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The neuroscience behind trust and the power
of human faces too, critical themes on
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this episode of the CX series on
BB growth. Our guest is customer success
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expert Ed powers, and this conversation
is the single most downloaded episode of the
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customer experience podcast. My name is
Ethan Beut. I host the CX series
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here on the show and I've known
ED powers for years. He's the first
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guest I ever hosted and he provides
great insight on how to build connection with
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our customers. Here we go.
Hey, thanks so much for playing this
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episode. Glad you're listening in.
I'm really glad that you're here and I'm
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glad to have our guests this week, ed powers, who I know as
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a longtime consultant into software companies,
into the SASS space around how to reduce
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term but specifically, among other things, he's got an amazing framework for building
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real human relationships at scale. Ed, welcome to the customer experience podcast,
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but I see it's been great to
be with you. That's my background with
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you, but you've got a certainly
a more nuanced and interesting background that I
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shared there. Can you just let
folks know who you are, where you're
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coming from and what you're up to. Sure even well, I've been in
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business about thirty years or so.
I have spent some time in sales and
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marketing. I was an operations and
quality of run organizations and startups, big
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companies, and I spent about fifteen
years or so in consulting and these days
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I'm back in an operations role at
a company and South Denver called and telesecure,
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and we're in they managed it security
business. So that's a little bit
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about me. And Right now,
we were talking before, I'm in the
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midst of writing a book, so
that's been kind of a hobby of mine.
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That's awesome. Is it's the theme
of the book similar to kind of
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where we're going to take this conversation
today. Yeah, absolutely. The book
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is really about the customer experience and
applying neuroscience to that. So how do
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you make your customer experience brain friendly
and how does that warm up your interactions
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and how does that drive customer attention
and loyalty? Cool, I'm sure trust.
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You know, when we when we
talk about building relationships at scale and
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neuroscience and brain friendly, I'm sure
trust is the essence of this. Can
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you just paint a broad picture about
where we're going to go over the next
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fifteen to twenty minutes. Yeah,
trust is, you know, I'm sure
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everybody's heard the addage. You know, people do business with people they know,
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like and trust, and you know
it's intuitively obvious that that's the case.
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But there's also some interesting empirical data
that also supports that. There've been
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some studies among the the loyalty researchers
that really show when customers are buying something,
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a product or service, and there's
a risk associated with that, they
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tend to rely much more strongly on
their sense of trust. And Trust is
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kind of the glue in our social
environment, whether it's, you know,
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an intimate person that we have in
our lives or business associates or friends,
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you know you need to trust them. So I we'll talk a lot about
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about that whole idea. Sure.
So trust is one of those words,
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kind of like customer experience is where
I say it and you know what it
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means, but you might have a
different understanding or definition for it in somebody
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else. How do you in the
in the context of this conversation, how
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do you define trust, like what
are its key components? Yeah, and
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and I really like the definition that
of trust being a willingness to accept vulnerability
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or risk when you work with someone. So it's it's your comfort level right
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that that you can be vulnerable,
you can be your true self, you
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can say something without repercussions. You're
not going to be judged. You know
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so. So trust is really this
the sense of comfort, safety and security
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working with someone else. And the
psychologist say that it really breaks down into
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three major components. Its ability,
benevolence and integrity. And ability is competency,
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you know, consistency and behavior.
Benevolence is caring for someone, that
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there's there's genuine commitment to share goals. And Integrity is, you know,
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doing the right thing, even though
sometimes it can be the hard thing.
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So the the example that I use, as you know, think of your
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doctor, right, and so is
do you trust your doctor? Well,
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let's let's run the litmus test.
Is She a good healer? Does she
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genuinely care about you as a person, not just a patient? And you
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know, if you have to have
a difficult conversation, is she going to
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shoot straight with you? And if
the answers yes and all of those conditions,
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you probably trust your doctor. Right, that's a great example and I
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love those three elements that you broke
out there again. Ability, benevolence and
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integrity does just sound like the words
I would associate with someone I like.
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Yeah, and apparently trust. And
so you know, when these things are
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this is a process. They're right. Like I need to sense the benevolence
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in you, even if I don't
assign those words in my mind to you
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and my experience with you. And
that's just one of the three components.
