Can PLG and Traditional Sales Play Well Together? with Shanee Ben-Zur

WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:17.199 Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is be tob growth. Welcome 2 00:00:17.399 --> 00:00:20.960 into be to be growth. My name is Benjie Block. Today I am 3 00:00:21.079 --> 00:00:27.079 joined by Shani Benzer. She is the chief growth and marketing officer at Crunch 4 00:00:27.160 --> 00:00:30.679 Base Chinny. We are so glad to have you here with us. I'm 5 00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:34.600 excited to be here. Thanks for having me. Crunch base is currently strategizing 6 00:00:34.600 --> 00:00:41.359 and implementing how product blood growth, selfserve and traditional sales can kind of truly 7 00:00:41.479 --> 00:00:47.079 play together in this hybrid model that is hyper effective. I wonder what was 8 00:00:47.119 --> 00:00:52.200 the origins of this internal conversation in this drive to want to get the hybrid 9 00:00:52.240 --> 00:00:55.960 model locked in? It depends on coming to company. But for crunch based 10 00:00:55.960 --> 00:00:59.320 specifically the fact that we have this massive top of funnel. You know, 11 00:00:59.359 --> 00:01:03.239 were seventy million people are coming to the website every year. For us, 12 00:01:03.319 --> 00:01:07.599 it was a very obvious conversation to have. I would say, you know, 13 00:01:07.640 --> 00:01:11.840 if you have what almost looks like a be to be business that has 14 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:18.840 consumer ish tendencies, then having product led growth, thinking about selfserve, is 15 00:01:18.879 --> 00:01:22.519 a given. I think the challenge that a lot of be tob companies face 16 00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:26.159 is that they operate in more of a like, we'll call it traditional be 17 00:01:26.280 --> 00:01:30.359 to be method, where the only way you get prospect is that you're really 18 00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:34.359 pushing yourself out in front of them. Those prospects have no need of their 19 00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:38.640 own to kind of be inbound. For PLG companies, the opposite is true, 20 00:01:38.719 --> 00:01:42.719 and that's what we have for crunch base, where tons of people want 21 00:01:42.719 --> 00:01:45.400 to come to crunch base, they want to look up their company, they 22 00:01:45.400 --> 00:01:49.599 want to make sure their company information is correct. So that lends itself to 23 00:01:49.640 --> 00:01:52.920 having this this sort of like what is our self serve strategy? What is 24 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:57.120 our product led growth strategy? And we also had this kind of two pronged 25 00:01:57.200 --> 00:02:01.640 business. One is we license our data and the other is we sell software, 26 00:02:01.640 --> 00:02:06.079 and the data licensing is more of like a traditional business, but our 27 00:02:06.159 --> 00:02:09.879 software business is the thing that is fully fed by our huge top of funnel 28 00:02:09.879 --> 00:02:13.719 and our product led growth motion. So that's really where it all started. 29 00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:17.319 So I imagine there's kind of two specific groups we need to address that are 30 00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:22.879 probably listening to this. You have the first, and those are companies that 31 00:02:22.960 --> 00:02:27.560 maybe are not pelg right, and then second there are those that are looking 32 00:02:27.639 --> 00:02:31.719 in. They they are intrigued by a true hybrid approach, because they are 33 00:02:31.759 --> 00:02:35.719 familiar with the things that you're doing. We're going to spend the bulk of 34 00:02:35.719 --> 00:02:40.479 our time together on that second one, but talk about those in the first 35 00:02:40.479 --> 00:02:46.400 group, those in that first category that maybe aren't Pelg, especially because we're 36 00:02:46.439 --> 00:02:50.240 in a pretty uncertain time right now, and product led growth, I mean 37 00:02:50.280 --> 00:02:52.759 it's I would say it's of utmost important. So and I think you would 38 00:02:52.879 --> 00:02:54.639 probably say that as well. Yeah, I mean, I don't want to 39 00:02:54.680 --> 00:02:58.240 sound doom and gloom, but it kind of feels like if you don't have 40 00:02:58.280 --> 00:03:02.080 a product led growth motion, there isn't a very certain future for you, 41 00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:07.280 unless you have like massive investment from BC, which you know is very possible. 42 00:03:07.319 --> 00:03:09.639 There's still we're doing a bunch of research and there's still tons of money 43 00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:15.960 that's going into early and midstage startups. But the thing about product led growth 44 00:03:15.039 --> 00:03:20.599 is it's also a commitment to having like a customer centric model. Product led 45 00:03:20.639 --> 00:03:24.000 growth forces you to give value to customers so that customers want to buy your 46 00:03:24.039 --> 00:03:30.800 product. Traditional like non PLG be to be enterprise sales. It's really more 47 00:03:30.800 --> 00:03:35.479 about like the strength of your sales force. How good is your sales team? 48 00:03:35.520 --> 00:03:38.199 At convincing somebody that they might need to buy what you're selling, and 49 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:42.719 I think that will there will always be an element of that that exists, 50 00:03:42.719 --> 00:03:46.960 but I think we're seeing in almost every part of the way a person buys 51 00:03:47.159 --> 00:03:53.520 anything that we're shifting more towards self serve. I mean you like the quintessential 52 00:03:53.520 --> 00:03:59.240 direct sales business is like car sales, and even car sales you have these 53 00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:03.199 new startups that are coming in and disrupting, like Carvana, like shift, 54 00:04:03.199 --> 00:04:08.000 who are just saying why bother, they're going to a physical parking lot and 55 00:04:08.120 --> 00:04:12.120 entering into the pain that is haggling when you could just point and click from 56 00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:15.800 the comfort of your computer. And I think that desire to point and click 57 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:19.160 doesn't end with your consumer buying. Like I am also a buyer on the 58 00:04:19.160 --> 00:04:24.240 be to B side. I don't want to buy differently when I'm at work 59 00:04:24.279 --> 00:04:26.600 than when I'm not at work, and now that we work from home, 60 00:04:26.639 --> 00:04:30.879 I'm always in the same place when I'm making these purchases. A good point, 61 00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:35.040 and I definitely think on the be tob side there's so many advantages to 62 00:04:35.279 --> 00:04:41.680 allowing self serve as an option and having all the information ready for people and 63 00:04:41.720 --> 00:04:45.879 then, like we're about to talk about in this hybrid motion, having someone 64 00:04:46.079 --> 00:04:49.519 at the level where you would want it. Maybe it's a certain dollar amount, 65 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:54.279 but for those bigger deals, but having a person that can come alongside 66 00:04:54.279 --> 00:04:59.879 and really create forward momentum at a certain stage. So that's that second group 67 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:02.600 that's truly looking for an effective hybrid approach, and I want to go into 68 00:05:02.600 --> 00:05:08.639 detail there. You've worked in companies with self serve options and traditional sales. 