March 26, 2020

#CX 45: Marketing's About Context, Not Attention w/ Mathew Sweezey

In this episode of the #CX series, , Chief Evangelist at BombBomb, talks with , Director of Market Strategy at , about how the age of infinite media shifts the foundations of marketing away from attention and toward context. Hear more...

In this episode of the #CX series, Ethan Beute, Chief Evangelist at BombBomb, talks with Mathew Sweezey, Director of Market Strategy at Salesforce, about how the age of infinite media shifts the foundations of marketing away from attention and toward context.

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Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.910 It doesn't matter which one you choose. It just matters that you have the 2 00:00:07.950 --> 00:00:12.789 executive buy in to be inclusive and be a bridge builder between all experiences to 3 00:00:12.830 --> 00:00:16.190 make sure they're consistent and holistic, and that's the new pathway to growth. 4 00:00:17.789 --> 00:00:24.420 Marketing is no longer about attention. It's about context, and the implications extend 5 00:00:24.579 --> 00:00:30.780 far beyond your marketing team or your marketing function to the entire organization. My 6 00:00:30.859 --> 00:00:35.299 name is Ethan Butte. I'm the chief of angelist at bombomb and the host 7 00:00:35.420 --> 00:00:39.289 of the CX series here on B Tob Growth. You're about to listen in 8 00:00:39.490 --> 00:00:44.810 on a great conversation with Matt sweezy the principle of marketing insights at sales force. 9 00:00:45.409 --> 00:00:49.450 The work he's been doing over the past several years calls into questions so 10 00:00:49.649 --> 00:00:56.200 many foundations of the way we're doing marketing today. Attention versus context, limited 11 00:00:56.280 --> 00:01:02.159 media versus infinite media, who in your company should own customer experience and how 12 00:01:02.280 --> 00:01:04.790 to take a more human centered approach to the work that we do every day. 13 00:01:06.269 --> 00:01:11.629 Here's my conversation with Matt sweezy. Asking how can we make our marketing 14 00:01:11.670 --> 00:01:17.590 better is the wrong question. Instead, we need to ask why isn't our 15 00:01:17.709 --> 00:01:21.500 marketing working? When you ask why, you get much different answers, and 16 00:01:21.659 --> 00:01:25.420 that question and those answers are at the heart of the work being done by 17 00:01:25.500 --> 00:01:27.540 today's guest. He's been at sales force for seven and a half years, 18 00:01:27.540 --> 00:01:33.969 initially as an evangelist and presently as principle of marketing insights. He's the author 19 00:01:34.010 --> 00:01:38.849 of marketing automation for Dummies and the context marketing revolution, a new book that 20 00:01:38.849 --> 00:01:42.409 I've already pre ordered I'm really looking forward to. He's the producer and host 21 00:01:42.489 --> 00:01:48.000 of the Electronic Propaganda Society, a smart, valuable and even fun podcast series 22 00:01:48.280 --> 00:01:52.280 that rightfully earned a stack of awards. He's a contributing writer for sites like 23 00:01:52.400 --> 00:01:56.519 Forbes, marketing props and convince and convert. He's a frequent keynote speaker who 24 00:01:56.519 --> 00:02:00.200 I finally saw speak and finally met in person at dreamforce recently. And he's 25 00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:05.750 the cofounder of a brewery, Matthew sweezy. Welcome to the customer experience podcast. 26 00:02:06.390 --> 00:02:07.949 Thank you, than for having me. Yeah, really looking for to 27 00:02:07.990 --> 00:02:10.830 the conversation. Before we get go and just tell me a little bit about 28 00:02:12.030 --> 00:02:15.500 even tide brewing in Atlanta. How that come together, what's that look like 29 00:02:16.939 --> 00:02:23.300 at the craft brewery that me and a few other friends started? We just 30 00:02:23.379 --> 00:02:28.020 had our we just celebrated our sixth anniversary beginning of this month and yeah, 31 00:02:28.099 --> 00:02:30.330 so, I mean it's just kind of tagline. It is great. Doesn't 32 00:02:30.330 --> 00:02:32.650 have to be complicated, just a few friends making good beers and we sell 33 00:02:32.729 --> 00:02:37.129 all across the state of Georgia. Awesome. I will look for it when 34 00:02:37.129 --> 00:02:38.729 I get down to Georgia, which I'm planning to do the summer. It's 35 00:02:38.729 --> 00:02:43.889 a separate story. Let's start where we always start on the podcast, and 36 00:02:44.009 --> 00:02:46.960 I you have such a unique perspective on it. No, well, research 37 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:50.039 perspective, but we'll start the way I always ask it, which is your 38 00:02:50.120 --> 00:02:55.360 thoughts or characteristics or your definition of customer experience. Yes, there's two ways 39 00:02:55.400 --> 00:03:00.550 to answer that question. One is it's not up for me to define. 40 00:03:00.629 --> 00:03:02.349 It's up for each of our customers to de find in their own way, 41 00:03:02.710 --> 00:03:06.389 and I think that's actaid what the definition is. It's what I is someone 42 00:03:06.469 --> 00:03:08.550 perceived that they want the experience to be. I think we understand that. 43 00:03:08.669 --> 00:03:12.310 And then the flip side is then, how do we, as a brand 44 00:03:12.430 --> 00:03:15.259 fulfill that? and to me the experience is always the sum of all parts. 45 00:03:15.300 --> 00:03:19.419 Right, it's not one thing, it's the sum of everything that we 46 00:03:19.580 --> 00:03:23.659 do. We can use the term across the customer journey, but it's inclusive 47 00:03:23.699 --> 00:03:28.009 of marketing. It's inclusive but product experience, product use, support service. 48 00:03:28.449 --> 00:03:30.650 So to me I would put a capital ty and a capital e on the 49 00:03:30.849 --> 00:03:35.449 experience and assume that it's the sum of all things that we do. Love 50 00:03:35.449 --> 00:03:38.849 it. It touches on so many themes that people share. But you capture 51 00:03:38.169 --> 00:03:44.199 really concise fashion there and you talked about the entire customer life cycle there. 52 00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:47.479 And some of the research that you've done with some folks at sales force shows 53 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:54.830 that high performing marketing organizations are seventeen times better at collaborating across other departments, 54 00:03:54.909 --> 00:03:59.349 like you mentioned, sales, service, product, etc. Talk a little 55 00:03:59.389 --> 00:04:01.030 bit about that research and some of the tips that come out of it for 56 00:04:01.110 --> 00:04:04.030 folks who are listening. How can we collaborate better? Whether you're a market 57 00:04:04.069 --> 00:04:09.030 or not, the collaboration goes both ways. So give some give a little 58 00:04:09.030 --> 00:04:13.099 bit more context there and maybe some tips for people. Yeah, so the 59 00:04:13.180 --> 00:04:15.459 research. So every year it sales force, we do a state of marketing 60 00:04:15.500 --> 00:04:19.100 and over the past five years. The focus of that effort has really been 61 00:04:19.139 --> 00:04:25.170 to identify the key trace between high performing marketing organizations and everyone else, and 62 00:04:25.329 --> 00:04:30.009 just sord one's clear. These high performers are radically outperforming there ten times more 63 00:04:30.129 --> 00:04:34.290 likely to be, significantly being their direct competition. And then we start looking 64 00:04:34.329 --> 00:04:36.769 at what are those factors like? How are they actually able to do that? 65 00:04:38.290 --> 00:04:41.240 And, as you notice, one of the larger factors with this idea 66 00:04:41.319 --> 00:04:46.120 of collaboration. So the number one key trait of all high performers is executive 67 00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:49.000 buy into a new idea of marketing that's very much in line with the definition 68 00:04:49.079 --> 00:04:53.310 of the experience that we just talked about. In fact, that new definition 69 00:04:53.389 --> 00:04:57.829 of marketing is that marketing is the owner and sustainer of all experiences, not 70 00:04:58.110 --> 00:05:01.189 just the creator of messages. It's a once that becomes the foundation. Then 71 00:05:01.189 --> 00:05:05.149 we start tactically looking at what high performers are doing, and it takes collaboration 72 00:05:05.269 --> 00:05:10.300 because, as we talked about, experience with a Capul t Accapitali has gross 73 00:05:10.379 --> 00:05:14.779 all touch points and only when you have collaboration can those things can be consistent 74 00:05:14.980 --> 00:05:18.379 and holistic and then create the experience that is required. I when you look 75 00:05:18.379 --> 00:05:21.529 at very specific use cases of saying all right, and it's some of these 76 00:05:21.569 --> 00:05:25.610 things are baffling, like it's not a radical idea, right, it's not 77 00:05:25.730 --> 00:05:28.370 like I never thought of that, like Duh, right, it's one of 78 00:05:28.370 --> 00:05:30.250 those kind of concepts. But then when we look at the actual task co 79 00:05:30.370 --> 00:05:35.160 execution of how well or organizations able to execute, I mean basic concepts of 80 00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:40.439 collaboration, like, take a simple example. Let's not market the people who 81 00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:44.639 are in the support Q. Pretty Simple. But what you might be surprised 82 00:05:44.680 --> 00:05:47.959 there's only one third of all businesses can