#CategoryCreation 18: The Category Name Matters Less Than You Think w/ Ryan Bonnici

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.719 Wouldn't it be nice to have several thought leaders in your industry know and Love 2 00:00:04.960 --> 00:00:10.189 Your brand? Start a podcast, invite your industries thought leaders to be guests 3 00:00:10.269 --> 00:00:15.390 on your show and start reaping the benefits of having a network full of industry 4 00:00:15.390 --> 00:00:24.300 influencers? Learn more at Sweet Phish Mediacom you're listening to BB growth, a 5 00:00:24.379 --> 00:00:29.179 daily podcast for BB leaders. We've interviewed names you've probably heard before, like 6 00:00:29.300 --> 00:00:33.380 Gary Vannerd truck and Simon Senek, but you've probably never heard from the majority 7 00:00:33.460 --> 00:00:38.130 of our guests. That's because the bulk of our interviews aren't with professional speakers 8 00:00:38.170 --> 00:00:42.250 and authors. Most of our guests are in the trenches leading sales and marketing 9 00:00:42.329 --> 00:00:47.369 teams. They're implementing strategy, they're experimenting with Packtics, they're building the fastest 10 00:00:47.409 --> 00:00:51.159 growing BEDB companies in the world. My name is James Carberry. I'm the 11 00:00:51.200 --> 00:00:54.920 founder of sweet fish media, a podcast agency for BB brands, and I'm 12 00:00:54.960 --> 00:00:58.640 also one of the CO hosts of this show. When we're not interviewing sales 13 00:00:58.679 --> 00:01:02.399 and marketing leaders, you'll hear stories from behind the scenes of our own business. 14 00:01:02.799 --> 00:01:06.030 Will share the ups and downs of our journey as we attempt to take 15 00:01:06.030 --> 00:01:11.030 over the world. Just getting well? Maybe let's get into the show. 16 00:01:15.230 --> 00:01:19.099 Hi there, and welcome to the BDB growth show. I'm John Ruggie and 17 00:01:19.140 --> 00:01:23.939 I'm the founder of a marketing consultancy called flag and frontier. It helps bedbt 18 00:01:25.019 --> 00:01:30.060 at companies with messaging and positioning. I host our category creation series here where 19 00:01:30.099 --> 00:01:36.489 we explore how and why companies design and dominate new market categories. Now, 20 00:01:36.569 --> 00:01:40.650 in today's episode I'm going to talk with Ryan Benici, who's the CEMO OF 21 00:01:40.890 --> 00:01:45.569 G two. It's a community that millions of people participate in every month to 22 00:01:45.609 --> 00:01:49.319 make better decisions at that buying software. Not only has ryan spent time in 23 00:01:49.480 --> 00:01:56.000 his career at Microsoft exact target sales force and hub spot, he was also 24 00:01:56.079 --> 00:02:00.959 selected as one of the world's most influential a CMOS by Forbes. Now we 25 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:06.150 titled This episode why? The category name matters less than you think, because 26 00:02:06.189 --> 00:02:10.110 in this conversation, Ryan and I break down the misperception that designing a category 27 00:02:10.629 --> 00:02:15.180 means that you have to have an official category name on a site like Gtwo. 28 00:02:15.819 --> 00:02:20.300 Ryan's a super sharp guy and he's got some unique perspectives to share on 29 00:02:20.379 --> 00:02:23.939 marketing. So, without further ado, let's hear from Ryan BENICCI AT G 30 00:02:23.180 --> 00:02:30.849 two. So welcome to the category creation series on the BDB growth show. 31 00:02:30.409 --> 00:02:35.969 I'm John Rugi and with me today is Ryan Benicci, who is CMO AT 32 00:02:36.250 --> 00:02:38.969 G two. Ryan, how are you doing today? I'm doing really, 33 00:02:38.009 --> 00:02:40.530 really, really well. Thanks. John. How are you doing? Yeah, 34 00:02:40.530 --> 00:02:44.439 I'm doing pretty good, pretty good. It's getting called out side, 35 00:02:44.479 --> 00:02:46.919 which I like, and you know, I've been wanting to talk to you 36 00:02:47.080 --> 00:02:51.319 for a long time. I think a lot of people know of you, 37 00:02:51.759 --> 00:02:53.560 if they don't know you personally. But what can you tell us, or 38 00:02:53.599 --> 00:02:58.789 what should our listeners know about you beyond the fact that you're CMO AT G 39 00:02:58.949 --> 00:03:01.310 to today? I mean, I can probably tell for my accent that I'm 40 00:03:01.550 --> 00:03:07.430 not from the US. I'm Australia and spent most of my career living and 41 00:03:07.590 --> 00:03:12.150 working in Australia. Love Marketing, and actually love is like an understatement. 42 00:03:12.189 --> 00:03:17.060 I'm obsessed with marketing and I'm obsessed with brands and I'm obsessive growth and and 43 00:03:17.219 --> 00:03:22.300 category creation specifically. So just like I live and breathe this stuff. It's 44 00:03:22.300 --> 00:03:25.699 not just a job for me, like I genuinely really love it, as 45 00:03:27.139 --> 00:03:30.250 is kind of clearly seen if you look through my phone image gallery, you 46 00:03:30.330 --> 00:03:36.729 will just see screenshots of things like ads, like social media post like I'm 47 00:03:36.810 --> 00:03:42.280 literally constantly kind of consuming content and screen shutting it and sending it to my 48 00:03:42.439 --> 00:03:46.120 team or thinking about it myself and what we can do. So, yeah, 49 00:03:46.199 --> 00:03:50.199 that's kind of me in terms of my work context. Outside of work, 50 00:03:50.680 --> 00:03:53.599 you know, I love Kites, I thing, love being the outdoors 51 00:03:53.000 --> 00:03:57.830 and you know I'm in a big kind of advocate for like mental health, 52 00:03:57.909 --> 00:04:00.990 and talking about mental health is something that's, you know, no different to 53 00:04:01.069 --> 00:04:03.949 your physical health. Yeah, that's awesome. It's all and you'll have to 54 00:04:03.990 --> 00:04:08.990 show me your phone sometime because it sounds like it's basically just a glorified swipei 55 00:04:09.030 --> 00:04:12.020 offer. Oh, you're a little bit. It's annoying actually, like it's 56 00:04:12.020 --> 00:04:15.099 really hard for me to find photos that I'm looking for because there are so 57 00:04:15.139 --> 00:04:17.500 many screenshots. They really need to get into a better habit of deleting them 58 00:04:17.740 --> 00:04:21.540 after I take screenshots. But a last like I'm too far deep now to 59 00:04:23.019 --> 00:04:26.930 fix that. Yeah, that's that's is the life of an obsessed marketing yeah, 60 00:04:27.129 --> 00:04:30.930 exactly. All right. Well, you know all the episodes I've done 61 00:04:30.089 --> 00:04:35.529 on this series, so far have been with people who have either designed categories 62 00:04:35.569 --> 00:04:39.879 and we're kind of talking about that success story, or they're on the front 63 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:43.879 end of that process and they're just going down this path of category design. 64 00:04:44.319 --> 00:04:47.040 And our interviews going to be a little bit different today because, unless I'm 65 00:04:47.040 --> 00:04:50.040 wrong, and correct me if this is the case, I don't think GTWO 66 00:04:50.240 --> 00:04:55.670 is going down the path of category design today. And again, tell me 67 00:04:55.709 --> 00:04:58.829 if I'm wrong in that. But you guys have played a huge role in 68 00:04:58.949 --> 00:05:02.949 what people think of as categories themselves. Yeah, that's a good point. 69 00:05:02.990 --> 00:05:08.660 I mean, I think most of my kind of experience in category creation was 70 00:05:08.819 --> 00:05:14.420 probably from my time at exact target in building kind of like that customer life 71 00:05:14.459 --> 00:05:16.819 cycle, like three hundred sixty three view of customer kind of like category space, 72 00:05:16.860 --> 00:05:21.410 and then about marketing during my time a hop spot. And yes, 73 00:05:21.649 --> 00:05:26.529 that's definitely right. Like a G to, I think like what we're creating 74 00:05:26.649 --> 00:05:30.250 is definitely like unique and different for sure. And you know, I think 75 00:05:30.250 --> 00:05:31.930 we were, we definitely the first company that, you know, build this 76 00:05:32.089 --> 00:05:36.279 concept of a be to be reviews. They're like P authenticated, but I'm 77 00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:39.639 not sure if that is, you know, a category in itself, because 78 00:05:39.639 --> 00:05:43.000 essentially what we're building is, you know, the world's largest be to be 79 00:05:43.199 --> 00:05:46.480 marketplace. So we're building sort of what Amazon is the consumers. You know, 80 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:50.430 we're willing businesses. So, you know, I don't think in that 81 00:05:50.550 --> 00:05:55.029 sense, like not to say that what we're doing isn't isn't really awesome interesting, 82 00:05:55.069 --> 00:05:57.709 but I don't think it's category creation. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 83 00:05:57.949 --> 00:06:00.550 I know you guys have some interesting things on your road map that maybe you 84 00:06:01.389 --> 00:06:04.379 are at liberty talk about it and maybe you're not, but it'll certainly be 85 00:06:04.420 --> 00:06:08.939 interesting to see what the what the future holds for you. But yeah, 86 00:06:08.980 --> 00:06:12.259 so I'll give you a little backs for I'm I'm curious to hear your your 87 00:06:12.339 --> 00:06:15.259 thoughts on this. So when I first learned about category creation, my mind 88 00:06:15.300 --> 00:06:19.930 immediately went to the sides like g two and some of your competitors, and 89 00:06:20.050 --> 00:06:26.769 I equated, you know, category design with like this idea of like someone's 90 00:06:27.490 --> 00:06:31.370 like a term that someone's using in their messaging is officially coined on Gtwo or 91 00:06:31.449 --> 00:06:34.639 by Gartner or someone like that. Now I've got an opinion on that, 92 00:06:34.800 --> 00:06:38.720 but before I know, the show is really there to hear your thoughts. 