Transcript
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accelerating value by proof analytics
is the podcast for marketing,
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communications, sales and operations
leaders who want to see their business
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value clearly and succeed, learn how
leaders are closing the gap between
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creative work and business impact
through raw conversations. Don't
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believe me. Check out the show for
yourself from the CFO perspective it's
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value is what type of revenue
generation earnings cash flow that is
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only adding to the growth of the, of
the enterprise. You know, another
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dimension would be how our margins
performing are we, you know, we're
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getting the right value by seeing
margin expansion by creating products,
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services that are generating, you know
that incremental value to the
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organization and I think from my lens,
you know that it's monetary in many
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dimensions, right? It's not, you know,
thinking about okay, what say from an
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employee perspective, other
perspectives, but as a leader, as the
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finance leader, as you're looking to
grow the revenue earnings and cash flow
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of an organization, it will only create
more opportunities for your employees,
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for your suppliers, for your customers
based on those services that you're
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creating. So to me that's how I view to
be valued for more subscribe to the
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show wherever you listen to podcasts.
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This is B two B growth Benji block here,
your host and I'm joined by three men,
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I really respect and learn a lot from
regularly excited to dive in today. We
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have James are sweet fish ceo. Welcome
into the show James. Hello, Hello dan
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Sanchez, head of audience growth dan,
Welcome into B two B growth. Thanks for
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having me and rex rex VP of revenue rex,
thanks for for jumping on here, ready
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to go excited to be here. Okay, so
here's why we're all here today, here's
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what I want to jump into. I've invited
the three of you on to discuss content,
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specifically a phrase that if you're
familiar with some of what's being
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posted on linkedin, we're talking a lot
about this, but commodity content James,
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this is something you've been really
passionate about, you're talking about
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it frequently, so I'll give you kind of
first step back here to get us started
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when I say commodity content. What's
the first thing that comes to your mind?
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Yeah, so I think the first thing that
comes to mind quite frankly is a lot of
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content that I've been guilty of
publishing in the past. I mean it's
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it's content that is produced to hit a
quota or a checklist. It's content that
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doesn't have a strong point of view.
It's content that really doesn't have,
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it doesn't have personality, it doesn't
actually try to engage a human on the
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other side of it. It's been written for
an algorithm and so as we've been
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thinking a lot the last 6 to 8 months
around, you know, sweet fishes
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narrative. What's our story, You can't
develop your brand story without first
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figuring out who your enemy is and I've
struggled with this, I mean we've,
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we've gone back and forth a million
times, like I remember dan, I mean when
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dan was leading marketing a few months
ago, we've had some internal kind of
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like reorg recently, but like I
remember having this conversation with
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dan a few months ago and it was like,
is our enemy, what was it then? It was
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like people changing their mind all the
time, that's being scattered. Like
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we've been all over the map with what
is the actual enemy that we're trying
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to fight. And a few months ago, it was
maybe a month ago, it just became
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really obvious to me, we've been I've
been consuming a lot of content from J
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Kenzo and I've heard him talk about
this idea of transformational versus
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transactional content. And as we were,
I was like, okay, there's something
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there, it's like so much content is
transactional, how do we? And so we
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started playing with that a little bit
and like, okay, what is it? Is
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transactional content or enemy? No, but
you don't really know what that means
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when you say it, it was like, what
about commodity content? And then it it
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kind of clicked into place and as I've
been talking about on linkedin, if I'm
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being honest, I thought that I would
get better engagement. Talking about it
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on linkedin, it's been okay, it's been
decent, but the people that have
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engaged and commented on the, on the
stuff that on my posts, talking about
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it had a visceral reaction to it. So it
makes me think like, okay, we're on,
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we're on to something here because it's
deeply resonating with people, you know,
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that something's popped whenever you
write about something on linkedin and
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over the next few days, you hear other
people using the phrase and talking
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about it in their content. And that
happened as soon as I started talking
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about commodity content. So I feel like
we're starting to strike a nerve. It
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just, we, we need to, we need to be a
little bit more consistent talk about
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it a little bit more um to see like is
this an enemy that that we can rally
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people around because it's certainly
something we're against. But it's a
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whole, another question to decide, like,
is this the enemy that we build in our
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story. And I think it might be dan.
Where as you were part of these
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discussions like the last few months
and then rex will, you know, you and I
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are kind of the newbies here, but so
dan, like where have you seen this?
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Especially in the B two B space?
Because it feels like it's prevalent
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everywhere, right? I mean, it's in
every single channel because in every
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channel there's a marketer trying to
game the system, right? And everywhere
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where you see a market or trying to
gain the system without actually
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thinking about what people freaking
want and what would be the most helpful
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to them. You're going to have commodity
content, Benji, you just ran a marathon,
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Let me give you the ultimate example of
commodity content to a marathon runner.
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I'm sure you ran across some,
especially doing searches for how to
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run a good marathon time or how to run
my first marathon. If you got two
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elliptical and the first answer was
drink water, How helpful is that to you?
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How about 10 list tickles in a row,
right? And they all say like, oh yeah,
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drink water and you're like, no
freaking duh, I'm gonna drink some
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water. I'm running a marathon. How
about something that is actually
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helpful, but the drink water thing and
it'll give like 10 more things that are
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just kind of like, duh, like, have you
ever gone and googled like creative
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dates with your wife and gotten a list
of like go to a ceramic shop and throw
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a pot together. You're like, like, it's
the same stuff every freaking time.
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It's commodity content. It's literally
being produced for the sake of ranking
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without actually having a unique thing,
without actually getting good content.
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Now. At one point it wasn't commodity
content, right? No commodity start as
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commodity at one point, this was legit,
but like, I just changed the batteries
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in my keyboard. Battery's probably used
to be really cool. But nowadays I got
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this from all the, and it's like an off
branded battery. It's a double A. It's
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a commodity, double A. Is a double A. I
don't care what brands on it. They all
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work about the same, it's a commodity,
it's everywhere. It's dispensable and
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that's the same way it's gone with most
content. Yeah. What you said there for
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the sake of ranking, I think that's
like a big contributing factor to a lot
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of the content. It's just like, is it
long enough? And I think there's just
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so much that goes into, we want to rank
higher rex was some of the other stuff
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that you're seeing maybe more from like
this marketing angle where you're like,
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man, we are so guilty of commodity
content, not maybe not just to fish,
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but like in general, because I know you
see it all the time. Yeah, I mean every,
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every company I've joined, there's been
some level of that, right. We've been
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trying to accomplish this for the right
reasons and kind of the wrong reasons.
