Transcript
WEBVTT
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And often, you know, we
choose to disagree with their reality. Customer
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or something like that. Was Really
happened? Productive, kind of, because
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their reality is the reality, their
perception is their reception, is their experience.
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A relationship with the right referral partner
could be a game changer for any
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BEDB company. So what if you
could reverse engineer these relationships at a moment's
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notice, start a podcast, invite
potential referral partners to be guests on your
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show and grow your referral network faster
than ever. Learn more at sweet fish
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Mediacom. You're listening to be tob
growth, a daily podcast for B TOB
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leaders. We've interviewed names you've probably
heard before, like Gary Vannerd truck and
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Simon Senek, but you've probably never
heard from the majority of our guests.
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That's because the bulk of our interviews
aren't with professional speakers and authors. Most
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of our guests are in the trenches, leading sales and marketing teams. They're
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implementing strategy, they're experimenting with tactics, they're building the fastest growing BBB companies
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in the world. My name is
James Carberry. I'm the founder of sweet
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fish media, a podcast agency for
BB brands, and I'm also one of
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the CO hosts of this show.
When we're not interviewing sales and marketing leaders,
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you'll hear stories from behind the scenes
of our own business. Will share
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the ups and downs of our journey
as we attempt to take over the world.
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Just getting well, maybe let's get
into the show. Hey, thank
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you for clicking play on this episode
of the Bab Growth Show. My name
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is Ethan, but I host the
CX series here on the show, you're
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about to spend some time with Mike
Red Board, a gentleman who spent a
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decade at hub spot and is currently
the general manager of their service hub.
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In our conversation he articulates so well
and so clearly how to create and deliver
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a better customer experience, how to
change CX from a function to a feeling,
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how to accept that the customers reality
is the reality, and how we
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can own up to bad experiences,
how we need to unlock the value of
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social proof to close down the trust
gap, doing things that don't scale,
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recording videos to humanize our experience,
and so much more. So let's get
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into it. All right, if
you want to learn how and why to
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turn your best customers into your best
marketers. You're in the right place.
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You're going to love this episode of
the Customer Experience Podcast, because today's guest
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has spent nearly a decade at hub
spot. Most of that time he served
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as a vice president, working in
services and support and scaling the customer team
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to more than five hundred employees.
He's currently a hundred percent focused on customer
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experience as the general manager of the
service hub, hub spots new line of
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business. Mike Red Board, welcome
to the customer experience podcast. Thank you
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so much. Thank you so much, listeners. Thrilled to be here.
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Awesome. I'm so cited for some
of the stuff we're going to go through,
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especially just based on your experience.
I can't imagine the change that you've
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seen over a decade at a company
like hub spot, but we'll get there
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later. Will start where we always
start here, which is your thoughts about
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customer experience. When I say customer
experience, what does it conjure where it's
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characteristics is? To me, the
customer experience is the reality of what any
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one given customer services. So I
think a lot of people in the industry
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of which all hard right, a
lot of people in the industry trying to
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find customer serious kind of operationally like
on a White Board. But to me
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it's the reality. It's the old
little things on the sum of the bits
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of emotion and touches that a customer
has with you and the customer experience is
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really one threat for one customer or
what they feel, but they experienced and
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what their impression is therefore up your
branch. I love it. The you
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know, I've asked US question over
Thirty Times now to smart folks such as
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yourself, and the layer yet to
here's this reality piece that you started on
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is like this is real to that
person. And you know, we can
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sit here internally inside the organization and
debate why that happened or how that happened,
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but the fact of the matter is
we left them with the thoughts and
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the feelings that created a reality for
that person they're going to hold on to
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until we create the opportunity to change
that reality or to amplify in the case
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that it's a good one. Yeah, I think often, you know,
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we choose to disagree with that reality
if we haven't also a customer or something
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like that was really happened. That's
that's not a productive kind of stance to
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say, because their reality is a
reality there. Perction is their perception,
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that is their experience, and so
I think thinking about it as reality actually
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cultivates a bit of culture of like
empathy, which is a super important ast
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you, I would say, the
most important, actually delivering really great customer
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service. Completely agree when I talk
about what I'm learning by having these conversations
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and sharing it internally. It really
is about raising up customer empathy in more
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places. You know, you find
it in spots, in their places,
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where it's really healthy, but you
know it's not. It's not often a
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pervasive or prevailing attitude or pasture in
every seat in the house. But but
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you know, that's what it takes
to deliver an amazing customer experience. So,
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for folks who don't know, talk
a little bit about the service hub,
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kind of the the tagline at the
top of the main page. There
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is software that turns customers into promoters
and service into growth, which is a
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really strong promise. I love all
the themes there, but talk about what
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you're doing there with the service hub. And so if you're going to build
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a druduct come out sweeing on the
tagline right. I think that's for us.
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The service I was a combination of
over twelve years of experience and hup
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spot and trying to grow our own
business and back in two thousand and six
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we started the company. I think
a lot of the way that you define
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yourself to the market, your respective
buyers, was real marketing and you know,
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we Ho spot really pioneered in marketing
and growth through blogging and, you
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know, webinars and stuff like that. I think that wasn't that a lot
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of the way which you find your
brand. It was from your own voice.
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I think now, twelve years on, two thousand and nineteen, or
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its two thousand and twenty like very
soon, I think it's much more your
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customers that to find your brands,
some of their experiences. That matters much
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more than what you say. Really
can't shout them anymore. Every company is
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defined by its reviews, every company's
defined by his customer reference program and so
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we just seeing this really big change
and how people shopping by it has much
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more to do with the outcome of
their peers customers seriences that it those was
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what your sales persons says or what
your partner say. So because of that
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we've now created the product hopefully deliver
delight. Voice serioces really kind of chantel
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that change that we're seeing in the
market to help our customers grow and grow
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better and more long way to love
that you tapped into a theme that I've
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heard many ways. You put added
a different twist on it a little bit.
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Is that is that we're no longer
in control as businesses and companies,
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that it really does belong to the
customer. I'm going to go one layer
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deeper and give you the chance to
talk about something I think you enjoy talking
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about and presenting on and probably that
you teach and share internally as well.
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Talk a little bit about the underpinnings
of the why behind turning our customers into
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our best marketers, and I think
it's around this, this trust gap.
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Can you define the trust gap that
exists and how that plays into all this?