93 00:06:38.759 --> 00:06:42.439 So tell me what, like, what do you think? How do you 94 00:06:42.519 --> 00:06:46.550 think categories play? What role do they play in the BDB buying process today? 95 00:06:47.430 --> 00:06:50.550 That's a good question. I mean, I think they play a few 96 00:06:50.589 --> 00:06:56.230 different roles and, you know, I think the way sort of we the 97 00:06:56.589 --> 00:07:00.310 reason why category is a really important to us at Gt is, you know, 98 00:07:00.389 --> 00:07:03.060 we have, you know, millions of reviews from people around the world 99 00:07:03.180 --> 00:07:08.620 using different pieces of stuff where technology right, really comprehensive, in depth, 100 00:07:08.819 --> 00:07:12.779 you know, like thirty point plus like reviews like they're not like thumbs up 101 00:07:12.819 --> 00:07:15.540 thumbs out, they're very in depth and for us right, I think, 102 00:07:15.579 --> 00:07:18.290 like the value that we are bringing and you know, the value prop for 103 00:07:18.449 --> 00:07:23.290 gtcom is essentially that, you know, you can come to our side and 104 00:07:23.449 --> 00:07:26.689 you can tell us, you know, what software category you're looking for, 105 00:07:26.889 --> 00:07:30.639 a broad category or service category you're you looking for, and then you can 106 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:32.319 tell us, you know, what type of company are you be, TOBBTC, 107 00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:35.600 how many employees you have, what features do you want, and then 108 00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:43.600 we'll basically give you, you know, a personalized recommendation for that category specifically 109 00:07:43.639 --> 00:07:46.589 that you were looking for. And it's not just for that category them based 110 00:07:46.629 --> 00:07:50.870 on companies like you that, if you software in that category, right. 111 00:07:51.029 --> 00:07:56.870 So that's where we're, you know, completely polar opposites to all of our 112 00:07:56.910 --> 00:08:01.259 competitors in that, you know, all of our recommendations and content is personalized 113 00:08:01.300 --> 00:08:05.220 few because there's no such thing as one size fits all, and so I'm 114 00:08:05.300 --> 00:08:09.220 quite like anti that like analyst model where there's like some person sitting at the 115 00:08:09.259 --> 00:08:13.649 top of an ivory tower choosing like who is the best crm or the best 116 00:08:13.689 --> 00:08:16.649 marking automation, because, like, no one is the best. Realistically. 117 00:08:16.170 --> 00:08:20.529 There's a couple categories the like where there are clear leaders that can seemingly scale 118 00:08:20.730 --> 00:08:24.370 to most sizes of business as very well. But that's not to say, 119 00:08:24.449 --> 00:08:28.120 though, that like they're necessarily the best for you, of everyone. And 120 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:31.079 so, any of the reason why that's really important to why I share that 121 00:08:31.319 --> 00:08:35.360 is that, like for us, when we're giving those really personalized recommendations, 122 00:08:35.879 --> 00:08:39.639 you can't really compare apples to apples if you don't have like a clear cut 123 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:46.230 of like who are the the potential sellers vendors products in a certain category. 124 00:08:46.269 --> 00:08:50.350 Right, because, like let's use two different categories as an example, right, 125 00:08:50.429 --> 00:08:52.990 like let's use like an artificial intelligence category and then let's use an email 126 00:08:54.029 --> 00:08:58.419 marketing category, you know, for an email marketing category where, you know, 127 00:08:58.460 --> 00:09:01.500 it's been around for twenty plus years. It's like very firm around, 128 00:09:01.500 --> 00:09:05.779 like what does that category mean? People have bought those tools many times, 129 00:09:07.460 --> 00:09:11.409 so they may be more likely to respond with like more five's out of ten 130 00:09:11.490 --> 00:09:13.450 or, sorry, more tens out of ten or like higher ratings because, 131 00:09:13.529 --> 00:09:18.850 like, the products in that space have evolved in become more kind of tailored 132 00:09:18.889 --> 00:09:22.570 to the needs of the user, in the buyer. Sure, for AI 133 00:09:22.649 --> 00:09:24.559 software, right, that's very new. As an example, there might be, 134 00:09:24.759 --> 00:09:26.679 you know, a few different players out there, but they may be 135 00:09:26.799 --> 00:09:31.399 kind of scattered and they may not be like subsectors of that broader category just 136 00:09:31.559 --> 00:09:35.559 yet, and so you can't really compare, like when your program we're personalizing 137 00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:39.429 our results to give you the best, you know, advice that you're looking 138 00:09:39.470 --> 00:09:43.190 for. If we were grouping sort of, you know, products across categories 139 00:09:43.269 --> 00:09:46.789 in we wouldn't really then be able to give very good recommendation. So that's 140 00:09:48.190 --> 00:09:52.230 really important to us to make sure that the recommendations were giving a really fair 141 00:09:52.309 --> 00:09:56.299 and we're comparing them, you know, adequately to people with similar features in 142 00:09:56.340 --> 00:10:00.539 the same space in category. So I think that's why it's important to us, 143 00:10:00.659 --> 00:10:01.980 you know, in terms of like our date during our products. But 144 00:10:03.019 --> 00:10:05.860 I think it's important to buy as as well. I because, like categories 145 00:10:05.899 --> 00:10:09.210 are essentially just short cuts for them, you know, shortcuts to try and 146 00:10:09.289 --> 00:10:11.929 work out like, you know, whether we called a category or a bucket 147 00:10:13.169 --> 00:10:16.250 or, you know, like a landscape of different tools, like it's basically, 148 00:10:16.289 --> 00:10:20.600 you know, they're these different groupings and that helps them make decisions and 149 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:24.039 work out, you know, what are the things that I need for the 150 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:26.200 different parts of my business and to the different functions. So yeah, I 151 00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:31.200 think like as shortcuts they can be very useful to buyers, especially, you 152 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:35.789 know, more beginner byers that maybe haven't bought lots of tools before, where 153 00:10:35.830 --> 00:10:39.950 it's so for advanced by as, they may not need categories to find the 154 00:10:41.070 --> 00:10:43.110 different products. They may already know a bunch of those products in that space. 155 00:10:43.750 --> 00:10:48.590 Sure. So it sounds like for for someone who's trying to really kind 156 00:10:48.590 --> 00:10:52.620 of find their way through different products out there and they're not really familiar with 157 00:10:52.220 --> 00:10:56.940 whatevery thing does what they should expect one thing to do and not do, 158 00:10:56.620 --> 00:11:01.059 the categories for them are a real, like you said, shorthand for kind 159 00:11:01.059 --> 00:11:05.769 of finding their way to the right product for the right solution faster. Yeah, 160 00:11:05.809 --> 00:11:07.649 exactly, and I always think of it as kind of like a bit 161 00:11:07.690 --> 00:11:11.889 of like a Russian dull Sku idea in the sense of like, you know, 162 00:11:11.970 --> 00:11:15.690 some of might come to our side looking for sale software and then we'll 163 00:11:15.730 --> 00:11:18.639 ask some some questions on our side, they'll engage without, you know, 164 00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:22.039 our Ai Chap Pot to like better help us understand what is it that they're 165 00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:26.919 trying to do, like if are they trying to increase sales rep productivity or 166 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:31.960 they trying to increase kind of like reporting on sales activities? And if it's, 167 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:33.149 you know, reporting them, we might push them down like a bi 168 00:11:33.629 --> 00:11:39.110 path of like bi categories and content, if they're looking for sales enable men 169 00:11:39.149 --> 00:11:41.990 or training, that it might be more about kind of, you know, 170 00:11:41.190 --> 00:11:46.460 different enablement tools to help their sales as become more producative. So I think 171 00:11:46.539 --> 00:11:50.379 categories are useful as a short cut, for sure, but I actually think 172 00:11:50.820 --> 00:11:54.179 the most useful thing really is like starting with what are the problems that you're 173 00:11:54.220 --> 00:11:58.899 trying to solve as a bier, you know, and you know for sells 174 00:11:58.899 --> 00:12:01.409 or productivity, is one of those. If you're a sales manager, you 175 00:12:01.490 --> 00:12:05.289 know, if you're a chief financial officer or an accountant, then maybe you're 176 00:12:05.409 --> 00:12:09.090 trying to like solve the problem of how do I close my books faster every 177 00:12:09.210 --> 00:12:13.289 month, you know, to report my earnings back to our board? And 178 00:12:13.809 --> 00:12:16.159 if that's the case and there's different software, that's going to be right for 179 00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:20.679 you. And so I think categories are very useful, but I think actually 180 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:24.279 like getting down to the heart of like what is the problem that the concert, 181 00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:28.200 the category and the software solves, and working from that will lead you 182 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:31.830 down, you know, the best path for you on your journey in terms 183 00:12:31.830 --> 00:12:35.429 of finding what's best for your