#CEO 10: You’re a CEO, But Don’t Think You Need Sales Skills Huh? w/ Jim Hemmer

WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.960 --> 00:00:08.029 You know, the lesson really is become an expert, master your craft. 2 00:00:08.150 --> 00:00:11.669 And whether you're a sales guy or you're a CEO, or if you really 3 00:00:11.710 --> 00:00:14.509 anybody you know, I think one of the important lessons is take the time 4 00:00:14.509 --> 00:00:19.350 to become an expert, master your craft. Welcome back to another episode of 5 00:00:19.429 --> 00:00:22.339 the CEO Series on the be tob growth show. I'm your host, John 6 00:00:22.379 --> 00:00:26.620 Belazier, editor of the CEO Playbook and online publication full of stories for real 7 00:00:26.739 --> 00:00:31.660 CEOS and practical sage advice for founders and ceeos of high world companies. Today 8 00:00:31.780 --> 00:00:35.770 will be talking about enterprise sales. Before we get started, though, let 9 00:00:35.770 --> 00:00:38.450 me tell you a story. A few years back then, the previous company 10 00:00:38.490 --> 00:00:43.049 I was running, we were selling enterprise software to large insurance markets. My 11 00:00:43.130 --> 00:00:47.170 enterprise accounts team had met me in our New York Office for a final briefing 12 00:00:47.409 --> 00:00:51.840 before big meeting we had planned after our usual grilling sessions and pack my laptop 13 00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:55.280 and some choice tools for the job. I loaded a pair of red VIC 14 00:00:55.399 --> 00:00:59.200 firth drumsticks. You've ever use those? They're really cool in my briefcase and 15 00:00:59.240 --> 00:01:03.079 I taped up a box of a dozen bright orange made to stick books that 16 00:01:03.200 --> 00:01:06.069 were written by the heath brothers. I love those guys. These were the 17 00:01:06.230 --> 00:01:10.909 props for what my sales team lovingly called the Bela's are show. When they 18 00:01:10.989 --> 00:01:12.750 brought me, the CEO, into a meeting, it was game on. 19 00:01:14.230 --> 00:01:18.390 The belads are show usually included just to write mix of strategic vision, audience 20 00:01:18.510 --> 00:01:23.260 participation, storytelling, product demos and finally, the magic moment, as Nancy 21 00:01:23.260 --> 00:01:27.060 Darte, best selling author of slideology and resonate, likes to call it a 22 00:01:27.219 --> 00:01:32.420 star moment. It something they always remember. We presented to a room full 23 00:01:32.459 --> 00:01:37.370 of senior executives during their strategic offsite. There were several vendors slated to deliver 24 00:01:37.530 --> 00:01:41.329 pitches, including some direct competitors of ours, and it was our chance to 25 00:01:41.409 --> 00:01:46.930 shine. We delivered a stellar presentation about transformation, including rich customer case studies 26 00:01:47.049 --> 00:01:49.319 and an eye popping demo. We did not stop there. At the close 27 00:01:49.400 --> 00:01:53.519 of the presentation, I did something unexpected. I opened my briefcase and I 28 00:01:53.719 --> 00:01:57.359 pulled out my set of drumsticks. I asked for a little more time and 29 00:01:57.519 --> 00:02:00.950 indulgence from the audience, and our host was reluctant to give it to me, 30 00:02:01.150 --> 00:02:06.030 but intrigued enough to say yes. I paired up two of the senior 31 00:02:06.069 --> 00:02:08.909 executives in the room and I gave one of them the drumsticks and asked him 32 00:02:09.030 --> 00:02:13.270 to tap a tune I had written on a card. It was the happy 33 00:02:13.310 --> 00:02:16.300 birthday song. The second person's job was to guess the song and after a 34 00:02:16.460 --> 00:02:22.259 few failed attempts, the participant assigned with guessing was unable to name the tune. 35 00:02:22.460 --> 00:02:25.819 And then stop the exercise and explain the point. I said to truly 36 00:02:25.979 --> 00:02:31.050 transform your company, you must think differently, otherwise you'll miss the music. 37 00:02:31.610 --> 00:02:35.449 I then opened the box, quietly, sitting in the corner of the room, 38 00:02:35.610 --> 00:02:38.449 and handed each person a copy of the bright orange books I had brought 39 00:02:38.490 --> 00:02:43.490 with me. I explain how a chapter in the book was the inspiration for 40 00:02:43.530 --> 00:02:46.879 the exercise that I had just delivered. That magic moment helped me open the 41 00:02:46.960 --> 00:02:50.759 door to this account wide open and it won us a multimillion dollar deal, 42 00:02:51.080 --> 00:02:53.039 and it was probably one of the largest in our company's history. There's a 43 00:02:53.039 --> 00:02:59.509 lot of countent out there focused on Betab sales strategy's for companies, primarily selling 44 00:02:59.669 --> 00:03:05.509 to SMB markets, but large account enterprise selling, especially selling enterprise software, 45 00:03:05.629 --> 00:03:08.750 business software. It's really an art and enterprise. Selling is all about finding 46 00:03:08.909 --> 00:03:15.819 pain, connecting with people and delivering those magic moments. The number one salesperson 47 00:03:15.939 --> 00:03:19.979 in any company is the CEO, and if you're the CEO, you need 48 00:03:20.020 --> 00:03:23.060 to understand this critical principle, among others. Today I'm joined by my friend 49 00:03:23.060 --> 00:03:28.650 and serial CEO, Jim Hammer. Jim has been president and CEO of four 50 00:03:28.729 --> 00:03:32.129 different companies and had multiple successful exits. He has sold in a prize solutions 51 00:03:32.169 --> 00:03:38.289 into several industries, fortune five hundred accounts and has a keen focus on strategy, 52 00:03:38.490 --> 00:03:42.560 product market fit and building successful go to market initiatives to drive growth. 53 00:03:42.759 --> 00:03:46.439 He has worked with notable venture capital and private equity firms and has raised capital 54 00:03:46.599 --> 00:03:52.560 on multiple occasions and probably pitched over a hundred times to investors and strategics. 55 00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:55.069 He was most recently CEO of works ride, a New York based company in 56 00:03:55.110 --> 00:04:00.189 the Channel Incentives and employee performance market, back by their Riverside Company, a 57 00:04:00.349 --> 00:04:03.150 leading pe investor. Jim and I talk about his journey to becoming CEO and 58 00:04:03.229 --> 00:04:06.509 how he learned to sell, where it takes to sell enter price products, 59 00:04:06.750 --> 00:04:11.300 how to find pain, what to do after the sale. This chat is 60 00:04:11.500 --> 00:04:16.220 full of Golden Nuggets. I hope you enjoyed. Jim. Welcome to the 61 00:04:16.259 --> 00:04:19.500 show. Hey, job's great to be here. Thanks, fantastic. So, 62 00:04:19.540 --> 00:04:24.490 Jim, we're going to be talking about sales and all sorts of aspects 63 00:04:24.529 --> 00:04:28.329 of selling real stuff to real peep pull on the show. But before we 64 00:04:28.410 --> 00:04:31.250 do that I always like to have the listeners learn a bit about our guest 65 00:04:31.529 --> 00:04:35.490 and so be great to learn a bit about you and your journey to the 66 00:04:35.649 --> 00:04:40.680 first time you were CEO. And sometimes people got a test the cobwebs out 67 00:04:40.680 --> 00:04:42.759 a little bit to remember, but it tell us how you got to the 68 00:04:42.839 --> 00:04:45.959 point where you were in the CEO seat for the first time and what was 69 00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:47.480 that like? Yeah, I mean it was an interesting journey. I mean 70 00:04:47.480 --> 00:04:50.839 I actually started as electrical engineer, so I was implementing, you know, 71 00:04:51.000 --> 00:04:57.430 systems to telecommunications companies and I did that for a few years and I saw 72 00:04:57.509 --> 00:05:00.350 that all the action was really in selling and that's where the sales guys were 73 00:05:00.389 --> 00:05:04.149 getting all the interest from senior exacts and that's sort of scene where the action 74 00:05:04.269 --> 00:05:08.379 was. So I convinced the head of sales to give me a sales job 75 00:05:08.459 --> 00:05:11.699 and which is not a normal career track to be moved from the engineer to 76 00:05:11.779 --> 00:05:15.740 a sales guy, but God love me, gave me a territory and within 77 00:05:15.819 --> 00:05:17.899 a year I became the top sales guy in a company. So wow, 78 00:05:18.100 --> 00:05:21.730 yeah, and so why? It is probably the next question it. You 79 00:05:21.810 --> 00:05:24.970 know, I think you read my mind. Yeah, I mean you, 80 00:05:25.089 --> 00:05:28.569 because you become an expert. You know, I had an opportunity to really 81 00:05:28.810 --> 00:05:30.689 I knew the product better, probably better than any other sales person on the 82 00:05:30.730 --> 00:05:34.649 team, and at that time customers and prospects really, you know, they 83 00:05:34.759 --> 00:05:39.480 needed expertise. This was a whole new thing, new types of systems. 84 00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:44.360 Is Back when fiber optics were coming into the telecommunications infrastructure and they needed entergy. 85 00:05:44.600 --> 00:05:47.480 So, you know, the lesson really is become an expert, master 86 00:05:47.560 --> 00:05:51.629 your craft and whether you're a sales guy or you're a CEO or if you 87 00:05:51.709 --> 00:05:55.430 really anybody, you know, I think one of the important lessons is take 88 00:05:55.470 --> 00:05:58.110 the time to become an expert, master your craft. And you know, 89 00:05:58.149 --> 00:06:00.230 I think it's one of the great things about this podcast is that, you 90 00:06:00.310 --> 00:06:02.550 know, whoever's listening is probably trying to improve themselves, but trying to master 91 00:06:02.589 --> 00:06:06.339 the aircraft, and I think that's that's really key. So from there I 92 00:06:06.899 --> 00:06:11.819 ended up moving from systems to sort of software it world, where I've spent 93 00:06:12.100 --> 00:06:15.980 really the rest of my career and on the path to be CEO. I 94 00:06:15.139 --> 00:06:17.970 cut one of the best deals I ever did. This I was working with 95 00:06:18.050 --> 00:06:20.850 this software, large software company at the time, and they wanted me to 96 00:06:20.930 --> 00:06:24.850 go to Europe to, you know, help start the operation over there, 97 00:06:24.970 --> 00:06:27.089 and I said, well, I really want to go get my Mba, 98 00:06:27.649 --> 00:06:30.810 and so I convinced them to say, I'll go to Europe for two years 99 00:06:30.810 --> 00:06:33.519 and I come back, you pay for my MBA, and it was best 100 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:36.800 deal I ever did in my life, I think, probably. And that's 101 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:40.480 what happened. I end up spending three years in Europe and it was a 102 00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:42.920 lot of fun. Learn a ton over there, and then came back and 103 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:46.189 went to the Warton School and got my Mba and from there really started on 104 00:06:46.230 --> 00:06:50.709 the journey to running businesses and being, you know, president and running large 105 00:06:50.750 --> 00:06:55.389 companies and then finally landing in the seat a CEO and, you know, 106 00:06:55.550 --> 00:06:58.389 really trying to digest what that was all about. And boy, it's an 107 00:06:58.389 --> 00:07:00.620 amazing experience. As I say, you go from one of the guys to 108 00:07:00.779 --> 00:07:04.699 the guy and with that comes a lot of pressure, but I loved it. 109 00:07:04.819 --> 00:07:09.980 It was something I had been really passionately planning for and was a great 110 00:07:10.019 --> 00:07:12.980 achievement. Thanks him. What was the first company? What did they sell 111 00:07:13.100 --> 00:07:15.850 at first CEO role? Yeah, I mean so I was basically a president 112 00:07:16.089 --> 00:07:20.209 of, or was a president two companies before that and we ended up they 113 00:07:20.250 --> 00:07:25.209 were largely software companies, software and a press software companies. Yeah, and 114 00:07:25.209 --> 00:07:30.120 then the real the first early stage company I did was antenna and was basically 115 00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:35.000 almost no revenue and company a good financial backers and I took the role and 116 00:07:35.160 --> 00:07:39.920 ended up growing that to be an industry leader and Gardner, magic quadrant leader 117 00:07:39.959 --> 00:07:42.920 and, you know, forty million dollar plus run right. So it was. 118 00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:46.589 It was a long, interesting journey where I learned a lot about being 119 00:07:46.629 --> 00:07:49.829 to see you. Yeah, and was there anything that surprised you in whatever 120 00:07:49.870 --> 00:07:54.470 you believe to be truly like the first time right where you're running a business? 