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Yes, what I just describing the
last thought, it was really the
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change that we've seen over the last
decade or so. We're folks have gone
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from trusting companies and trusting sales people
and trusting you as a vendor, to
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really distrusting you and trusting only people
they know and their peers, or perceives
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pure group on review sides or something, and those me they're that represents to
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such change in behavior and and you're
saying under opinion. That is what I
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call the trust gap. So I
see it that you have a lot of
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messages as a marketplace, but people
are just less of us for subt I
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think a lot of us doings fact
that a lot of those messages that we
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as people have been receiving over time, we've noticed our lessons. True.
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So when a company says nowadays,
we did a bit of research recently that
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showed this our state of service.
For Court recently, when a customer says
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we are you know, we saw
for the customer, our customer first,
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only twelve percent of their process actually
believe that right. So the past majority,
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like eighty percent, kind of start
off and you started off on the
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back foot with them because he disbelieved
that your customer first, even if you
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actually are. These is weve be
because in the past had been burned by
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that steamer. And so I think
you have the gap. We're in a
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bit of a dish it. I
think as a sort of industry or a
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community of consumers vendors, where we
don't trust businesses and as a result,
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when we trust other people, we
will for that kind of third party guarantee
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that we're making the right decision to
create certainty because we don't trust business anymore
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to burn so much over the last, you know, decade or fifteen years.
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So good and so well stated.
It reminds me of, you know,
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in seth going off for the television
industrial complex and it's time to move
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away from that. It's like,
okay, so we moved in a lot
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of the stuff that you did that
you were talking about earlier, into taking
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control of distribution, be able to
have our own messages direct a consumer as
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essentially media companies, through all these
various platforms that have opened up. But
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even that now has been so apparently
abused by marketers and others that that it's
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created there. Some of that distrust
is now moved into this new zone.
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Would talk a little bit about some
of those channels. I know you have
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some thoughts around social in the way
that's working, around Google and some of
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the change that they've made that have
made acquisition difficult or demand gend difficult.
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That that makes this community of satisfied
customers so much more valuable in terms of
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creating new customers. Yeah, so
hollow. When I think about growth and
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the way you create growth, there's
certain things, a certain tactics, certain
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points of time that work in,
certain ones that don't, a certain ones
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that are table stakes but are not
like the real beetle movers for your business.
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So I think that, you know, acting as a media company and
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having that Web presents, having a
log doing content marketing as whole table stakes
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nowadays, and I see the really
the interest moving towards social proof and as
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a lot to do with the trust
conversation. So how do you create social
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proof? Like one of the nouns
of social proof? To me, there's
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some kind of obvious stuff, and
that's like putting case studies on your website's
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part of that, you know,
being a media brand, there are having
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a customer reference program where you can
have folks actually talk to each other.
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It's a deeper way to weave that
social proof through, perhaps or stale cycle.
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Then there's, you know, the
way people talk about you on social
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especially for me to see brands,
and you know, there's ways to go
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off the three influencers, but really
when you get that authentic drive and people
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really loving you, feels very different. On our social networks, and I
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think you have review sites, which
are just super key to growth nowadays because
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that's where a lot of us go
and when we search. Those are things
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actually rantings really well in Google because
people trust them and people know that they
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performed well. So those four he
studies, reference program social, proved and
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rew sites. That's really kind of
the key, you nouns, of growth.
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And of course that's all the old
stuff, contem marketing, all that.
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It's still matters, you still have
to do it, but it's become
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a matter of wearing on this new
stuff. Do you want to actually grow
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and compete in a modern world with
a modern customer? Great can you go
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one step deeper on reference programs?
And the reason I ask is, you
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know, we've had various efforts here. You know, whether it's inside our
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support site, you know, by
customer request. Years Ago I started a
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couple facebook groups. You know,
customers like we want a place to connect
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with other people and then and talk
a Lott in. In my experience you
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have to do a lot of lifting
to get them to participate and to speak
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to one another and add value to
each other. Can you share some of
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the things he's maybe learned along the
way with regard to those types of programs?
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Absolutely so. The first thing is
the same thing that you just said.
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Is Hard. Actually producing a successful
customer reference program is quite a bit
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of work and I think that companies
actually should be choosing. Do we want
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to invest, you know, somebody's
salary and time and a customer reference program
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where do we want to invest that
in more ball posts or whatever it is?
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I think there's really a trade off
there, because doing the sprite is
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heavy westing. So the ways of
seeming work are basically to use some magnism
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to identify within your customer base people
who love you. If you have a
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lot of customers or if you deliver
a really good, serious either way you're
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going to have some people, at
least one that's a rabid fan. Really
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want to start with that first one, and that's your very first kind of
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customer reference or reference will point.
Want to find that population, whether it's
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water or a hundred or a thousand, you want to identify them and tag
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them in some way. And then, to your point, you need to
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cultivate and, you know, create
some system that kind of postimated as a
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virtual cycle from that. Has To
be something in it for that. Whether
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it's just being recognized as a star
customer, that could be enough. Sometimes
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it's about it. If you do, if you do one of these calls,
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will give you a fifty dollar Amazon
Gif card. Different things work for
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different businesses. So I want to
identifying them, so to is cultivating them,
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and I think that there is a
fair amount of turnover at thest six
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to s require a lot of upkeep
because it's a big pass. If you
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ask me to get on the phone
or get on a get on a video
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with a Persu procepect of yours,
that's a lot of mind time and so
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folks get burned out on it,
folks turnover and it does take a lot
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of kind of cost effort to keep
it going. But a great customer reference
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program this is one of the strongest
forms of social proof and it's one of
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the strongest ways, I think,
to really compete and win with the modern
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customer in this modern era of trust
gaps. So I would argue that the
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time the marketing department puts toward cultivating
that reference program or any of these other
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kind of social proof tools is really
valuable. But it should be looked at
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on a freight off comparison. Which
W should we make that next layding page,
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to make that next ad or should
we invest the next calory in custom
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references? Awesome. I'm going to
guess, just based on that response that
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you that you have some ideas to
share on this too. On talk a
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little bit, maybe about things that
you've tried and seen or seen some of
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the marketing folks at at help spot
try, or maybe it's even bled into
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services and support at some level.
What are some more passive ways to equip
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customers to be marketers on your behalf? For example, again, just speaking
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from our experience, we have an
affiliate program. We've had it for years.