company. Yeah, it's really interesting you mentioned 184 00:12:35.470 --> 00:12:41.669 that because one of the ideas in the book play bigger, which is kind 185 00:12:41.669 --> 00:12:46.620 of like the Gospel on category design, is that if you're thinking through the 186 00:12:46.779 --> 00:12:50.419 category design process, you really need to think about problem first. So your 187 00:12:50.500 --> 00:12:56.299 problem market fair and if you look at the narratives of companies who have really 188 00:12:56.860 --> 00:13:01.769 built some of these major categories, it's not so much about the category name 189 00:13:01.769 --> 00:13:03.769 itself, that that is important to a degree, but it's really the underlying 190 00:13:03.809 --> 00:13:11.490 narrative, underlying problem that they're trying to use to connect with people. Yeah, 191 00:13:11.490 --> 00:13:13.440 absolutely, I think like that's the most imvolved on it and I think, 192 00:13:13.919 --> 00:13:18.759 you know, as BEDB market as, we oftentimes get too caught up 193 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:24.960 in sort of like features and functionality and we don't focus enough on, you 194 00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:28.350 know, what's the problem and like what are the emotions that this thing is 195 00:13:28.429 --> 00:13:31.629 solving for. Yeah, I want to go back to something you mentioned a 196 00:13:31.669 --> 00:13:35.750 moment ago with this is idea of like Russian nesting dolls, with kind of 197 00:13:35.950 --> 00:13:41.110 categories within categories, because I saw this the other day. I was looking 198 00:13:41.149 --> 00:13:46.500 at the account based marketing space and I expected there just be to be an 199 00:13:46.500 --> 00:13:50.419 ABM category and that was that was kind of it. But what I found 200 00:13:50.539 --> 00:13:56.009 was that you have multiple variations on account based marketing software. I don't remember 201 00:13:56.649 --> 00:13:58.289 the exact, you know, words and phrases that are used today, but 202 00:13:58.850 --> 00:14:03.330 that that's an example of the category that was in kind of broken up and 203 00:14:03.370 --> 00:14:07.490 then there were subcategories off of that. And so maybe, with that example 204 00:14:07.610 --> 00:14:13.559 in mind, can you walk us through how your team approaches like naming and 205 00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:18.080 dubbing categories? Do you look for guidance from the software companies themselves? You 206 00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:22.360 Look for guidance from buyers? Do you. I don't imagine you do this 207 00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:24.909 in an ivory tower. But what is what is that process look like? 208 00:14:24.230 --> 00:14:28.309 Yeah, we good question. Yeah, so you know to your point, 209 00:14:28.350 --> 00:14:31.950 right. So, account based marketing, I. ABM, is definitely, 210 00:14:31.950 --> 00:14:33.389 like, you know, quite a large broad term, right than as a 211 00:14:33.509 --> 00:14:37.899 count Bas advertising, account based intelligence, Account Base execution, account bays, 212 00:14:37.940 --> 00:14:45.539 analytics, as on a different subsectors. And I think like what's worth noting 213 00:14:45.620 --> 00:14:48.299 maybe is that I think if you look at kind of outside versus a lot 214 00:14:48.299 --> 00:14:52.850 about competitors, we have typically around three x the number of categories little arm 215 00:14:52.929 --> 00:14:56.769 products on our side. So they going to a many law yeah, we're 216 00:14:56.769 --> 00:15:00.850 going to a lot more detail, not only in reviews. So we have 217 00:15:00.970 --> 00:15:03.450 more reviews than anyone individuals, you know, competitor out there. But like 218 00:15:03.570 --> 00:15:07.639 we're going into like a lot more detail in terms of how we're categorizing those 219 00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:13.320 products, because the better we can categorize, the better we can give recommendations. 220 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:16.840 Because right, like if we use ABM as a grouping, like you 221 00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:22.549 could effectively call like Sendoso, which is, you know, direct mail software 222 00:15:22.669 --> 00:15:26.029 that connects into your cms. WHRE's a solution like the sales force and allows 223 00:15:26.029 --> 00:15:31.830 you to execute on an ABM strategy like that. That kind of is account 224 00:15:31.870 --> 00:15:35.460 base execution software, but that's like very different execution to, you know, 225 00:15:35.820 --> 00:15:41.980 something like a you know, an account based advertising platform that's like running ads 226 00:15:41.059 --> 00:15:45.100 online, and the features and how we would compare those different things in the 227 00:15:45.179 --> 00:15:48.340 pricing and everything is totally different, and so we spent a lot of time 228 00:15:48.500 --> 00:15:52.610 and money on like making sure that, you know, we're categorizing properly, 229 00:15:52.649 --> 00:15:56.289 and I guess that kind of leads me into kind of what you're asking. 230 00:15:56.330 --> 00:15:58.769 So we we basically start to look at the space and as we start to 231 00:15:58.850 --> 00:16:03.679 see kind of like sectors forming within it and kind of like clusters of products 232 00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:07.799 in a new space, that will be how we then start to indicate, 233 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:11.799 okay, like is there kind of like a breakout subcategory within this product category 234 00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:15.039 that we should be looking more into? And you know, we have so 235 00:16:15.159 --> 00:16:18.309 we have a lot of rules and like details are and how we do create 236 00:16:18.470 --> 00:16:22.950 those things. So, like I don't think and we have like some pretty 237 00:16:22.950 --> 00:16:25.950 broad, like, sorry, pretty detailed guidelines that I won't remember top of 238 00:16:26.110 --> 00:16:29.509 mine because this is our research team that does this. But you know, 239 00:16:30.029 --> 00:16:33.019 based on like the number of providers in a space, is also important. 240 00:16:33.019 --> 00:16:37.860 Right, if there's just like one product out there that's like doing something new 241 00:16:37.940 --> 00:16:41.139 and different, I don't know if that with then warrant US breaking out a 242 00:16:41.379 --> 00:16:45.259 new subcategory. We might, depending on kind of like the momentum around people 243 00:16:45.259 --> 00:16:48.889 moving to that if they had a lot of customers and maybe then no one 244 00:16:48.929 --> 00:16:52.450 else would crack the code on how to build a product similar, then we 245 00:16:52.529 --> 00:16:55.409 probably would write because, like we can see the momentum. But if you 246 00:16:55.529 --> 00:16:59.649 look at sort of like the way we visualize data in terms of know, 247 00:16:59.769 --> 00:17:03.879 how satisfied are your customers and then like what is your market share, market 248 00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:07.279 presence? So like we're factoring in both of those things to start to work 249 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:11.960 out. Okay, like are there enough customers in a new space and there 250 00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:15.869 are enough of those different competitors as well as different, you know, users 251 00:17:15.950 --> 00:17:19.349 of them to then give kind of size to that new subcategory? Sure, 252 00:17:19.950 --> 00:17:23.029 and so we don't really then, I guess you you kind of asked as 253 00:17:23.069 --> 00:17:27.230 a subquestion, like how much input do we get from sellers of vendors? 254 00:17:27.869 --> 00:17:32.180 You know, we're always open for them to give us their thoughts, but 255 00:17:32.339 --> 00:17:34.779 that doesn't mean that we will create a category for them and we most you 256 00:17:34.819 --> 00:17:37.700 know, will often get them asking because, like they want to be know, 257 00:17:37.779 --> 00:17:42.259 they're trying to coin a term and they want to create a category around 258 00:17:42.339 --> 00:17:47.609 that term, and we definitely won't do that unless we can see momentum around 259 00:17:48.170 --> 00:17:52.329 that as a true category. And so again, part of what that means 260 00:17:52.369 --> 00:17:55.690 is, like we would look into kind of search volume and trends and our 261 00:17:55.809 --> 00:18:00.480 people actually searching for of this as a category? Or is it just one 262 00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:03.640 set seller or vendor that's talking about it? Are People like talking about it 263 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:07.119 on social media, on core and read it and these different forums? So 264 00:18:07.720 --> 00:18:12.230 our research team, you know, are incredibly far far in terms of how 265 00:18:12.430 --> 00:18:18.069 we go about this. And again they have kind of internal processes they use, 266 00:18:18.269 --> 00:18:21.869 which we don't completely share all of that externally. Do so that we 267 00:18:21.950 --> 00:18:25.390 don't want folks to try and like game out, you know, Algorithm. 