121 00:07:54.750 --> 00:07:58.029 was there anything that sort of surprised you, like something you didn't expect 122 00:07:58.110 --> 00:08:00.740 to experience? Well, there was. There was a lot of things, 123 00:08:00.819 --> 00:08:03.060 but I think in retrospect is, I look back now, I think the 124 00:08:03.379 --> 00:08:11.540 most challenging thing as a CEO anywhere is you have three major constituents and their 125 00:08:11.620 --> 00:08:15.449 interests are rarely, if ever, aligned. You have investors, you have 126 00:08:15.569 --> 00:08:18.329 customers and you have employees. And the sort of the role of CEO is. 127 00:08:18.370 --> 00:08:20.970 Think about you're holding a pencil. On top of that pencil point as 128 00:08:20.970 --> 00:08:24.889 a plate, and standing on that plate are investors, customers and employees and 129 00:08:24.930 --> 00:08:28.800 you got to somehow balance that plate. And guess what? You know, 130 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:31.559 it's very difficult. What the investors want or not? What the employees want, 131 00:08:31.559 --> 00:08:33.440 right? The investors want you to pay them, pay them less. 132 00:08:33.440 --> 00:08:37.320 Employees want more. You know, customers want lower prices. You know business 133 00:08:37.399 --> 00:08:41.230 wants higher prices. You know there's this natural conflict between the three. So 134 00:08:41.389 --> 00:08:46.509 as a CEO you really have to figure out how to balance those three constituents. 135 00:08:46.629 --> 00:08:48.509 And there's many other demands, but if you boil it all down, 136 00:08:48.549 --> 00:08:52.269 if you can make the investor, the customers the employees happy, you know, 137 00:08:52.350 --> 00:08:54.629 that's really the recipe for success, right, and that's where the journey 138 00:08:54.629 --> 00:08:58.259 begins, right, figuring out how to get to that balance. And I'd 139 00:08:58.259 --> 00:09:01.419 imagine it's trying to figure out the joke ahead of it is harder. Yeah, 140 00:09:01.500 --> 00:09:07.779 exactly, and that's right. And I imagine that balancing equation is different 141 00:09:07.860 --> 00:09:11.210 for every company that you run. Right, you know how to get to 142 00:09:11.330 --> 00:09:15.009 that point and what the investors demands might be, your customers demands might be. 143 00:09:15.169 --> 00:09:18.169 Depends on the business you're operating. Yeah, and it depends on the 144 00:09:18.250 --> 00:09:20.929 size of business a scale, whether it's a VC back business or a private 145 00:09:20.970 --> 00:09:24.759 equity back business. You know, there's a lot of variance that go into 146 00:09:24.840 --> 00:09:26.480 that, but at the end of the day the challenge is the same. 147 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:31.159 How do you align those, you know, to get an equilibrium and to 148 00:09:31.240 --> 00:09:33.919 reach success? MMM, I'm intrigued by the fact that you sort of started 149 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:39.350 your transition from, you know, being an engineer to a business leader through 150 00:09:39.389 --> 00:09:43.509 the sales organization, because everybody want to dig into that whole world. You 151 00:09:43.629 --> 00:09:46.750 mentioned earlier that you know that's where all the action was. What is it 152 00:09:46.830 --> 00:09:50.870 that attracted you about sales? Well, I mean I would peel look back 153 00:09:50.870 --> 00:09:54.460 from there. When I left school, I always had a passion to become 154 00:09:54.500 --> 00:09:56.940 a CEO and I had, you know, they don't hand you a rule 155 00:09:56.980 --> 00:10:00.419 book in College. So here's how you become a CEO, right. There's 156 00:10:00.460 --> 00:10:03.139 no yeah, pleabook for that, but in back of my mind. I 157 00:10:03.299 --> 00:10:05.340 said that's where I want to be, that's what I think I can achieve. 158 00:10:05.659 --> 00:10:09.330 And you know, if you're sitting as an engineer in a company, 159 00:10:09.490 --> 00:10:11.769 it was, you know, it was really interesting work and it was, 160 00:10:13.129 --> 00:10:16.009 you know, intellectually challenging. But I guess I was a man in a 161 00:10:16.049 --> 00:10:18.330 hurry, you know, and I said, wow, if I can get 162 00:10:18.370 --> 00:10:20.250 to the sales that's where the deals are, that's where all the executives are 163 00:10:20.289 --> 00:10:24.759 paying attention. They're not paying attention. If I engineer this system correctly or 164 00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:26.960 paying attention, if we can expand our market share and close new deals and 165 00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:31.759 HMM. And so that was the if you look at the chess board ahead 166 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:33.799 of you, I said, okay, if I make this move, you 167 00:10:33.879 --> 00:10:37.269 know, I get closer to the exections but, more importantly, I get 168 00:10:37.309 --> 00:10:39.230 to learn, you know, another aspect of the business and I get to 169 00:10:39.269 --> 00:10:43.149 learn about the customer. And Right, you know, I would love to 170 00:10:43.230 --> 00:10:46.549 say that I had every move on the chessboard mapped out ahead. Did Yeah, 171 00:10:46.870 --> 00:10:50.419 yeah, but I just had a feeling that if I could learn to 172 00:10:50.580 --> 00:10:52.580 sell, that I would suit me well as I tried to build my career. 173 00:10:52.700 --> 00:10:56.179 And in fact I think it's one of the most important skills to see 174 00:10:56.179 --> 00:10:58.259 you can have, because you're always selling. You're selling to investors, you're 175 00:10:58.259 --> 00:11:03.139 selling to employees, selling the customers. Obviously you're trying to recruit people to 176 00:11:03.179 --> 00:11:07.169 come join the mission. It's you're always selling. HMM, that drive to 177 00:11:07.289 --> 00:11:11.809 become a CEO, did that come from a particular life experience, seeing someone 178 00:11:11.850 --> 00:11:15.450 else, perhaps in your family? Or in my case it was when my 179 00:11:15.529 --> 00:11:18.960 father was an independent he was kind of contractor, you know, his own, 180 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:20.840 his own business man, if you will, and I think I got 181 00:11:20.919 --> 00:11:24.559 a bit of my drive from that. But I've a lot of time reading 182 00:11:24.600 --> 00:11:28.039 about businesses that have been created and now was just fascinated by how one creates 183 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:31.120 a business and creates a large enterprise and ultimately global company. I always wanted 184 00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:33.830 to do that, you know. One of my old college buddies called me 185 00:11:33.909 --> 00:11:37.590 and said I remember that. You know you always wanted to be a CEO, 186 00:11:37.669 --> 00:11:39.669 and I says I did. He says yeah, when you're a freshman, 187 00:11:39.710 --> 00:11:41.710 I says, what you want to be is a a see Huh. 188 00:11:41.190 --> 00:11:45.350 It's like wow, I remember saying that. Where you like that too, 189 00:11:45.750 --> 00:11:50.460 you know? In a way was my had the luxury of having too terrific 190 00:11:50.580 --> 00:11:54.299 parents and that always, you know, try to support me and do everything 191 00:11:54.419 --> 00:11:58.220 necessary to build my self esteem and all the things that are critical ingredients in 192 00:11:58.259 --> 00:12:03.850 this. But actually my dad was an advertising he was a creative and I 193 00:12:03.929 --> 00:12:05.649 remember going to him in high school and he said, you know what he 194 00:12:05.690 --> 00:12:09.210 want to do with your career and I said I guess I'll go into advertising 195 00:12:09.330 --> 00:12:11.850 like you and he looked at me said now you're not going to do that. 196 00:12:13.169 --> 00:12:16.320 He says you're good his his brother, my uncle, was worked at 197 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:18.639 IBM as an engineer. A SIS. You're going to be an engineer like 198 00:12:18.759 --> 00:12:22.639 nick and that's that's your that's where you need to be, because I think 199 00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:24.799 that will get you to be able to you know, it'll get you a 200 00:12:24.840 --> 00:12:30.029 lot further than he was not particularly enamored with the advertising world. Nothing INSTA 201 00:12:30.029 --> 00:12:33.549 advertising. So you know right, and that's how it started. And then 202 00:12:33.789 --> 00:12:37.110 in as I was in engineering. You know, it's just such a great 203 00:12:37.269 --> 00:12:41.750 base skill because it's problem solving, right. Ultimately, engineering is problem solving 204 00:12:41.629 --> 00:12:46.379 and I remembered. This is going to sound so try I hesitate to even 205 00:12:46.700 --> 00:12:50.220 say it, but I remember this advertisement from the Wall Street Journal is so 206 00:12:50.340 --> 00:12:52.100 weird and it's this story of these two guys a lead college at the same 207 00:12:52.100 --> 00:12:56.100 time and they go back to the reunion, you know, ten years later 208 00:12:56.419 --> 00:12:58.450 it turns out they you know, they ended up working for the same company 209 00:12:58.570 --> 00:13:01.929 and they came out of this college at the same major and everything else. 210 00:13:01.049 --> 00:13:05.169 And Punch line was one was regional manager and one was the CEO. And 211 00:13:05.289 --> 00:13:09.889 then the whole thing was like what's the difference? And it really trigged somehow 212 00:13:09.970 --> 00:13:13.480 that weird advertisement for the wall stree journal trigger in my mind. What do 213 00:13:13.559 --> 00:13:16.679 you have to do differently to get there? And one of them I knew 214 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:18.679 I had to do was I had to learn different skills. I had to 215 00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:22.559 learn and technical, I to learn selling, I to learn product that, 216 00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:24.960 I had to learn how to run a PNL, all those things. International 217 00:13:26.200 --> 00:13:28.830 would be another skill. So I have to checklist, but you know, 218 00:13:28.870 --> 00:13:31.149 I had no idea how it's going to get there throughout my career to check 219 00:13:31.149 --> 00:13:35.309 the boxes. Yeah, so interesting. Thanks for sharing that. That's very, 220 00:13:35.350 --> 00:13:37.230 very insightful that. It always intrigues me because, you know, some 221 00:13:37.350 --> 00:13:41.019 people stumbled into the role, some people are driven to get to the role 222 00:13:41.379 --> 00:13:46.340 and it's always interesting to see how that drive ultimately gets them to their goal. 223 00:13:46.500 --> 00:13:48.899 So let's talk about sales. You actually put it perfectly. I agree 224 00:13:50.019 --> 00:13:52.299 that. You know, selling is about an engineering and technologies about problem solving, 225 00:13:52.419 --> 00:13:54.580 right, do you believe that? Well, let me put it this 226 00:13:54.730 --> 00:13:58.690 way. What is your philosophy around sales? Well, the first thing, 227 00:13:58.850 --> 00:14:03.289 especially if you're selling enterprise and too, sort of senior levels in really were 228 00:14:03.330 --> 00:14:07.129 almost anyone. Nobody wakes up in the morning and says I want to buy 229 00:14:07.169 --> 00:14:11.360 software today. No question. I mean they what do they do? They 230 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:11.919 get out of bed and they say, how am I going to solve this 231 00:14:13.080 --> 00:14:15.480 problem? How do I am going to selve this business problem? You know, 232 00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:16.879 how do I make this pain go away? That I'm done. I 233 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:20.559 experience in my in my day. So I think the first thing is you 234 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:24.669 have to know the pain and you have to figure out how to solve the 235 00:14:24.750 --> 00:14:30.629 pain. And you know, ultimately, buyers are looking for three things, 236 00:14:31.190 --> 00:14:35.269 and in almost every circumstance enterprise buyers. First is, can you solve the 237 00:14:35.309 --> 00:14:39.340 problem? You know, do you have the capabilities, the references, the 238 00:14:39.419 --> 00:14:41.820 product, solution, whatever it is? The second thing is, and I 239 00:14:41.940 --> 00:14:46.620 think this is sometimes one of the most important, is risk. They look 240 00:14:46.620 --> 00:14:48.899 at me. Are these guys going to be around? Are they going to 241 00:14:48.100 --> 00:14:52.299 help my career or they going to make me look good with this choice? 