Transcript
WEBVTT
1
00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:08.310
Hey there, this is James Carberry, founder of sweet fish media and one
2
00:00:08.310 --> 00:00:11.189
of the cohosts of this show.
For the last year and a half I've
3
00:00:11.189 --> 00:00:14.990
been working on my very first book. In the book I share the three
4
00:00:15.029 --> 00:00:18.910
part framework we've used as the foundation
for our growth. Here is sweetfish.
5
00:00:19.350 --> 00:00:22.620
Now there are lots of companies that
everised a bunch of money and have grown
6
00:00:22.699 --> 00:00:25.579
insanely fast, and we featured a
lot of them here on the show.
7
00:00:26.339 --> 00:00:30.579
We've decided to bootstrap our business,
which usually equates to pretty slow growth,
8
00:00:31.100 --> 00:00:34.700
but using the strategy outlined in the
book, we are on pace to be
9
00:00:34.859 --> 00:00:38.649
one of inks fastest growing companies in
two thousand and twenty. The book is
10
00:00:38.729 --> 00:00:42.729
called content based networking, how to
instantly connect with anyone you want to know.
11
00:00:43.250 --> 00:00:45.329
If you're a fan of audio books
like me, you can find the
12
00:00:45.369 --> 00:00:48.450
book on audible or if you like
physical books, you can also find it
13
00:00:48.570 --> 00:00:54.359
on Amazon. Just search content based
networking or James carberry CR be a ary
14
00:00:54.759 --> 00:00:58.759
in audible or Amazon and it should
pop right up. All right, let's
15
00:00:58.759 --> 00:01:03.439
get into the show. Hey,
everybody, logan with sweet fish here.
16
00:01:03.679 --> 00:01:07.629
It's a new year and at new
decade and we're celebrating by rounding up the
17
00:01:07.750 --> 00:01:11.469
top twenty episodes as we look back
on two thousand and nineteen. Will be
18
00:01:11.549 --> 00:01:15.950
sharing them here throughout the month of
January in our Hashtag best of two thousand
19
00:01:15.989 --> 00:01:19.260
and nineteen series. We've reached the
end of our top twenty countdown of the
20
00:01:19.340 --> 00:01:25.060
best episodes of two thousand and nineteen
and today you hear from Christopher lockhead again.
21
00:01:25.340 --> 00:01:30.260
He did a two part series within
the category creation series with John Rougie
22
00:01:30.340 --> 00:01:34.890
here on BB growth. Another great
conversation with him. Is Why it comes
23
00:01:34.969 --> 00:01:38.569
in at number one in our best
of two thousand and nineteen series. If
24
00:01:38.609 --> 00:01:42.890
you like this topic of category creation
in category design, you may want to
25
00:01:42.930 --> 00:01:47.319
check out Christopher's own podcast. Follow
you're different. It's one that I really
26
00:01:47.359 --> 00:01:52.000
enjoy and have been subscribed to lately
as well. If you enjoyed this episode
27
00:01:52.040 --> 00:01:55.200
but you didn't catch all of the
top twenty of two thousand and nineteen,
28
00:01:55.439 --> 00:01:59.799
you can go to sweet phish mediacoma
blog, scroll down and look on the
29
00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:04.109
right hand side for Hashtag Best of
two thousand and nineteen in the categories there
30
00:02:04.269 --> 00:02:07.469
and you'll find our top twenty episodes
from all of two thousand and nineteen.
31
00:02:09.629 --> 00:02:14.469
Hi there and welcome to another episode
of the Category Creation Series on the BDB
32
00:02:14.629 --> 00:02:19.500
growth show. I'm John Rougie.
This is part two of our conversation with
33
00:02:19.620 --> 00:02:23.539
Chris Lockhead. If you haven't heard
part one yet, pause your podcast player
34
00:02:23.580 --> 00:02:27.539
right now and check that at first
there's some great foundational material in there about
35
00:02:27.620 --> 00:02:31.330
what category design is and why marketers
should care about it. A quick refresher
36
00:02:31.370 --> 00:02:35.250
about Chris is in order first,
though. Chris is the author of a
37
00:02:35.370 --> 00:02:38.530
play bigger, the go to book
on category design. He's a widely accomplished
38
00:02:38.650 --> 00:02:44.289
silicon valley CMO and he's been described
as the Bruce Willis of category design.