268 00:18:25.789 --> 00:18:27.380 But you know, we share quite a lot about it at the high level, 269 00:18:27.420 --> 00:18:32.660 but we don't share some of the waitings around how our categories work. 270 00:18:32.700 --> 00:18:36.500 And you know, we build in like pretty like detailed things like time decay 271 00:18:36.579 --> 00:18:40.220 into reviews, for example. So you know, a review from five years 272 00:18:40.220 --> 00:18:44.009 ago is worth less in terms of your waiting than a review from three days 273 00:18:44.049 --> 00:18:47.809 ago, and there's so many different sort of like levels that we've built into 274 00:18:47.809 --> 00:18:52.569 our algorithm over time to avoid folks gaming at yeah, even to the point 275 00:18:52.650 --> 00:18:59.079 where, like if if review came in organically from someone through Google that was 276 00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:03.079 just searching, as opposed to if it was a customer of the seller and 277 00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:07.079 they like promoted that person to leave a review, we will wait that review 278 00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:11.190 less than someone that came organically. Like again, this is just scratching the 279 00:19:11.269 --> 00:19:12.869 surface really how like deep we go on this. But you know, this 280 00:19:14.029 --> 00:19:18.109 is literally kind of like the meat and Vege of like, you know, 281 00:19:18.190 --> 00:19:21.509 our business, so we can take it very seriously. Sure. So, 282 00:19:21.630 --> 00:19:26.259 if I'm a vendor and I'm looking at the way my business is placed within 283 00:19:26.339 --> 00:19:30.740 GTWO and I'm thinking, yeah, it's kind of close, but there's not 284 00:19:30.940 --> 00:19:33.140 really a better place for me. You know, they feel like they don't 285 00:19:33.140 --> 00:19:37.539 have a good home. There's like there's kind of two scenarios they have to 286 00:19:37.579 --> 00:19:41.170 weigh. One would be maybe the category that they are now. Maybe it's 287 00:19:41.170 --> 00:19:45.210 not perfect, but there's get they're getting some attention because there's search traffic and 288 00:19:45.289 --> 00:19:48.089 interests. It's a known category. But there's also the risk that if it's 289 00:19:48.089 --> 00:19:52.210 not quite a good fit that people are they have the wrong expectations of what 290 00:19:52.250 --> 00:19:55.839 they're supposed to do and when they look closer at the product they shake their 291 00:19:55.839 --> 00:19:57.839 heads no because it's not quite what they were looking for, not quite with 292 00:19:57.880 --> 00:20:02.119 the head in mind. So maybe there's a case for then creating a new 293 00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:04.680 message kind of break out from that. So what's your advice to it to 294 00:20:04.759 --> 00:20:07.710 a vendor if they find themselves in that spot? Yeah, I mean, 295 00:20:07.710 --> 00:20:11.190 I think what I would say is, like thinking about a category is still 296 00:20:11.190 --> 00:20:17.869 a pretty superficial way to think about products and comparisons ultimately, and we do 297 00:20:18.029 --> 00:20:19.750 that just because to what I was was saying earlier is like if you are 298 00:20:21.029 --> 00:20:25.180 a beginner to a certain category and you're searching a parent category like sale software, 299 00:20:25.220 --> 00:20:26.779 and then we hope you kind of like get more granula. At the 300 00:20:26.819 --> 00:20:30.420 end of the day, that is still just meant to be a short cut. 301 00:20:30.539 --> 00:20:33.980 Really. I think where the mate of like what we provide is is 302 00:20:34.420 --> 00:20:40.529 in like the live comparisons, so where you can actually compare, you know, 303 00:20:40.730 --> 00:20:42.250 like let's you know, we were talking about and you know, account 304 00:20:42.289 --> 00:20:45.490 based marketing earlier, right, like if we're talking about account base advertising, 305 00:20:45.890 --> 00:20:51.599 then you like where you can truly compare engage to terminus, right, or, 306 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:56.079 if it's cm soft, where you can truly compare infusions off to hub 307 00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:59.720 spot. And then when you're comparing it, now you're like getting into like 308 00:21:00.039 --> 00:21:04.509 the actual features that make up the category itself. And so now you're looking 309 00:21:04.549 --> 00:21:08.789 at like of all of the hundreds of or thousands of people that have reviewed 310 00:21:08.869 --> 00:21:12.750 these two software or five pieces of software. Right, you can compare more 311 00:21:12.789 --> 00:21:17.670 than more than many as you want. Then you can start to see, 312 00:21:17.750 --> 00:21:21.859 like okay, like where do these folks like rank and stack on those certain 313 00:21:21.900 --> 00:21:25.579 features? And now you know, based on what you know about like what 314 00:21:25.740 --> 00:21:29.579 you need from the tool, you can then make a decisions. So the 315 00:21:29.700 --> 00:21:32.140 categories, like I don't want to call them vanity that because they're not. 316 00:21:32.259 --> 00:21:36.849 They're definitely more important than that. But again they're just like an important earlier 317 00:21:37.009 --> 00:21:41.450 step in that process. But a lot of buyers don't need categories rip right, 318 00:21:41.529 --> 00:21:45.730 like they've already have heard about a few different vendors and they'll come in 319 00:21:45.289 --> 00:21:51.680 already with intent around company X, first company why, and then from there 320 00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:56.000 they may learn about companies and, you know, where they can then like 321 00:21:56.119 --> 00:22:00.119 add that into their comparison, because will then ensure them alternatives based on what 322 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:03.109 they've thing Shull said to us. So so, you know, I think 323 00:22:03.150 --> 00:22:06.869 like kind of liked around at your question. Like if you are, you 324 00:22:06.950 --> 00:22:08.829 know, building a software company, are building a category. I mean it's 325 00:22:10.109 --> 00:22:14.150 you know, it would be educational for sure for you to look at the 326 00:22:14.349 --> 00:22:18.420 current categories that exist, but I don't think that necessarily means you need to 327 00:22:18.539 --> 00:22:22.819 kind of design your product or service for those categories because again, like I 328 00:22:22.859 --> 00:22:26.539 said, no category is perfect for anyone realistically, and they will all always 329 00:22:26.539 --> 00:22:30.130 be some features that, like you are, are not optimized for. They 330 00:22:30.130 --> 00:22:33.970 might be cross over into other categories, and that's why we have pretty clear 331 00:22:34.089 --> 00:22:37.930 and public rules around like what is it like? What features do you need 332 00:22:38.130 --> 00:22:41.809 to have if you want to be able to like show your product in a 333 00:22:41.970 --> 00:22:45.799 certain category? So, like if we use the account base sort of like 334 00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:49.759 umbrella again, right, like you know, platform like terminus would be in 335 00:22:49.880 --> 00:22:56.279 account base execution software because of their advertising components, but they'd also be an 336 00:22:56.279 --> 00:23:00.990 account based reporting software because of their reporting features. Yeah, and you know, 337 00:23:00.390 --> 00:23:03.509 one of their competitors may not have any reporting yet, and so if 338 00:23:03.549 --> 00:23:07.869 they weren't and they didn't have, you know, the more robust reporting features 339 00:23:07.869 --> 00:23:11.430 that we require to be in the reporting subcategory, then they wouldn't make it 340 00:23:11.549 --> 00:23:14.980 there until they did have that. So, you know, they could work 341 00:23:15.019 --> 00:23:18.660 with our research team to better understand what those things are. But again, 342 00:23:18.220 --> 00:23:22.019 and our research team is also kind of like learning as well and evolving these 343 00:23:22.140 --> 00:23:26.900 categories over time. So if we start to see shifts, then we will. 344 00:23:26.410 --> 00:23:30.609 You know, the categories in the products are all very much like living. 345 00:23:30.650 --> 00:23:33.650 Yeah, yeah, so it sounds like what you're saying is companies shouldn't 346 00:23:33.690 --> 00:23:40.089 get overly hung up on the categories that are present in your platform today. 347 00:23:40.089 --> 00:23:44.759 It's really more important to understand the problem of trying to solve the features that 348 00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:48.799 are important to those. Absolutely, but yeah, absolutely, and I think 349 00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:51.880 that's where, like, you know, you know, it can be quite 350 00:23:51.960 --> 00:23:56.789 like informative coming to Gtwo and reading, reading literally the reviews about your competitive's 351 00:23:56.789 --> 00:24:00.869 right. Everything's available. So if you're a really smart CEO or product leader, 352 00:24:02.269 --> 00:24:04.309 like let's go out there and look at the existing categories and seek like 353 00:24:04.430 --> 00:24:08.869 what are they all saying? Is there general sentiment and a certain category that 354 00:24:08.990 --> 00:24:12.700 like one part of a product isn't working? And like okay, do you 355 00:24:12.859 --> 00:24:18.579 then maybe build a standalone point solution to fill that problem that everyone is mentioning 356 00:24:18.700 --> 00:24:21.779 about all of these other products? Like you can learn a lot from that 357 00:24:22.299 --> 00:24:26.089 and then create a solution that fits for the current category or creates a new 358 00:24:26.210 --> 00:24:30.609 category. So definitely like very useful data for you to have, but I 359 00:24:30.690 --> 00:24:34.529 don't think I would necessarily say you should limit yourselves to the categories as is. 360 00:24:34.809 --> 00:24:37.089 You know that wouldn't be the way, I think, to build a 361 00:24:37.369 --> 00:24:41.759 super disruptive business in the long term. Sure, it almost reminds me of 362 00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:45.960 how you might look at Seo and that you can get bad seo advice, 363 00:24:45.079 --> 00:24:49.240 which is going to just focus on like writing content only for our seo sake 364 00:24:49.559 --> 00:24:53.630 and not really thinking about like whether anyone actually