242 00:14:52.340 --> 00:14:56.289 M Very critical component. And then the third is, you know, is 243 00:14:56.330 --> 00:14:58.690 there a unique value here or what are these guys better at than anyone else? 244 00:14:58.730 --> 00:15:03.169 IS IT industry expertise? Is it speak and help me implement a quicker 245 00:15:03.169 --> 00:15:05.210 as it cost value as or features? And then you have to prove that. 246 00:15:05.409 --> 00:15:09.320 You know, you have to state your claim that you're better at anybody 247 00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:13.519 because of this and then you have to prove it. Relentlessly and systematically prove 248 00:15:13.559 --> 00:15:16.919 it. And by the way, the twenty rule applies here to I mean 249 00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:20.279 a lot of times, especially in software, you're in pitching features and benefits 250 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:24.110 and really it, it turns out probably there's only one or two benefits that 251 00:15:24.350 --> 00:15:26.669 are the most critical and if you can nail those, if you can find 252 00:15:26.669 --> 00:15:30.110 those, that's going to be the difference, you know, because everybody has 253 00:15:30.149 --> 00:15:33.110 a set of features right, it's finding this one or two. So you 254 00:15:33.230 --> 00:15:35.429 know, it's if you can hit those three things. To me, I 255 00:15:35.470 --> 00:15:39.259 don't know if that's a philosophy, but that's been my experience. So the 256 00:15:39.340 --> 00:15:41.940 first thing is fine, pain and make sure you can solve that pain. 257 00:15:43.220 --> 00:15:46.299 The second is that buyers going to want to make sure that they can mitigate 258 00:15:46.379 --> 00:15:50.129 risk right, because I'm want to make sure that this company's not going to 259 00:15:50.169 --> 00:15:52.809 make a fool out of me for for selecting them right. And the third 260 00:15:52.009 --> 00:15:54.370 is you've got to be really good at what you do. In other words, 261 00:15:54.409 --> 00:15:58.330 find something that you're good at and be better at it than anyone else 262 00:15:58.490 --> 00:16:00.129 and make sure that they know what that it goes right. And then then, 263 00:16:00.210 --> 00:16:03.129 by the way, that is something that I think is fundamental in especially 264 00:16:03.210 --> 00:16:07.679 in early stage company. If you want you know, you have to define 265 00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:11.399 your unique value and I think a lot of companies spend a lot of marketing 266 00:16:11.480 --> 00:16:15.279 dollars out trying to build a brand. We're trying to build awareness, when 267 00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:19.710 they haven't actually the find what that unique value is, and so spend the 268 00:16:19.789 --> 00:16:22.309 money, spend the time to figure that out, whatever it is. Maybe 269 00:16:22.350 --> 00:16:26.950 it's a subvertical maybe it's one particular thing that you can do that somebody else 270 00:16:26.990 --> 00:16:30.230 can't do, or maybe it's just something as a simple as we're easier and 271 00:16:30.429 --> 00:16:36.259 simpler and faster. But you know, once you find that that unique value, 272 00:16:36.620 --> 00:16:38.460 that's got to drive through your whole culture, your whole company. It's 273 00:16:38.500 --> 00:16:42.059 the website, it's your content, it's the sales pitch, it's the demo, 274 00:16:42.340 --> 00:16:47.490 it's how you recruit people. You have to be sort of centered around 275 00:16:47.529 --> 00:16:49.250 that unique value. And, by the way, it's really hard to find 276 00:16:49.289 --> 00:16:52.730 that right, especially when you're small. You know you're up against well funded 277 00:16:53.009 --> 00:16:56.769 people have been in the industry longer and have better references. But somehow you 278 00:16:56.850 --> 00:17:00.879 got to find something that you're better at and just double down on that and 279 00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:07.400 then just go relentlessly to you know, relentlessly pursue companies or individuals within those 280 00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:10.839 companies that have that problem. Hm. And how do you find the problem? 281 00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:14.880 And your experience when you came into the roles that you took on a 282 00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:18.910 CEO Today, already have clarity around the problem they were solving. That first 283 00:17:18.950 --> 00:17:22.829 part of the three pillars, if you will know it. And Yeah, 284 00:17:23.150 --> 00:17:27.309 I mean really didn't. So yeah, in a word, no, yeah, 285 00:17:27.349 --> 00:17:33.700 and actually it's funny at antenna that we really pivoted to business. The 286 00:17:33.740 --> 00:17:38.099 business was a sort of cloud based hosted field service software and that was good, 287 00:17:38.380 --> 00:17:41.619 but it wasn't great. And then, you know, at the time 288 00:17:41.980 --> 00:17:45.730 mobile devices and Rim and blackberry and Microsoft to time we're really coming into the 289 00:17:45.930 --> 00:17:49.210 market. Yeah, for the first time you had intelligent enough and powerful enough 290 00:17:49.250 --> 00:17:53.369 devices where you could actually put application software on there, you could put run 291 00:17:53.410 --> 00:17:57.410 the business software on there, and so, you know, we had been 292 00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:02.759 as a company solving these field service problems and then we realized, you know, 293 00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:06.279 we could make more money solving the mobile part. You know, if 294 00:18:06.359 --> 00:18:10.000 we could just get the mobile piece right and show companies how to put applications 295 00:18:10.119 --> 00:18:14.470 on the vices, that would be really unique and differentiated, and that's how 296 00:18:14.509 --> 00:18:17.509 we kind of change the vector of the company and took off from there. 297 00:18:17.829 --> 00:18:21.269 HMM. And Yeah, that was not easy. We and it was through 298 00:18:21.349 --> 00:18:22.589 no grand plant. I wish I could say it was, but it was 299 00:18:22.630 --> 00:18:25.990 more of an accident where we just got a deal and they say, Hey, 300 00:18:26.029 --> 00:18:29.819 will pay you a lot of money to put this application on this device 301 00:18:29.940 --> 00:18:33.099 for our field guys that are out there. And that's how you found a 302 00:18:33.140 --> 00:18:36.099 unique value and say wow, if we were able to do this and if 303 00:18:36.140 --> 00:18:38.099 we can institutionalize this and build a platform around this, think about all these 304 00:18:38.180 --> 00:18:41.009 companies that want this. So, yeah, it was an interesting journey. 305 00:18:41.009 --> 00:18:44.210 So it's not always a parent. Sometimes you have to dig for it. 306 00:18:44.450 --> 00:18:47.849 Yeah, yeah, could the same sentiment there, that the pain is not 307 00:18:47.890 --> 00:18:51.289 always clear. But you've got to be clear about the pain you're solving. 308 00:18:51.329 --> 00:18:52.890 If you don't know what it is, spend some time hunting for it. 309 00:18:53.009 --> 00:18:56.519 Hopefully you find it before you run out of money, let's say, but 310 00:18:56.680 --> 00:18:59.799 it's going to be important to go about doing that. You know. I'll 311 00:18:59.839 --> 00:19:02.519 say one of the thing John, you know, some of it is about 312 00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:06.799 finding a part of that value is. It's great to think you have the 313 00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:10.589 value, but it's about finding the right buy or characteristics to write. So 314 00:19:10.829 --> 00:19:12.430 how do you it's the product market fit. So I'll think you know. 315 00:19:12.509 --> 00:19:15.990 One example is when you I was at work, drive to one of the 316 00:19:15.029 --> 00:19:18.950 offerings we had was helping companies improve their channel and send us, and so 317 00:19:19.190 --> 00:19:22.990 we were selling into a channel chief, you know, somebody who was responsible 318 00:19:23.190 --> 00:19:27.500 for indirect sales through channels for the company's product. They're largely industrial companies, 319 00:19:27.700 --> 00:19:33.420 and what we found was that there was a specific type of channel chief who 320 00:19:33.579 --> 00:19:37.180 was the perfect receptor to our pitch and, you know, we found it. 321 00:19:37.259 --> 00:19:40.769 There was usually two different types of channel chiefs. One had been the 322 00:19:40.890 --> 00:19:44.730 company twenty years. You know, we called them lifers. It was clear 323 00:19:44.769 --> 00:19:47.170 they're never going to change right there on, to be there forever, that 324 00:19:47.250 --> 00:19:51.089 I can do anything disrupt their career. And then we through Linkedin we found, 325 00:19:51.170 --> 00:19:52.599 you know, we want somebody with channel chief. The magic number was 326 00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:56.519 they were there for twelve to eighteen months, so they were new on the 327 00:19:56.559 --> 00:20:00.000 job. Obviously there was clear that they were the disructor. They were there 328 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:03.400 to change things and twelve day, eighteen months was enough time for them to 329 00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:07.390 figure out their plan and then they really wanted to go find solutions. So 330 00:20:07.390 --> 00:20:11.470 just to need this sort of perfect receptor to that unique value, and it 331 00:20:11.589 --> 00:20:15.190 was crazy. We you you know, through technology today you can sort of 332 00:20:15.269 --> 00:20:21.190 pinpoint that buyer and we looked for a very specific set of characteristics, you 333 00:20:21.309 --> 00:20:23.619 know, sort of how old, their ten year, their background, you 334 00:20:23.740 --> 00:20:26.539 know, and how long they've been there. And it was it's interesting. 335 00:20:26.619 --> 00:20:30.259 So That's how specific you have to get around trying to find buyer. Yeah, 336 00:20:30.420 --> 00:20:33.779 it definitely are taking us in a direction that I wanted to go, 337 00:20:33.059 --> 00:20:37.450 because I wholeheartedly agree with that. I called veto. Finding veto, the 338 00:20:37.490 --> 00:20:41.769 very important top officer, the person who basically lives the pain that you're trying 339 00:20:41.809 --> 00:20:44.410 to solve. Once you find the pain right, you've got to go find 340 00:20:44.730 --> 00:20:48.569 doubt who in the organization, because it's not everyone. It's a very specific 341 00:20:48.609 --> 00:20:53.839 person who ideally has the power to sort of pull you in and get something 342 00:20:55.160 --> 00:20:57.440 moving right, to get your solution in there. Ideally, they got enough 343 00:20:57.480 --> 00:21:02.640 power to start a transaction or a sales process with you. was that person 344 00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:06.150 that you guys targeted or, you know, built a blueprint around, with 345 00:21:06.309 --> 00:21:08.829 ady ultimate buyer, or were they more an influence er to the sales process? 