39
00:02:44.360 --> 00:02:47.599
In part one, Chris shared why
he thinks category design is a marketing superpower,
40
00:02:49.080 --> 00:02:53.080
why the category kings tend to capture
seventy six percent of the markets economics
41
00:02:53.159 --> 00:02:57.840
on average, and how legendary businesses
need to design a great company, a
42
00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:01.110
great product and a great category.
Now in part two will hear why Chris
43
00:03:01.270 --> 00:03:07.310
believes Pepsi's attempts to unseat Coke as
the category king is one of the dumbest
44
00:03:07.469 --> 00:03:12.310
marketing efforts ever. Will hear what
Pacasso can teach marketers about the importance of
45
00:03:12.389 --> 00:03:15.300
being different and we'll hear a Chris
explain why trying to convince people that you
46
00:03:15.340 --> 00:03:19.939
are better than something else can actually
work against you. Now, when we
47
00:03:20.020 --> 00:03:23.699
left off, Chris had just finished
telling us how legendary companies spend more time
48
00:03:23.900 --> 00:03:29.610
on marketing the problem they're solving and
less time marketing the products themselves. When
49
00:03:29.610 --> 00:03:32.210
we pick back up, all start
by asking Chris for his take on whether
50
00:03:32.330 --> 00:03:38.210
aspiring category designers need a huge marketing
budget worth category design can actually happen more
51
00:03:38.250 --> 00:03:43.120
organically. So, without further ADO, here is part two of our conversation
52
00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:49.560
with Chris lockhead. So you talked
about defining this problem and marketing that versus
53
00:03:49.599 --> 00:03:53.680
the product itself. Does that process
mean that you have to have a huge
54
00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:57.750
advertising budget, a huge team to
support that, a big kind of Pr
55
00:03:57.830 --> 00:04:01.110
Push, or is it you know, equally or can it be effective if
56
00:04:01.189 --> 00:04:04.990
you kind of are taking it from
a more of a grassroots approach or more
57
00:04:04.990 --> 00:04:10.340
of our own organic route? You
can absolutely take the more organic route and
58
00:04:10.740 --> 00:04:15.660
Victor Victor Hugo famously said all the
armies of the world cannot stop an idea
59
00:04:15.699 --> 00:04:19.980
whose time has come, and so
in a lot of ways category design line
60
00:04:20.819 --> 00:04:28.209
is a process and approach to making
it your time. And so as you
61
00:04:28.290 --> 00:04:31.290
go to execute from a marketing perspective, what you want to ask yourself is
62
00:04:31.850 --> 00:04:38.449
what's the best way to have my
point of view about a problem and therefore
63
00:04:38.490 --> 00:04:44.639
a solution catch fire? And look, would having a two hundred and fifty
64
00:04:44.680 --> 00:04:47.959
million dollar marketing budget help? Sure, but you know, if you look
65
00:04:47.959 --> 00:04:53.110
at it, most startups don't have
anywhere near that. And so the thing
66
00:04:53.189 --> 00:04:57.269
you got to ask yourself is,
what are the ways in which I can
67
00:04:57.670 --> 00:05:02.350
move the thinking in the space to
my agenda, and begin to ask yourself
68
00:05:02.389 --> 00:05:04.550
that. And you know, we
can get into tactics if you like,
69
00:05:04.709 --> 00:05:09.420
John. There's a lot of ways
to go after this thing, but fundamentally
70
00:05:09.420 --> 00:05:13.540
you're doing something different. But most
people are doing is they're competing. They're
71
00:05:13.579 --> 00:05:16.660
competing on price, they're competing on
speeds and feeds. My carbondingulators, and
72
00:05:16.699 --> 00:05:20.139
I'm going to use this word on
purpose, better than your carbondingulator, and
73
00:05:20.339 --> 00:05:28.569
anybody who's having a better conversation has
fallen into a product feature and price war,
74
00:05:29.170 --> 00:05:31.250
and that's always a race to the
bottom. The other thing about this
75
00:05:31.449 --> 00:05:38.639
word better is when I say my
products better than your product, what's left
76
00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:44.040
in everybody's mind, is your product
better? Is a comparison game. And
77
00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:46.399
so you know, right now,
I don't know if you've seen this,
78
00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:51.509
add the idiots at Pepsi are spending
God unknown millions of dollars on a new
79
00:05:51.589 --> 00:05:57.550
campaign with the guy from the office. And which guy? I don't want
80
00:05:57.550 --> 00:06:00.029
a slot of TV. which which
got the main guy? Steve Carrell,
81
00:06:00.509 --> 00:06:04.420
Sieve Kraft? Yeah, and the
first set of ads have this are,
82
00:06:04.579 --> 00:06:08.699
I think, in a diner,
if I'm remembering right, and the waiter,
83
00:06:08.939 --> 00:06:11.579
waitress, comes up to these folks
and says, you know what,
84
00:06:11.740 --> 00:06:14.100
can I get you to drink?
