#CategoryCreation 20: When To Go After a New Category w/ Udi Ledergor

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:02.720 Hey, this is James, the founder of sweet fish media. If you've 2 00:00:02.720 --> 00:00:04.960 listened to beb growth for a while, you probably have an idea of what 3 00:00:05.040 --> 00:00:09.349 we're passionate about. Loving people really well, a constant pursuit of learning and 4 00:00:09.750 --> 00:00:14.390 inspiring people to own their careers. With all the craziness happening with this virus, 5 00:00:14.429 --> 00:00:18.670 we are incredibly fortunate to be in the business of podcasting. So many 6 00:00:18.670 --> 00:00:22.820 BB brands are looking for alternatives to their inperson events that are being canceled, 7 00:00:23.140 --> 00:00:27.100 and our business is growing as a result. Please don't miss hear me on 8 00:00:27.219 --> 00:00:31.300 this, because I'm not saying this to Brag. It is heartbreaking the economic 9 00:00:31.339 --> 00:00:35.100 impact this is having on so many businesses. But being in the business of 10 00:00:35.179 --> 00:00:39.729 podcasting, the demand for what we do has increased and because of that we're 11 00:00:39.770 --> 00:00:44.009 looking to hire really talented people to help us serve that demand. So if 12 00:00:44.049 --> 00:00:46.490 you like what we're all about, it street fish, and you're looking for 13 00:00:46.530 --> 00:00:49.770 a great career opportunity, hit us up. There's a link in the show 14 00:00:49.810 --> 00:00:52.759 notes where you can apply today. I'm really looking forward to meeting you. 15 00:00:54.719 --> 00:00:58.960 Hi there, welcome to the BDB growth show. This is John Rougie and 16 00:00:59.000 --> 00:01:03.590 I host our category creation series here. I'm also the VP of marketing strategy 17 00:01:03.670 --> 00:01:07.469 at bomb bomb, where we help you make more human connections with the people 18 00:01:07.469 --> 00:01:11.989 you do business with through personal one to one videos. All right, so 19 00:01:12.269 --> 00:01:17.670 I have a question for you. What do you do if you are already 20 00:01:18.030 --> 00:01:22.939 the leader of a category but you found that you've outgrown it? Well, 21 00:01:23.099 --> 00:01:29.659 that's exactly the situation that Gong found itself in. After having dominated the conversation 22 00:01:29.739 --> 00:01:34.370 intelligence space, they realized that that category was just too limiting. So that's 23 00:01:34.409 --> 00:01:40.250 why Udi Littergore, the CMO of Gong, decided to go after a new 24 00:01:40.370 --> 00:01:45.689 category that he is calling revenue intelligence. Now I have been dying to ask 25 00:01:45.769 --> 00:01:49.840 duty about this, which is why he is the guest on today's episode. 26 00:01:49.280 --> 00:01:53.599 So if you've ever wanted an inside look at what happens in the company that 27 00:01:55.079 --> 00:01:59.879 chooses to build a new category when they already lead an existing one, this 28 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:04.909 episode is for you. Booty, thanks for the being on the show today. 29 00:02:05.269 --> 00:02:07.509 Thanks for having a John Pleasure to be here. All right. Well, 30 00:02:07.550 --> 00:02:10.110 I know a lot of our listeners will have heard of you. You 31 00:02:10.469 --> 00:02:15.460 know, the Gong team is pretty prolific on on Linkedin and some other channels 32 00:02:15.500 --> 00:02:19.979 and I know you just recently spoken hypergrowth, but for someone who doesn't know 33 00:02:20.099 --> 00:02:23.060 about you or no much about Gong just, can you give me a brief 34 00:02:23.139 --> 00:02:28.939 bio of yourself? Sure, so myself, and then maybe gone, which 35 00:02:29.020 --> 00:02:34.090 is more interesting? I myself am a five time byb marketing. I've had 36 00:02:34.210 --> 00:02:38.129 the pleasure serving at companies, both private and public, and different sectors and 37 00:02:38.210 --> 00:02:42.810 different countries, currently at gone for the last three years, having a blast. 38 00:02:43.169 --> 00:02:46.520 Started in the Gong team in Israel three years ago and a little over 39 00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:51.120 a year ago I relocated to be with the rest of my growing team here 40 00:02:51.159 --> 00:02:54.639 in San Francisco, where our entire go to market team is great, great, 41 00:02:54.800 --> 00:03:00.310 because stuff just real quick. What's I'm not real familiar with the tech 42 00:03:00.389 --> 00:03:04.270 scene in Israel. How does that compare to to San Francisco? I think 43 00:03:04.430 --> 00:03:07.990 outside of the US Israel actually has the second largest text scene. So it's 44 00:03:07.990 --> 00:03:12.469 surprising. I heard a stat that I don't know if it's still accurate, 45 00:03:12.590 --> 00:03:16.259 that on NASDAC, after US and Canadian companies, Israel has the most companies 46 00:03:16.259 --> 00:03:20.819 listed on Nazac, the most tech companies. So Israel has a pretty, 47 00:03:20.979 --> 00:03:24.300 pretty huge Texti really no, I would not have guessed that it had was 48 00:03:24.340 --> 00:03:28.169 like right behind the US and Canada. It does. Yeah, yeah, 49 00:03:28.330 --> 00:03:31.409 crazy, good deal. All right, so I'm the last few guests I've 50 00:03:31.449 --> 00:03:35.289 started to ask the same question to kind of kick off our episode, and 51 00:03:36.289 --> 00:03:38.930 so I want to ask you the same question to see how your answer compares. 52 00:03:38.650 --> 00:03:43.520 It's a simple question, but answer might be long. It's how do 53 00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:46.240 you define category creation? How do you define category design? Oh Wow, 54 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:52.560 kind of prepped me on this one, John. How do I defind category 55 00:03:52.599 --> 00:04:00.509 design? I think category designer creation is the result of a process led by 56 00:04:00.270 --> 00:04:08.509 a company, after which the market, including customers, employees, investors and 57 00:04:08.629 --> 00:04:14.580 analysts, will have agreed that a new product category was created that did not 58 00:04:14.699 --> 00:04:18.540 exist before the company initiated its effort. It sounds maybe a little mechanical, 59 00:04:18.620 --> 00:04:23.259 but I think we'll all know what when we see it. So you company 60 00:04:23.339 --> 00:04:28.050 like gang insight can definitely credit itself for creating the customer success category. That 61 00:04:28.170 --> 00:04:31.730 there was no category before that. The term was hardly used and they definitely 62 00:04:31.970 --> 00:04:35.129 took it to the next level. Look a look at companies like drift, 63 00:04:35.170 --> 00:04:40.920 who coined conversational marketing. That did not exist before that. You could argue 64 00:04:41.000 --> 00:04:44.600 still an early stage of that category. But it's definitely a term that's widely 65 00:04:44.600 --> 00:04:48.079 accepted now and being used, if if only describe that one company, but 66 00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:50.920 that's that's a start. Sure. So the way you see it, it's 67 00:04:50.959 --> 00:04:55.870 it's not just a company talking about itself in a unique way, but that's 68 00:04:55.949 --> 00:05:00.230 more about the market. Or you can a third parties recognizing and identify that 69 00:05:00.550 --> 00:05:03.910 category as a thing that did not exist prior to that company coming about it 70 00:05:04.110 --> 00:05:08.500 bringing it to light. Here's here's a tweet this moment for you. I 71 00:05:08.620 --> 00:05:12.699 think that that claiming that you've created a categories kind of like claiming that you're 72 00:05:12.699 --> 00:05:15.540 a lady. If you have to say so, you're probably aren't. Right. 73 00:05:15.899 --> 00:05:18.819 Okay, so if you're the only one saying that you build a category, 74 00:05:18.939 --> 00:05:21.850 you haven't built a category. Yeah, okay, yeah, okay. 75 00:05:21.850 --> 00:05:26.730 So don't worry so much about trying to make that claim for yourself. I 76 00:05:26.889 --> 00:05:29.649 mean, go about it if you think that's the right move, but don't 77 00:05:29.649 --> 00:05:31.490 claim your category creator. Lets someone else. You're going to be the only 78 00:05:31.569 --> 00:05:34.089 one initially. You're going to be the only one talking about it, because 79 00:05:34.089 --> 00:05:36.720 that's how it works. Because you're creating something, you need to explain it 80 00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:41.680 to the world. But if, after a decent amount of time, there's 81 00:05:41.720 --> 00:05:45.759 going to be two, three years, sometimes ten years. But if the 82 00:05:45.959 --> 00:05:48.079 rest of the world hasn't caught up and agrees that this is a category, 83 00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:53.470 and I would even add to my previous definite antion that if other companies have 84 00:05:53.629 --> 00:05:57.269 not attached themselves to this category, you don't have a category. You just 85 00:05:57.389 --> 00:06:00.790 have a product with the weird description that no one really gets. You need 86 00:06:00.910 --> 00:06:04.019 other companies to want to attach themselves to that category. You want customers to 87 00:06:04.139 --> 00:06:09.579 have a budget light line item for that category, you want investors investing in 88 00:06:09.740 --> 00:06:13.660 competing companies in that category. Then you know you've got a category. Yeah, 89 00:06:13.740 --> 00:06:16.100 I like that idea of looking for a budget line item for the category 90 00:06:16.139 --> 00:06:21.449 because that means they're looking for is a solution within that space trap. That 91 00:06:21.610 --> 00:06:24.769 is the Holy Grill, that is the holy grail. If you look at 92 00:06:25.529 --> 00:06:30.170 categories that didn't exist fifteen years ago. Let's take marketing email automation. Fifteen 93 00:06:30.170 --> 00:06:32.560 years ago no one had a budget for that, or a few had. 94 00:06:33.040 --> 00:06:38.759 Today every single marketer, on his first day, has a budget light item 95 00:06:38.839 --> 00:06:43.720 for marketing email automation and they know that the vendors in that space are going 96 00:06:43.720 --> 00:06:46.519 to compete for that budget line item, but they don't have to create the 97 00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:48.949 budget light one that that is the holy grail of category building. You need 98 00:06:48.990 --> 00:06:53.550 a budget line item. So the argument is, which tool am I choosing? 