actually do that. And it's because 83 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:51.509 the way that we've currently been structured as marketing is a department that sits outside 84 00:05:51.509 --> 00:05:56.149 sales of Zone, department, support, service, product, that all silod 85 00:05:56.189 --> 00:05:59.589 departments operating for their own goals. And I was talking to a company the 86 00:05:59.670 --> 00:06:02.189 other day and they see I tried to go over and talk to support and 87 00:06:02.269 --> 00:06:04.060 said, can I get a list of all the people and are in the 88 00:06:04.060 --> 00:06:09.180 supports you so I can suppress them from this outcoming marketing email, and the 89 00:06:09.300 --> 00:06:12.579 answer that the support team gave them was no, that's my data, you 90 00:06:12.660 --> 00:06:15.740 can't have it. Right. So when we face it in and that's not 91 00:06:15.819 --> 00:06:17.889 the only company. A lot of US face these problems. So to overcome 92 00:06:17.889 --> 00:06:21.610 these it's a couple of things. One is your executives have to understand that 93 00:06:21.730 --> 00:06:28.009 the highest economic output that you can produce is the experience. Right, eighty 94 00:06:28.050 --> 00:06:30.930 four percent of consumers say the experience is just as important as the product or 95 00:06:31.009 --> 00:06:35.000 service. It is a new product that we are selling in one might say 96 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:39.839 it's the greater of the products because it is everything and it touches all things, 97 00:06:40.199 --> 00:06:44.319 where's product usage is only a small sliver of the total time. And 98 00:06:44.560 --> 00:06:46.920 those are some basic concepts and ideas, but it, you know, just 99 00:06:46.040 --> 00:06:48.709 the idea of experience has to go through it, and that's what high performers 100 00:06:48.709 --> 00:06:51.829 are doing. They have the executive buy in and it allows them to have 101 00:06:51.949 --> 00:06:57.069 that collaboration. Yeah, I mean you really get to the one of the 102 00:06:57.149 --> 00:07:00.069 main reasons I started this podcast was out of partly out of my own interest 103 00:07:00.230 --> 00:07:03.579 in this. It's like we all get it. It's super important. Product 104 00:07:03.660 --> 00:07:09.339 parity is through the roof hyper competition. The experience is more important than ever 105 00:07:09.740 --> 00:07:14.779 and, to your observation, probably the most important thing. And yet when 106 00:07:14.819 --> 00:07:18.089 it comes to executing it's really difficult because even in a healthy culture we can 107 00:07:18.129 --> 00:07:21.449 start to feel Silod so I love that you go to executive buy in there. 108 00:07:21.930 --> 00:07:26.410 I'll just one more follow up on that. Talk about the consequences. 109 00:07:26.490 --> 00:07:30.000 Like let's assume that a company's executive team is bought in on this idea that 110 00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:34.920 capital, t capital ev experience is the most important thing. Talk about the 111 00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:43.079 effect on like the relationship between CMO, Cro and Cxo, chief experience officer. 112 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:46.389 I know that you've read and spoken a bit on that, like what 113 00:07:46.509 --> 00:07:50.430 are you seeing around these titles and in the relationships with team tween these people 114 00:07:50.430 --> 00:07:56.670 acronyms? You left one off to that was CGEO, chief growth officer. 115 00:07:57.189 --> 00:07:59.980 So really, you know, when we when we start to talk about the 116 00:08:00.060 --> 00:08:03.459 tactle, the tactical execution of these ideas, and we start to say if 117 00:08:03.540 --> 00:08:07.579 marketing and it's old format is no longer what we are now doing, then 118 00:08:07.660 --> 00:08:13.209 the old executive no longer is appropriate, right, and so the CMO being 119 00:08:13.250 --> 00:08:15.889 the old executive. And actually, you know, it's interesting. If you've 120 00:08:15.930 --> 00:08:18.490 not been in the marketing field for a while, you might not know that 121 00:08:18.649 --> 00:08:22.850 Cmo was a pretty new term. It came out as digital came out right 122 00:08:22.889 --> 00:08:26.089 when digital marketing came out the truly when CMO comes out in the foretpront. 123 00:08:26.129 --> 00:08:28.319 Before that, I was VP of sales and marketing for most the organizations, 124 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:33.919 of VP of marketing for other organizations. Now that we move forward, right, 125 00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:37.799 and Cemo took on the roles of digital branding, advertising, all those 126 00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:41.269 different aspects, email direct now we start to say to the experience, right, 127 00:08:41.309 --> 00:08:43.350 and so there's two ways to look at experience. One, as you 128 00:08:43.429 --> 00:08:46.629 can say, we are going to focus on experience and that is just a 129 00:08:46.750 --> 00:08:50.669 term. The other flip side of the same coin is to say that we 130 00:08:50.750 --> 00:08:54.149 are going to look at growth. So it's either a chief experience officer or 131 00:08:54.269 --> 00:08:56.659 cheeth growth officer that we see is kind of driving a lot of these. 132 00:08:56.740 --> 00:09:01.220 We also still have the CRO chief revenue officer, and that also could be 133 00:09:01.259 --> 00:09:05.820 looking at growth, and just depends on how they use the definition. What 134 00:09:05.940 --> 00:09:09.019 really I see one of those three formats, either chief experience, chief growth 135 00:09:09.059 --> 00:09:13.490 or cheap revenue officer, really being the future leader of the marketing organization, 136 00:09:13.690 --> 00:09:16.690 because they're focused on a holistic goal and that holistic goal is growth by a 137 00:09:16.809 --> 00:09:20.090 better experience. And we say growth at the exact same word is revenue. 138 00:09:20.370 --> 00:09:24.759 So it doesn't matter if your CROCGEOC exo. That really is the future. 139 00:09:24.840 --> 00:09:28.440 But that leader when us be clear on what that leader must do. That 140 00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:33.600 job is to create a connected experience. They must be the one who says, 141 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:37.320 all right, we increase revenue not by just selling more product, but 142 00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:41.029 by creating a better experience across the entire life cycle. That's just as important 143 00:09:41.070 --> 00:09:43.909 for us to create a good service and connect that to marketing and messaging, 144 00:09:43.590 --> 00:09:48.029 just as much as it is to put New People into the pipeline and service 145 00:09:48.110 --> 00:09:50.629 them all the way through. So yes, I think all three of those 146 00:09:50.669 --> 00:09:52.539 are accurate and doesn't matter which one you choose. It just matters that you 147 00:09:52.659 --> 00:09:58.539 have the executive buy into be inclusive and be a bridge builder between all experiences 148 00:09:58.700 --> 00:10:01.139 to make sure they're consistent and holistic. And that's the new pathway to growth. 149 00:10:01.460 --> 00:10:03.019 Love it. I'm going to I'm going to give you a couple of 150 00:10:03.059 --> 00:10:07.330 your own quotes and ask you one follow up before we get onto the context 151 00:10:07.409 --> 00:10:13.090 marketing revolution, new book jure Pror Business Press. Right, I might ask 152 00:10:13.090 --> 00:10:16.809 about that relationship to because that's fool publisher. But but before you just a 153 00:10:16.850 --> 00:10:20.720 couple quotes of yours. Marketing creates experiences, not messages. Your brand isn't 154 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:24.399 what you say, it's to some of all experiences you create. Right, 155 00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:28.080 I think you've already touched on some of these teams already, but talk about 156 00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:31.039 just because it has been a background thing as I've been talking with a variety 157 00:10:31.039 --> 00:10:33.559 of people in a variety of seats in a conversation like the one we're having 158 00:10:33.559 --> 00:10:39.509 now. Talk about your view of brand experience and customer experience. Are they 159 00:10:39.669 --> 00:10:43.389 synonymous or is it just semantic and you don't even care? It's not interesting 160 00:10:43.470 --> 00:10:46.549 to you? I'm more on the second of it's just semantics, because what 161 00:10:46.750 --> 00:10:50.139 is brand? Well, brand is the sum of all experiences, right, 162 00:10:50.139 --> 00:10:52.659 and if that's what we define as brand, or so I mean it, 163 00:10:54.539 --> 00:10:56.659 and then how you tactually execute those could be different things. Right. Is 164 00:10:56.740 --> 00:11:00.980 the tactical execution? Is the goal of the marketing to drive and engagement, 165 00:11:01.019 --> 00:11:03.059 a move the person forward into a customer journey? That's much going to be 166 00:11:03.139 --> 00:11:07.529 much more of a customer Experience Marketing Initiative. Where is what? If the 167 00:11:07.610 --> 00:11:09.169 goal is just to make sure people are aware of us, know who we 168 00:11:09.289 --> 00:11:13.210 are? That's much more of a traditional brand ie, just becoming aware of 169 00:11:13.289 --> 00:11:16.169 who we are and what our mission and what our ideas are. So to 170 00:11:16.289 --> 00:11:20.720 me they're both the exact same thing, because I believe brand is the sum 171 00:11:20.759 --> 00:11:24.000 of all experiences that you that you create. And the reason I say that 172 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:26.279 it's because you can tell the world all the messages, you can say this 173 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:28.879 is who we are, you can put all the pretty pictures up, you 174 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:33.230 can just have the best copy and best advertising in the world. That's branding. 