69 00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:12.240 Tell me what some of those tensions are that you've experienced and kind of had 70 00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:17.319 to deal with. Yeah, so my background is I've worked in pretty much 71 00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:21.360 every selling motion from channel to be Toc, to be, Toc to be, 72 00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:27.680 to be to be. Some of those companies include in Vidia, dropbox. 73 00:05:27.720 --> 00:05:31.399 I was on agency side helping playstation and obviously now crunch base and then 74 00:05:31.399 --> 00:05:36.040 sales force as well. See you have kind of like this broad perspective about 75 00:05:36.079 --> 00:05:42.079 how different companies sell. One of the you know, the hard things about 76 00:05:42.120 --> 00:05:46.639 this plg motion is you are asking a lot of people to change the way 77 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:50.560 they think about selling and those those things are ingrained within the company. So 78 00:05:50.759 --> 00:05:55.240 you know, like a sales team is built to take leads and turn those 79 00:05:55.319 --> 00:05:59.240 leads into opportunities and turn those opportunities into revenue. If you all of a 80 00:05:59.319 --> 00:06:01.680 sudden come in and say, okay, I want you to sell completely differently, 81 00:06:02.600 --> 00:06:06.399 there's going to be some tension there because they're their compensation is built on 82 00:06:06.439 --> 00:06:11.600 that model as well and an appealog world. But you're essentially saying is okay, 83 00:06:11.639 --> 00:06:16.560 sales, not every lead is your lead. Only the qualified leads are 84 00:06:16.600 --> 00:06:20.879 your lead, and qualified now has a much more narrower definition than you're used 85 00:06:20.920 --> 00:06:25.079 to, and so what they might feel is, oh my gosh, like 86 00:06:25.160 --> 00:06:28.279 my compensation is threatened, oh my gosh, I'm not going to be able 87 00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:31.040 to hit quota because you're going to be taking customers that I could convert and 88 00:06:31.079 --> 00:06:35.199 just converting them through self. Served that's a very like it's a very real 89 00:06:35.319 --> 00:06:39.439 fear, but it's also an inside out fear. It's a fear that we 90 00:06:39.519 --> 00:06:44.600 created as a result of our incentive structures. So it will require executives that 91 00:06:44.680 --> 00:06:48.879 the company reassessing those incentive structures and helping set targets that are more realistic, 92 00:06:48.879 --> 00:06:55.120 with this idea of a customer who has a bigger ticket possibility or a customer 93 00:06:55.160 --> 00:07:00.000 who has a more sophisticated implementation need. Only those prospects will go to the 94 00:07:00.000 --> 00:07:01.439 sales team because they need to talk to a human being. They won't be 95 00:07:01.519 --> 00:07:04.480 able to do it themselves, or if they do it themselves, they won't 96 00:07:04.480 --> 00:07:10.360 be successful after they convert. So it really it requires change across the entire 97 00:07:10.560 --> 00:07:15.600 organization. Otherwise what ends up happening is inevitably there's like this feeling that your 98 00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:19.680 number one competitor in for your business is your self serf business versus your direct 99 00:07:19.720 --> 00:07:24.399 sales business. And if that's what you're experiencing, that means that there's something 100 00:07:24.439 --> 00:07:29.600 intrinsically wrong with the way the teams are set up. You should have it 101 00:07:29.639 --> 00:07:34.199 be more like the ideal state is sales loves the SELFSERF BUSINESS BECAUSE A it 102 00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:39.079 creates more qualified leads for them. Let's say you have a lower price product. 103 00:07:39.079 --> 00:07:42.360 People convert into that lower price product. That is a signal that people 104 00:07:42.439 --> 00:07:46.759 understand the value of our product. Now sales can just kind of start mining 105 00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:50.839 within the existing customer base for up cell opportunities or, like selfserve, could 106 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:54.480 do a good job of saying, Oh, I'm not able to convert this 107 00:07:54.519 --> 00:07:57.879 person through selfserve. They should talk to a human being. Let me pass 108 00:07:57.920 --> 00:08:01.839 it on. So they've done what maybe a traditional str team can do through 109 00:08:01.839 --> 00:08:07.800 selfserve. So it's kind of like the fear is there change management is required 110 00:08:07.879 --> 00:08:11.879 and it could be like a somewhat help hefty lift. So you've worked in 111 00:08:11.959 --> 00:08:16.560 companies with selfserve options and traditional sales. What are some of those tensions that 112 00:08:16.600 --> 00:08:20.920 you've experienced and had to deal with? Yeah, so I've worked at at 113 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:26.079 several companies that have both of those. Just as a little background, I've 114 00:08:26.120 --> 00:08:30.079 worked for in Vidia, which had more of like a channel sales. I 115 00:08:30.199 --> 00:08:33.399 work for sales force, which is traditional bet to be not much self serve. 116 00:08:33.480 --> 00:08:35.600 I worked for Dropboxx, which you know, are arguably is one of 117 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:41.840 the pioneers of self serf businesses, and now crunch base, which is kind 118 00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:45.240 of like an amalgamation of all of the above. And I think what I've 119 00:08:45.279 --> 00:08:50.039 observed is that if a company is not set up to have a hybrid business, 120 00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:56.480 meaning they're not set up to have selfserve and direct cells live in symbiosis, 121 00:08:56.519 --> 00:09:03.200 like in perfect harmony, they will inevitablely be an internal competition where you 122 00:09:03.240 --> 00:09:05.759 know, if you ask the sales team, they'll say our number one competitor 123 00:09:05.879 --> 00:09:09.039 is our self serve product. If you ask the selfserve team, they'll say, 124 00:09:09.080 --> 00:09:11.960 you know, I don't know why the direct sales team doesn't like us. 125 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:16.799 And you know the reason behind that is because companies were not set up 126 00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:20.879 to have hybrid go to market motions. They're traditionally set up to have direct 127 00:09:20.919 --> 00:09:26.799 sales on the B Tob side and self serve on the consumer side. But 128 00:09:26.279 --> 00:09:30.360 the world is changing, right you know, we just talked about how everybody 129 00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:33.399 really wants to buy in this more selfserve way. We're used to working alone 130 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:39.039 at our own homes or used to making purchases from our desk. And in 131 