99 00:06:53.670 --> 00:06:56.589 And for that you need competition. Like I said, I know very 100 00:06:56.629 --> 00:07:00.430 few products that are one product in the category that have a budget line item, 101 00:07:00.750 --> 00:07:04.620 even something as broad as crm. Everyone, every sales organization, every 102 00:07:04.660 --> 00:07:08.259 company, has a budget line item for C rm, but there's several vendors 103 00:07:08.300 --> 00:07:11.899 to choose from. Everyone has a any company who has marketing has email marketing 104 00:07:11.939 --> 00:07:14.939 as a budget line item, but you have several options toose from. That 105 00:07:15.100 --> 00:07:16.810 that's a really good sign that you build a category. Sure, and some 106 00:07:16.930 --> 00:07:20.689 of the spaces it's you or even hundreds of choices to choose from. Course. 107 00:07:20.930 --> 00:07:27.370 Yeah, so let's talk about going on a previous episode we interviewed Chris 108 00:07:27.490 --> 00:07:30.360 Orland, who at the time was think director of Product Marketing, and we 109 00:07:30.439 --> 00:07:34.639 talked about conversation intelligence. And even then there was a few months ago, 110 00:07:34.680 --> 00:07:39.120 but that felt like it was still kind of early stages. Way We certainly 111 00:07:39.160 --> 00:07:42.839 wasn't ten years in, but he mentioned a moment ago and recently you guys 112 00:07:42.879 --> 00:07:47.629 have shifted to revenue intelligence. So share some more background on that with me. 113 00:07:47.990 --> 00:07:53.509 Sure, happy to so. So gone launched just over three years ago 114 00:07:53.790 --> 00:07:58.980 our first Beta product, and at that point we followed conventional wisdom, which 115 00:07:59.180 --> 00:08:03.459 was avoid category creation at all costs. It's one of the most extensive, 116 00:08:05.459 --> 00:08:11.180 Far Fetched Marketing Exercises at company can do, especially in early stages, and 117 00:08:11.379 --> 00:08:13.170 so we did the the smart thing to do, which was to look for 118 00:08:13.250 --> 00:08:18.009 a category that we could latch onto, that has already gotten some market traction, 119 00:08:18.290 --> 00:08:22.970 that there were players in the space, there were investors who knew what 120 00:08:22.970 --> 00:08:24.610 it was, or customers who knew what it was. There or analysts to 121 00:08:24.649 --> 00:08:28.680 knew what it was, and that space was conversation intelligence. There were a 122 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:31.679 couple of very early stage company with little traction, but it was it was 123 00:08:31.720 --> 00:08:37.399 a thing, and so we define ourself in that category of conversation intelligence and 124 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:41.750 we quickly became the leader of that category. As many would argue, if 125 00:08:41.789 --> 00:08:46.870 you look at the reviews sites like Gtwo or Captera, Gong is clearly the 126 00:08:46.950 --> 00:08:50.830 distant number one in both satisfaction score and number of reviews on each of those 127 00:08:50.870 --> 00:08:54.899 platforms. But that wasn't enough. For us and then we what do you 128 00:08:54.940 --> 00:08:58.820 mean when you say it wasn't enough, like there wasn't enough attention your demand 129 00:08:58.899 --> 00:09:03.700 for conversation intelligence? I'll explain. It's a great question. So when I 130 00:09:03.779 --> 00:09:07.059 say that wasn't enough, this is what I mean. The category was definitely 131 00:09:07.139 --> 00:09:11.250 getting and is getting a lot of attention in recent years. I mean to 132 00:09:11.370 --> 00:09:16.929 look at Google trends and the number of mentions on social media on conversation diligence. 133 00:09:16.169 --> 00:09:18.889 It's a real thing now. And then we did with might be a 134 00:09:20.850 --> 00:09:24.480 hindsight, a suicide mission, and we decided we want to break away from 135 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:28.039 that everything we've managed to build and define ourselves the last four years and we 136 00:09:28.080 --> 00:09:31.440 want to create a new category. And why didn't we do that? Because, 137 00:09:31.480 --> 00:09:35.639 as our business evolved, we started, like most businesses, selling to 138 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:41.070 small and medium sized businesses, otherwise known as SMB companies, later on shifting 139 00:09:41.190 --> 00:09:45.149 also into mid market, while keeping a really strong sort of pulled on the 140 00:09:45.269 --> 00:09:50.549 SMB market. And earlier this year we started going much more heavily into enterprise 141 00:09:50.669 --> 00:09:56.100 and strategic accounts. I'm talking about companies like Linkedin and ADP and paypal and 142 00:09:56.659 --> 00:09:58.740 many others. I wish I had permission to name their names, but there 143 00:09:58.779 --> 00:10:03.059 are our very impressive client roster. And what we found that when we go 144 00:10:03.179 --> 00:10:07.250 to those enterprise and strategic accounts and we're trying to get to the chief revenue 145 00:10:07.289 --> 00:10:13.649 officer, the Cro who is our ideal buyer at this stage, and and 146 00:10:13.850 --> 00:10:16.809 that has to do with what we said earlier about of a budget line item. 147 00:10:16.210 --> 00:10:20.129 So let me explain. If I'm trying to sell marketing automation to a 148 00:10:20.250 --> 00:10:24.039 CMO, I know they have a budget line item. I can go talk 149 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:28.600 to a marketing ops person because I know she's probably responsible for picking the actual 150 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:31.879 marketing automation system and she has a budget for it. She doesn't have to 151 00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:35.429 go fight for it and if she did, she probably lose that battle and 152 00:10:35.470 --> 00:10:39.470 I'd have to get the CMO involved to go fight for a budget. Now 153 00:10:39.750 --> 00:10:45.470 conversation intelligence is in that situation when there is no budget line item yet. 154 00:10:45.710 --> 00:10:50.019 Okay, now here's the thing. If we go to a CRO which is 155 00:10:50.179 --> 00:10:54.500 our typical buyer who can get a budget, and they hear the words conversation 156 00:10:54.700 --> 00:11:00.019 intelligence, what we found that happens quite often is it sounds to them like 157 00:11:00.059 --> 00:11:03.529 a tactical tool. Conversation Diligence. I would something to do with our conversations. 158 00:11:03.889 --> 00:11:07.370 Go Talk to my sales enablement person or go talk to my sales offs 159 00:11:07.490 --> 00:11:13.409 person, and many times that is where deals go to die, because when 160 00:11:13.450 --> 00:11:16.649 we talk to that sales enablement ourselves as a person, they're like, well, 161 00:11:16.769 --> 00:11:18.960 this is pretty interesting, but I have no power to get budget for 162 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:22.679 this. So we're stuck in that loop where the Cro thinks that this is 163 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:26.840 something too tactical for her to talk about, but when we get to the 164 00:11:26.919 --> 00:11:31.200 tactical person like sales enablement, they don't have any budgeting power to get that 165 00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:35.950 done. And so to break out of that vicious cycle, we have the 166 00:11:35.029 --> 00:11:39.990 thought that is showing initial promise in the last like six weeks since we roll 167 00:11:39.110 --> 00:11:43.429 this out, but ask me again in three or six months or in twelve 168 00:11:43.470 --> 00:11:46.269 months, I'll tell you how we're doing. We have the thought that if 169 00:11:46.309 --> 00:11:50.620 we renamed it to a category that the CRO would care about and would not 170 00:11:50.860 --> 00:11:56.820 as easily bump us down to sales enablement, we could say at power talking 171 00:11:56.860 --> 00:12:01.059 to that Cro who would both get the need for our product and also have 172 00:12:01.220 --> 00:12:03.929 the power to fight for budget. That was one of the sort of defining 173 00:12:05.009 --> 00:12:07.090 moments when we're like, okay, what would the CRO care about? Right? 