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How do we come to trust each
other? How do we build this in
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people's minds through experience? Yeah,
it's a great question and there's been some
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my interesting neuroscience on that. You
know, we talked about earning someone's trust,
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right. Well, we actually learn
about trust. Trust as a learning
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process and, like you say,
it comes through the experience. There's a
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neuroscientist by the name of Luke Chang
who did an interesting experiment using something called
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the trust game, and the trust
game is a is an economic experiment that
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has been around for a number of
years and it's like an investment game.
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So you work with other players in
this game and you invest money with these
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other players and it pays a big
return, but some players will return that
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money back to you and take your
money. They invest. You'll see what
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they get back. Some of them
will share it back and then other ones
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will keep it for themselves. Right. So what they do is they that
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you play this game over and over
again and you learn which which partner is
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trustworthy and which one is not,
and the proxy for that is the amount
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of money you invest with that person. So in that experiment, what they
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do is they ring the game,
of course, and you know they have
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some players that are and will return
the money eighty percent of the time and
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others that or return only twenty percent
of the time. And through the course
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of playing the game you kind of
learn, well, this person I can
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trust, that person I can trust, and you can actually see that it
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actually when you measure the amount of
money that's invested. Lo and behold,
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it's a reinforcement learning is that through
those experiences you learn who can be trusted
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and who can't. And one thing
that that Chang also studied, which is
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really interesting. He has a mathematical
model that shows is very predictable. And
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there's two elements to this. There's
there's what you learn over time and there's
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what you learn initially. What do
you believe about another person and which you
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believe tends to set the stage for
how you behave throughout that experience with another
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person. It's really interesting. So
loop Chang, if you want to look
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him up, Sejanng. So if
one component is where we start in the
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other component is what we learn through
experience, what is that? Where do
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we get our initial beliefs about trust? I have to assume that varies across
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the population to some people probably grow
up in much more trusting environments. I'm
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sure some of it is deeply instinctual
and part of the human experience we're in
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general. We'd our initial baseline starting
points. You know, for example,
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I think about tipping when I'm at
a restaurant. I started twenty percent.
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If someone does an amazing job,
to go up to twenty five or even
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thirty percent, and if it's terrible
they might go down to fifteen percent.
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I'm really not the ten percent guy. So I have a baseline and things
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get better or worse, and I
feel like that's what you're talking about.
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Her's people have some kind of an
initial belief, for a baseline for how
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trusting they are. Of other people. Where does that come from? Yeah,
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like you say, law, some
of it is environmental and there are
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individual differences and some people genuinely are
more trusting and there's actually there's an age
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dependency as well as the older you
get, the more trusting you are,
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which is but but generally we use, you know, the brand likes a
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lot of shortcuts, you and it
tends to use what other information, what
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whatever information is available at the time
to make these initial assessments. But we
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always do it automatically. We do
it so consciously. If you were to
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know somebody you know, like you
know the mafia, is always this person's
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is a friend of ours or is
a friend of mine, and because of
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the association you know from someone else, you you said expectations about that other
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person based upon what you hear from
someone that you trust. So that's one
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way. But in this case there
was something really interesting, and researchers have
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known this for quite some time,
is that just showing someone a face is
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enough to set a trust expectation about
someone else. So just showing a face
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as it is important. And what
they found was that just by showing a
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face, Smiley face or an angry
face. That alters people's behavior. There
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it forms an initial trust belief.
So it doesn't take very much at all
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to to get someone to set like
a little condition in the brain and the
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once they have that little anker,
then they then they work with that anchor,
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just like in your tipping example.
