Transcript
WEBVTT
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This is a powerful way to grow
fans of a business. Create a youtube
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channel and do videos that drive people
into your business and then use services like
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bomb bomb to communicate to people.
We all want to turn our customers into
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fans, but we can also create
fans and turn them into customers. Our
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guest here on the CX series of
the BDB growth show wrote the book on
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how to do it. Our guest
is David Merriman Scott. The book is
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fanocracy and it's one of more than
ten best selling books that he's authored.
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Themes here in this conversation include human
connection, giving things away for free,
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truly free getting facetoface, pursuing personal
passion, taking a cautionary approach to being
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to day to obsessed and more.
My name is Ethan Beaut I host this
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cx series and I'm also chief evangelist
at bombomb. Enjoy a look at fanocracy
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with David Merman Scott. Our deep
need for human connection, the contagiousness of
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passion, a healthy blend of art
and science, the dehumanizing effects of automation
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and data obsession, a need to
relinquish control over your product in your brand
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and turn it over to your fans, these things are important to me.
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They're important to customer experience and their
foundational to the work of today's guest.
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He's a keynote speaker, Marketing Strategist, on Entrepreneur, start up advisor VC,
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partner in the best selling author of
eleven books, including classics like the
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new rules of marketing at PR which
is in its sixth edition, closing in
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on half a million copies sold and
printed in dozens of languages. A Smart
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Passion Project Marketing Lessons from the grateful
dead, with hub spot CEO Brian Halligan
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and his latest book, which I
highly recommend, Fan accracy, turning fans
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into customers and customers into fans.
David Meerman Scott, welcome to the customer
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experience podcast. Thank you, Ethan. I've done over a hundred podcasts in
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the last twelve months and that was
by far the best introduction, so I
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appreciate that. That is really kind. I just I'm really happy to have
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you here. I love your work. I've read several of your books and
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and this latest one, Fan accracy, is just it's fun to read,
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it's easy to read and I really
think it taps into this is obviously the
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theme of new rules and and real
time marketing and PR as well. It
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just really taps into the state of
affairs with a level of clarity that you
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don't find often rights. It's a
blend of theory and tactics and really tapped
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into the moment, I feel.
Thank you. Thank you very much for
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saying that, because that's actually exactly
what I wanted to do and what I
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have been able to do in the
past, and I think that now that
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we're starting a new decade, the
decade of the S, I think we're
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in a new moment. The promise
of Social Media Idia has always been,
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you know, unicorns and rainbows and
communicating with people and everyone loves one another,
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but that's not the reality. Today. The reality is a can be
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a very dark and cold place for
many people. There's polarization everywhere. The
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social networks themselves, used to be
optimized for communicating with your friends, are
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now optimized for profit, and then
you've got the the whole political world on
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social networks, which is, you
know, just a dangerous zone for everybody
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involved. So I wanted to look
at what's next and to me, true
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human connection. I mean it's not
that, it's not that it's new.
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We've always had it. It's always
been an important part of customer experience,
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but true human connection is what I
think will be driving success in the S.
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I completely agree, and you use
language around it that I use in
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describing some of the work that we
do, which is is pendulum swing back
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away from a lot of the stuff
that's come up and some of the stuff
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you refer to. So I'm going
to ask you to find customer experience,
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but prior to that I'm going to
ask a more personal question just to warm
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it up, and I'm going to
ask you a little bit about parenting.
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So congratulations to you and your wife, because your daughter, Riicho, completed
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a neuroscience degree at Columbia. She's
working on her medical degree at Boston University
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School of Medicine. She's an accomplished
writer and she coauthored fan accuracy with you.
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So you know, based on the
Research Infan accuracy, you point to
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fandom starting in adolescence. And so
before for we get going on customer experience
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and Fan Accracy, I'd love to
for you to talk briefly about your journey
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as a parent helping your daughter discover, explore and kind of live out these
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passions, because it seems like you've
done a very good job. Thank you
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for that. And she's a better
writer than me too, as you as
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you know because you read the book. We we originally, and you don't
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know this part, we originally wanted
to create one voice. So we were
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coauthors and we created a unified voice
that brought us together. It just wasn't
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working. It was too generic.
So we ended up writing individual chapters.
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I wrote about half, she wrote
about half, and we let our own
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voices shine through and we actually say, you know, Chapter Three by David,
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Chapter Four by Rico, and it
worked out great because her voice shines
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through in that way. And being
a millennial, mixed race woman, neuroscientist
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who loves Harry Potter is really different
than being a middle aged white guy who
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loves live music, especially the grateful
dead. So we were able to really
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have different perspectives. But you know, we only have one child, my
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wife and I, and we were
focused from the very beginning and treating always
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having her with us. We only
had a babysitter once one time in our
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entire lives, when she was young, we decide to go to a Madonna
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concert and we had a babysitter,
but otherwise us. We took her everywhere,
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everywhere, you know it. And
as she was three years old,
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she went to the restaurant, she
was four years old, she went to
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the play, because we exposed her
to many different things and then let her
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make decisions as soon as she was
able. So as soon as she was
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able to choose which restaurant to go
to, Susie, she was able to
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choose what play to go to,
choose what movie to see, what book
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to read. That those were her
decisions and she made choices that were right
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for her and we never second guess
those choices. And if she would do
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something a little bit odd and get
into a little bit of trouble with that
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was her choice and then she had
to dial back from it. So so
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she's really doing some wonderful things in
her career. She's going to be graduating
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from medical school and May and then
we'll be embarking on her residency program and
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emergency medicine and doing so as a
Wall Street Journal best selling author. So
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that's kind of awesome, so cool. That's so great. Congratulations to all
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three of you. So let's move
into customer experience. When I say that,
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what does it mean to you?
So I think of customer experiences,
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everything that sort of outside of the
product and service itself. And so how
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does the organization treat you as a
person? What are the intangibles that go
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along with the delivery of that product
or service? You know, what are
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the what are the the overall ways
that an organization engages with you as a
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customer, when you're a customer,
but also as you're evaluating a particular productors
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service and and in fact, just
before we get on the phone, I
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had an opportunity to contact the Wall
Street Journal because I wanted to cancel my
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digital subscription. And you know,
when you cancel a product, that's customer
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experience and I'm I'm happy to say
they did a good job with my cancelation.
