubt it. I mean 169 00:12:01.970 --> 00:12:05.529 maybe at the high level of you're an Olympic athlete or you're a competi competitor. 170 00:12:05.570 --> 00:12:07.370 For a guy like me, I'm just walking on the name of my 171 00:12:07.450 --> 00:12:13.129 dogs. There's no differentiations. shootes. So the reality is for the vast 172 00:12:13.169 --> 00:12:16.320 majority of companies, you have to create this experience that's fundamentally different than your 173 00:12:16.360 --> 00:12:22.639 competition because there's no other way to differentiate. Do you just follow up there? 174 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:26.320 Do you feel like brand experience and customer experience are synonymous? Really? 175 00:12:26.360 --> 00:12:30.710 Your response triggered that question for me. Some people see them as synonymous, 176 00:12:30.750 --> 00:12:33.269 some people see them differently. It's a semantic argument. Even if you ask 177 00:12:33.350 --> 00:12:37.990 me, Yep, right, if you say it's branding, is this it's 178 00:12:37.149 --> 00:12:41.990 it's your your logo and your Swish, your content. Right, it's all 179 00:12:43.070 --> 00:12:46.220 the same. It's all one thing. We Mash it up in our heads 180 00:12:46.659 --> 00:12:50.340 and you know, when you walk into an apple store, you get a 181 00:12:50.379 --> 00:12:52.139 certain sense. Is that branding? Of course it is. They're telling you 182 00:12:52.299 --> 00:12:54.980 something about who they are and what they want to communicate. Who you are, 183 00:12:56.139 --> 00:12:58.169 right, that's real branding. Right, but it's telling you when they're 184 00:12:58.210 --> 00:13:03.169 telling you who you are or they're resonating or reflecting what you are, you 185 00:13:03.330 --> 00:13:07.090 want to be, your aspirations, and then they tied into the rest of 186 00:13:07.169 --> 00:13:11.250 those touch points the order process. This is a one of the kills me. 187 00:13:11.370 --> 00:13:13.120 Do you make it easy to give me money, right, or do 188 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:16.639 I put up barriers to paying me right? Make It easy for me to 189 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:20.759 buy? Is Your service good? Is Your is the you're a getting, 190 00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:24.639 your email campaigns, your marketing, all of this matter. Your sales people, 191 00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:28.110 if you're marketing and sales, deliver one experience and then your service people 192 00:13:28.549 --> 00:13:33.149 deliver another. Again, you're reckon it right. It all matters. It's 193 00:13:33.190 --> 00:13:35.429 all brand, it's all customer experience. You can define it anyway you want, 194 00:13:35.509 --> 00:13:39.149 but I think that's it. It's the sum total of all those things. 195 00:13:39.230 --> 00:13:41.899 But I don't care what your logo looks like or how nicer story is. 196 00:13:43.259 --> 00:13:45.340 If you don't get back to me, if you don't answer my question, 197 00:13:45.379 --> 00:13:46.620 if you don't help me, you ruined it and I don't care about 198 00:13:46.620 --> 00:13:50.659 any that stuff. Right or disconnects, break it, friction will grind it 199 00:13:50.779 --> 00:13:54.659 down or send me away. All of that. I don't know that this 200 00:13:54.730 --> 00:13:58.210 is semantics, but I would love to do a little passage here where I 201 00:13:58.250 --> 00:14:01.529 just ask you to give thoughts on other related words that occurred off in the 202 00:14:01.610 --> 00:14:05.889 inbound organization and are often kind of up for grabs. Are Different people to 203 00:14:05.970 --> 00:14:09.039 find them or think about them differently. And I guess I'll start with alignment, 204 00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:13.000 just to go to your you know, sales and marketing or delivering one 205 00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:16.399 thing and see us as to delivering another. You know you've got to disconnect. 206 00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:18.279 So alignment again, is one of the kind of things of the show, 207 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:22.600 especially across those three organizations, all in service of the customer. So 208 00:14:22.919 --> 00:14:26.789 when I say alignment, does that mean anything in particular to you? Candidly, 209 00:14:26.789 --> 00:14:30.509 you than when I say that word myself, I want to slap myself. 210 00:14:30.549 --> 00:14:33.629 I feel like it's it. It rings hollow in my head. It 211 00:14:33.669 --> 00:14:37.269 feels like I'm sounding like an salt when I use it, so I try 212 00:14:37.350 --> 00:14:41.899 not to. Really it's about communication, it's about team work, it's about 213 00:14:41.019 --> 00:14:43.980 making sure everybody's on the same page. I just threw you three more cliche 214 00:14:45.220 --> 00:14:50.539 so forgive me. But the the point of alignment is we ruin these words 215 00:14:50.580 --> 00:14:54.090 by over using them so much. And you know, if you sell well, 216 00:14:54.129 --> 00:14:56.129 we need to have marketing and sales aligned. To everybody would say, 217 00:14:56.129 --> 00:15:00.129 well, of course we do, but realizes what does that mean? Where 218 00:15:00.490 --> 00:15:03.409 is where is the rubber hit the road? There where it actually means something 219 00:15:03.450 --> 00:15:07.559 to the people that are that are in those departments. So I think alignment's 220 00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:09.600 critical. But the Keelieman, I think the week, the point we try 221 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:15.879 to make in the book was Inter departmental or Inner Department of either is important 222 00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:18.120 in terms of alignment. But the real linement is the CEO, leader, 223 00:15:18.519 --> 00:15:22.669 founder down. I was at a company that everybody would know. Their name 224 00:15:22.669 --> 00:15:26.230 was a national publishing brand, and we had a meeting with about a hundred 225 00:15:26.230 --> 00:15:30.190 of their people in the room and the CEO was sitting there, all their 226 00:15:30.230 --> 00:15:33.269 senior leaders, all their marketing and sales managers were there, and I asked 227 00:15:33.269 --> 00:15:35.580 him, I said, what's the mission of this company? said it can, 228 00:15:35.620 --> 00:15:37.980 they may tell me the mission the company, but hundred people, I 229 00:15:39.059 --> 00:15:41.539 knew what I was going to get. And the only person in the room 230 00:15:41.580 --> 00:15:43.740 that raised their hand, and who raised their hand? What do you think? 231 00:15:43.820 --> 00:15:48.299 Even the CMO, CEO, okay, Ceeo, rose it because he 232 00:15:48.379 --> 00:15:54.090 wrote it. Okay, no one else in the room knew it. Could, 233 00:15:54.210 --> 00:15:58.570 could cite it, could could relate to it. That's Lineman you call 234 00:15:58.610 --> 00:16:02.009 it whatever you want. That's a disconnect. That's where the leadership says one 235 00:16:02.049 --> 00:16:04.440 thing and the team says another. And what happened was there was a huge 236 00:16:04.519 --> 00:16:08.879 disconnect between what the CEO said and what their sales seem said. And I'll 237 00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:14.000 give you one example of the misalignment. Heat they had this kind of a 238 00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:18.480 classic software sales process. You got a Betr, you've got a count executives 239 00:16:18.519 --> 00:16:22.070 and you got customer success. that the kind of the bed are was a 240 00:16:22.149 --> 00:16:25.269 kind of a light bedr rollers just to try to get that initial appointment. 