174 00:12:07.129 --> 00:12:13.610 If Cro wants us to bring in strategic training for sales people like Sandler, 175 00:12:13.049 --> 00:12:16.799 that happens at the CRO level. That's a that's a high ticket item 176 00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:20.559 and and it has sort of strategic importance. He wouldn't bump that down to 177 00:12:20.679 --> 00:12:24.679 sales enablement. To decide who we need to bring in Sandler for half a 178 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:26.960 million dollars this year. That's a crow decision. So we're like, what 179 00:12:28.120 --> 00:12:33.309 could we do to make purchasing product like going a CRO decision? And after 180 00:12:33.350 --> 00:12:35.149 a quite a lengthy process that I won't worry with all its details, we 181 00:12:35.389 --> 00:12:41.070 came to the conclusion that by renaming it as revenue intelligence, and this is 182 00:12:41.230 --> 00:12:46.740 way more than a naming exercise, we redefined the entire pitch around what is 183 00:12:46.860 --> 00:12:52.419 revenue intelligence, what our product vision is and how it helps see ours and 184 00:12:52.860 --> 00:12:58.570 senior sales leaders. We completely redefine that message to cater to the interest of 185 00:12:58.690 --> 00:13:03.889 senior sales leaders in enterprise. And I've got to say that since we've rolled 186 00:13:03.970 --> 00:13:07.490 this out, obviously we had a short Beta period before we did the official 187 00:13:07.529 --> 00:13:11.690 roll out about six weeks ago, it's been really resonating with senior sales. 188 00:13:11.370 --> 00:13:16.320 You know what, when when marketing teams and management teams sit around a board 189 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:20.200 room making up these names, you always got to wander like, won't this 190 00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:22.840 sound weird? Does it even sound like a thing? Does it sound entirely 191 00:13:22.879 --> 00:13:26.120 made up? Will it's sick? And you know, all these category names 192 00:13:26.120 --> 00:13:31.110 initially sound made up because they didn't exist five minutes ago. But it's actually 193 00:13:31.149 --> 00:13:33.509 working. It's actually working so far. Again, this is very early stages, 194 00:13:33.549 --> 00:13:37.909 so tons of disclaimers and asterisks on that, but it is sticking like 195 00:13:39.029 --> 00:13:41.620 with no one's rateds raced the brow asking revenue what, or what does that 196 00:13:41.700 --> 00:13:46.139 even mean? As soon as we get through the thirty two explanation, like 197 00:13:46.379 --> 00:13:52.100 really makes sense to people and we're seeing that Cros are having these conversations with 198 00:13:52.259 --> 00:13:54.419 us, the piece of sales are having these conversations with us and they get 199 00:13:54.460 --> 00:13:58.009 it. So that that is sort of the background why we made the change. 200 00:13:58.090 --> 00:14:00.009 All Right, so let me play it back to you to make sure 201 00:14:00.009 --> 00:14:03.850 I got it correctly. So with conversation intelligence, there was some demand. 202 00:14:03.889 --> 00:14:09.450 It was it's an existing category and you found that when you're selling to been 203 00:14:09.490 --> 00:14:13.360 marketed in, especially enterprise accounts. You really trying to sell to the Crero 204 00:14:13.399 --> 00:14:18.919 the term conversation station intelligence? It would get pushed down to a sales opsor 205 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:22.240 of sales enabledment person. But then, even though this is an existing category, 206 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:26.629 it's not at the budget in line item stage yet, and so to 207 00:14:26.750 --> 00:14:30.950 make a to make a sale, that had to be the kind of come 208 00:14:30.990 --> 00:14:33.389 out of new budgets. So it would go back to the crow but, 209 00:14:33.710 --> 00:14:35.350 like you said, it would kind of bump back down to the sales enabledment 210 00:14:35.429 --> 00:14:43.059 person because conversation intelligence implies something more tactical, less strategic. Exactly in the 211 00:14:43.179 --> 00:14:46.820 Cero would really pay attention for exactly. And so we again, I'm oversimplifying 212 00:14:48.460 --> 00:14:50.379 to fit the scope of our discussion today, but but it's way beyond the 213 00:14:50.500 --> 00:14:54.529 category name. Sure we thought about the strategic story. Why would the CRO 214 00:14:54.730 --> 00:15:00.210 care and and why don't they care enough about conversation intelligence? And we found 215 00:15:00.210 --> 00:15:05.970 that conversation intelligence really has a pretty narrow scope of improving people's skills at the 216 00:15:05.570 --> 00:15:09.639 sort of sales call level. So this is something that a frontline sales manager 217 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:15.559 who has six people, six account executives, reporting to her, she would 218 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:18.919 care about because this helps her culture. People it's still a super important product, 219 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:24.509 but our offering is so much broader than that and our vision and future 220 00:15:24.549 --> 00:15:28.549 product road map is is way more than that pillar of value that we call 221 00:15:28.669 --> 00:15:33.950 today people success, because it's about improving people skills. We'd added to equally 222 00:15:33.950 --> 00:15:39.539 important pillars. One of them is deal success, where we help entire sales 223 00:15:39.580 --> 00:15:43.860 teams win more deals by showing them unprecedented visibility into their deals pineline and helping 224 00:15:45.179 --> 00:15:48.700 their manager really understand what should be in the pipeline, what's real and what's 225 00:15:48.740 --> 00:15:52.529 not. And we added a third pillar called strategy success. That helps the 226 00:15:52.649 --> 00:15:56.490 very senior sales leaders, like the VP of sales or the CRO roll out 227 00:15:56.570 --> 00:16:00.169 strategic sales motions. Like, let's say you've invested a million dollars in Sandler. 228 00:16:00.370 --> 00:16:02.490 How do you know that it's working well? Now you can use Gong 229 00:16:02.850 --> 00:16:06.799 certain measure your organization before and after and show Roy and and and said the 230 00:16:06.919 --> 00:16:11.360 the continuous plan with with those trainers. You can see which of your reps 231 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:15.080 are using the new product messaging you're rolling out or who is offering those three 232 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:18.110 year deals and que for like they asked for. So all of these things 233 00:16:18.149 --> 00:16:22.870 are much broader vision than simply sales coaching, which is what all of the 234 00:16:22.990 --> 00:16:27.509 other sort of legacy conversation intelligence vendors are working on. If you go to 235 00:16:27.629 --> 00:16:30.950 their websites, all they're talking about is sales coaching. That's all they're doing. 236 00:16:32.509 --> 00:16:36.220 And our vision as already become so much broader and a lot of that 237 00:16:36.299 --> 00:16:38.220 is already embedded in the product that we said. Okay, we have a 238 00:16:38.340 --> 00:16:42.539 story that we think is much broader that if we keep calling a conversation intelligence, 239 00:16:42.659 --> 00:16:47.100 people won't get it because it sounds them like this little niche thing that 240 00:16:47.250 --> 00:16:52.049 just helps sales reps with her with their call coaching shirts. We change the 241 00:16:52.090 --> 00:16:55.169 name to go with that much broader store. Sure. So there's two things 242 00:16:55.169 --> 00:17:00.009 there that I think. A really interesting one is that you started with understanding 243 00:17:00.210 --> 00:17:03.320 your audience. First. That was the impetus for this change. It wasn't 244 00:17:03.320 --> 00:17:07.160 because somebody got tired of conversation intelligence or because someone new came in and they 245 00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:10.720 wanted to kind of shake things up. You really started with a need. 246 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:14.440 It was based on looking at the people you're trying to work with. And 247 00:17:14.519 --> 00:17:18.549 then secondly, you you talked about how revenue intelligence isn't just a clever way 248 00:17:18.589 --> 00:17:22.509 of talking about the same thing, or better way of talking about the same 249 00:17:22.509 --> 00:17:26.670 thing. It really reflects a product strategy as well. We talked about those 250 00:17:26.670 --> 00:17:32.299 three pillars you've added that kind of extend beyond conversation intelligence and that's really what 251 00:17:32.460 --> 00:17:36.140 category design is all about. It's not just the marketing piece, and although 252 00:17:36.180 --> 00:17:38.539 that's a an important part of it, but has to reflect the product crowd 253 00:17:38.619 --> 00:17:42.180 map and division of the company absolutely, and it goes as far as our 254 00:17:42.700 --> 00:17:49.369 internal organizational structure has changed as a result of this repositioning. I can explain. 