346 00:21:08.990 --> 00:21:12.109 Well, they were the ultimate buyer. They had the budget, but 347 00:21:12.430 --> 00:21:15.950 you know, to get there is you may not get there first right, 348 00:21:17.029 --> 00:21:21.299 and I know it's interesting. You know, the whole selling to veto processes 349 00:21:21.539 --> 00:21:23.220 is an interesting process. I agree with some of it, not all of 350 00:21:23.259 --> 00:21:26.700 it, and one of the mantras is, you know, start there, 351 00:21:27.259 --> 00:21:30.660 and I think that's sometimes may or may not be possible. I think you 352 00:21:30.700 --> 00:21:36.369 should start there in terms of identifying that person, but many times you're entering 353 00:21:36.410 --> 00:21:40.809 at a lower level and I think it's important that. That's actually equally important, 354 00:21:40.970 --> 00:21:44.490 because those are influencers. You know, they're not the ULTIMATES, but 355 00:21:44.529 --> 00:21:47.319 they're the influence of they're the ones who are running the process, they're the 356 00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:51.319 ones who are making recommendations and those are the people you're going to give you 357 00:21:51.319 --> 00:21:56.319 the information in the background and in the details to get to veto to the 358 00:21:56.440 --> 00:21:59.759 buyer and really be able to articulate the crisp message. So it's I think 359 00:21:59.799 --> 00:22:04.269 it's really important to sell in and without identifying who the top important officer is, 360 00:22:04.309 --> 00:22:07.630 it's going to be a very difficult, if not a possible to close. 361 00:22:07.789 --> 00:22:11.150 But it's that, plus the evaluators and all the people involve, the 362 00:22:11.230 --> 00:22:15.509 influences, if you will. QUILLY's important, I think. Yeah, that's 363 00:22:15.549 --> 00:22:18.019 very helpful and I would agree with that as well. Now you really have 364 00:22:18.140 --> 00:22:22.619 two groups in every organization, right. So use work stried, for example, 365 00:22:22.859 --> 00:22:26.059 you had really more the the person responsible for the business and the channel 366 00:22:26.059 --> 00:22:30.490 relationships. But then you're delivering a piece of technology to the company to solve 367 00:22:30.529 --> 00:22:34.410 a problem. So ideally you're you're selling to another group, right, which 368 00:22:34.410 --> 00:22:38.289 is a technology group, because they've kind of have oversight over technology coming in. 369 00:22:38.609 --> 00:22:41.970 Was that true? And Work Stride and I assume an antenna as well, 370 00:22:42.130 --> 00:22:45.680 and what did you see as a differences and with selling their yeah, 371 00:22:45.799 --> 00:22:52.559 so if you know antenna, it was more it led and focused rather than 372 00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:57.519 business unit focused. Ultimately, you're always there's always a recipient of the solution 373 00:22:57.670 --> 00:23:02.269 and that is the person who still lign business executive. So that's typically a 374 00:23:02.309 --> 00:23:04.670 business unit leader. And you know, what they're looking for is the tactical 375 00:23:04.789 --> 00:23:07.230 here and now. Right they just want to solve the problem. They want 376 00:23:07.269 --> 00:23:11.990 speed. They went impact, you know, they want the problems off the 377 00:23:11.109 --> 00:23:15.420 same row or the IT group. They take a little bit longer term perspective 378 00:23:15.460 --> 00:23:18.579 and horizon. I mean they're more strategic. They've got to live with it, 379 00:23:18.859 --> 00:23:22.299 you know, they have to live with that decision. You know, 380 00:23:22.380 --> 00:23:26.539 ultimately they have to please the business units. That's their constituency. But at 381 00:23:26.579 --> 00:23:29.650 the same time they're often risk averse, you know. So when you're selling 382 00:23:29.690 --> 00:23:33.890 it was CIOH, they're they're sophisticated buyers there. They're looking at many different 383 00:23:34.049 --> 00:23:40.009 offerings and they're sort of longer term planning arise. And so I say that 384 00:23:40.130 --> 00:23:42.279 because, to your point, both constituencies are really the important. I almost 385 00:23:42.319 --> 00:23:45.720 think it's a little bit more complex and harder on the IT size sometime because 386 00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:51.240 they're more rigorous versus on the business unit side. They just want the problem 387 00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:53.319 side, right. They always have a high sense of urgency. So right, 388 00:23:53.799 --> 00:23:57.470 you know it's both and they're both equally important. They're just different and 389 00:23:57.589 --> 00:24:02.309 you have to sell them differently. And how do you develop a successful selling 390 00:24:02.349 --> 00:24:06.230 process from scratch? Walk us through how you go about it, like how 391 00:24:06.269 --> 00:24:08.269 do you think about it and when you come into a shop or you know 392 00:24:08.349 --> 00:24:11.220 how you guys look at Antena when you kind of after the pivot, like 393 00:24:11.299 --> 00:24:14.380 okay, how do we sell more of these things? Yeah, so, 394 00:24:14.420 --> 00:24:17.859 I mean I think you have to develop a story right. It's about the 395 00:24:17.940 --> 00:24:21.859 right story, the right narrative, to the right audience the right time. 396 00:24:21.900 --> 00:24:25.130 I mean one example is we, so it's funny, on a work stride, 397 00:24:25.170 --> 00:24:27.849 we sold, among other things, we sold recognition or reward programs to, 398 00:24:29.089 --> 00:24:32.089 you know, try to improve improve em play engagement and we sold, 399 00:24:32.329 --> 00:24:34.089 among other verticals, to hospitals. We did a lot with a health care 400 00:24:34.210 --> 00:24:40.599 healthcare systems and hospitals and we had one particular hospital that was a customer. 401 00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:44.720 They hit. We have been successful closing and what we found out was there 402 00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:48.680 was this amazing story that came out of this hospital. It was a Marquis 403 00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:52.279 Hospital. Everybody would know who it was and they had some of the finest 404 00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:56.470 doctors in the world. But they're each hospital has something they have to do. 405 00:24:56.589 --> 00:24:59.630 They have to do patient satisfaction on the quality of care they received. 406 00:24:59.670 --> 00:25:03.069 It's a sort of mandated thing and there's something called H caps. It's I 407 00:25:03.150 --> 00:25:07.859 think it's called hospital consumer assessment of healthcare providers and system survey this h Cap. 408 00:25:07.980 --> 00:25:11.180 So you have they frequently have to do these h cap surveys, which 409 00:25:11.380 --> 00:25:15.339 is this patient satisfaction on the quality. And the key thing was is that 410 00:25:15.539 --> 00:25:21.299 the results of these surveys are in tied in part to medicate and Medicare reimbursements. 411 00:25:21.569 --> 00:25:26.049 So you know, the patient satisfaction can ultimately lead to profit for the 412 00:25:26.170 --> 00:25:32.650 hospital. So wow, that's really interesting. And so this particular hospital realized 413 00:25:32.730 --> 00:25:36.640 that patient satisfaction is really not as much around the doctors, it's really around 414 00:25:36.680 --> 00:25:40.079 all the other people that you see in a hospital, like the person brings 415 00:25:40.119 --> 00:25:41.400 you the food, the person who sweep in the floor, is the person's 416 00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:45.640 claim the bathrooms and nurses to some degree, right. So they embarked on 417 00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:48.920 this whole cultural change which they you know, they made everybody in the hospital 418 00:25:49.069 --> 00:25:53.150 was became caregiver risk. Right, we're all caregivers. So what an amazing 419 00:25:53.349 --> 00:25:57.069 study. Right. So now our pitch was our sales strategy was we're not 420 00:25:57.069 --> 00:26:00.549 going to the chief human resources officer of a hospital and the saying hey, 421 00:26:00.589 --> 00:26:03.339 we want to sell you awards program for employees. You know, we went 422 00:26:03.380 --> 00:26:07.460 to them and say, Hey, we can help you change your culture, 423 00:26:07.859 --> 00:26:11.339 we can help you improve your processes or identify what process needs to be improved 424 00:26:11.579 --> 00:26:15.660 in order to increase the profit for the hospital. And ultimately this became a 425 00:26:15.700 --> 00:26:18.970 Harvard Business Review. So I don't know if that's a sale strategy, but 426 00:26:19.049 --> 00:26:22.490 man, that's an amazing story that now you can go to a very high 427 00:26:22.490 --> 00:26:26.490 level person of influence, and I don't know a human resource officer who doesn't 428 00:26:26.490 --> 00:26:30.690 want to improve the culture, improve processes or be the source of how to 429 00:26:30.769 --> 00:26:33.720 improve process and increase the profit for the company. You know most of them 430 00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:36.839 are going to pay attention. So part of it is craft the whole story, 431 00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:40.920 craft the message that's going to get the attention and be inning forul and 432 00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:45.319 so I think that's really the key to success in in any enterprise. CLL 433 00:26:45.559 --> 00:26:48.990 HMM and it sounds like the way to find it is to mind it from 434 00:26:48.029 --> 00:26:52.670 your customers, right, like really study how your customers use the product and 435 00:26:53.349 --> 00:26:59.990 where they see value and what transformations the technology created for them. Yeah, 436 00:26:59.990 --> 00:27:03.579 I think it's incredibly important in something, frankly, I didn't learn to later 437 00:27:03.700 --> 00:27:07.259 in my career, honestly, and that is the value of really speaking to 438 00:27:07.380 --> 00:27:12.819 customers in an unbiased way and not trying to force fit your story to them, 439 00:27:14.019 --> 00:27:17.450 but speaking to customers and doing primary research. And, by the way, 440 00:27:17.450 --> 00:27:18.970 even as a CEO, you know, get in and just just talk 441 00:27:19.009 --> 00:27:22.970 to customers, to tell me about Your Business, tell me about your day, 442 00:27:22.089 --> 00:27:25.369 tell me about what you do, tell me about what you're trying to 443 00:27:25.369 --> 00:27:29.089 accomplish and then tell me about the obstacles. And if you just listen with 444 00:27:29.329 --> 00:27:32.960 no preconceived notion, they'll give you the solution and then it's up to you 445 00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:34.519 to figure out. Okay, and now we now that we have the pain, 446 00:27:34.680 --> 00:27:37.599 that we have the problem, how do we map our capabilities to that 447 00:27:37.720 --> 00:27:41.519 in a unique and valuable way? And sometimes you're going to find industries where 448 00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:45.109 you're not going to you know it's in trench competitors or there's better solutions. 449 00:27:45.349 --> 00:27:49.109 So find a vertical find a piece, find a subvertical, find something that 450 00:27:49.269 --> 00:27:52.950 you can do better or different and start there, because that's how you scale. 