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They did try to keep me,
but they weren't obnoxious about it.
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Yeah, it's a careful balance there, especially at that point of exit.
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And in the fact of the matter
is you might be back one day.
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You know, your situation today might
change. And I told the REP that
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when I was younger I subscribe to
the print publication and I was just trying
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to digital publication. Several decades later
and who knows, me, you're right,
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maybe I'll come back. Yeah,
and so it versus, you know,
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burning you on the way out and
you're like, okay, I'm done.
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Yeah, that's right. So,
for folks that aren't familiar, could
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you give a just a definition of
fan accuracy when you know the subtitle in
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part speaks for itself, but you
just give a little definition to fan accuracy,
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because obviously it'll be part of,
you know, the ongoing conversation here.
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Yeah, sure. So it's when
fans rule and it's an organization that
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puts customers and I had of everything
that it does. It's an organization and
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a feeling of true humanity, a
true human connection. What does that look
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like in practice? So, and
I know that's a huge question because you
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give her so many styles of businesses
and organizations in the book. I mean,
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for folks who are listening, that
sounds awesome, right. You know,
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if you're in an organization you want
to be more human centered in and
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build community and build true fandom,
and you can. But the thing,
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one of the things, many things
I enjoyed about the book is it's just
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a range of examples in there from, you know, car insurance to government
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agencies, BE TO BE BTC.
Everything now batteries, batteries, batteries,
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stir so, batteries. Yeah,
so we went into the book five years
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ago. RACO's twenty six now,
so she was twenty one at the time,
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and we went into this idea of
the fact that she and I are
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both passionate about a few things.
I'm incredibly passionate about live music. I've
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done, I went to spend two
seven hundred and ninety live shows, including
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seventy five grateful dead concerts, and
I've got a grateful dead wall of hand
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fame in my office. I own
a great road case that was used in
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eight hundred fifty concerts by the grateful
dead. So I'm a I'm a dialed
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in Fan and my daughter Raco is
really into Harry Potter, not only as
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she read every books in every movie
multiple times, she wrote an eighty five
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thousand word I'll turn to vent into
the Harry Potter series where DRACO Malfoy is
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a spy for the order of the
Phoenix. put down a fan fiction site.
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It's been downloaded thousands and thousands of
times, comments and on hundreds of
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times. So we entered this project
as fans of the things that we love
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and our thesis was that any organization, any company, any product, service
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idea can build fans. That was
our thesis and we've proven that to be
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absolutely correct. And one of the
my favorite examples of that is haggarty insurance
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and they do automobile insurance and I've
asked thousands of people in my presentations around
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the world, in multiple countries,
how many people love auto insurance, and
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nobody ever raises their hand. It's
a terrible product. Nobody wants to buy
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it. You know, when you
put on your credit card, your right
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that check. It's no fun at
all. And furthermore, no one wants
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to use the product because I hope
you've crashed your car. Right. So
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that the terrible thing. And so
I was talking to the CEO of Haggarty
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Insurance, is name is Mikheil Haggarty's
the entrepreneurial founder and CEO of the of
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the company and he and they do
classic Car Auto Insurance. And he says,
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David, everyone hates my product.
My product sucks. So I can't
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markt the way everybody else does.
I can't become the low cost provider I
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don't want to do that. I
don't want to out and outspend on advertising.
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I can't compete with the Geckos of
the world. So he said we're
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going going to go out and specifically
set out to build fans, and so
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he's developing a human connection with potential
and existing customers. So initially what they
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did was they went to classic car
shows around the North America hundreds of year,
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he and his people and they would
meet with people who love classic cars.
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So they're taking existing fans of classic
cars and then connecting with those people
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as a like minded part of that
tribe of enthusiasts. And then that developed
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some people who then joined their their
company as customers. And then they created
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a drivers club to bring different owners
of classic cars together in a in a
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both a virtual and a physical way. They created valuations reports, so using
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their data for how much they're ensuring
cars for, how much is your car
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worth? And they have now an
incredible amount of data that practically any classic
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car you can get evaluation for.
And all of the end they have a
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youtube channel with over a million subscribers. But all of these things have developed
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a human connection, a true human
connection with with cut potential and existing customers.
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Where the Haggarty is now has a
fandom of their own. They have
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hundreds of thousands of people who are
fans of them, including me, and
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I actually we got a card from
them. It arrived several days ago.
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I've got it right here and it's
my fifteen and anniversary card. I've been
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a customer. Wow, I've been
a customer of Agarty for fifteen years now.
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They enture my one thousand nine hundred
and seventy three Land Rover and they
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sent me an anniversary card thanking me
for their for my business on there.
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And you know, they're being a
customer of their insurance company and Mikhel Haggarty
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told me they would. We're crushing
it. Where now the largest classic car
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insurer and the entire world. We're
going to grow by two hundred thousand new
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customers this year. Everybody loves what
we do and it's all built on fandom.
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It's all built on a human relationship
that develops into people who become fans
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of a company that sells a product
that everybody hates. Love it and it
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really I mean that example is so
good. It speaks to the subtitle the
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book, which is turning fans into
customers and customers into fans. And so
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this idea that by approaching, and
I love the way that you positioned what
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Machel wanted to do there, which
is I want to create fans, and
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it wasn't I want to turn my
customers into fans, it's I want to
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create something that people can be fanatical
about, connect people together and, by
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the way, some of them are
going to become customers and some of the
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customers are going to participate in the
fandom. So it really speaks to that,
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given take and working both sides of
it, you're not just trying to
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take. Typically, when people think
about this, it's take a customer and
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turn them into an advocate or a
fan or whatever you want to call so
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I love this, this idea of
building that in up front. So folks
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that are listening, if you have
not visited Bombombcom podcast, you're missing out
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on video clips of these conversations and
I just got a really nice tour of
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David's grateful dead collection on his wall, as well as that travel box and
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the card from haggerty. So if
you want to see some of the stuff
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that we're talking about, to see
the guests. I'm putting it all up
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in blog posted bombombcom podcast. So, speaking of the grateful dead, I
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feel like this book is kind of
a natural extension of marketing lessons from the
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grateful dead in that, you know, picks up the lessons, it expands
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on them and again, as I
already said, it illustrates the ice some
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of the ideas with a much broader
range of companies, organizations, fandoms,
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things that we can connect to.