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Is One of the first things that
some of our first customers started asking
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for, you know, a decade
ago. And yet, you know,
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ninety percent of the revenues generated by
three percent of the the affiliates you know,
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and it's in part because we're not
equipping them well enough and giving them
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stories to share in that kind of
thing. Have you seen other more scaled
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programs that aren't necessarily as personal,
aren't as much of a heavy ask on
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the customer side, but it's still
tapping into that in order to, you
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know, benefit from the the positive
relationships you've filled with customers. Yeah,
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there are definitely ways to do this. So becustomer refers program that we just
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talked about here is quite a high
investment on the customers part to help you
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as a business to grow. And
so if you stopping of it as a
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centrum from high investment on the customers
part to low investment, you can start
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to turn the path maybe even higher. Is like having a customer come on
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site through a reference. But you
know that's quite far behind what's in the
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lower rept to me, that's like
a red feet right, that's a that's
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a quick share on Linkedin or instagram
or something like that. Right. And
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so there's kind of these one quick
digital things that are asyncritus on one and
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low and time investment, and then
there's there's these sacronous, have you duty
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things on the on the other end. And so different things work for different
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businesses. But for us, at
least we've seen works is to understand again
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who those customers are, where your
potential advocates. You identify them for your
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kind of normal business operations, who
you know had a great response after support
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case, who gave you a ten
on your quarterly MPs, whatever it is.
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You get that pool and then you
can kind of just throw them these
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easy opportunities and you'll find out that
pool is likely to uptake on them if
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there's a so if you send them
an email with we just want to saying
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if you want to help us out, here's a lazy teed cut past or
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quick here, and it's a simple, one quick way to do this thing.
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So there's lots of ways to hardest
of power of that epic se group.
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To me, from an operational stand
why? It all starts to the
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same place. Yes, to identify
your advocates. That's through your whole business
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process, and then it just a
question of do you want to make a
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heavy ass or all? I ask, and sometimes it's both. Sometimes are
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different types of customers within that's within
the population that want to do different ones,
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and so whatever the light is,
fossil thing you can do is that's
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on the first set of the spectrum, and then things like customer reference programs
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and all that's the other end.
Awesome. I want to change course a
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little bit you. You know what
you've seen over the decade there. I
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mean just in the way that you're
responding the depths and the clarity of thought
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around it. You're obviously deeply steeped
in a lot of hard one lessons,
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in learnings and observations and a very
forward looking company. I mean, for
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me, hub spot was really important
in my career as I was transitioning out
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of, you know, previous industry
that I'd spent twelve years in. Like
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what skills are transferable. All the
work that hub spot was doing was very
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helpful for me. I've always appreciated
respected your company. Talk about and I'll
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take this some place, you know
five, five or ten minutes from now,
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but talk a little bit about your
career growth and progression within the company
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and I'll tee this up with a
few pieces of information and observations of my
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own. What I feel like a
lot of younger employees wanted all and they
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want it all right now, right
and I'm imagined that there was some patients
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and flexibility and and stuff in your
movement throughout the organization. But you know,
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you've been you've been there almost a
decade in seven different roles, or
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at least by title, it looks
like it's your second company, with a
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compete for a couple years prior to
that, and Undergrad. You're an international
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relations, philosophy and computer science.
Talk about how did you land at hub
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spot? What is your movement been
and what are some of the things that
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you picked up along the way that
have now led you to be the general
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manager of the of the service hub? So, first of all, thank
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you so much for their kind words
on, you know, the ways that
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responsive being able to help you.
That's like the ones my heart. There's
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a lot of what we think of
as our impact over the long term.
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Is that? That's great. I
love that. I mean, I guess
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I'm a story or a series of
maybe short stories here, and that I
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hope you help the wiseners, just
like if you're early on in your career
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you're trying to figure out, you
know, feears into the workforce, what
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to do or if your returns coming
back from, you know, being out
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or having family or something like that. Hopefully some of these stories to see
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you guys. So for me,
I think one thing that I've learned about
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myself over the over the years is
that I really like building things and I
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like going deep on something and building
one thing. So I don't think,
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as I've warned about myself, I'm
not the kind of person over the course
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of my career, is going to
start fifty companies and you know for going
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to be great success. That's not
really me. I'm going to help build
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a few companies hopefully build into something
I'm exceptionally proud of that I want my
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grandkids proud. So there's a little
bit in this first step just knowing who
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you are, and I think you
are not through serious. But you know,
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I think you can try to think
about am I the kind of person
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works with a lot of places and
touches a lot of different things? For
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my sort of very broad or am
I very deep on one thing or a
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my sort of te tapes, I
do a little bit of both. So
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for me, you know, I've
been looking, or in my s after
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a few years of experience, really
looking for a company, like it's really
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sick my teeth and to and crow
with, and I was lucky to find
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up spot an element where I really
just needed a job and it was a
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company that I interview with I felt
excited about. It has buzz around it.
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Candidly, I don't think I knew
what I was getting into when I
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enjoined. Up Spot is about a
hundred person company. In my job is
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new customer on board. I thought
it was a job. I interviewed on
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a Saturday and again on the Monday
and I started working on the next Monday
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because a friend of mine worked here. I used to go parties of people
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that also worked a up spots was
fact two thousand, and so over time,
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though, I feel very fortunate to
have a fall with upsot and basically,
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you know, I feel as though
I've worked at three or four very
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different companies and as you go through
the girl cycles that we have from a
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hundred employees to a thousand, you
know, through an IPO to an international
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company with thousands of employees, you
can really junk that experience off into three
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or four very different types of companies. And I'll tell you working how to
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start up, where it's just madness
every day to trying to keep up and
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close the earth to make it turn
and every single person is just super focus
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in that growth. That's a really
different type of experience, really different type
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of skill set. I'm working at
like a scale up once you sort of
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arrived, and I really trying to
scale that growth in the next level and
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it's less of a purely visceral exercise. We're kind of calling at the earth.
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is not the skill set. It's
more about tactical calling the right strategy
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to the right time and making the
right tactical moves order to grow. So
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I think the companies really change over
time, but I think that one of
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the challenges in that growth actually keeping
the focus on the customer. And so
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the one consistent thing that I've seen, and really from our founders, ran
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a Dar Mesh, that I've seen
over and over and over over the last
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Seconde. is they are just absolutely
obsessed with that customer sperience. The definition
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that I gave you even at the
top of the show around what I think
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customer services. It's the reality of
the single customers spread of their experience that
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really comes from, I think,
our founders pointed view and their obsession with
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that one customer sperience and trying to
make that as great as possible. Over
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time. I've had various shot of
doing various things, but that's really been
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our north star. Even if you
know the skill sets of changed over time.