wants to read that or you're 365 00:24:53.630 --> 00:24:57.150 actually helping someone or adding something of value. It's kind of a superficial way 366 00:24:57.150 --> 00:25:00.109 of looking at it. And there's almost just like superficial way of looking at 367 00:25:00.150 --> 00:25:06.990 categories and like getting overly hung up on this the semantics and this specific name 368 00:25:07.029 --> 00:25:11.180 for a category. And then there's the more I think may be practical and 369 00:25:11.380 --> 00:25:12.859 valuable way of looking at it. So for us see, I would be 370 00:25:12.859 --> 00:25:15.660 like, yes, let's we want to rank for traffic, but let's also 371 00:25:15.779 --> 00:25:19.859 make sure we're writing something that adds value and is as useful to someone so 372 00:25:19.980 --> 00:25:22.690 when they get there it's actually going to do more for us. And like 373 00:25:22.809 --> 00:25:26.250 with category, you know, let's make sure that the way we've just described 374 00:25:26.450 --> 00:25:30.049 our solution to a problem and how we frame that problem, it's let's make 375 00:25:30.089 --> 00:25:34.369 sure really thoughtful on that, because that's ultimately what's going to evoke emotion and 376 00:25:34.410 --> 00:25:38.000 action and get people excited about what you're offering. And the category name might 377 00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:41.359 be right, it might be off a little bit, but ultimately that's not 378 00:25:41.559 --> 00:25:45.200 the set the goal. Yeah, I think you're a hundred percent spot on 379 00:25:45.519 --> 00:25:48.519 and I also don't think like people realize how hard category creation is, right. 380 00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:51.950 You know, I'm sure people talk about this on yeah, because a 381 00:25:52.029 --> 00:25:53.549 lot. But you know, you know, back at when I was at 382 00:25:53.549 --> 00:25:59.509 hub spot right, launching hub spot in Asia Pacific, inbound marketing was in 383 00:25:59.630 --> 00:26:03.740 a category in Asia Pacific until very, very recently, right, so that 384 00:26:03.940 --> 00:26:07.779 people in mind in that market just wouldn't search for mbul marketing, they were 385 00:26:07.819 --> 00:26:14.819 searching for terms like digital marketing. So there's like regional you know nuances to 386 00:26:15.019 --> 00:26:18.529 categories. Even even if, like the features, the benefits and the problems 387 00:26:18.569 --> 00:26:22.369 that you're solving and fixing and whatnot are still the same, you know, 388 00:26:22.450 --> 00:26:27.250 the way they search and the maturity around the category name even can be very 389 00:26:27.289 --> 00:26:32.529 different. So I think it's just like we're realizing for folks that like creating 390 00:26:32.569 --> 00:26:36.279 a category as a lot harder before it becomes easier in your owner right. 391 00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:38.759 And I think it doesn't always end well, but the ones that do it 392 00:26:38.839 --> 00:26:41.720 really well absolutely do a great job. So I think it comes down to 393 00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:45.519 realistically, like is what you're trying to solve that problem. Like, is 394 00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:51.549 there a true kind of like opportunity for you to like create new space in 395 00:26:52.230 --> 00:26:56.029 that world right now that currently exists? And if so, awesome, like 396 00:26:56.150 --> 00:26:59.869 go and hard. If not, like maybe that's not the best place for 397 00:26:59.950 --> 00:27:03.140 you to focus your time. Maybe it's best for you to actually focus on 398 00:27:03.180 --> 00:27:07.180 an existing category that create a product that is better than all the other tools 399 00:27:07.220 --> 00:27:08.779 or easier to use and all the other tools, or cheaper than all the 400 00:27:08.819 --> 00:27:12.259 other tools. Like there are so many different elements around how you can win 401 00:27:12.259 --> 00:27:15.930 in a in an existing category. Yeah, yeah, that's right, and 402 00:27:17.410 --> 00:27:21.769 both CMOS A up spot. Mike and Kip told me that when they first 403 00:27:21.769 --> 00:27:25.329 started talking about in bound, it was like yelling into a void where no 404 00:27:25.410 --> 00:27:27.329 one was listening for a few years and they just had to have the patients 405 00:27:27.410 --> 00:27:32.240 and perseverance to push through it totally. And I think, you know, 406 00:27:32.839 --> 00:27:36.759 they had the strength to be able to push that because, like, they 407 00:27:36.839 --> 00:27:40.759 did know that what they were creating and this concept of like pulling people in 408 00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:48.150 inbound versus pushing out and interrupting was actually uniquely different and was a really different 409 00:27:48.190 --> 00:27:52.710 and unique way to package up these like products that solved product problems. Sure, 410 00:27:52.029 --> 00:27:55.910 whereas if you just kind of thinking up a pithy name for the sake 411 00:27:55.990 --> 00:27:57.509 of it, but it's the same thing, then I would say, like, 412 00:27:57.900 --> 00:28:02.180 I don't know how successful you will end up being. Yeah, that's 413 00:28:02.220 --> 00:28:04.660 a little path, a little contract to build momentum. I think around at. 414 00:28:04.700 --> 00:28:08.539 Yeah, yeah, and that actually leads to an example that I just 415 00:28:08.660 --> 00:28:12.490 read about earlier this afternoon. Maybe you maybe you read the same story, 416 00:28:12.609 --> 00:28:18.730 but there's a category called conversation intelligence, and actually did an interview with with 417 00:28:18.849 --> 00:28:22.009 Gong Chris Roll of a few months ago when we talked about the conversation intelligence 418 00:28:22.089 --> 00:28:26.400 category and a chorus is another one who's promoting this out. Yeah, and 419 00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:33.160 just recently gone an ounce that their categories now called revenue intelligence, and I 420 00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:36.720 haven't really had time to dive deep into this, but I'm wondering what your 421 00:28:36.799 --> 00:28:41.119 take is. Is this just like like over thinking it, about it like 422 00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:44.710 too hard and this is this more contrived, or is there can you think 423 00:28:44.750 --> 00:28:48.269 of like a more thoughtful or strategic reason why they might want to choose another 424 00:28:48.269 --> 00:28:52.390 term from from what they've been using for the last year or two? Yeah, 425 00:28:52.430 --> 00:28:55.509 I mean, you know, I can only kind of like make my 426 00:28:55.710 --> 00:28:57.819 thoughts. Just don't like what I'm hearing and again, I haven't seen the 427 00:28:57.859 --> 00:29:02.220 way they're communicating about those categories. So, like I you know, this 428 00:29:02.339 --> 00:29:04.900 is going to be a very uneducated response, but you know, I think 429 00:29:04.980 --> 00:29:08.099 like a few and a few initial thoughts, right, like there's definitely more 430 00:29:08.299 --> 00:29:15.490 categories now around conversations, and so conversation intelligence. Right, when you immediately 431 00:29:15.529 --> 00:29:19.009 said that's any the first thing that kind of came to mind was, you 432 00:29:19.089 --> 00:29:23.799 know, like a reporting components of conversational marketing. And when I think a 433 00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:29.759 conversational marketing today and the way people search for conversational marketing and the intent that 434 00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:33.720 they're showing is more around kind of how do I create conversational experiences on the 435 00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:38.230 web? So it's typically like food chat bots in terms of what we're seeing 436 00:29:38.269 --> 00:29:41.430 right now, right, and I think drift have done a very good job 437 00:29:41.470 --> 00:29:45.390 at trying to like own that space. So I think you know, you 438 00:29:45.470 --> 00:29:48.589 know. Just for you saying that, then a new media kind of recall. 439 00:29:48.670 --> 00:29:52.940 Like I wouldn't have thought of conversational intelligence meaning kind of like analyzing the 440 00:29:53.099 --> 00:29:57.579 conversations, but but that very naturally makes sense. So I don't know. 441 00:29:57.740 --> 00:30:00.700 So it could be like a good move, it could be a bad move. 442 00:30:00.779 --> 00:30:03.940 I mean going to was a revenue intelligence. You said, yeah, 443 00:30:03.980 --> 00:30:07.059 Revenue Intelligence. I mean again, it's hard to say because, you know, 444 00:30:07.140 --> 00:30:08.890 we don't know. You're either direction of their product, right, like 445 00:30:08.930 --> 00:30:14.690 if their product now is going deeper into revenue and and less into kind of 446 00:30:14.730 --> 00:30:18.490 like if I think about kind of let me actually day a step back, 447 00:30:18.170 --> 00:30:22.039 if I kind of just compare on the surface level, revenue intelligence verse Conversation 448 00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:26.480 Intelligence. What I like about revenue intelligence is that it's like output focused, 449 00:30:26.599 --> 00:30:30.359 right, like a conversation is the input, revenue is the output. So 450 00:30:32.039 --> 00:30:33.720 it's kind of like a bit of a catch twenty two and that like you're 451 00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:40.869 getting me intelligence from the conversations, but you actually don't really give to kind 452 00:30:40.869 --> 00:30:44.630 of rats about the actual conversational intelligence. That's really a bad like what that 453 00:30:44.710 --> 00:30:48.990 then means for revenue. So I do like that in terms of it being 454 00:30:48.109 --> 00:30:52.619 outcome focused, and I think