And they say, you know, we'd
85
00:06:14.139 --> 00:06:17.379
like a coke, and the waiter
says will Pepsi do or is Pepsi all
86
00:06:17.420 --> 00:06:21.329
right, or something like this,
and then this actor gets up and says,
87
00:06:21.449 --> 00:06:25.170
is Pepsi All Right? Well,
Pepsi's Awesome and it's this and it's
88
00:06:25.209 --> 00:06:30.009
that and and I'm sitting there going
you dumb efforts. You guys are so
89
00:06:30.410 --> 00:06:35.600
stupid, because the minute he says
well, Pepsi's who do you mean?
90
00:06:35.720 --> 00:06:41.920
Pepsi's all right, they're comparing himself
to coke. And so whenever we compare
91
00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:45.800
ourselves to somebody else. What's left
in the mind of the customer, the
92
00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:48.910
consumer, the buyer, is the
thing that we are comparing ourselves to,
93
00:06:49.350 --> 00:06:55.069
as opposed to our own unique space. And so all they're doing with this
94
00:06:55.629 --> 00:07:00.230
multi zillion dollar campaign is telling the
entire world that coke is a category king
95
00:07:00.430 --> 00:07:05.579
and we're not. It's the dumbest
marketing campaign maybe in history, and that's
96
00:07:05.660 --> 00:07:12.420
the trap that everybody falls into.
This this comparison game, and all the
97
00:07:12.500 --> 00:07:15.930
comparison game does is valid that the
company, end or product you're comparing yourself
98
00:07:16.050 --> 00:07:20.449
to is the category King and you're
not. So it really works against you
99
00:07:20.529 --> 00:07:25.810
because you're you're having the conversation on
someone else's terms instead of your own.
100
00:07:26.449 --> 00:07:30.560
Yes, and you're also the game
is wired against you because the rules have
101
00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:34.519
been created by somebody else. The
minute go Joe Industry says, well,
102
00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:40.959
it's not about how do I wash
my hands, it's about how do I
103
00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:46.310
get my hands clean in the absence
of water. They have redesigned the way
104
00:07:46.430 --> 00:07:50.670
we think about it. Yeah,
it's it's funny you mentioned that coke and
105
00:07:50.709 --> 00:07:56.550
pepsie example, because a few decades
ago they did that famous kind of taste
106
00:07:56.709 --> 00:08:00.339
test campaign where they talked about how
Pepsi tastes better than coke, which is
107
00:08:01.060 --> 00:08:03.420
exactly kind of going against what you
talked about earlier. It's a, says,
108
00:08:03.540 --> 00:08:07.139
subjective, but they're trying to positions. They were. They were trying
109
00:08:07.180 --> 00:08:11.300
to position Pepsi as kind of an
objective better a product than coke, and
110
00:08:11.379 --> 00:08:15.170
then, you know, thirty years
later they're still finding the same battle.
111
00:08:15.410 --> 00:08:18.730
Yeah, the other thing that the
the category does, of course, is
112
00:08:18.529 --> 00:08:24.170
they look at who number one is
and they assume that number one is the
113
00:08:24.209 --> 00:08:28.040
best product. That's the assumption that
you and I make. The other thing
114
00:08:28.079 --> 00:08:31.519
that's interesting if you get into the
human psychology of it, John, is
115
00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:37.480
human beings are pack animals. We
don't want to be an outlier because if
116
00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:41.509
there's ten of us together in the
woods and two of us are away over
117
00:08:41.629 --> 00:08:45.789
here and eight of us are over
there, the two that are way over
118
00:08:45.950 --> 00:08:50.070
here are the ones more likely to
get eaten by the bear. And so
119
00:08:50.590 --> 00:08:56.860
every user of zoom makes potential users
of zoom more comfortable that zoom is what
120
00:08:56.899 --> 00:09:03.019
I should do. And so human
beings are heard or pack animals, and
121
00:09:03.220 --> 00:09:09.179
so we are comforted by buying the
product or service that is the category King.