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I think every marketer at some point in
our career has been guilty of this, but
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also I think we can all agree that
nobody wanted to do this. We didn't set
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out like I don't open my laptop in the
morning and hope to write garbage that
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no one's going to pay attention to,
right? That's not, that's not what I
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wish for, it's not what little boys and
girls dream of when they say they want
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to be a marketer one day, that's not
the goal. I see this all over. I think
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google searches like a really big one
because you know, we think that the
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algorithm is telling us to hit a
certain checklist. But really what
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google hopes is that it's producing the
best content first. Unfortunately, I've
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worked with agencies in the past and I
posted about this on linkedin. I feel
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really passionately that the challenge
with outsourcing most of your content
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is that what they're gonna do is go
search for all of your competitors who
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are already ranking or people who are
competing for those key terms and
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they're going to mash up all those
ideas and they're just going to
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reorganize them. They're going to
reorder that content, they're not doing
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anything unique. Had a bad experience
with this. When I was running marketing
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at my second startup, we worked with an
agency, they picked a key topic that we
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wanted to go after several keywords,
downloaded all the articles. I could
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see the work happening in google docs.
They reordered it and when I read the
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output, they said, hey, are we good to
publish this? And I said absolutely not.
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You cannot, it doesn't speak to
anything unique about our brand and we
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have very specific takes, we had a very
clear voice when you saw us talk on
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social, but if we were going to write a
blog article that captures traffic and
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then people weren't gonna learn
anything about us by reading our blog.
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What was I hoping for? What's what's
the best possible outcome there that we
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tricked them into looking at something
else from us and this should be where
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they feel that they identify with us is
in our content. So this happens all the
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time, agencies are commonly guilty of
this because it's the fastest way to
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produce that content. It's the easiest
way to rank, but it doesn't represent
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the brand behind it, it doesn't create
anything unique of value. I think so
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many marketers, Benji are so focused on
how do I get someone's attention and so
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I can get somebody's attention if they
search for this thing in google and I'm
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the first article that pops up, but
then they don't think I've been guilty
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of this. You're like, okay, mission
accomplished job is done. I got their
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attention. I ranked first, they clicked
on the article and it's baffling to me
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how idiotic that thinking is. And I'm
calling myself an idiot here. I've
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literally done this where I'm like, oh
that's not actually winning, like what
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is the impression they have of you
after consuming that piece of garbage
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that you just optimized to rank their
or like I know we're talking a lot
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about google search, It applies to
linkedin to like you can optimize
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around how to write a brilliant hook or
a headline in linkedin and you can, you
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can get a lot of people to click see
more in the linkedin feed and then your
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content says the exact same crap that
everybody else is talking about and
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that's now the impression you've left
on somebody is ah this isn't good, this
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didn't change my thinking. It didn't
make me even think remotely differently
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about anything about my work and that's
freaking hard man, because like, we're
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getting preached at by all of these
thought leaders that we have to create
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lots of content, you gotta stay in
front of your people, you gotta build
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personal brands for your team and they
got to stay in front of everybody. And
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so there's this tension between, like,
I have to stay in front of everybody
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all the time and I know I've, I've
struggled with it, like I'm running out
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of ship to say like, I don't know what
else to say, like I'm over here doing
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my thing and it's working, but you can
only, like, you talk about that so many
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times and it doesn't keep resonating.
And so the thing, the big unlock for me
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that's been massive this year is, you
know, consuming a lot of jake Kenzo's
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content and his whole approach to
developing, you know, content that's
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not a commodity is asking more
intriguing questions and because there
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are endless numbers of questions that
we can ask as brands and there are
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endless ways that we can go about, like
taking our audience on a journey to
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find answers to those questions. He did
a podcast. It might be one of my
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favorite podcast episodes of all time
on his show. Unthinkable And it was an
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episode called Leaving Expert Bill and
he talks to someone john Bernini who
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has actually become a good friend over
over linkedin, I say good friend, I
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mean a good, a good digital friend, I
think a few of us have been on his
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podcast, I'm sure we've had him on GDP
growth in the past, but anyway, he was
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talking to john and john was basically
lamenting about this point of like
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john's content is very tactical, it's
like very like related to content
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marketing and he was like, I'm running
out of stuff to say and through this
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dialogue, J was basically walking him
through well, like what if you just
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started asking more intriguing
questions. And instead of positioning
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yourself as like I have the answer,
I've made it to the top of the mountain
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and I know the answer and the reason
the episode was called Leaving Expert
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veils because so much, so much of the
time we're trying to portray ourselves
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as experts as opposed to trying to lead
an audience on a journey that we don't
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know the answer to yet. And I just
think that's a fascinating way to flip
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content on its head. I think there's
endless potential in that approach in
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that episode, J talks about a story
about a guy his name is Andrew, I'm
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blanking on his last name, he's a
public speaker, but right after like
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right after the pandemic Hit Andrew
started, you know, seeing everybody
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talk about, we've got to get back to
business as usual. We got to get back
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to business as usual. We've got to get
back to business as usual. And Andrew
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asked a simple question, what does that
even mean? Like, do we want to get back
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to business as usual? Like, is that
something we should aspire to? Not
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saying we shouldn't, but I don't know.
Let's go on an exploit to figure that
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out. I'd be curious to hear your
thoughts down because your approach to
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content creation is very much from it.
Like be a student. So I don't know.
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What are your thoughts around all this
stuff. That one podcast you mentioned,
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everybody in this listening to this
episode needs to go and listen to that
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J Kenzo episode, Leaving Expert Bill,
It changed me plus one to that in the
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best way possible. I was like, he's
right. And I actually think it's it's
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ahead of the curve. I actually think
there's still actually there's room for
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expert ville. Like we should leave
expert Bill, but I think like jay is
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playing a couple moves ahead of where
most people are. And I actually still
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think like, like search for example,
google is primarily dominated with
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articles that are not written by the
experts. They are written by writers
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who did an hour or two of research
scraped that did the best they could
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And good for them and wrote an article
in five and 8 hours. But like they're
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not even written by experts yet a lot
of times, right? Or if they are they
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had they only had 500 words to get it
out on a Forbes article. Right? And of
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course it can't be median in depth. So
like there's still a lot of room for
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good expertise, but in places like
social less so in places like social
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and podcasting and even in some in a
lot of niches in Youtube, it's
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saturated like there's plenty of good
answers there. So this is the next wave,
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this is the next generation. I still
think it's going to take a couple of
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years to actually play out. So jay's
thinking is well well ahead of
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everybody else. I want to ask the
following questions walk me through
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when you say like ask better questions.