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:41.600 order for us to be ready for the future, we're going to be ready 132 00:09:41.639 --> 00:09:45.080 to we're going to need to be ready to have these hybrid businesses, and 133 00:09:45.159 --> 00:09:48.360 I think it comes down to incentives, right. Like if a salesperson has 134 00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:52.799 quota, they are going to want to have all the prospects they can in 135 00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:56.200 order to hit that quota. If they're looking at SELFSERV and saying, oh 136 00:09:56.240 --> 00:09:58.600 my gosh, they're taking all of my leads and closing my leads at like 137 00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:01.639 a lower price, they're not going to feel so good about it, because 138 00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:05.159 it's almost like taking food out of their mouths. So I think internally there 139 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:09.919 needs to be some serious change management where we think about what are the right 140 00:10:09.000 --> 00:10:13.919 incentive structures. So rather than closing as many deals as you possibly can then 141 00:10:13.960 --> 00:10:18.720 you hit your quota, it's more close deals that meet the specific criteria that 142 00:10:18.759 --> 00:10:22.879 we figure it out. Makes you more in need of talking to a human 143 00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:28.000 being versus talking, you know, through a chat bought in the product or 144 00:10:28.039 --> 00:10:31.399 just doing everything self serve. So essentially what that would look like is, 145 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:37.039 let's say, if your product has a version that is under tenzero in a 146 00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:41.480 version that is over tenzero, maybe that's not how you divide up self serving 147 00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:43.440 direct cells. You never know, some people may have super high credit card 148 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:48.720 limits. Why would you block them from making that purchase? M But if 149 00:10:48.759 --> 00:10:54.080 your product is really complicated and a person you know, you find through some 150 00:10:54.159 --> 00:10:56.960 of your own research and your own experiments that people who are buying that more 151 00:10:56.960 --> 00:11:03.039 complicated solution, without the help of maybe white glove on boarding or what an 152 00:11:03.039 --> 00:11:07.279 ae or a CSM can provide, you find that their cancelation rates are really 153 00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:09.759 high, then that's a signal that that is something should involve. That should 154 00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:13.879 involve some human interaction, and that's how I would want to shift the businesses 155 00:11:13.879 --> 00:11:18.559 in the future. Don't make the human or interaction be just about deal size. 156 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:22.919 Make the human interaction be about where can I deliver more value to my 157 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:26.600 customer, and that means reassessing the incentive structure for the human beings who are 158 00:11:26.600 --> 00:11:31.919 on the team's yeah, I mean incentive structure is huge. You touched on 159 00:11:31.960 --> 00:11:37.240 segmentation there. So maybe it's not dollar amount, maybe it's complication, any 160 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:41.440 other ways that you see segmenting out the audience so you don't end up in 161 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:46.399 a situation where, internally there's this conflict between direct sales and self served. 162 00:11:46.879 --> 00:11:52.039 It's almost like segmentation without decision is also going to be important, meaning as 163 00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:58.879 a user enters into the byflow or the consideration stage, give them the option 164 00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:01.840 to choose. You know, do you want to talk to a human being, 165 00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:03.799 because we find that there are even some people on the SELFSERF side, 166 00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:07.120 you know, who have the smaller ticket items who just want to ask a 167 00:12:07.240 --> 00:12:11.120 question, like they don't want to be sent to help center, they don't 168 00:12:11.159 --> 00:12:15.799 want to interact with a robot, they want to talk to a human being. 169 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:18.840 So by having the option to talk to human being when someone wants it 170 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:22.120 or having the option to not talk to a human being when they don't. 171 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:26.840 That can really be helpful and the hybrid motion means that you might have a 172 00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:30.279 little bit of both existing at the same time, like so, for crunch 173 00:12:30.279 --> 00:12:35.679 face and example is we're looking at ways to strategically insert chat into the free 174 00:12:35.799 --> 00:12:41.080 user experience where we might see somebody who looks like they're kind of struggling on 175 00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:43.480 a page to figure out how to use the right prospecting tools. You know 176 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:46.519 we rolled out a bunch of new prospecting features. Maybe they don't even know 177 00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:52.240 they exist. By injecting a human being into the experience we might be able 178 00:12:52.279 --> 00:12:54.799 to say, Oh hey, you may not have noticed, but you can 179 00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:56.879 do this thing. It looks like you might be trying to do x action. 180 00:12:56.960 --> 00:13:00.840 Here's how you can do it within the product. So it's really about 181 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:09.480 thinking more again about what the customers experiences and then selectively offering both the human 182 00:13:09.559 --> 00:13:15.200 experience and the SELFSERF experience and letting the customer choose what is right for them. 183 00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:18.480 I think that's extremely smart to give the option of say, Hey, 184 00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:22.960 would you want to talk to somebody and it almost creates like warm leads every 185 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:28.840 time because you actually know that they wanted human interaction at that point. In 186 00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:33.559 this model for crunch based specifically, is self serve meant to be more of 187 00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:37.360 a lead feeder to direct sales or how do you view that? Yeah, 188 00:13:37.399 --> 00:13:39.440 that I mean, I love what you said. It's a warm lead. 189 00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:46.879 What I think about selfserve is it is the ultimate product qualification for for more 190 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:52.840 complex or higher price products, meaning as customers in crunch based come in and 191 00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:56.399 they either become, you know, our selfserve skews are starter or pro. 192 00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:03.000 When they come in a starter or pro crunch based customers, that tells us 193 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:07.039 that they understand the value of crunch base and we can start to observe. 