that is definitely going to peak someone's ears, 455 00:30:52.940 --> 00:30:57.380 more more so because it's focus on like a more meaningful thing, revenue, 456 00:30:57.460 --> 00:31:02.220 whereas conversations aren't really classified as that meaningful in my mind, like there are 457 00:31:02.299 --> 00:31:04.049 means to an end. Sure, so I like that. Yeah, I 458 00:31:04.089 --> 00:31:07.210 think that's like a unique way to think about it. On the flip side, 459 00:31:07.210 --> 00:31:11.250 though, right, like revenue intelligence, there's a lot of things that 460 00:31:11.369 --> 00:31:15.450 can lead to revenue intelligence and you don't necessarily immediately think it's going to come 461 00:31:15.490 --> 00:31:19.920 from conversations. So now it might be a more meaningful category to think of 462 00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:23.759 it in there in their mind and to their buyer, but now you might 463 00:31:23.799 --> 00:31:30.440 be competing with a very different range of other revenue intelligence products that have nothing 464 00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:34.029 to do with kind of core recordings. Yeah, that's right. Betteral what 465 00:31:34.150 --> 00:31:37.150 I say? I don't know. You know, in conversations can take place 466 00:31:37.509 --> 00:31:41.789 in contexts that are not revenue dependent either. So that's true. Yeah, 467 00:31:42.269 --> 00:31:47.900 and I think conversations can happen like a conversation can be kind of in text, 468 00:31:47.980 --> 00:31:51.539 right, whereas my understanding of gone and chorus right now it's like audio 469 00:31:51.700 --> 00:31:56.180 analysts. So you know, a lot of conversations are happening over email right, 470 00:31:56.339 --> 00:32:00.900 maybe more actually happening ever, email than over audio and video. So 471 00:32:00.490 --> 00:32:05.049 sure, that's interesting and I you know, I don't know if gone intended 472 00:32:05.130 --> 00:32:09.410 that in if they intended Revenue Intelligence as a replacement for conversation intelligence or as 473 00:32:09.450 --> 00:32:14.609 a new additional category on top of that. So something I need to dive 474 00:32:14.650 --> 00:32:16.799 a little deeper into. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, who do you 475 00:32:16.839 --> 00:32:22.200 think's doing a great job with positioning and messaging today? Good question. Besides, 476 00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:27.640 she too, and I think we've got a little ares we can improve. 477 00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:30.230 Well, your team, to be care your team. You guys did 478 00:32:30.269 --> 00:32:32.029 when some awards, your product marketing team, when some awards receive it. 479 00:32:32.190 --> 00:32:35.470 I didn't know. I was pretty amazed by that. You know, we 480 00:32:35.509 --> 00:32:39.670 ever might like a small but mighty team and product marketers, Yoni, Auburn 481 00:32:39.670 --> 00:32:44.619 and Gina and you know, yeah, for them to win kind of like 482 00:32:44.819 --> 00:32:46.579 that. I don't know if it was. I think it was definitely America 483 00:32:46.700 --> 00:32:50.940 wide award from the product marking linspect. Could it been even global? I'm 484 00:32:50.980 --> 00:32:53.539 not sure. That's, I don't want to like oversell it, any very 485 00:32:53.619 --> 00:32:58.500 big award. They proud out of them being ranked like the number one product 486 00:32:58.500 --> 00:33:01.809 marketing team. So they're doing really cool things. But yeah, I think 487 00:33:01.809 --> 00:33:05.849 outside of D too. You know, if I think on the consumer side, 488 00:33:05.930 --> 00:33:09.369 like I've just always been, I always sworn pretty hard over, you 489 00:33:09.450 --> 00:33:14.720 know, what are BMB is doing? Like I just love the way they've 490 00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:19.200 kind of like thought a thought about like kind of what is the value that 491 00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:22.119 they're uses their buyers get out of their service, right, and that whole 492 00:33:22.440 --> 00:33:25.960 travel like a local, or so I live like a local. Campaign just 493 00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:30.509 like beautifully encompasses that. Like I love Air B ANDB and I use it 494 00:33:30.630 --> 00:33:32.190 because, like I want to feel like a local. I don't want to 495 00:33:32.190 --> 00:33:36.910 be in a hotel. Like to me hotels is terile and they they just 496 00:33:37.190 --> 00:33:39.349 they remind me that I'm not in a place that I want to like live 497 00:33:39.430 --> 00:33:42.700 in and when I go on a vacation I want to feel like I'm immers. 498 00:33:42.819 --> 00:33:45.700 So I love what they do on like the beat of B side. 499 00:33:45.779 --> 00:33:49.220 You know, I'm a big fan of what a SUNA does. Like a 500 00:33:49.339 --> 00:33:52.339 lot of their messaging is very much like output focused in terms of you know, 501 00:33:52.460 --> 00:33:57.809 so Saunas a productivity tool, one of many great productivity tools. It's 502 00:33:57.890 --> 00:34:00.009 the productivity tool that we have chosen, a GT to use. That might 503 00:34:00.130 --> 00:34:02.650 me and my team of views. I use it a hub spot, and 504 00:34:02.769 --> 00:34:05.849 they do a really, yeah, beautiful to as I mentioned, kind of 505 00:34:05.890 --> 00:34:09.079 talking about like how they help you do work better and get work done. 506 00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:14.559 It's not about kind of like the software. It's about like getting done, 507 00:34:14.920 --> 00:34:16.800 you know, your work more, faster, more efficiently and with like joy. 508 00:34:17.679 --> 00:34:21.599 They've built that into the product right. Like there are certain things like 509 00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:24.269 when you you know, ticket to do list, item complete, you know 510 00:34:24.429 --> 00:34:28.510 are Unicorn will should because it's green, right, like you know which is 511 00:34:28.829 --> 00:34:32.469 they've really don't such a beautiful job at like connecting in with those delight moments, 512 00:34:32.510 --> 00:34:36.510 right, like, because it does feel fun to get work done right, 513 00:34:36.670 --> 00:34:38.659 like to get like those two do listen and some that's like one of 514 00:34:38.699 --> 00:34:42.179 the fucking highlights of my day. And so, you know, when you 515 00:34:42.219 --> 00:34:45.219 see that the Unicorn, you start to connect the motion more with them and 516 00:34:45.300 --> 00:34:46.900 their product and their brand. So they do it really well. I think, 517 00:34:46.900 --> 00:34:50.380 you know, we mentioned drift before. Drifted done a great job not 518 00:34:50.460 --> 00:34:53.929 only of category creation around conversational marketing, but I think they've done a great 519 00:34:53.969 --> 00:34:59.170 job with kind of telling a bigger story right because, you know, I 520 00:34:59.570 --> 00:35:02.090 think they started from pretty humble beginnings and I'm big fan of the team a 521 00:35:02.130 --> 00:35:06.610 drift and a lots of them personally. And but you know, I mean 522 00:35:06.730 --> 00:35:09.519 essentially, like chat bots for your website isn't typically the thing that you would 523 00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:15.079 think of as being a super kind of like sexy thing. Sure, but 524 00:35:15.199 --> 00:35:19.480 I think they've done a really good job at kind of like helping people realize 525 00:35:19.559 --> 00:35:22.150 it like that is like, you know, your home page or your website 526 00:35:22.230 --> 00:35:25.829 is effectively you know, you're a retail store today and in our world, 527 00:35:27.030 --> 00:35:30.630 and so you know, just like you wouldn't have kind of like a closed 528 00:35:30.750 --> 00:35:34.429 sign, you'd have someone there greeting people, like their product can do that 529 00:35:34.670 --> 00:35:37.940 for you. And so I think they've done a really good job at kind 530 00:35:37.980 --> 00:35:43.780 of like elevating the importance maybe of that category. And I think part of 531 00:35:43.820 --> 00:35:45.019 that through, you know, category creation, but part of it's also just 532 00:35:45.099 --> 00:35:50.010 through like really good marketing tied back to the values that, you know, 533 00:35:50.050 --> 00:35:53.329 their buyers care about, which is like revenue and efficiency and sales. Yeah, 534 00:35:53.570 --> 00:35:58.570 interesting image. This two examples, because Asana is competing in a pretty 535 00:35:58.610 --> 00:36:00.889 crowded space, like I don't know how many dozens of productivity tools out there, 536 00:36:00.969 --> 00:36:05.039 but a lot. Yeah, yeah, and certainly they haven't gone down 537 00:36:05.119 --> 00:36:07.960 the path of trying to create a new category, but they've differentiated through their 538 00:36:08.039 --> 00:36:12.480 braining and this idea. You mentioned the word joy, which is not true. 539 00:36:12.519 --> 00:36:15.840 I'm a word I think you could ascribe to many other productivity tools. 540 00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:20.349 So it's interesting that that jumped out to you and that makes a lot of 541 00:36:20.389 --> 00:36:23.150 sense when you talked about the UNICORNS and like the other elements and the user 542 00:36:23.230 --> 00:36:28.070 experience that make it really fun to use. But then withdrift, they are 543 00:36:28.190 --> 00:36:31.030 of course they are going down the path of category creation, but I also 544 00:36:31.150 --> 00:36:35.179 say see them doing a great job with a branding as well, and that 545 00:36:35.579 --> 00:36:39.179 like they talked about this idea of conversational or sorry, yeah, conversational marketing 546 00:36:39.420 --> 00:36:44.460 was about, say, intelligence and and it's like this idea of like these 547 00:36:44.780 --> 00:36:49.210 you know now like live conversations. No, delays and when you look at 548 00:36:49.329 --> 00:36:52.730 like the colors they've used, like they've got these Viron ors, it's almost 549 00:36:52.769 --> 00:36:55.690 like this graffiti type visual set. A very good job with that. Yeah, 550 00:36:55.769 --> 00:37:00.130 and it kind of conveys this idea of likes things that are like happening 551 00:37:00.170 --> 00:37:02.440 right now. There's like this energy behind it, which is great to see 552 00:37:02.440 --> 00:37:07.960 them not just doing category design will but also using braining to support like like 553 00:37:07.079 --> 00:37:12.440 a visual version of of like the core problems are trying to talk about totally. 