#CX 43: The 3 Components of Trust w/ Cory Scheer

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:09.230 Most organizations start with let's increase the value proposition. You know how we going 2 00:00:09.269 --> 00:00:12.550 to do this? With challenge in this particular area. How do we maintain 3 00:00:12.589 --> 00:00:16.789 our value proposition? It really does not start with value. At starts with 4 00:00:16.989 --> 00:00:22.620 trust. A relationship with the right referral partner could be a game changer for 5 00:00:22.780 --> 00:00:27.420 any BEDB company. So what if you could reverse engineer these relationships at a 6 00:00:27.539 --> 00:00:33.219 moment's notice? Start a podcast, invite potential referral partners to be guests on 7 00:00:33.299 --> 00:00:38.810 your show and grow your referral network faster than ever. Learn more at sweet 8 00:00:38.850 --> 00:00:48.210 fish Mediacom. You're listening to be tob growth, a daily podcast for B 9 00:00:48.329 --> 00:00:52.640 TOB leaders. We've interviewed names you've probably heard before, like Gary bannerd truck 10 00:00:52.679 --> 00:00:56.560 and Simon Senek, but you've probably never heard from the majority of our guests. 11 00:00:57.200 --> 00:01:00.200 That's because the bulk of our interviews aren't with professional speakers and authors. 12 00:01:00.759 --> 00:01:04.590 Most of our guests are in the trenches leading sales and marketing teams. They're 13 00:01:04.629 --> 00:01:11.109 implementing strategy, they're experimenting with tactics. They're building the fastest growing BB companies 14 00:01:11.150 --> 00:01:14.310 in the world. My name is James Carberry. I'm the founder of sweet 15 00:01:14.310 --> 00:01:17.950 fish media, a podcast agency for BB brands, and I'm also one of 16 00:01:17.989 --> 00:01:21.939 the CO hosts of this show. When we're not interviewing sales and marketing leaders, 17 00:01:22.140 --> 00:01:25.700 you'll hear stories from behind the scenes of our own business. Will share 18 00:01:25.739 --> 00:01:29.099 the ups and downs of our journey as we attempt to take over the world. 19 00:01:29.819 --> 00:01:38.329 Just getting well, maybe let's get into the show. We all know 20 00:01:38.489 --> 00:01:45.129 how important it is to build and maintain trust in every single relationship, both 21 00:01:45.290 --> 00:01:49.680 personal and professional, but a lot of the talk around trust is soft, 22 00:01:49.319 --> 00:01:56.000 theoretical, even intangible. But on this episode of the CX series of the 23 00:01:56.040 --> 00:02:00.280 B Tob Growth Show, we're going to get practical. My name is Ethan 24 00:02:00.359 --> 00:02:05.829 Butte and you're about to learn a couple very helpful frameworks to build trust more 25 00:02:05.909 --> 00:02:09.430 effectively, not just through your relationships with people, but also through the policies 26 00:02:09.509 --> 00:02:15.590 that we use that affect our customers and the customer experience, that affect our 27 00:02:15.710 --> 00:02:21.860 team members and affect the employee experience. Enjoy this conversation on trust, value 28 00:02:22.020 --> 00:02:27.099 and loyalty here on the B tob growth show. Hey, welcome back to 29 00:02:27.180 --> 00:02:30.490 the customer experience podcast. Today we're talking trust. How to cultivate it within 30 00:02:30.569 --> 00:02:34.770 our organizations and with our customers. I think it's one of those things that 31 00:02:35.330 --> 00:02:38.169 is easy to talk about but we might not be talking about the same thing, 32 00:02:38.210 --> 00:02:40.129 or it's easy to take for granted and lose sight of the fact of 33 00:02:40.210 --> 00:02:44.719 how fundamentally important it is and that it's a skill and a value that we 34 00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:47.240 need to be building between each other. And so you're about to get some 35 00:02:47.400 --> 00:02:53.919 practical, evidence based ways to strengthen trust through relational exchanges. And our guest 36 00:02:53.840 --> 00:02:59.590 is super dynamic. He's been the business director at a Whitewater Rafting Company out 37 00:02:59.590 --> 00:03:01.990 here in Colorado, where I live. He's been the vice president of strategic 38 00:03:02.069 --> 00:03:07.270 partnerships at the HYM say of Greater Kansas City, he's been the dean of 39 00:03:07.310 --> 00:03:10.990 Admission at William Jewel College and presently he's the director of Church and community engagement 40 00:03:12.030 --> 00:03:15.620 at Pleasant Valley Baptist Church in Liberty, Missouri. He earned a bachelor of 41 00:03:15.740 --> 00:03:23.020 science and speech, communication and community recreation and executive MBA and a doctorate in 42 00:03:23.180 --> 00:03:28.129 educational leadership and Policy Analysis. And, as a fun fact, last detail 43 00:03:28.169 --> 00:03:31.610 here, he's completed twenty eight marathons, including New York, Boston and Chicago. 44 00:03:31.689 --> 00:03:37.849 Three times, Corey Shear. Welcome to the customer experience podcast. Thank 45 00:03:37.930 --> 00:03:39.129 you, Ethan. It's awesome to be on here with you. I really 46 00:03:39.129 --> 00:03:43.560 appreciate the just the chance to connect. Yeah, I think you know the 47 00:03:43.639 --> 00:03:45.919 work you've done, in the range of work that you've done. You know 48 00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:49.840 obviously trust, being the subject of your dissertation, and probably a lot. 49 00:03:49.919 --> 00:03:54.199 It's beyond that. It's so deeply entwined, I imagine, in so many 50 00:03:54.240 --> 00:03:59.590 of the various roles and situations you found yourself in, and so I'm looking 51 00:03:59.629 --> 00:04:01.870 to really get into all of that in a formal land, inform a way, 52 00:04:02.469 --> 00:04:05.870 and I typically start with asking you to find customer experience, which we 53 00:04:05.949 --> 00:04:09.990 will do. But first I want to ask you do you have any brand 54 00:04:10.099 --> 00:04:14.979 loyalties around running shoes? So I guarantee you put on a lot of miles, 55 00:04:15.139 --> 00:04:17.379 like probably put as many miles on your shoes as some people do on 56 00:04:17.459 --> 00:04:21.540 their cars. And so what's your running shoes situation, because I run to 57 00:04:21.740 --> 00:04:27.370 not nearly as much as you like. What's your loyalty situation there stuff? 58 00:04:27.490 --> 00:04:32.089 I HAVE AE years brand loyalty to brooks running shoes and there's one particular model. 59 00:04:32.129 --> 00:04:36.490 It's the glycerin running shoe and it's the widest Su's the double e, 60 00:04:36.810 --> 00:04:42.519 and I have I have run up those shoes for probably three or four years 61 00:04:42.639 --> 00:04:46.600 now and I had one blister in all of my races. So before that 62 00:04:46.680 --> 00:04:49.040 I was I was running with Nikes and I thought, well, everyone runs 63 00:04:49.079 --> 00:04:55.709 with nikes because they're they're everywhere and it look great. But I realized after 64 00:04:56.189 --> 00:05:00.670 I was getting blisters nearly every other long run I just had to mix switch 65 00:05:00.709 --> 00:05:04.629 and so I got fitted appropriately switched over to brooks and the shoes, the 66 00:05:04.750 --> 00:05:09.420 glycerins are kind of their high end model. So they're a hundred fifty bucks 67 00:05:09.459 --> 00:05:12.540 a pop and after four hundred and fifty miles got a rotate your shoes. 68 00:05:12.660 --> 00:05:15.819 So they're a little bit more money, but the I'm willing to pay for 69 00:05:15.899 --> 00:05:20.850 the noblisters. They've been awesome shoes. How about yourself? I run in 70 00:05:20.850 --> 00:05:25.689 the Brooks Ghost, which is kind of like it's also a neutral, lightweight 71 00:05:25.769 --> 00:05:29.689 shoe, as is the glycerin, and it's only, I think, the 72 00:05:29.769 --> 00:05:31.569 new models, a hundred thirty bucks, just like it's like one step down, 73 00:05:31.689 --> 00:05:34.089 but same thing as you. I think. I was like, okay, 74 00:05:34.170 --> 00:05:36.759 I am kind of serious about this not as serious as you. So 75 00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:41.879 I went to a specialty store. I put on six or eight different brands. 76 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:46.199 It was definitely the right one for me and just fun fact for everyone 77 00:05:46.279 --> 00:05:49.750 listening. Corey came to me through a previous podcast Gass Kurt bartolage, who 78 00:05:49.870 --> 00:05:54.350 talked about how to protect your brand. He's that, he's he's a brand 79 00:05:54.430 --> 00:05:57.350 builder, but even more he's a brand conservationists, like how do we prot 80 00:05:57.509 --> 00:06:00.589 teched what's good about our brands? And so that's a past episode you can 81 00:06:00.629 --> 00:06:02.949 listen to. You can check it out at Bombombcom, slash podcast or in 82 00:06:02.990 --> 00:06:06.899 your favorite podcast player. But I've also had Rachel Ostrand or on from Brooks 83 00:06:06.939 --> 00:06:11.459 running. She's the director of runner experience, so I had her on as 84 00:06:11.500 --> 00:06:14.259 well. After we hang this up, I'll send you that link and if 85 00:06:14.300 --> 00:06:16.220 you're listening, I'll send that to you, cory, but if to listeners 86 00:06:16.459 --> 00:06:18.569 again, you can find that out. Both of those are in the first 87 00:06:18.569 --> 00:06:21.769 ten episodes of the show. So definitely go back and fish out some cool 88 00:06:21.810 --> 00:06:27.370 sounding brands and people and topics, because we've been doing these conversations and each 89 00:06:27.449 --> 00:06:30.769 one of them has their own magic to them. I'm super glad I asked 90 00:06:30.850 --> 00:06:32.759 that Brooks is an awesome company. Actually visited them too when I was in 91 00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:38.120 Seattle or we. I mean we it's like a monument to Brooks. In 92 00:06:38.199 --> 00:06:42.480 my closet I have stacks of old running shoes which turn into lonnoing shoes. 