175 00:11:33.909 --> 00:11:35.509 But as soon as they interact with you in any way, shape or 176 00:11:35.549 --> 00:11:39.710 form, if that's not consistent with the message or the projection or the expectation 177 00:11:39.789 --> 00:11:43.950 that you've set, then you're you don't how a brand right, because the 178 00:11:45.110 --> 00:11:48.940 sum is they found something radically different and now they feel load too. Hence 179 00:11:48.259 --> 00:11:52.580 you now I have a very bad brand. So to me it's it's a 180 00:11:52.659 --> 00:11:54.340 lot of some of all experiences, and they're really the same thing to me. 181 00:11:54.820 --> 00:12:00.259 Yep, good. And it's not just it's not just that it can 182 00:12:00.340 --> 00:12:03.809 go terribly bad. I mean, did that disconnect just plane create confusion? 183 00:12:03.330 --> 00:12:07.610 Not even which, of course, as a negative sentiment as well. So 184 00:12:07.809 --> 00:12:11.769 the context marketing revolution, how to motivate buyers in the age of infinite media. 185 00:12:11.889 --> 00:12:15.840 Full title of the book. That is you know, this will be 186 00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:18.480 released, I think, a little bit before the book more released. Yeah, 187 00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:22.320 this episode will be a little bit before it. Before we get into 188 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:26.480 some of the themes and topics, when did you know that this was a 189 00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:28.279 book that you wanted to write? Like, why did you? Because you're 190 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:31.070 you know, you're studying these things, you're talking about them, you're teaching 191 00:12:31.149 --> 00:12:35.350 them, etcetera. Like. When did you say I need to round this 192 00:12:35.389 --> 00:12:39.950 up and put it in a book? Yeah, so I don't know when 193 00:12:39.110 --> 00:12:41.789 that was. I think it probably came down to when I was doing the 194 00:12:41.870 --> 00:12:46.820 research. And just so I'm always constantly researching topics and researching things, and 195 00:12:46.940 --> 00:12:50.139 one of the things I was trying to research was what is the cost of 196 00:12:50.220 --> 00:12:52.019 marking going to be in the future? And when I started to look at 197 00:12:52.059 --> 00:12:54.539 that, that required me to say, all right, if what is the 198 00:12:54.620 --> 00:12:58.889 cost to break through the noise? And then that one more step was we 199 00:12:58.009 --> 00:13:01.049 now need to start measuring the noise. So I started measuring noise fro one 200 00:13:01.049 --> 00:13:05.929 thosand nine hundred all the way through and projected to twenty thirty best as I 201 00:13:05.009 --> 00:13:09.490 could. And then when I started to find out was how we started to 202 00:13:09.570 --> 00:13:13.759 think about these things and the environments that marketing is taking place in a radically 203 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:18.879 different from the fundamental level, from a media theory level, and so once 204 00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:22.480 I started to realize that and realize that the iterations that we continue to iterate 205 00:13:22.519 --> 00:13:28.149 upon we're specific games that were created for a specific environment and that no longer 206 00:13:28.389 --> 00:13:31.590 is true, that's really when I decided that, all right, this is 207 00:13:31.830 --> 00:13:33.509 this is big. We need to really think about this and focus on this, 208 00:13:35.149 --> 00:13:37.509 because this is not an iteration on old marketing ideas. Right, iterating 209 00:13:37.549 --> 00:13:41.389 on old ideas will not carry us forward into the future. Back to the 210 00:13:41.820 --> 00:13:43.899 quote you opened up with, we ask how do we be better? We 211 00:13:45.019 --> 00:13:48.860 simply take the ideas and foundations and iterate upon them. Well, if the 212 00:13:48.899 --> 00:13:52.940 foundational ideas are no longer correct, we're iterating upon something and creating something bad. 213 00:13:54.340 --> 00:13:56.090 So we have to question those foundations and I think when I realized and 214 00:13:56.250 --> 00:14:01.730 did the research on noise, been found that we entered a new media environment, 215 00:14:01.769 --> 00:14:03.289 that that's really when I decided that, hey, this is important, 216 00:14:03.289 --> 00:14:07.169 we should talk about this. Cool, I think, since I have not 217 00:14:07.289 --> 00:14:09.450 read the book, I think one way to get at it is through the 218 00:14:09.529 --> 00:14:11.879 title and we're right on the doorstep of this one. Talk about what you 219 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:16.360 mean by infinite media and what are its consequences, because that really is the 220 00:14:16.519 --> 00:14:22.440 crux of a lot of this totally so infinite media. So if we follow 221 00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:26.990 media theory, which is really kind of spearheaded by Marsh mccluhan, harold and 222 00:14:26.149 --> 00:14:31.149 its Neal Postman, it's essentially a theory that says human behavior is dictated by 223 00:14:31.190 --> 00:14:35.830 the media environment that surround them. Right, and when we think about media 224 00:14:35.830 --> 00:14:39.980 environment, it's not twitter, social media, it it's something much greater, 225 00:14:39.340 --> 00:14:43.100 you know, just like the basic concepts of how the printing press took the 226 00:14:43.139 --> 00:14:46.899 world out of the Dark Ages and into the age of enlightenment. So infinite 227 00:14:46.940 --> 00:14:50.539 media is in contrast to limited media. And before two thousand and nine, 228 00:14:50.539 --> 00:14:54.490 based on my mathematics, that was the limited media environment and that meant three 229 00:14:54.529 --> 00:15:00.769 specific things. Media was limited in terms of creation, in terms of distribution 230 00:15:00.889 --> 00:15:05.490 in terms of total consumption. So when those three things are limited, that's 231 00:15:05.490 --> 00:15:09.039 a very specific environment and we play a very specific game within that environment. 232 00:15:09.080 --> 00:15:13.039 Right, and if you look at who had access, you know, to 233 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:18.840 overcome any one of those barriers it required capital. So bright from predominantly noise 234 00:15:18.960 --> 00:15:22.789 was created by businesses. There was a monopoly, and then would after two 235 00:15:22.830 --> 00:15:26.029 thousand and nine what we find is that the individuals creating their own media, 236 00:15:26.070 --> 00:15:31.029 right on social media, on email, as well as their devices, they 237 00:15:31.149 --> 00:15:33.549 now are the largest creators of noise, since noise is very different, and 238 00:15:33.789 --> 00:15:37.700 also it follows a very different pattern where they continue to create more and more 239 00:15:37.820 --> 00:15:41.860 and more and from more players. So we see an infinite level of noise 240 00:15:41.940 --> 00:15:46.179 rising. Right, there's no barriers to creation, there's no barriers to distribution 241 00:15:46.539 --> 00:15:50.009 and there's an infinite amount of content available for apt for access. What this 242 00:15:50.129 --> 00:15:54.090 really means is that consumers now operate in a different world and they have different 243 00:15:54.169 --> 00:16:00.250 decisionmaking tools and they have different decisionmaking processes. So the way that marketing was 244 00:16:00.330 --> 00:16:04.519 raist and crafted was to say we are here to motivate individuals given a specific 245 00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:08.519 set of circumstances of how they make decisions. What I'm arguing for saying all 246 00:16:08.519 --> 00:16:12.720 right, consumers now have a radically different decision making process and the role of 247 00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:18.480 marketing now is radically different, which much, much must match that process based 248 00:16:18.519 --> 00:16:21.269 on the environment. So, along with the short, infinite media means that 249 00:16:21.509 --> 00:16:26.190 now consumers are in control and how we motivate them is not by grant copy 250 00:16:26.549 --> 00:16:30.629 or single advertising campaigns where we said something so created we got them to take 251 00:16:30.669 --> 00:16:33.700 action. Rather, we must understand that these things now take plays across a 252 00:16:33.779 --> 00:16:38.220 long series. Everything is a journey and motivation is done by guiding individuals by 253 00:16:38.299 --> 00:16:42.580 step by step across that journey, not by trying to get them to skip 254 00:16:42.700 --> 00:16:47.370 steps. So it's pretty much the basis. Yep, it makes perfect sense, 255 00:16:47.529 --> 00:16:49.889 and that's just to tie it back for people that that haven't tied it 256 00:16:49.970 --> 00:16:53.129 back in their own heads already. That is why this iterative approach is, 257 00:16:53.210 --> 00:16:57.970 how do we make it better? Does not apply because it we're just building 258 00:16:59.009 --> 00:17:00.919 on old blocks. Is Funny. I remember reading a book. It's called 259 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:08.519 scientific advertising. Is like a either a thin booker really amazing pamphlet that's decades 260 00:17:08.599 --> 00:17:11.960 and decades old and it's basically so much when I think about a lot of 261 00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:15.670 digital advertising right now. In the iterative approach, you know we can we 262 00:17:15.750 --> 00:17:19.109 can do a be test faster, but essentially it's the same thing this guy 263 00:17:19.190 --> 00:17:25.230 was writing about in direct mail and magazine adds decades and decades and decades ago. 264 00:17:25.390 --> 00:17:26.789 So, you know, we feel like we're so well equipped in the 265 00:17:26.829 --> 00:17:30.539 pace of things as fast, but still it's an iterative approach. Nonetheless. 