What does that look like for your
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content creation because like I've also
seen, I mean, people try the question
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like, well just pose a crappy question
to be honest as a way of engagement.
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But you're saying use questions and and
develop really intriguing questions and
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then what are you writing long form
content based on that? Are you posing
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those questions to your audience?
What's the type of like back and forth
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that you guys think is going to develop
from from that framework. That's a
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great question. My immediate two cents
on it is I think you build your content
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strategy at a high level around like,
okay, our, our live events, we're going
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to be taking people on this journey and
asking these questions are pillar
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content. So like the episode we're
doing right now, like, let's start
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regularly talking about questions,
intriguing questions that we don't know
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the answers to yet. Like how the hell
do you create commodity content, not
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create commodity content when you have
to create content all the time? Like,
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you know, there's so much, there's so
much desire for attention right now and
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to get that attention with everything
else, like screaming at you, where is
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that? And I don't know the answer to
that question, We haven't figured it
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out yet. There's still a lot of people
that don't know about sweet fish media.
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And so I think like talking about it in
your pillar content, letting that
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pillar content then shape the micro
content that comes out of it, which
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turns into the content that your team
is sharing on linkedin. So I think
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that's the flow of it, is you have long
term kind of pillar content channels,
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whether it's a live event, you do once
a week, whether it's something like
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this, where it's like, hey we know two
or three days a week, the three of us
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are going to jump on a podcast and and
talk about one of these concepts and
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then I think as you explore, way more
content comes out of that because you
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start asking these other kind of these
other questions that come up, I don't
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know, what do you think we should do?
So that's, that's my take rex. It's
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almost an ideation, it's an ideation
session. Like that's where it was like,
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it's going like we're not, we're all
saying this is stuff that we can try
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right. Like let's all ask our best
question and see where that question
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leads, which I think is super
intriguing rex. What are your thoughts?
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Yeah. So I went through an interesting
transition professionally for a long
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time. I co authored a book about
outbound sales. Like I, all my content
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on linkedin was about outbound sales or
sales in general. And I felt a draw
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towards talking about marketing. My
last company, we targeted marketers,
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but I also love marketing. I wanted to
talk about it but I felt a lot of
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pressure to be an expert and guys, I'm
not an expert. Like I didn't, I didn't
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walk into my first marketing leadership
role, knowing everything about
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everything about marketing and I don't
think I'll leave my very last role in
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marketing knowing everything about
marketing. So I felt all this this
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pressure. But recently instead of
worrying about asking the very best
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questions I've been asking some
questions I've been more willing to
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admit. Like, hey, I don't actually know
but what James mentioned and what we're
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talking about the questions lead to
more questions and those are such
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interesting. The second layer of
questions are really interesting. So
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recently I posted on linkedin, like,
hey, what's what's your favorite gift
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you've ever received from a vendor dan
had this incredible answer. And it
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brings up 100 different questions about
how do we think about interacting with
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other businesses and people and
businesses and how do we think about
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the relationships that we have with
vendors and what we call them and how
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we relate to them. Like that's powerful.
And then on the other side it was I
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said don't mention anything that's got
somebody's logo on it because in my
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head I was thinking that's just garbage.
But in reality there are people who
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mentioned it because that was their
favorite gift. It's like, okay, well
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then the question is, why do I feel so
strongly about branded gifts and what's
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the right variation of that or who's
the right target audience for that that
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would enjoy? And there's, I mean I
could go layers, layers, layers, deeper
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And that's been a powerful experience
for me because I don't have to pretend
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to know the answer and give them the
five best gifts you can use this year
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or hey, you're 2022 plan isn't complete
without these 10 tips. I don't have to
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do it. I don't have to know it and
people relate my content to marketing
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and they're having more conversations
with me about marketing and they're
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more willing to be open in sharing
thoughts and advice and strategies
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about marketing, which makes me a
better marketer. And it makes the
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people who follow my content enjoy the
comments and learn a ton more than if I
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was just always putting the only idea I
had about that question. Hey everyone
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Emily brady with sweet fish here. If
you've been listening to B two B growth
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00:20:51.030 --> 00:20:54.170
for a while, you know, we are big
proponents of putting out original
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00:20:54.170 --> 00:20:57.830
organic content on linkedin. But one
thing that has always been a struggle
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for a team like ours is easily tracking
the reach of that linkedin content.