241 00:16:25.350 --> 00:16:27.190 It wasn't actually adding a whole lot of value. So I said to the 242 00:16:27.269 --> 00:16:30.509 CEO, I said, well, well, would you take a call from 243 00:16:30.509 --> 00:16:33.340 somebody that asks these kind of questions to set in appointment? Do you like 244 00:16:33.659 --> 00:16:37.259 that when you set up an initial appointment, you talk somebody that doesn't actually 245 00:16:37.259 --> 00:16:38.580 add any value and you never talked to again? He's like no, I 246 00:16:38.620 --> 00:16:41.340 hate that process. So well, why you do it? You got a 247 00:16:41.379 --> 00:16:45.779 room full of people over here doing that. So that to me is alignment 248 00:16:45.820 --> 00:16:49.210 and that's where I see the big disconnects. Right it's sales and working need 249 00:16:49.210 --> 00:16:53.250 to be aligned. But right now the top down that's the alignment I really 250 00:16:53.289 --> 00:16:56.450 go after with the clients that I work with right now. Interesting, probably 251 00:16:56.730 --> 00:17:00.919 a hot area and really good example in it reminded me to I think you 252 00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:06.279 all had a you and Dan had a passage on the golden rule of marketing, 253 00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:08.279 which is, you know, as you already said. Why, why 254 00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:11.319 is your team doing something that you absolutely hate yourself? All right, how 255 00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:17.349 about customer centricity? It's the only way you can survive today. Right again, 256 00:17:17.630 --> 00:17:22.430 if your product isn't you can't differentiate on product or pricing or where your 257 00:17:22.509 --> 00:17:26.109 promotion strategy are, in those classic marketing things. Right, you've got you've 258 00:17:26.109 --> 00:17:30.819 got to understand them better than they they often times understand themselves. This is 259 00:17:30.900 --> 00:17:33.460 why today, right now, I hear a lot of sales people doing this, 260 00:17:33.619 --> 00:17:37.779 in the middle of this mess. They're making a phone call where they're 261 00:17:37.779 --> 00:17:40.819 sending an email out and saying, how can we help you? Right, 262 00:17:41.019 --> 00:17:44.180 that sounds like a good question, that sounds Nice, sounds like I'm being 263 00:17:44.259 --> 00:17:45.930 customer centric. Oh, I want to help you, which you should, 264 00:17:47.529 --> 00:17:51.130 but that's wrong. Great, don't make them think you should know how you 265 00:17:51.250 --> 00:17:55.410 help them and start with that. Say immediately, I help, I can 266 00:17:55.490 --> 00:17:57.569 help you do this, this and this. How, when can we start, 267 00:17:57.569 --> 00:18:00.599 or how do you want to get moving? Don't ask them how do 268 00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:03.920 you can help them, because that's like basically saying what keeps you up at 269 00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:07.599 night, which just makes you want to go to sleep right, right, 270 00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:12.029 it's not a good question. So assignment. You're exactly leveraging an assignment on 271 00:18:12.230 --> 00:18:17.470 to the onto the customer, or probably do my job for me, make 272 00:18:17.509 --> 00:18:22.390 my life easy, and so I don't to think. And so your job 273 00:18:22.509 --> 00:18:26.069 is to know them better than they know themselves. And the why you should 274 00:18:26.109 --> 00:18:29.380 know them better than to know themselves. It's your should be talking to twenty 275 00:18:29.460 --> 00:18:32.220 three thousand and fifty a hundred other people just like them. This is the 276 00:18:32.299 --> 00:18:36.460 classic persona work. Right, you should know and you should have a broader 277 00:18:36.539 --> 00:18:40.779 base in many ways of understanding because you're working with more people just like them, 278 00:18:41.450 --> 00:18:42.569 and you should be able to go in and say, Hey, we're 279 00:18:42.609 --> 00:18:47.529 working with these other fifty companies and they're seeing this. Do you have this 280 00:18:47.650 --> 00:18:51.289 issue or can we help you with that issue? That's a whole different as 281 00:18:51.329 --> 00:18:55.009 a very simplistic way to do it, but you understand the point. It's 282 00:18:55.369 --> 00:18:59.680 if you're not thinking that way in a very deep, profound way. Then 283 00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:03.119 you're not, you're going to miss it. And I did a coaching call 284 00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:06.839 with about fifteen sales people earlier this week. It was a company I'd done 285 00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:11.390 a sales meeting with in February right before the travel stuff all stopped, and 286 00:19:11.789 --> 00:19:14.470 I was a follow up call with them to just fall up on some of 287 00:19:14.470 --> 00:19:17.309 the things we talked about in the sales meeting and I said to him, 288 00:19:17.309 --> 00:19:18.470 I said, you know how things going there? Like Oh, you know, 289 00:19:19.230 --> 00:19:22.509 there's not much going on right. Our guys are slow. You know, 290 00:19:22.589 --> 00:19:26.500 we're not mission critical. And I said, well, okay, who 291 00:19:26.740 --> 00:19:30.660 needs what you do? That is mission critical. This is fifteen sales people, 292 00:19:30.700 --> 00:19:33.579 the sales manager, the marketing manager. Silence, like they didn't, 293 00:19:33.579 --> 00:19:37.220 they hadn't thought of it. Are you kidding me up? Like your three 294 00:19:37.259 --> 00:19:41.049 weeks into a pandemic and you haven't nobody's thought about how you could help people 295 00:19:41.089 --> 00:19:44.289 that are really struggling right now. Is I was stunned. It was like, 296 00:19:45.049 --> 00:19:47.690 get off this phone call and go figure that out right now. That's 297 00:19:47.809 --> 00:19:52.410 your number one assignment. So it's just we're used to thinking product. Where 298 00:19:52.450 --> 00:19:56.680 used to thinking service or used to thinking software? We're it is hard. 299 00:19:57.000 --> 00:20:00.920 It's still hard to get out of your own head and think about customers. 