266 00:17:30.859 --> 00:17:34.380 Let's go to the front side of the title of the book, the Context 267 00:17:34.500 --> 00:17:37.779 Marketing Revolution. I think revolution is already baked in. I think it. 268 00:17:38.259 --> 00:17:42.380 Anyone that's listening to what you're talking about in and the consequences of the age 269 00:17:42.420 --> 00:17:48.049 of infinite media sees that this is revolutionary. But talk a little bit about 270 00:17:48.049 --> 00:17:52.210 context marketing. What is context in this context? Yeah, yeah, so 271 00:17:52.690 --> 00:17:56.089 the context is once again, it's in contrast is something. It's in contrast 272 00:17:56.170 --> 00:18:00.559 to the word attention. So the foundation of marketing in the limits of media 273 00:18:00.599 --> 00:18:03.359 era was how do we break through, grab someone's attention and get them to 274 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:06.640 do what we want? Right, that was how we motivated people to Action. 275 00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:08.960 Now when we see is we motivate people by context, and that really 276 00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:14.509 has a couple of factors. One saying that with infinite media we now have 277 00:18:14.589 --> 00:18:18.869 an intermediary between brands and individuals. That intermediary is artificial intelligence. Will Ai 278 00:18:19.190 --> 00:18:22.869 is only going to let through what is contextual to that individual for the moment, 279 00:18:23.190 --> 00:18:26.779 because that's which generates the highest engagement, and you can see. Look 280 00:18:26.779 --> 00:18:30.940 at any social feed, look at anything that's mediated by digital by the by 281 00:18:32.019 --> 00:18:34.660 Ai, and you will see at the contextual feed, your Google search results, 282 00:18:34.700 --> 00:18:37.460 you're the results are specific to you in the context of you in that 283 00:18:37.579 --> 00:18:41.809 moment. Right. You look at social media, that feed is the contextual 284 00:18:41.849 --> 00:18:45.730 feed. That our chronological feed. You look at your email inbox right in. 285 00:18:45.809 --> 00:18:48.569 The list goes on and on and on. And so, for number 286 00:18:48.650 --> 00:18:51.450 one, for a marketing to break through, it has to be in context 287 00:18:51.569 --> 00:18:55.289 of the moment. That's key number one for context. Key number two is 288 00:18:55.369 --> 00:18:59.039 that context also means. What does it mean to the individual? So we 289 00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:00.519 got on this big kick of content marking. Right, all we need to 290 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:04.480 do is create content. But the problem is no individual ever said Damn, 291 00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:08.759 I want content today. So what they want, if they want something that's 292 00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:11.750 contextual, to help them solve a goal, bry, and that's really the 293 00:19:11.789 --> 00:19:15.390 definition of the tactical execution of context, is how do we help, being 294 00:19:15.430 --> 00:19:19.670 into the individuals, solve the goal of the moment and by helping them accomplish 295 00:19:19.750 --> 00:19:23.190 that goal we build the trust we need. Right and doesn't matter where it 296 00:19:23.230 --> 00:19:26.339 is, we break through because we can help them with that moment we didn't 297 00:19:26.339 --> 00:19:29.740 build the trust we need, and then we're able to leverage that moment to 298 00:19:29.819 --> 00:19:32.859 guide them to the next step and by doing that we then are able to 299 00:19:32.940 --> 00:19:36.299 then generate the demand by guiding people, by saying we're going to take this 300 00:19:36.460 --> 00:19:38.289 and keep you going down this path. But then that's kind of the basic 301 00:19:38.329 --> 00:19:45.609 concepts. That's really a concept of context. In the contrast to attention everybody 302 00:19:45.809 --> 00:19:49.170 logan with sweet fish here, I had to take just a second today to 303 00:19:49.289 --> 00:19:56.000 share with you another podcast that's in my regular listening rotation. The sales engagement 304 00:19:56.039 --> 00:20:00.279 podcast has some great interviews and you pick up a lot of best practices from 305 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:04.640 revenue leaders that are doing the job day in and day out. I've picked 306 00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:08.230 up so much learning from other sales leaders that are featured on the show. 307 00:20:08.549 --> 00:20:15.029 One of my favorites is seven things marketing wish sales knew about nurturing leads. 308 00:20:15.430 --> 00:20:18.710 So check out the sales engagement podcast wherever you do, you're listening and by 309 00:20:18.710 --> 00:20:22.940 the way, if you're not following Scott Barker on Linkedin, you should do 310 00:20:22.019 --> 00:20:26.500 that too. All right, let's get back to the show. For folks 311 00:20:26.500 --> 00:20:30.099 who are listening normally we'd wait to the end of the episode, but I'll 312 00:20:30.099 --> 00:20:33.900 just go ahead and say it for you. The context marketing revolution is available 313 00:20:33.900 --> 00:20:36.769 for preorder. You can pre order on Amazon. That's what I did. 314 00:20:37.690 --> 00:20:40.009 You know, if you like these ideas, and I'll transition, there's a 315 00:20:40.130 --> 00:20:41.529 there's a way you can get a preview of a lot of these ideas too, 316 00:20:41.569 --> 00:20:45.849 in a really cool format, but really quickly. Now. Did you 317 00:20:45.970 --> 00:20:48.250 build a proposal and shop at to different publishers? How'd you get connected with 318 00:20:48.289 --> 00:20:53.000 Harvard Business? Yeah, so I wrote an outline, roaded draft and then 319 00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:57.160 pitched it to a bunch of different publishers. So I had three publishers willing 320 00:20:57.200 --> 00:21:02.400 to publish it. Then when Harvard's one of them, Harvard Business, who's 321 00:21:02.839 --> 00:21:04.509 who doesn't want who has been dream of being published by Harvard Business, I 322 00:21:04.630 --> 00:21:07.509 was like sure, let's let's have you guys publish it. That's how it 323 00:21:07.549 --> 00:21:14.390 happened. Awesome. Congratulations. For people who like these ideas and are in 324 00:21:14.509 --> 00:21:18.029 anticipation of the book itself, I want to offer that you can go to 325 00:21:18.509 --> 00:21:21.859 itunes or apple podcast, wherever you listen to podcast, wherever you listen to 326 00:21:21.900 --> 00:21:26.900 the customer experience podcast, and go search electronic Propaganda Society Award winning series, 327 00:21:27.380 --> 00:21:32.539 incredibly well produced, unlike this one in so many other podcasts, not interview 328 00:21:32.660 --> 00:21:37.450 based. You know, it lays out all of these theories over and ideas 329 00:21:37.529 --> 00:21:41.890 and research over nine episodes in so I guess just to open it up on 330 00:21:42.049 --> 00:21:47.089 on the electronic propaganda society, what were you trying to deliver in terms of 331 00:21:47.160 --> 00:21:51.559 experience, like, why the audience format and why this style of production? 332 00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:55.640 Maybe? Yeah, a couple of reasons. One, I'm a creator, 333 00:21:56.000 --> 00:21:57.799 just I think most of us are, and I wanted to create some Rad 334 00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:03.269 right, just pure passion project, no bounds, see how far I can 335 00:22:03.349 --> 00:22:07.829 push and see how radically creative I can be with something, and so I've 336 00:22:07.950 --> 00:22:11.109 created that format. Right. So it's not a traditional podcast, it's not 337 00:22:11.190 --> 00:22:15.900 interview based. It's a basic very much off cereal. So it's a nine 338 00:22:15.220 --> 00:22:21.299 series episode that tells a single story and then it's heavily researched, heavily produced, 339 00:22:21.660 --> 00:22:25.380 just because I wanted to do it that way and I thought that's would 340 00:22:25.380 --> 00:22:30.130 make a good experience and make a really cool make something that people would enjoy. 