What do you say? That's fair?
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Yeah, absolutely, and that book, marketing lessons from the grateful dead,
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came out about a decade ago.
So Brian Halligan, who's the CEO hub
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spot, and I wrote that together
and Build Wall in the NBA Basketball Hall
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of fame or worked the forward to
our book, and so we were exp
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Bryant and I were exploring the ideas
of how did the grateful dead build fans
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and can the ideas about how the
grateful dead built fans be applied to other
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businesses? And the answers yes.
So you're up. You're very perceptive and
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in asking me that, because indeed, having already written one book about this
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idea of growing fans and in that
case very specifically using the techniques of the
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greatful dead did helped me to give
a much broader thought to fandom in general
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and then bring my daughter and Rico, as a very different person of mixed
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race, millennial woman, to figure
out how this can apply to all different
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kinds of people and cultures and ideas
and products and services. And one of
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the things that grateful dead did that
is so was so unique still is so
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unique, is unlike every other band, the grateful dead allowed fans to record
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concerts. So fans could bring in
professional level recording here and they, the
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grateful dead, actually gave them a
special place that they could go to right
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behind the mixing board. They even
had power strips you could plug into.
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I mean it was and you could, you could put your microphones up in
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the air on stands. I mean
they let, they really let you go
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to town and record the shows and
the only rule was that you can't sell
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the resulting recordings, but people could
freely trade. Initially in the early days
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it was cassette tapes and it became
MP three files. You could trade the
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tapes, you could give them away
as long you don't sell them, and
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that then generated an incredible passion for
people who listen to the grateful dead in
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these freely recorded initially cassette tapes and
then MP three files, and then they
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would say, you know what,
this is great, I want to go
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to a grateful dead concert too,
or I want to buy a studio album
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too. And that actually created one
of the most popular touring bands in American
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history. And even now, twenty
five years after Jerry Garcia died, the
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surviving members of the grateful dead are
still touring. Dead and company with John
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Mayer and the Jerry Garcia Roll is
still touring and I'm still going. I
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went in two thousand and nineteen.
I went to seven concerts. Wow,
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and the tickets are expensive. I've
probably spent four or five thousand dollars in
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two thousand and nineteen on the grateful
bed and it all goes back to when
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I was a teenager and I heard
music coming out of my friends stereo system
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and that got me hooked on the
band. And this idea of giving something
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away completely free without any expectation of
anything in return, is one of the
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chapters in fanocracy, and any organization
can do that. So we have an
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a cool example of Dura cell batteries. And what Dura cell does is they
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have a something called the power forward
program where when when there's a natural disaster,
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hurricane, flood, fire, something
like that, and power goes out,
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they have a fleet of trucks that
go to the place where the power
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outage is to give away Free Dura
cell batteries, absolutely no obligation, nothing
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in expectation of anything in return.
They just give away free battery. Is
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when people need them. Now.
What's interesting about this is this is when
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batteries are in the most demand.
They could price gouge, you know,
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people are willing to pay five ten
dollars for a pack of batteries that are
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normally two dollars ninety five cents.
But durass doesn't do that. They just
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give them away for free, and
that good will is something that people remember
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for many years. They tell their
friends, they tell their colleagues. What
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I see, though, are way
too many organizations, especially be to be
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companies, doing the opposite. What
a typical be to be company does is
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they create a white paper or an
ebook or some other piece of content and,
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rather than give it away for free
with no out no expectation of anything
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in return, like the grateful dead
and Dura cell. They slap the requirement
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that you have to give an email
address in order to get that white paper
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or ebook or other piece of online
content. That sets up an adversarial relationship.
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It's not a good way to build
fans, because what you're doing is
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you're saying, oh no, I'm
not going to give you anything unless you
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give me something first. Yeah,
you must get you must give me your
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email address before I'll give you my
white paper, and that's an that's an
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adversarial relationship, it's a it's a
it's a business contract, if you will,
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rather than giving away something for free. So I recommend that people take
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a page out of the grateful dead
playbook or the dursell playbook and make that
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white paper or ebook complete and totally
free, with no registration at all,
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because that's what will allow your content
to spread and that, well, that's
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what will help you to build fans. I love it so UN gate that
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content for starters. Don't price couch
just because you can. Right respect people
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as humans. I really appreciate the
specifically named artists that protect the price integrity
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of tickets to live shows. Like
you named like eight or ten of them
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and it because there's so many bands
and, of course, some of the
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venue owners in. It's all at
this point conglomerated. That are you know,
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you wind up, the tickets go
on sale at ten am. By
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ten O one, it's completely sold
out and you know, two thirds of
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the venue is now marked up at, you know, four hundred percent of
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the original ticket price. And so
I appreciate that you called out folks that
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are intentionally doing the opposite of that
and welcoming people in it at acceptable and
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appropriate prices. And and what that's
all about. It's a different chapter.
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Chapter. We're talking about transparency and
telling the truth. Is that, you
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know, it's a really big part
of customer experience to always tell the truth.
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Isn't anything. I mean, so
many companies hide behind, you know,
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legal ease or they make an excuse
for something that goes wrong or,
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in this example of tickets, they
blame the venue or they blame ticket master
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or the other ticketing systems for for
what's going on. And fans, customers,
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have a horrible experience buying tickets.
You know, you want to go
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to the big concert, you want
to go see whatever band it is,
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and you go to the you go
to the ticketing system at ten am,
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as you said, and all of
a sudden all the tickets are gone.