300 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:03.160 And I would I would give this test to your audience and I would say 301 00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:07.589 if you think your customers centered, and ninety percent of companies are going to 302 00:20:07.630 --> 00:20:11.150 say they are. But if you ask ninety percent of those those companies, 303 00:20:11.190 --> 00:20:14.309 or if you ask those companies customers, like something like ten percent are going 304 00:20:14.309 --> 00:20:17.910 to say they're actually customer century. Look at your website. This is my 305 00:20:18.829 --> 00:20:22.819 by my platinum test. Look at your website. WHO's IT for? WHO's 306 00:20:22.859 --> 00:20:25.099 it talking to? Is it about you, you, or is it about 307 00:20:25.099 --> 00:20:29.500 them? And that's the test. If you're if you can put if you're 308 00:20:29.539 --> 00:20:33.099 thinking website is is about them and you put it together in a way that 309 00:20:33.180 --> 00:20:36.890 helps show them how you can help their business, then you're probably more a 310 00:20:37.009 --> 00:20:38.890 customer centric than most. But that's the that's usually the test to get. 311 00:20:38.890 --> 00:20:42.130 I'm industrial manufacturing a lot of bb stuff, so there's still a lot of 312 00:20:42.170 --> 00:20:45.250 people that don't do that very well at all and that's an easy one for 313 00:20:45.289 --> 00:20:48.769 me oftentimes. But I still think it's a good test. I think it's 314 00:20:48.769 --> 00:20:52.200 a good test to and and in in that answer there's you're talking about. 315 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:56.079 You know, this difference between here. Are Three ways I can help you 316 00:20:56.160 --> 00:21:00.319 right now versus. How can I help you right now? It reminded me 317 00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:03.680 of you know, I've had a couple prior to joining bomb on. My 318 00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:07.630 ran marketing inside local television stations and we had a lot of we were consulted 319 00:21:07.750 --> 00:21:14.269 often and the value for the consultant was exactly what you do. My the 320 00:21:14.309 --> 00:21:18.470 value I received was exactly as you described, which is they're not just talking 321 00:21:18.549 --> 00:21:22.700 to me as the marketing director at this local TV station and like making up, 322 00:21:22.539 --> 00:21:26.900 you know, solutions for me on the spot. They're traveling to thirty 323 00:21:26.940 --> 00:21:32.930 or forty other clients in between our last visit and bringing back the collected problems, 324 00:21:33.049 --> 00:21:37.769 opportunities, perspectives and really understood what I was up against and had stories 325 00:21:37.369 --> 00:21:41.970 that could help me see my own work differently. It's just a totally different 326 00:21:41.450 --> 00:21:48.079 mindset, and so I love this idea of a Bedr or really anyone listening, 327 00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:49.920 but but the bd are just because that's the seat you were talking from. 328 00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:57.920 There really being very intentional and conscientious about all of the conversations you're having, 329 00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:00.829 what you're picking up, the subtleties. In addition, to kind of 330 00:22:00.869 --> 00:22:06.190 like the big obvious macro things, things that are true of the persona has 331 00:22:06.230 --> 00:22:08.829 written down on paper, and things that maybe add some coloring or shading that 332 00:22:08.910 --> 00:22:14.269 are more interesting to what's written down on the persona piece of paper and using 333 00:22:14.349 --> 00:22:17.380 that to be of real value to the people that you're reaching out to. 334 00:22:18.579 --> 00:22:22.099 You mentioned TV there even I'm going to everybody in our space, right in 335 00:22:22.460 --> 00:22:26.019 our world, the the digital inbound world, we all say certain things. 336 00:22:26.380 --> 00:22:30.809 The sales process is fifty seven percent over before people call the sales people. 337 00:22:30.849 --> 00:22:33.049 I don't believe that. I wrote. It's in the book. I wouldn't 338 00:22:33.049 --> 00:22:37.769 write it again today. They also say traditional media is dead. I would 339 00:22:37.769 --> 00:22:41.089 argue with that too. I just went through a campaign with one of our 340 00:22:41.089 --> 00:22:45.400 clients in Illinois and they wanted to reach people that were building owners. They 341 00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:49.359 sold roofs. Okay, so the best way to reach people that so for 342 00:22:49.480 --> 00:22:53.240 roofs was not paid ads. Was An inbound worketting. Wasn't content, wasn't 343 00:22:53.279 --> 00:23:00.990 social media, it was advertising on cubs games because they were all cubs fans. 344 00:23:00.029 --> 00:23:03.950 And I went there, I visit. I was in southern lily driving 345 00:23:03.950 --> 00:23:07.309 around and I can't tell you how many people I saw that had Chicago cubs 346 00:23:07.549 --> 00:23:10.710 logos on their barns, are on the side or in their outbuildings. Right, 347 00:23:10.710 --> 00:23:11.750 a lot of rural area, and I was like, I get it 348 00:23:11.859 --> 00:23:15.059 now, these guys are all cubs fans. They Watch Baseball Games. That's 349 00:23:15.099 --> 00:23:18.099 how you reach it, right. But there is not one salesperson, there's 350 00:23:18.140 --> 00:23:22.779 not one, I guarantee there's not one TV ad sales person out there that 351 00:23:22.900 --> 00:23:26.490 connects the dots and says, HMM, you maybe you sell roofs. Okay, 352 00:23:26.650 --> 00:23:30.329 we had we can help you grow your business by selling ad time. 353 00:23:30.369 --> 00:23:33.009 All they do is they think they sell ad time. What they're really selling 354 00:23:33.170 --> 00:23:37.369 is eyeballs for people who own buildings in rural areas. Right. Who needs 355 00:23:37.490 --> 00:23:41.640 that? Right? Who owns? Who owns farms small towns? Right, 356 00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:45.359 connect the dots there. Now you're thinking customer centric and now of a sudden 357 00:23:45.559 --> 00:23:48.440 you can even make television ads seem like they're valuable, right, and they 358 00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:52.880 can be right for the right person at the right price for the you know, 359 00:23:52.319 --> 00:23:56.390 that's obviously not a small commitment, financial commitment, right, and so 360 00:23:56.509 --> 00:23:59.710 if you can land one of those deals, there's a high return on it. 361 00:23:59.789 --> 00:24:02.349 So if you run a whole bunch of ads at a high cost. 362 00:24:02.390 --> 00:24:04.430 It might not work in some situations, but it may and others. And 363 00:24:04.509 --> 00:24:08.910 so the declaration of death of all kinds of things is usually a comedy routine, 364 00:24:08.990 --> 00:24:11.940 the way I read it, and it's usually to the case that it 365 00:24:12.019 --> 00:24:15.859 does turn out to be true, it's usually a decade or two too early. 