194 00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:09.799 You know, are there many different people at their company who have also become 195 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:13.600 pro customers? That tells us, okay, there's really an opportunity for this 196 00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:18.919 company to have more of, you know, a team's based solution, and 197 00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:22.159 that is a signal that they are ready for our enterprise product, which does 198 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:24.919 require talking to a sales person because there's a little bit more complexity in the 199 00:14:24.919 --> 00:14:28.480 setup, there's a little bit more complexity in the integrations and there's the things 200 00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:33.639 that you can't just do all on your own. So for me it absolutely 201 00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:37.799 is like there are degrees of qualification and one of the highest levels of qualification 202 00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:43.480 you can have is being a healthy, engaged self serve customer. That to 203 00:14:43.480 --> 00:14:46.200 me tells me, okay, you get value and you might get even more 204 00:14:46.279 --> 00:14:52.919 value at our more sophisticated, more advanced skew level. So if you're leaning 205 00:14:52.919 --> 00:14:58.919 heavy into the PLG selfserve model, what do you see as the hiccups being 206 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:05.240 as you kind look to introduce a direct sales motion that that assists? Yeah, 207 00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:09.440 I mean we're pretty lucky in that we've been hybrid almost from the beginning. 208 00:15:09.639 --> 00:15:13.799 Last year we more officially rolled out the higher level software skew. Previously 209 00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:18.639 it was only like a licensing that had direct Celles motion. The last year 210 00:15:18.679 --> 00:15:22.720 we we shifted from self serve only on software to selfserve and direct sales on 211 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:30.320 software, and what's great is that I think there has always been an awareness 212 00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:33.200 for the value of Plog also for direct sales, meaning the way we look 213 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:37.879 at our funnel isn't everybody has to become self serve first before they ever get 214 00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:43.200 to talk to a salesperson. It's more that every single free anonymous visitor to 215 00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:46.960 crunch bascom IE, these are the free users of our product, are fremium 216 00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:50.279 product. Every single one of those people is a prospect and the question is 217 00:15:50.360 --> 00:15:54.440 just which solution is right for them. So it's more about that, like 218 00:15:54.519 --> 00:15:58.840 product qualification out on the free side, and we work really closely with our 219 00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:04.200 sales team to funnel the right leads to them and then if they start talking 220 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:08.080 to a lead who's not qualified for enterprise, they funnel those people back into 221 00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:14.039 selfserve. So we've created this really virtuous cycle where people who aren't ready for 222 00:16:14.200 --> 00:16:18.919 enterprise get disqualified and put back into selfserve. Anonymous visitors who come to the 223 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:22.559 website but meet all the criteria for our enterprise product automatically get funneled over to 224 00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:26.720 our direct sales team. It's kind of like we're just creating this really efficient 225 00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:30.720 what is a good metaphor? It's like a really fial Librarian's pointing you to 226 00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:34.279 the rights back at the right time. That's what we want to have happened 227 00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:37.759 and we want every person to leave the library happy with the book that they 228 00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:41.000 wanted, and that's what we're really trying to do and I think you know, 229 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:45.480 I feel very luckily so. I'm the chief marketing a growth officer. 230 00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:48.960 I have a really close relationship with our chief revenue officer. He is a 231 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:53.960 believer in the value of pelg as a lead generation engine for the direct sales 232 00:16:53.960 --> 00:16:59.399 team and I think that belief and that partnership is really important because then he 233 00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:03.559 enables us to kind of test some of these things which in the short term 234 00:17:03.639 --> 00:17:07.240 might look like are reducing the lead volume but in the long term are leading 235 00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:11.400 to higher ACV deals, faster deal times, more qualified leads. All of 236 00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:15.519 it kind of gets better when you embrace the pelog motion. So you touched 237 00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:18.880 on and I want to circle back to this. One of the things you 238 00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:23.640 got to think through in this model is who, and I want to break 239 00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:30.039 down who that person is in your mind, because there are some specific things 240 00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:33.200 that would be nice to either hire four or look for in a in somebody 241 00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:37.880 that's going to take on a role like this. But if you're kind of 242 00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:41.599 dreaming up your ideal candidate for this assist motion, who are they in your 243 00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:45.920 mind? Yeah, so you're touching on this like the gray area that sits 244 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:51.920 between pure self serve and pure direct sales. We've like, you know, 245 00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:53.839 a dropbox. We called it selfservicest, that crunch base. We're calling it 246 00:17:53.880 --> 00:18:02.680 self servicest and it really is almost like a scaled he human frontline worker force 247 00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:10.000 that is a hybrid of a support person, a sales person and that sort 248 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:14.720 of you know library and traffic cop as well. It's not a traditional salesperson 249 00:18:14.839 --> 00:18:18.880 in the sense that they don't only have one goal. Their goal isn't just 250 00:18:18.920 --> 00:18:22.480 to create revenue. The purpose of this human skilled force is to help a 251 00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:27.319 user find value faster than they might have otherwise, not as not have done 252 00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:32.119 on their own. So it's kind of like really this space in between. 