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But you go onto stubhub and there's
thousands and thousands of tickets of the same
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show that you couldn't get on the
primary market available at a huge markup on
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the secondary market. It's really disconcerting
and it's a horrible, horrible customer experience.
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So what what some bands, the
rolling stones, Jack White and there's
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a bunch of other ones, have
done is they've figured out different ways to
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make it way more transparent and way
more honest and give the true fan an
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opportunity to buy tickets on the primary
market. And it turns out that fans
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don't have a problem with a highly
priced ticket. You know, if you
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have to pay four hundred dollars for
a good seat to the rolling stones,
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fans understand that and you know if
you're willing to pay it, you want
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to pay it to the band,
not to some scalper. So these bands
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have figured out ways to sell directly
to you and if you want to pay,
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that's fine. It's kind of like
when you buy airline seats. You
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know if you want to spend the
big bucks to sit in business class.
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Well, you know you're going to
pay more. If you want to spend
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less money, you can sit in
the back. And the same things true
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of sitting in a rolling stone show. You know want to pay a little
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bit extra or a lot extra,
you can be up front. If you're
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not willing to pay the extra,
you're going to be in the back.
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And so this idea of transparency and
honesty as a really important aspect of fandom
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and a really important aspect of customer
experience is something that we can all work
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on and it's fairly simple. Yeah, I think honesty and transparency, of
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course, are part of the trust
building process. When you have trust establish
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it's when we can be a little
bit more vulnerable with each other, and
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when we can be a little bit
vulnerable with each other is how we build
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real, true human connection, which
kind of see, there's so many places
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I want to go. I just
love all the material, but where I
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want to go next is is around
that human connection, because a lot of
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the work that we do here at
Bombom we make it really easy to record
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and send lightweight videos in place of
faceless digital communication, right nails, text
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messages, social messages and you have
some really cool research in the book about
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facetoface communication, physical proximity, and
it has implications for video to so I
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love you to a drive by on
that proximity layer and how it translates even
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through the screen. No, it's
incredibly important and I believe it's so important
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that bombomb is is just going to
do so well going forward, because what
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we did was, as my daughter
Raycod did a neuroscience to undergraduate neuroscience degree
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at Columbia University and as we were
talking about this idea of fandom, one
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of the things that we really wanted
to do was dig into what's actually going
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on in our brains when we become
a fan of something. What's happening,
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and we wanted to be able to
talk about that in the book and figure
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out whether that leads to any prescriptions, and the answer as it does.
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So we spoke with a number of
different important neuroscientists about what's happening in our
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brains and it turns out that all
of us are hardwired to feel safe and
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comfortable within our own tribe of people, and this goes back, you know,
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tens and tens of thousands of years
because if you're within your tribe,
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you're safe and comfortable. If you're
outside of your tribe, you're vulnerable to
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attack, and we modern humans can't
help the fact that we're still concerned about
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that. And so it turns out
the closer you get to somebody physically,
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the more powerful the shared emotions,
either positive or negative. One neuroscientist named
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Edward t hall actually identified different levels
of proximity. Further than about twelve feet
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away is he called public space,
and in public space we humans know the
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people are further than twelve feet away
from us. We understand that, but
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we don't yet begin to track them
in our subconscious. Once people get within
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about twelve feet. That's called social
space. Inside of twelve feet to about
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four feet, we track the people
that get into our social space. So
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if you walk into a crowded room, you can't help the fact that you're
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you're scanning people within about twelve feet
to find out, is there anybody here
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I know? Is there anybody here
from my tribe? Is there danger here?
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And so this is why when you
walk into a room with your friends,
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you feel great and when you walk
into a crowded elevator you feel nervous.
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You can't help that. That's hardwired
into our brain. And then inside
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of four feet is called personal space. That's like cocktail party distance or when
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close friends are together, maybe over
an intimate meal, that kind of thing.
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Even more powerful connections. So what
this means for us to grow fans
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is, can you figure out ways
to get your customers or potential customers into
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social space or even personal space of
you and your employees? Or, even
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better, can you get your customers
into the social and personal space of other
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customers? So this is why a
physical event, a customer event, you
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know, your client conference, your
sales kick off, these things are really
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important in a world of digital communications, having those physical events are are amazingly
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important and Nice. I speak all
over the world at customer events and many
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of them are lovefests, you know, where you've got a thousands or even
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tens of thousands of people that converge
on a city and it's and it's fans
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of that company getting together. Really
powerful stuff, well worthy investment, even
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if you're losing money on ticket sales. But then some people say, well,
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David, you know we can't do
those physical events or clients are all
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over the world or we run a
virtual business or whatever it is, and
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that's where video services like bomb bomb, as well as things like youtube for
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providing marketing videos, incredibly powerful because
it turns out through something called Mirror neurons,
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which are the part of our brains
that fire when we see or even
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just hear somebody doing something, can
be very applicable when it comes to video,
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because the virtual proximity found on a
video camera is really powerful, and
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I'm going to demonstrate that now.
So here's another clip that might go on
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your your site, that I've got
a lemon in one hand and a slice
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of lemon in another hand. Now, if I take a bite of this
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slice of lemon, wow, it's
really powerful to take a bite of a
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slice of lemon right my eyes closed
and scrunch up. My mouth starts to
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water. It's my mouth puckers up
a little bit. I mean powerful thing
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to bite into a lemon. And
just by seeing this, Ethan, I
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bet you're feeling some lemon to yeah, I full little. I felt a
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little pull in the in the front
of my mouth, as you're like.
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I know it's weird, right,
and even people who are aren't seeing the
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video clip but are here just hearing
me talk about it, are probably tasting
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a little bit of lemon. So
this is the concept of mirror neurons,
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because your brain is firing as if
you took the bite of Lemon yourself.
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Here's where that that up applies to
video. When you watch a video of
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people cropped as if you're in personal
space, so about four feet away,
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looking directly at the camera, people
think they're people. Intellectually know they're just
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on a camera. I'm not actually
in the same room, but your subconscious,
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your mirror neurons, tell you that
you're actually in close physical proximity.