255 00:17:49.730 --> 00:17:53.849 So when we decided that this new story consists of three pillars of people 256 00:17:53.890 --> 00:18:00.680 success, deal success and strategy success, we've mirrored that structure in our product 257 00:18:00.920 --> 00:18:04.200 management and in our product marketing team. So we have a product market whose 258 00:18:04.200 --> 00:18:10.880 responsibility is deal success. We have a product manager whose responsibility is people success. 259 00:18:11.240 --> 00:18:14.910 We've taken that to the deepest level that we can. So our entire 260 00:18:15.029 --> 00:18:19.470 organization is building and selling and supporting a product to go and align with that 261 00:18:19.670 --> 00:18:23.630 strategic message and story that we're telling. So he said earlier that it's not 262 00:18:23.750 --> 00:18:27.259 just a marketing exercise and that's entirely true. This has to start from the 263 00:18:27.819 --> 00:18:32.660 highest form of leadership, the CEO, the entire C suite. If you 264 00:18:32.700 --> 00:18:36.339 go ask our people officer, our finance officer, they will tell the same 265 00:18:36.380 --> 00:18:40.940 story that I'm telling because it's so deeply embedded in the company and how we've 266 00:18:41.259 --> 00:18:44.529 structured the company and how we're building the product and how we're selling it and 267 00:18:44.609 --> 00:18:48.210 how we're supporting it. Sure so we're. Did that lightbulb go off then 268 00:18:48.569 --> 00:18:52.130 that conversation? Intelligence wasn't the thing, was it was that you was it 269 00:18:52.450 --> 00:18:55.720 so might outside of marketing. To Recall, I think it initially came up 270 00:18:55.759 --> 00:19:00.519 in discussions where when we, you know, our sales and marketing teams are 271 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:03.519 deeply aligned, its topic I get asked about a lot and and that allows 272 00:19:03.559 --> 00:19:10.150 us to move quickly because I see marketing as part of the Greater Revenue Organization 273 00:19:10.630 --> 00:19:15.670 and its purposes to supply sales with the top line pipeline that they need to 274 00:19:15.109 --> 00:19:19.990 hit the company target. And you can't do that unless you're very, very 275 00:19:21.029 --> 00:19:23.299 deeply aligned and every week you're understanding what they're struggling with, what's working, 276 00:19:23.380 --> 00:19:27.059 what's not working, and then we iterate and we change things. So when 277 00:19:27.099 --> 00:19:33.099 we started hearing that, as we're going up market, to enterprise. Our 278 00:19:33.259 --> 00:19:37.660 strs and our as were being bumped down to sales, enablement and sales, 279 00:19:37.700 --> 00:19:41.490 all of them. We learned this from the Revenue Organization. I think then 280 00:19:41.529 --> 00:19:44.410 the light bar, the light bulb, started going out as an on and 281 00:19:44.490 --> 00:19:47.250 saying, okay, maybe it's something to do with our messaging, because we 282 00:19:47.450 --> 00:19:51.809 really believe there our product brings value to the senior leadership. We really believe 283 00:19:51.930 --> 00:19:55.480 that if they only fought that fight to get the budget, they would see 284 00:19:55.519 --> 00:19:57.279 so much value. And we have customers who are saying that as well. 285 00:19:57.359 --> 00:20:00.319 It's not just our own thinking. So it must be something to do with 286 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:03.799 our messaging. And then we started playing round with messaging and then we took 287 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:07.230 a few folks and we gave them the the sort of data version of our 288 00:20:07.230 --> 00:20:11.950 messaging and we of course, use going to record all these calls and analyze 289 00:20:11.990 --> 00:20:14.990 and see what's working what's not working. And after we did like twenty of 290 00:20:15.029 --> 00:20:18.910 those with a new narrative, like we think we're onto something, and then 291 00:20:18.950 --> 00:20:21.740 we made it official and then we rolled it out an entire team. And 292 00:20:21.859 --> 00:20:26.339 so we iterate and test our messaging just like marketers do this on websites and 293 00:20:26.420 --> 00:20:29.180 emails. We use. Going to do this for our sales team as well. 294 00:20:29.539 --> 00:20:33.299 Sure what kind of people or books to resources have kind of influenced how 295 00:20:33.339 --> 00:20:38.130 you approached messaging? Good question. So for messaging that we mentioned, to 296 00:20:40.289 --> 00:20:45.210 know three, three books that I've read or reread recently that have really influenced 297 00:20:45.250 --> 00:20:49.000 how we're doing things. So the two very fundamental ones that are classics. 298 00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:55.200 One of them is Jeffrey Moore's crossing the Chasm, which is, you know, 299 00:20:55.279 --> 00:20:59.599 the the Bible of, I think, category creation and just breaking into 300 00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:03.920 a market. We were fortunate to have Jeffrey come to our conference last month, 301 00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:07.589 celebrate here in San Francisco and be one of our speakers and it was 302 00:21:07.630 --> 00:21:11.390 a great success as as we expected. So I've recently re read his book 303 00:21:11.509 --> 00:21:15.750 just to sort of update myself on some of the strategies that we want to 304 00:21:15.990 --> 00:21:22.059 make sure that we're implementing as his theory suggests. So anyone starting to think 305 00:21:22.099 --> 00:21:26.380 about just even entering a new market or creating your own category, you want 306 00:21:26.380 --> 00:21:29.339 to read that book. So that's Jeffrey Moore's crossing the chasm. Once you 307 00:21:29.380 --> 00:21:33.329 get into the marketing tactics of how to actually do that, I always go 308 00:21:33.450 --> 00:21:38.410 back to Robert C Aldini's influence. Influence talks about the six pillars of human 309 00:21:38.490 --> 00:21:45.490 persuasion and those are just the Bible of any marketer. If you ask me 310 00:21:45.650 --> 00:21:49.079 like I won't talk or hire a marketer around and Watten that book everything we 311 00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:52.839 do. I mean it was written in the s and it didn't take off 312 00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:56.079 initially and a few years later a lot of these ideas caught on and then 313 00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:59.559 it caught on like wildfire. He's been reprinted God knows how many times. 314 00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:03.630 And you know what, shielding he wrote in the S, way before the 315 00:22:03.750 --> 00:22:07.269 Internet and social media. We use those exact same principles today to make a 316 00:22:07.509 --> 00:22:11.670 post go viral on linkedin or to makeup video become a huge success on Youtube. 317 00:22:11.910 --> 00:22:17.940 And he wrote these global principles of human persuasion years before we even had 318 00:22:18.019 --> 00:22:22.380 this new media at our fingertips, and it's mensely useful. And finally, 319 00:22:22.420 --> 00:22:25.980 the third book I recommend is is a book called New Power. I think 320 00:22:26.019 --> 00:22:30.130 that is the name of it. New Power, power. It's about creating 321 00:22:30.250 --> 00:22:36.410 movements. So new power is a book that talks about movements in the last 322 00:22:36.410 --> 00:22:40.250 few years, not necessarily having to do with product at all. So they 323 00:22:40.329 --> 00:22:44.130 talked about movements like the Hashtag me to movement and they talk about the rise 324 00:22:44.210 --> 00:22:48.960 of Isis in Syria and how they're recruiting college students from Scotland and how they're 325 00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:56.640 messaging the recruitment messaging how they're pushing people to Action. And by reading about 326 00:22:56.680 --> 00:23:02.390 these different movements from different walks of life, they start making generalizations about what 327 00:23:02.589 --> 00:23:07.710 creates a message that would trigger people to take action. And that is so 328 00:23:07.869 --> 00:23:11.950 useful when you're taking that and thinking, how can I apply that to a 329 00:23:11.069 --> 00:23:15.579 movement in my business or in my category? How can I get people talking 330 00:23:15.619 --> 00:23:18.859 about Revenue Intelligence? And I'm not ashamed to say that we're picking up tips 331 00:23:18.900 --> 00:23:22.460 from the me to movement and from the Isis Movement, only in not in 332 00:23:22.500 --> 00:23:26.539 an evil way, of course, about what triggers people to act and what 333 00:23:26.619 --> 00:23:29.410 makes the message of people who want to act on and repeat. And so 334 00:23:29.970 --> 00:23:34.609 I think sometimes looking outside of your immediate neighborhood and other companies gives you the 335 00:23:34.690 --> 00:23:41.130 best ideas, because sometimes your competitors are just not that inspiring or you're the 336 00:23:41.170 --> 00:23:44.319 biggest and the leader that everyone's looking at, so you don't really have who 337 00:23:44.359 --> 00:23:47.480 to learn from your immediate space. Of just looking at other spaces. It 338 00:23:47.559 --> 00:23:51.319 could be other product spaces, they could be entirely other spaces, like social 339 00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:56.670 movements. Looking at that and see what's appealing there. Why are people following? 