253 00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:34.519 If you have one island that is self serving one island that is direct sales, 254 00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:37.440 it's the ocean in between the two. That's what the Self Service syst 255 00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:41.240 is. Then the people that I would look for there, I mean, 256 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:44.799 because this is a brand new space that people are comfortable with. I think 257 00:18:44.839 --> 00:18:48.400 the first thing is it has to be somebody who is creative, like they're 258 00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:55.000 adaptable to an unusual circumstance where their compensation might be some combination of you know, 259 00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:59.319 revenue quota, as well as things like net promoter score or customer or 260 00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:02.880 sea sat score. So they have to be comfortable with the sort of like 261 00:19:03.079 --> 00:19:07.799 new world. They're forging a new path. They have to be extremely customer 262 00:19:07.880 --> 00:19:11.079 centric. Right they want to see a smile on the other person's face. 263 00:19:11.079 --> 00:19:14.599 I mean they're usually going to be interacting for something like chat or a quick 264 00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:17.119 phone call, so they might not see that face, but they have to 265 00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:19.039 feel the joy in the other person and that joy has to be their number 266 00:19:19.079 --> 00:19:23.160 one motivator. And then they also have to understand, you know, when 267 00:19:23.240 --> 00:19:26.799 is the right time to pass this person off. They might be, you 268 00:19:26.839 --> 00:19:30.079 know, they're trying to deeply understand the other person, deeply understand their use 269 00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:33.960 case and either funnel them back to self serve or funnel them over to the 270 00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:40.160 direct sales team. So it's really about finding like people who have the tenacity 271 00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:45.119 of sales, who have the empathy of CX and who have the kind of 272 00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:49.519 experimentation mindedness of a growth person. And and that's going to be difficult to 273 00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:52.079 find. I'm I'm not saying that's going to be yeah, but if you 274 00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:56.319 can find those people, this is like, in my mind, this is 275 00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:03.400 the future of be to be business. Is being able to create optimal go 276 00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:07.799 to market motions that have the best of self, serve the best of direct 277 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:14.519 sales and then this assist in middle ground so that you keep your CAC low. 278 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:21.599 Hmm, I love the breakdown of what this person's kind of personality is. 279 00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:25.519 In a sense, I wonder, is this someone you hire from within 280 00:20:25.640 --> 00:20:29.759 typically, or are you posting and trying to attract that type of talent? 281 00:20:29.799 --> 00:20:33.680 Like, what do you imagine their work background being? I approach everything that 282 00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:37.240 I do with like an experimentation mindset, where I don't go all in on 283 00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:40.480 something until I have some pretty strong signal that it's worth doubling down. I 284 00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:44.279 think specifically within marketing there's like, you know, I've been talking a lot 285 00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:48.640 about traditional drect sales versus this new sales motion, but within marketing there's like 286 00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:52.559 traditional marketing where you just you know, you've got the mad men experience where 287 00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:55.440 they come into a room, they come up with an idea and then they 288 00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:59.240 put millions of dollars behind it. Like those days are over. It's more 289 00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:02.880 about now I have a hypothesis. If I do x, then why will 290 00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:07.359 happen? I have a test in which I can validate or invalidate that hypothesis 291 00:21:07.400 --> 00:21:11.359 and then once they prove that a hypothesis is true or see that a hypothesis 292 00:21:11.480 --> 00:21:14.359 is true, then I double down. I think the same thing is true 293 00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:18.279 for this self services motion. It may not be the right thing for every 294 00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:22.039 single company. So I think the way that people should approach it is from 295 00:21:22.039 --> 00:21:26.160 an experiment standpoint. I definitely would start with internal people. I would look 296 00:21:26.200 --> 00:21:30.880 within like the CX team, anybody who's eager to, you know, move 297 00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:34.519 up and out of the CX team. Maybe within the sales organization, any 298 00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:38.000 sales managers who are, you know, seeing what's happening of the selfserfside and 299 00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:41.759 or kind of interested in the speed. They want to try something new, 300 00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:45.640 and I would bring those people over and say hey, we want to have 301 00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:48.799 almost like a start up within a startup. Are you interested in building this 302 00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:52.920 new thing and help have help them set up these experiments to see does having 303 00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:59.240 an assisted motion either shorten the time to close? Does it increase the rate 304 00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:02.640 of trial starts or the increase the volume of leads that are generated? Does 