Hey, everybody, Logan the sweetish
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here. If you've been listening to
the show for a while, you know
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we're big proponents of putting out original, organic content on Linke did, but
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one thing that's always been a struggle
for a team like ours is to easily
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track the reach of that linkedin content. That's why I was really excited when
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I heard about shield the other day
from a connection on you guessed it linked
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in. Since our team started using
shield, I've loved how it's let us
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easily track and analyze the performance of
our linkedin content without having to manually log
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it ourselves. It automatically creates reports
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to see things like what content has
been performing the best and what days of
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the week are we getting the most
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highly suggest you guys check out this
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the number to be growth. All one
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word. All right, let's get
back to the show. Obviously, then,
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this is a deep part of the
human experience. I have to imagine
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that our ability to judge based on
faces and have impressions based on basis is
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part of our deep survival instinct,
or something like that. How did what
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was that? What are the dynamics
behind access to the human face and and
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all the things that it triggers in
us? Yeah, you know, it's
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interesting because one of the first skills
we ever learned as an infant, right
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before we can talk, we can
recognize faces, and so we're hard word
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for that and may have shown that
in less than a hundred milliseconds, which
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is about three times faster you can
than you can blink your eye. You
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process a face and what you do
is you look at the eyes and the
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mouth and what you're really looking for
is their emotional state. We attribute an
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expression to an emotional state, and
the eyes and the mouth are very descriptive
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for us and we can instantly tell
is this person, this new person that
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I'm seeing for the first time?
Is this a friend or foe? Who
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is this person going to do me
good or they're going to do me harm?
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And that we have wiring in our
brain that goes to our our Migdalo,
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which is our our fear detector,
and they're also imprints on our memories.
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So we immediately make this association by
looking at the face when we say
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I can trust that person. That
person looks a little shaky to me,
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and we do it so consciously,
automatically whenever we see a face, but
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instantly, Yep, yeah, that's
you. You gave me new language and
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new understanding for something I've known and
even taught before, which is that human
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emotion expression through the face is both
universal in a night we all do it
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from birth. That's the innate part, and we all do it across history,
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across cultures, across the side as
we all do it the same way.
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So even if someone is sitting with
a translator and the translator hasn't hasn't
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translated the person's words to you from
another language. You still have a sense
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of you know, are they angry? Are they clear, or they excited?
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Are they happy, etc. So
we do a lot of work in
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video at bombomb here, and so
something a lot of people run into,
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because obviously the implication what you're saying
is in our businesses, sharing our faces
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and a variety of ways more often
it's going to be a benefit to us.
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But a lot of people get hung
up on I got a face for
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radio kind of stuff. Talk about
that, right. So for someone who
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lacks the confidence to appear more often, whether in video or whether in photos
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or whatever, live video chats or
video emails or whatever, talk about that
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dynamic is did is any face work? Yeah, actually, any face does
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work, and it's funny. They
can even they've done experiments where they're just
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three dots, right, there's the
two dots where the eyes are, the
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little doubt for the mouth, and
we recognize that kind of face. That's
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how hard Worre we are, you
know, we ever, when you see
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the front grill on a car,
you see a face or you see you
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know, our rock formation or clouds, you see a face. So we
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we're hyper sensitive to look to interpret
anything that looks like a face. But
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in terms of trust, it's really
the expression and not not the nature of
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the face itself, unless you're dating, of course. Now, if you're
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dating, there is some science that
shows people like symmetry in the face and
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people will fixate on that and whatever. But if that's not true goal,
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you just need to look into the
camera. You know, I straight ahead
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and smile and that's really all that's
necessary to create a sense of trust.
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I love that. I'm going to
be scanning the environment for faces even more
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intentionally now than I was before you
introduced that. But I've experienced all the
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things you described in clouds and rocks
and things. One of the business implications
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here. So just to kind of
connect the DOTS as we wind up,
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you shared a lot of compelling research. I think all of it makes sense.
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You've spoken directly to the one of
the things that motivated me to to
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start this podcast in the first places. And where does the human belong in
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the customer experience, whether it's a
tangible product or an intangible product or that
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or the product isn't experience. It's
itself button this down a little bit around
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this research. Where's this point?
What can someone do differently over the next
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day or week or month, or
what can they teach their team? You
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know, how might we operate differently
in light of this information? At sure,
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and it's you know, What's interesting
in these economic experiments, and again
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these are laboratory conditions where they measure
things and they control of variables. But
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in the laboratory environment they have found
by sharing, by showing a face,
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that the cooperation or the trustworthiness and
these interactions increases about fifteen to twenty percent,
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depending upon the experiment, and there's
been a lot of experiments that have
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kind of verified this idea. So
if you could just show your face and
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get fifteen to twenty percent higher cooperation
with a prospect or customer, that's a
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slam duck. Why not? Right? It's a simple thing that gives you
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a little bit of an edge and
that fifteen to twenty percent maybe all you
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need. So what I tell people
is, you know, put your face
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everywhere. Put your face on your
website, put it in your signature line
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and your email. You know,
if you have like little mail or cards,
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put a face on that. You
know, we all look at social
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media. We look at facebook.