93 00:06:42.519 --> 00:06:45.920 They are the most comfortable on gooing shoes. But I love Brooks. I'll 94 00:06:45.959 --> 00:06:48.269 be a champion from them for a long time, not a running champion, 95 00:06:48.389 --> 00:06:54.870 a brand champion. Sure, your champion, your champion within your own circle 96 00:06:55.069 --> 00:06:58.069 of influence there. So let's go. Let's go to the formal open like 97 00:06:58.230 --> 00:07:01.379 how when I see customer experience, what kind of thoughts? Are Feelings, 98 00:07:01.420 --> 00:07:04.420 are words? Does that conjure for you? Yeah, it's you know, 99 00:07:04.899 --> 00:07:09.819 we were talking a little bit before we came on here and this the whole 100 00:07:09.899 --> 00:07:13.339 notion of when you walk away from Custford experience, it seems like you walk 101 00:07:13.379 --> 00:07:16.170 away with there's a residue that you walk away with. So you either have 102 00:07:16.290 --> 00:07:21.769 a really good residue or poor residue or you have no residue at all from 103 00:07:21.810 --> 00:07:26.089 that experience. And so the goal is that we want to try to interact 104 00:07:26.089 --> 00:07:30.720 with companies where we have a really positive residue and so I think we've probably 105 00:07:30.759 --> 00:07:33.319 all been in situations where you walk away and something in field right, or 106 00:07:33.399 --> 00:07:38.360 you can you can put your finger on something that was definitely what I would 107 00:07:38.360 --> 00:07:43.079 consider kind of violation and a brand violation or a trust violation. Or you 108 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:46.790 also have like I have with my brooks running shoes. Every single time I 109 00:07:46.910 --> 00:07:51.110 run in those shoes it's a really good experience and I don't have blisters, 110 00:07:51.310 --> 00:07:56.709 I have good experiences, my feet feel good and there's nothing better than putting 111 00:07:56.750 --> 00:08:00.220 on a brand new pair of brooks shoes for me and from my foot. 112 00:08:00.339 --> 00:08:05.779 But also just in regards to the customer experiences that we have had as a 113 00:08:05.819 --> 00:08:09.899 family with for kids, we have a lot of different opportunity to interact with 114 00:08:09.980 --> 00:08:16.170 different companies and so I sometimes my radar and my sensitivity to brand or customer 115 00:08:16.250 --> 00:08:20.850 experience. Sometimes it can actually be a little bit too sensitive because I'm in 116 00:08:20.009 --> 00:08:24.129 this work and I think about it quite a bit. Kurt actually and I 117 00:08:24.170 --> 00:08:28.199 we've had a lot of conversations around this and so but that residue, we 118 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:31.440 want that positive residue from our customer experiences that we can continue to build upon, 119 00:08:31.559 --> 00:08:35.480 because then we'll come back because we want more of that. Yeah, 120 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:39.240 love it. I like the language you use there. That is new language. 121 00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:41.950 I've asked now nearly fifty people that question. I've never gotten the same 122 00:08:43.029 --> 00:08:46.509 answer twice and typically I'll get some new layer like you've offered here, like 123 00:08:46.629 --> 00:08:52.309 new specific language about residues. Like it adds a tangibility to thinking about it. 124 00:08:52.350 --> 00:08:52.590 You know, a lot of people, a lot of us, will 125 00:08:52.590 --> 00:08:56.179 talk through our thoughts and definitions of customer experience. It doesn't seem as like 126 00:08:56.340 --> 00:09:01.059 tangible or visual. I I can see what's left, you know, after 127 00:09:01.139 --> 00:09:03.700 that exchange. So let's get let's get a little bit into the into the 128 00:09:03.740 --> 00:09:09.620 trust topic, because you have a special level of expertise here. Your dissertation 129 00:09:09.820 --> 00:09:15.169 was titled Trust, Value and loyalty in relational exchanges, and so I thought 130 00:09:15.169 --> 00:09:18.690 it'd be a fun exercise to maybe walk through each one of those. So 131 00:09:18.769 --> 00:09:22.210 let's break down that title again, the words for the folks that are listening. 132 00:09:22.250 --> 00:09:28.000 Trust value, loyalty and relational exchanges. So let's start with trust. 133 00:09:28.039 --> 00:09:31.639 I mean, obviously it's a big one, but you know, give me 134 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:35.519 a give me a medium size take on trust, like when you're talking about 135 00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:39.350 trust or when people who are doing formal, academic, quantified work, or 136 00:09:39.389 --> 00:09:43.950 how trust? What are exactly are we talking about? That's that's a huge 137 00:09:45.029 --> 00:09:48.309 question and such an important one for all of us who are in the market 138 00:09:48.429 --> 00:09:52.820 place, whether we're a formal leader with with a specific job title, or 139 00:09:54.059 --> 00:09:58.700 we have influence, whatever and whatever level of organized organizational leadership we have. 140 00:09:58.419 --> 00:10:03.500 So how I think about trust and really what I learned about trust through my 141 00:10:03.700 --> 00:10:07.889 doctoral work at Missoo. There were three authors of an article there. Their 142 00:10:07.889 --> 00:10:15.370 names are Sardeshmuk, sable and saying, and they wrote this article called trusty, 143 00:10:15.450 --> 00:10:18.009 loyalty and relational exchanges. And so what they did was they built this 144 00:10:18.450 --> 00:10:24.720 framework, this model around measuring value in relational exchanges. And so you in 145 00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:28.600 their learning they identified three things trust, value and loyalty, and they wanted 146 00:10:28.600 --> 00:10:35.679 to identify was there a linear relationship between the three, or was it just 147 00:10:35.750 --> 00:10:39.710 about trust or just about value or just about loyalty? And so then what 148 00:10:39.789 --> 00:10:43.509 they did was they offered some some structural elements of trust and how they identified 149 00:10:43.549 --> 00:10:48.909 it. As they said, okay, if we were to break trust down 150 00:10:48.029 --> 00:10:54.940 into two big buckets or two big areas. One bucket would be frontline employees 151 00:10:56.539 --> 00:11:01.059 and then one bucket would be policies and procedures. So if you think about 152 00:11:01.580 --> 00:11:05.889 the structure or the bones of trust, those are the two buckets that that 153 00:11:05.409 --> 00:11:09.889 that kind of live or comprised trust. So frontline employees and then policies and 154 00:11:09.970 --> 00:11:16.090 receiders, and then within each of those there are three primary components that they 155 00:11:16.169 --> 00:11:20.159 measured, and so they did this empirical research in the airline industry and in 156 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:26.080 the retail industry. There was another another author who did doctoral work in higher 157 00:11:26.120 --> 00:11:31.399 Ed. He did quantitative work and his last name is Carvalo, and then 158 00:11:31.480 --> 00:11:35.230 I did qualitative work and higher at, using the same theoretical framework. So 159 00:11:35.590 --> 00:11:39.110 but then frontline employees and policies and receiders the three elements that are critical. 160 00:11:39.590 --> 00:11:43.950 So these must all be accomplished in order for trust to be built. The 161 00:11:43.070 --> 00:11:46.620 first one is is that there has to be a level of components. So 162 00:11:46.740 --> 00:11:50.659 when you think about a frontline employee or a policy or procedure, it has 163 00:11:50.700 --> 00:11:56.860 to be competent, and that's that seems so obvious. But when something is 164 00:11:56.019 --> 00:12:01.259 not competent, like a policy or a friend unemployee, there's a brand and 165 00:12:01.419 --> 00:12:07.169 a trust violation that occurs. The second thing outside of competence is problem solving. 166 00:12:07.450 --> 00:12:09.730 So I think in terms of a maybe an employee that you've worked within 167 00:12:09.809 --> 00:12:13.730 the past, or a policy and procedure that you've interacted with in your current 168 00:12:13.809 --> 00:12:18.120 work, or a passwork where it has been not a problem solver but actually 169 00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:22.120 a problem creator, and the level of stress that that puts on the organization, 170 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:26.399 whether it's through people or policy, and so that is actually a structural 171 00:12:26.440 --> 00:12:33.429 element of trust where if there's more problem making them problem solving occurring, then 172 00:12:33.669 --> 00:12:37.470 trust is actually going to drop down. And then the final one is really, 173 00:12:37.629 --> 00:12:41.029 really an interesting one and it has to do with operational benevolence, meaning 174 00:12:41.629 --> 00:12:46.500 does that friend unemployee or does that policy put other people's needs before their own? 175 00:12:48.100 --> 00:12:52.580 So here's the interesting thing about the structure of trust. If you don't 176 00:12:52.620 --> 00:12:56.220 have all three of those, you'll actually start losing trust and that's challenging because 177 00:12:56.700 --> 00:13:01.529 you might have the most competent individual in your organization, but if they don't 178 00:13:01.529 --> 00:13:05.929 have problem solving skills or if they're not benevolent, they it's going to be 179 00:13:05.289 --> 00:13:09.330 very, very difficult. So if they are a problem solver but they have 180 00:13:09.409 --> 00:13:13.120 no benevolence and no competence, you're going to have issues and if they are 181 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:16.320 benevolent, they're a pushover it because they don't have any competence or problem solving 182 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:20.200 skills. That's going to be difficult. Same thing along the lines with with 183 00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:24.559 policies. I use the example of the office. So the office is like 184 00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:31.909 this amazing case study of organizational leadership and trust building and trust violation. So 185 00:13:31.549 --> 00:13:35.909 in the office you know Jim, he is like the most benevolent person. 186 00:13:37.110 --> 00:13:41.269 He's not a problem solver and he's definitely not very competent at his actual job, 187 00:13:41.389 --> 00:13:43.460 but he people love him and he loves everyone except for Dwight. So 188 00:13:45.059 --> 00:13:48.740 he's what I would call the hardest person to fire in an organization. Very 189 00:13:48.779 --> 00:13:52.019 Benevolent, low confidence, so problem solving. And then you've got Dwight, 190 00:13:52.059 --> 00:13:56.090 who was like the most competent salesperson. He can sell paper to a forest 191 00:13:56.129 --> 00:14:00.330 of trees right, but he has no problem solving skills and he's not benevolent 192 00:14:00.370 --> 00:14:03.490 at all. And Abel Michael, who is the supposed boss of the office. 193 00:14:03.850 --> 00:14:07.649 He's got none of the three. He has no confidence, no problem 194 00:14:07.690 --> 00:14:13.279 solving and absolutely no benevolence. But the beauty of that show is that it 195 00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:16.600 kind of flips the model and that's why I think it allows people to come 196 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:20.679 back to watch more, because the person in the office that actually demonstrates all 197 00:14:20.799 --> 00:14:24.309 three of those trust elements, benevolence, competence and problem solving, is Pam 198 00:14:26.350 --> 00:14:30.830 and she is the person that has technically the least amount of influence within the 199 00:14:30.870 --> 00:14:33.789 organization. However, she is the primary trust builder in that show. So 200 00:14:35.470 --> 00:14:37.909 that's kind of a good way for me to think about when we when we 201 00:14:37.029 --> 00:14:41.059 think about the structure of trust, and even in my own work, whether 202 00:14:41.100 --> 00:14:46.980 it's whether I'm working with people or I am developing a procedure around something, 203 00:14:46.019 --> 00:14:50.740 I can ask myself those questions very simply. Okay, is this the most 204 00:14:50.820 --> 00:14:54.809 competent approach? Is this the problem solving approach? And then, in my 205 00:14:54.929 --> 00:14:58.889 actually putting other people's needs before my own. So what these authors did, 206 00:14:58.649 --> 00:15:01.929 because they then took that and they said, okay, if we do have 207 00:15:01.049 --> 00:15:07.200 all of this trust, that will then naturally lead to increased value. So 208 00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:11.399 the value proposition naturally rises. Okay, so think about trust as the water 209 00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:16.279 coming into the pond and then value is the boat that's rising because there's trust 210 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:20.240 underneath it. And then the loyalty is the experience that people have as a 211 00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:24.429 results of trust. It's being built strong value proposition and then the loyalty. 