305 00:22:02.680 --> 00:22:06.400 it increase the ACV? Does it improve the conversion rate? Like like you 306 00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:11.519 pick a stage and you see if the assisted motion improves that stage, and 307 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:15.079 what's confirm whether it does or doesn't. Then you decide whether you want to 308 00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:19.519 scale the team. So yes, I would absolutely start internally if you see 309 00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:23.400 that it can't help you the scaling of that team. I think because you 310 00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:27.720 need so many people, you might find that having, you know, being 311 00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:32.640 able to recruit from with in is a little challenging. I've seen it work 312 00:22:32.680 --> 00:22:38.079 where you partner with a third party, like outsourced team folks who are comfortable 313 00:22:38.119 --> 00:22:41.720 dealing with a high volume of chats, let's say, and they can help 314 00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:47.720 you achieve that more expansive frontline workforce. But again, you probably want to 315 00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:52.240 have people internally who validate and come up with best practices that you then train 316 00:22:52.359 --> 00:22:55.799 the external team zone. Yeah, you just touch on something I want to 317 00:22:56.119 --> 00:22:59.559 ask a follow up on, because, let's say you run this test great 318 00:22:59.640 --> 00:23:03.480 self servicest it works for us, we want to expand the team. Now 319 00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:07.960 you have this training and education that's needed and sort of required. So what 320 00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:12.039 have you guys implemented to to train up this team and what do you think 321 00:23:12.039 --> 00:23:17.200 it's important there? So, at crunch face, we're in the phase of 322 00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:25.039 experimenting whether the Self Services Motion can help to capture revenue from disqualified under put 323 00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:29.240 prize leads that otherwise might not have turned into anything. HMM. And we 324 00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:33.039 validated it right, like we took what would have been zero dollars and we've 325 00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:37.920 turned it into tens of thousands of dollars, and those leads are now also 326 00:23:37.960 --> 00:23:41.920 pre qualified for future enterprise expansion. So we validated that part of our funnel. 327 00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:47.319 The next step is to now validate the Presale, like the almost more 328 00:23:47.319 --> 00:23:52.319 traditional self serve part of the funnel, and we're doing that in combination with 329 00:23:52.359 --> 00:23:56.680 like expanding where we offer chat and increasing the amount of time that we're sort 330 00:23:56.680 --> 00:24:02.599 of borrowing time from our Stur team of an incredible SDR manager who's just so, 331 00:24:02.599 --> 00:24:04.960 so great to partner with and he's been really generous and letting US carve 332 00:24:06.039 --> 00:24:10.599 sometime from the strs to test these different stages of the funnel. I think 333 00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:14.319 we are seeing, though, that, like, the needs of experimentation are 334 00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:19.559 so great, while the SDR teams quotas for their traditional selling are also high. 335 00:24:19.559 --> 00:24:23.599 So I think we're butting up against the limit of how much the internal 336 00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:26.960 team can handle as so we're beginning to think about where we might scale from 337 00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:30.480 there. At drop box, you know, there's a more sophisticated program at 338 00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:37.440 dropbox we had a very large external scaled sales force. Internal teams acted as 339 00:24:37.480 --> 00:24:42.039 kind of like the sales managers to those teams. I on the marketing side 340 00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:48.680 acted as the lead generation engine for those SSA teams of self services teams. 341 00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:52.359 They acted as the the kind of quick turnaround and or lead qualification for higher 342 00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:59.160 order skews. It was a super successful model and I think the challenge that 343 00:24:59.240 --> 00:25:03.559 dropbox had was it was such a successful model that they had not even anticipated 344 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:07.440 how much they would get from it and I think that kind of set off 345 00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:11.000 some of those red flags we talked about earlier for the direct sales teams who 346 00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:14.359 handled more of the large named account sizes, and so you know, we 347 00:25:14.359 --> 00:25:19.000 had to work through some of those tensions to identify what are the mutual exclusive 348 00:25:19.079 --> 00:25:23.400 swim lanes so that we're not fighting each other. HMM. Okay, so 349 00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:29.680 last follow up question on this and getting a little bit more specific on compensation, 350 00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:33.480 because I think of the WHO here and depending on what their background is, 351 00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:37.039 if they come from traditional sales, you're going to have a different conversation 352 00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:42.000 than maybe someone that comes from customer experience or customer service. So how do 353 00:25:42.039 --> 00:25:48.759 you compensate for a role like this? The self surfacest roll, anything that 354 00:25:48.759 --> 00:25:52.640 we should watch out for when we when we think about that, I think 355 00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:56.759 it depends on where you are in the like level of sophistication of your self 356 00:25:56.839 --> 00:26:00.880 services program. So while you're in the experiment phase, I would not use 357 00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:10.079 a quota based compensation because the quota like people will always optimize their behavior for 358 00:26:10.119 --> 00:26:15.480 the quota because they're trying to get paid, whereas in experiment the optimization should 359 00:26:15.480 --> 00:26:21.039 be do I trust the outcome of the experiment that I just ran? Like, 360 00:26:21.079 --> 00:26:23.240 do I believe the outcome, because that outcome is going to inform what 361 00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:26.759 my next steps are, and so I don't want to gain the system, 362 00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:30.759 as it were, with something like quota. So I think to start you 363 00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:34.759 probably want more of like a non quota based compensation, but you know, 364 00:26:34.839 --> 00:26:37.880 like in our case, if we're borrowing time from SDRs, that that might 365 00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:41.839 not be possible. So it just depends on where you're pulling. If you're 366 00:26:41.839 --> 00:26:45.039 pulling from CX, it's a little bit easier. When you get more sophisticated. 