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You're in the personal space of the
person who's on the screen. This is
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precisely why we feel we know movie
stars, even though we've never met a
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that movie star and intellectually we know
they're just an image on a screen,
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we feel you know them. So
this is a powerful way to grow fans
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of a business. Create a youtube
channel and do videos that drive people into
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your business, and then you services
like bomb bomb to communicate to people using
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video, because that's an incredibly powerful
way to build fans by establishing a virtual
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00:31:15.130 --> 00:31:22.640
close proximity to existing and potential customers. I love it that psychological proximity is
403
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such a big deal. Like it's
easy for us to quantify things when we've
404
00:31:25.319 --> 00:31:27.799
done it through surveys and mountains of
anecdotes and things like. I get more
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replies and responses, I get more
clicks through my emails, I convert leads
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at a higher rate, I can
stay in touch more effectively in all these
407
00:31:34.950 --> 00:31:40.549
other, you know, kind of
quantifiable benefits. But this other side of
408
00:31:40.630 --> 00:31:44.029
it we hear all the time,
but it's hard to put a number two
409
00:31:44.069 --> 00:31:45.990
and that one of the most common
things I hear from people that use our
410
00:31:47.109 --> 00:31:51.380
service often is people feel like they
know me before they ever meet me.
411
00:31:51.700 --> 00:31:53.900
And that's exactly what you're talking about. It's a really interesting dynamic and I
412
00:31:53.940 --> 00:32:00.299
get that reply myself and it's rooted
in neuroscience, and that's what's so fascinating
413
00:32:00.380 --> 00:32:02.809
to me about is at this is
real stuff. This is not just like,
414
00:32:04.089 --> 00:32:07.609
you know, marketing materials from bomb
on. This is a real stuff.
415
00:32:07.769 --> 00:32:13.289
You know, it's really rooted in
neuroscience. Some evidence that we've found,
416
00:32:13.329 --> 00:32:19.640
which is so interesting, is that
the average social media post that includes
417
00:32:19.720 --> 00:32:22.000
video crop, if you're looking at
the camera, crops, if it's four
418
00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:27.319
feet away or photographs looking at a
camera as if it's about four feet away.
419
00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:30.630
And by the way, that includes
a Selfie, because your arm is
420
00:32:30.670 --> 00:32:37.430
about four feet long. So if
you're doing a selfie right you're in personal
421
00:32:37.470 --> 00:32:45.299
space with that camera. Those posts, video and photographs included, get way
422
00:32:45.500 --> 00:32:50.660
more social interaction then posts that are
just text or images that are not of
423
00:32:50.819 --> 00:32:55.700
people. So it's all kind of
evidence that this concept around neuroscience of proximity,
424
00:32:55.740 --> 00:33:04.450
virtual proximity, is true. Today's
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425
00:33:04.650 --> 00:33:10.170
industry leading provider of cloud based data
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426
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and Google big cree. Even though
Matillion as a high profiled company, they
427
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needed to increase their organic traffic and
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428
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429
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and conversion rate optimization, leading to
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430
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pages. Matillion saw a two thousand
seven hundred and fifty percent increase in mqls
431
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in just a single quarter. Not
only that, organic conversions hit a hundred
432
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and sixty four percent compared to the
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433
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434
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435
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four lessons completely free. Once again, that's directive consultingcom institute to get for
438
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free lessons. All right, let's
get back to the show. I want
439
00:34:19.559 --> 00:34:22.840
to go into something that was that
that can be that you just kind of
440
00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:25.230
did a drive by on, but
I think it's worth mentioning. I think
441
00:34:25.230 --> 00:34:29.869
a lot of people when we're having
this customer experience conversation, we talked about
442
00:34:29.909 --> 00:34:35.670
the relationship of company to customer or
or employeed a customer. But what what
443
00:34:35.869 --> 00:34:38.340
it is? Running throughout fan accuracy
and in and your one of your last
444
00:34:38.579 --> 00:34:45.260
responses, is it's not just company
to a customer or employeed a customer,
445
00:34:45.659 --> 00:34:50.539
it's customer to customer and it's employee
to employee. And that, and I
446
00:34:50.619 --> 00:34:52.849
thought about that too, is you're
talking about honesty and transparency. It's like,
447
00:34:53.610 --> 00:34:55.730
you know, what kind of company
do you want to work for one
448
00:34:55.769 --> 00:35:00.050
that you can respect because it's honest
and transparent, or or not. So
449
00:35:00.489 --> 00:35:05.170
talk a little bit about this give
and take all the way around. For
450
00:35:05.289 --> 00:35:09.679
like a holistic fan accuracy. It
includes those three stakeholders and more. Yeah,
451
00:35:09.880 --> 00:35:14.719
so one of the things that was
kind of surprising to us is that
452
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:20.199
once we started talking to people over
the last five years about fans, fandom
453
00:35:20.239 --> 00:35:23.710
and and what they're a fan of
and and just the idea of how and
454
00:35:23.789 --> 00:35:30.630
why people become fans, people would
write up, because everybody loves to talk
455
00:35:30.670 --> 00:35:37.219
about the thing they're passionate about.
and IT TURNS OUT THAT PASSION IS INFECTIOUS.
456
00:35:37.099 --> 00:35:43.420
When you're passionate about something, that
passion shines through and the the the
457
00:35:43.579 --> 00:35:47.019
person that you're speaking with, does
not have to share the same passion as
458
00:35:47.059 --> 00:35:52.570
you do, and this is why
sometimes that people who are fans of rival
459
00:35:52.769 --> 00:35:58.849
sports teams can have really good,
strong relationships because they recognize in each other
460
00:35:59.369 --> 00:36:02.650
that even though I love the Red
Sox and you love the Yankees, for
461
00:36:02.849 --> 00:36:07.599
example, you're both passionate about baseball
and you can both understand that passion.
462
00:36:08.280 --> 00:36:15.079
And so this becomes a really important
concept around fanocracy, that passion is infectious.
463
00:36:15.079 --> 00:36:20.789
It leads to how do you hire
the right people? People who are
464
00:36:20.789 --> 00:36:25.030
already have passion in their life for
something are much more likely to be passionate
465
00:36:25.070 --> 00:36:30.309
about you and your brand and your
business and share that passion with customers.