340 00:23:56.710 --> 00:24:00.109 Yeah, yeah, it's so. It's interesting how much inspiration can come 341 00:24:00.190 --> 00:24:04.710 out of resources that are outside of marketing or outside of business and, like 342 00:24:04.829 --> 00:24:07.390 you said, if you can easily get caught up in an echo chamber and 343 00:24:08.190 --> 00:24:11.500 just doing variations and what other people have done, but not really doing something 344 00:24:11.700 --> 00:24:17.180 original exactly. You know what fascinates medios? I hear you talk, you 345 00:24:17.859 --> 00:24:19.700 use the word we over and over again. We do this, we do 346 00:24:19.779 --> 00:24:22.220 that, which is I don't think I even heard you say like I did 347 00:24:22.299 --> 00:24:26.529 this, you know, even once. And the reason I bring that up 348 00:24:26.609 --> 00:24:32.049 is because this change that you you went through from shifting from conversation intelligence to 349 00:24:32.089 --> 00:24:34.289 reveny intelligence. Based on what you've told me so far, this is affected 350 00:24:34.369 --> 00:24:40.039 multiple areas of your of your company, and I'm really fascinated here from you 351 00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:45.319 what process and what advice you have for going through this cultural change, because 352 00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:48.400 this is a big deal right. It's not like a change of the headline 353 00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:51.599 on your website. It's a mental change. So how do you go about 354 00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:55.789 affecting such a large change like that and get getting everyone so excited about it? 355 00:24:56.190 --> 00:24:59.430 It's a great question and I really think you nailed it as far as 356 00:24:59.509 --> 00:25:03.269 that being a key to succeeding in a movement like this, and I'm not 357 00:25:03.309 --> 00:25:07.859 even talking about it external success, let the internal messaging, communications and success. 358 00:25:07.259 --> 00:25:11.579 You cannot move a mountain like this without the entire force of a company 359 00:25:11.619 --> 00:25:15.859 being behind it and pushing you. You can be a brilliant CMO or VP 360 00:25:15.980 --> 00:25:19.460 marketing, you cannot push this mountain yourself, and the way to do that 361 00:25:19.660 --> 00:25:25.410 is to get very early buy in from the entire executive team. In my 362 00:25:25.569 --> 00:25:27.970 case, I'm very fortunate to be working for a CEO who is actually a 363 00:25:29.250 --> 00:25:33.450 CMO for most of his career before becoming a CEO. So He's a marketer 364 00:25:33.569 --> 00:25:37.839 at heart and he gets he gets it and you know, we started this 365 00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:42.680 whole category creation discussion just him and me, and I went and built a 366 00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:48.960 draft plan of what we want to do. I got his input on it 367 00:25:48.039 --> 00:25:52.789 and then I presented that to the broader sea suite and I shared with them 368 00:25:53.470 --> 00:25:59.029 what I heard from them. That triggered the the need for possibly creating a 369 00:25:59.029 --> 00:26:02.269 new category and of course I got a lot of head nods because this feedback 370 00:26:02.309 --> 00:26:06.500 originally came from sales and str and customer success when some of their customers didn't 371 00:26:06.500 --> 00:26:08.299 get what we're doing at the strategic level. So they had to agree with 372 00:26:08.380 --> 00:26:11.980 that part which I started with because it came from them. And then I 373 00:26:11.099 --> 00:26:15.819 moved on to what my recommended action plan is at very high level of what 374 00:26:15.099 --> 00:26:18.259 I didn't even have a name for the category that point. I was just 375 00:26:18.569 --> 00:26:22.289 talking about the need for category creation and what's US will look like and I 376 00:26:22.369 --> 00:26:27.410 based that on some of the theory and examples of other categories that we looked 377 00:26:27.410 --> 00:26:33.200 at in other industries, and they were very excited. After that, I 378 00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:37.240 hired a person on my team, China Bedonni. She's a great addition to 379 00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:41.920 our teams. Joins us a few months ago and her unofficial title is category 380 00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:47.230 creation. That's all she's working on. And then she embarked on this journey 381 00:26:47.349 --> 00:26:52.750 and she went through the process and she educated herself from other category crazer creators 382 00:26:52.789 --> 00:26:56.869 and other industries and she walked our management team through this process of defining the 383 00:26:56.990 --> 00:27:03.220 category and finally naming the category. And then we built our first customer or 384 00:27:03.339 --> 00:27:08.579 industry conference around that and we built a she built our CEOS keynote around that 385 00:27:08.740 --> 00:27:11.980 new messaging and category creation. Then we launched that and was a huge success 386 00:27:12.460 --> 00:27:17.930 and we had the CEO get up in front of the entire company at our 387 00:27:18.009 --> 00:27:22.170 last all hands before he sort of unveiled this to the world and he explained 388 00:27:22.210 --> 00:27:25.809 to them the narrative that we wrote together on why we need this change, 389 00:27:26.089 --> 00:27:27.130 what it's going to look like, how it's going to work, and he 390 00:27:27.250 --> 00:27:33.440 rallied everyone around that. And right after that our product marketing teams, together 391 00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:37.440 with she now rolled out new sales decks. They updated that every single page 392 00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:41.519 of the website. So there's no more conversation intelligence. It's all that revenue 393 00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:45.630 intelligence and that entire story. So this is a really wide initiative that you 394 00:27:45.750 --> 00:27:48.509 have to work constantly on. The in term of communications. Is Not one 395 00:27:48.549 --> 00:27:52.630 of those things the marketing can spring on the company one morning, say Tella, 396 00:27:52.109 --> 00:27:56.190 because nobody will buy into it. You have to work. I think 397 00:27:56.509 --> 00:27:59.140 most of the world we spend, or at least half of it, of 398 00:27:59.259 --> 00:28:03.259 all the effort we put into category creation was in the internal sinking and buying 399 00:28:03.460 --> 00:28:06.740 to make sure that everyone from the CEO to the C suite to the entire 400 00:28:06.900 --> 00:28:11.180 company is completely behind us. And now if you go into any random Gong 401 00:28:11.259 --> 00:28:15.730 employees linkedin page, you'll probably find that they've put revenue intelligence in their title. 402 00:28:15.930 --> 00:28:19.529 They've changed their banner image on their linkedin profile to something around revenue intelligence, 403 00:28:19.930 --> 00:28:22.849 and not because we forced them to, because I got them sided about. 404 00:28:23.250 --> 00:28:27.319 Sure, sure, that's it's so interesting that you hired someone with this 405 00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:33.480 unofficial role of moving category creation forward. Where did you get that idea? 406 00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:38.599 So she know, is interviewing for a different role on my team and we 407 00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:45.109 all found her extremely impressive. But she had a few white spaces in the 408 00:28:45.190 --> 00:28:49.470 experience that we were looking for that specific role. And this was right at 409 00:28:49.470 --> 00:28:53.309 the time that we were starting to discuss category creation and when I presented my 410 00:28:53.390 --> 00:28:56.819 high level plan. It seemed like a good idea but also seemed like a 411 00:28:56.900 --> 00:29:00.180 ton of work. And we're thinking pate, who is going to leave this? 412 00:29:00.259 --> 00:29:03.900 If we don't have a clear owner for this initiative, for pulling us 413 00:29:03.940 --> 00:29:07.779 through this mud and getting to the other side, it's just not going to 414 00:29:08.180 --> 00:29:12.609 not get get off the ground because we were all very, very busy even 415 00:29:12.730 --> 00:29:17.890 before we started this initiative and then, and then, as I was talking 416 00:29:18.130 --> 00:29:21.049 with my CEO, and this was right at the time that we rage of 417 00:29:21.049 --> 00:29:23.599 the machine and some other candidates for the other role, I meet my