554 00:37:12.639 --> 00:37:14.440 And you know, it's funny that you say that. Like yeah, 555 00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:17.590 in crowded space is like I think that's definitely sometimes a challenge, right, 556 00:37:17.670 --> 00:37:23.989 because you know when you're and I think brands often oscillate between using descriptive language. 557 00:37:24.070 --> 00:37:27.949 So like let's use kind of you know, Sonos, example. I 558 00:37:28.030 --> 00:37:30.980 like descriptive language, in my mind, is like project management software, yeah, 559 00:37:31.500 --> 00:37:37.980 versus kind of like a motive values, output driven language, which would 560 00:37:37.980 --> 00:37:40.860 be like, you know, right now their tagline is, I mean it's 561 00:37:40.860 --> 00:37:45.090 like make more time for the work that matters most, okay, which is 562 00:37:45.090 --> 00:37:47.329 a little bit wordy and want they used to be used to be a little 563 00:37:47.329 --> 00:37:52.489 bit more distinct. Team works right now is like working together full stop, 564 00:37:52.610 --> 00:37:54.570 beautifully. Right. So, like, if you compare them to like that's 565 00:37:54.570 --> 00:37:58.250 very similar. Make more time for the work that matters most. It's like 566 00:37:58.369 --> 00:38:01.880 a motive working doing the right work and working together beautifully. So I think 567 00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:07.239 the challenge sometimes can be right when you start to go down those emotive paths, 568 00:38:07.639 --> 00:38:10.280 is that it's yes, you sound, you all start to sound semi 569 00:38:10.440 --> 00:38:15.550 similar. And also for like some buyers, they may come to your side 570 00:38:15.630 --> 00:38:19.070 and then just be a little bit confused around, like what is it you 571 00:38:19.150 --> 00:38:22.190 actually do? Right, like so I'm on slack right now, their website 572 00:38:22.269 --> 00:38:24.789 and there's is, you know, their tagline on their home pages. Whatever 573 00:38:24.909 --> 00:38:28.539 work you do, you can do it all. So you can do it 574 00:38:28.659 --> 00:38:30.340 in slack, which is high level. I can understand that. It kind 575 00:38:30.340 --> 00:38:32.980 of pulls me in. It makes me them want to keep reading a subhead 576 00:38:32.980 --> 00:38:36.739 which is like gives your team the power and Aligne. Mean you need to 577 00:38:36.739 --> 00:38:39.059 be best work. So, like they've definitely going down like the outputs and 578 00:38:39.099 --> 00:38:45.530 the values messaging right, like they're not saying the world's number one like internal 579 00:38:45.570 --> 00:38:50.369 chat system or like, you know, chat APP or messaging APP. Yeah, 580 00:38:50.730 --> 00:38:53.409 and I guarantee you they would have gone down that path early on, 581 00:38:53.969 --> 00:38:58.320 like when I was solidifying like who they were, and I think once you 582 00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:00.920 start to get momentum and you start to see like the organic and the viral 583 00:39:01.159 --> 00:39:07.159 growth, then I think you've got word of mouth marketing driving your messaging around 584 00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:09.230 what your product does. Then you can start to play a little bit more 585 00:39:09.389 --> 00:39:13.869 and the emotive world. That's just like my media sort of like dut take 586 00:39:13.949 --> 00:39:15.429 on it. Yeah, yeah, with that message you just read me to 587 00:39:15.469 --> 00:39:20.869 slack. It almost suggests that you maybe have an idea of what slack does, 588 00:39:20.989 --> 00:39:23.150 like it's communications by form, and now they're building on that to say 589 00:39:23.619 --> 00:39:27.820 you can actually do all your work in slack or I can't remember the exact 590 00:39:27.900 --> 00:39:32.099 messaging, but it kind of reminds me of the way BMW went back and 591 00:39:32.139 --> 00:39:37.619 forth with their messaging. So for years they used the ultimate driving machine, 592 00:39:37.699 --> 00:39:42.090 which is like a very clear, like positioning statement around it's like an engineering 593 00:39:42.170 --> 00:39:45.690 base statement. Right, not, certainly, certainly not a motive. But 594 00:39:45.769 --> 00:39:49.889 then they a few years ago they shifted to this idea of joy, I 595 00:39:50.010 --> 00:39:52.079 guess, kind of like a sauna. I can't remember the catch phrase. 596 00:39:52.119 --> 00:39:54.800 It was like the power of joy or the joy of driving something like that, 597 00:39:55.360 --> 00:39:59.079 and then they shifted back to the ultimate driving machine, I think, 598 00:39:59.079 --> 00:40:01.480 after them, which would think is a pretty common thing, and I you 599 00:40:01.559 --> 00:40:06.039 know, I think it's probably worth noting that. Like, you know, 600 00:40:06.159 --> 00:40:09.829 the average ten of a CMO right is like a couple years. And you 601 00:40:09.909 --> 00:40:13.710 know, I think depending on like of the study you see, like it 602 00:40:13.789 --> 00:40:16.110 might be, you know, eighteen months, it might be twenty four months. 603 00:40:16.150 --> 00:40:21.539 But I think what I tend to see happen is companies like if they 604 00:40:21.579 --> 00:40:24.460 don't find the right Cmo, they then they don't know what they they don't 605 00:40:24.500 --> 00:40:28.099 know, and so like they don't like what it was. The new CMA 606 00:40:28.219 --> 00:40:30.980 comes in, they change it to be too far right and then they don't 607 00:40:30.980 --> 00:40:35.219 like that. Person Leaves and then they bring another Cmil and the make it 608 00:40:35.340 --> 00:40:39.090 too far left and and I think kind of like marketing and tech anyways in 609 00:40:39.250 --> 00:40:44.409 bad world, is kind of like still in a bit of an optimization phase 610 00:40:44.489 --> 00:40:47.449 where, you know, I think for like the last five ten years we've 611 00:40:47.570 --> 00:40:52.159 been, I was in industry, maybe over indexing into like data driven demand 612 00:40:52.360 --> 00:40:57.239 and marketing focused on conversion and not a not enough on my kind of like 613 00:40:57.440 --> 00:41:00.000 brand and emotion. And now you're seeing a lot more brands, some of 614 00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:02.239 the ones that we've been talking about, just a lot of the you know, 615 00:41:02.519 --> 00:41:07.869 more popular brands today leaning much more into branding and into messaging, and 616 00:41:07.989 --> 00:41:12.750 and I guarantee, you know, in a few years will have another course 617 00:41:12.829 --> 00:41:15.949 correction right where we'll go too far in that direction and not be driving enough 618 00:41:15.949 --> 00:41:19.500 of the metrics and then we'll kind of maybe land in the middle or maybe 619 00:41:19.539 --> 00:41:21.940 go too far the other way right. I think that's just like a bit 620 00:41:22.019 --> 00:41:24.860 of a natural ebb and flow. Yeah, yeah, it's almost like a 621 00:41:24.940 --> 00:41:28.780 pendulum. And we know, we had all these tools that were introduced to 622 00:41:28.940 --> 00:41:32.409 us with marketing automation and digital marketing and all the other things that that allowed 623 00:41:32.409 --> 00:41:37.170 us to do, and so we got very focused on the mechanics of marketing 624 00:41:37.769 --> 00:41:40.889 and and I have really shifted away from how, you know, brands can 625 00:41:42.010 --> 00:41:45.010 end and I think is world right. Like, I think what's actually important 626 00:41:45.050 --> 00:41:46.440 to think about, and this is where I guess, you know, I'm 627 00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:52.000 a little bit kind of like cautious with sometimes categories or these platforms that kind 628 00:41:52.039 --> 00:41:53.519 of say they can do everything, is that, you know, to your 629 00:41:53.559 --> 00:42:00.000 kind point to stand, like there has been such an explosion in software and 630 00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:01.949 in technology right and, you know, thankfully, like we've been able to 631 00:42:02.030 --> 00:42:05.789 ride that wave, and that's why I'm you know, millions of people come 632 00:42:05.869 --> 00:42:09.389 to g to every week to find software for their business. But I think 633 00:42:09.949 --> 00:42:15.590 what's happened, though, is a lot of you know, software companies to 634 00:42:15.780 --> 00:42:19.500 try and drive, you know, like double digit, like a hundred percent 635 00:42:19.539 --> 00:42:23.059 year every year, sort of growth. They've sold vapor were right, they've 636 00:42:23.099 --> 00:42:28.340 like sold messages around what their products can do, and more often than not 637 00:42:28.420 --> 00:42:30.809 their product can't live up to that right. And I think, you know, 638 00:42:30.889 --> 00:42:35.849 it's still we're still another point where like every company is like totally like 639 00:42:35.969 --> 00:42:38.969 data first, data driven, and it's still not that easy to connect up 640 00:42:39.010 --> 00:42:43.570 all of your different tools and use and properly. And so, long story 641 00:42:43.650 --> 00:42:46.920 short, like it don't think today it matters how good like each point solution 642 00:42:47.119 --> 00:42:52.360 is, because a lot of the time you have technical, like technology debt 643 00:42:52.440 --> 00:42:55.519 between your current platforms you use and then your new platforms, and if the 644 00:42:55.599 --> 00:42:59.909 data can't like sync up and connect with them more properly than you know, 645 00:42:59.989 --> 00:43:02.789 if we use kind of revenue intelligence you mentioned earlier with Gong, if they 646 00:43:02.909 --> 00:43:07.230 can't kind of like pull in all of that data from your crm properly. 