466
00:36:30.789 --> 00:36:37.739
When you bring customers together who are
passionate about your brand, they share the
467
00:36:37.820 --> 00:36:40.019
fact that they're passionate about what you
do, about your company, about what
468
00:36:40.179 --> 00:36:45.820
you do, and that is something
that then that passion goes both ways,
469
00:36:46.099 --> 00:36:51.969
and so these things are all really, really important and I think, very
470
00:36:52.130 --> 00:36:57.849
often overlooked. Another thing that's overlooked, which we found to be really cool,
471
00:36:58.250 --> 00:37:04.760
is that people who share their private
passions in their professional life generate way
472
00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:08.280
more engagement than those who don't.
And we found a dentist. His name
473
00:37:08.440 --> 00:37:14.519
is Dr John Rashi, and Dr
Murrashi came to me about two years ago
474
00:37:14.639 --> 00:37:17.789
and said, David, I'm a
dentist in southern California. There's tens of
475
00:37:17.949 --> 00:37:22.309
thousands of dentists in southern California.
You know, how can I stand out
476
00:37:22.469 --> 00:37:27.070
when we all have the same websites? We all show pictures of dirty,
477
00:37:27.269 --> 00:37:30.579
crooked teeth turning into straight white teeth? How can I stand out and we
478
00:37:30.699 --> 00:37:36.300
just started to talk about what we're
passionate about, and Dr Murrashi is passionate
479
00:37:36.420 --> 00:37:42.019
about skateboarding. He's also passionate about
bow ties, and I said, well,
480
00:37:42.059 --> 00:37:45.449
that's it. Mean, let's just
like focus on that. Dr Murash
481
00:37:45.489 --> 00:37:49.769
he's so he did. He he
sort of doubled down on this idea of
482
00:37:49.889 --> 00:37:54.250
skateboarding and and bow ties. So
he normally wears bow ties and he's got
483
00:37:54.489 --> 00:37:59.239
his white, like Kurtle lap coat
thing, dentist coat on. He's got
484
00:37:59.679 --> 00:38:04.719
skateboards in his office hanging on the
walls. He skateboards from one examination room
485
00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:07.079
to another. His instagram, which, by the way, has more than
486
00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:13.710
thirteen thousand followers, a dentist with
more than thirteen thousand followers, he's got
487
00:38:13.750 --> 00:38:19.869
a whole bunch of photographs and even
some video of him skateboarding. Sometimes he's
488
00:38:19.949 --> 00:38:24.510
skateboarding wearing a bow tie. And
what he told me was just this idea
489
00:38:24.590 --> 00:38:30.619
of showcading, showcasing what he's passionate
about in his personal life. SKATEBOARDING has
490
00:38:30.820 --> 00:38:35.980
nothing to do with dentistry, but
but what a cool customer experience to say
491
00:38:36.780 --> 00:38:42.769
my dentist is a great skateboarder.
My dentist loves to Skateboard and he told
492
00:38:42.849 --> 00:38:50.730
me that he's grown his business by
thirty percent a year just by talking about
493
00:38:50.809 --> 00:38:53.530
the fact that he's into skateboarding and
showing that when he's in his office and
494
00:38:53.889 --> 00:38:59.239
and having the instagram focus on skateboarding. There's so much good stuff going on
495
00:38:59.480 --> 00:39:02.400
there and I think vulnerability is part
of it. This idea that this dentist
496
00:39:02.559 --> 00:39:07.239
who you know to three decades ago
is supposed to act as if I'm supposed
497
00:39:07.239 --> 00:39:10.510
to act as if I'm this,
you know, all put together dentist that
498
00:39:10.829 --> 00:39:14.789
conforms to whatever the image of a
dentist is. In this idea of like
499
00:39:15.190 --> 00:39:19.030
this comfort of being yourself, is
fundamentally attractive to other people. And again,
500
00:39:19.030 --> 00:39:21.789
to your point, it doesn't matter
if I love skateboarding. I love
501
00:39:21.869 --> 00:39:24.099
the fact that he loves what he
loves and he wears it on his sleeve
502
00:39:24.179 --> 00:39:29.059
and he is who he is going
exactly. And so you have a choice.
503
00:39:29.780 --> 00:39:34.539
What's behind you in the in the
office? Is it all of your
504
00:39:34.619 --> 00:39:38.369
wonderful dental degrees? That's exactly what
every other dentist does, or is it
505
00:39:38.489 --> 00:39:43.889
a couple of skateboards or pictures of
you skateboarding? I mean to me.
506
00:39:44.090 --> 00:39:46.289
The difference is clear and to me
I know what I would sign up for.
507
00:39:46.730 --> 00:39:50.849
As long as he's a good dentist. I'd much sure other have the
508
00:39:50.849 --> 00:39:54.960
skateboarder than the the button down.
All business. I went to Harvard.
509
00:39:55.000 --> 00:40:00.679
Guy Totally. You've been super generous
with your time. I want to ask
510
00:40:00.760 --> 00:40:02.039
you, or at least get your
response to, a few quotes from the
511
00:40:02.039 --> 00:40:06.400
book that are all kind of around
a theme before we get to our standard
512
00:40:06.400 --> 00:40:08.070
closes. That is that? Okay? Here it sounds good. Okay,
513
00:40:08.110 --> 00:40:13.590
cool. So there's an underlying theme
in the book we've it's been kind of
514
00:40:13.630 --> 00:40:16.710
at the tip of the conversation as
we've gone and I've been thinking about it
515
00:40:16.710 --> 00:40:22.300
a lot, which is all of
this. Is just how we make people
516
00:40:22.340 --> 00:40:24.059
feel like. That's what this is
all about. So I want to read
517
00:40:24.059 --> 00:40:28.460
a few quotes and just get your
get your reaction to it. A fandom
518
00:40:28.500 --> 00:40:32.659
business is human centered instead of data
obsessed. A number can be a ceiling
519
00:40:34.260 --> 00:40:37.489
if a person is too focused on
it and it alone. We see many
520
00:40:37.570 --> 00:40:43.889
consumers becoming more and more distant from
brands that rely entirely on automated processes.