CEO 418 00:29:23.720 --> 00:29:27.079 said, why don't we hire Sheena for this? Let's have her lead this 419 00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:30.640 category building and I'm wow, that could be a great idea. It took 420 00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:36.119 some selling on my part because I'd essentially invented a role which is almost as 421 00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:38.710 hard as in ending a category and and she had come to interview for another 422 00:29:38.750 --> 00:29:42.150 role. She was a VP marketing at that time and another company, and 423 00:29:42.269 --> 00:29:45.069 so if she wanted to make sure she's got a senior role, and and 424 00:29:45.150 --> 00:29:49.910 I love what she said when we interviewed her and and I essentially came up 425 00:29:49.910 --> 00:29:52.019 to her like the third interview I said Look, she you know we all 426 00:29:52.099 --> 00:29:55.660 love you, but we think we have a better role for you than the 427 00:29:55.700 --> 00:30:00.539 one. He actually came to Intervie and she said her first criteria and deciding 428 00:30:00.579 --> 00:30:03.980 whether to take that role or not was she said, I want to do 429 00:30:03.099 --> 00:30:07.289 something that I know is important to the CEO of the company. I will 430 00:30:07.289 --> 00:30:11.690 not work on something that is not important to the CEO. And I thought 431 00:30:11.730 --> 00:30:15.890 that was a great sign that she gets what it takes to succeed and if 432 00:30:15.089 --> 00:30:18.730 the CEO is not completely bought into what she's working on, then the CEO 433 00:30:18.809 --> 00:30:25.880 won't care and she'll have a part time promoting her ideas and initiatives and succeeding 434 00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:29.039 in what we brought her to do. So I got her to meet with 435 00:30:29.079 --> 00:30:33.279 the CEO again and she was unsured that he indeed is very, very caring 436 00:30:33.319 --> 00:30:36.549 about what she's going to be working on. She did some further due diligence 437 00:30:36.630 --> 00:30:40.109 and then she very fortunately, she took the role and she's been spear hitting 438 00:30:40.150 --> 00:30:41.950 that for the last few months. She's now, you know, as part 439 00:30:41.990 --> 00:30:45.670 of that role, leading all of our press relations, for leading all of 440 00:30:45.710 --> 00:30:52.460 our analysts briefings with industry analysts like Gardner and forester and others. So that's 441 00:30:52.660 --> 00:30:56.579 quickly become a real, very real roles. Or official titles is senior director 442 00:30:56.619 --> 00:30:59.420 of marketing, because she need to put something on Linkedin the people would get 443 00:31:00.180 --> 00:31:03.059 but her really number one focus is category creation. All right, sounds like 444 00:31:03.099 --> 00:31:07.089 someone we need to have on the show. Son. Oh Yeah, she's 445 00:31:07.089 --> 00:31:08.490 a great figure. You'd be lucky to have her. Yeah, great, 446 00:31:08.609 --> 00:31:12.369 he has our own podcast called reveal, the revenue intelligence podcast. You should 447 00:31:12.410 --> 00:31:17.329 right into that perfect a few weeks ago. All right, great. So, 448 00:31:17.569 --> 00:31:21.279 speaking of roles, do you recently were promoted from VP marketing to CMO, 449 00:31:21.960 --> 00:31:26.240 and I'm not sure how that lined up with the shift from conversation to 450 00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:30.680 Revenue Intelligence, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts on how the VP marketing 451 00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:36.430 role kind of plays into category creation versus a CMO role. Great questions. 452 00:31:36.509 --> 00:31:40.109 So yes, as I said, I've already been a VP marketing at five 453 00:31:40.150 --> 00:31:44.670 different companies, the most recent one here gone. There isn't always a huge 454 00:31:44.750 --> 00:31:48.460 difference between a HEP marketing and a CMO roll. I think some companies sort 455 00:31:48.500 --> 00:31:52.259 of overuse CMO when they like a two person company and they have a Cmo 456 00:31:52.099 --> 00:31:56.140 who's never really done that before, because they think it look good for investors 457 00:31:56.180 --> 00:32:00.220 or something. But at Gong, especially with my CEO, I meet he's 458 00:32:00.299 --> 00:32:04.529 very careful about titles and this is the third time I've work with him, 459 00:32:04.609 --> 00:32:07.609 the second time I've reported to him and and this is the first time he's 460 00:32:08.529 --> 00:32:14.009 promoted me to to CMO. So he doesn't take that lightly. I think 461 00:32:14.009 --> 00:32:17.519 there were a few things that triggered that promotion specifically at Gong, which which 462 00:32:19.039 --> 00:32:22.640 could also make sense for other companies. One of them is that the role 463 00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:25.720 had indeed broadened and grown. So in the first couple of years I was 464 00:32:25.880 --> 00:32:30.190 mainly focused on demand generation, which is what the company needed. We need 465 00:32:30.269 --> 00:32:32.869 more leads, we need qualified opportunities so we have customers to sell to. 466 00:32:34.630 --> 00:32:39.029 Once my team had created that machine, it was time to focus on on 467 00:32:39.150 --> 00:32:42.789 many other things. So the big one that they were focusing on now is 468 00:32:42.829 --> 00:32:47.740 category creation. My team also handles employer branding and product marketing and our brand 469 00:32:47.819 --> 00:32:52.420 building and so many other things which are a lot more strategic and not just 470 00:32:52.660 --> 00:32:55.900 focus on the day today, demangine, but what are we doing to build 471 00:32:57.259 --> 00:32:59.970 our companies brand for the next two and three years, not just for this 472 00:33:00.049 --> 00:33:04.650 quarter, and so I think that's one moment where you sort of can sit 473 00:33:04.730 --> 00:33:07.769 back and say, okay, the marketing is now and the leader of the 474 00:33:07.849 --> 00:33:10.809 marketing team is now something much more strategic and broad than just creating leads for 475 00:33:10.970 --> 00:33:15.119 meeting this quarters pipeline, and I think that that's a good time to start 476 00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:17.119 thinking of okay, we need a Cmo in that position. is at the 477 00:33:17.200 --> 00:33:21.599 current person needing marketing or do we need to bring someone from the outside who's 478 00:33:21.640 --> 00:33:23.880 done this before? So that that is sort of one consideration. I think 479 00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:29.950 the the other consideration is looking at the marketing team's hiring plans. I'm very 480 00:33:30.069 --> 00:33:35.990 fortunate to have several xdps on my team and many senior directors, and we 481 00:33:36.150 --> 00:33:39.150 need that because we're very small team. Were only ten people in the marketing 482 00:33:39.150 --> 00:33:43.859 team Gong and and we were half of that just three months ago. So 483 00:33:44.019 --> 00:33:47.380 we're growing quickly, but the team still small and I need very experienced people 484 00:33:47.460 --> 00:33:53.059 who usually already had these senior titles in other places. And getting these people 485 00:33:53.099 --> 00:33:57.730 to join my team is much easier when they see a promotion path for them 486 00:33:57.970 --> 00:34:02.009 and there's some space or gap between their title and mine. And I hired 487 00:34:02.009 --> 00:34:06.089 all these people when I was a VP. So you can imagine if you're 488 00:34:06.089 --> 00:34:07.570 already VP and I'm trying to con lene to come work for me, but 489 00:34:07.650 --> 00:34:12.000 I'm a VP right and you have to take a step down to director, 490 00:34:12.519 --> 00:34:15.440 you're wondering when will you ever get that chance to be promoted to VP again? 491 00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:19.760 Now that we've opened that gap and I'm a CMO, you see that 492 00:34:19.880 --> 00:34:23.159 white space and you know that there is room for additional VP's in the company 493 00:34:23.309 --> 00:34:28.550 in the years to come. So that that was another pretty big consideration for 494 00:34:28.909 --> 00:34:30.829 my promotion. Just I asked my boss. I said, look, at 495 00:34:30.869 --> 00:34:35.829 some point I'll need this promotion to make it easier for me to hire VP's 496 00:34:35.909 --> 00:34:38.739 from other companies because they won't join me as a VP. But reckily a 497 00:34:38.780 --> 00:34:42.300 lot of them did. But I won't be able to drag this on forever. 498 00:34:42.340 --> 00:34:45.900 They want to see a promotion path and there's only one VP of marketing. 