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That is why we are really excited about
Shield analytics. Since our team
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00:21:05.220 --> 00:21:08.170
started using Shield, we've been able
to easily track the reach and
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00:21:08.170 --> 00:21:11.480
performance of our linkedin content
without having to manually log it
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00:21:11.480 --> 00:21:15.200
ourselves. It automatically creates
reports and generates dashboards that
286
00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:18.370
are incredibly useful to determining
things like what content has been
287
00:21:18.370 --> 00:21:21.740
performing the best, what days of the
week we're getting the most engagement
288
00:21:21.750 --> 00:21:25.520
and our average views proposed shield
has been a game changer for our entire
289
00:21:25.520 --> 00:21:29.550
team's productivity and performance on
linkedin. I highly suggest checking out
290
00:21:29.550 --> 00:21:32.670
this tool. If you're publishing content
on linkedin for yourself or your
291
00:21:32.670 --> 00:21:37.070
company, you can get a 10 day free
trial at shield app dot ai or you can
292
00:21:37.070 --> 00:21:41.800
get a 25% discount with our promo code
B two B growth. Again, that Shield app
293
00:21:41.800 --> 00:21:46.990
dot Ai and the promo code is B the
number to be growth all one word for a
294
00:21:46.990 --> 00:21:51.990
25% discount. Alright, let's get back
to the show. It requires you, it's a
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forcing function, Benji to take the ego
out of it. Like you can't go into
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content creation with this approach,
right? Like asking really compelling,
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intriguing questions
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and guiding people along the way and
genuinely like trying to explore for an
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answer because you have to be able to
acknowledge, I don't have the answer, I
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don't know to me, I see that is
incredibly freeing, but we've been
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Programmed in marketing land for the
last 15 years, I mean more than that,
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I'm sure, but since I've been in the
game you have to present yourself as
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the expert, you have to have the answer
or why? Why would somebody want to
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consume your stuff? You have to give
him an answer. And I've just found that
305
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it leads to like, it's like, okay, but
I can't keep doing this forever, this
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isn't sustainable, Like I have gone, I
even think about it right now, there's
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a guy that I've been following for the
last three or four months that I'm kind
308
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of tuned out on right now, his name is
Alex, her mosey, I freaking binge, That
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dude's content more than maybe as much
as I did with Gary V, certainly more
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than I have with a lot of other people,
but when I think about the content
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creators that I've gone on binge fests
with Alex or mosey, I've done it with
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Michael Hyatt. I've certainly done with
Gary vee, Gary V has probably been the
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longest and most most sustained because
it was more storytelling, it was his
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vlog. He wasn't necessarily like, he
had the same 11 or 12 things that he
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would talk about all the time, but the
compelling nature of the stories he was
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telling, it's like you're just
following around this, you know, $100
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million ceo and seeing his life that
was compelling, I wanted to watch it,
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which I think teaches us something
about commodity content. But this idea
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that like even the most prolific
content creators, for me personally,
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they have my attention for 23 months
maybe and I get through a backlog of 57,
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10 years of their content, then they
tap out because it's like okay, like
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I've learned from Alex or mosey enough
for a freaking masters degree, it has
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changed the trajectory of my entire
freaking business because of what I've
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learned from this man over the last two
or three months and I see this stuff on
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linkedin or I see a stuff on instagram
now and I'm like ma on to the next and
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I just think ah man, like this is
freaking hard, like how how are we
327
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supposed to like stay engaging, but For
the last nine or 10 months, every
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00:24:26.070 --> 00:24:30.150
freaking time I see a, every single
time I see an unthinkable episode pull
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up in my podcast feed from J Kenzo, I'm
like, yep, give me that because J is
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asking really compelling questions that
he doesn't know the answer to, and he's
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taking you on a journey to try to
figure out what the hell, how should we
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be thinking about it? And so he said
something on twitter, somebody was like,
333
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ah there's too many marketing shows,
should should I create another
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marketing show? And I think jay
responded, he said something to the
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effect of so long as there are still
questions to be asked and voices to be
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heard, there are more shows that need
to be made and I was just like, yep,
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and there's always gonna be questions
to ask and so I am so intrigued by this
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because I'm like, this is like the well
that it's like, you know, I'm a person
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of faith, it's like this is like this
is the well that keeps bringing life,
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like jesus is the water of life, Like I
can go and drink a cup of water or I
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can go get jesus in the same way, I'm
like, oh this is everlasting, like, I
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can go and drink from this well for
decades and decades to come because
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it's not an expert bill anymore. I
there's always going to be intriguing
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questions and the question that rex
just asked about gifting, I'm super
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passionate about gifting too and I hate
branded swag, but he's right. As soon
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as he said it, I was like, you know
what? I probably hate it too much. Like
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I need to ease up on that point of view
and really explore, why do I hate it so
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much? Like what, what did somebody get
me that puts such a bad taste in my
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mouth and then how can I not do that?
But not completely throw out the other
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stuff? Let's go on an exploration. We
could do that for a month, we could do
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four or five different episodes like
this exploring questions around that
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one specific thing and other questions
would inevitably pop up and we'd have
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content for an entire month and that
doesn't even freaking scratch the
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surface of all the things that people
are asking related to B two B marketing,
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which is what our buyers care about
when it comes to gift giving. The
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reason that we probably hate some of
the branded swagger's because it was
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just commodity. I mean, like ultimately,
like, it's just just like every other
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thing we ever got, there was no heart
behind it. There's no passion there.
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It's, it's the exact thing we're
talking about because so much of it
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comes back to mission and purpose, like
dan you brought up earlier, my marathon
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training. The things that I read, there
was articles that brought up drinking
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water that did hit me in the wrong way.
But there was also ones that hit in the
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right way because they told me
something like a trick that they
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learned while they were like, it's
still drink water that's still the core
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message. But hey, this is how often
this is how long my sip was. This was.
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I, I tried these three methods and then
you know what I mean? Like because they
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were being inquisitive and they were
asking a question, I was asking, am I
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drinking too much water at a time? And
you know what I mean? That's starting
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to really get things rolling where
you're like, oh yeah, we've covered
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this topic, but not in the same way.
It's point of view, it's perspective,
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right? And dan. That's something you
told me early on when I first joined.
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Like perspective point of view is
crucial and I'd love to hear kind of,
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your take their, I think that's when it
stops becoming commodity content. It's
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not just generic drink water, it's
nuanced and the good answers always
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00:27:54.580 --> 00:27:58.130
nuanced. Um, and that's how you can
tell that article was actually written
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00:27:58.130 --> 00:28:01.920
by someone who's probably actually ran
a marathon because most of them aren't
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there just kind of hashing out ones
that other people maybe had rehashed
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00:28:05.810 --> 00:28:09.890
before and then it just becomes
rehashed. Rehashed. It's funny just to
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go back to branded swag. There have
been times where I've purchased branded
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00:28:13.690 --> 00:28:17.540
swag Because I was such a big fan of
the company that I was like, I will
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00:28:17.540 --> 00:28:23.280
gladly pay $45 for a polo with this
company's logo on it because to me,
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this company and this logo means more
than Nike to me, I don't care if nobody
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00:28:28.500 --> 00:28:32.980
else knows the logo. I do right? So
it's kind of like, what's up with that?