451 00:27:53.109 --> 00:27:56.829 If you can do that, then it's a matter of just repeating that 452 00:27:56.990 --> 00:28:00.779 over and over again. That's great. You talked about advertising earlier and you've 453 00:28:00.819 --> 00:28:06.059 touched on sort of storytelling, which you know is all part and parcel, 454 00:28:06.099 --> 00:28:11.859 I think, to a larger sort of brand and positioning conversation and how important 455 00:28:11.900 --> 00:28:15.890 that is to sales right like making sure the market you're in understands what your 456 00:28:15.930 --> 00:28:18.210 brand stands for and what problem you're solving. Tell us about that. How 457 00:28:18.210 --> 00:28:22.490 important is that for the experiences you've been in and what's your philosophy to that? 458 00:28:22.730 --> 00:28:27.359 Do you personally get excited about investing in that work, or do you 459 00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:32.799 not find it as important as just blocking and tackling selling? I think that 460 00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:36.440 marketing, and I've worked with some really good marketers, by the way, 461 00:28:36.440 --> 00:28:41.950 and I've worked with some very average markers to sorry, sorry to all the 462 00:28:41.990 --> 00:28:45.029 average marketers out there. Yeah, I think you have to be careful of 463 00:28:45.109 --> 00:28:49.829 how much money you're spending to build a brand early pace life cycle. I 464 00:28:49.950 --> 00:28:55.029 think that can be a waste of money. I think your best brand building 465 00:28:55.349 --> 00:28:59.619 in. The best ambassadors to your brand are great customers and great customer references. 466 00:29:00.619 --> 00:29:03.740 So whatever you do, find the market leader, find the marquee customers, 467 00:29:04.660 --> 00:29:08.220 get the value story out of them and use them as your ambassadors, 468 00:29:08.299 --> 00:29:11.769 whatever it takes. That is going to do much more for your brand than 469 00:29:11.849 --> 00:29:15.490 you out claiming that you're the best or the brightest. It's something I do 470 00:29:15.690 --> 00:29:21.529 think. It's a lot about the value. It's it's the product market fit, 471 00:29:21.650 --> 00:29:26.480 it's the buyer characteristics. So you know, I'll play the one argument 472 00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:32.799 is spend all kinds of things on website and trade shows and PR and all 473 00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:37.200 and at the right time all those things can be effective. But sometimes, 474 00:29:37.240 --> 00:29:41.349 if you really know the characteristics of the buyer, just go out, spend 475 00:29:41.390 --> 00:29:45.150 that money, go buy lists, go by, go by industry lists of 476 00:29:45.470 --> 00:29:49.950 this particular individual and feed it to your inside sales organization and have them pound 477 00:29:49.990 --> 00:29:53.259 the phones, just pound the phones and get the demos and you know, 478 00:29:53.380 --> 00:29:59.539 sometimes that's a better investment than the sort of more grandiose branding. And I 479 00:29:59.779 --> 00:30:03.539 don't hope that comes off the right way, but it's HMMMM. Sometimes you 480 00:30:03.579 --> 00:30:07.329 have to be tactical and there's a time to be more grand in your in 481 00:30:07.410 --> 00:30:11.809 your marketing approach, which is, you know, brand building and getting the 482 00:30:11.890 --> 00:30:15.250 PR and really trying to cast for strong that maybe that's, you know, 483 00:30:15.410 --> 00:30:18.049 prior to going public, as an example, really trying to build it up 484 00:30:18.089 --> 00:30:21.880 or on the road to getting public. But if you're an early stage company 485 00:30:21.920 --> 00:30:23.880 and you're trying to sell into the enterprise, I think it's really about what 486 00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:27.000 I would say is get tactle around your sales you know, really find the 487 00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:30.839 buyer and trying to go after them. Yeah, getting to real conversations with 488 00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:34.119 them, like you said right, understanding what their problems are, dealing with 489 00:30:34.279 --> 00:30:37.069 and see if there's a match. And am asked, is the B Tob 490 00:30:37.190 --> 00:30:41.349 World be to seas entirely different? It's a whole nother animal. So I 491 00:30:41.150 --> 00:30:45.269 touch. But I'm talking about be tob, I'm talking about enterprise be tob. 492 00:30:45.950 --> 00:30:48.109 Yeah, no question. No question. Let's talk about teams and then 493 00:30:48.150 --> 00:30:52.059 I'd like to transition to after the sale. What do you look for in 494 00:30:52.740 --> 00:30:57.140 putting a sales team together? How do you go about doing it and what 495 00:30:57.259 --> 00:31:00.700 are some of the pitfalls challenges with putting a good team together? Yeah, 496 00:31:00.740 --> 00:31:03.490 so, I mean I think you want diversity of thought. I think you 497 00:31:03.529 --> 00:31:07.609 went diversity in general about another large theme these days. Right. Yeah, 498 00:31:07.609 --> 00:31:11.690 agree, be that's a time for another podcast. Yeah, that's a whole 499 00:31:11.769 --> 00:31:15.930 one by itself. But either let's let's focus on diversity of thought. But 500 00:31:15.170 --> 00:31:18.519 you know, I think you know what industry they come from, the style, 501 00:31:18.680 --> 00:31:22.240 introvert, extrovert, experience. You know, I think you want diversity 502 00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:26.519 of thought. I think you want to put together people from different areas and 503 00:31:26.599 --> 00:31:30.240 they don't necessarily have to be from the industry. I think sometimes industry expertise 504 00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:33.710 helps and sometimes it just brings a whole bunch of bias that you have to 505 00:31:33.750 --> 00:31:37.990 actually break down. Yeah, I love that. That's meantastic because I've experienced 506 00:31:38.029 --> 00:31:41.710 that very thing. Honestly. Sometimes, a blank slate, you come in 507 00:31:41.829 --> 00:31:45.549 and you really get completely objective about well, what is this about or what 508 00:31:45.910 --> 00:31:48.859 it really is? You see it much more clearly rather than see it through 509 00:31:48.099 --> 00:31:52.140 the eyes of what you've experienced before, which is another product, another company, 510 00:31:52.339 --> 00:31:56.339 you know, another set of problems. So sometimes it's even you wants 511 00:31:56.420 --> 00:31:57.819 people not from the industry. And then, you know, I think it's 512 00:31:57.819 --> 00:32:00.490 a lot about well, first it's always about culture, you know. I 513 00:32:00.569 --> 00:32:05.130 mean build the right culture. But it's also, I think it's in the 514 00:32:05.250 --> 00:32:07.529 enterprise world. It's the balance between the inside and outside, and so I 515 00:32:07.650 --> 00:32:12.970 think the inside of strs and bdrs and how you construct that versus the outside 516 00:32:12.970 --> 00:32:15.359 around, you know, sales executives and maybe account management's part of that. 517 00:32:15.559 --> 00:32:20.079 That construction, I think, is very important. But you know, I 518 00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:22.880 think the most important point is scale. When you have, when you think 519 00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:28.319 you have a repeatable sales process, you know, hiring bushels of salespeople, 520 00:32:28.359 --> 00:32:30.869 when you don't have a strategy, you don't have a sales process, you 521 00:32:30.910 --> 00:32:34.269 don't have a unique value, you don't understand your buy or characteristics, is 522 00:32:34.349 --> 00:32:36.990 not going to work that you're just going to a lot of cash and you're 523 00:32:37.029 --> 00:32:38.470 not going to have a lot of success. So timing is part of it, 524 00:32:38.549 --> 00:32:43.309 but I do think the construction of inside to outside is key and that 525 00:32:43.430 --> 00:32:45.339 depends on a lot of things. Depends on how many leads you are generating, 526 00:32:45.339 --> 00:32:49.019 how many leads are coming from marketing. If you're using these listen, 527 00:32:49.059 --> 00:32:51.660 you're calling out what you're what you'r hit rate, what your success rate? 528 00:32:51.740 --> 00:32:54.180 It may be a case where you need one inside sales to one outside sales. 529 00:32:54.259 --> 00:32:59.210 Sometimes you need more inside sales, sometimes you need more exects to handle 530 00:32:59.250 --> 00:33:00.690 the leads coming out of inside sales, you know. So that balance is 531 00:33:00.930 --> 00:33:06.049 really around your metrics and your success rate, your conversion rates through the pipe, 532 00:33:06.089 --> 00:33:07.650 and that's a lot of that is around sales ops. I mean I 533 00:33:07.690 --> 00:33:13.240 think sales operations become absolutely critical, even more so in the small and medium 534 00:33:13.359 --> 00:33:17.359 enterprize segments, but even in large it's really about somebody who's at the helm 535 00:33:17.480 --> 00:33:21.680 very analytical, looking at the data for what it is, not listening to 536 00:33:21.799 --> 00:33:23.799 sales people tell you all the excuses, but really looking at the data. 537 00:33:23.960 --> 00:33:27.990 I think it's terrific. And you know, and we're work stride, there's 538 00:33:28.029 --> 00:33:30.230 times when we would change the script, the inside sales script, daily, 539 00:33:30.829 --> 00:33:34.630 you know. I mean we would have we'd be dialing the phone, somebody 540 00:33:34.710 --> 00:33:37.349 say this is really working. We would change the script right there, and 541 00:33:37.630 --> 00:33:42.940 so I think tweaking the dials is really important, very interesting. But yeah, 542 00:33:42.940 --> 00:33:46.740 the cons overall construction really I think the timing of how you spend that 543 00:33:46.980 --> 00:33:51.779 money is is equal to the talent that you can find as well. I 544 00:33:51.859 --> 00:33:53.819 have a question that I get a lot and that is when do you bring 545 00:33:53.940 --> 00:33:59.529 in a head of sales, is it right away or is it after a 546 00:33:59.730 --> 00:34:01.769 very specific milestone or point you talked about, you know, when you get 547 00:34:01.769 --> 00:34:05.410 a readpeable sales process, that sort of thing, and if you don't have 548 00:34:05.650 --> 00:34:07.650 one like before, you have one. Right. Is the CEO really the 549 00:34:08.050 --> 00:34:12.000 head of sales and is it is it important for the CEO to sort of 550 00:34:12.119 --> 00:34:15.760 live the sales experience for some time? I think it is, especially at 551 00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:20.079 early stage. I would say your CEO is the head of sales earlier on. 552 00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:23.239 I think that's pretty clear and I think it early stage company. You're 553 00:34:23.239 --> 00:34:27.949 not going to close any substance of deals without the CEOS involvement just because of 554 00:34:28.030 --> 00:34:30.230 the risk part of that quotient. Right. I don't think any worden buyers 555 00:34:30.309 --> 00:34:34.389 going to buy anything unless they see the whites of the eyes of person leading 556 00:34:34.469 --> 00:34:37.429 the company and make sure that they have the commitment and a wherewithal to support 557 00:34:37.510 --> 00:34:42.860 them. So you are the the chief salesperson, but honestly I lean a 558 00:34:42.900 --> 00:34:45.539 little bit towards earlier on getting the sales execting, because I think the sales 559 00:34:45.579 --> 00:34:52.659 exact also should be participating actively, if not driving, those processes of the 560 00:34:52.659 --> 00:34:55.130 unique value and the buyer characteristics and figuring that out. I think that's a 561 00:34:55.369 --> 00:34:59.929 key part of that job. So and it's it's a fulltime thing, you 562 00:35:00.010 --> 00:35:02.250 know. I mean there's not like as a CEO, you have a lot 563 00:35:02.369 --> 00:35:07.480 of demands on your time and you know, I think getting somebody in who 564 00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:09.760 every day, twenty four by seven, is thinking sales is probably better. 