499 00:34:45.980 --> 00:34:47.860 They know I need to get run over by a bus for them to 500 00:34:47.900 --> 00:34:52.059 get that position. That's not a great starting point for them. So they 501 00:34:52.139 --> 00:34:54.769 want that gap to see that. And then, and finally, the maybe 502 00:34:54.849 --> 00:35:00.250 third consideration was we waited with an announcement on my promotion until we had hired 503 00:35:00.289 --> 00:35:07.400 a chief people officer and the chief financial officer and we announced all three additions 504 00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:10.840 to the C suite on the same day, sort of to get the maximum 505 00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:15.920 bang for our box. And that's sort of appointment round in the C suite 506 00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:22.269 signals to the market that this company is really gearing up for the next fixed 507 00:35:22.309 --> 00:35:25.309 stage of growth. Are Are Chief Financial Officer Tim Ritter's just stepped down from 508 00:35:25.309 --> 00:35:30.469 a very large public company to join going our chief people officer, Sandy coach, 509 00:35:30.469 --> 00:35:34.630 are left us from a very successful company to come join us and and 510 00:35:35.269 --> 00:35:37.940 we time that together with my promotion to signal to the market that we mean 511 00:35:38.019 --> 00:35:43.340 business and this company is going to the next stage of growth. Yeah, 512 00:35:43.500 --> 00:35:46.619 yeah, so, speaking of Bang for your Buck, I noticed recently you've 513 00:35:46.619 --> 00:35:52.050 done a lot of advertising around revenue intelligence and especially in some, you know, 514 00:35:52.130 --> 00:35:57.969 more traditional ways like billboards and and things like that. I'm curious how 515 00:35:58.010 --> 00:36:02.250 do you think through allocation of like high level kind of brand awareness campaigns in 516 00:36:02.369 --> 00:36:07.079 your budget when you're going through category creation? Do you like? What's the 517 00:36:07.119 --> 00:36:13.280 Calculus for that? Look like great question. So here's here's my high level 518 00:36:13.360 --> 00:36:15.840 view and then we can get as detail as one the boring our list. 519 00:36:16.599 --> 00:36:22.670 At least eighty percent of my budget should be attributed to results, measurable results. 520 00:36:22.949 --> 00:36:28.269 So a big part of the budget goes to demand generation, and within 521 00:36:28.349 --> 00:36:31.860 that I include our content creation, which is very tightly tied to the man 522 00:36:31.980 --> 00:36:36.099 generation. We don't just create content for the sake of creating it and hope 523 00:36:36.099 --> 00:36:40.820 for the best. We tied together very deeply with our dimension campaigns. That 524 00:36:40.980 --> 00:36:44.900 leaves me with fifteen or twenty percent of the budget that we get to do 525 00:36:45.019 --> 00:36:49.369 some fun stuff that I think is important that we know in advance will not 526 00:36:49.489 --> 00:36:52.650 be completely measurable, and that includes stuff like billboards which, no matter what 527 00:36:52.809 --> 00:36:58.050 people say, is never going to be measurable place with today's technology, and 528 00:36:58.170 --> 00:37:00.929 we're okay with that. And, as I already mentioned, I'm fortunate to 529 00:37:00.969 --> 00:37:04.880 work for CEO who was a CMO and he gets that and he he wants 530 00:37:05.079 --> 00:37:10.840 our candidates and employees and business partners and investors to look at going billboards as 531 00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:15.239 they're making their daily commune to work and we know that that has value, 532 00:37:15.110 --> 00:37:19.949 even if we can't measure the hard Roy on it. When we do these 533 00:37:20.030 --> 00:37:23.670 billboard campaigns, like right now, we've taken over the Montgomery station here in 534 00:37:23.909 --> 00:37:29.269 San Francisco for the month of Dreen Force and I've done some other billboards and 535 00:37:29.309 --> 00:37:32.500 I've got twenty cars wrapped around with Revenue Intelligence randing, by the way, 536 00:37:34.099 --> 00:37:37.500 all around town. Every meeting I've had in the last few weeks and every 537 00:37:37.539 --> 00:37:42.139 candidate I've interviewed have mentioned either bumping into one of our cars or seeing one 538 00:37:42.179 --> 00:37:45.969 of our billboards. I know that, even at a subconscious level, that 539 00:37:45.369 --> 00:37:50.969 is affecting their decision of whether they will accept our offer, whether they will 540 00:37:51.409 --> 00:37:53.849 want to do business with us, because they see this as the leading brand 541 00:37:53.969 --> 00:37:58.010 and and I've read some great research from Linkedin. They published it recently, 542 00:37:58.130 --> 00:38:04.400 that they they research these brand building campaigns for be to be and even though 543 00:38:04.519 --> 00:38:07.320 the the the exact effect, is hard to measure, they've concluded, and 544 00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:10.960 they've got some numbers to show for it as well, that this actually affects 545 00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:16.030 even your churn rates because existing customers who are exposed to more and more of 546 00:38:16.070 --> 00:38:21.869 these rand building campaigns, that reassures their decision that they make the right decision 547 00:38:21.869 --> 00:38:25.230 to go with the leading player in your field. And they've shown a strong 548 00:38:25.309 --> 00:38:30.380 correlation between the biggest spender on these brand bit building campaigns and who the category 549 00:38:30.460 --> 00:38:35.739 leader is. So it's correlation, it's not causation. You could say that 550 00:38:35.860 --> 00:38:38.139 because they're the brand leader, they have more budget than anyone else, that 551 00:38:38.179 --> 00:38:42.409 they can afford to do this, which which is probably true right, but 552 00:38:42.530 --> 00:38:46.530 I completely see the other side of that correlation. Suggesting causation would says if 553 00:38:46.570 --> 00:38:51.449 you spend more than your share in the market on building more brand, you 554 00:38:51.570 --> 00:38:53.889 get more mind share, you eventually get more customers and and that is a 555 00:38:53.969 --> 00:38:58.679 virtuous cycle. You continue building, and the opposite, of course, is 556 00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:04.280 the vicious cycle. If you are cheap on these brand building campaigns and you're 557 00:39:04.320 --> 00:39:07.159 thinking that, yeah, my demands and activities are enough and you're smaller competitor 558 00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:09.949 now is spending a lot more than new they're going to get the mind share 559 00:39:09.949 --> 00:39:14.909 and they're going to get the market. Sure, I'm a big believer in 560 00:39:15.030 --> 00:39:17.150 that, even if some of that belief is intuitive and a leap of faith. 561 00:39:17.789 --> 00:39:22.389 We're seeing it in our everyday operations and and the little date data that 562 00:39:22.630 --> 00:39:25.500 is out there supports what we're saying. Sure see and certainly no one is, 563 00:39:25.579 --> 00:39:30.019 especially if they're making an investment in a new product category. They don't 564 00:39:30.019 --> 00:39:31.980 want to invest in a company that they're not sure of the future of the 565 00:39:32.260 --> 00:39:37.579 opening or ifill have resources to invest in the product or support or what have 566 00:39:37.699 --> 00:39:40.849 you. And in a way, showing that you have the resources to invest 567 00:39:40.889 --> 00:39:45.090 in these brand campaigns shows that your well resourced, shows that you're trying to 568 00:39:45.170 --> 00:39:49.530 grow the company and that's that can inced a lot of confidence. Like you 569 00:39:49.530 --> 00:39:52.159 said, exactly exactly and and works are across all level. It works for 570 00:39:52.159 --> 00:39:55.599 a tracting investors because they're seeing you all over the place. It works for 571 00:39:55.760 --> 00:40:00.519 tracting candidates because they want to work for an employer that's sable and they're looking 572 00:40:00.519 --> 00:40:02.519 for a little bit of job security and joining a market leader. And the 573 00:40:02.679 --> 00:40:07.869 works for getting partners and customers because they want to go with a popular choice 574 00:40:07.909 --> 00:40:12.150 with the leading company. Yeah, yeah, so we're running close to at 575 00:40:12.190 --> 00:40:15.429 a time. But before we we go, I know you wanted to share 576 00:40:15.469 --> 00:40:20.869 your thoughts on what you consider the greatest category creation example of all time, 577 00:40:21.349 --> 00:40:22.900 and I've I don't know what it is. I've you just told me that 578 00:40:22.940 --> 00:40:27.820 it wasn't gone. So yeah, I hope one day there will be the 579 00:40:27.900 --> 00:40:30.019 case study on that. But yeah, I just thought of this. Took 580 00:40:30.099 --> 00:40:34.900 yesterday when I was asked about some great example. So you know, within 581 00:40:35.059 --> 00:40:37.530 the software industry there are few examples people talk about. I want to look 582 00:40:37.530 --> 00:40:42.530 outside of the software industry to what I really considers as the best category creating 583 00:40:42.570 --> 00:40:47.170 example, and that is in the s there was a diamond cartel called the 584 00:40:47.329 --> 00:40:53.199 beers and they had an eighty percent hold on the rough diamond market and they 585 00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:59.400 had warehouses full of diamonds that they couldn't get rid of because people weren't buying 586 