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Why do we do that? And that, that
speaks right there, that speaks right
385
00:28:37.930 --> 00:28:42.390
there, dan to what jay talks a lot
about about being their favorite. Like
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00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:45.330
he showed this story in an email, I
shared it with our leadership team
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probably four or five months ago, but
he was like, any time the conversation
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around favorite Disney movie comes up,
I don't care what anybody says, Nobody
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00:28:55.000 --> 00:28:59.770
is ever going to tell me that that,
that a Goofy movie is not the greatest
390
00:28:59.770 --> 00:29:03.410
Disney movie of all time. And he goes
into the story about why it's his
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favorite. It's because it's super
nostalgic. And when he was in college
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living in this house with a bunch of
people that all all their names
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00:29:10.110 --> 00:29:14.170
starting with J just like him and you
know, gets into, I mean just, it's
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00:29:14.170 --> 00:29:19.540
masterful storytelling. But at the end
of the day, it's like, it's my favorite
395
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and you can't change it because it's my
favorite and if we as brands start
396
00:29:26.620 --> 00:29:33.040
trying to create content that is our
buyers favorite. It doesn't look like
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doing short term hacky trying to
manipulate algorithms. Like I say that
398
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like it's a negative thing. Like the
next question I was gonna ask, y'all is
399
00:29:43.410 --> 00:29:48.280
how do you create a higher level of
content content that is asking
400
00:29:48.280 --> 00:29:52.980
questions instead of proclaiming
expertise? But then how do you get it
401
00:29:52.980 --> 00:29:58.250
in front of people? Like the reason we
started gaming headlines on linkedin
402
00:29:58.250 --> 00:30:02.990
and and gaming things on google and
it's because we want to be where the
403
00:30:02.990 --> 00:30:07.220
people are like we we want to get the
stuff that we're trying to put out into
404
00:30:07.220 --> 00:30:10.650
the world in front of as many people as
possible and I think there's a
405
00:30:10.650 --> 00:30:15.050
disconnect in the people that are
really doing some good work. Like I
406
00:30:15.050 --> 00:30:19.270
know that there's not as many people
listening to jay is unthinkable show as
407
00:30:19.270 --> 00:30:23.040
there should be. And I'm like, but this
is like the greatest stuff and B two B
408
00:30:23.040 --> 00:30:28.440
marketing right now, but we're
consuming and this is not at all. I'm
409
00:30:28.440 --> 00:30:32.030
not even gonna say names because this
isn't to bash other people, but like
410
00:30:32.040 --> 00:30:37.320
we're seeing other types of marketing
content flood our feeds that's not
411
00:30:37.320 --> 00:30:41.620
nearly as substantial or like doesn't
have the sustenance that what jay is
412
00:30:41.620 --> 00:30:46.570
talking about. So it's like, how do you
create content that really does have
413
00:30:46.580 --> 00:30:51.490
sustenance that like can change
people's thinking and challenge what
414
00:30:51.490 --> 00:30:55.890
they're currently doing and do it in a
way that actually meets them where they
415
00:30:55.890 --> 00:31:00.880
are so that they can see it and and
have an opportunity to engage with it,
416
00:31:00.890 --> 00:31:03.500
but I don't know, I'm curious dan with
you building the audience growth
417
00:31:03.500 --> 00:31:07.010
product, curious rex if you have any
thoughts on this, but like, I think
418
00:31:07.010 --> 00:31:11.160
that's the thing, we've got to try to
figure out as we continue to explore
419
00:31:11.840 --> 00:31:16.180
commodity content. It's like, how do
you create non commodity content, but
420
00:31:16.180 --> 00:31:19.910
also get it in front of as many people
as you can. One of the reasons why I
421
00:31:19.910 --> 00:31:25.990
think jay is a few years out is partly
because of that. His message is
422
00:31:25.990 --> 00:31:30.860
resonating with a very select few who
can think ahead and see where he's at,
423
00:31:31.240 --> 00:31:35.030
but most people aren't there, it's like
trying to catch a wave, but you're,
424
00:31:35.040 --> 00:31:39.700
you're a few feet ahead of this. Well,
right, he's ahead of the swell, he's
425
00:31:39.700 --> 00:31:44.520
not writing the current swell in versus
Gary V road, the swell of social media
426
00:31:44.530 --> 00:31:50.410
in and find it pretty much perfectly
right. And now now Gary v is ahead of
427
00:31:50.410 --> 00:31:53.620
the swell and like the web three point
oh thing. And that's, I mean, I guess
428
00:31:53.630 --> 00:31:56.170
not even like the swell has been
building and like there's a lot of hype
429
00:31:56.170 --> 00:31:59.240
around that. So he's writing, he's
writing that as it's picking up, it's
430
00:31:59.240 --> 00:32:03.160
just early versus JJ is ahead of the
head of the game when it comes to
431
00:32:03.160 --> 00:32:07.380
asking questions and I actually think
like, you don't have to, like, you
432
00:32:07.380 --> 00:32:10.110
haven't arrived when you start asking
questions, you can start asking
433
00:32:10.110 --> 00:32:13.120
questions from the very beginning
because you don't know crap in the very
434
00:32:13.120 --> 00:32:17.050
beginning? So you might as well just
start asking questions. How do you do
435
00:32:17.050 --> 00:32:21.860
this? Hey people who have been here for
five years, how do you accomplish X.
436
00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:26.700
What is X? Right? And then you just
keep asking questions. And the thing,
437
00:32:26.710 --> 00:32:30.670
the thing where it starts to become
movement changing is when you have all
438
00:32:30.670 --> 00:32:35.190
the expertise, you've kind of learned
all the all the possible ways of doing
439
00:32:35.190 --> 00:32:39.060
something and you have essentially
mastered the craft instead of
440
00:32:39.060 --> 00:32:43.210
pretending to know the answers than
leading with questions is such a better
441
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:47.670
way forward. But by the time, you know
everything, you know what things have
442
00:32:47.670 --> 00:32:51.900
been answered and you know which things
haven't been. You're much better
443
00:32:51.900 --> 00:32:55.930
position to ask. The one question that
everybody is wrestling with or the the
444
00:32:55.930 --> 00:32:59.930
few, there's probably a few big ones in
the industry, like in marketing. I
445
00:32:59.930 --> 00:33:04.260
think like this is one of the reasons
why we were even considering this as a
446
00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:07.890
as an enemy for us rather than
commodity content was distraction. You
447
00:33:07.890 --> 00:33:11.470
spoke about it at the very beginning,
there's a reason why we considered that
448
00:33:11.470 --> 00:33:15.620
is because it's a widespread problem
across marketers. Too much distraction
449
00:33:15.620 --> 00:33:19.150
trying to pursue too many endeavors at
one time. I think you even Wrexham
450
00:33:19.150 --> 00:33:23.890
Benji, you just did an episode on this
right distraction. It's a freaking huge
451
00:33:23.890 --> 00:33:27.580
problem. It's not what we're going to
villainize but it's still something we
452
00:33:27.580 --> 00:33:31.090
need to be asking questions about
because it's a it's it's a problem for
453
00:33:31.090 --> 00:33:35.110
our for all marketers more than most
departments rex What are your thoughts?