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We've kind of really learned about myself
through the journey. So good.
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I'm really glad I ask that.
And now I want to get a little
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bit into how of the customers change
to how has the service function changed?
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So for you your initial role was
on boarding new customers. Talk a little
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bit about that journey specifically for people
are thinking about customer success generally and customer
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support or customer service specifically. Like, what are some of the thing you
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know you defined at a company level
kind of these different chunks along the way.
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What are a few things you know
for people that are somewhere along that
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journey is a company? What does
that look like inside a CS organization along
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that path? Yeah, great questions. So I think at the beginning you
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know and you're just in the primority
lose of the business and you're a couple
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of founders, maybe an engineer and
perhaps a salesperson. You know, it's
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we also is the same room.
You know, at that point everybody really
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understands the fabric of the customer experience. You're doing support, you know,
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via test message or once on the
founder cell phones. Right it's like everybody's
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really plugged in. And then there's
a very interesting moment that happens that business
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hires the first person whose job it
is is just working customers. You hire,
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you know, a DP of customer
success. We hired that support rap
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was just going to quer the Q
at the end of the day, whatever
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it is, because now what you've
done is you take that responsibility, this
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kind of holly responsibility of customer experience, and you've moved it from founder well
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to employee level. That's first really
big change. That I think is a
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super interesting one of the means that
first hire is really, really key because
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that person is also going to really
define the genetics of your you know,
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of Your Service Department and the major
of the customer studience after that. So
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that's really, really key. On
the other key moment that happens after that,
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and then there's one more after following
this one, is that you go
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from one person to a set of
people and those set of people start to
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do different functions. So you hire
a support person or two and they just
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kind of did stuff and then one
day you wake up and you realize,
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Oh, I have one person whose
job it is to make our new customer
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successful and I've another person whose job
it is is to clear the support.
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You and I specialized right and that
point of specialization is interesting because you start
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to develop like expertise. You start
to develop the way at your company of
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doing, say, on board,
of doing the support, and I think
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that's where you start to develop practices
and you start to get really opinionated about,
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you know, what is the new
customer experience look like at my company,
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and that's a very exciting time.
And then that's stage too. So
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it goes from just everybody those support
started to get specialized, and thet's say
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three is really about, I guess, the customer experience and customer success customer
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outcomes becoming the culture of the company. And so there's a really kind of
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a third level here where customer experience
becomes the core of the mindset of every
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single person and everything you do you
track back to customer sperience. Every time
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you do a sale, every way
that you make decisions about your upcoming and
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you strategy, whatever it is,
really value the customer experience and you don't
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kind of let the tail wagon dog
was saying, Oh, how do we
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just grow a little more, we'll
deal with that customer than later. You
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really put the customer first ass scale
that. I think that third part is
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the hardest thing to do, because
the first one, hiring that first round,
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and second one, specializing, all
of those happened to you on your
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journey to growth. But the third
one, of really making customer serience the
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centerpiece of your entire business rategy.
That's effort from your founders or your executive
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team. All that, I mean
the right hires along the way. A
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lot of things have to come together
and make that work. I think doing
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that is really what different is amazing
companies and modern era from okay less.
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I would to work in a basing
companies that really care about customers, but
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the customer sperience center of everything.
To do so, how do? You've
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already mentioned several ways that that is
that third piece. Is the thing.
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We're at that door right like you
know, we're at that point at where
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maybe a hundred and forty people and
we're at that point where we have a
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lot of folks with direct customer experience
that are, you know, a few
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months on the job and a few
years into their career. And so how
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do you know? How do you
bring back all of the essence, like
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the deep motivations and the intentional that
and you mentioned, you know, the
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founders hiring. Well, I assume
that it's baked into some of the onboarding.
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But what are some other practical ways
that people can can infuse the rest
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of the organization with a sensitivity toward
customer experience and its value? And again,
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just double back on customer empathy.
How do we order some practical ways
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that you are raising that up inside
the organization day to day, week to
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week? I love that question.
Love it especially because you use the word
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sensitivity in there and that's really what
it is. And so what we want
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to do is you want to cultivate
a culture that is sensitive to the customer.
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And the way you do that,
the way you create that, I
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think the necessary depths of understanding to
have that, like fine great sensitivity,
403
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is you have to actually do things
that don't scale right. So, like
404
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when I was on boarding customers of
house fought, I spent eight hours a
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day on the phone with them and
I would touch, you know, whatever,
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a hundred customers in a week.
I was really sensitive to the customer
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sperience. When I was a director
of support, you know, with a
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fifty person team. That was kind
of in my review mirror and a sim
409
00:25:41.240 --> 00:25:44.759
more time and spreadsheets. I got
really good at interviewing and hiring the use
410
00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:47.960
of my time. I was a
good director of support. But that sensitivities
411
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:49.869
the customer kind of fades away.
If you can lean back on it,
412
00:25:51.150 --> 00:25:52.710
you know it starts again the review
or gets a little worrier. And so
413
00:25:52.789 --> 00:25:56.430
the way that I think you really
stay in touch, even if you come
414
00:25:56.549 --> 00:26:00.509
from a place where you were superb, like inbedded in the customer serience,
415
00:26:00.549 --> 00:26:03.380
way you stay in touch is you
go back there, you spentime with customers.
416
00:26:03.539 --> 00:26:07.339
You don't just listen to the customer
calls, you actually are the person
417
00:26:07.420 --> 00:26:11.500
doing the calls. You you have
to yourself respond to the question from the
418
00:26:11.539 --> 00:26:15.299
customer about why Ez he didn't work
or why did this single this way or,
419
00:26:15.579 --> 00:26:18.420
you know, listen to their hackaways
about something and the fact that they
420
00:26:18.460 --> 00:26:22.890
display something else not to create that
emotional state in yourself and have a really
421
00:26:22.890 --> 00:26:25.890
high Tud relationship with the customer.
So I tactical level, what can you
422
00:26:25.970 --> 00:26:30.289
do to create that sensitivity on your
executive team? Talk to a customer every
423
00:26:30.369 --> 00:26:33.200
month as a team. It doesn't
scale. It's the world's most expensive support
424
00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:37.839
call in certain ways, but do
it because it will create a sensitivity and
425
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:41.319
it will, like I shake you
out of your normalcy and it back into
426
00:26:41.319 --> 00:26:45.480
the customers reality. Add to the
customer serience. If you're in product right
427
00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:49.069
and you're doing research and you know
it's kind of quantitative, make sure for
428
00:26:49.230 --> 00:26:53.349
coloring it with quality of research and
talk to some customers and feel what they
429
00:26:53.390 --> 00:26:56.750
feel or do say visits right.