212 00:15:24.909 --> 00:15:28.669 That's the residue that people want. They continue to come back to that. 213 00:15:28.830 --> 00:15:31.789 But if you're violating that in any of those three areas, problem solving, 214 00:15:31.830 --> 00:15:37.419 competence or benevolence, there's a natural tendency for trust to actually start to decline. 215 00:15:37.460 --> 00:15:41.779 And so that that mental framework has been so helpful for me because it 216 00:15:41.899 --> 00:15:46.460 allows me to compartmentalize the elements of trust. And so that's how I would 217 00:15:46.460 --> 00:15:50.850 define each each of those elements, and the most important thing is that trust 218 00:15:52.009 --> 00:15:56.929 has to occur before value, and then value it leads to loyalty. Most 219 00:15:56.970 --> 00:16:00.850 organizations start with let's increase the value proposition. How are we going to do 220 00:16:00.889 --> 00:16:03.480 it? You know how we going to do this with with a challenge in 221 00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:07.399 this particular area. How do we maintain our value proposition? It really does 222 00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:12.879 not start with value, it starts with trust. I would guess that price 223 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:17.840 starts to come into play when those pieces are broken, like when one of 224 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:19.350 them is missing or one of them is weak. By the way, that 225 00:16:19.549 --> 00:16:23.429 was amazing for those of you who are listening there's a thirty second back button 226 00:16:23.549 --> 00:16:29.629 for a reason. It's either a you got interrupted or be there is something 227 00:16:29.789 --> 00:16:33.500 that was so good or interesting or useful, such as your office analogy, 228 00:16:33.580 --> 00:16:37.340 which resonated very well with me and I'm sure will anyone who watch the show 229 00:16:37.460 --> 00:16:41.019 probably saw all of it instead of just a couple episodes. So feel free 230 00:16:41.659 --> 00:16:44.340 to bounce back and catch back up to us here. But I'm going to 231 00:16:44.419 --> 00:16:47.889 guess that, in the absence of trust, to do to any of those 232 00:16:47.929 --> 00:16:53.690 those three elemental failures or absences or even just weaknesses right strong as the weakest 233 00:16:53.690 --> 00:16:57.090 link, whatever, that price starts to come into plays. You Start Messing 234 00:16:57.169 --> 00:17:00.049 with the value prop it's like I would just lower the price and see if 235 00:17:00.129 --> 00:17:03.039 that will buy our way out of the fact that we can't build trust. 236 00:17:03.680 --> 00:17:08.839 That's exactly right. I mean, if you think about your greatest customers experience, 237 00:17:10.759 --> 00:17:15.990 environments that you've been a part of, you probably been loyal to that 238 00:17:15.109 --> 00:17:18.349 customer experience, you've gone back to it or you've had a really fun memories 239 00:17:18.789 --> 00:17:22.029 and you may have even said yourself, I can't believe I paid that much 240 00:17:22.069 --> 00:17:26.069 for that, but it was amazing, it was so worth it, and 241 00:17:26.309 --> 00:17:32.299 that's where trust is. It's critical and I think that it's very natural us, 242 00:17:32.460 --> 00:17:34.339 natural for us to think about trust. I think that we do all 243 00:17:34.500 --> 00:17:40.220 have trust radars, so to speak, where we so that in ful right. 244 00:17:40.339 --> 00:17:44.609 So one example that I use is if you ever have a grumpy selthwest 245 00:17:44.849 --> 00:17:49.609 airlines employee, that, yeah, I think it big of that doesn't feel 246 00:17:49.609 --> 00:17:52.369 right when you do. I've had a couple and it's like wow, like 247 00:17:52.890 --> 00:17:56.009 they're not going to be with this company very long. And so you know, 248 00:17:56.089 --> 00:18:00.599 southwest airlines there and so many of case studies as relates to business, 249 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:04.200 which they're there for a reason. But when you think about southwest airlines actual 250 00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:10.119 value proposition, they really don't have that great of a value proposition compared to 251 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:11.440 some of the other airlines. They don't have TV's in the back of their 252 00:18:11.480 --> 00:18:15.589 seats. You know the boarding process. For a lot of people they don't 253 00:18:15.589 --> 00:18:18.069 really like it, they just put up with it. No matter how many 254 00:18:18.109 --> 00:18:22.670 times I twenty four hours in advance of my boarding time, I'm always be 255 00:18:22.990 --> 00:18:26.269 thirteen or lower. It's like how does that absolutely and how does that actually 256 00:18:26.269 --> 00:18:30.099 happened? But what Southwest Airlines is done. They have mastered the element of 257 00:18:30.140 --> 00:18:33.859 Building Trust with their friendline employees and then their policies and procedures, the one 258 00:18:33.980 --> 00:18:38.819 policy that is so vital to them if their bags fly free policy went away. 259 00:18:38.900 --> 00:18:44.250 So imagine they say hey, backsply prey, backslife pre policy is going 260 00:18:44.289 --> 00:18:48.089 to go away so that we can increase the value proposition for our customers so 261 00:18:48.250 --> 00:18:52.089 that they have TV's in the back of their seats and they have better food 262 00:18:52.130 --> 00:18:56.359 options on our place. They it would be a revolt. They would have 263 00:18:56.440 --> 00:19:00.359 a mass exodus because people have come to trust and love that backsfly free policy 264 00:19:00.759 --> 00:19:06.279 and if that went away that would be an ultimate trust violation for selfpost airlines. 265 00:19:06.920 --> 00:19:10.000 It's really interesting. We fly a lot out of Denver. We're in 266 00:19:10.069 --> 00:19:12.670 Colorado Springs, which, for folks that aren't familiar, is like we're about 267 00:19:12.710 --> 00:19:17.869 forty five minutes south of South Denver and about ninety minutes from the airport, 268 00:19:17.869 --> 00:19:22.109 because here courts way out east and we used to fly frontier a lot. 269 00:19:22.190 --> 00:19:25.940 They have a lot of gates in in Denver and there were, you know, 270 00:19:26.339 --> 00:19:30.619 TV's in the back of the seats, like like good standard policy, 271 00:19:30.700 --> 00:19:34.420 and then slowly they change their model to go kind of downmarket toward what I 272 00:19:34.539 --> 00:19:37.769 think is like a spirit or an allegiant where all of a sudden you have 273 00:19:37.890 --> 00:19:42.210 to pay for your bag check, you have to pay for a bag carry 274 00:19:42.289 --> 00:19:45.769 on, you have to pay if you want to pick your seat, you 275 00:19:45.849 --> 00:19:47.809 have to pay more, of course, if you want to pick a good 276 00:19:47.849 --> 00:19:51.410 seat, like all of this kind of craziness. And so, you know, 277 00:19:51.930 --> 00:19:53.960 we just stopped flying, and that's when the company split and now we 278 00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:59.000 have southwest people and United People and you know, some people were still would 279 00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:00.960 do what they're going to do. But to your point of like, we 280 00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:03.359 for the first two years or so when we started doing a lot more trade 281 00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:08.509 shows and conferences and expos and things, we were we were very actively flying, 282 00:20:10.269 --> 00:20:12.990 paying a brand, I'll make it even more generic, paying a brand 283 00:20:14.069 --> 00:20:18.029 for their service, paying a company for their service, and then the rules 284 00:20:18.069 --> 00:20:22.019 started to change on us and you don't realize the rules are changing because there 285 00:20:22.019 --> 00:20:23.380 are any headlines about it, until the next time you go to book. 286 00:20:23.380 --> 00:20:26.140 You know, like, to your point, this doesn't feel the same, 287 00:20:26.299 --> 00:20:30.779 this doesn't look the same, effect this isn't the same. And so that 288 00:20:30.259 --> 00:20:36.049 that's your pointees, and what you experience was a trust violation as it relates 289 00:20:36.089 --> 00:20:41.049 to their benevolence towards you, meaning baby, by them not communicating to you, 290 00:20:41.170 --> 00:20:45.210 by them not considering what your experience was going to be in the new 291 00:20:45.329 --> 00:20:48.730 way, with the new policy shift, they have actually violated trust for you 292 00:20:48.769 --> 00:20:52.799 because they're now no longer being benevolent. They're not looking at for the needs 293 00:20:52.839 --> 00:20:56.160 of their customers. With Southwest Airlines, it's amazing how many people they booked 294 00:20:56.160 --> 00:21:02.000 southwest without pruss shopping. They just fly southwest. They totally trust that the 295 00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:04.589 prices are going to be at or near industry standard. But that's a pretty 296 00:21:04.630 --> 00:21:07.349 big purchase to not do preuss shopping on. We don't do that with other 297 00:21:08.309 --> 00:21:14.750 products within our companies or other vendors, but with southwest they have such tremendous 298 00:21:14.789 --> 00:21:18.140 friend loyalty. But if you go upstream, beyond the value proposition, it 299 00:21:18.299 --> 00:21:22.180 really is more of an element of trust for them and they've mastered it. 300 00:21:22.339 --> 00:21:26.180 And and so now the challenges, I think for them. They have to 301 00:21:26.299 --> 00:21:30.619 uphold that and they are known for that. And so because of that that 302 00:21:30.859 --> 00:21:34.890 provides for them tremendous accountability as a company. So I'm curious, Ethan, 303 00:21:34.930 --> 00:21:38.170 as you so you've been with your company now around eight year or so. 304 00:21:38.930 --> 00:21:42.490 Can you kind of think of maybe like a season or like a policy or 305 00:21:42.529 --> 00:21:45.890 a procedure where you all, as a team, you really thought more in 306 00:21:45.970 --> 00:21:49.440 terms of this is a more of a value proposition. How do we make 307 00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:53.599 it more trustworthy? kind of I try to ask that of business leaders because 308 00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:57.759 I'm I'm fascinated by how they've been able to apply this element of trust without 309 00:21:57.799 --> 00:22:02.190 them really even putting structure to it. They just do it intuitively. Is 310 00:22:02.230 --> 00:22:04.950 there something that you junior work there? We were like that's something that we 311 00:22:06.069 --> 00:22:08.750 move from a value proposition to really more of a focus on building trust. 