While do we look at it? Do
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we read stuff? Now we look
for the pictures of the people and what
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that we know we're attracted to those
faces. So wherever you can put your
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face out there, and that's what
I really love about bombomb what you guys
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are doing, because it's really encapsulating
this and it's it's make it easier for
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people to show their faces and to
tell their story. And in the very
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beginning, when you're building a relationship, you want to have every advantage you
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can to set the bit to get
people to have that initial trust belief,
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and the more you do that,
the more you get on the right path.
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Now, at the end of the
day, you have to still act
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and a trustworthy fashion. Right,
ability of benevolence and integrity are all very
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important. If you if you yourself
or you work with your company who is
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incompetent or there you know their cheaters
or whatever, the truth comes out and
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people will learn their lesson. They'll
give you the benefit of the doubt,
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but in time you know they're going
to they're going to wake up to the
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way that you are. So you
had. Obviously the way you look has
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to match your actions. At the
end of the day, that's what's ultimately
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important. But getting that initial nudge, getting that initial direction forward, getting
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you that that appointment that you're seeking
with that new prospect, all of these
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little things add up and that put
you in a position to be successful.
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It's excellent integrity. My language on
integrity is consistency and word. Indeed,
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you know, are you going to
do the things that you promise, whether
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those our promises on your website or
promises on the phone, or promises that
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you can actually get customer support when
you need it, etcetera. So these
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things really add upability, benevolence and
integrity. There are a lot of ways
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to do it, but ultimately the
experience should be at some points human,
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and I think at you shared a
lot of really great recommendations in great research
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on the importance of this human aspect, which is trust based and obviously deeply
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embedded in our in our psyches.
Or anything you want to wrap on,
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to wrap up with here, anything
you want to share with folks that we
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maybe didn't touch on? No,
I think that's it and I really I
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appreciate you going down this path even
because, you know, a lot of
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times we get we get wrapped around
the axcel on metrics and processes and deliverables
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and contracts and, you know,
we do lose sight of this human this
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human nature, and business is all
about people. It's all about the how
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do we experience each other? How
do we learn and grow and learn to
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trust each other and do business and
hopefully do business again? You know,
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that's that is a human process and
we need to pay very close attention to
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that. So I would just recommend
to your listeners to give it a try,
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you know, take a run at
it. When I since I've been
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talking about this, people have come
back and said, you know, I
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gave that a go. It's on
scientific but man, it just feels different.
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Customers seem to respond a little bit
better. So I would say give
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it a go. That's excellent.
Thank you. A if someone wants to
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connect with you, ed and build
some no like and trust with you,
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what are some of the easiest ways
for anyone to connect with you? Well,
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I'm available on Linkedin. I connect
to people all the time. I
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said. Now a little you know, stories about those little snippets and in
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the middle of writing a book,
so hopefully when I do that I'll let
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you know one that's available and and
that but definitely linkedin. Is a good
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way to connect great ed powers.
Thank you so much for your time today
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on the customer experience podcast. I
will definitely have you back when you're able
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to button down that book, because
there are a lot of topics I'd love
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to talk with you about that we
didn't even get to touch on today.
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So I appreciate your time so much
and have a great rest of your week.
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Thanks. He's going to appreciate it. There's a lot of fun again.
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Ed was my first guest ever and
this is the most downloaded conversation on
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00:19:32.259 --> 00:19:37.380
the customer experience podcast. If you
want more conversations with sales executives, marketing
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executives, customer success executives, branding
experts, customer experience experts and more,
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check out the customer experience podcast in
Apple podcasts, Google podcast, spotify or
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wherever you prefer to listen. Learn
more by visiting bombombcom slash podcast. My
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name is Ethan Butte. Thank you
again so much for listening to the B
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tob growth show. I hate it
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