366 00:24:15.299 --> 00:24:21.779 And in general it's a both and rather than an either or like that's 367 00:24:21.859 --> 00:24:25.890 done. This is starting. It's usually a both and. There's no question 368 00:24:26.089 --> 00:24:30.089 certain types of traditional media are nowhere near as effective as is they they have 369 00:24:30.289 --> 00:24:32.650 been in the past. I don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that 370 00:24:32.769 --> 00:24:34.769 and or they're over priced right, like they might still be valuable, just 371 00:24:34.890 --> 00:24:40.079 not at that price point right, but it's it's my buddy Dan tires always 372 00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:42.599 says the riches are in the niches, and if you can niche out an 373 00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:47.440 audience that watches this type of television right, then great, you can use 374 00:24:47.480 --> 00:24:49.880 that a radio right. There's still there, still places, but you've got 375 00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:52.789 to know right, you've got to know who your persona is. This this 376 00:24:53.269 --> 00:24:56.349 mass media thing wherever we're going to hit everybody with the same message. That 377 00:24:56.509 --> 00:25:00.750 doesn't work. But if you can get down to the niche and you can 378 00:25:00.750 --> 00:25:04.349 get down to the persona and the target audience. Then then I'm always agnostic 379 00:25:04.430 --> 00:25:07.059 when it comes to tactics. I could care less what the tactics are. 380 00:25:07.099 --> 00:25:10.420 I want to know what works. I want to know what my client wants 381 00:25:10.460 --> 00:25:12.539 to put their audience is actually going to consume. That's what I'm going to 382 00:25:12.619 --> 00:25:17.019 use. Yeah, it's good. It's no reason to throw anything out without 383 00:25:17.140 --> 00:25:18.859 figuring out the goal and some of the various ways you can get there. 384 00:25:19.220 --> 00:25:22.809 Okay, last one here in this little passage and then we're going to get 385 00:25:22.849 --> 00:25:25.769 that. I'm I got some quotes from the book for You right back into 386 00:25:25.769 --> 00:25:29.529 your book to get at the ideas and maybe a speed round style. But 387 00:25:29.730 --> 00:25:33.809 the last word that I would love your thoughts on is personalization. Yeah, 388 00:25:33.890 --> 00:25:41.200 the personalization is again it's heading for the market of one right, where this 389 00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:45.200 personalization tokens and emails are Nice, those kind of things are that's not personalization 390 00:25:45.240 --> 00:25:49.670 right. Real personalization is going to happen when I can pick the customer experience 391 00:25:49.789 --> 00:25:55.509 I want, that I can go along the buying path I choose. Now, 392 00:25:55.549 --> 00:25:59.109 again in consumer products and things like software, like what you do you. 393 00:25:59.309 --> 00:26:00.750 It's easier to do that it is in something, you say, like 394 00:26:00.789 --> 00:26:07.140 a large piece of capital equipment. But even so there's multiple new ways to 395 00:26:07.660 --> 00:26:12.380 sell or to consume, even things like capital equipment that didn't exist ten years 396 00:26:12.380 --> 00:26:15.019 ago, even five years ago. So I'm going to be able to pick 397 00:26:15.059 --> 00:26:18.009 my experience. I'm going to be able to pick the pacing that I want 398 00:26:18.009 --> 00:26:22.089 to go. I either I want to do facetoface meetings or I want to 399 00:26:22.130 --> 00:26:25.210 do zoo meetings, or I wanted to chat communication. I'm going to do 400 00:26:25.410 --> 00:26:29.250 phone Communications. I'm going to pick the way I want to engage with you 401 00:26:29.930 --> 00:26:33.440 and I'm going to personalize the process. That doesn't mean, again, buyers 402 00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:38.519 won't need help. I think the idea that inbound is about limitating sales people 403 00:26:38.839 --> 00:26:42.039 is an erroneous one and I think in bounds got a little bit of a 404 00:26:42.039 --> 00:26:45.960 bad rap and Sir and circles, because of its sales people are more important 405 00:26:45.960 --> 00:26:49.589 when it comes in bound. Right. In bound to me is that you 406 00:26:49.710 --> 00:26:53.589 get to be found when they look or when they need you, but when 407 00:26:53.630 --> 00:26:57.150 they find you, then you are an expert and you guide them through the 408 00:26:57.190 --> 00:27:00.900 process. They may not know how to go from Point A to point B. 409 00:27:02.380 --> 00:27:04.660 They don't know how to get all the stakeholders internally aligned. They don't 410 00:27:04.700 --> 00:27:08.099 know how to evaluate all the different options or the competitors. Your job is 411 00:27:08.140 --> 00:27:11.660 a salespersus. Help them do that. No, no one article, no 412 00:27:11.940 --> 00:27:15.650 one thing's going to solve that for a complex sale. If you've got a 413 00:27:15.769 --> 00:27:19.049 transactional sale, fine, you could probably be a hundred percent inbound. Go 414 00:27:19.170 --> 00:27:22.809 digital as never talk to a human being. And if you're over here on 415 00:27:22.849 --> 00:27:26.890 the curve and complexity, it's going to be far less inbound and way more 416 00:27:27.210 --> 00:27:33.000 kind of traditional sales where you think about like network solutions for software for companies, 417 00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:37.119 or they get mentioned capital equipment, which is when I handle a lot 418 00:27:37.160 --> 00:27:41.079 right. There's a lot of moving parts there. NOPE, people make research, 419 00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:45.470 say a million dollar laser system online, but they're not going to buy 420 00:27:45.589 --> 00:27:48.470 it because they saw a blog post were your white paper was amazing. Where 421 00:27:48.509 --> 00:27:52.230 do I sign? It's not going to have it. You got to get 422 00:27:52.269 --> 00:27:56.069 engineering involved, plant management, the electrical guys, the production guys, the 423 00:27:56.109 --> 00:27:59.660 product is there's a bunch of stakeholder so that's not in bound. Right in 424 00:27:59.779 --> 00:28:03.180 bounds going to affect that. They're the ideas of inbound should influence that process, 425 00:28:04.059 --> 00:28:10.059 sharing content, helping for free self service content, again being helpful. 426 00:28:10.059 --> 00:28:14.009 First all the in principles we talked about are still there. Are But it's 427 00:28:14.049 --> 00:28:15.769 still going to be very complex Sao and it's going to have it's going to 428 00:28:15.809 --> 00:28:18.809 take a long time, it's gonna have a lot of stakeholders. Right. 429 00:28:18.849 --> 00:28:22.569 So there's still a huge opportunity for sales people to act like they're inbound and 430 00:28:22.009 --> 00:28:26.130 apply it to those complex situations, which is what I love to do. 431 00:28:26.289 --> 00:28:29.079 That's my thing that I like to work on. I don't like the transaction 432 00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:32.240 so much, I like the complex. Love it. I and the one 433 00:28:32.279 --> 00:28:34.680 thing I really appreciate about what you did with personalization. There's so many people 434 00:28:34.759 --> 00:28:38.720 think of it where you started, which is my emails or, you know, 435 00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:44.069 my messaging, but you took it immediately to the experience level of how 436 00:28:44.150 --> 00:28:47.789 can we make this experience personalized? All right, so inbound organization. I 437 00:28:47.910 --> 00:28:51.029 love the book. I actually had Dan on the show and talked about it. 438 00:28:51.069 --> 00:28:52.990 I'm excited to have you. I tried to do this as a lightning 439 00:28:53.029 --> 00:28:57.059 round with Dan and you can predict how that at, how that worked out, 440 00:28:57.500 --> 00:29:00.980 and folks can heared on episode forty. So I'm going to try similar 441 00:29:02.460 --> 00:29:06.380 and so just give me, like your quick response to when I give you 442 00:29:06.420 --> 00:29:08.819 a line from from the book that you authored. Just give me a couple 443 00:29:08.859 --> 00:29:12.329 thoughts on it. You got it from the open. You don't want to 444 00:29:12.410 --> 00:29:18.130 find people who fit the culture, you want to find people who add to 445 00:29:18.289 --> 00:29:22.890 it. That's real diversity, if you ask me. Great, right. 