341 00:22:30.410 --> 00:22:33.569 You know, it's very different than anything that's out there and it's why 342 00:22:33.569 --> 00:22:37.170 I want so many creative awards for it when it came out. So believe 343 00:22:37.210 --> 00:22:40.930 I've got five creative awards for it currently. But yes, that was it 344 00:22:41.049 --> 00:22:44.210 and and it's super red and it's something like you've never heard before and that 345 00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:48.400 was kind of the point. I agree completely and and it really does tea 346 00:22:48.440 --> 00:22:51.480 up all the stuff we've been talking about so far. I love it as 347 00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:56.359 a compliment to having seen you present on some of these topics and an anticipation 348 00:22:56.759 --> 00:23:00.390 of the forthcoming book. I think they're probably a lot of connections with the 349 00:23:00.549 --> 00:23:03.670 obviously are a lot of connections between them. What were some of your inspirations, 350 00:23:03.789 --> 00:23:07.190 like, are you a podcast listener or you know, like, what 351 00:23:07.269 --> 00:23:11.109 were some of your inspirations? Is You're like trying to create something that was 352 00:23:11.150 --> 00:23:15.380 awesome for you. So I don't listen to mini podcast. I think it 353 00:23:15.460 --> 00:23:18.900 listened to. I think I made it almost all the way through cereal, 354 00:23:19.500 --> 00:23:26.259 but I think just just radical formats of content. Write a great a great 355 00:23:26.380 --> 00:23:30.890 documentary, a great document series, and I just figured that it was easier 356 00:23:30.930 --> 00:23:33.410 to do by a podcast and any other format. So I did it by 357 00:23:33.529 --> 00:23:38.130 the PODCAST. For Inspiration, definitely serial. I researt to a friend of 358 00:23:38.170 --> 00:23:44.000 mine WHO's a producer at w whatever the public radio station is in New York, 359 00:23:44.920 --> 00:23:48.880 about my brain stopped. But read some books sound reporting. That was 360 00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:52.759 written by MPR. So kind of just you know, audio how to do 361 00:23:52.839 --> 00:23:56.710 those things. But really just listened to podcast just would then go listen to 362 00:23:56.750 --> 00:24:00.589 the top rated podcast and been listen to what I believe made them top rated 363 00:24:00.630 --> 00:24:03.150 and then just mimics that. So it wasn't like some you know, crazy 364 00:24:03.230 --> 00:24:07.990 thing. And then really the theme was, you know, s and S 365 00:24:07.390 --> 00:24:11.740 S, Soviet are propaganda that. So that was kind of like the underlying 366 00:24:11.779 --> 00:24:15.700 artistic theme for this Hense, you know, the revolution. That kind of 367 00:24:15.819 --> 00:24:19.339 was, you know, the visual format. Yeah, you'll really put down. 368 00:24:19.700 --> 00:24:23.809 You'll know you found the right podcast when you see some of that that 369 00:24:25.049 --> 00:24:29.250 era artwork. It's really the whole theme is really well developed. Obviously you 370 00:24:29.329 --> 00:24:30.609 drew in a ton of I mean one of the to me, one of 371 00:24:30.609 --> 00:24:37.369 the most impressive things from our production standpoint was how much original audio you brought 372 00:24:37.450 --> 00:24:42.279 into eclips and quotes and speeches and the night rider theme song and historical clips 373 00:24:42.359 --> 00:24:48.480 and like fun edits stuff. But you also reference several books that I just 374 00:24:48.599 --> 00:24:51.119 really love and respect, and I'm just going to name a handful of them. 375 00:24:51.319 --> 00:24:55.710 The cluetrain manifesto. You will don the experience he kind of me by 376 00:24:55.789 --> 00:24:59.109 finding Gilmore. They have a new one out recently. The medium is the 377 00:24:59.309 --> 00:25:03.230 message from a clue and who you're already reference? Permission Marketing from Seth God, 378 00:25:03.349 --> 00:25:06.990 which was very fundamental to us at bombomb as we started getting going, 379 00:25:07.339 --> 00:25:10.059 and one of my personal favorite books of all times, small ast beautiful, 380 00:25:10.059 --> 00:25:14.220 by EF Schumacher. One am I too. Yeah, how are you like 381 00:25:14.339 --> 00:25:18.259 a prolific reader? Like how in any other if I mentioned those books and 382 00:25:18.660 --> 00:25:22.890 people liked a couple of them? You know, what are some other favorites 383 00:25:22.089 --> 00:25:27.849 that you've got? It's so first off, so I don't know if I 384 00:25:27.970 --> 00:25:33.450 consider myself prolific. I consider myself a follower of rabbit holes. So when 385 00:25:33.490 --> 00:25:37.359 I start going down, when there's a question in my head, I try 386 00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:41.839 to then go research and follow that rabbit hole until it's exhausted, and what 387 00:25:41.960 --> 00:25:47.400 that really ends up with is me going down very Arcad Arcane, archaic like 388 00:25:47.880 --> 00:25:52.589 different paths and finding random authors, little books or big books that not better 389 00:25:52.670 --> 00:25:56.269 on that topic. So it's really kind of how I come across all those 390 00:25:56.309 --> 00:25:57.829 and then in conversation of Hey, I read this with a friend. Oh 391 00:25:57.910 --> 00:26:00.390 well, then, have you read this through your organic probably find them. 392 00:26:00.670 --> 00:26:03.740 So I wouldn't conser myself. That's really prolific. I have read a lot, 393 00:26:03.940 --> 00:26:07.940 just based on the work I do and kind of those rabbit holes and 394 00:26:07.019 --> 00:26:12.180 making sure I and really I think it comes out of the reason I do 395 00:26:12.299 --> 00:26:15.660 that. It's not because I'm a prolific reader. It's more or less because 396 00:26:15.660 --> 00:26:18.210 I'm insecure, and I think the insecurity is I never want to be on 397 00:26:18.329 --> 00:26:22.369 stage and say something and have someone say that it's wrong because you never read 398 00:26:22.410 --> 00:26:26.769 this book and in this book he argues against that point. Right. So 399 00:26:26.809 --> 00:26:30.049 I wanted to make sure that I had a theoretical foundation, that you know, 400 00:26:30.089 --> 00:26:32.769 I knew everything, anything that is going to come at me, and 401 00:26:32.809 --> 00:26:33.759 I think that was the reason I read. So I wouldn't say I'm a 402 00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:37.440 prolifical I just say I did for those reasons. The second on the other 403 00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:41.160 books that people may enjoy, such a hard question to answer and there's so 404 00:26:41.240 --> 00:26:45.519 many books that I read from so many different things, and it's like do 405 00:26:45.559 --> 00:26:48.109 you want a historical contact? It's like, all right, we talked about 406 00:26:48.150 --> 00:26:51.069 feedback loops, but it's like, did you ever really read the original book, 407 00:26:51.150 --> 00:26:56.190 which is Robert? There's original books by we'd Kinmember I can't pronounce. 408 00:26:56.190 --> 00:26:59.630 The last day. You talked about feedback loops back in the S now. 409 00:26:59.750 --> 00:27:03.140 Is really the foundational aspect of then telling all those concepts. And you know, 410 00:27:03.220 --> 00:27:06.619 we talked about experience and you know the experience economy, Josephine, Jim 411 00:27:06.660 --> 00:27:11.339 Gilmore foundational to that theory. Doc Searles, one of the coouthers of flutrained 412 00:27:11.339 --> 00:27:12.900 meniphists. Those got a bunch of other books. That film's got a bunch 413 00:27:12.900 --> 00:27:17.730 of other books and there. You know, it just depends on how nerdy 414 00:27:17.930 --> 00:27:21.490 or how tactical or how practical you want to be with the book recommendation. 415 00:27:22.009 --> 00:27:25.210 And there's so many good books out there that's just so hard. But if 416 00:27:25.250 --> 00:27:27.329 I could just take a second to talk about what you said was your favorite 417 00:27:27.329 --> 00:27:30.880 and my favorite, which is ef Hu Moncker, smallest putiful. So pretty 418 00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:36.079 much I've seen through the majority of my favorite books. It's this constant theme 419 00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:40.200 of humanity of ef you mocker talks about, you know, and there's lots 420 00:27:40.200 --> 00:27:42.839 of quotes I use and one is that you know, industry is, you 421 00:27:42.920 --> 00:27:47.109 know, so great and it but it's so inefficient to a degree that we 422 00:27:47.190 --> 00:27:51.269 don't really realize it's an efficiency. Hence we just let it continue being inefficient. 423 00:27:51.349 --> 00:27:52.230 Right. But if we start to look at these things and say, 424 00:27:52.230 --> 00:27:56.109 all right, if we put humans at the center of everything, right, 425 00:27:56.109 --> 00:27:57.470 if we put humans at the center of our business, right, if you 426 00:27:57.509 --> 00:28:00.460 put humans at the center of what marketing should be, if we put humans 427 00:28:00.460 --> 00:28:04.500 in the center of Economics, we see a very different approach and on that 428 00:28:04.579 --> 00:28:07.619 and if you haven't read the book all that, Autistabsle the island, I 429 00:28:07.660 --> 00:28:11.819 would say make sure you read autosuth through the island. It's not a marketing 430 00:28:11.859 --> 00:28:14.690 book. It's totally a book about humanity and about you know what, if 431 00:28:14.690 --> 00:28:17.609 we thought about living in a different way. But I think that's the my 432 00:28:17.730 --> 00:28:21.369 favorite theme through all those books is just a challenge and I just can't I 433 00:28:21.410 --> 00:28:25.369 can't say enough about sumchers theories of you know what, if we thought about 434 00:28:25.410 --> 00:28:30.160 economics not as the highest financial return, which is the highest stakeholder theory return, 435 00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:33.359 which is essentially he talks about way before stakeholder theory became the same, 436 00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:37.359 and that's then leads you into purpose driven business, purpose of the marketing. 