312 00:22:10.509 --> 00:22:12.150 I don't know. I'll offer you the first thing that comes to mind and 313 00:22:12.190 --> 00:22:15.380 then you can tell me what I like what I've offered you. We're talking 314 00:22:15.380 --> 00:22:19.140 about bomb, bomb or software company subscribed by months or by year. We 315 00:22:19.259 --> 00:22:23.740 make it really easy to record and send video messages from our Webap from our 316 00:22:23.779 --> 00:22:29.019 mobile APPs, from Gmail Outlook, sales force outreach and a bunch of other 317 00:22:29.579 --> 00:22:32.450 instances, and then then track all the results, which allows you to get 318 00:22:32.450 --> 00:22:36.970 facetoface with more people more often, because it's better than relying exclusively on plane 319 00:22:37.009 --> 00:22:41.809 typed out texts. We're trying to get into relational exchanges, as in build 320 00:22:41.130 --> 00:22:45.480 trust and offer and deliver value in these kinds of things. It were better 321 00:22:45.559 --> 00:22:49.960 facetoface. So that's what our whole Mo is. So we've gone back and 322 00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:55.960 forth over the years and kind of various iterations of you know, first it 323 00:22:56.079 --> 00:22:59.470 was a thirty day money back guarantee. Then we move to more of a 324 00:22:59.589 --> 00:23:03.950 brand promise, which was, if you use this and you don't improve your 325 00:23:03.029 --> 00:23:07.589 results, however you define it, will give you all your money back. 326 00:23:07.950 --> 00:23:10.990 So what we did in that iteration was, and we believe this, if 327 00:23:11.069 --> 00:23:14.420 you send ten videos to people, let's just say, to say thank you 328 00:23:14.940 --> 00:23:17.900 or hey, how are you? It's been a while, I guarantee you're 329 00:23:17.900 --> 00:23:19.579 going to get replies and responses that let you know this is a different and 330 00:23:19.660 --> 00:23:22.579 better way to communicate. And so that that, that was our deals, 331 00:23:22.619 --> 00:23:27.089 like we know this works, and so instead of just a blanket someone looking 332 00:23:27.089 --> 00:23:32.329 at themselves in the camera and feeling uncomfortable, like that natural vulnerability that always 333 00:23:32.329 --> 00:23:36.009 occurs, and just bailing right away, we're like we wanted to create this 334 00:23:36.130 --> 00:23:40.329 situation where, like, trust us, if you use this and you make 335 00:23:40.369 --> 00:23:44.599 it to the other side of this initial little barrier. You're never going to 336 00:23:44.680 --> 00:23:47.680 look back because we've seen it for thousands of people before. You swet of 337 00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:51.720 like, if you use it and you don't improve your results. How redefine 338 00:23:51.759 --> 00:23:55.710 it? More replies, more responses, more clicks through your emails, higher 339 00:23:55.710 --> 00:23:59.150 lead conversion, better ability to stay in touch, more referrals, whatever, 340 00:23:59.190 --> 00:24:00.990 you know, whatever you're trying to get done, more appointment set and held, 341 00:24:02.150 --> 00:24:03.750 whatever, we'll give you all your money back, but you got to 342 00:24:03.789 --> 00:24:07.829 try. And so we wrote this framework around it and we published it and 343 00:24:07.869 --> 00:24:10.140 it was like, you know, you have to, you know, will 344 00:24:10.220 --> 00:24:12.579 do personal coaching with you and then you have to. I don't remember what 345 00:24:12.700 --> 00:24:15.220 the details are, so I'll make them up here. Since it's not in 346 00:24:15.339 --> 00:24:18.779 place, I guess it doesn't matter how exactly accurate I get. You know, 347 00:24:18.819 --> 00:24:22.980 if you send five videos within a week's time after we do a one 348 00:24:22.059 --> 00:24:26.490 on one consultation with you and you say Nope, let me go, we'll 349 00:24:26.569 --> 00:24:27.809 just we'll just let you go, a hundred percent refund. And the cool 350 00:24:27.809 --> 00:24:32.930 thing was we broke out of that thirty day window to right. So it 351 00:24:33.049 --> 00:24:36.410 wasn't just this. You know, thirty days give someone an easy like an 352 00:24:36.490 --> 00:24:38.480 easy out we're an actually so anyway. So we went with that a little 353 00:24:38.519 --> 00:24:41.200 bit it, but it was being sold a little bit differently than it was 354 00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:45.279 being executed on the you know, the sales side and the customer success side. 355 00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:49.480 There's a little bit of tension and miscommunication there. The customers hearing one 356 00:24:49.559 --> 00:24:52.430 thing when they're, you know, at this point of making a decision to 357 00:24:52.470 --> 00:24:56.109 provide a credit card number, but then as they get into it and they 358 00:24:56.109 --> 00:25:00.029 maybe want to cash it out, they're like, Oh, I actually have 359 00:25:00.109 --> 00:25:03.390 to do something. That wasn't my understanding of the promise in the beginning. 360 00:25:03.430 --> 00:25:06.470 And so, you know it, we've kind of walked away from that and 361 00:25:06.549 --> 00:25:08.019 we're in we're back to where we started, which is this kind of case 362 00:25:08.099 --> 00:25:12.180 by case situation where we'll really will really push you a little bit because we 363 00:25:12.420 --> 00:25:17.460 are doing behavior change. This is new behavior. This is a new tool 364 00:25:17.579 --> 00:25:19.539 in your tool set. There was a time, well before you and I, 365 00:25:19.740 --> 00:25:25.130 Cory, were walking the earth or running the earth, that people didn't 366 00:25:25.130 --> 00:25:30.609 sell by telephone. They sold only in person and through letters and mailings. 367 00:25:30.730 --> 00:25:34.170 Right like they have telephones on their sales test. This is essentially like a 368 00:25:34.289 --> 00:25:38.079 twenty one century telephone showing up on the thing that's going to allow you to 369 00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:42.599 be more effective more often in all these things. So we still will challenge 370 00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:45.640 you to pick up this new tool and make it go, because we know 371 00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:48.279 that it works. We've seen it work for thousands and thousands of people and 372 00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:51.589 we and we know we can encourage you and we know how hard this might 373 00:25:51.589 --> 00:25:55.509 be for you. So anyway, it's gone through various iterations and now it's 374 00:25:55.549 --> 00:25:57.470 kind of I honestly don't personally know where it is, because the company's big 375 00:25:57.509 --> 00:26:00.589 enough that don't know everything anymore. That's a fun era, by the way. 376 00:26:00.630 --> 00:26:03.940 There are a couple of years ago I knew everything. Right, it's 377 00:26:04.019 --> 00:26:07.180 so anyway, I'll offer it. I'll offer that. What do you what 378 00:26:07.259 --> 00:26:11.019 do you take there? Yeah, well, it's really interesting how you moving 379 00:26:11.180 --> 00:26:15.740 just a little bit away from that kind of value proposition of that. Here's 380 00:26:15.779 --> 00:26:18.769 the thirty day. You Know Thirty Day. Anything that's a value proposition. 381 00:26:19.369 --> 00:26:23.089 That's a value proposition framework, because it's like okay, thirty days. We've 382 00:26:23.130 --> 00:26:27.849 heard it before. We're familiar with the best very price driven and so but 383 00:26:27.970 --> 00:26:30.890 then also you have, as you have moved away from that. What I 384 00:26:32.009 --> 00:26:36.000 love about moving away from that you still kept the essence of it where you're 385 00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:40.160 challenging people, but you're making accustomed to their needs. So what you're doing 386 00:26:40.279 --> 00:26:45.720 there, you're naturally that's a competent approach that's intended to solve their problems with 387 00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:48.309 them, but then also and you're trying to help them understand the problems that 388 00:26:48.349 --> 00:26:51.710 they don't understand that they have yet. That's what we're trying to do. 389 00:26:52.190 --> 00:26:53.869 But then, third it really is looking up for their knees, because it's 390 00:26:53.950 --> 00:26:57.390 custom because they may not want to thirty day, they may want to tend 391 00:26:57.430 --> 00:27:00.670 it. They may one to forty five Ay, they may not even want 392 00:27:00.670 --> 00:27:03.500 to talk about that. So you guys have naturally what that procedure. You 393 00:27:03.619 --> 00:27:07.500 have moved towards more of a trust model and all I'll share this with you 394 00:27:07.779 --> 00:27:11.940 and to the listeners. Ethan did not ask me to do this. I 395 00:27:11.019 --> 00:27:17.289 will just offer this. So I had not met you yet. Ethan Curd 396 00:27:17.369 --> 00:27:21.250 had introduced us and then you sent her an email back to me and you 397 00:27:21.410 --> 00:27:25.930 held up my name and that was on the frame of the of the first 398 00:27:26.130 --> 00:27:27.730 email that you sent to me. And then it was the bomb on video. 399 00:27:29.730 --> 00:27:34.039 It literally redefined email for me in my mind. I've never I've never 400 00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:38.039 had something where it's like with emails like email, you type your email, 401 00:27:38.039 --> 00:27:41.519 you get another email, you generate more email, but that was one of 402 00:27:41.559 --> 00:27:45.150 the first times I've ever really had that experience. I've seen bombomb but I've 403 00:27:45.190 --> 00:27:49.309 never had someone interact with me with my name held up. That was so 404 00:27:49.470 --> 00:27:55.829 powerful to engage me and I click through and I listened in and it redefined 405 00:27:55.950 --> 00:27:59.940 email for me. It became a new way of communicating, and so that 406 00:28:00.140 --> 00:28:03.700 was very powerful and that was a trust building experience for me as I kind 407 00:28:03.740 --> 00:28:07.420 of Ben and also just to find you're a commitment to say I'm going to 408 00:28:07.579 --> 00:28:08.859 write your name down, I'm going to hold it up because I know that 409 00:28:08.900 --> 00:28:11.890 you're going to see it, because I care enough I'm going to sell your 410 00:28:11.930 --> 00:28:15.609 name right when I write your name down, I'm going to look to make 411 00:28:15.609 --> 00:28:18.450 sure that I'm running your name right and then as I interact with that was 412 00:28:18.490 --> 00:28:21.930 just such a cool experience. So what you guys are doing, it's all 413 00:28:21.970 --> 00:28:29.119 about building trust for you guys and this really gigantic area of email and you 414 00:28:29.240 --> 00:28:32.640 have done a great job of redefining that space and it sounds like you're doing 415 00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:36.079 it through, through trust. So well done. Yeah, thank you. 416 00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:38.960 And in most of the use cases are around this. Like you know, 417 00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:44.549 we're asking for people as people on the business side of the business, not 418 00:28:44.710 --> 00:28:47.349 bombomb but any business. Right. We do a ton of business in, 419 00:28:48.109 --> 00:28:52.390 you know, large sales organizations, large customer success organizations, all the way 420 00:28:52.430 --> 00:28:56.500 down to individual practitioners, whether they're, you know, like Solo Preneurs who 421 00:28:56.500 --> 00:29:00.900 are building a coaching business, or financial advisors, real estate, mortgage insurance, 422 00:29:00.940 --> 00:29:06.220 automotive typically buys as a team. We're doing all kinds of different business 423 00:29:06.220 --> 00:29:08.059 and all of these people are trying to do the same thing. is so 424 00:29:08.259 --> 00:29:14.289 much of the initial touch in a customer experience these days is digital. Right. 