454
00:33:35.120 --> 00:33:38.730
I'd love to hear your take. Yeah, I was
going to share a little bit of why I
455
00:33:38.730 --> 00:33:42.880
think we're all trying to game the
algorithms and we're trying to to trick
456
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:47.280
the systems into what we what we want
as the outcome, which is a lot of
457
00:33:47.280 --> 00:33:51.890
people seeing something that we've
produced and ultimately, you know, if
458
00:33:51.890 --> 00:33:54.960
we're if we're thinking like marketers
who care about revenue ultimately want
459
00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:58.860
them to then engage and we want them to
buy and that's but there's not a clear
460
00:33:58.860 --> 00:34:03.280
path. So one of the things that I've
noticed with a lot of the content that
461
00:34:03.280 --> 00:34:06.440
we're talking about, let's let's pick
on google search for just a little bit,
462
00:34:06.440 --> 00:34:11.239
let's talk about SEO optimizing, right?
And you know, one of the reasons that
463
00:34:11.239 --> 00:34:15.760
we try and game the system is because
our entire distribution plan is google,
464
00:34:16.540 --> 00:34:19.510
our entire plan. The only thing we
think is going to happen is that google
465
00:34:19.510 --> 00:34:22.610
is going to pick it up, right? We
talked about it like that, but we don't
466
00:34:22.610 --> 00:34:25.310
have an email list, we're gonna share
it to that we expect this to deeply
467
00:34:25.310 --> 00:34:28.739
resonate with. We don't have a linkedin
network that we're gonna share this
468
00:34:28.739 --> 00:34:31.310
with our top five influencers who are
going to really care about this and
469
00:34:31.310 --> 00:34:35.290
they're going to distribute it. But
then you look at companies like gone,
470
00:34:35.300 --> 00:34:38.380
one of my favorite examples of a brand
that I will go by their swag. They
471
00:34:38.380 --> 00:34:40.820
literally put up a swag shop and was
like, yeah, you know what son of a gun?
472
00:34:40.820 --> 00:34:44.409
I'd probably buy one because they
resonate with me. But way back in the
473
00:34:44.409 --> 00:34:47.110
day when chris or lob was their
director of marketing, he's now over
474
00:34:47.110 --> 00:34:52.090
sales, he would send us hundreds of
people and he would send us all notes
475
00:34:52.090 --> 00:34:55.460
though. People he knew were deeply
passionate about sales and he would say,
476
00:34:55.469 --> 00:34:59.240
hey, we just posted this thing about
this kind of controversial topic about
477
00:34:59.240 --> 00:35:03.630
the things never to say on sales calls,
Would you take a look? Yeah. You know
478
00:35:03.630 --> 00:35:08.120
why not? So the question is, are you
using the channel for distribution? Is
479
00:35:08.120 --> 00:35:12.630
that your only way to play there? And
would you be confident enough to share
480
00:35:12.630 --> 00:35:16.080
it with your audience with your network
with a friend? Would you do you have
481
00:35:16.080 --> 00:35:18.550
the confidence in the content you're
creating? And this is a question
482
00:35:18.550 --> 00:35:21.960
reflective of myself. Like, do I have
the confidence in the content I create?
483
00:35:22.140 --> 00:35:25.310
That? I would send it to a friend and
say, hey, would you comment on this?
484
00:35:25.320 --> 00:35:27.940
Hey, I'd love to get your perspective
on this because I know you'd say
485
00:35:27.940 --> 00:35:31.200
something unique here. I've been doing
that more lately? Where I've been very
486
00:35:31.200 --> 00:35:33.920
guilty in the past of like, uh yeah,
I'm not gonna send this to someone, I
487
00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:37.390
hope linkedin picks it up because I
wouldn't send that to my friends
488
00:35:37.460 --> 00:35:42.230
because it's just not that good, right?
I don't want to share it. So it's the
489
00:35:42.230 --> 00:35:45.070
question of what's your distribution
plan? It's the question of how
490
00:35:45.070 --> 00:35:47.250
confident do you feel in it that you
would actually share this with the
491
00:35:47.250 --> 00:35:50.470
people you care about and who should
care about the topic? I think those are
492
00:35:50.470 --> 00:35:53.310
two of the biggest issues around
commodity content. We're just, we're
493
00:35:53.310 --> 00:35:56.420
relying too much on other people doing
the work and we're not putting in a
494
00:35:56.420 --> 00:36:00.360
plan and doing the work on the other
end. If you don't want to proof read
495
00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:05.680
your own content, somebody mentioned
this in a comment on one of my linkedin
496
00:36:05.680 --> 00:36:09.530
posts. Like she said, one of the
reasons I know I'm creating commodity
497
00:36:09.530 --> 00:36:13.410
content is I don't even want to proof
read my own stuff. That's so true. So
498
00:36:13.410 --> 00:36:19.260
good. I'm like, that speaks exactly to
what rex is saying here, but we've
499
00:36:19.270 --> 00:36:23.730
we've programmed our minds to think
that even though we don't, I think it's
500
00:36:23.730 --> 00:36:29.540
that good, we've optimized the crap out
of it and it's going to, you know, and
501
00:36:29.540 --> 00:36:32.700
some platform is going to make sure
that it gets in front of a lot of
502
00:36:32.700 --> 00:36:37.010
people, but it's like we're not
thinking that very next step if it does
503
00:36:37.010 --> 00:36:42.650
get what I want, google ranking this
article because what does that, what do
504
00:36:42.650 --> 00:36:47.330
them people think of our brand when
this is their first exposure to it.
505
00:36:47.340 --> 00:36:53.550
This article that looks like Abbott
wrote it and it has zero personality.