437 00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:41.829 I do believe purpose is a massive, powerful force and all of our marketing 438 00:28:41.869 --> 00:28:44.950 in the future must have an element of purpose in it, just because it 439 00:28:45.029 --> 00:28:48.750 focuses us on conversations past our product, I'm sort allows this to have a 440 00:28:48.829 --> 00:28:52.589 more human relationship or more honest relationship, pass just a product with our with 441 00:28:52.670 --> 00:28:55.630 our audience, when our market place. I don't know if I nitswer your 442 00:28:55.670 --> 00:28:57.980 question, man. That was that was a great, great pass the subtitle 443 00:28:59.099 --> 00:29:03.220 of smalls beautiful as economics, as if people matter mattered and and I love 444 00:29:03.299 --> 00:29:07.019 the way you see, you capture and summarize it there, and I agree 445 00:29:07.059 --> 00:29:08.140 with you on purpose. I see it more and more often. I think 446 00:29:08.140 --> 00:29:11.009 it's you know, one of the big, you know, consumer package goods 447 00:29:11.609 --> 00:29:15.730 conglomerates, was talking about how they're going to start folding some of their brands 448 00:29:15.769 --> 00:29:21.650 if they can't identify, I. A an authentic purpose that transcends like paper 449 00:29:21.769 --> 00:29:26.640 towels or toothbrushes or whatever else they're selling. You know they're going to start 450 00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:29.160 peeling off some of the brands and, you know, putting them off to 451 00:29:29.240 --> 00:29:33.359 market because purpose matters so much. I think it does. I'm probably abusing 452 00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:37.720 the word context here, but I think that purpose gives people some context for 453 00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:41.950 their participation with you and your product or your service, and I just advocate, 454 00:29:41.990 --> 00:29:45.990 and I'm sure you would too. Is that that that it is sincere 455 00:29:45.269 --> 00:29:49.109 is a big deal. I think you know anything about you know a lot 456 00:29:49.190 --> 00:29:55.140 of the shallow surface layer, you know, flimsy purpose stuff to people just 457 00:29:55.259 --> 00:29:57.380 staple up over the front of the store or whatever. You know, storefront 458 00:29:57.380 --> 00:30:02.660 or whatever as a as a concept falls away really quickly. So it needs 459 00:30:02.660 --> 00:30:06.940 to be sincere and authentic to the core of the business. I think it's 460 00:30:06.980 --> 00:30:10.329 one of the things for us here at bombomb we were very clear on what 461 00:30:10.410 --> 00:30:11.609 we were trying to do in the world and the way that we wanted to 462 00:30:11.730 --> 00:30:15.569 operate from the beginning. I don't know that it I don't know that it 463 00:30:15.089 --> 00:30:18.930 came it has bled through as much to our customers as much as maybe it 464 00:30:19.009 --> 00:30:22.680 could, should would in the future, but I think having it early and 465 00:30:22.759 --> 00:30:26.920 having it be clear and shared is a really big deal. Purposes purposes a 466 00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:30.799 thing we could probably do twenty minutes on purpose, but I'm going to try 467 00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:32.960 to let you get back to your date or just a little bit. I 468 00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:36.910 got a couple other topics for you. One of them you're kind enough to 469 00:30:37.309 --> 00:30:41.029 to review and say some Nice things about, a book that I coauthored with 470 00:30:41.109 --> 00:30:44.349 Steve Passinelli, my good friend and team member here. It's called Rehumanize Your 471 00:30:44.390 --> 00:30:47.670 Business. I think it time it does what you were talking about, which 472 00:30:47.750 --> 00:30:52.019 we tried to put the human at the center of of video in particular, 473 00:30:52.180 --> 00:30:53.779 and so I just love for you to share your thoughts. And you know, 474 00:30:53.819 --> 00:30:57.579 I saw you put up a linkedin post recently about increased consumption of video 475 00:30:57.619 --> 00:31:03.099 projected into the future. Talk a little bit about one to one video, 476 00:31:03.299 --> 00:31:06.809 this this human to human video, as well as just video in general. 477 00:31:06.849 --> 00:31:10.569 Anything you got on video, I'd love to hear it. Yeah, so, 478 00:31:10.890 --> 00:31:14.490 yeah, posted this morning actually. So doing my research on my twenty 479 00:31:14.529 --> 00:31:17.809 future of marketing. Two Thousand and twenty put out a future of every year 480 00:31:17.930 --> 00:31:21.359 about marketing. Then one of the big things is, you know, just 481 00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:25.200 going out about five years. What we need to be really cognizant of is 482 00:31:25.759 --> 00:31:29.359 g and more free time. So one of the things is as five he 483 00:31:29.480 --> 00:31:32.680 comes about and as we start to offload more things to Iot, we're going 484 00:31:32.680 --> 00:31:36.269 to start to open up more free time we vote for free time every year. 485 00:31:36.309 --> 00:31:38.109 Since, you know, digitals become a thing, it's going to come 486 00:31:38.150 --> 00:31:41.750 even greater. So I talked about you know, if we go five to 487 00:31:41.829 --> 00:31:44.309 ten out we start to get into this self driving cars. Well, what 488 00:31:44.710 --> 00:31:47.859 do we then do with two hours of free time every day? Right? 489 00:31:48.059 --> 00:31:51.859 Well, we're going to consume content, and one of the most consumable pieces 490 00:31:51.900 --> 00:31:55.259 of content with five g will be video, and it's we start looking at, 491 00:31:55.380 --> 00:31:56.859 you know, how they're going to break down short form, long form, 492 00:31:57.019 --> 00:32:01.289 live video. And then you talk about one to one. So you 493 00:32:01.329 --> 00:32:04.170 know, one, two, one. To me, and I've gotten some 494 00:32:04.289 --> 00:32:07.890 flak from this, but to me one to one was an idea of one 495 00:32:07.049 --> 00:32:10.730 brand creating one message for one individual. But I think we need to really 496 00:32:10.769 --> 00:32:14.490 think about is human to human. How do we can it's one human to 497 00:32:14.529 --> 00:32:17.839 another human and do so at scale? And the definition of personal for me 498 00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:23.920 in the future is it personalized. It's not how personalized, how customized can 499 00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:28.799 I make a mass experience to an individual? It's how human cannot deliver that, 500 00:32:28.920 --> 00:32:30.869 how personal cannot deliver that experience. So you know, if it is 501 00:32:30.990 --> 00:32:35.390 one individual creating a video and setting it to another, that is one piece 502 00:32:35.509 --> 00:32:38.549 for one individual, that is, one human talking to another, instantly consumable, 503 00:32:38.670 --> 00:32:42.190 instantly engaging. Yeah, and I think it's going to be a new 504 00:32:42.269 --> 00:32:45.900 format. It is a new format already I'm in videos, very engaging. 505 00:32:45.019 --> 00:32:49.420 Me like videos. So you know, yeah, I'm all pro on video. 506 00:32:49.579 --> 00:32:51.700 I have been for a long time and I think, you know, 507 00:32:51.819 --> 00:32:54.059 as time moves on, we're going to use video more and more just because 508 00:32:54.099 --> 00:32:58.809 it's easy, you know. Yeah, I love that you drove the distinction 509 00:32:58.970 --> 00:33:04.369 between one to one and human to human or or you know, this idea 510 00:33:04.450 --> 00:33:07.690 that yeah, it because it speaks to and I love that use the language 511 00:33:07.690 --> 00:33:09.569 around purse. I the line that I drew. I wrote a blog post 512 00:33:09.650 --> 00:33:15.480 maybe two or three years ago about personal versus personalized in the context of video, 513 00:33:15.559 --> 00:33:19.160 and this idea that, to me, personalized is dear first name, 514 00:33:19.599 --> 00:33:23.160 because you addtion with a product name. Yeah, yeah, it's just, 515 00:33:23.400 --> 00:33:28.390 you know, variable stuff versus truly personal is. Hey, matt, I 516 00:33:28.509 --> 00:33:31.269 just so appreciate your time. You know, in our conversation today you made 517 00:33:31.269 --> 00:33:35.109 me think about this thing that I had read about. I'd read your work 518 00:33:35.150 --> 00:33:37.109 on it, I'd heard you speak about it, but I think about a 519 00:33:37.150 --> 00:33:40.539 completely differently now and just so value it right. This, this truly personal 520 00:33:42.019 --> 00:33:46.339 experience, is not a variable data slug. And it's interesting because, you 521 00:33:46.420 --> 00:33:51.619 know, the other background theme on it is scalable versus unscalable. I think 522 00:33:51.619 --> 00:33:53.099 a lot of people look at it they say, Oh, this doesn't scale, 523 00:33:53.140 --> 00:33:57.769 and then it just begs this. It begs your original question. I 524 00:33:58.009 --> 00:34:01.369 like, is it better if we can make it slightly, slightly, incrementally 525 00:34:01.410 --> 00:34:07.490 better by inserting better variables into these things? Versus, can you create a 526 00:34:07.569 --> 00:34:10.559 truly personal experience? And what is the value of that, especially in the 527 00:34:10.679 --> 00:34:15.119 face of all this noise? Yeah, no, and I totally agree in 528 00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:17.519 scale is the big thing and that's why. So one of the foundational element 529 00:34:17.639 --> 00:34:22.239 is is a technological foundation for context marking, for all marking in the future. 