00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:02.679 enough diamonds. So they went to their the agency, which was jwt in 587 00:41:02.760 --> 00:41:06.829 New York, and they said help us get rid of these diamonds, and 588 00:41:07.789 --> 00:41:13.110 Jwt came with what is one of the most brilliant category building campaigns in history, 589 00:41:13.630 --> 00:41:16.710 and that the slogan was a diamond is forever, and they launched that 590 00:41:16.829 --> 00:41:22.260 campaign and over the years it is become synonymous with diamonds. And when I 591 00:41:22.380 --> 00:41:28.699 look at how confident the beers were at that time because they had such a 592 00:41:29.539 --> 00:41:34.730 monopoly over the diamond market, the first year's adds ran without the company name. 593 00:41:34.889 --> 00:41:37.409 It said a diamond is forever and didn't even say the beers on really 594 00:41:37.449 --> 00:41:42.329 have confident that if you just go and buy a diamond there's an eighty percent 595 00:41:42.369 --> 00:41:45.409 chance it's going to beat the beers anyway. So why push the brand name? 596 00:41:45.449 --> 00:41:47.960 Let's just push the category. And now that is a huge inspiration to 597 00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:52.280 me. And over the years two beers, through their bad campaigns, managed 598 00:41:52.360 --> 00:41:59.519 to convince brides and grooms throughout the Western world that you have to spend two 599 00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:02.030 months words of salary on an engagement ring and then you have to buy a 600 00:42:02.190 --> 00:42:07.750 diamond ring for Valentines and for Christmas and for any other sort of life event. 601 00:42:07.190 --> 00:42:10.750 Sure that is entirely made up in the last seventy years. That is 602 00:42:10.829 --> 00:42:16.019 not some age old medieval tradition or religious position and everyone looks at it as 603 00:42:16.139 --> 00:42:21.699 just a fact of life today and and I think that's what makes that move 604 00:42:21.820 --> 00:42:25.099 such a brilliant move for category building. And years later, when the beers 605 00:42:25.139 --> 00:42:30.369 market share came down from eighty to sixty percent, they started highlighting their own 606 00:42:30.409 --> 00:42:32.329 brand name a little bit more. They open retail location so you can actually 607 00:42:32.369 --> 00:42:36.329 choose to buy it, the beer's diamond, because most diamond store, if 608 00:42:36.329 --> 00:42:38.489 you go into Harry Winston, you don't know where that diamond was sourced from. 609 00:42:38.690 --> 00:42:42.050 If you go to a tiffany's, you don't know where that diamond was 610 00:42:42.090 --> 00:42:44.800 sourced from, but if you go into the beer store you know that they 611 00:42:44.840 --> 00:42:49.199 source that diamond. So I'm hoping one day that that our categories success looks 612 00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:53.079 like that and then we've become synonymous with the category and that we've created this 613 00:42:53.599 --> 00:42:59.710 daily or life habit with people that they know that for winning sales teams. 614 00:42:59.750 --> 00:43:02.949 They need revenue intelligence, and then revenue intelligence means gone. Yeah, that 615 00:43:04.110 --> 00:43:07.110 is sort of my inspiration and I hope we get anything close to that. 616 00:43:07.190 --> 00:43:13.340 Earlier we were talking about getting inspiration outside of marketing or be tob and yeah, 617 00:43:13.500 --> 00:43:17.860 that example of the beer certainly fits fits that example. Any any advice 618 00:43:17.980 --> 00:43:22.780 you want to share for someone who's considering category design or already started to go 619 00:43:22.900 --> 00:43:28.690 down that path and looking to be successful? Well, my my arguably annoying 620 00:43:28.730 --> 00:43:32.650 advice would be avoided at all costs. If you can, don't create a 621 00:43:32.769 --> 00:43:37.969 category unless you absolutely have to. It's so much easier riding a wave and 622 00:43:37.050 --> 00:43:43.760 joining a category and being able to differentiate why you're better than other players. 623 00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:45.800 I mean, they're the two ways, the two arguments you can make. 624 00:43:45.880 --> 00:43:49.599 It's always one of them. Either you articulate how you are different than better, 625 00:43:50.119 --> 00:43:52.920 or you come in cheaper. You can say I have eighty percent of 626 00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:54.750 the features of the leading player, but I'm half the price. This is 627 00:43:54.750 --> 00:43:57.989 why you should buy from me. So you always pick one of them. 628 00:43:58.030 --> 00:44:00.030 Either your product is much better, but you need to be able to clearly 629 00:44:00.070 --> 00:44:05.389 show how, especially in today's market with sometimes hundreds of players in each category 630 00:44:05.429 --> 00:44:08.469 or you just say that you're the cheapest and that that is your market value 631 00:44:08.510 --> 00:44:13.820 proposition. It's so much easier going to an existing category, especially if that 632 00:44:14.019 --> 00:44:19.019 categories already at that budget line item stage. Why would you want to, 633 00:44:19.460 --> 00:44:22.019 you know, Go Bang your head against a brick wall and have to create 634 00:44:22.139 --> 00:44:25.489 that from scratch when so few companies have ever succeeded doing that? So I 635 00:44:25.530 --> 00:44:29.730 would start by looking what's the best category I can actually fit in, and 636 00:44:30.010 --> 00:44:35.329 only only if you have gone through the the long exercise of understanding that really 637 00:44:35.369 --> 00:44:40.679 the benefits of creating a new category are much bigger than the costs of doing 638 00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:45.840 so or remaining in an existing category, then go ahead and do that. 639 00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:51.239 And really it has to be something that the entire company and product and market 640 00:44:51.480 --> 00:44:53.670 agree on, that there's a real problem that you have a real solution for 641 00:44:54.309 --> 00:44:59.829 and that it is so far away from anything else out there that it demands 642 00:44:59.869 --> 00:45:02.829 a new category name. And then you need to go through the entire internal 643 00:45:02.829 --> 00:45:07.699 communications process and buying buy in to make sure you roll that out in a 644 00:45:07.019 --> 00:45:10.340 very, very convincing way and that that's just a start. It doesn't guarantee 645 00:45:10.340 --> 00:45:14.659 anything, but without all of that you don't stand a chance. All right. 646 00:45:14.699 --> 00:45:16.980 So that's to these advice. Don't do it, yes, unless you 647 00:45:17.099 --> 00:45:21.449 for it, unless you have to, and then be really thoughtful and intentional 648 00:45:21.449 --> 00:45:23.769 about bringing the whole company on board and you have the patience to see a 649 00:45:23.929 --> 00:45:28.610 through. Absolutely yeah, good stuff. All right. If one of our 650 00:45:28.650 --> 00:45:30.530 listeners wants to get in touch with you, what's the best way for that? 651 00:45:30.809 --> 00:45:34.969 I suggest connect on Linkedin. It's booty letter bore. There's only one 652 00:45:35.010 --> 00:45:37.400 of me on Linkedin, so I should be very, very simplifinding the lettergore 653 00:45:37.519 --> 00:45:40.719 and, of course, check out Gong Dot ioh we have. If you're 654 00:45:40.719 --> 00:45:45.039 in sales, going to love our block. There's plenty of great stuff there, 655 00:45:45.039 --> 00:45:46.800 and if you're into category building our marketing, you can learn a lot 656 00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:52.150 about what we're doing around revenue intelligence. Good deal duty. Thanks for being 657 00:45:52.150 --> 00:45:53.710 with me today. Thanks for having me, John. All right, take 658 00:45:53.750 --> 00:45:59.869 care. Okay. Well, that reps up this episode of the Category Creation 659 00:46:00.030 --> 00:46:02.590 Series. I hope you enjoyed it and I hope that this episode helped you 660 00:46:02.750 --> 00:46:07.500 in some small way to become a better marketer. Now, if you want 661 00:46:07.539 --> 00:46:10.059 to get in touch with me, you can just head to John Dot Marketing 662 00:46:10.579 --> 00:46:14.900 in your browser or, of course, you can find me on Linkedin. 663 00:46:15.260 --> 00:46:21.409 Thanks for listening. I'll see you next time. I hate it when podcasts 664 00:46:21.530 --> 00:46:23.969 incessantly ask their listeners for reviews, but I get why they do it, 665 00:46:24.329 --> 00:46:29.449 because reviews are enormously helpful when you're trying to grow a podcast audience. So 666 00:46:29.650 --> 00:46:31.530 here's what we decided to do. If you leave a review for be tob 667 00:46:31.610 --> 00:46:37.039 growth and apple podcasts and email me a screenshot of the review to James at 668 00:46:37.079 --> 00:46:39.679 Sweet Fish Mediacom, I'll send you a signed copy of my new book, 669 00:46:39.719 --> 00:46:44.360 content based networking, how to instantly connect with anyone you want to know. 670 00:46:44.840 --> 00:46:46.710 We get a review, you get a free book. We both win.