367 00:26:45.079 --> 00:26:48.559 At that point my assumption is you kind of know what self servicest is 368 00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:52.559 good at, so you can start to put some quotas in place. But 369 00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:55.880 your quote is may not be all revenue related. So, for example, 370 00:26:55.920 --> 00:27:00.440 if you're putting self servicest early on in the life cycle, so let's say 371 00:27:00.440 --> 00:27:03.960 people who are just landing on your website for the first time and they're giving 372 00:27:03.960 --> 00:27:10.039 something a try, your quotea there might be successful completions of specific high value 373 00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:14.119 actions in the product. Like have you helped more people tried that one feature 374 00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:19.000 that you know is highly correlated with customer satisfaction? And then middle life cycle 375 00:27:19.039 --> 00:27:22.200 it might be more correlated. Are you getting more people to start a trial 376 00:27:22.440 --> 00:27:26.720 or after that, are you getting more people to convert their trial? Convert 377 00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:30.920 the trial with more seats in their checkout, convert with more add ons? 378 00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:33.359 Are you getting more of the new customers to activate on the high value actions? 379 00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:37.480 You see what I'm saying? So like it really the the incentive depends 380 00:27:37.519 --> 00:27:44.880 on where you're putting the SSA motion and I think that incentive also depends on 381 00:27:44.920 --> 00:27:48.240 what your experiments have told you are like the ideal outcomes. I love the 382 00:27:48.279 --> 00:27:53.160 explanation. I think there's so many potential ways you could utilize a self servicest 383 00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:56.599 motion. I wonder for you, now that you've run these experiments, you've 384 00:27:56.599 --> 00:28:00.519 seen it in a couple different contexts, if we were to drop you in 385 00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:06.319 a new company somewhere else and they have a plg motion but they haven't built 386 00:28:06.359 --> 00:28:10.079 this out yet, where do you start? What are those first conversations you're 387 00:28:10.119 --> 00:28:14.119 having and maybe where are you? What are you looking for? You know, 388 00:28:14.200 --> 00:28:18.039 I think I approach my internal change management the same way I approach go 389 00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:21.759 to market, which is I would do a top down and a bottoms up 390 00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:27.400 the campaign. The top down is I would need the CEO and the crow 391 00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:37.319 and the C foe to all understand the opportunity and also the missed opportunity if 392 00:28:37.359 --> 00:28:41.839 you don't try this. So you know, this would be about showing the 393 00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:47.759 impact on LTV TO CAC. It would show the impact on the a TV, 394 00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:52.119 the also again, the LTV of the customer. So this would be 395 00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:53.720 more about showing them, Hey, if we were to do this and it 396 00:28:53.720 --> 00:28:57.759 would be successful, here's what we could gain if we don't do this. 397 00:28:57.799 --> 00:29:02.279 As we continue scaling and you have to, you know, keep adding more 398 00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:04.799 and more sales people in order to grow. This is what you're missing, 399 00:29:04.839 --> 00:29:07.880 these are the efficiency losses that you're going to have. So I'd be the 400 00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:11.160 first thing, like you, get the executives to understand the business impact, 401 00:29:11.240 --> 00:29:15.119 the value of it to the business, because once they see that there and 402 00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:18.680 again, it's all typed incentives, they're incentivized to say, okay, I 403 00:29:18.680 --> 00:29:22.200 want to help see this happen, because if we improve the overall uneconomics of 404 00:29:22.200 --> 00:29:25.799 our company a it might make us look more attractive to investors, be and 405 00:29:25.880 --> 00:29:30.079 might get us to profitability faster. You know, all the things that executives 406 00:29:30.119 --> 00:29:33.960 care about. Bottoms up, it would be more about, you know, 407 00:29:34.519 --> 00:29:41.319 understanding how are the reps being compensated today, understanding what the growth team looks 408 00:29:41.359 --> 00:29:45.680 like today, seeing if any of those tensions exist already or if they like 409 00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:51.400 completely operate in Stilo. So we're really duplicating efforts for them. It would 410 00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:55.839 be more about like how can I get you to your target outcome faster? 411 00:29:55.880 --> 00:29:57.440 Like you know, you kind of see the theme here, and everything I'm 412 00:29:57.480 --> 00:30:00.720 doing is understand what value is to the person I'm speaking to, Yep, 413 00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:04.599 and then help them see how what what we want to try is valuable to 414 00:30:04.680 --> 00:30:11.880 them. Spoken like a true marketer, you know, like in my mind 415 00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:15.160 I am about a vessel right, like it's no skin off my back if 416 00:30:15.160 --> 00:30:18.599 you choose one way or the other. But for you, you the executive, 417 00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:23.319 or you the individual rep you could be making more money. It just 418 00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:27.440 means that you have to be comfortable changing from the old way of doing things 419 00:30:27.480 --> 00:30:32.400 and embracing a potentially new way of doing things. HMM. Yeah, think 420 00:30:32.440 --> 00:30:33.880 about it, like how much money are you leaving on the table between where 421 00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:37.799 self serve drops off and sales picks up? Like that's a big question. 422 00:30:38.319 --> 00:30:44.480 It's valuable to those that are in the sea suite and having these conversations about 423 00:30:44.519 --> 00:30:48.480 lifetime value and the gain that's there. What are we missing? I mean 424 00:30:48.519 --> 00:30:51.559 those are the the crucial conversations that, I think lead you to a place 425 00:30:51.599 --> 00:30:56.200 where man self services could really be a game changer for your business. Anything 426 00:30:56.240 --> 00:31:00.319 you want to add here as we start to wrap up? Love this conversation. 