446 00:29:22.930 --> 00:29:26.119 You said short answers. That was I gave you a game. You One 447 00:29:26.200 --> 00:29:30.000 for Aka. Yeah, okay, I went. I want to I want 448 00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:33.960 to see diversity of opinions and ideas and thought processes in the way they look 449 00:29:33.960 --> 00:29:37.400 at the world. That's really going to drive your culture right. Frame it 450 00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:41.069 up, give him a frame people, a framework for people to work in. 451 00:29:41.430 --> 00:29:42.670 Give me the hard rails and let him run. Love it, and 452 00:29:42.789 --> 00:29:47.390 that's that is like a really nice add to the additive piece there at the 453 00:29:47.390 --> 00:29:51.589 end. Okay, from the regarding content, the value people get from your 454 00:29:51.710 --> 00:29:56.339 content is related to the amount of thought you put into it. Great quote 455 00:29:56.460 --> 00:30:00.339 from I think it was David McCullough, one of my favorite historians. I 456 00:30:02.140 --> 00:30:07.690 love historical writing. He said writing is thinking and I love that quote because 457 00:30:07.930 --> 00:30:11.170 you have to think first. You anybody can write, anybody can put things 458 00:30:11.210 --> 00:30:15.450 down the paper, but to real writing, which is content, is about 459 00:30:15.849 --> 00:30:19.250 really about what your message is, and so it really requires you to think. 460 00:30:19.250 --> 00:30:22.119 And that gets back to all the other things we were just talking about, 461 00:30:22.119 --> 00:30:25.279 customer centricity and pathetic. Put yourself on their shoes, right, and 462 00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:29.359 that's probably one of the reasons we so see so much bad content. If 463 00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:34.039 your sales reps are still using a traditional sales playbook, you may be frustrating 464 00:30:34.279 --> 00:30:37.710 your prospects and customers. My goodness, when's the last time you got a 465 00:30:37.750 --> 00:30:41.150 cold Coo Ethan, I'm going to watch how my phone is nowhere, but 466 00:30:41.190 --> 00:30:45.789 I get tons of cold emails and tons of cold linkedin messages. Well, 467 00:30:45.869 --> 00:30:48.589 we all hate the code emails, right. So somebody's running that playbook and 468 00:30:48.589 --> 00:30:51.619 they don't work. But my my favorite is the is, the is, 469 00:30:51.660 --> 00:30:53.099 the cold calls. I love cold calls. I answer them because I want 470 00:30:53.099 --> 00:30:56.779 to hear what people are being taught, and they're being taught this hello, 471 00:30:56.900 --> 00:31:00.579 is this todd my answer is this. I say, what's the name on 472 00:31:00.660 --> 00:31:04.450 your call sheet? They stop, they got what and they said, well, 473 00:31:04.450 --> 00:31:07.250 how are you today? I said, you don't really care. That's 474 00:31:07.289 --> 00:31:11.809 my answer like they have no response, they're done, and it's like that's 475 00:31:11.849 --> 00:31:14.490 somebody who's running a traditional playbook. They put a bunch of people in a 476 00:31:14.490 --> 00:31:17.809 room and said follow the script. And you're annoying me by a calling me 477 00:31:17.849 --> 00:31:19.640 number one, and then you're annoying me twice by saying what my name is, 478 00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:22.119 what you already know, and second of all, you don't care how 479 00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:26.000 I am wasting my time again. Get to the point, have a value 480 00:31:26.039 --> 00:31:30.559 proposition to be able to communicate it quickly. If I'm interested, I'll say 481 00:31:30.680 --> 00:31:33.190 that's interesting, tell me more, but your I don't even let you get 482 00:31:33.230 --> 00:31:37.309 there. If you run that old playbook, and so many people still run 483 00:31:37.349 --> 00:31:40.910 those old garbage playbooks. That's why I break it up. Love it, 484 00:31:41.349 --> 00:31:45.509 but I appreciate the passion there too. Okay, kind of sales service here. 485 00:31:45.829 --> 00:31:51.859 Your Service Organization is more important than your sales organization when it comes to 486 00:31:52.059 --> 00:31:56.500 generating net new customers. Yep, well again we live in the I just 487 00:31:56.660 --> 00:32:00.420 interviewed Mark Schaeffer, who just came up with a fabulous book marketing rebellion. 488 00:32:00.450 --> 00:32:06.369 Check out his book and he talked about this a lot. And David Mean 489 00:32:06.410 --> 00:32:09.890 Rescott's new book fanocracy also talks about this a lot. Your customers, ratings, 490 00:32:10.009 --> 00:32:15.650 reviews, they become your best sales people because people trust third party generated 491 00:32:15.720 --> 00:32:19.400 content. So if your service people weren't taking care of them, your third 492 00:32:19.480 --> 00:32:22.880 party content stinks, your ratings are bad, so therefore you're not getting there's 493 00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:27.319 that new customers. It's that simple. Your service people may better take care 494 00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:31.069 of them, because those customers should be your best salespeok, awesome. You'll 495 00:32:31.109 --> 00:32:37.230 love this quote from just a recently released episode with Edbrialt, the the CMODA 496 00:32:37.670 --> 00:32:43.390 digital asset management company called a Primo, and he told me when I interviewed 497 00:32:43.430 --> 00:32:45.420 him from the show that he had to Mantras for two thousand and twenty and 498 00:32:45.420 --> 00:32:50.140 I'll just give you one of them, and his is the customer is the 499 00:32:50.220 --> 00:32:53.859 new marketer and he's just trying to take this in and kind of operationalize it 500 00:32:54.220 --> 00:32:58.970 in some kind of a new, more developed way. Okay, service, 501 00:32:59.490 --> 00:33:06.569 for most modern buyers self, service is excellent service. Well, we work 502 00:33:07.490 --> 00:33:09.289 seven all kind of weird hours and times. Right, if I'm going your 503 00:33:09.329 --> 00:33:14.519 website and I want to see how to solve a problem or get some certain 504 00:33:14.519 --> 00:33:16.440 information, I want to be able to get that quickly. Again, if 505 00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:20.559 it gets more complex, I want to be able to find the right person 506 00:33:20.599 --> 00:33:24.359 and have that connected to that person quickly. Don't put me in the here's 507 00:33:24.359 --> 00:33:29.750 another old playbook. Please listen to all these options, because there are menys 508 00:33:29.829 --> 00:33:31.990 recently changed and you have to listen to this foolish menu. Or the other 509 00:33:32.029 --> 00:33:36.670 one is where this is being recorded for quality purposes. Give me a break. 