506
00:36:53.560 --> 00:36:57.700
It's not helpful. It's just an
amalgamation of the other seven
507
00:36:57.700 --> 00:37:01.280
articles that they also like popped up
on google for the things that they
508
00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:05.150
searched for and I don't know,
marketing gets way more fun when you
509
00:37:05.150 --> 00:37:10.850
start thinking about like when somebody
does engage with this, is this going to
510
00:37:10.850 --> 00:37:14.580
be their favorite? Like could this be
potentially be their favorite piece of
511
00:37:14.580 --> 00:37:19.810
content that they consume today? And I
think if you can stack and like over
512
00:37:19.810 --> 00:37:23.050
and over and over again, consistently
deliver someone's favorite piece of
513
00:37:23.050 --> 00:37:28.950
content, you become a brand where it's
like, I want to buy their swag because
514
00:37:29.530 --> 00:37:33.270
these guys get me like, I don't care
what you, I don't care what anybody
515
00:37:33.270 --> 00:37:39.310
else says, they're my favorite and that,
that's what I want to start doing for
516
00:37:39.310 --> 00:37:44.820
our customers is like helping our
customers figure out how can you create
517
00:37:44.830 --> 00:37:51.300
your audiences favorite content and and
it's, it's going to be freaking hard
518
00:37:51.300 --> 00:37:57.390
man. Like this is not, this is not an
easy problem to solve. And and here we
519
00:37:57.390 --> 00:38:01.150
are saying like we've made it to the
mountaintop, we know how to do it, you
520
00:38:01.150 --> 00:38:06.330
just ask questions like how do you,
maybe we figured maybe in six months
521
00:38:06.720 --> 00:38:10.630
we're like, ok, we're inadequate. Like
I don't think that's gonna happen, but
522
00:38:10.640 --> 00:38:14.150
there's all kinds of stuff. We're gonna
be like figuring out on our journey to
523
00:38:14.150 --> 00:38:18.540
figure out how to create, you know,
more more resonant stuff, stuff that is
524
00:38:18.540 --> 00:38:22.570
somebody's favorite because we're
trying to figure it out along alongside
525
00:38:22.580 --> 00:38:26.540
hopefully a lot more people, the more
and more we talk about this. I'm
526
00:38:26.540 --> 00:38:31.900
curious and I know we only have a few
minutes left here chris walker for
527
00:38:31.900 --> 00:38:34.890
anybody listening to the show. They
probably already listened to, you know,
528
00:38:34.900 --> 00:38:40.210
demand gen, lie or stated Manchin. He
has seemingly done the exact opposite
529
00:38:40.220 --> 00:38:43.980
of what we're talking about here. He's
not, he's not asking a lot of questions.
530
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:49.520
He's making a lot of proclamations and
they're really good proclamations. I
531
00:38:49.520 --> 00:38:53.590
think he's got 25,000 people listen to
his podcast. Everything he puts on
532
00:38:53.590 --> 00:38:57.570
linkedin seemingly turns to gold. He
put a nine minute linkedin video up the
533
00:38:57.570 --> 00:39:02.370
other day, I had like 11,000 views was
like, what the actual hell? Like this
534
00:39:02.380 --> 00:39:07.350
seemingly can do whatever the hell he
wants and it freaking works. But I find
535
00:39:07.350 --> 00:39:12.410
myself tagging rex or dan or sending a
text message to bill, like, oh my God,
536
00:39:12.410 --> 00:39:18.420
think like look at this because this
stuff really is good. So like why is
537
00:39:18.420 --> 00:39:22.790
that working when we're sitting here
over saying like, don't be the expert
538
00:39:22.800 --> 00:39:26.290
don't make proclamations, like what
chris walker is doing, okay, I gotta
539
00:39:26.290 --> 00:39:31.860
tap it for one second and then I want
dan's take too. But to me, I feel like
540
00:39:31.870 --> 00:39:34.780
it's exactly what we've been saying
this entire conversation because
541
00:39:34.780 --> 00:39:38.850
there's space in anywhere that you're
doing, what you're doing with true
542
00:39:38.850 --> 00:39:43.070
heart and passion and you actually know
why you're doing it. You can thrive in
543
00:39:43.070 --> 00:39:46.890
any of these. It's not like everyone
needs to move the question asking. It's
544
00:39:46.890 --> 00:39:51.660
the people that feel and resonate with
that, which I really resonate with. We
545
00:39:51.660 --> 00:39:55.640
need to ask better questions. And so
that would be something that would
546
00:39:55.640 --> 00:39:59.260
really work for me as someone who
already loves interview. You know what
547
00:39:59.260 --> 00:40:02.770
I mean? Like already loves thinking
through what's a better question, What?
548
00:40:02.780 --> 00:40:07.340
But if you have something to say and
you can say it pretty firmly, there's
549
00:40:07.340 --> 00:40:10.220
still space for that. There's always
gonna be space and content for the
550
00:40:10.220 --> 00:40:14.000
person that comes along that's like,
you know what? This is the best way we
551
00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:16.360
want to hear that kind of stuff. We
want to hear someone make a
552
00:40:16.360 --> 00:40:22.050
proclamation and defend it and back it
up. Like with data or numbers or here's
553
00:40:22.050 --> 00:40:26.310
a case study. Like we still want that.
It's just not everyone should be doing
554
00:40:26.310 --> 00:40:30.000
it because not everyone has the
experience that he has, not, everyone
555
00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:35.480
has the like that all plays into it. So
it's not, this will never be a one size
556
00:40:35.480 --> 00:40:40.330
fits all and we all start fumbling when
we all think it is that like then we're
557
00:40:40.340 --> 00:40:44.050
all, we're all just ranking for search
and then what we're all screwed because
558
00:40:44.050 --> 00:40:49.160
we're all just copycats and we're not
filling the lane that we know we should
559
00:40:49.160 --> 00:40:53.240
be filling, that comes back to mission
and purpose so much. But in marketing
560
00:40:53.610 --> 00:40:58.190
again, you're looking at everybody else
and then you get caught copying. So dan,
561
00:40:58.190 --> 00:41:00.400
what are your thoughts, man? That's
just like the first thing that came to
562
00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:05.040
my mind. I think your answer is right,
Benji, like there's just so many
563
00:41:05.040 --> 00:41:08.750
nuances and if you hit a lot of the
right points the right way, like chris
564
00:41:08.750 --> 00:41:12.080
has, then it's going to resonate, it's
going to do well. And I still think
565
00:41:12.080 --> 00:41:16.830
he's, he's riding the wave expert bill
hasn't left yet. There's still plenty
566
00:41:16.830 --> 00:41:21.300
of room for good expertise and he's,
he's an expert answering something that
567
00:41:21.310 --> 00:41:25.790
in a way that nobody else had quite
addressed and came counter counter to a
568
00:41:25.790 --> 00:41:29.610
lot of popular beliefs, which just
creates momentum because now you have
569
00:41:29.610 --> 00:41:33.250
people fighting with you over, which
just creates attention, it's just
570
00:41:33.250 --> 00:41:38.050
fantastic. But I don't know, I'd, I'd
wager to say that uh, in three years
571
00:41:38.050 --> 00:41:42.040
he's gonna be asking more questions.
That's exactly what I was thinking is.