427 00:31:00.599 --> 00:31:03.079 Yeah, I mean I think you kind of touched on the the metrics 428 00:31:03.079 --> 00:31:06.440 that are valuable to a business. I think if you talk to any investor, 429 00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:10.559 so let's say like your target audiences is startups, they care about what 430 00:31:10.599 --> 00:31:15.640 investors care about one of the number one key performance indicators that investors care about 431 00:31:15.799 --> 00:31:19.839 is net dollar attention. The kind of like ingredients of net dollar attention are 432 00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:23.720 one. What is your rate of upsell of existing customers to? What is 433 00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:29.559 your rate of revenue retention of existing customers, like how many people are turning 434 00:31:29.640 --> 00:31:33.480 versus not? When you think about what self services can do, let's say 435 00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:37.799 you have a super high dollar product and people are ready to turn. Well, 436 00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:41.880 rather than the logo leaving completely, what if you just downgrade at them 437 00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:45.400 to a lower a lower cost product? This is what self services can do. 438 00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:48.759 It can be part of your off boarding process. So, rather than 439 00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:52.279 a full on see you later, we'll never work together again, I'll say, 440 00:31:52.279 --> 00:31:55.119 okay, I understand you're not getting as much value as you would see 441 00:31:55.119 --> 00:31:57.319 for this price on the high value product. Let me introduce you to this 442 00:31:57.319 --> 00:32:00.759 lower value product that you can actually check out with your credit card. That 443 00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:06.039 logo stays a part of your portfolio, so you have no logo laws. 444 00:32:06.079 --> 00:32:09.319 That helps with the net dollar attention. Going the more optimistic route, let's 445 00:32:09.319 --> 00:32:14.279 say you have a bunch of self serve customers. If you could get even 446 00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:19.880 one ten of those selfserf customers to upgrade into your enterprise product with the help 447 00:32:20.039 --> 00:32:23.440 of, you know, these self services, people almost being like temperature checks 448 00:32:23.480 --> 00:32:28.759 or thermometers to see where there's hot spots. You could, you know, 449 00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:31.880 double your net dollar attention, because you're seeing these customers go from a hundred 450 00:32:31.880 --> 00:32:37.680 dollar product to a thousand to Tenzero to twentyzero product. There's a ton of 451 00:32:37.799 --> 00:32:40.359 value. And then, I think, to your point, there's the well, 452 00:32:40.359 --> 00:32:44.119 what about the people who were never going to be any money and we 453 00:32:44.119 --> 00:32:46.200 turn them into some money. So it's either like don't leave money on the 454 00:32:46.200 --> 00:32:50.640 table that could be more and don't leave money on the table that could have 455 00:32:50.680 --> 00:32:53.440 been zero, but you turn it into at least one. So it's really 456 00:32:53.559 --> 00:32:59.480 like just think about where people are falling out of your funnel and how a 457 00:32:59.559 --> 00:33:04.160 person who has the profile of this hybrid cx and sales could help you not 458 00:33:04.279 --> 00:33:07.559 lose those people in your funnel. I love how we've described this role in 459 00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:13.759 this episode. Well, you've described support, sales, traffic cop thermometer and 460 00:33:13.799 --> 00:33:16.599 now I love I love all of those descriptions. I think it fits it 461 00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:21.680 so well. In Library and library, a library and of the list. 462 00:33:21.960 --> 00:33:24.680 Fantastic. Thank you for breaking this down for us. Tell us a little 463 00:33:24.680 --> 00:33:28.440 bit about crunch based here as we closed. And then also, where can 464 00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:32.680 people stay connected with you? Yeah, so crunchbace is really a prospecting solution. 465 00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:37.000 If you're a deal maker, whether that's a salesperson, a recruiter and 466 00:33:37.079 --> 00:33:40.759 investor, a startup founder, if you're looking to connect with other companies that 467 00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:45.440 have, you know, buying power and are growing, you really want to 468 00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:49.279 start with crunch based. It's an account based prospecting tool. We've got all 469 00:33:49.279 --> 00:33:53.160 the best data about high growth SMB's, tons of signals like traffic growth, 470 00:33:53.160 --> 00:33:58.240 employee growth, by our readiness. It's a great place to start. We've 471 00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:00.559 got an incredible free product at crunch bascom. And then, like we've talked 472 00:34:00.599 --> 00:34:04.200 about, we've got solutions all the way from the low end up to the 473 00:34:04.200 --> 00:34:07.039 super high end. So you can find what you're looking for there. In 474 00:34:07.159 --> 00:34:12.079 terms of staying in touch with me, I'm on Linkedin Shinny Benzer, I 475 00:34:12.079 --> 00:34:15.320 believe it's in spenser. I'm also on twitter, though I mainly talk about 476 00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:21.599 TV on twitter and I'm happy to stay connected with whoever's interested. Well, 477 00:34:21.639 --> 00:34:24.800 Shenny, we're so glad to have you on this episode. And there's some 478 00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:30.559 really practical things coming out of this one that I think people can walk away 479 00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:34.360 with, and I love the breakdown of this self servicest. Thank you for 480 00:34:34.519 --> 00:34:37.079 spending time with us here on B tob growth today. Thanks for having me, 481 00:34:37.559 --> 00:34:42.480 thanks for checking out another episode of B Tob Growth, and I want 482 00:34:42.480 --> 00:34:45.559 to just say if you haven't subscribed to the show yet, be sure to 483 00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:50.719 do that on your favorite podcast player. We're always grateful for a rating review 484 00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:54.079 over there as well, and I will be back real soon with another episode. 485 00:34:54.199 --> 00:35:09.280 Keep doing work that matters. If you enjoyed a day show, hit 486 00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:14.360 subscribe for more marketing goodness, and if you really enjoyed today show, take 487 00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:17.280 a second to rate and review the podcast on the platform you're listening to it 488 00:35:17.360 --> 00:35:22.480 on right now. If you really really enjoyed this episode, share the love 489 00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:25.079 by texting it to a friend who would find it insightful. Thanks for listening 490 00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:29.679 and thanks for sharing.