565 00:35:09.800 --> 00:35:14.519 So I would lean earlier to have a VP of sales. But early means 566 00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:16.440 you have a few customers, you think you've figured it out, or you 567 00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:20.079 have figured it out and you're ready to scale. Got It. Does that 568 00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:22.829 make sense? Yeah, it does. I think that's so true. The 569 00:35:22.269 --> 00:35:28.030 figuring out when you have the process kind of working is always the challenge, 570 00:35:28.070 --> 00:35:30.110 even to my own experience. Right, you know, depending on the markets 571 00:35:30.150 --> 00:35:35.309 and depending on the maturity of the pollution you're selling. Right, you might 572 00:35:35.349 --> 00:35:38.300 have closed some deals, but you probably don't have a scalable process yet, 573 00:35:38.340 --> 00:35:42.940 especially since as a CEO you may not have experience creating one. So so 574 00:35:43.900 --> 00:35:45.179 they may not be a process to speak of. You just know that you 575 00:35:45.460 --> 00:35:49.219 manage to do about a handful of deals right. Well, and guess what? 576 00:35:49.420 --> 00:35:52.489 It's going to change. Whatever it is. I mean the market is 577 00:35:52.530 --> 00:35:55.489 dynamic. Your competitors are not going to stand pat and say hey, you're 578 00:35:55.530 --> 00:35:59.090 winning all those deals. You know, they're going to jump their story, 579 00:35:59.130 --> 00:36:01.489 they're going to adjust their strategy, they're going to adopt your positioning. So 580 00:36:02.090 --> 00:36:07.159 it's very dynamic. I mean, you can't change your sales process every day, 581 00:36:07.559 --> 00:36:10.079 but you know you might have to midyear say look, this is our 582 00:36:10.159 --> 00:36:13.840 plan, this was our playbook. We have to make, you know, 583 00:36:13.880 --> 00:36:15.039 a little bit of a tweak to the play here at this play is not 584 00:36:15.159 --> 00:36:19.269 working or someone else's come in is running the same play better than us. 585 00:36:19.389 --> 00:36:22.789 You know, God forbid. So exactly? You know, yeah, it's 586 00:36:22.829 --> 00:36:24.389 fine aid. Yeah, no question about it. And and I think that's 587 00:36:24.389 --> 00:36:29.389 why it's so hard for CEO's at times. You know, building a successful, 588 00:36:29.469 --> 00:36:31.389 repeatable sales process. You know, think about all the things we've talked 589 00:36:31.429 --> 00:36:34.739 about. Right, you've got to find the right pain, you've got to 590 00:36:34.820 --> 00:36:37.139 know who has that pain. You got to find that person, figure out 591 00:36:37.139 --> 00:36:38.780 how to create a process to get in front of that person. You know, 592 00:36:39.139 --> 00:36:43.500 turn the conversation into, you know, an opportunity and push it through 593 00:36:43.500 --> 00:36:45.860 a process and then ultimately get a sale. And and then how you do 594 00:36:46.059 --> 00:36:50.530 that you know, to the point you just made, may change maybe, 595 00:36:50.809 --> 00:36:53.289 you know, daily, monthly, quarterly, depending on how many new entrants 596 00:36:53.369 --> 00:36:58.329 into the space, and so you really need to think through that as you 597 00:36:58.449 --> 00:37:00.440 build the team, because you're going to want a team, as you said, 598 00:37:00.440 --> 00:37:06.440 that has the flexibility and the ability to transform as the need arises and 599 00:37:06.519 --> 00:37:09.480 a leader that is totally comfortable doing that right. And so I get your 600 00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:13.920 point about bringing a person in earlier, because at least they get to help 601 00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:16.429 architect that and if they're wired right or they have, you know, good 602 00:37:16.469 --> 00:37:21.269 sales operations person, then they can get the data they need to make those 603 00:37:21.309 --> 00:37:22.909 changes. But if they can be challenging, I would imagine. Yeah, 604 00:37:23.030 --> 00:37:27.309 I think that's right and I would add one of the thing when you do 605 00:37:27.510 --> 00:37:30.739 bring the sales executive in higher for the here and now. I think one 606 00:37:30.780 --> 00:37:35.300 of the mistakes that CEO's make, especially the earlier, you know, first 607 00:37:35.300 --> 00:37:37.460 time ceeos, is they say, well, we want to find somebody who 608 00:37:37.900 --> 00:37:43.619 can scale he them. Yeah, exactly, and yeah, there did. 609 00:37:43.699 --> 00:37:45.889 By the way, I say I laugh when I say because I've made the 610 00:37:45.969 --> 00:37:47.929 mistake. What do yeah, you do. Yeah, it's somebody when they 611 00:37:49.050 --> 00:37:52.730 walk in the door on the very first day and sits at the desk and 612 00:37:52.809 --> 00:37:55.170 puts their hands in the keyboard or the phone, knows exactly what to do 613 00:37:55.610 --> 00:38:00.079 right and if they run out of gas a year from now or two years 614 00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:01.679 from now or three years from now, so be it. But exactly, 615 00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:06.960 don't, boy, don't get the person in who's got the great pedigree who 616 00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:12.039 actually doesn't actually do anything. They just preside. You know, you weres, 617 00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:15.590 not presiders. Yeah, no question about that. Do you think that 618 00:38:15.630 --> 00:38:19.070 applies to the entire management team? By the way, I do, absolutely, 619 00:38:19.190 --> 00:38:22.989 I do. I think that all the all the things we talked about, 620 00:38:22.190 --> 00:38:25.909 you know, diversity of thought, I think different backgrounds, I think 621 00:38:27.070 --> 00:38:30.860 general diversity is critical. But whatever the role is, you know, I 622 00:38:31.019 --> 00:38:36.139 want them to be impactful day one and you know, if, eighteen months 623 00:38:36.139 --> 00:38:39.019 from now they don't scale for whatever reason, you know, you cross that 624 00:38:39.139 --> 00:38:42.610 bridge when you come to it, but when you're an early stage company, 625 00:38:42.610 --> 00:38:45.489 eighteen months is a long time, right, you got to get there. 626 00:38:45.730 --> 00:38:47.889 And Yeah, so, like that's been my philosophy and, by the way, 627 00:38:49.250 --> 00:38:52.369 I've made that mistake. I make that mistake by going for the the 628 00:38:52.329 --> 00:38:55.400 large name rather than the person who can roll up to sleeves and get it 629 00:38:55.440 --> 00:39:00.159 done. Yeah, yeah, I've been there too, getting the big name 630 00:39:00.280 --> 00:39:04.079 successful person, maybe from another large company. You know, they can scale 631 00:39:04.119 --> 00:39:07.360 or the company can scale into their experience, you know, in which you 632 00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:10.909 quickly learned, is you want that person to hit the road running. And 633 00:39:12.030 --> 00:39:15.510 the other issue, and they are not used to that. First thing. 634 00:39:15.550 --> 00:39:16.670 They want to come in and so while I need a person to do this 635 00:39:16.789 --> 00:39:20.389 in a person who, yeah, Te need that big dig a big team. 636 00:39:20.590 --> 00:39:22.550 They need a you now and you pay them a lot of money. 637 00:39:22.550 --> 00:39:23.739 Then they have to bring all the entourage and with them. So right, 638 00:39:23.820 --> 00:39:28.099 right where. You know. It's not wise. It's find the practition or 639 00:39:28.139 --> 00:39:30.099 find the person who can make an a medium pact. That's the person you 640 00:39:30.179 --> 00:39:32.900 want. Yeah, we're gonna move on. You're triggering my ptsd on this 641 00:39:34.019 --> 00:39:38.610 own decisue. Okay, so you close a deal and now you have customers. 642 00:39:38.650 --> 00:39:42.210 Right. So, I feel like, at least in my experience, 643 00:39:42.329 --> 00:39:45.730 and I want to know your experience, how important continuing to sell right after 644 00:39:45.730 --> 00:39:51.010 you've had the customer, keeping them happy and, you know, growing your 645 00:39:51.050 --> 00:39:54.239 business with them? How important is that as a process, as a focus 646 00:39:54.400 --> 00:39:59.679 for the company and the CEO, I think it's a huge potential area for 647 00:39:59.760 --> 00:40:05.119 a let down and again, experience speaking here, there's so much energy put 648 00:40:05.199 --> 00:40:09.829 into the sale that when close the deal there's this inevitable collective exhale like, 649 00:40:09.989 --> 00:40:15.630 Oh God, we close this tremendous customer isn't this great? And many times 650 00:40:15.789 --> 00:40:21.739 the handoff is poor. You know, I think the chasm between sales and 651 00:40:22.500 --> 00:40:27.340 delivery is large, larger than it needs to be. So I think the 652 00:40:27.460 --> 00:40:31.739 whole concept of the handoff from sales to an engagement manager or the purse project 653 00:40:31.780 --> 00:40:35.659 manager, of the person who's going to run the launch in the implementation of 654 00:40:35.769 --> 00:40:39.329 that launch is absolutely critical. So that's key. And part of that is 655 00:40:39.409 --> 00:40:44.170 when do you bring the delivery people or the people that are going to be 656 00:40:44.210 --> 00:40:47.250 responsible for that into the sales process so they can kind of hit that ramp 657 00:40:47.369 --> 00:40:50.880 running, if you know what I mean. They know the business and they 658 00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:53.920 kind of the elements of the problem in the situation. So that's a process 659 00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:58.840 that often is very immature in earlier stage companies. I know it was in 660 00:40:58.960 --> 00:41:00.800 ours. It was just, you know, it's two different teams focused on 661 00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:05.989 two different things and the customer gets caught in between. So that's huge I 662 00:41:06.110 --> 00:41:07.829 think the other thing is post launch. You know, you talk about how 663 00:41:07.869 --> 00:41:13.389 to maintain, you know, the communications with a customer and I'm a big 664 00:41:13.510 --> 00:41:16.349 believer in net promoter score and MPs. I think, you know, quarterly 665 00:41:16.510 --> 00:41:22.219 surveys or minimum semi annual surveys go out to customers and you know, anything 666 00:41:22.340 --> 00:41:27.179 less than a promoter is a red alert. You know, anyone that tractor, 667 00:41:27.219 --> 00:41:29.940 obviously, but even passes is a reddle art. If it's not nine 668 00:41:29.980 --> 00:41:32.449 or ten or not active promoters, it's a problem and I think what I 669 00:41:32.530 --> 00:41:37.369 would suggest is executive involvement for anything under a nine, anything under a promoter, 670 00:41:37.570 --> 00:41:40.610 and that could be anybody. That could be shared across the exact team. 671 00:41:40.650 --> 00:41:44.449 You know, it can't all be the CEO. I mean you see 672 00:41:45.050 --> 00:41:46.440 to be involved the most critical ones, obviously, but can be anyone and 673 00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:50.920 I think that has to be built into the executive team culture that this is 674 00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:53.440 about customers and if we have somebody who's not happy, nothing else is more 675 00:41:53.480 --> 00:41:57.960 important because you know it, you just cost so much money to acquire a 676 00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:00.429 customer that losing them is just critical. So yeah, I mean that's that's 677 00:42:00.670 --> 00:42:05.469 I'm a huge believer in building a process of playbook, if you will, 678 00:42:05.550 --> 00:42:08.030 how you hand over, how you gather the requirements in implement and then, 679 00:42:08.110 --> 00:42:10.869 post launch, how do you support that customer? Yeah, so true, 680 00:42:10.909 --> 00:42:15.710 right. I mean, we because you're so immersed in that selling process you 681 00:42:15.820 --> 00:42:20.820 forget that you've got to deliver on all these promises you've made and there's a 682 00:42:20.940 --> 00:42:24.420 lot that goes into going from, you know, understanding the problem to solving 683 00:42:24.460 --> 00:42:30.090 the problem for the customer to so much that's happening inside the customer, political 684 00:42:30.130 --> 00:42:34.010 things and execution things. You've really got to think through a lot of that. 685 00:42:34.090 --> 00:42:37.090 It's almost, you know, a multiple of terms of investment. Then 686 00:42:37.090 --> 00:42:40.210 the selling process, right, because it's so important that the customer is successful. 