It's sebally empathy in that sensitivity and a
430
00:26:56.829 --> 00:27:00.269
lot of that is doing things.
It's a scale. So why I see
431
00:27:00.309 --> 00:27:03.819
our team doing this, for our
secute sends actually quite a bit of time
432
00:27:03.140 --> 00:27:07.460
with customers one on one. And
you know, there's one way to look
433
00:27:07.500 --> 00:27:10.579
at it like wow, that's a
really inefficient use of highly the people's time.
434
00:27:10.859 --> 00:27:12.140
The other way is that's the thing
that makes us us. We would
435
00:27:12.140 --> 00:27:15.930
fail without that and I think that, I think that's second wrote that that
436
00:27:15.089 --> 00:27:19.130
is like the necessary way to cultivate
sensitivity in the upathe is just gottis spend
437
00:27:19.170 --> 00:27:22.450
the time with costs, just people
to people. It's great. It's one
438
00:27:22.490 --> 00:27:29.089
of my curiosities. Again that motivates
me within these conversations on the customer experience.
439
00:27:29.210 --> 00:27:33.359
Podcasts is doing the unscalable and a
certain point maybe you do figure out
440
00:27:33.400 --> 00:27:37.079
how to scale it. But I
think so many people are looking to automate
441
00:27:37.599 --> 00:27:42.720
and scale. I'm using your quotes
for people not watching video clips, which
442
00:27:42.759 --> 00:27:47.829
you can do by visiting bombombcom slash
podcast. We want to scale these things,
443
00:27:48.349 --> 00:27:51.789
maybe prematurely. I think there are
some things to your point. There's
444
00:27:51.789 --> 00:27:53.750
some things that that maybe shouldn't be
scaled and there are other things that you
445
00:27:53.829 --> 00:27:57.309
can just push to the very,
very edge. It's like, okay,
446
00:27:57.859 --> 00:28:02.660
cost benefit not there talk a little
bit about that, I guess, from
447
00:28:02.660 --> 00:28:07.940
a success and service and support standpoint. Human touch versus tech touch, how
448
00:28:07.940 --> 00:28:10.900
do you think about it? Is
Is it? Is it purely a calculated
449
00:28:11.059 --> 00:28:14.970
piece or like, what are some
of your thoughts around when to be truly
450
00:28:15.130 --> 00:28:21.809
personal and then when to personalize?
So I love people. I also love
451
00:28:21.849 --> 00:28:23.769
as machines. Right, so I
come on, I come on both sides
452
00:28:23.890 --> 00:28:29.279
this. Of course, they have
different people have different skills that machines,
453
00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:30.599
whichines are great, a something.
Some people are great at somethings. So
454
00:28:30.759 --> 00:28:36.279
to me, people are actually insanely
flexible and they they're very actile. You
455
00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:38.119
can walk in in the morning and
say, like not, your job is
456
00:28:38.200 --> 00:28:42.029
to do this thing, but yesterday
was this sec that's much more difficult with
457
00:28:42.150 --> 00:28:45.150
the machine, but at least a
relatively simple machine that you've just stood up.
458
00:28:45.190 --> 00:28:48.710
But people are really flessible and they're
very actual. Machines are great at
459
00:28:48.750 --> 00:28:52.309
doing the same task over and over
and they're really good at doing things that
460
00:28:52.509 --> 00:28:55.819
people, you know, kind of
don't want to do. Also right.
461
00:28:56.019 --> 00:28:59.339
So to me, how do you
say that then what people are good at
462
00:28:59.380 --> 00:29:02.259
and what machines are good at and
create a customer success strategy? That pen's
463
00:29:02.339 --> 00:29:06.140
books. And the answer is,
if you have questions about what the your
464
00:29:06.220 --> 00:29:08.940
process ought to be, so like
say, let's take a new customer making
465
00:29:08.980 --> 00:29:12.009
that successful. If you have questions
about what it takes to make a customer
466
00:29:12.049 --> 00:29:15.329
successful, that is not a job
for a machine. That's a job for
467
00:29:15.450 --> 00:29:18.890
human. Yes, and Mal can
help write, but a human could just
468
00:29:18.049 --> 00:29:21.730
talk to twenty customers are probably figured
it out over the course of a week
469
00:29:21.970 --> 00:29:25.039
in a much heaper and more actual
way. So that's kind of the beginning
470
00:29:25.079 --> 00:29:26.640
of the story. Often starts some
people when you're trying to Hask those questions
471
00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:30.960
of what ought we to do.
Then once you know what you ought to
472
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:33.400
do, then it's time to like
kind of blend people in machines and some
473
00:29:33.480 --> 00:29:37.750
really cool cyborg thing and start outment
the forductivity of people and start to move
474
00:29:37.829 --> 00:29:41.589
some of the simpler work. More
people work off of their place. So
475
00:29:41.670 --> 00:29:44.630
they found there's an email that they
send every time. It works really well.
476
00:29:44.869 --> 00:29:48.710
Cool. Let's not have the sent
the emails which comes from a crm
477
00:29:48.750 --> 00:29:52.309
or websycle manager smouche or something like
that. Over time, as a people
478
00:29:52.390 --> 00:29:53.900
figure out more and more things and
more and more of a false as to
479
00:29:53.940 --> 00:29:59.259
kind of like repeatable, successful stuff. Machines are great at that. Over
480
00:29:59.420 --> 00:30:02.500
time, in fact, even that
whole process, perhaps on boarding itself,
481
00:30:02.539 --> 00:30:04.500
might get fully automated. But I'm
a big fan of really starting with people.