530 00:34:22.280 --> 00:34:24.269 Without technology, there is no way to scale these concepts or ideas. 531 00:34:24.389 --> 00:34:28.750 Right. With technology we know exactly who to talk to, what human connect 532 00:34:28.789 --> 00:34:31.670 with them, whether that's an employee and advocate, a sales personal marketer. 533 00:34:31.989 --> 00:34:36.389 Well, we we don't exactly who to connect, what conversation have and then 534 00:34:36.469 --> 00:34:38.380 how to guide them to the next steps and it becomes a scalable system. 535 00:34:38.780 --> 00:34:42.900 Right, we're marketing is no longer we're sitting in board rooms coming up with 536 00:34:42.980 --> 00:34:46.500 campaigns to push to the masses. Rather we create webs of systematic automations than 537 00:34:46.539 --> 00:34:50.900 we manage these automations which are connecting us right, and that's making the best 538 00:34:50.940 --> 00:34:53.329 use of our time and I think that's the biggest things. And you know, 539 00:34:53.409 --> 00:34:55.650 we haven't talked about this. One word of Agile. That's the other 540 00:34:55.690 --> 00:35:00.010 aspect of scale. Right, since the technological aspect of what does it take 541 00:35:00.010 --> 00:35:02.489 technique, technically to skip, there's the other of what changes to our processes 542 00:35:02.530 --> 00:35:06.090 have to take on. Well, we have to take on new building process. 543 00:35:06.489 --> 00:35:07.039 I mean, and I think that, you know, is one of 544 00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:10.000 the things I love to talk about, is the concept of we were all 545 00:35:10.119 --> 00:35:14.920 trained on the assembly line, right, nineteen, with the nineteen eighteen. 546 00:35:14.960 --> 00:35:17.159 Henry Ford comes out with the assembly line and that's how we think about building, 547 00:35:17.159 --> 00:35:22.389 that's how we structure our organizations and silent organizations. The building process is 548 00:35:22.469 --> 00:35:25.989 the waterfall process or extrapolation of the assembly line. But now we have instant 549 00:35:27.070 --> 00:35:30.230 feedback and so we must move to a new model, which is Agile, 550 00:35:30.269 --> 00:35:32.110 which is rapid testing. Right. You know, listen to Morgan Brown, 551 00:35:32.349 --> 00:35:35.309 Shawn and Ellis. You know, growth, hacking, you know, you 552 00:35:35.780 --> 00:35:37.780 it's rapid innovation. This is what we're talking about, and so I think 553 00:35:37.780 --> 00:35:42.300 that's the other aspect of scale. It's in those two combinations have to happen 554 00:35:42.340 --> 00:35:45.940 together and then these things become possible. By then we're not looking, we're 555 00:35:45.980 --> 00:35:46.659 no longer saying, all right, how do we just, you know, 556 00:35:46.739 --> 00:35:50.809 create the right message of the right person the right time, if you know, 557 00:35:50.889 --> 00:35:53.050 how do we connect the right human to have the correct experience, produce 558 00:35:53.090 --> 00:35:58.010 a correct experience in contact for that moment? And I think that's where we 559 00:35:58.050 --> 00:36:01.210 have to go. I love it. It's just bridging it to the truly 560 00:36:01.289 --> 00:36:07.760 personal moments. It's it's using technology and processes to put people to be in 561 00:36:07.800 --> 00:36:10.320 their best position to be of highest value doing things that machines can do, 562 00:36:10.760 --> 00:36:15.480 and you let the machines do all the things that machines do best. Sales 563 00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:17.829 Force, you've been there for quite a while. How do you like? 564 00:36:17.989 --> 00:36:22.349 You Start as an evangelist, your principle of marketing insight. It's like, 565 00:36:22.789 --> 00:36:25.989 what is your Daytoday, week till week, month to month. Relationship to, 566 00:36:27.670 --> 00:36:30.070 you know, the sales force mothership, like, how do you plug 567 00:36:30.150 --> 00:36:32.820 in? Are you just a man about the world whose work is supported by 568 00:36:32.900 --> 00:36:37.300 sales force. Like, what's the working relationship there? If for cool job, 569 00:36:37.900 --> 00:36:42.460 some job, by the way. Yeah, totally, I agree. 570 00:36:42.579 --> 00:36:45.900 Thank you. Yeah, so I actually started out in sales for a little 571 00:36:45.900 --> 00:36:50.849 start up called part ot and I was the second salesperson employeed. Thirteen we 572 00:36:50.929 --> 00:36:53.130 grew that company up. We got a choir back that target then acquired by 573 00:36:53.170 --> 00:36:58.010 sales for side. Transition into the thought leadership rolled during that process, just 574 00:36:58.090 --> 00:37:01.320 because that's the side I really was passionate about. So plugging into I really 575 00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:05.199 am mutilize in a couple of different ways, as a lot of us are 576 00:37:05.239 --> 00:37:07.559 utilize. You know, it's customer meetings, it's going in and talking with 577 00:37:07.599 --> 00:37:10.760 large brands, talking about what their future looks like, giving a presentation to 578 00:37:10.840 --> 00:37:15.789 them, you know, doing customer dinners, helping with research, as well 579 00:37:15.829 --> 00:37:19.829 as the third party speaking engagements in evangelizing the brand on stage all across the 580 00:37:19.869 --> 00:37:22.349 world. Right. So people really see us as they're not just the technology 581 00:37:22.429 --> 00:37:25.590 provider, they're also someone who is at the forefront of the field that they're, 582 00:37:25.630 --> 00:37:29.869 you know, up selling to so that we can produce you know really, 583 00:37:30.260 --> 00:37:34.539 you know far leading future leading thoughts and help guide businesses forward, not 584 00:37:34.659 --> 00:37:37.579 just by the technology that we create but also, you know, the theory 585 00:37:37.659 --> 00:37:42.739 that they need to utilize to succeed with. Yeah, I I was in 586 00:37:42.820 --> 00:37:47.530 a session at dream force with a couple researchers who were working on essentially future 587 00:37:47.610 --> 00:37:52.170 of work, which may be about you and like, how many of you 588 00:37:54.090 --> 00:38:00.280 different topic areas are there inside an organization like sales force? It's hard to 589 00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:04.239 count, you know, when you start getting into I have a team. 590 00:38:04.280 --> 00:38:06.639 I sit on the market strap, a G teams. I'm not tides and 591 00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:10.239 actual cloud product. I'm a side, separate entity. But then each products 592 00:38:10.280 --> 00:38:14.030 have their own evangelists, have their own research, you know. So we 593 00:38:14.110 --> 00:38:16.869 have it very distributed across the organization. But all my team, there's probably 594 00:38:16.869 --> 00:38:21.269 about ten of us, each has a different role. So we know IOT 595 00:38:21.909 --> 00:38:25.030 future of work. What the customer, sales and marketing? You've got a 596 00:38:25.070 --> 00:38:28.900 bunch of different ones that are rolled up into that kind and I really focus 597 00:38:29.019 --> 00:38:31.699 on the future of marketing. Awesome and it shows you're doing a lot of 598 00:38:31.739 --> 00:38:36.860 great work around. It's really fun and interesting. Last question, another linkedin 599 00:38:36.940 --> 00:38:39.300 post of yours. This is just interesting to me and highly consequential and it 600 00:38:39.420 --> 00:38:43.929 seems very relevant to people who maybe haven't noticed. But you know that that 601 00:38:43.969 --> 00:38:46.250 chrome is planning to kill off third party cookies by two thousand and twenty two. 602 00:38:47.449 --> 00:38:51.690 Yeah, what? What? What do you think is the motivation and 603 00:38:51.809 --> 00:38:55.320 what are the implications? I mean the motivation easy, if they don't do 604 00:38:55.519 --> 00:38:59.480 it, there's going to be government regulation that's going to regulate them to do 605 00:38:59.559 --> 00:39:01.719 it anyways. So I mean it's they're just trying to get ahead of the 606 00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:05.599 boat, right. So that's why they're doing it. Right, privacy, 607 00:39:05.679 --> 00:39:09.349 individual privacy, customer privacy. Third party cookies really aren't great for individual privacy. 608 00:39:09.670 --> 00:39:13.070 Then a lot of the people who created the Internet believe that they've gone 609 00:39:13.070 --> 00:39:16.230 run. They've run them Mak and we've used them to really do the consumer 610 00:39:16.309 --> 00:39:20.909 and disservice to the pretty much everyone's going away with them. So, you 611 00:39:20.989 --> 00:39:22.869 know, five years out we should really be thinking about a post third party 612 00:39:22.909 --> 00:39:25.619 cookie world. That doesn't mean post first and second, it means post third. 