687 00:42:40.210 --> 00:42:44.360 What your solution. You know, gets it there, roy gets it 688 00:42:44.440 --> 00:42:47.480 within a certain time frame and continues to be happy with the solution for some 689 00:42:47.599 --> 00:42:52.159 time. Right, there's a lot going on there and it's very often we 690 00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:55.599 forget to invest in building the playbook or the process that's going to make that 691 00:42:55.639 --> 00:42:59.630 a win for the company. Yeah, I mean sometimes the company sees the 692 00:42:59.670 --> 00:43:01.630 close of a sale as the finish line, to customers sees as the starting 693 00:43:01.710 --> 00:43:06.630 line. Yeah, exactly, no question about it. You know, it's 694 00:43:06.670 --> 00:43:08.349 just it's terrible. By the way, have you ever signed a bad deal? 695 00:43:08.829 --> 00:43:14.380 Ever done a bad deal? I'd love to say no. Tell the 696 00:43:14.420 --> 00:43:17.019 truth now. It is the truth. This is truthful podcast. Yeahs. 697 00:43:17.019 --> 00:43:22.619 Look, I think this is another this is a classic pothole that companies step 698 00:43:22.780 --> 00:43:25.539 in, and that is signing up the customer, the Marquis customer, and 699 00:43:25.579 --> 00:43:30.969 then doing whatever it is that they want to make them happy. And what 700 00:43:31.170 --> 00:43:36.570 happens is you build this Frankenstein of a one off solution for this customer and 701 00:43:36.610 --> 00:43:40.210 it doesn't align with your product direction. It really you can't scale that, 702 00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:45.679 whatever you've built for them and it becomes this Albatross. And I know why 703 00:43:45.719 --> 00:43:47.679 you do it. You doing it often times because you desperately need a customer 704 00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:51.559 and you need the revenue money. I get it, I've been there, 705 00:43:51.599 --> 00:43:54.199 I've lived it, I understand it. But HMM, that's the biggest challenge 706 00:43:54.239 --> 00:43:59.550 with enterprise is all this custom things that you promise in the sales process. 707 00:43:59.550 --> 00:44:02.070 It has to align with your product direction. It has to align with your 708 00:44:02.110 --> 00:44:06.670 vision and mission for the company or you can't scale. Simple as that. 709 00:44:06.949 --> 00:44:09.699 So you know, look, I think so. So measuring the customer. 710 00:44:09.900 --> 00:44:14.260 Sometimes you have to stop it. Hopefully you stop in the sales but you 711 00:44:14.300 --> 00:44:16.139 know, hopefully you make this decision before you invest a whole lot of money 712 00:44:16.139 --> 00:44:20.539 in the sales process. I think that's where your pipeline management has to have 713 00:44:20.659 --> 00:44:23.329 gates where you know, as you begin to matriculate and spend money sales, 714 00:44:23.530 --> 00:44:27.849 you know, real sales dollars on an opportunity, that that opportunity and the 715 00:44:27.849 --> 00:44:30.250 characteristics of it has to align with we're trying to take the company. Otherwise 716 00:44:30.369 --> 00:44:36.409 just stopped because nothing good comes out of it and it's really hard to say 717 00:44:36.969 --> 00:44:39.840 we're not going to pursue this. That's so hard. You know, it's 718 00:44:39.880 --> 00:44:43.880 a hard message for the salesperson, it's a hard message to the company. 719 00:44:44.039 --> 00:44:47.320 But sometimes it's the pragmatic way because, you know, we found, you 720 00:44:47.400 --> 00:44:51.159 know, one of the things in a recent experience was, you know, 721 00:44:51.199 --> 00:44:55.030 there was some customer dissatisfaction. So we executed on the net promoter score and 722 00:44:55.110 --> 00:45:00.110 we started this executive evolved through. We also di did a customer profitability analysis 723 00:45:00.190 --> 00:45:02.909 of our customers. What are we really spending across our customer base to support 724 00:45:02.909 --> 00:45:07.260 them? And you also find some things out of that that are very insightful. 725 00:45:07.380 --> 00:45:09.980 You know, you rank the customers by sort of size and profitability, 726 00:45:10.539 --> 00:45:14.659 but also how much you have to do support them, and sometimes you find 727 00:45:14.739 --> 00:45:19.500 that there's not even the largest customers are just soaking up all this support time 728 00:45:19.619 --> 00:45:22.769 or, you know, all these demands on the team. So that's something 729 00:45:22.769 --> 00:45:29.449 I would highly recommend, is somehow getting customer profitability profile across your customer base 730 00:45:30.010 --> 00:45:31.449 and really taking a look at where you spend the money. And it's hard. 731 00:45:31.570 --> 00:45:35.130 Sometimes you have to make assumptions and it's not all clear, but the 732 00:45:35.170 --> 00:45:37.039 fact that it's hard isn't reason not to do it. And then that affects 733 00:45:37.039 --> 00:45:39.840 you how you interact with the customers, you know. I mean sometimes you 734 00:45:39.960 --> 00:45:44.679 have to, as I was say, appeal to their business judgment. You 735 00:45:45.079 --> 00:45:47.079 say, look, we love you and we understand what you're trying to do, 736 00:45:47.239 --> 00:45:52.510 but we're not making any money, you know, and something has to 737 00:45:52.630 --> 00:45:57.269 change, and those are really hard conversation to have, but that's part of 738 00:45:57.309 --> 00:45:59.590 the game. You know, it's love and money. You know, I 739 00:45:59.670 --> 00:46:00.789 have to you have to grow the business, but you have to also grow 740 00:46:00.829 --> 00:46:05.500 profitability. So Yeah, Oh man, I love what you just said because 741 00:46:05.539 --> 00:46:10.619 it's so true. I agree that the perfect dashboard is nps and profitability and 742 00:46:10.820 --> 00:46:15.860 resource drain right, because you're right, there may be some customers that just 743 00:46:15.460 --> 00:46:22.050 take an overwhelming amount of resources and makes the company potentially unprofitable. And if 744 00:46:22.090 --> 00:46:24.889 you don't know that, it's like an imagine you're on this boat and as 745 00:46:24.889 --> 00:46:29.690 a leak. You don't know prest actually you know, you don't know it's 746 00:46:29.730 --> 00:46:32.360 there and suddenly the thing sinks and all of a sudden, you know everybody's 747 00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:36.800 drowning in the water. You don't know why. That's what ultimately happens. 748 00:46:37.159 --> 00:46:38.480 You know, I had a had this story. I've been telling it. 749 00:46:38.559 --> 00:46:42.599 They called the Pepto Bismol story, and it basically I went to a customer 750 00:46:42.760 --> 00:46:46.269 and I showed up because I did that analysis, because I felt something was 751 00:46:46.349 --> 00:46:49.429 wrong, like I you know, I felt like, you know, we 752 00:46:49.550 --> 00:46:53.269 were drowning, and we did that analysis and I went into visit with the 753 00:46:53.309 --> 00:46:57.590 customer and I sat down and says, well, you know, just as 754 00:46:57.590 --> 00:46:59.989 always, nice to see you John. What are we talking about? And 755 00:47:00.110 --> 00:47:01.900 I pulled a bottle of pepto Bismol out of my bag and put it on 756 00:47:01.940 --> 00:47:07.179 the table and says you're going to need that, and I said and I 757 00:47:07.300 --> 00:47:09.460 said he says. Well, okay, what's that about? He says, 758 00:47:09.460 --> 00:47:13.820 well, basically, you know, we're not making any money. You know 759 00:47:14.059 --> 00:47:16.170 we are not making any money being, you know, your supplier, your 760 00:47:16.250 --> 00:47:20.929 service provider, and that's creating a real challenge for us as a business. 761 00:47:21.650 --> 00:47:25.409 What surprised me about the conversation was how open they were to that conversation, 762 00:47:27.250 --> 00:47:30.280 because chances are they don't know how much they drain of you. They just 763 00:47:30.360 --> 00:47:32.440 sort of assume it's okay and that you're scaling and you know they're paying their 764 00:47:32.519 --> 00:47:36.679 due share. Right. I think you're right on and that that is one 765 00:47:36.679 --> 00:47:39.440 of the things that I constantly preach to the team. You know, based 766 00:47:39.480 --> 00:47:44.280 on my experience, is similar to yours, if you repeal to their business 767 00:47:44.309 --> 00:47:46.750 judgment, one of two things is going to happen. Either they're going to 768 00:47:46.829 --> 00:47:50.909 say, thank you for sharing that with me, and I understand, and 769 00:47:51.949 --> 00:47:55.349 we don't want our suppliers not making money because you know we're not going to 770 00:47:55.469 --> 00:48:00.340 be. That's that's not a long terms recipe for success for us. Right, 771 00:48:00.099 --> 00:48:06.300 that's the right response, or they say we don't care in the heck 772 00:48:06.340 --> 00:48:08.179 with you. You sign a contract, do what I told well, either 773 00:48:08.219 --> 00:48:12.460 way, that conversation is going to be really enlightening. Right, yeah, 774 00:48:12.500 --> 00:48:14.449 you're going to learn a lot about you're going to learn a lots. Go 775 00:48:14.610 --> 00:48:19.409 have have a conversation earlier, appeal to their business judgment and I would suggest 776 00:48:19.530 --> 00:48:22.289 that more times than not you get the the response you want rather than second 777 00:48:22.329 --> 00:48:25.130 and if you get the second response, Hey, you know, you know 778 00:48:25.210 --> 00:48:30.199 where you're at. So that's when we have moved to plan B. Yeah, 779 00:48:30.320 --> 00:48:32.000 no question about it. This has been great. Jim, I'd like 780 00:48:32.079 --> 00:48:37.880 to take all of your the wealth of your experience, and start talking about 781 00:48:37.119 --> 00:48:42.389 today. You know, we are both in our homes, along with the 782 00:48:42.510 --> 00:48:46.110 rest of the world, slowly maybe escaping and getting some are as the lockdown 783 00:48:46.230 --> 00:48:52.230 is opening up for experiencing a pandemic for the first time and it's creating lots 784 00:48:52.269 --> 00:48:54.739 of change. There's lots of other events that we won't we won't get into 785 00:48:54.860 --> 00:49:00.420 here, but it's going to change a lot about how companies go to market. 786 00:49:00.699 --> 00:49:01.940 Or is it? What do you think? It's tough to say. 787 00:49:01.980 --> 00:49:06.739 I mean I think it's a yes, it's going to change. Your next 788 00:49:06.739 --> 00:49:09.130 question is how, and that's the tough one. Right, right, look, 789 00:49:09.250 --> 00:49:14.090 I mean this is a test of leadership this year, like I you 790 00:49:14.170 --> 00:49:17.369 know, that we maybe never had before. It is it is challenging times 791 00:49:17.489 --> 00:49:22.289 on many fronts. But you know. So a few thoughts on on sort 792 00:49:22.329 --> 00:49:24.199 of the pope. WHAT IS THE POST PANDEMIC WORLD? I think you know. 793 00:49:24.280 --> 00:49:28.559 I think your fundamental value probably is the same. Right. I don't 794 00:49:28.599 --> 00:49:31.199 think that change is dramatically. I think that's kind of key. Getting to 795 00:49:31.280 --> 00:49:37.559 the decisionmakers may actually easier, slightly easier, because I think no matter what 796 00:49:38.030 --> 00:49:42.030 you think about the demands on an executive schedule, so much of it was 797 00:49:42.110 --> 00:49:45.469 travel and meetings and conferences and all that and much of that is going to 798 00:49:45.510 --> 00:49:47.869 be stripped away for the the seeable future. So I think people have become, 799 00:49:49.349 --> 00:49:52.349 maybe I can use word, more humble. You know that the reality 800 00:49:52.389 --> 00:49:54.500 of life has hit us whole, you know, square on the jaw here 801 00:49:54.619 --> 00:49:59.340 over the past a few months. So you know, I think leaders maybe 802 00:49:59.340 --> 00:50:01.900 a slightly more approachable. So I think that's a good thing. Clearly there's 803 00:50:01.900 --> 00:50:07.690 a massive trend around the increase into distributed workforce. I don't see that changing. 