572
00:41:42.050 --> 00:41:47.240
I'm curious to see in 123 years I was
thinking one year, but I think three
573
00:41:47.240 --> 00:41:50.850
years probably more accurate. Is he
still going to have the kind of
574
00:41:50.850 --> 00:41:57.440
attention that he has now and maybe, I
mean I think you, you see, you see
575
00:41:57.810 --> 00:42:02.620
other types of content that constantly
pull up in my feed from other creators,
576
00:42:02.760 --> 00:42:07.420
it's not nearly as good as his stuff
but they're still like and it seems
577
00:42:07.420 --> 00:42:12.320
like a little bit more sustainable but
because chris is so in the weeds, not
578
00:42:12.320 --> 00:42:16.630
in the weeds. I think he's
intentionally engaged on a deep level
579
00:42:16.630 --> 00:42:20.620
with some of his customers so that he
keeps his finger on the pulse of like
580
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:25.770
what is actually working and what's not
working. And I think he's very
581
00:42:25.770 --> 00:42:30.860
intentional in doing that. And so I
think by seeing that it's going to feed
582
00:42:30.860 --> 00:42:35.450
him like he seems to consistently have
a new point of view every 3 to 4 months
583
00:42:35.460 --> 00:42:40.070
and I think he's intentionally designed
it that way so that he does and we have
584
00:42:40.070 --> 00:42:42.920
over the years. I mean we've we've
talked about P. O. V. Discovery for
585
00:42:42.920 --> 00:42:45.890
seasons of time. We've obviously talked
about content based networking for a
586
00:42:45.890 --> 00:42:49.110
long time. We talked about doing
original research on the back of your
587
00:42:49.110 --> 00:42:53.380
podcast. That was something we were all
talking about for for a while because
588
00:42:53.380 --> 00:42:57.850
we're practitioners of the craft. We
are constantly learning new things
589
00:42:57.850 --> 00:43:01.360
about it. And it's like as we learn it
like hey we made it to the top of the
590
00:43:01.360 --> 00:43:04.990
mountain, we figured out that you can
produce your own original research just
591
00:43:04.990 --> 00:43:09.080
by asking three simple questions at the
end of your podcast interview or we
592
00:43:09.080 --> 00:43:13.530
figured out that you can create a
better episode by asking one of three
593
00:43:13.530 --> 00:43:17.120
different P. O. V. Discovery questions
at the beginning of your episode? Like
594
00:43:17.200 --> 00:43:21.440
but the thing that's been frustrating
to me is like man do I just do we just
595
00:43:21.440 --> 00:43:25.850
have to keep coming up with those
points of view Like And I get like I
596
00:43:25.850 --> 00:43:29.850
guess every 3-4 months we'll we'll
think of something else but like I just
597
00:43:29.850 --> 00:43:33.830
like this other way so much more. And
are there more things that we're going
598
00:43:33.830 --> 00:43:37.830
to figure out about B. Two B podcasting?
Yeah of course like we're figuring out
599
00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:43.390
a lot as we go but I think to your
point Benji it's like there's never
600
00:43:43.390 --> 00:43:49.150
gonna be a this is the only way I
really like question asking, exploring,
601
00:43:49.160 --> 00:43:53.650
guiding along a journey, asking
questions that people haven't asked
602
00:43:53.650 --> 00:43:59.060
before or haven't necessarily thought
about but that I for sure don't want to
603
00:43:59.060 --> 00:44:03.560
proclaim that that's the only way well
I'm gonna wrap us up here this
604
00:44:03.560 --> 00:44:08.090
conversation. I feel like we could
easily go for quite a bit longer. We'll
605
00:44:08.090 --> 00:44:12.010
probably have to have you guys back on
so we can continue this, See the
606
00:44:12.020 --> 00:44:17.280
evolutions that continue to happen. But
instead typically what I do, I take
607
00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:21.260
notes on my white board and I read the
things that I I learned from the guests,
608
00:44:21.260 --> 00:44:24.890
I gotta say I'm walking away from this
one with just two questions that I want
609
00:44:24.900 --> 00:44:29.080
every listener to ask themselves. One I
want you to ask is this for attention
610
00:44:29.080 --> 00:44:32.460
or for transformation Is the stuff that
you're posting is the content that
611
00:44:32.460 --> 00:44:36.600
you're producing this week. This month
as you're thinking about 20, is it all
612
00:44:36.600 --> 00:44:40.450
about attention or is there a level of
transformation? And then second, I love
613
00:44:40.450 --> 00:44:43.750
the question that we were considering,
do I have the confidence in my content
614
00:44:43.750 --> 00:44:46.960
to send this to a friend and say, Hey,
what do you think about this? Because
615
00:44:46.960 --> 00:44:51.380
that's another really, really helpful
question as we're making content to be
616
00:44:51.380 --> 00:44:54.410
thinking about, Do I have the
confidence in my content to send this
617
00:44:54.690 --> 00:44:59.750
to a friend and say, what do you think
about this? Thanks guys. James rex dan.
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00:44:59.760 --> 00:45:04.950
Excellent insights, Absolutely. Such a
fun conversation and thanks for being
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00:45:04.950 --> 00:45:08.200
on B two B growth today. Hey, if you
haven't subscribed yet, do so on your
620
00:45:08.200 --> 00:45:12.040
favorite whatever podcast platform
you're listening to this on right now,
621
00:45:12.050 --> 00:45:15.830
you can connect with all of us on
linkedin. We would love to chat with
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00:45:15.830 --> 00:45:19.760
you about marketing, business life and
keep doing work that matters. We'll
623
00:45:19.760 --> 00:45:20.320
chat against
624
00:45:23.490 --> 00:45:27.090
one of the things we've learned about
podcast audience growth is that word of
625
00:45:27.090 --> 00:45:31.770
mouth works. It works really, really
well actually. So if you love this show,
626
00:45:31.770 --> 00:45:35.690
it would be awesome if you texted a
friend to tell them about it. And if
627
00:45:35.690 --> 00:45:40.020
you send me a text with a screenshot of
the text you sent to your friend, meta.
628
00:45:40.030 --> 00:45:43.670
I know I'll send you a copy of my book,
Content based networking, How to
629
00:45:43.680 --> 00:45:47.110
instantly connect with anyone you want
to know. My cell phone number is
630
00:45:47.110 --> 00:45:54.300
40749033 to 8. Happy texting. Mm hmm.