425 00:29:14.690 --> 00:29:18.009 I'm checking out websites or I'm reading online reviews or whatever the case may 426 00:29:18.049 --> 00:29:21.369 be, and now I'm going to engage with the company, because I'm not 427 00:29:21.450 --> 00:29:23.319 buying a widget, right. I'm not booking an airline ticket, I know 428 00:29:23.400 --> 00:29:26.559 how to do that. I'm not buying something where I can just read three 429 00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:30.200 reviews and decide whether to buy this or the other thing, or you and 430 00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:33.400 I going back to our running shoe. We do need to engage with a 431 00:29:33.480 --> 00:29:36.279 real person. I want to put on multiple pairs of shoes I don't like. 432 00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:38.509 I love that Zappos is going to be willing to take my shoes back 433 00:29:38.549 --> 00:29:41.230 and pay for the return if I don't like them, and even let me 434 00:29:41.309 --> 00:29:45.309 run in them. But I don't want to do that four or five times 435 00:29:45.390 --> 00:29:48.109 with four or five brands. I want to show up at a store and 436 00:29:48.549 --> 00:29:52.140 have a have someone who's going to judge my gate and judge my pronation help 437 00:29:52.220 --> 00:29:55.819 fit me in the right hue and I can do mote like. So there's 438 00:29:55.859 --> 00:29:57.380 some things that are better done with people and some things that are that are 439 00:29:57.420 --> 00:30:02.180 better done exclusively digital, and so we're working with people that are still doing 440 00:30:02.299 --> 00:30:08.210 things where human ads value reduces complexity, reduces tension, reduces emotion or anxiety 441 00:30:08.210 --> 00:30:12.490 or fear, walks you to through, you know, detail and nuance and 442 00:30:12.569 --> 00:30:18.609 again, complexity, and so in a lot of these cases those relationships are 443 00:30:18.650 --> 00:30:21.599 starting digital. So how do I know you're more than an email signature? 444 00:30:21.960 --> 00:30:25.720 Some people have a preference for dealing people, dealing with people that are in 445 00:30:25.759 --> 00:30:27.720 the states right, like I don't want to know that my support tickets going, 446 00:30:27.920 --> 00:30:30.599 you know, halfway around the world by someone that doesn't really know who 447 00:30:30.599 --> 00:30:33.400 I am, because they don't live my experience and all these other things. 448 00:30:33.400 --> 00:30:37.509 So when you just raise your hand and say hey, I'm a real person, 449 00:30:37.549 --> 00:30:40.950 I'm the face that goes with this name in the email signature, I'm 450 00:30:40.990 --> 00:30:44.869 the guy that left you that voice mail. And then this is super powerful 451 00:30:44.950 --> 00:30:48.549 part. I see you, cory, I hear you, cory, incurred 452 00:30:48.589 --> 00:30:52.299 about why we should get together and I understand you. I've looked you up 453 00:30:52.299 --> 00:30:56.099 online, I would love to have you on the show, etcetera, etc. 454 00:30:56.339 --> 00:30:57.980 And so this ability for me to be seen and hurt and then to 455 00:30:59.019 --> 00:31:02.220 also let you know as a fellow human being, that I see you and 456 00:31:02.339 --> 00:31:06.049 hear you, is like that's that's it, that's where it's at. It 457 00:31:06.329 --> 00:31:08.849 is and you're not, you know you're not. You're not generating that on 458 00:31:08.970 --> 00:31:14.170 your cell phone while you're walking to your next meeting, like you are intentionally 459 00:31:14.529 --> 00:31:18.599 slowing down, and it's almost like amphire experience. You know what we're engaging 460 00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:22.640 in right now, because I see you, you see me. We're in 461 00:31:22.720 --> 00:31:25.839 our own element. We have our own stories for sharing stories, maybe more 462 00:31:25.960 --> 00:31:29.279 freely because we have the technology it wish to be able to do that. 463 00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:33.190 There's something about sitting on a campfire, whether it's in the bottom of the 464 00:31:33.230 --> 00:31:37.069 ringing, in the bottom of the Grand Canyon or out in your driveway for 465 00:31:37.150 --> 00:31:44.869 Halloween, where something very powerful about the campfire just creates these storytelling opportunities, 466 00:31:44.910 --> 00:31:48.819 and so I just I appreciated that interaction of very powerful for me and I 467 00:31:48.900 --> 00:31:53.980 immuniately thought to myself, that is a trust building approach. It real, 468 00:31:55.099 --> 00:31:56.619 it really is. It's not about value, it's not about efficiency. It 469 00:31:56.740 --> 00:32:00.900 does take a little bit more work there. It does require a little bit 470 00:32:00.940 --> 00:32:05.289 more intentionality with that, but you guys, obviously you guys have figured that 471 00:32:05.369 --> 00:32:07.970 out. It's awesome. Yeah, thank you. And and once you get 472 00:32:08.009 --> 00:32:14.009 basically comfortable with the process, it will save time because we speak about four 473 00:32:14.049 --> 00:32:17.039 times faster than we type this. So and some things are just easier to 474 00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:21.240 describe. And with the screen recording where you can have your little face on 475 00:32:21.319 --> 00:32:25.519 there and walk someone through document or a presentation or something like it, there's 476 00:32:25.599 --> 00:32:31.269 some efficiency plates here anyway. So you did a great job describing trust, 477 00:32:31.589 --> 00:32:37.150 value in loyalty, in their relationship to one another, the elements of trust. 478 00:32:37.470 --> 00:32:40.269 Just before we get on and get maybe into some practical advice, that 479 00:32:40.349 --> 00:32:45.220 you've seen in working with some of the leaders and organizations you've worked with about 480 00:32:45.259 --> 00:32:49.740 how to do trust that are in our organizations and our indoor with our customers 481 00:32:50.339 --> 00:32:52.940 to find that last element, like what are you what are we getting at 482 00:32:52.980 --> 00:32:57.019 with that term relational exchanges? Yeah, I think relational exchange is the the 483 00:32:57.099 --> 00:33:00.289 original authors of the model. I think what they were talking about is anytime 484 00:33:00.329 --> 00:33:07.049 that we are interacting with a company. So that may be in a customer 485 00:33:07.250 --> 00:33:12.880 a true customer service experience, or it could be a relational exchange where I'm 486 00:33:12.920 --> 00:33:17.240 interacting with a branding element or a create, a creative element because there was 487 00:33:19.319 --> 00:33:23.519 that company is developing a relational bridge with me. So I may not necessarily 488 00:33:23.599 --> 00:33:30.309 be connecting person to person because I'm actually interacting with something that a person created 489 00:33:30.710 --> 00:33:34.990 so that I might have a deeper experience with that particular organization. But what 490 00:33:35.230 --> 00:33:39.549 the research that they did was primarily with people to people. My particular research 491 00:33:39.670 --> 00:33:45.579 focused on I was I was struck by this reality that in Higher d over 492 00:33:45.700 --> 00:33:50.380 twenty percent of freshman who come into a college environment, over twenty percent of 493 00:33:50.420 --> 00:33:53.140 them their sophomore year, they leave that particular college and they will either go 494 00:33:53.460 --> 00:33:58.410 to another school or they will drop out. And when you think about the 495 00:33:58.490 --> 00:34:02.930 economic impact of twenty percent of your customer base leaving your company after a year, 496 00:34:04.730 --> 00:34:07.809 and then when you think about it in terms of how long that sales 497 00:34:07.889 --> 00:34:14.239 cycle is in order to acquire that particular customer, that student. So my 498 00:34:14.440 --> 00:34:20.920 daughter, she's a junior right now and she has now formally began that sales 499 00:34:21.320 --> 00:34:25.949 process. It's a long sale cycle and for a business it's really challenging to 500 00:34:27.030 --> 00:34:30.909 have long sales cycle low retention. That's that's top that's a very, very 501 00:34:30.949 --> 00:34:37.150 tough business model. And so now that always that kind of bugged me. 502 00:34:37.269 --> 00:34:39.940 It rked me because we were working so hard to get students on campus and 503 00:34:40.019 --> 00:34:44.139 I was thinking to myself, why is this occurring? And it's occurring across 504 00:34:44.139 --> 00:34:47.340 the country. Most schools have about a twenty to twenty four percent attrition rate 505 00:34:47.380 --> 00:34:52.409 after their freshman year. And so what I did was I've use this model 506 00:34:52.570 --> 00:34:58.090 and I was really curious about for the students that did say these were the 507 00:34:58.090 --> 00:35:00.849 students that they have gone at least to their sophomore year, junior year and 508 00:35:00.889 --> 00:35:07.719 then senior year. So I interviewed all four levels of grade and, as 509 00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:12.199 I did that. I was asking these questions around your perception of value, 510 00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:15.119 because I thought that it was about value, but I really learned that it 511 00:35:15.239 --> 00:35:19.199 was more about trust. And what was fascinating to me was the number one 512 00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:23.510 indicator of success for a student or the number one kind of catalysts and movement 513 00:35:23.670 --> 00:35:29.510 to Sophomore Year to junior to senior year. It was it was not necessarily 514 00:35:29.590 --> 00:35:35.150 the institution itself or even the brand power of that institution, it was actually 515 00:35:35.429 --> 00:35:38.780 the frontline employees, which, in the context of higher read the professors or 516 00:35:38.980 --> 00:35:44.019 the coaches, and so the bond that is created with professors and coaches, 517 00:35:44.059 --> 00:35:50.889 it's so powerful for higher because they are the people who are literally moving people, 518 00:35:51.489 --> 00:35:54.769 those customers, those students, through that customer experience, which is a 519 00:35:55.050 --> 00:36:02.409 long, intense, life changing experience for students. And so without professors, 520 00:36:02.489 --> 00:36:07.320 without coaches, it would be impossible for a hired institution to be able to 521 00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:12.760 actually get students to graduation. So the resource that I did really validated that. 522 00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:15.880 And you think about the number of relational exchanges that a student has with 523 00:36:16.039 --> 00:36:22.630 their professors, and that's why higher ed institutions they've got to hire great professors 524 00:36:22.710 --> 00:36:27.110 and they've got to hire professors who really understand what doesn't mean to build trust 525 00:36:27.190 --> 00:36:29.389 with those students. And then you know, it's why I think a lot 526 00:36:29.429 --> 00:36:34.940 of colleges have now a faculty advisor model where they got faculty members that are 527 00:36:34.980 --> 00:36:39.099 not only teaching but they're also advising students, and so they're really helping from 528 00:36:39.099 --> 00:36:43.739 a competent standpoints, are helping solve problems and they're doing this on behalf of 529 00:36:43.780 --> 00:36:46.250 the students. So that was such cool research to be able to find and 530 00:36:46.329 --> 00:36:51.929 validate to go that's the key. The professors are the key in the restors 531 00:36:51.969 --> 00:36:55.090 that I did as related to the primary trust builders, it's not the fifty 532 00:36:55.130 --> 00:37:00.679 million dollar student center, and those are great things. It's not the great 533 00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:05.800 food. That's a good thing. It's not the dorm rooms that have, 534 00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:09.079 you know, really nice furniture in it. It. I mean those are 535 00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:13.719 all good things. Those are adding value to the experience, but ultimately it's 536 00:37:13.760 --> 00:37:17.949 the professor for building the trusty everybody logan with sweet fish here. I had 537 00:37:17.989 --> 00:37:22.110 to take just a second today to share with you another podcast that's in my 538 00:37:22.349 --> 00:37:29.469 regular listening rotation. The sales engagement podcast has some great interviews and you pick 539 00:37:29.510 --> 00:37:34.219 up a lot of best practices from revenue leaders that are doing the job day 540 00:37:34.380 --> 00:37:37.619 in and day out. I've picked up so much learning from other sales leaders 541 00:37:37.619 --> 00:37:42.539 that are featured on the show. One of my favorites is seven things marketing 542 00:37:42.900 --> 00:37:47.369 wish sales knew about nurturing leads. So check out the sales engagement podcast. 543 00:37:47.530 --> 00:37:51.329 Wherever you do, you're listening and by the way, if you're not following 544 00:37:51.369 --> 00:37:54.570 Scott Barker on Linkedin, you should do that too. All right, let's 545 00:37:54.570 --> 00:38:00.440 get back to the show. So interesting. It's super, super interesting because 546 00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:04.199 all in that scenario, because that is a you know, if you're choosing 547 00:38:04.199 --> 00:38:08.039 to physically attend on campus, you've moved beyond I'm going to watch youtube videos 548 00:38:08.079 --> 00:38:12.909 or some of these, you know, online courses and these other things paid 549 00:38:13.070 --> 00:38:15.869 over free. Regardless. You're intentionally choosing this and it does come down to 550 00:38:15.989 --> 00:38:20.150 that human engagement that makes the difference. That, like, you know, 551 00:38:20.349 --> 00:38:22.469 when you're evaluating you're comparing two schools, you are going to look at like 552 00:38:22.630 --> 00:38:27.110 have but this one has, you know, the cafeterias with that much better 553 00:38:27.139 --> 00:38:30.219 and more interesting menu. They do Sushi twice a week or whatever. You 554 00:38:30.300 --> 00:38:32.059 know, and then and that stuff like adds up and like allows me to 555 00:38:32.139 --> 00:38:37.739 check my box. But ultimately, when we decide to commit and declare loyalty 556 00:38:38.179 --> 00:38:43.489 to ourselves in our own heads, through our behavior, or consciously or subconsciously 557 00:38:43.489 --> 00:38:47.889 or whatever, it's about that human relational exchange is so interesting. Just fun 558 00:38:47.969 --> 00:38:52.210 fact, you just triggered me on bombomb by like by bringing it up. 559 00:38:52.849 --> 00:38:55.400 One we have a lot of folks in admissions offices using this to reach out 560 00:38:55.440 --> 00:39:00.519 to prospective students and, of course your parents, because it's a dual sale 561 00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:04.440 there. You have to sell everybody on it. And then chapter five of 562 00:39:04.639 --> 00:39:07.599 the book I co authored with Steve Passonelli called we humanize your business about this 563 00:39:07.800 --> 00:39:12.630 process of you's using simple personal videos. The story I tell in the opening 564 00:39:12.670 --> 00:39:17.269 of chapter five is a college professor. He teaches online only for Canesius college 565 00:39:17.349 --> 00:39:22.510 and University of Buffalo and he sends videos to the whole class to start the 566 00:39:22.630 --> 00:39:29.380 semester and then throughout the semester as he's giving feedback or answering questions or whatever 567 00:39:29.420 --> 00:39:34.619 he tends to do with videos. And his student ratings were so high that 568 00:39:34.739 --> 00:39:38.050 the tenured that the people on the physical campus asked him to come in and 569 00:39:38.170 --> 00:39:43.809 teach the tenured professors how to use video to build these relationships. And so, 570 00:39:44.250 --> 00:39:47.090 anyway, it's all right there. Let's go to the other side with 571 00:39:47.369 --> 00:39:51.289 this. Is Been Awesome and I feel like I can keep going for like 572 00:39:51.369 --> 00:39:52.960 an hour and a half, but I won't ask you to do that. 573 00:39:52.360 --> 00:39:55.639 You know, I was going to ask you to talk about building employee facing 574 00:39:55.719 --> 00:40:00.320 trust and or customer facing trust, but I guess I'll go I'll blend those 575 00:40:00.400 --> 00:40:05.159 and see, like in your experience talking with people and doing your research, 576 00:40:05.199 --> 00:40:08.309 where do we go wrong on trust, besides maybe taking the whole dynamic in 577 00:40:08.429 --> 00:40:14.989 the importance of relational exchanges and leaving positive resident you set all that to the 578 00:40:15.110 --> 00:40:16.630 side, like the taking it for granted piece. What are we what are 579 00:40:16.670 --> 00:40:21.780 we actively doing to go wrong on trust? Yeah, but what gets in 580 00:40:21.860 --> 00:40:24.139 our way? What are its impediments? It's a great question. You know, 581 00:40:25.579 --> 00:40:30.659 simple framework that I'm a I'm a big fan of like her scales. 582 00:40:30.739 --> 00:40:34.179 I think like herd scales, they just they dimensionalize, at least in my 583 00:40:34.300 --> 00:40:36.809 mind. Now I think it's like, okay, it's either a one or 584 00:40:36.889 --> 00:40:39.170 five or wires in between. And so one of the things that I've developed 585 00:40:39.210 --> 00:40:44.329 as a tool to help talk about this is a really simple liker scale. 586 00:40:44.449 --> 00:40:47.489 So if, for example, in your own mind, as you think about 587 00:40:47.530 --> 00:40:53.280 your own Organization for employees, and anyone can do this in with her employees 588 00:40:53.320 --> 00:40:57.880 when they think about if they think about a particular employee and they do three 589 00:40:57.920 --> 00:41:00.960 questions. So on a scale one to five, how competent is this individual? 590 00:41:01.239 --> 00:41:04.829 Five being amazing, one being they got a lot of work, or 591 00:41:04.989 --> 00:41:07.949 perhaps it's time for them to consider a new new role somewhere else. Okay. 592 00:41:08.389 --> 00:41:12.510 Number two, are they a problem solver? That would be a five, 593 00:41:12.550 --> 00:41:15.989 or are they a problem maker? That would be a one. And 594 00:41:15.070 --> 00:41:19.219 then number three, how benevolent are they? Are they looking out for the 595 00:41:19.300 --> 00:41:22.500 needs of others? That would be a five, or is it just all 596 00:41:22.539 --> 00:41:25.019 about them and all they care about as himself? That's a one. In 597 00:41:25.179 --> 00:41:30.380 the same way, you can apply that like or scale model to your policies 598 00:41:30.420 --> 00:41:35.250 and procedures, which the other thing about policies and procedures pricing. That is 599 00:41:35.369 --> 00:41:38.250 a policy. It may not be in the employee handbook but it very much 600 00:41:38.409 --> 00:41:44.329 is a policy. And so there are policies all over organizations that they don't 601 00:41:44.369 --> 00:41:46.360 end up in a handbook, but they are driving an organization. And so 602 00:41:47.039 --> 00:41:51.440 one of the things that I find helpful and talking with people about this, 603 00:41:51.639 --> 00:41:54.920 is to say, if you can have this conversation around the structure of trust 604 00:41:55.119 --> 00:42:00.880 before you actually have to evaluate whether or not something is trustworthy, what it 605 00:42:00.920 --> 00:42:05.309 does is it gives you an objective framework of discussion. So you can you 606 00:42:05.429 --> 00:42:10.309 can run your employee conversations or your hiring decisions through the filter of the structure 607 00:42:10.309 --> 00:42:14.829 or you can run this policy decision to go. Okay, hold on, 608 00:42:14.949 --> 00:42:17.739 before we get into that, let's make sure that we're evaluating this policy on 609 00:42:17.780 --> 00:42:22.579 the three criterion of building trust. Is a competent is a problem solving and 610 00:42:22.699 --> 00:42:27.579 as a benevolent and then you can introduce that structure from a leadership standpoint into 611 00:42:27.579 --> 00:42:31.690 the conversation and then it's not about my preference or their preference or their power 612 00:42:31.730 --> 00:42:37.690 or their position. I'm just offering a model and then let's have a conversation 613 00:42:37.769 --> 00:42:43.570 around this. An example of that would be situational leadership. That was developed 614 00:42:43.610 --> 00:42:47.079 by a heresy and Blanchard, this amazing view on some leadership and how they 615 00:42:47.119 --> 00:42:52.719 talk about how we have to lead situationally and with my team in my work 616 00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:57.199 at the Church that I work out we have created a lexicon and a language 617 00:42:57.199 --> 00:43:00.030 around situational leadership. And so what would it look like for an