804 00:50:07.010 --> 00:50:09.409 I think, you know, even as office is open up, I 805 00:50:09.570 --> 00:50:15.530 think the distributed workforce is, with the exception of very specific needs is here 806 00:50:15.610 --> 00:50:19.530 to stay. So whatever you're offering is has to, I think, take 807 00:50:19.570 --> 00:50:22.239 that into account, you know, whether that be the workflow management or wherever 808 00:50:22.440 --> 00:50:25.679 is around that. That has to be part of your story. But I 809 00:50:25.800 --> 00:50:30.000 think one of the last points, and this is I've been thinking a lot 810 00:50:30.039 --> 00:50:35.869 about this, you know, is that if you relied on physical presence in 811 00:50:35.949 --> 00:50:37.630 the past, you know a lot of people just have great presence. You 812 00:50:37.710 --> 00:50:42.150 know, they walk in a room and somehow people pay attention. HMM. 813 00:50:42.309 --> 00:50:46.469 You're going to learn to replicate that over Zuome or some sort of collaborative thing, 814 00:50:46.550 --> 00:50:49.429 right. Yeah, and that's hard. You know, how do you? 815 00:50:49.590 --> 00:50:52.739 How do you change and begin to build presence over a video? Yeah, 816 00:50:52.860 --> 00:50:55.820 Chat. So it's going to be different. I do believe that. 817 00:50:57.420 --> 00:51:00.699 Look, I'm an optimist. I'm an optimist on all fronts. I don't 818 00:51:00.699 --> 00:51:01.900 believe you can be a CEO not being optimist. I think you have to 819 00:51:01.940 --> 00:51:06.530 be a realist as well, but I lean towards the optimistic. So I 820 00:51:06.690 --> 00:51:09.329 think that we use a country find a cure for the pandemic. I think 821 00:51:09.489 --> 00:51:13.969 we start this thing starts to open up, I think travel begins to resume. 822 00:51:14.170 --> 00:51:15.849 It's a long road it's not a short road, but at the end 823 00:51:15.889 --> 00:51:19.719 of the day, you know, the businesses have to run. So you 824 00:51:19.800 --> 00:51:22.360 know you have to think about your value proposition. If it needs to change. 825 00:51:22.519 --> 00:51:25.559 I would take the assumption that it doesn't. But you know, unless 826 00:51:25.559 --> 00:51:29.840 you're in something that it in the you know, if you're into commercial real 827 00:51:29.880 --> 00:51:32.150 estate, you know that's a bit challenging right now. But even that companies 828 00:51:32.150 --> 00:51:35.469 are trying to figure out what do we do? So there's an opportunity to 829 00:51:35.469 --> 00:51:37.349 add value there too. So you know, it's hard to say, John, 830 00:51:37.710 --> 00:51:40.630 it's really hard to say, but I think as a leader you just 831 00:51:40.789 --> 00:51:45.949 need to continue to exude optimism, to give people a voice, to be 832 00:51:45.070 --> 00:51:49.500 sympathetic with the needs. I mean, whether it be pandemic related or some 833 00:51:49.579 --> 00:51:52.260 of the other things you're going on. Just be try to be open about 834 00:51:52.340 --> 00:51:55.619 that and try to create a form so people feel like you're listening, and 835 00:51:55.900 --> 00:52:00.780 that's really the leadership challenge that we all face right now, no question about 836 00:52:00.780 --> 00:52:04.329 it. Thanks for sharing that. Now give me your perspective on a new 837 00:52:04.489 --> 00:52:08.489 CEO first time or starting a company now, it would advice would you give 838 00:52:08.530 --> 00:52:10.650 that person? Well, first of all, I think it's a great time 839 00:52:10.650 --> 00:52:14.170 to start a company. Yeah, I agree. I think it's just a 840 00:52:14.250 --> 00:52:17.000 great time. I think this is when Marcus are disrupted, is the best 841 00:52:17.039 --> 00:52:22.360 time to start. So I would make if you're waiting to take the leap 842 00:52:22.440 --> 00:52:23.679 and now it's time take the leap. I mean obviously a lot of things 843 00:52:23.719 --> 00:52:28.760 around that, you know, your personal situation and money and all those good 844 00:52:28.840 --> 00:52:30.949 things, but I think, you know, putting those factors aside, I 845 00:52:30.949 --> 00:52:35.030 think it's a great time. I've look I think there's some there's some tremendous 846 00:52:35.070 --> 00:52:38.789 trends that are coming out of this post pandemic world and in this whole cultural 847 00:52:38.829 --> 00:52:42.869 impact. I think you know. I think if you can think about that 848 00:52:43.630 --> 00:52:46.179 and teas out these trends, I think there's some things that could be very 849 00:52:46.260 --> 00:52:51.940 interesting. But you know, my advice to the first time CEOS is, 850 00:52:52.179 --> 00:52:54.659 you know, try and find a mentor find mentors. You know that that's 851 00:52:55.179 --> 00:52:59.650 network. That's the most key thing. Try to find people who have done 852 00:52:59.690 --> 00:53:01.489 this before. You know, I think you know, you and I were 853 00:53:01.570 --> 00:53:06.969 both in a CEO form where I think is an excellent way for that those 854 00:53:07.010 --> 00:53:10.289 learnings to present themselves and I think that's that's one mechanism. But you know, 855 00:53:10.449 --> 00:53:14.519 even outside of that, you know you're going to have a lot of 856 00:53:14.639 --> 00:53:17.920 different challenges thrown your way and I think try to find people who have been 857 00:53:17.960 --> 00:53:21.559 there before and done that before, or and try not to step in the 858 00:53:21.599 --> 00:53:24.199 same pot holes. And you know, investors are tricky people. They're not 859 00:53:24.480 --> 00:53:28.469 really your friend. I always had an expression if you want a friend, 860 00:53:28.550 --> 00:53:30.989 get a dog, don't get an investor. You know I mean they they're 861 00:53:31.110 --> 00:53:37.349 support of but you know they're there to make money and they're not your friend 862 00:53:37.469 --> 00:53:40.429 per se. They can be friendly. So just be careful about building your 863 00:53:40.429 --> 00:53:44.219 syndicate and where you get money from and all those things. Those are really 864 00:53:44.260 --> 00:53:47.820 critical decisions. Got It. What was different for you between running a venture 865 00:53:47.860 --> 00:53:52.300 back company and a p Back Company? There's great differences between those. Or 866 00:53:52.699 --> 00:53:57.409 yeah, that's a terrific question, you know. So this my most recent 867 00:53:57.489 --> 00:54:00.050 experience. It works. I was my first peback company back by the Riverside 868 00:54:00.090 --> 00:54:05.809 Company and before that I had been primarily working with VC's. M major difference 869 00:54:05.929 --> 00:54:08.329 is really the investment discipline, I mean how it's run. So VC's tend 870 00:54:08.369 --> 00:54:10.719 to make, as you know, a lot of bets and hope a couple 871 00:54:10.719 --> 00:54:15.960 of them get big and pay outside returns. Private Equity Companies, you know, 872 00:54:15.159 --> 00:54:19.880 typically make, I would say, maybe less investments over a shorter time 873 00:54:20.039 --> 00:54:23.079 frame, and maybe you know that short time frame of usually typically three to 874 00:54:23.199 --> 00:54:25.829 five years or six, you know, somewhere around there, and they're typically 875 00:54:25.869 --> 00:54:30.590 investing in successful companies, companies that have already gotten over some of the hurdles 876 00:54:30.630 --> 00:54:34.150 that we spoke about today, and the mission is really to improve growth and 877 00:54:34.230 --> 00:54:37.389 profitability, to professionalize the company, you know, through a management team or 878 00:54:37.469 --> 00:54:42.219 systems. So that's one of the biggest differences and I think the other is 879 00:54:42.340 --> 00:54:45.619 just a tremendous operational rigor of being in a p back company versus Venture Back 880 00:54:45.659 --> 00:54:50.699 Company. I mean we had dozens of KP eyes and metrics every aspect of 881 00:54:50.780 --> 00:54:53.610 the business. It's a very high touch environment. It's very collaborative, you 882 00:54:53.690 --> 00:54:58.329 know. It's weekly, monthly, quarterly rigger and I loved it. I 883 00:54:58.409 --> 00:55:00.849 actually learned a lot from it and I thought it was a great learning experience 884 00:55:00.889 --> 00:55:05.409 for me. But it's very different from from the VC world. So I 885 00:55:05.489 --> 00:55:08.159 don't know it's helpful, but I think that's at least my experiences, HMM, 886 00:55:08.559 --> 00:55:13.880 and perhaps it's something that you kind of grow into right as a CEO, 887 00:55:14.280 --> 00:55:16.559 probably the first time. It wouldn't fare very well in a pebacked environment 888 00:55:16.639 --> 00:55:21.000 because of that rigger. Well, I think I just wish I had. 889 00:55:21.199 --> 00:55:22.630 You know, like anything else in life, John, you wish you had 890 00:55:22.710 --> 00:55:25.989 no more when you started. Yeah, when I started, I started thinking 891 00:55:27.030 --> 00:55:29.710 of one of the big ideas here. How do we break through? You 892 00:55:29.789 --> 00:55:34.389 know, that's not the mission. The mission is three to five years. 893 00:55:34.510 --> 00:55:37.780 What's the incremental things? You write? Right, and that's a totally different 894 00:55:37.780 --> 00:55:40.300 that's a sort of different left brain, right brain thing. Right, that's 895 00:55:40.340 --> 00:55:45.780 a dead way to approach it. In in the PBACK environment you a lot 896 00:55:45.820 --> 00:55:47.940 of times make it a decision not to do something just because you're not going 897 00:55:47.940 --> 00:55:52.170 to get a return fast enough. Right, HMM. Versus an adventure. 898 00:55:52.610 --> 00:55:55.289 You know, we can't scale unless we do these things. You know, 899 00:55:55.690 --> 00:55:58.889 in the P world's like hey, we know this is a problem, but 900 00:55:58.929 --> 00:56:00.010 that's going to be the next guy's problem. We're going to run this for 901 00:56:00.369 --> 00:56:04.440 you know, the three years. You know that'll be done by the next 902 00:56:04.599 --> 00:56:07.079 so it's you got to get in that mindset. It's a different mindset. 903 00:56:07.199 --> 00:56:08.840 And Look, there's no better or worse. They're just different. You know, 904 00:56:09.440 --> 00:56:14.559 they both have their upside and downside of it, but I will say 905 00:56:14.800 --> 00:56:20.230 operational rigger is absolutely necessary and a pback company very interesting. Jim, this 906 00:56:20.349 --> 00:56:22.070 has been fantastic. Thanks very much for taking the time with us. My 907 00:56:22.269 --> 00:56:24.750 pleasure, John. Thank you for inviting me. Was a lot of fun. 908 00:56:24.789 --> 00:56:30.150 I had fun. Thanks for listening to this episode of the CEO Series 909 00:56:30.190 --> 00:56:32.900 on BB growth again, I'm John Bella's here from the CEO playbook. I 910 00:56:32.980 --> 00:56:37.500 hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. Remember selling as an 911 00:56:37.500 --> 00:56:39.340 art and you need to get out there and try it before building a team. 912 00:56:39.739 --> 00:56:44.380 Please connect with me on Linkedin, on the CEEO playbook page and twitter. 913 00:56:44.739 --> 00:56:46.929 I'm at John Bela's air CEO. I'd love to hear from you. 914 00:56:47.250 --> 00:56:52.289 Send questions my way or recommendations. If you like this episode, please leave 915 00:56:52.329 --> 00:56:54.369 a review and share it with a friend and if you have a question, 916 00:56:54.849 --> 00:57:00.690 join the conversation on instagram. We're at CEO PLAYBOOKCO. You can find more 917 00:57:00.730 --> 00:57:04.800 information about the CEO playbook and a host of articles on our website at CEEO 918 00:57:04.880 --> 00:57:08.840 playbookco. Don't forget to sign up for a popular weekly newsletter called Mental Candy. 919 00:57:09.039 --> 00:57:15.230 Until next time, keep pushing and stay healthy out there. Are you 920 00:57:15.349 --> 00:57:20.590 currently making the transition from founder to CEEO? Are you a first time CEO 921 00:57:20.670 --> 00:57:22.710 in the middle of a huge challenge, or you just curious about what it 922 00:57:22.829 --> 00:57:28.349 takes? Then you need to read CEO Playbook. It's an online publication full 923 00:57:28.349 --> 00:57:32.380 of stories from real CEOS and practical sage advice for leaders of high growth companies. 924 00:57:32.780 --> 00:57:37.619 Go to CEEO playbookccom to start reading some amazing content for free. You'll 925 00:57:37.619 --> 00:57:40.980 find out why over four hundred CEOS go here to learn what it's really like 926 00:57:42.380 --> 00:57:43.059 being CEO.