510 00:33:37.069 --> 00:33:40.430 It's see why purposes. It's not quality purposes. And so again, 511 00:33:40.500 --> 00:33:45.180 those are the old playbooks and those are killing self service. It makes me 512 00:33:45.299 --> 00:33:47.660 want to just scream when I hear those. See those things make it easy 513 00:33:47.740 --> 00:33:52.460 for me to get to the people I want right use the classic website navigation 514 00:33:52.500 --> 00:33:59.049 idea that you should have everything within three clicks. There's every service touch point. 515 00:33:59.569 --> 00:34:04.089 You offer the equivalent of three clicks away from the answer. Shoot for 516 00:34:04.170 --> 00:34:07.289 something like that. Yeah, another nice practical rule here that you've that you've 517 00:34:07.329 --> 00:34:10.599 offered. Last asked one, and this was from the close. We are 518 00:34:10.639 --> 00:34:15.599 all connected and no one can succeed alone. Well, it's that's more poignant 519 00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:20.880 than ever right now in the middle of this mess. And Yeah, this 520 00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:24.429 is a tough time and I think that the companies that understand how how to 521 00:34:24.550 --> 00:34:30.070 be human and be understanding and empathetic and not self serving are the ones that 522 00:34:30.190 --> 00:34:34.389 win. And I will tell you another one. I'm going to go out 523 00:34:34.389 --> 00:34:37.389 on a limb here on this one, and that the companies that treat their 524 00:34:37.429 --> 00:34:42.460 employees right through this process are going to be the ones that win. Number 525 00:34:42.500 --> 00:34:45.059 One, your employees do the exact same thing we just talked about with customers. 526 00:34:45.340 --> 00:34:49.659 Employees tell other people how it is to work for you and if you 527 00:34:49.780 --> 00:34:52.699 treated them poorly, if you let them go, if you if you as 528 00:34:52.780 --> 00:34:55.210 the first opportunity you cut a bunch of your people, that's going to be 529 00:34:55.329 --> 00:34:58.650 online, it's going to be on things like glass door. They're going to 530 00:34:58.690 --> 00:35:00.809 tell their friends, it's going to hurt you and, frankly, if I 531 00:35:00.969 --> 00:35:04.969 know personally, if I know you treat you employees that way, I'm not 532 00:35:05.050 --> 00:35:07.199 coming back, because now's the time when we need to pull together and say 533 00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:09.440 I'm going to do a little extra for my players, I'm going to take 534 00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:12.960 care of them, I'm going to ask more of them maybe, but I'm 535 00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:15.360 also going to take care of companies that do that. It should be the 536 00:35:15.400 --> 00:35:19.000 ones that win, and they rightfully should be. Recognized for doing it so 537 00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:23.230 good. In you know, we often talk about the employee experience as a 538 00:35:23.349 --> 00:35:30.510 necessary precursor of an excellent customer experience, and it's really interesting to think about. 539 00:35:30.110 --> 00:35:32.269 You know, up to this point. We'll see how it all shakes 540 00:35:32.309 --> 00:35:37.659 out, but especially in kind of competitive industries, in hard to find Allan 541 00:35:38.460 --> 00:35:45.139 you have to market your organization essentially and create employee experiences and build into the 542 00:35:45.179 --> 00:35:50.690 employee the same way you need to go to market for your customers. Customers 543 00:35:50.730 --> 00:35:52.170 and employees to me, are like breathing and eating. You got to do 544 00:35:52.329 --> 00:35:55.969 both. They're not the same, they're both critical. You can't live without 545 00:35:57.010 --> 00:35:58.969 them, right. Yeah, so it's not a matter of one or the 546 00:35:59.010 --> 00:36:01.570 other, or first or second, it's they're both important. Yeah, I 547 00:36:01.690 --> 00:36:07.360 did, but I think historically we've probably taken the employee relationship for granted, 548 00:36:07.400 --> 00:36:09.880 whereas the customers, you know, always been in the conversation. All right, 549 00:36:10.199 --> 00:36:15.239 before we go to a couple fun closing elements, I would love, 550 00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:20.070 I know you you think about and talk a lot about mindset, and so 551 00:36:20.150 --> 00:36:22.670 I just love for you to kind of, you know, tea it up 552 00:36:22.710 --> 00:36:24.190 nice and easy for you. You hit it wherever you want to go. 553 00:36:24.829 --> 00:36:29.110 You know, why is mindset so important and what? What's maybe a mindset 554 00:36:29.190 --> 00:36:32.340 tip that people listening can take away? Well, I guess. I guess 555 00:36:32.460 --> 00:36:38.420 the mindset piece that's so critical is it ultimately comes back as to why you're 556 00:36:38.460 --> 00:36:43.099 there you. Are you there for yourself? Are you if you're the leader 557 00:36:43.099 --> 00:36:45.219 of a business or your league, of a group or division or even a 558 00:36:45.340 --> 00:36:49.489 team? Are you there for yourself? Are you there for your ego? 559 00:36:49.690 --> 00:36:52.889 Are you there for your own monetary game, or you there for your own 560 00:36:52.929 --> 00:36:57.010 career? Are you there for whatever selfish reason you can think of? Or 561 00:36:57.210 --> 00:37:00.250 you there to contribute to other people? And I think this is just a 562 00:37:00.289 --> 00:37:05.039 fundamental human thing. Right there's givers and takers, and the the givers win, 563 00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:07.760 the takers will be found out. And the world that we're living in 564 00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:12.639 now and the world that we're moving forward to the people that are that care 565 00:37:12.679 --> 00:37:15.710 about others first, that put others ahead of themselves. These are not new 566 00:37:15.789 --> 00:37:20.230 ideas, he think. These go way back, and the people that think 567 00:37:20.309 --> 00:37:24.510 of others first and put the success of other people first will be the ones 568 00:37:24.550 --> 00:37:28.469 that do well. And, frankly, it's just the right way to live. 569 00:37:29.190 --> 00:37:31.780 And again, all the stuff that's going on right now. I think 570 00:37:31.820 --> 00:37:37.860 the mindset of people first over profits. I mean, you got to have 571 00:37:37.940 --> 00:37:39.699 profits, I know, I get it, but there's a time and there's 572 00:37:39.699 --> 00:37:45.050 a place and there's a way to grow business in a way that also grows 573 00:37:45.130 --> 00:37:52.250 people and is helpful to people both inside the company out. And that's the 574 00:37:52.369 --> 00:37:55.449 mindset leaders have to have. And and it's hard when it's the survival question. 575 00:37:55.530 --> 00:38:00.079 Right now it's me versus them, but they're surviving and they're surviving. 576 00:38:00.719 --> 00:38:04.519 So I I think, you know you. I'd go back to classical literature. 