482
00:30:04.740 --> 00:30:07.930
To people are actually and flexible,
but overtime larying and machines and more
483
00:30:07.970 --> 00:30:11.970
and more over time that becomes more
mechanized. The trick in that because that
484
00:30:12.130 --> 00:30:18.049
sometimes there are changes that happen,
either exhaustion of changes and the market place
485
00:30:18.250 --> 00:30:21.049
or, you know, the way
humans are behaving, which talked about at
486
00:30:21.170 --> 00:30:22.680
a little bit of the front of
the podcast, or maybe you change your
487
00:30:22.680 --> 00:30:26.279
pricing or your packaging or some new
competitor and that can really come in and
488
00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:30.000
create like some waves that use that
have to go back in with people and
489
00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:33.759
refigure out. That's beginning of this
process. So to me, start with
490
00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:37.910
people, because of flexible you automate
over time and you will eat fun of
491
00:30:37.910 --> 00:30:41.309
your processes individually somewhere off that spectrum. And then you need to kind of
492
00:30:41.349 --> 00:30:45.630
have a hygiene process for making sure
that inside, yes, these are good
493
00:30:45.829 --> 00:30:48.470
and you're not fooling yourself into thinking
that you've got it all figured out.
494
00:30:48.710 --> 00:30:52.819
Saying we're saying in touch with the
customer and you really are key to understand
495
00:30:52.859 --> 00:30:56.019
what the experience because even when you
have automated a lot of their way so
496
00:30:56.180 --> 00:31:00.980
good that in that hygiene process is
so easy to miss this idea that we
497
00:31:00.059 --> 00:31:03.329
do need to carve out the time
or to make a process to double back
498
00:31:03.450 --> 00:31:07.210
and review and make sure that this
all works. The way I the way
499
00:31:07.250 --> 00:31:11.529
I heard, that's grossly oversimplified and
if anyone enjoyed that as much as I
500
00:31:11.650 --> 00:31:14.930
did, just hit the bounce back
button and listen to that response again,
501
00:31:14.970 --> 00:31:17.769
because there's a lot of really good
stuff in there. To really dumb it
502
00:31:17.890 --> 00:31:21.079
down. It's the machine is going
to operate against a rule set. The
503
00:31:21.160 --> 00:31:25.160
rule set needs to be written and
humans are in the best position to learn
504
00:31:25.319 --> 00:31:29.160
and take some of this complex information, put it together, the nuance and
505
00:31:29.240 --> 00:31:33.750
the detail folded together into the rule
sets that the machine operates by. Periodically
506
00:31:33.789 --> 00:31:36.910
check in and make sure that the
rule set still applies and that the machine
507
00:31:36.950 --> 00:31:38.710
is still doing a job. I'm
going to hit you with a couple other
508
00:31:40.150 --> 00:31:42.589
just kind of themes, are high
level questions, before wrapping the way I
509
00:31:42.630 --> 00:31:48.019
always like to wrap the show,
and one of them is based on a
510
00:31:48.099 --> 00:31:51.220
word that I saw on the service
hub website. Is something I've been thinking
511
00:31:51.259 --> 00:31:52.900
about quite a bit. There are
number of books written with this in the
512
00:31:53.019 --> 00:31:57.059
title. Talk a little bit about
friction and friction less, talk about the
513
00:31:57.099 --> 00:32:00.140
friction less experience, and what triggered
that for me was that you know,
514
00:32:00.259 --> 00:32:05.569
this blend of both and human and
machine is how I think we get best
515
00:32:05.609 --> 00:32:08.609
to friction less. But we are
some of your thoughts around friction frictionless.
516
00:32:09.170 --> 00:32:14.569
Am I you? Fristes is a
piece of the customer experience and something customers
517
00:32:14.609 --> 00:32:17.680
field around the experience, sometimes for
ups. So, for instance, if
518
00:32:17.720 --> 00:32:22.920
I want to engage with your company
to accomplish a certain thing and I can't
519
00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:27.079
do it the way that I want. I see is frisure. So it's
520
00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:30.589
really a it's very customer centric kind
of things, first thing, and different
521
00:32:30.630 --> 00:32:34.869
customers and different business of different definitions
of what friction is. There's not a
522
00:32:34.950 --> 00:32:37.109
one size at all. Christ's,
if I wanted to, you know,
523
00:32:37.269 --> 00:32:42.470
sign out for spotify, I don't
want to talk to a person. spotify
524
00:32:42.630 --> 00:32:45.819
maybe talk to a person. I
don't for it. Having considered that friction,
525
00:32:45.900 --> 00:32:47.700
how I would be less likely to
sign up a spotify wine honest and
526
00:32:47.740 --> 00:32:52.059
cancel my spotify account has talk to
a person. Have user up friction.
527
00:32:52.140 --> 00:32:54.299
That would make me more upset on
the way up the door. But I
528
00:32:54.380 --> 00:32:58.730
wanted to buy up spot enterprise class
software in order to do, you know,
529
00:32:58.849 --> 00:33:01.650
crm or help desk for something,
I might want to talk to a
530
00:33:01.769 --> 00:33:06.130
person and in fact, if you
push to a self service versus experience,
531
00:33:06.329 --> 00:33:08.009
I might not like it and might
actually want to talk to a human being
532
00:33:08.049 --> 00:33:12.130
in order to make my decision.
And so that's a case in which sometimes
533
00:33:12.369 --> 00:33:15.960
buying and doing that self service,
that's about reducing frictions of machines. Sometimes
534
00:33:15.960 --> 00:33:20.640
about reducing friction by, in a
like human top so once again it's understanding
535
00:33:20.720 --> 00:33:23.319
your customer in the moment, what
they actually need and finding the path of
536
00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:27.990
reast recess for that. Anything else
is creating friction. So for different businesses
537
00:33:28.069 --> 00:33:30.869
it's really different things. There's consider
purchases. Will consider purchases. There's times
538
00:33:30.869 --> 00:33:34.750
where we really want to consultation and
advice, there's times we want to be
539
00:33:34.789 --> 00:33:37.630
less of loaners, do what we
know is right. And I think understanding
540
00:33:37.670 --> 00:33:40.349
your customer or reading your segments of
customers to sub personas within your customer base
541
00:33:40.579 --> 00:33:44.660
and try, and really I think
the key Verbus, to match the way
542
00:33:44.700 --> 00:33:47.059
your customers want to be treated with
the channels and the mechanisms that you offer.