647 00:43:07.429 --> 00:43:12.070 The then connect kind of their own analytics with kind of the output sales to 648 00:43:12.150 --> 00:43:15.940 then start to learn about your exact sale cycles and things. You know, 649 00:43:16.019 --> 00:43:19.619 their tool will never be able to be as smart as it could be, 650 00:43:19.900 --> 00:43:23.300 right because it's like the limited by your data inputs from other sources. And 651 00:43:23.420 --> 00:43:28.170 so I just think like that something that's like worth calling out as I like, 652 00:43:28.210 --> 00:43:30.969 we're still, I think, pretty early days. Like there's so many 653 00:43:30.090 --> 00:43:35.650 great solutions out there, but there's still aren't a ton of examples where people 654 00:43:35.690 --> 00:43:38.650 have connected all of those things really perfectly just yet, where it works, 655 00:43:38.730 --> 00:43:43.519 doesn't break and people are really getting like uplift for the amount of money that 656 00:43:43.559 --> 00:43:46.079 they're spending on software. Yeah, now that reminds me of a tool I 657 00:43:46.159 --> 00:43:50.559 used, for try to use a few years ago, where that was supposed 658 00:43:50.599 --> 00:43:54.320 to get a lot more insight on what events on our website led to certain 659 00:43:54.320 --> 00:44:00.429 outcomes, and we just couldn't get the data clean enough and normalize. Yeah, 660 00:44:00.710 --> 00:44:02.750 really find it anything use. It's really tough, I think. You 661 00:44:02.829 --> 00:44:07.070 know, I think sometimes I hear a lot about you know, people often 662 00:44:07.070 --> 00:44:09.780 times at CMO events that I am out or dinners that I'm hosting or might 663 00:44:09.780 --> 00:44:13.539 be a guest at. Like I'll hear. You know, they discussion often 664 00:44:13.579 --> 00:44:16.699 times about attribution comes out right like first touch, last such multituch like weight 665 00:44:16.739 --> 00:44:22.739 at all the different types. And I like oftentimes think like marketers like spend 666 00:44:22.739 --> 00:44:27.849 a way too much try time trying to like over optimize attribution and realistically, 667 00:44:27.889 --> 00:44:30.449 like they're never going to get a perfect and there are other things that you 668 00:44:30.489 --> 00:44:36.050 could spend your time focusing on to drive like better results. And Yeah, 669 00:44:36.050 --> 00:44:38.000 I think sometimes like you can kind of just lean a little bit too hard 670 00:44:38.039 --> 00:44:43.719 into certain areas. And Yeah, so I think like any software that kind 671 00:44:43.719 --> 00:44:45.199 of says it's going to solve all of your issues, like I would be 672 00:44:45.280 --> 00:44:50.199 a little weary. Yeah, yeah, at a certain point you can't rely 673 00:44:50.360 --> 00:44:53.909 on data or split testing or multi very testing, whatever you're you want to 674 00:44:53.949 --> 00:44:58.909 call it. You just have to, you know, use your use your 675 00:44:58.949 --> 00:45:00.949 instinct, use your gut, use your use what you learned and make some 676 00:45:01.030 --> 00:45:05.789 thoughtful decisions and then just have the courage to run with it totally. Right, 677 00:45:05.869 --> 00:45:07.980 like, you know, let's use a really basic software category like email 678 00:45:08.019 --> 00:45:10.820 marketing as an example. Right, if you're like starting up and building a 679 00:45:10.900 --> 00:45:15.099 company. You know, you might have been told that you need to do 680 00:45:15.179 --> 00:45:19.179 a be testing. The reality is like you're never gonna be able to do 681 00:45:19.500 --> 00:45:23.130 baby testing where it works for you. Maybe ever. You know, like 682 00:45:23.489 --> 00:45:25.769 you know when I was at hub spoilt, and even the exact target, 683 00:45:25.849 --> 00:45:30.929 you know, it wasn't unless we were sending emails to like millions of people. 684 00:45:30.050 --> 00:45:34.769 oftentimes, whereby and again you can do some tests that, like what 685 00:45:34.889 --> 00:45:37.920 you're testing is so dramatic the results be big enough. But often times you're 686 00:45:37.960 --> 00:45:44.519 not doing dramatically different tests because, like you've already gotten things like pretty optimized 687 00:45:44.559 --> 00:45:47.159 and you're testing smaller things and they don't drive a big enough change. So 688 00:45:47.239 --> 00:45:51.349 then give you statistical significance so that you can then say, okay, like 689 00:45:51.750 --> 00:45:55.110 this test categorically one. We know it wasn't just by chance, like it 690 00:45:55.309 --> 00:45:59.190 was the change that we made. The reality is like if you're like starting 691 00:45:59.230 --> 00:46:01.269 to build an email list and you're a small, medium business, like you 692 00:46:01.389 --> 00:46:06.139 know, you might never have more than a thousand contacts and your email list 693 00:46:06.300 --> 00:46:09.659 or even tenzero, and you most likely need a lot more than that to 694 00:46:09.739 --> 00:46:15.820 get like statistical significant. So I just think like sometimes it's worth. Companies 695 00:46:15.820 --> 00:46:19.010 won't oftentimes share that sort of input. Right. They'll up so you to 696 00:46:19.090 --> 00:46:21.849 get more features so you can do AB testing with they won't and tell you 697 00:46:21.929 --> 00:46:24.690 that maybe testing isn't something that you will ever actually get value out of until 698 00:46:24.730 --> 00:46:28.929 maybe ar five. Yeah, yeah, well, I think it's a great 699 00:46:29.329 --> 00:46:31.530 kind of reminder to conclude the interview with. You know, if you're going 700 00:46:31.610 --> 00:46:36.159 down this path of category designed, if you've got a new problem you're solving, 701 00:46:36.199 --> 00:46:38.039 that's that's great, but what you're saying is, look, you can't 702 00:46:38.039 --> 00:46:44.079 get so far ahead of yourself that you end up causing frustrations with by setting 703 00:46:44.079 --> 00:46:47.309 the wrong expectations or selling they perware. You really have to be mindful about 704 00:46:47.829 --> 00:46:53.710 offering something that's truly valuable, truly unique and truly usable today. Yeah, 705 00:46:53.750 --> 00:46:57.550 absolutely, and I think like, well, it's usable or valuable, took 706 00:46:57.869 --> 00:47:00.739 to you know, your by doesn't necessarily need to be disruptive, right. 707 00:47:00.780 --> 00:47:05.460 I think like we get often a little caught up in this idea that like 708 00:47:05.659 --> 00:47:10.179 category creation or kind of category success or even company success needs to be because 709 00:47:10.260 --> 00:47:15.219 you're disrupting, you know, the big incumbents and this big old school space, 710 00:47:15.300 --> 00:47:17.849 like there aren't many companies that do that and do that successfully right. 711 00:47:19.010 --> 00:47:24.050 Like you can disrupt competitors by focusing on a lot of other things and more 712 00:47:24.130 --> 00:47:28.530 niches and pricing and features, and you know, that's like a more, 713 00:47:28.570 --> 00:47:31.800 I think, like incremental way to think about category creation, of category success, 714 00:47:31.880 --> 00:47:36.960 versus like category disruption necessarily. So, yeah, just have different ways 715 00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:38.800 to kind of skin the cart. That's great. All right. Well, 716 00:47:38.840 --> 00:47:42.960 we're almost out of time, but any other advice or pointers you want to 717 00:47:43.000 --> 00:47:45.670 leave our listeners with? No, I mean, I hope this was useful 718 00:47:45.789 --> 00:47:51.230 really to folks. And you know I'm super active on social and online, 719 00:47:51.269 --> 00:47:53.750 and so if anyone has like listen to this and as a question they can 720 00:47:53.789 --> 00:47:58.699 email me, Ryan at GTWOCOM or you know Ryan, but each is my 721 00:47:58.980 --> 00:48:02.659 like handle on all the social medias. So anyone one so you know, 722 00:48:02.780 --> 00:48:07.500 get act on social, very happy to chat. I'll do I guess that's 723 00:48:07.579 --> 00:48:13.170 technically online, but anyway, yeah, me, either way. All right. 724 00:48:13.289 --> 00:48:15.809 Well, it's great being with you today. Ryan. Thanks for all 725 00:48:15.809 --> 00:48:19.130 the advice he shared. It was a pleasure to have you on. Thanks, 726 00:48:19.170 --> 00:48:24.849 John. Need to see time. Take care by okay, that wraps 727 00:48:24.889 --> 00:48:30.079 up this episode of the Category Creation Series. I hope you enjoyed it and 728 00:48:30.559 --> 00:48:34.280 this episode made you, in at least some small way, a better marketer. 729 00:48:34.679 --> 00:48:37.280 If you have questions about this episode or want to talk further about messaging, 730 00:48:37.480 --> 00:48:42.869 positioning or category creation, my name is John Rougie and you can reach 731 00:48:42.949 --> 00:48:49.670 me at John at flag and frontiercom. That's John at flag and Frontiercom, 732 00:48:49.869 --> 00:48:52.949 or you could look for me on Linkedin. Thanks for listening. I'll see 733 00:48:52.949 --> 00:48:59.380 you next time. We totally get it. We publish a ton of content 734 00:48:59.500 --> 00:49:01.699 on this podcast and it can be a lot to keep up with. That's 735 00:49:01.739 --> 00:49:07.260 why we've started the BB growth big three, a no fluff email that boils 736 00:49:07.340 --> 00:49:12.010 down our three biggest takeaways from an entire week of episodes. Sign up today 737 00:49:12.130 --> 00:49:17.650 at Sweet Phish Mediacom Big Three. That sweet PHISH MEDIACOM Big Three