577 00:38:04.519 --> 00:38:07.880 This is even marketing stuff right. I'm going back to without getting too 578 00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:10.519 philosophical with you, I'd go back to kind of classic literature about why we're 579 00:38:10.599 --> 00:38:14.949 here. Think about you know what, what what our purposes here, and 580 00:38:15.110 --> 00:38:19.469 very rarely is it going to be to make money. So find that core 581 00:38:19.590 --> 00:38:22.710 purpose, tie back into that. People that really really understand that and live 582 00:38:22.789 --> 00:38:24.630 that are going to be the ones that, I think you're going to see 583 00:38:24.630 --> 00:38:29.900 the most success. Awesome, that's fantastic. I encourage folks to hit the 584 00:38:29.980 --> 00:38:32.139 bounce back on it and, especially with those open questions, be honest with 585 00:38:32.300 --> 00:38:36.739 yourself. You know, as I was trying is as following along with your 586 00:38:36.780 --> 00:38:38.980 questions. For myself is like yeah, a little bit, yeah, a 587 00:38:39.059 --> 00:38:43.050 little bit. I mean I definitely have selfish motivations and that's okay. I 588 00:38:43.130 --> 00:38:45.889 just need to be aware of them and to think about, you know, 589 00:38:45.090 --> 00:38:51.050 how I'm making my decisions and what my real motivations are. As, as 590 00:38:51.329 --> 00:38:55.519 you know, feelings become thoughts become the actions, and that's just beautiful. 591 00:38:55.559 --> 00:39:00.800 I'm really encouraged by your future. Thank you. I hope it comes to 592 00:39:00.920 --> 00:39:06.719 pass. I live it every day. I'm I've been very blessed and I've 593 00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:10.630 I've had a just passed eleven years with our business top line results, and 594 00:39:12.510 --> 00:39:15.349 it's my wife and I, so it's a joy every day to work together 595 00:39:15.469 --> 00:39:19.230 and I've just love it. I love working with her and work with my 596 00:39:19.269 --> 00:39:22.829 daughters and my business and and lots of great people. So we're helping each 597 00:39:22.829 --> 00:39:25.699 other and we're trying to help our clients the best we can and we just 598 00:39:25.820 --> 00:39:28.980 do that and the more we do that, the more successful we are. 599 00:39:28.980 --> 00:39:30.739 When I start thinking about money or aren't trying to think about closing the big 600 00:39:30.780 --> 00:39:35.099 deal, that's when I don't get them interesting. It's so good and I 601 00:39:35.460 --> 00:39:38.530 just think it's just so fundamentally attractive. I think that's how you attract good 602 00:39:38.650 --> 00:39:43.690 team members. Obviously yours have some level of commitment just baked in by the 603 00:39:43.730 --> 00:39:46.210 fact that some of your family members. But you know, I do think 604 00:39:46.250 --> 00:39:51.530 good good attracts good. Like attracts like and it builds on it on itself, 605 00:39:51.690 --> 00:39:53.519 and so that's awesome. Love it. I'm so glad I asked that. 606 00:39:54.079 --> 00:39:58.280 So for folks who enjoyed this conversation, of course, I had todd's 607 00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:02.840 co author, Dan Tire on episode forty of this podcast, and that one 608 00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:07.309 was called the biggest transformation and in prospecting in thirty years. We ended up 609 00:40:07.349 --> 00:40:12.190 talking a lot about video, in simple videos places some of our typed out 610 00:40:12.230 --> 00:40:15.909 text, and then a couple episodes later I had Sangraum Vagere, who's the 611 00:40:15.949 --> 00:40:21.230 cofounder and chief of agelistic terminus, and we talked about five ways internal alignment 612 00:40:21.309 --> 00:40:24.300 can elevate your customer experience. So we were a bit more inward facing, 613 00:40:24.380 --> 00:40:30.300 we were a little bit more culture and process and alignment oriented in that conversation. 614 00:40:30.420 --> 00:40:31.980 So you'll enjoy those two. So, todd, this is great. 615 00:40:31.980 --> 00:40:35.500 I'm so glad we're able to spend time together. I have a few more 616 00:40:35.539 --> 00:40:37.570 things, though, before I let you go. I always like, because 617 00:40:37.610 --> 00:40:42.849 relationships are our number one core value among five, I like to give you 618 00:40:42.849 --> 00:40:45.210 the chance to think or mention someone who's had a positive impact on your life 619 00:40:45.250 --> 00:40:50.199 or your career. But we've been talking about Dan tire from hub spot. 620 00:40:50.239 --> 00:40:53.719 I'll mention Dan because it was I learned so much from him. Were working 621 00:40:53.760 --> 00:41:00.519 on the book together and he is just such a universally consistently positive, uplifts 622 00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:01.599 being person. I told you I just did a conversation. I had a 623 00:41:01.639 --> 00:41:05.909 conversation with Dan and another person this morning and he spent the first three minutes 624 00:41:05.949 --> 00:41:07.429 telling the other person how great I was, and I said there's only other 625 00:41:07.469 --> 00:41:09.510 person in the world that does as my mom, and she doesn't even do 626 00:41:09.550 --> 00:41:14.190 it as much as Dan, and he's part of it's a bigger piece there 627 00:41:14.190 --> 00:41:16.989 and the companies. I appreciate hub spot, who's connected we're Dan works. 628 00:41:17.110 --> 00:41:21.780 is also when I really appreciate having work with them for over ten years and 629 00:41:22.139 --> 00:41:25.340 seeing their response to the this situation, how they've come out with new products 630 00:41:25.340 --> 00:41:29.340 and I can see some things on the back end how they're really trying to 631 00:41:29.380 --> 00:41:32.050 take care of customers and do the right thing. That's impressive and he's a 632 00:41:32.090 --> 00:41:37.530 big part of that. And so those two the company in person, are 633 00:41:37.530 --> 00:41:39.210 big ones. There's lots of other ones, but they has been a special 634 00:41:39.250 --> 00:41:44.969 friend and mentor and a coach and and just a lot of things, and 635 00:41:45.530 --> 00:41:46.559 so it was a great opportunity to write a book with them because we got 636 00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:50.519 to spend a lot of time together, and so Dan was a big influence 637 00:41:50.559 --> 00:41:52.719 on me, for sure, awesome and I really enjoyed it. I guess 638 00:41:52.719 --> 00:41:55.559 I should have recorded it. We were talking a little bit about how that 639 00:41:55.599 --> 00:42:00.079 project came together between the two of you and as a pleasure and in what 640 00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:02.670 you offered there. What a great example of you know, leading by giving 641 00:42:04.349 --> 00:42:08.510 you know, spending three minutes propping you up like for no particular reason except 642 00:42:08.510 --> 00:42:14.429 that he likes to give credit where it's due. So, besides hub spot, 643 00:42:14.469 --> 00:42:16.780 do you maybe want to give mention to a company that you really appreciate 644 00:42:16.820 --> 00:42:21.900 or enjoy or respect for the experience that they that they deliver for you as 645 00:42:21.900 --> 00:42:25.099 a customer? This is going to be kind of odd. My doctor, 646 00:42:25.139 --> 00:42:29.980 I'm excited already. Who you don't? Nobody. You want I can know 647 00:42:30.090 --> 00:42:32.889 my doctor, but they have. They have. First of all, they 648 00:42:32.929 --> 00:42:37.690 already had figured out how to set up appointments correctly, give me a portal 649 00:42:37.769 --> 00:42:40.969 online to get all my information in one place. They figured out, I 650 00:42:42.050 --> 00:42:44.320 don't know how they did, it's a miracle. They figure out how to 651 00:42:44.400 --> 00:42:47.480 actually get me into the office when I was scheduled. I don't know how 652 00:42:47.480 --> 00:42:50.920 they do it. I think they actually learn how to keep a schedule. 