organization to 618 00:43:00.110 --> 00:43:05.389 say hey, before we have any kind of conversations, whether it's emotional or 619 00:43:05.429 --> 00:43:10.349 bias or historical or whatever, let's start with the framework of trust and then 620 00:43:10.949 --> 00:43:14.380 when we come out on the end of that, we will know that we 621 00:43:14.500 --> 00:43:17.900 have been true to our customer by ultimately our desire to build trust with them. 622 00:43:19.420 --> 00:43:22.500 And then if you did an evaluation of, let's say a policy and 623 00:43:22.980 --> 00:43:28.489 your rating was one, three one, you probably need to look at changing 624 00:43:28.570 --> 00:43:31.849 the policy to where it becomes a four, three, four, because a 625 00:43:31.889 --> 00:43:37.730 one thirty one, meaning it's low competence, it kind of solves problems, 626 00:43:37.769 --> 00:43:39.570 maybe it's kind of neutral, but it really is only looking up the for 627 00:43:39.650 --> 00:43:45.519 the needs of our own organization, maybe from an efficiency standpoint. Ultimately, 628 00:43:45.719 --> 00:43:50.199 that procedure, if a customers interacting with it, it's going to reduce trust 629 00:43:50.400 --> 00:43:52.159 and you don't want that. But if you can catch that on the front 630 00:43:52.159 --> 00:43:57.389 end and say how might we tweak this just a little bit to where it's 631 00:43:57.389 --> 00:44:00.590 actually more competent, more problem solving and more benevolent, the research, the 632 00:44:00.750 --> 00:44:07.269 empirical data shows that it will build trust. That will lead to higher perceived 633 00:44:07.309 --> 00:44:12.099 value, regardless of the price. Obviously, of pricing has to be within 634 00:44:12.219 --> 00:44:15.059 range, but it will also lead to loyalty. The beauty of the model 635 00:44:15.139 --> 00:44:20.820 is it is empirical, it's proven in multiple industries and so it works and 636 00:44:20.940 --> 00:44:23.369 it's just a really good way to think in terms of from a leadership standpoint. 637 00:44:24.130 --> 00:44:28.489 I'm going to set the table with all of the key components of the 638 00:44:28.570 --> 00:44:32.650 trust conversation. Now let's have a conversation and dying around the table. There's 639 00:44:32.690 --> 00:44:36.889 nothing worse than stepping into a meeting where there's just there's no food on the 640 00:44:36.929 --> 00:44:38.239 table, there's no soiler on the tables, like, what are we doing? 641 00:44:38.320 --> 00:44:42.679 Are we just talking here? But as a leader who can set the 642 00:44:42.719 --> 00:44:45.519 table of property, I think our conversations are going to leave the more trustworthy 643 00:44:46.000 --> 00:44:50.760 endeavors with people, as well as our policies, really good. I love 644 00:44:50.840 --> 00:44:54.510 the intentionality and bringing it to the front of the conversation. Just a point 645 00:44:54.550 --> 00:44:59.389 of clarity for me and hopefully on behalf of Lissteners who might have wondered the 646 00:44:59.429 --> 00:45:04.150 same thing. What does benevolence look like as a five on your scale. 647 00:45:04.309 --> 00:45:07.380 Is that like a true win win, where we're putting, you know, 648 00:45:07.539 --> 00:45:09.980 like, because that's a lever right, like is this or is this just 649 00:45:10.139 --> 00:45:13.780 a straight giveaway? So at one point, just to go back to the 650 00:45:13.980 --> 00:45:16.219 thing you offer challenge me with earlier, you know, one point we're just 651 00:45:16.300 --> 00:45:19.420 like, if someone wants her money back, we just given their money back, 652 00:45:19.500 --> 00:45:22.289 no questions asked, doesn't matter when they ask for it. And and 653 00:45:22.489 --> 00:45:25.289 that was, you know, the customer has to take some responsibility. They 654 00:45:25.329 --> 00:45:28.610 were the ones that said, yes, I want to do this. I 655 00:45:28.809 --> 00:45:31.329 wouldn't take their credit card number. They entered it into the website right. 656 00:45:31.329 --> 00:45:36.320 And so what is their responsibility here? To to work it a little bit 657 00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:38.320 and draw some value. And you know, where do we take responsibility? 658 00:45:38.480 --> 00:45:44.159 So for this benevolence pieces your is you're riding this tension between are we doing 659 00:45:44.320 --> 00:45:47.239 this or making this decision or going this way instead of that way? Are 660 00:45:47.320 --> 00:45:51.949 we all about US versus? Maybe the the far other end is just a 661 00:45:52.110 --> 00:45:54.550 total giveaway that's actually not even in our own interests. Like what is a 662 00:45:54.750 --> 00:45:59.429 five and benevolence look like? Is this like a balanced win win? We're 663 00:45:59.750 --> 00:46:00.869 good for us, good for them or what it talk a little bit, 664 00:46:01.349 --> 00:46:06.019 one layer deeper on benevolence. Yeah, I think ultimately it should be a 665 00:46:06.099 --> 00:46:09.980 win win, but we're I think it's easier just organ naturally organization. It's 666 00:46:09.980 --> 00:46:15.659 easier for us to have a win internally and kind of well, whatever it 667 00:46:15.780 --> 00:46:19.050 is for them, it is. That's what it is. And so the 668 00:46:19.329 --> 00:46:22.730 the win when I think, you know, one recommendation might be talked to 669 00:46:22.849 --> 00:46:29.010 your existing customers, your champions, and ask them say, okay, if 670 00:46:29.050 --> 00:46:32.719 we were to take pricing out of your initial experience as we introduce this to 671 00:46:32.880 --> 00:46:37.360 you, what might have been some other ways in which we might have just 672 00:46:37.559 --> 00:46:40.320 met your needs patter in that process. So, like I would say, 673 00:46:40.440 --> 00:46:45.000 let's have it on his conversation with an existing company that knows, they truly 674 00:46:45.079 --> 00:46:50.309 do know the value of your product, right, but you've got to trust 675 00:46:50.349 --> 00:46:52.829 her relationship to where they can say honestly, it really wasn't about the thirty 676 00:46:52.829 --> 00:46:57.869 day guarantee or whatever it was. It was actually just about that person that 677 00:46:57.909 --> 00:47:02.219 I talked to. They were unbelievable and their office looked really cool behind them 678 00:47:02.900 --> 00:47:07.900 and they engaged me. They didn't bug me with too many conversations like it 679 00:47:08.019 --> 00:47:10.780 was right. I mean I think it would be really interesting you guys, 680 00:47:10.980 --> 00:47:15.420 maybe you already done this, but to actually do some data mining on some 681 00:47:15.500 --> 00:47:19.650 of your current or existing customers that are what I would call champions and allow 682 00:47:19.730 --> 00:47:22.530 them to start shaping because what might be really powerful about that is that as 683 00:47:22.570 --> 00:47:27.449 you rule something like that out in a new benevolence strategy, you can say 684 00:47:27.929 --> 00:47:30.320 hey, this isn't just coming from a white board in a board room somewhere, 685 00:47:30.840 --> 00:47:35.679 this is coming from existing companies. This is they told us. You 686 00:47:35.800 --> 00:47:38.920 could have been more benevolent to us if you had done this more and we're 687 00:47:39.159 --> 00:47:44.349 learning from that. I mean that in and of itself that process is benevolent 688 00:47:44.429 --> 00:47:47.030 to your future customers. So that could be a really interesting way to approach 689 00:47:47.070 --> 00:47:51.550 that. Love it. That's a great tip I have. I've two standard 690 00:47:51.590 --> 00:47:54.309 closed questions, but before we get there, because of your experience in Higher 691 00:47:54.309 --> 00:48:00.139 Ed and I didn't quite understand how tied to higher ed your doctoral work was, 692 00:48:00.260 --> 00:48:04.380 and so I this really makes me want to ask is any thoughts on 693 00:48:04.619 --> 00:48:08.340 higher education at a high level, specially when you introduced your daughters in the 694 00:48:08.380 --> 00:48:13.369 zone here. You've obviously committed to it yourself. I feel like the combination 695 00:48:13.650 --> 00:48:17.849 of the cost benefit of, let's just say an undergraduate degree is obviously under 696 00:48:17.969 --> 00:48:23.530 threat because it's been so dramatically outpacing inflation and everything else on any index for 697 00:48:23.969 --> 00:48:27.760 you know, the cost of what, you know, the cost of everything 698 00:48:27.880 --> 00:48:30.639 is outpaced all of it. And then, of course, like on the 699 00:48:30.719 --> 00:48:32.800 other side, there's kind of like hull hustle culture, you know, if 700 00:48:32.840 --> 00:48:37.920 you're if you're true Entrepreneuri like some of our best entrepreneurs or college dropouts, 701 00:48:37.920 --> 00:48:43.150 etc. Talk about your your thoughts of higher education. What is its value? 702 00:48:43.190 --> 00:48:46.309 What is its place in and from an experience standpoint, what's so important 703 00:48:46.349 --> 00:48:52.110 about that physical on campus kind of rite of passage for some share of our 704 00:48:52.710 --> 00:48:57.739 Americans? Yeah, this is a great question. It's a an honest ill 705 00:48:57.780 --> 00:49:01.059 like they were having with our daughter and our son who's he's a freshman and 706 00:49:01.139 --> 00:49:05.579 so he'll be entering into this and so one of the things that we're starting 707 00:49:05.579 --> 00:49:08.420 out is at a point of neutrality. Is So there's a lot of different 708 00:49:08.460 --> 00:49:12.969 an options post high school. We want to look at them as equally as 709 00:49:13.010 --> 00:49:15.329 we can, even though my wife and I we both have, you know, 710 00:49:15.489 --> 00:49:19.889 Higher Ed experiences, but they don't have to go to a school just 711 00:49:20.010 --> 00:49:22.170 because we went to that school and it's not assume that they're going to pursue 712 00:49:23.250 --> 00:49:28.000 higher ed degree, and so that's okay. There's tons of amazing options out 713 00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:32.400 there for those who are wanting to pursue higher ed because of a particular type 714 00:49:32.400 --> 00:49:37.639 of degree or experience that they want. I think it's incredibly valuable. You 715 00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:42.230 alluded to it earlier, though. There's over fourzero colleges in America, ranging 716 00:49:42.269 --> 00:49:45.750 from very low tuition and like we have a program here in Missouri where, 717 00:49:45.750 --> 00:49:50.309 if you do a couple of community service, you've got good attendants at your 718 00:49:50.309 --> 00:49:52.780 school your first two years of community college or paid for and then you transition 719 00:49:52.860 --> 00:49:57.940 into a for your institution. So those are the programs that are obviously very 720 00:49:57.940 --> 00:50:00.820 significant for some families, which is awesome. But one of the things that 721 00:50:00.940 --> 00:50:07.530 I think is really important to note is that ultimately, right now, at 722 00:50:07.570 --> 00:50:13.809 least currently in kind of the status of Higher Ed, employers still rely very, 723 00:50:13.849 --> 00:50:20.730 very heavily on degrees from colleges and until that really starts to change, 724 00:50:21.210 --> 00:50:24.719 there's automatically going to be value and a degree from afore your institution. So 725 00:50:25.360 --> 00:50:30.159 I know there's a lot of certificate programs and there's different ways of learning online, 726 00:50:30.159 --> 00:50:34.639 but if you think about it, employers, they still do. There 727 00:50:34.760 --> 00:50:37.909 is an element of that where that's an expectation still and that may not not 728 00:50:38.030 --> 00:50:43.349 exist forever, but that's the current state and so what they are really I 729 00:50:43.429 --> 00:50:47.829 think, what employers are doing there is they're seeing did this particular student did 730 00:50:47.829 --> 00:50:52.980 they align themselves with the particular institution and a major do they have they built 731 00:50:52.019 --> 00:50:58.340 some credentials, that they built competence in this particular field? HAVE THEY BUILT 732 00:50:58.460 --> 00:51:04.059 PROBLEM SOLVING ACUMEN? And you can do that absolutely in a four year experience. 