613 00:39:25.980 --> 00:39:30.099 So we're going to figure out new ways of attribution, new ways of 614 00:39:30.219 --> 00:39:34.940 reporting, new ways of tracking, new way of engagement. But the good 615 00:39:35.019 --> 00:39:37.139 news is that it's longest. You know, a lot of those things were 616 00:39:37.179 --> 00:39:43.889 just for you know, Third Party advertising, programmatic, advised retargeting and in 617 00:39:43.969 --> 00:39:45.769 the attribution of those things. So, you know, we're just going to 618 00:39:45.769 --> 00:39:49.130 be a new world and I think, you know that's really when, if 619 00:39:49.170 --> 00:39:52.570 you double down on contact in that notion, right, move past just I 620 00:39:52.610 --> 00:39:54.440 can push button and advertise to anybody. So now we need to really focus 621 00:39:54.519 --> 00:39:59.079 on how do we connect one human to another human and do so and first 622 00:39:59.119 --> 00:40:01.320 and second party ways. We're really going to build a much strong and more 623 00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:05.960 durable brand with better data. That's, you know, regulation proof for you 624 00:40:06.039 --> 00:40:08.070 know, zero first and second party data is regulation proof. You know, 625 00:40:08.150 --> 00:40:12.389 we have permission to use that, which once again put permission at the forefront. 626 00:40:12.750 --> 00:40:15.190 You know, when we do ask for permission, we build a different 627 00:40:15.190 --> 00:40:17.469 type of trust. We build a deeper trust for our individuals and helps us 628 00:40:17.469 --> 00:40:21.659 break through. So yeah, so you know, it's a PRONOCON right. 629 00:40:21.659 --> 00:40:22.300 So we're not going to be able to do the same things that used to 630 00:40:22.340 --> 00:40:25.099 do, but I think will be better for everybody moving forward. Yeah, 631 00:40:25.300 --> 00:40:30.659 so good. I just had a flash there of how how long ago Seth 632 00:40:30.739 --> 00:40:35.059 Guns Permission Marketing was written, but how far we have not come in some 633 00:40:35.219 --> 00:40:37.210 ways against it, you know, just the spirit of it in general, 634 00:40:37.289 --> 00:40:40.530 and so it's interesting, as I think is I think about good brands and 635 00:40:42.329 --> 00:40:45.690 good product, services and experience. It really it just a lot of it 636 00:40:45.809 --> 00:40:50.320 comes down to being a great human being that other people want to be around. 637 00:40:50.320 --> 00:40:52.440 It's like those qualities are the qualities you want to provide such that you 638 00:40:52.920 --> 00:40:55.559 people are attracted to you and they feel good around you and they feel good 639 00:40:55.599 --> 00:41:00.599 about themselves. And Yeah, it's good. Thanks for that passage. Gay 640 00:41:00.599 --> 00:41:02.360 Man, this is been awesome. I really appreciate the work that you're doing 641 00:41:02.440 --> 00:41:08.230 a enjoy you personally and before we go, I want to give you the 642 00:41:08.349 --> 00:41:13.989 chance to bring to life one of our core values here at bombomb, which 643 00:41:13.989 --> 00:41:15.989 is relationships. And so I like to give you the chance to think or 644 00:41:16.070 --> 00:41:20.659 mentioned someone who's had a positive impact on your life or career and to give 645 00:41:20.659 --> 00:41:23.300 a nod to a brand or a company that you really appreciate for the experience 646 00:41:23.300 --> 00:41:28.460 state provide for you as a customer. All right, yeah, so first 647 00:41:28.539 --> 00:41:30.699 I'd like to give a shout out to DOC searles. You mentioned them earlier, 648 00:41:30.739 --> 00:41:36.250 author Clue Train Manifesto. Doc is definitely been very helpful. Either reach 649 00:41:36.329 --> 00:41:38.130 out to is definitely helped guide me, helps a lot with the book and 650 00:41:38.170 --> 00:41:42.250 the in terms of, you know, just questions and just someone that's been 651 00:41:42.329 --> 00:41:45.929 great. I love the work that he produces. He's an awesome human and 652 00:41:45.050 --> 00:41:47.719 he's definitely helped me out a lot. So shout out to doc. And 653 00:41:47.840 --> 00:41:52.920 then a company I highly respect and I think create a great customer experience for 654 00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:54.599 me as well as others, is with you. They're probably one of my 655 00:41:54.679 --> 00:42:00.360 favorites. I've known them personally for going on ten years. I'll always love 656 00:42:00.440 --> 00:42:04.190 the individuals that they hire, the culture that they put together, the marketing 657 00:42:04.230 --> 00:42:07.550 that they put out, the software that they create and the experience just in 658 00:42:07.710 --> 00:42:12.550 general of everything that they do. It's very unique, very specific and it's 659 00:42:12.590 --> 00:42:17.460 a great example of how culture and how leadership really does create a culture and 660 00:42:17.539 --> 00:42:22.260 if it's not at the executive level, it's very difficult to create such a 661 00:42:22.340 --> 00:42:25.579 positive and unique culture inside of organization if the executives don't have it. So 662 00:42:25.699 --> 00:42:30.090 that was said, I'll go with those two awesome and that's a reflection of 663 00:42:30.090 --> 00:42:32.730 another kind of background theme on the show, which is that a great employee 664 00:42:32.730 --> 00:42:38.289 experience begets or is it necessary precursor to a great customer experience, and culture 665 00:42:38.369 --> 00:42:42.010 is one of the words that kind of capture some of that essence. We 666 00:42:42.090 --> 00:42:47.159 already talked about pre ordering the context marketing revolution on Amazon. I mentioned your 667 00:42:47.440 --> 00:42:52.199 someone great to follow on Linkedin. How else could someone follow up with you 668 00:42:52.280 --> 00:42:54.599 and your work if you're if people enjoyed this conversation, they liked the ideas, 669 00:42:54.639 --> 00:42:58.750 they want to go deeper, where would you send people? Yes, 670 00:42:58.989 --> 00:43:00.389 I mean two things. One, and make sure either follow me on linked 671 00:43:00.429 --> 00:43:05.030 in or twitter. I published their on a pretty weekly basis. If you 672 00:43:05.110 --> 00:43:07.750 haven't listened to the podcast and want to kind of get a jump on with 673 00:43:07.829 --> 00:43:09.230 the book, talks about it. They make sure you listen to the electronic 674 00:43:09.309 --> 00:43:14.260 propaganda society and it definitely please pre order the book. I think you'll enjoy 675 00:43:14.260 --> 00:43:19.579 it and really the goal is to really help marketers. Not necessarily help marketers 676 00:43:19.619 --> 00:43:22.500 as much, but help markers make the case to their executives of why we 677 00:43:22.539 --> 00:43:24.699 must change you go down this different path, and that's really the focus of 678 00:43:24.739 --> 00:43:29.650 the book is to help you have the firepower to make these changes internally in 679 00:43:29.730 --> 00:43:34.570 your organization. Really good, because it's big, it's scary, it's revolutionary, 680 00:43:35.250 --> 00:43:38.170 and so I think being better informed, better equipped to make these arguments 681 00:43:38.210 --> 00:43:44.800 and to make these observations internally and even collaborating across teams and building consensus around 682 00:43:44.800 --> 00:43:47.760 some of these ideas. So I hope the book delivers on your mission, 683 00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:52.599 because I think we'll be enjoying our lives and businesses a little bit more when 684 00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:55.789 we start moving more in that direction. Thanks so much for your time today 685 00:43:55.789 --> 00:44:00.909 at really really enjoyed it and hope you have a great week of since like 686 00:44:00.030 --> 00:44:06.110 so much for the chance. I hope you're thinking a little bit differently about 687 00:44:06.190 --> 00:44:09.300 your go to market strategy after listening to that conversation with Matt. If you 688 00:44:09.380 --> 00:44:14.059 want to check out some video clips from the episode and get links to some 689 00:44:14.219 --> 00:44:16.579 of those great books that we talked about, you can get that in a 690 00:44:16.619 --> 00:44:24.489 whole lot more by visiting bombombcom forward slash podcast. That's bombombcom slash podcast. 691 00:44:25.010 --> 00:44:30.050 My name is Ethan Butte and thanks again for listening to the BE TOB growth 692 00:44:30.130 --> 00:44:37.449 show. Hey, everybody, Logan with sweetfish here. If you're a regular 693 00:44:37.530 --> 00:44:39.880 listener of BB growth, you know that I'm one of the cohosts of the 694 00:44:39.960 --> 00:44:44.320 show, but you may not know that I also head up the sales team 695 00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:47.000 here is sweetfish. So for those of you in sales or sales offs, 696 00:44:47.159 --> 00:44:52.119 I wanted to take a second to share something that's made us insanely more efficient 697 00:44:52.199 --> 00:44:55.190 lately. Our team has been using lead Iq for the past few months and 698 00:44:55.349 --> 00:45:00.909 what used to take us four hours gathering contact data now takes us only one, 699 00:45:00.989 --> 00:45:05.590 or seventy five percent more efficient. We're able to move faster without bound 700 00:45:05.630 --> 00:45:10.219 prospecting and organizing our campaigns is so much easier than before. I'd highly suggest 701 00:45:10.300 --> 00:45:14.579 you guys check out lead Iq as well. You can check them out at 702 00:45:14.619 --> 00:45:19.860 lead iqcom. That's ee ad iqcom.