653 00:42:51.519 --> 00:42:53.239 What a concept, right. So I was already thrilled like that. They 654 00:42:53.400 --> 00:42:55.840 you know, I get there, I give the information, I'm in the 655 00:42:55.920 --> 00:42:59.750 office, I'm in the room within a minute or two, like never sit 656 00:42:59.869 --> 00:43:02.989 there. It's great. Everything's digital. I don't have paperwork. They any 657 00:43:04.030 --> 00:43:07.630 prescriptions or whatever, all automatically those, the pharmacy's all set up super easy. 658 00:43:07.389 --> 00:43:12.389 Then, in this mayhem, they went to tell a medicine, and 659 00:43:12.980 --> 00:43:15.500 now we're doing you can do these kind of things. I have. I 660 00:43:15.579 --> 00:43:19.260 luckily I haven't had any reason too, but they immediately switch to tell a 661 00:43:19.340 --> 00:43:24.420 medicine like that, and so that to me's a small business that is flexible 662 00:43:24.539 --> 00:43:29.369 and it's thinking about their customers, thinking about the concerns I might have in 663 00:43:29.489 --> 00:43:32.489 a time of uncertainty and giving me options and really great ways to connect. 664 00:43:34.010 --> 00:43:37.170 And I think that's the message for any company, doesn't matter if you're a 665 00:43:37.489 --> 00:43:42.280 solo preneur or a giant company. Now's the time to pivot and really think 666 00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:45.960 about what those other people want and and those are the people, those are 667 00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:47.960 the companies, that are going to really I'm going to remember, we're all 668 00:43:47.960 --> 00:43:53.760 going remember great powerful story there, because that's all customer experience in like exceeding 669 00:43:53.880 --> 00:43:58.630 expectations. And mean it's shocking how low that expectation was. Of like, 670 00:43:59.869 --> 00:44:01.269 am I going to you know, for my my appointments at Two am? 671 00:44:01.269 --> 00:44:04.550 I going to get in it to thirty or two hundred and forty five or 672 00:44:04.630 --> 00:44:07.030 what I like? That's a very low expectation. But the idea that no 673 00:44:07.150 --> 00:44:13.460 one beats it, rarely beats it except for this this team. Here's my 674 00:44:13.579 --> 00:44:15.179 favorite. You go into the doctor's office or the dentist or whoever, and 675 00:44:15.260 --> 00:44:17.699 they say, if you miss an appointment, we're going to charge you thirty. 676 00:44:19.300 --> 00:44:22.420 Right, but yet I'll sit there for an hour. My rate higher 677 00:44:22.420 --> 00:44:24.849 than thirty an hour. You're going to give me, pay me for my 678 00:44:24.969 --> 00:44:29.690 hour. You wasted. Heck now, right. I will say, just 679 00:44:29.889 --> 00:44:34.170 for just so you can feel some kinship, Aaron Torik, who is a 680 00:44:34.250 --> 00:44:38.760 an attorney, marketing law attorney, intellectual property attorney. I had her on. 681 00:44:38.920 --> 00:44:43.519 We talked about things that you're marketing team is doing that maybe illegal and 682 00:44:44.199 --> 00:44:47.159 she took the opportunity to prop up her dentist's office and the language there was 683 00:44:47.199 --> 00:44:53.750 around concierge style service from her dentist's office. So I've only heard that. 684 00:44:53.829 --> 00:44:57.989 I've asked this of dozens and dozens of people, maybe more than seventy, 685 00:44:58.110 --> 00:45:01.550 and so I've only had what other answer quite like yours. So for folks 686 00:45:01.590 --> 00:45:05.030 and enjoy this conversation, Tad, if they want to follow up with you, 687 00:45:05.110 --> 00:45:09.420 or topline results or the manufacturing show that you host or inbound organization, 688 00:45:09.460 --> 00:45:14.420 where some places you would send people if they enjoyed this conversation? Well, 689 00:45:14.619 --> 00:45:17.179 thanks for offering the easiest place to find all that is at our website, 690 00:45:17.219 --> 00:45:22.929 top line resultscom, or you can just google todd hockenberry. I'm on you'll 691 00:45:22.929 --> 00:45:25.090 find pull up a bunch of stuff. I'm on Linkedin. I'd love to 692 00:45:25.130 --> 00:45:30.650 connect with you there and I do a podcast called the manufacturing show and it's 693 00:45:30.769 --> 00:45:36.079 really focused on the industrial and manufacturing world and would love you to check that 694 00:45:36.159 --> 00:45:38.599 out as well. And there's also a site for the book in bound Organizationcom. 695 00:45:38.760 --> 00:45:42.880 Lots of Info there too. Awesome, toad, thank you so much 696 00:45:42.920 --> 00:45:45.039 for your time. I really appreciate it. I absolutely love the book. 697 00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:50.789 I really appreciate your approach to work into life and I appreciate you sharing it 698 00:45:50.829 --> 00:45:53.190 here on the customer experience podcast. Bethan, my pleasure. Thank you for 699 00:45:53.469 --> 00:46:00.230 allowing to be on the show. Todd's take on givers and takers and the 700 00:46:00.349 --> 00:46:02.949 right way to lead our lives and grow our businesses is one of the more 701 00:46:04.070 --> 00:46:09.739 epic takes on the CX series of BTB growth and on the customer experience podcast. 702 00:46:10.619 --> 00:46:15.539 Learn more about the customer experience podcast and check out additional episodes, video 703 00:46:15.739 --> 00:46:25.730 clips and short write ups by visiting Bombombcomas podcast. That's bomb Bombcom podcast. 704 00:46:27.449 --> 00:46:30.610 My name is Ethan, but I welcome your connection on Linkedin and I thank 705 00:46:30.650 --> 00:46:44.199 you so much for listening. For the longest time I was asking people to 706 00:46:44.280 --> 00:46:47.630 leave a review of BB growth and apple podcasts, but I realize that was 707 00:46:47.710 --> 00:46:52.230 kind of stupid, because leaving a review is way harder than just leaving a 708 00:46:52.349 --> 00:46:57.110 simple rating. So I'm changing my tune a bit. Instead of asking you 709 00:46:57.230 --> 00:46:59.829 to leave a review, I'm just going to ask you to go to beb 710 00:46:59.909 --> 00:47:04.619 growth and apple podcasts, scroll down until you see the ratings and reviews section 711 00:47:04.980 --> 00:47:07.139 and just tap the number of stars you want to give us. No review 712 00:47:07.260 --> 00:47:12.340 necessary, super easy and I promise it will help us out a ton. 713 00:47:12.900 --> 00:47:15.170 If you want to copy on my book content base networking to shoot me a 714 00:47:15.289 --> 00:47:19.570 text after you leave the rating and I'll send one your way. Text me 715 00:47:19.730 --> 00:47:22.449 at four hundred seven for and I know three hundred and three two eight