543
00:33:47.380 --> 00:33:51.420
That's how you reduce friction. You
do that for frictional selling. There's
544
00:33:51.420 --> 00:33:53.579
a lot of ways to reduce friction
in the sales process. Do that for
545
00:33:53.859 --> 00:33:58.210
frictional a service so that people can
get their own answers when they want but
546
00:33:58.289 --> 00:34:00.609
also have the help they eat when
they need it. And there's all sorts
547
00:34:00.609 --> 00:34:04.210
of ways across the wife stable to
reduce friction and I think nowadays the brand
548
00:34:04.369 --> 00:34:07.010
with the least friction went that's how
you created your customer experience. That's how
549
00:34:07.050 --> 00:34:10.000
you grow as how you beat the
competition. It's less about even having the
550
00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:14.360
best product, it's more about having
the best experience. Were Bou having the
551
00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:19.719
lowest first hundred percent agree. That's
an easy story for a satisfied customer to
552
00:34:19.840 --> 00:34:22.960
tell. Right like I went in
with this opportunity or this problem or this
553
00:34:23.039 --> 00:34:25.869
challenge, and guess what it was? Unlike all the other ones. It
554
00:34:27.030 --> 00:34:30.030
just like got resolved or I got
to completion right away and it was easier
555
00:34:30.110 --> 00:34:34.309
than I thought because of the expectations
around a lot of the stuff are so
556
00:34:34.670 --> 00:34:37.659
low and in this friction zone is
like moving so quickly. There's a lot
557
00:34:37.699 --> 00:34:42.900
of progress there. So I think
expectations will change rapidly, but you know,
558
00:34:42.980 --> 00:34:46.659
we're still maybe in a window where
it's not that hard to exceed expectations.
559
00:34:47.219 --> 00:34:52.820
The other place I wanted to go
here quickly is video. So you
560
00:34:52.889 --> 00:34:55.530
know we turns out we both sound
a lot of simple, personal, unscripted
561
00:34:55.570 --> 00:35:00.489
videos to connect and communicate with people
more effectively. We swap videos prior to
562
00:35:00.570 --> 00:35:01.530
this call. So when you came
out, I was like hey, it's
563
00:35:01.570 --> 00:35:05.769
Mike. Talk a little bit about
why you like video and maybe even how
564
00:35:05.809 --> 00:35:09.440
you've seen it be successful within your
within your support efforts. I just see
565
00:35:09.480 --> 00:35:15.000
the progress is videos technology over the
last five years or so so really fast
566
00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:19.480
and it's a fantastic way to humanize
experiences in a world where I think we're
567
00:35:19.519 --> 00:35:23.309
really hungry for human experiences. And
so we started probably way back in two
568
00:35:23.349 --> 00:35:27.989
thousand and fourteen or so and our
support team using video as a tool,
569
00:35:28.070 --> 00:35:31.510
especially when we realize that we're doo
emails into a twist it. But man,
570
00:35:31.590 --> 00:35:35.190
this could get really nartly. Let
me record a too minute. We
571
00:35:35.230 --> 00:35:37.500
called them video voice sales. Kind
of sent the wall with a little bit
572
00:35:37.539 --> 00:35:42.820
of test and those just like the
opportunity for surprises of light and those it's
573
00:35:42.820 --> 00:35:45.260
just a base. People don't expect
it. It's so novel enough that it
574
00:35:45.380 --> 00:35:51.449
kind of feels new and fresh to
the recipient and it just it can help
575
00:35:51.489 --> 00:35:54.929
you get over so many, I
think, hurdles that technology imposes, like
576
00:35:55.010 --> 00:35:59.050
when you communicate for email, there's
always that channeling. Read the email.
577
00:35:59.250 --> 00:36:01.010
How should I response? Should I
craft this? There's all this like inner
578
00:36:01.090 --> 00:36:05.679
monolog us, a sense with all
that when you're on a just a phone
579
00:36:05.719 --> 00:36:07.519
call, you never know what's going
on with somebody like moming something on the
580
00:36:07.639 --> 00:36:10.639
side or whatever. Like synchronous video
and get get away from that. You
581
00:36:10.679 --> 00:36:15.159
at least somebody a voicemail. You
don't know if you're actual communicating what they
582
00:36:15.159 --> 00:36:17.239
need, but when your company with
video in your face and intonation in your
583
00:36:17.239 --> 00:36:22.110
voice clusterface, it just really enrichested. So we just seen video as a
584
00:36:22.269 --> 00:36:27.949
tremendously useful ways to shortcut, like
in safe time, the simultaneously actually get
585
00:36:27.949 --> 00:36:30.230
better. How it comes for everybody. It's just like good things come to
586
00:36:30.349 --> 00:36:32.900
those that are more human, and
video nowadays, I think, is a
587
00:36:32.980 --> 00:36:37.619
technology that really enables human as well. Who knows those nast maybe it's like,
588
00:36:37.739 --> 00:36:39.179
you know, I went to reality, or or you are or something
589
00:36:39.219 --> 00:36:42.300
like. There's some mess. That
will be the thing. But I think
590
00:36:42.340 --> 00:36:45.139
right now, at this moment of
prober, for the next couple of years
591
00:36:45.139 --> 00:36:47.610
at least, videos a really,
really great way to humanize the sales experience,
592
00:36:47.690 --> 00:36:52.329
support experience, whatever it is.
It just like just shortcut a lot
593
00:36:52.369 --> 00:36:54.010
of the stuff and just wort personal
person to get to where you want to
594
00:36:54.050 --> 00:36:58.449
go. So good and all it
takes is getting past that. You know
595
00:36:58.530 --> 00:37:01.800
that that tense, that challenge that
people feel in crafting the right response.
596
00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:05.119
And did I get the tone right? You know, there's the same thing
597
00:37:05.199 --> 00:37:07.639
with getting comfortable on camera. But
once he move past that. I love
598
00:37:07.719 --> 00:37:12.840
what you offered their first that the
person that's more human wins. But then
599
00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:17.030
also you can save time while improving
the outcome once you get past that basic
600
00:37:17.110 --> 00:37:22.230
comfort of recording and sending videos like
this has been awesome, the ton of
601
00:37:22.269 --> 00:37:23.469
value. I know I kind of
took it a little bit all over the
602
00:37:23.590 --> 00:37:28.269
place, but I know that people
are going to enjoy the conversation and playback
603
00:37:28.309 --> 00:37:30.739
very very much. Before we go, I always love to give you the
604
00:37:30.860 --> 00:37:35.500
opportunity to think or mention someone who's
had a positive impact on your life or
605
00:37:35.579 --> 00:37:39.380
career and to mention a company that
is doing customer experience really, really well.