733 00:51:04.409 --> 00:51:07.329 And then, of course, are you developing soft skills, interacting, 734 00:51:07.570 --> 00:51:14.650 living in community with people, working with multigeneration, with professors and administration and 735 00:51:14.889 --> 00:51:17.960 other staff and, of course, other students. That's an element of your 736 00:51:19.119 --> 00:51:23.079 building your benevolence, you're building your emotional intelligence. So a four year degree 737 00:51:23.440 --> 00:51:28.920 in its optimal state is a trust building experience so that when you step into 738 00:51:28.960 --> 00:51:32.510 an organization and an employers hiring you, you've created some of those trust building 739 00:51:32.550 --> 00:51:37.590 acumen. And so I think until that requirement changes the value of a four 740 00:51:37.590 --> 00:51:42.070 year degree is still going to be very high. For people, especially in 741 00:51:42.309 --> 00:51:45.190 certain agree. So like, for example, my daughter, she knows she 742 00:51:45.230 --> 00:51:47.300 wants to go into medicine. Not a lot of choices out there except it 743 00:51:47.340 --> 00:51:52.739 go through for year and then graduate school and that for her. But maybe 744 00:51:52.820 --> 00:51:54.739 my son, maybe he wants to go into something different. Maybe he wants 745 00:51:54.739 --> 00:52:00.260 to go military or a trade school or hired, and that's totally fine at 746 00:52:00.300 --> 00:52:01.769 the end of the day. Well, we want to do as parents. 747 00:52:02.329 --> 00:52:07.690 We want them to become better thinkers and better problem Sol wars women. We 748 00:52:07.769 --> 00:52:12.090 want them to be a benevolent some be compident and we want them to make 749 00:52:12.130 --> 00:52:15.130 an impact wherever they land. And if that is true, a four year 750 00:52:15.170 --> 00:52:19.079 degree experience, that's awesome and there's going to be value on that. It's 751 00:52:19.119 --> 00:52:23.039 really good, nice use of the framework there and just as like another reader, 752 00:52:23.239 --> 00:52:27.760 to step like this can be applied in use in so many scenarios, 753 00:52:27.920 --> 00:52:31.190 so useful. You also and to I think that that college requirement is very 754 00:52:31.230 --> 00:52:37.510 lumpy right, like medicine law. Yeah, absolutely necessary, but you're starting 755 00:52:37.510 --> 00:52:40.190 to see some you know, software companies, for example. It's more of 756 00:52:40.389 --> 00:52:46.139 it. You don't necessarily need to build that that multigenerational interaction and demonstrate the 757 00:52:46.179 --> 00:52:50.619 stuff. We just need to be able to look at the situation, come 758 00:52:50.659 --> 00:52:52.659 up with a couple code solutions and be able to execute them or whatever. 759 00:52:52.699 --> 00:52:57.059 And so the distribution there is a little bit lumpy. Cory, this has 760 00:52:57.099 --> 00:52:59.690 been awesome. I've enjoyed it so much. Before I let you go, 761 00:52:59.769 --> 00:53:01.690 I always do a few things. One, I want to give you the 762 00:53:01.769 --> 00:53:06.130 chance to think or mention someone who's had a positive impact on your life or 763 00:53:06.210 --> 00:53:09.610 career. And this is especially interesting for me to ask you because of the 764 00:53:10.010 --> 00:53:14.679 again, the dynamic nature of your career and I like the various phases and 765 00:53:14.760 --> 00:53:20.480 evolutions of it and and and I can see in hindsight how each step in 766 00:53:20.639 --> 00:53:24.000 your formal professional, on paper career makes sense, especially now having spent this 767 00:53:24.119 --> 00:53:28.510 time with you. But I think or thinker mentions has had a positive impact 768 00:53:28.510 --> 00:53:31.309 on your life or career and give a mention to a company besides Brooks that 769 00:53:31.429 --> 00:53:37.030 you feel as delivering customer experience and in a really good way. The for 770 00:53:37.269 --> 00:53:38.789 both of those questions are hard. I could go on for a while, 771 00:53:38.789 --> 00:53:42.420 so I'll try to limit it. I've got to give you two names. 772 00:53:43.059 --> 00:53:46.699 The first is merl meets and Tim Overbee, who they they were the pastors 773 00:53:46.739 --> 00:53:52.340 and my Church during this dissertation work and my NBA stuff and then transition of 774 00:53:52.420 --> 00:53:55.449 jobs, and so the church that we were attending, they both shepherded me 775 00:53:55.730 --> 00:54:00.849 through that in such tremendous way as they listened we work through. We were 776 00:54:00.929 --> 00:54:06.889 consistently meeting and so they became such amazing spiritual directors for me as well as 777 00:54:06.969 --> 00:54:10.159 just strategists as of US thinking about my next step. So Merlin, Tim 778 00:54:10.320 --> 00:54:14.079 and then the coal part is is that I now work with them. They 779 00:54:14.159 --> 00:54:16.440 hired me and so that's the church that I work at. So I am 780 00:54:16.559 --> 00:54:21.599 so incredibly blessed to work with with them and everyone else. I'll obviously at 781 00:54:21.679 --> 00:54:24.909 PV. And then as relates to some companies that I think are doing great 782 00:54:24.949 --> 00:54:29.389 work. You know, we talked about Kurt with cuts branding, unbelievable work 783 00:54:29.429 --> 00:54:34.469 around brand strategy, and then two local companies here in Kansas City that are 784 00:54:34.510 --> 00:54:37.659 amazing. One is a young company called they're younger, they've only been in 785 00:54:37.820 --> 00:54:42.900 existence for a handful of years, but they they the work that they do 786 00:54:43.219 --> 00:54:49.300 is like twenty years. It's amazing what they've done and is called intrepid creative 787 00:54:49.420 --> 00:54:54.050 and they produce unbelievable video content, podcast content. They're awesome, so interpred 788 00:54:54.130 --> 00:54:59.010 creative. And then the the final one that I would mention is called guild 789 00:54:59.650 --> 00:55:02.650 content and they work with a lot of organizations as it relates to ensuring that 790 00:55:02.690 --> 00:55:08.000 the content is dynamic. It's building trust with a different stakeholders within the organization 791 00:55:08.119 --> 00:55:12.800 and they're also a local company here in Kansas City. There's all sorts of 792 00:55:12.880 --> 00:55:16.559 great companies here in Kansas City and so we're happy to be in this area. 793 00:55:16.679 --> 00:55:20.760 But those are just a few shoutouts. Awesome. Thank you for that. 794 00:55:20.880 --> 00:55:23.349 Hey, if someone wants to go deeper, if they want to connect 795 00:55:23.349 --> 00:55:28.429 with you or some of these just super valuable ideas in frameworks, where would 796 00:55:28.429 --> 00:55:30.630 you send people to connect? Yeah, so the best way to reach me 797 00:55:30.949 --> 00:55:36.260 is through Linkedin. So hop on Linkedin and just shoo me a direct message, 798 00:55:36.340 --> 00:55:38.059 you know, send me a connection. I say yes to people if 799 00:55:38.099 --> 00:55:42.019 they want to connect with me and then send me a direct message and then 800 00:55:42.059 --> 00:55:45.380 we can begin a conversation. But linkedin is definitely going to be the best 801 00:55:45.380 --> 00:55:49.579 way to rage on social and I would love to connect with anyone who wants 802 00:55:49.619 --> 00:55:52.849 to talk about how do you build trust within a company? And in our 803 00:55:52.929 --> 00:55:57.010 relational exchange, because it's vital, and the companies that we interact with that 804 00:55:57.130 --> 00:56:00.530 do this well, we tend to always go back to them. It's like 805 00:56:00.690 --> 00:56:04.880 this Jedi mind trick that they have on us. But it really isn't about 806 00:56:05.000 --> 00:56:07.920 that. It's really just about they understand what it means to be competent, 807 00:56:08.079 --> 00:56:12.559 what it means to be problem solvers and what it means to put other people's 808 00:56:12.559 --> 00:56:16.559 knews before their own, and that is trust. Beautiful. He is Corey 809 00:56:16.719 --> 00:56:20.789 here, I am Ethan, beauty. You can connect with both of us 810 00:56:20.869 --> 00:56:23.710 on Linkedin. Corey, thank you so much for your time. Thank you, 811 00:56:23.829 --> 00:56:25.949 me Ethan. It was really a pleasure. It was awesome to be 812 00:56:27.030 --> 00:56:31.070 with you today. I hope you enjoyed your time learning with Corey Shear about 813 00:56:31.150 --> 00:56:37.099 competence, problem solving and benevolence, about trust, value you in loyalty. 814 00:56:37.659 --> 00:56:42.579 And how about that take on human connection as a key to customer relationships and 815 00:56:42.820 --> 00:56:46.610 retention? If you enjoyed that conversation and want to see and hear and read 816 00:56:46.690 --> 00:56:52.090 more about these topics, you can find every episode of the customer experience podcast, 817 00:56:52.210 --> 00:57:00.050 including video clips right ups and even embedded audio, by visiting Bombombcom podcast. 818 00:57:00.409 --> 00:57:07.880 That's the word bomb twice. Bomb bombcom slash podcast. My name is 819 00:57:07.000 --> 00:57:14.760 Ethan, but thanks for listening to the BE TOB growth show. Hey, 820 00:57:14.840 --> 00:57:17.670 everybody, logan with sweet fish here. If you're a regular listener of B 821 00:57:17.789 --> 00:57:21.590 Tob Growth, you know that I'm one of the cohosts of this show, 822 00:57:21.909 --> 00:57:24.070 but you may not know that I also head up the sales team here at 823 00:57:24.070 --> 00:57:28.590 sweetfish. So, for those of you in sales or sales offs, I 824 00:57:28.710 --> 00:57:31.900 wanted to take a second to share something that's made us insanely more efficient lately. 825 00:57:32.340 --> 00:57:36.860 Our team has been using lead Iq for the past few months and what 826 00:57:37.019 --> 00:57:40.380 used to take us four hours gathering contact data now takes us only one, 827 00:57:40.739 --> 00:57:45.570 or seventy five percent more efficient. We're able to move faster without bound prospecting 828 00:57:45.809 --> 00:57:51.730 and organizing our campaigns is so much easier than before. I'd highly suggest you 829 00:57:51.809 --> 00:57:54.329 guys check out lead Iq as well. You can check them out at lead 830 00:57:54.369 --> 00:58:00.280 iqcom. That's ee ad iqcom.