521
00:40:44.170 --> 00:40:49.889
And what I'm getting here is like
the data obsession focus on numbers, automation
522
00:40:49.929 --> 00:40:54.760
versus human centered and focusing on the
process, not just the outcome. Like
523
00:40:55.119 --> 00:40:58.760
what is the role of feeling in
all of this to you, and and
524
00:40:58.920 --> 00:41:01.599
and what kind of pushback have you
gotten about quantification of these things that are
525
00:41:01.639 --> 00:41:07.989
difficult to quantify? Yeah, good, good series of questions. So I
526
00:41:07.110 --> 00:41:13.230
think you're right that this is very
much the human connection. It is very
527
00:41:13.309 --> 00:41:16.869
much a feeling. I mean,
you know your theme and what this podcast
528
00:41:17.030 --> 00:41:23.300
is about. It's a customer experience. And that's not to say that you
529
00:41:23.380 --> 00:41:29.860
don't use data, that you don't
use technology. You certainly can. You
530
00:41:29.980 --> 00:41:35.369
may remember one of the stories in
the book that I absolutely love is a
531
00:41:35.530 --> 00:41:42.849
company called me UNDIS and they're an
underwear subscription company. So it's completely data
532
00:41:42.889 --> 00:41:50.679
driven in the sense that they sell
underwear and you buy a subscript option,
533
00:41:50.760 --> 00:41:53.960
so you get a new pair of
underwear every month, and so it's highly
534
00:41:54.119 --> 00:41:58.920
data driven in that once you subscribe, you know they got to take your
535
00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:01.630
credit card. Every month they have
to send you a link to the available
536
00:42:02.309 --> 00:42:07.469
underwear that you can choose for that
particular month. They know your size,
537
00:42:07.670 --> 00:42:10.590
they know which style you like,
whether it's boxes or briefs or whatever it
538
00:42:10.710 --> 00:42:15.860
is, and so very, very, very data driven on the back end.
539
00:42:15.260 --> 00:42:22.460
But that's just to drive the humanity, because they love sharing customer stories,
540
00:42:22.500 --> 00:42:28.179
they love sharing photos of their customers
in their underwear. They have video
541
00:42:28.300 --> 00:42:31.809
of their customers in their underwear and
they have just a fun vibe. You
542
00:42:31.929 --> 00:42:37.969
know, their tagline is ten million
happy butts and going strong. I mean
543
00:42:37.050 --> 00:42:43.730
that's just fun and human and interesting. So I don't think it's an either
544
00:42:43.730 --> 00:42:47.440
or, but I do think that
so many companies are only obsessed with numbers
545
00:42:47.800 --> 00:42:52.880
and not obsessed with the humanity of
it. And I think in our world
546
00:42:52.920 --> 00:42:58.559
where there's so much more data,
I mean you log into Netflix or whatever
547
00:42:58.670 --> 00:43:05.710
video service you use and it's so
data driven that you don't see films outside
548
00:43:05.750 --> 00:43:08.869
of the ones that are similar to
what you've seen in the past. I
549
00:43:09.030 --> 00:43:14.139
think that's wrong. I think that, yes, you should be able to
550
00:43:14.260 --> 00:43:17.179
see films similar to what you have, but that should be a choice.
551
00:43:19.059 --> 00:43:22.980
It shouldn't be that you're that's the
default that you can't get away from.
552
00:43:22.579 --> 00:43:30.610
You know, I I watched a
number of documentaries, especially some music documentaries,
553
00:43:30.650 --> 00:43:34.050
when I first subscribe to Netflix.
I can't get away from them.
554
00:43:34.170 --> 00:43:37.489
Now every time I log in a
Netflix they're showing me the same damn thing.
555
00:43:38.329 --> 00:43:44.280
And so, yeah, algorithms are
important, but they can't be the
556
00:43:44.440 --> 00:43:50.559
soul driver of a how an organization
communicates with customers. Great response. We
557
00:43:50.679 --> 00:43:53.079
will wind down on that. I
appreciate your time so much. It's been
558
00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:57.110
it's been great. It's absolute pleasure
for me. I hope you've enjoyed yourself
559
00:43:57.150 --> 00:44:00.230
and I know people of course,
get tons of value out of out of
560
00:44:00.269 --> 00:44:02.150
the conversation. I know they will
get value out of Fan accracy to when
561
00:44:02.190 --> 00:44:06.070
they pick it up and read it. I assume there's an audiobook as well.
562
00:44:06.469 --> 00:44:08.309
Yeah, and Raco and I read
the Audio Book Ourselves, and so
563
00:44:08.789 --> 00:44:12.860
there's audio book and Ebook Format,
if you're into that, and then good
564
00:44:12.900 --> 00:44:16.340
old fashioned hardcover. Love it and
the book. The book premiered as a
565
00:44:16.380 --> 00:44:19.900
Wells's re journal best seller, so
it's done really well. We really happy
566
00:44:19.900 --> 00:44:22.619
about that. Yeah, well deserved. Before I let you go, couple
567
00:44:22.699 --> 00:44:25.449
things. I would love to give
you the chance to think or mentioned someone
568
00:44:25.489 --> 00:44:30.210
who's had a positive impact on your
life or your career and to give a
569
00:44:30.250 --> 00:44:34.610
shout out to a company that maybe
you haven't mentioned already the really appreciate for
570
00:44:34.650 --> 00:44:38.679
the experience they deliver for you as
a customer. Sure so. Tony Robins
571
00:44:38.800 --> 00:44:44.159
wrote the forward to fan accuracy.