606
00:37:40.099 --> 00:37:44.449
Yeah, so I think one of
the people that's had a really formative
607
00:37:44.489 --> 00:37:49.650
role in my a lot of the
conversation we've had on this podcast today is
608
00:37:49.849 --> 00:37:52.849
Brian, my CEO, and you
know he's somebody that's had a incredibly type
609
00:37:52.889 --> 00:37:57.929
focus on the customer to throughout our
growth, but he's also somebody who you
610
00:37:58.010 --> 00:38:00.840
know I've been in. He's only
close content with for not ten years and
611
00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:04.480
he's one of the most adoptable human
beings on the planet and I just constantly
612
00:38:04.519 --> 00:38:07.360
impressed by his consistency of focus,
with the new tools and new levels that
613
00:38:07.400 --> 00:38:10.360
he seen able to reach in his
job function, which I seel the software
614
00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:15.110
company has changed from my founder.
So now you know, let's see your
615
00:38:15.309 --> 00:38:19.269
global public company and it's just straying
interests to watch them. But also watched
616
00:38:19.309 --> 00:38:22.590
the customer focus. He's got a
great mentor me nowing you make the right
617
00:38:22.630 --> 00:38:24.670
decisions. And you know, Storty
Crow my career too. So That's on
618
00:38:24.750 --> 00:38:28.139
the mentor side. A lot of
what I have to say is sort of,
619
00:38:28.179 --> 00:38:30.820
you know, share with Brian in
terms of totality, right. And
620
00:38:30.900 --> 00:38:34.500
then on the on the customer side, thin, excuse me, the O,
621
00:38:34.619 --> 00:38:37.059
the business side. That I think
a really interesting I find that the
622
00:38:37.139 --> 00:38:43.489
place where customers series is most important
is where the thing that you're selling is
623
00:38:43.530 --> 00:38:45.329
a little bit of a commodity,
right, getting a bunch of places,
624
00:38:45.530 --> 00:38:51.050
and the more competitive the industry,
the more husberry serious today is causing her
625
00:38:51.050 --> 00:38:53.570
to be winners stand out whener sometimes. So when I look at that,
626
00:38:53.690 --> 00:38:57.559
I think if some industries that are
kind of like old school industries, right.
627
00:38:57.800 --> 00:39:00.280
I look at like the mattress industry
and what Casper or like, you
628
00:39:00.360 --> 00:39:04.599
know, those kind of quick summer
mattresses are doing with customer series. Maybe,
629
00:39:04.639 --> 00:39:07.320
sure, you have any great experience. But an industry that I really,
630
00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:09.829
really like, it's actually the makeup
industry and there's two brands in there
631
00:39:09.869 --> 00:39:13.429
want to call out in particular.
Want is called Gipsy. They want to
632
00:39:13.469 --> 00:39:15.869
call blass, right, and these
brands are selling meg up and they have
633
00:39:15.989 --> 00:39:20.590
a brand identity. They have such
an amazing pull through of that brand identity
634
00:39:20.869 --> 00:39:23.659
from their website, their instagram to
their service or twitter. It is just
635
00:39:23.780 --> 00:39:27.659
so good sistem. You feel like
you're talking to a person that has a
636
00:39:27.780 --> 00:39:31.059
real identity. I think it's on
an amazing job of cultivating themselves in terms
637
00:39:31.099 --> 00:39:36.579
of personas and delivering a customer serious
really in line with what their customers want.
638
00:39:36.739 --> 00:39:39.489
So I love those industries. I
love those friends great recommendations. Hey,
639
00:39:39.769 --> 00:39:44.369
if someone wants to follow up with
you because they want to see what
640
00:39:44.409 --> 00:39:46.889
you're sharing and and connect and communicate
with you, or they want to check
641
00:39:46.889 --> 00:39:51.090
out the service hub or they want
to check out hub spot worse some places
642
00:39:51.130 --> 00:39:52.960
that people can connect with you and
the work that you're doing. Yeah,
643
00:39:52.960 --> 00:39:55.159
so if you want to get in
touch with we have loves talking to you
644
00:39:55.199 --> 00:39:59.039
guys, especially if you made it
through the entire podcast. Let's definitely talk.
645
00:39:59.239 --> 00:40:00.960
Follow me on twitter at Red Board, my last name or winked in
646
00:40:01.239 --> 00:40:04.400
easy to find them. If you
want to learn more about more about the
647
00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:07.590
hub spost service, then go to
help spot on Cam Service. It's a
648
00:40:07.630 --> 00:40:09.710
bunch of information out. Again,
be happy to talk to anybody about their
649
00:40:10.030 --> 00:40:14.630
rooms, customers, growing, stealing
teams, sort us off or whatever.
650
00:40:14.710 --> 00:40:17.150
I love this stuff and thank you, guys for US awesome and I do
651
00:40:17.309 --> 00:40:22.179
want to double down on what might
just shared with you as a listener.
652
00:40:22.260 --> 00:40:24.420
If you got this deep into the
episode, you probably have a ton of
653
00:40:24.539 --> 00:40:29.460
ideas. Mike has just made himself
available to you and I'll say it's someone
654
00:40:29.500 --> 00:40:32.340
who does the same thing. Not
Nearly enough people take people up on the
655
00:40:32.380 --> 00:40:36.809
opportunity. So I know he sincere
about and so if you have some some
656
00:40:37.010 --> 00:40:39.289
ideas or questions or anything, reach
out to Mike. Thank you so much
657
00:40:39.289 --> 00:40:43.929
for listening and thank you for your
time, Mike. Mass of pleasures.
658
00:40:45.650 --> 00:40:50.320
I hope you enjoyed that conversation?
If so, definitely connect with Michael redboard
659
00:40:50.400 --> 00:40:53.719
on Linkedin. You can also connect
with me Ethan Butte. That spelled beute.
660
00:40:54.239 --> 00:40:57.559
And if you want to go deeper
on this episode or any other,
661
00:40:57.840 --> 00:41:01.039
you can always watch video clips and
get summaries, takeaways links out to some
662
00:41:01.159 --> 00:41:07.030
of the things we talked about by
visiting Bombombcom podcast. Thanks again for listening
663
00:41:07.269 --> 00:41:14.550
to the B tob growth show.
We totally get it. We publish a
664
00:41:14.710 --> 00:41:17.190
ton of content on this podcast and
it can be a lot to keep up
665
00:41:17.190 --> 00:41:22.539
with. That's why we've started the
BETB growth big three, a no fluff
666
00:41:22.619 --> 00:41:27.059
email that boils down our three biggest
takeaways from an entire week of episodes.
667
00:41:27.500 --> 00:41:34.369
Sign up today at Sweet Fish Mediacom
big three. That sweet PHISH MEDIACOM Big
668
00:41:34.690 -->
Three