Tony's my friend. I've spoken at Tony
572
00:44:44.199 --> 00:44:50.400
Robins business mastery events for six years
now, between two and four events a
573
00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:57.150
year around the world, and you
know he's a giant among public speakers and
574
00:44:57.949 --> 00:45:01.030
the fact that he has me for
two hours on his stage several times a
575
00:45:01.070 --> 00:45:06.630
year, that he was willing to
write the forward to my book is He's
576
00:45:06.670 --> 00:45:10.539
a true mentor and friend and I
appreciate that. A company I totally admire
577
00:45:10.659 --> 00:45:16.699
that has a fabulous customer experience is
called Grain surfboards. They make wooden surfboards
578
00:45:16.940 --> 00:45:21.179
and for those of you who are
looking on video, there is my grain
579
00:45:21.260 --> 00:45:24.849
surfboard, but I make I made
that surfboard. So what's cool about the
580
00:45:24.929 --> 00:45:30.730
customer experience there is you can either
buy a wooden surfboard that they make in
581
00:45:30.730 --> 00:45:36.280
their factory or you can go and
make the wooden surfboard in their factory with
582
00:45:36.440 --> 00:45:40.000
them yourself. It takes four days. It's amazing and I mean who does
583
00:45:40.199 --> 00:45:44.639
that? WHO allows you into their
factory to let you make their product with
584
00:45:44.840 --> 00:45:47.239
them and I just love them for
it. It's called Grain surfboards are in
585
00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:52.750
York Maine. So you can buy
a wonderful wooden surfboard, sustainable for the
586
00:45:52.829 --> 00:45:55.469
environment, beautiful, or you could
even make one yourself. Yeah, I
587
00:45:55.550 --> 00:45:59.190
love it's great story in the book
is really fun to read. I love
588
00:45:59.269 --> 00:46:01.510
the reaction of the folks at grain
that we're like yeah, we just we
589
00:46:01.630 --> 00:46:05.139
just get so fired up when it
comes time to have one of these.
590
00:46:05.179 --> 00:46:07.900
You know, customers come in and
make boards with us. Thing just again.
591
00:46:07.940 --> 00:46:10.780
It just speaks to the fanaccracy and
in as far as community goes,
592
00:46:10.820 --> 00:46:14.300
of course, Tony Robbins, he
said, is a giant on I want
593
00:46:14.300 --> 00:46:15.619
to give a couple things, which
is not something that I always do on
594
00:46:15.659 --> 00:46:20.730
the show, but but your appearance
here with me, and thank you again
595
00:46:20.809 --> 00:46:24.130
so much for your time, was
triggered in part by a previous podcast guest,
596
00:46:24.130 --> 00:46:28.090
Samantha Stone, who is kind enough
to send me as a copy of
597
00:46:28.289 --> 00:46:31.449
Fan accuracy signed by both you and
your daughter and Hanley and Joseph Jaffe,
598
00:46:31.610 --> 00:46:36.880
previous podcast guests here on the customer
experience podcast, whose work, like your
599
00:46:36.920 --> 00:46:39.599
own, David, was very,
very influential with me. At a very
600
00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:44.920
important time in my life and career. And and a guy named Jakenzo who
601
00:46:45.079 --> 00:46:51.230
said that visionaries don't see the future, they see the present much more clearly,
602
00:46:51.469 --> 00:46:53.309
and that's how I think of your
work, David. If Very God
603
00:46:53.349 --> 00:46:55.989
of very kind of you to say
so. That's a cool quote too.
604
00:46:57.269 --> 00:47:00.750
Yeah, it is a's in a
sharp dude. If people want to follow
605
00:47:00.750 --> 00:47:04.019
up, we already mentioned the book
and the Digital Book in the Audiobook,
606
00:47:04.059 --> 00:47:06.619
but if people want to connect with
you some other way, where would you
607
00:47:06.619 --> 00:47:14.059
send them? So we've got a
really well done site at wwwofacacycom. There's
608
00:47:14.139 --> 00:47:20.570
videos, there's infographics that you can
download, images, all sorts of cool
609
00:47:20.650 --> 00:47:24.969
stuff there to give you all all
kinds of information about fan accuracy. On
610
00:47:25.449 --> 00:47:30.320
on twitter and Instagram, I am
DM Scott. That's D M Scott,
611
00:47:30.480 --> 00:47:32.599
and if you want to connect with
me on Linkedin, please do awesome.
612
00:47:34.039 --> 00:47:36.800
Thank you so much and and David. By the way, for listeners,
613
00:47:36.840 --> 00:47:40.559
David of course, was kind enough
to move his camera around frequently throughout the
614
00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:45.429
episode and I will find all of
those moments and several others and they'll be
615
00:47:45.469 --> 00:47:49.269
available at bombombcom slash podcast, or
you can see video clips and get wound
616
00:47:49.269 --> 00:47:52.030
ups on these episodes. Thank you
so much for your time, David,
617
00:47:52.070 --> 00:47:55.989
and thank you so much for listening. Thanks, Evan. I really appreciate
618
00:47:57.150 --> 00:48:01.780
this human centered approach to building our
businesses, this human connection and with that
619
00:48:01.900 --> 00:48:07.500
grain surfboard story, the Co creation
so many good ideas behind fan accuracy and
620
00:48:07.699 --> 00:48:12.619
in that conversation we talked about several
things that are worth looking at. If
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00:48:12.659 --> 00:48:17.090
you want to see some of the
video from this episode, visit bombombcom slash
622
00:48:17.250 --> 00:48:24.769
podcast. That's bomb bombcomas podcast.
We do short write ups of every episode.
623
00:48:24.849 --> 00:48:30.000
We include video clips, full audio
and so much more. Again,
624
00:48:30.039 --> 00:48:34.679
my name is Ethan but chief evangelist
at bombomb and you can learn more about
625
00:48:34.800 --> 00:48:40.119
each of these episodes at Bombombcom podcast. Thanks again for listening to the CX
626
00:48:40.199 --> 00:48:47.670
series here on be tob growth.
I hate it when podcasts incessantly ask their
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listeners for reviews, but I get
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enormously helpful when you're trying to grow
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decided to do. If you leave
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podcasts and email me a screenshot of
the review to James At sweetfish Mediacom,
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I'll send you a signed copy of
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How to instantly connect with anyone you
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you get a free book. We
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