122
00:09:09.220 --> 00:09:11.169
Yeah, it's like I think in
the book you mentioned, it's kind
123
00:09:11.210 --> 00:09:18.090
of a self reinforcing cycle where the
category king is seen as, like you
124
00:09:18.129 --> 00:09:20.730
said, the best product and then
people buy that product or that service because
125
00:09:20.769 --> 00:09:26.799
it's perceived as the best and it
just continues to cycle itself or drive itself
126
00:09:26.840 --> 00:09:30.480
from there. And I know one
of the other points you made is when
127
00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:35.879
companies are faced with a potentially new
category that's coming to market, there's a
128
00:09:35.960 --> 00:09:39.149
real need for them to take the
initiative and define that because if they don't,
129
00:09:39.470 --> 00:09:43.590
someone else is going to do that
and we'll be caught in kind of
130
00:09:43.629 --> 00:09:46.789
a secondary position. You tell me
a little bit more about that? Yeah,
131
00:09:46.789 --> 00:09:48.470
I'll give you one that has been
going on the tech industry for a
132
00:09:48.549 --> 00:09:52.299
long time. A lot of people
say email sucks, I hate email.
133
00:09:52.460 --> 00:09:56.379
When somebody going to reimagine email,
and this has been tried many, many
134
00:09:56.419 --> 00:10:01.700
times, and the reason that no
one's been able to displace email, even
135
00:10:01.740 --> 00:10:07.090
though many of us agree that the
email paradigm is not maybe the greatest paradigm,
136
00:10:07.129 --> 00:10:13.049
is because everyone that has tried to
take out email has been using email
137
00:10:13.090 --> 00:10:16.210
as the point of reference. Right. So if I say to you,
138
00:10:16.210 --> 00:10:20.409
Hey, John don't think about pink
dinosaurs, whatever you do. No,
139
00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:24.799
no, pink dinosaurs. Don't think
about pink dinosaurs. You can think about
140
00:10:24.840 --> 00:10:26.360
anything you want to think about,
but not a pink dinosaur. You can
141
00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:30.279
create any animal you want, any
color you want, but just no pink
142
00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:33.200
dinosaurs. What's in your mind?
Yeah, of course pink dinosaurs. Right.
143
00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:37.830
And so the reality is, if
the problem is how do we have
144
00:10:37.909 --> 00:10:45.070
an asynchronous communication that shows up as
a time based feed in an inbox?
145
00:10:45.669 --> 00:10:50.820
Well, email wins and everybody who
has tried to take out email for the
146
00:10:50.940 --> 00:10:56.100
most part has lived inside of the
framing of the problem that is email.
147
00:10:56.700 --> 00:11:01.379
And until you reframe the problem,
no one's going to take out email.
148
00:11:01.779 --> 00:11:03.730
that. Does that make any sense? Huhn? Yeah, it's like you're
149
00:11:05.090 --> 00:11:09.289
you're talking about your offering in terms
of the kind of the wrong problem.
150
00:11:09.330 --> 00:11:11.850
You're talking about why it's better than
something else. That kind of goes back
151
00:11:11.889 --> 00:11:15.889
to that cooke versus Pepsi example.
It's like you're setting the stage of you
152
00:11:16.009 --> 00:11:18.919
know, this is why what we're
doing is better than email. Out All
153
00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:22.480
of a sudden someone has to maybe
give up emails to use this new thing,
154
00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:26.120
which poses a huge kind of mental
barrier that they have to get through
155
00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:31.159
and instead of taking them to maybe
a new way of communicating and reframing a
156
00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:35.870
different style, maybe synchronous, you
know, were non time based perhaps,
157
00:11:35.950 --> 00:11:41.110
but like that, that shift is
it hasn't happened. They're like they're talking
158
00:11:41.149 --> 00:11:43.870
about something that is is working against
them. They don't really have a way
159
00:11:45.669 --> 00:11:48.539
to talk about what they're doing in
in a way that maybe compliments email or
160
00:11:48.700 --> 00:11:52.500
goes on top of email or kind
of benefits you in some other way.
161
00:11:52.820 --> 00:11:54.700
Yeah, I'll give you a simple
example that I think certainly I can relate
162
00:11:54.740 --> 00:11:58.740
to, maybe most people can as
well. There's a small chain of restaurants
163
00:11:58.779 --> 00:12:05.809
in the San Francisco Bay area Sushi
restaurants. Now, you think about Sushi
164
00:12:05.929 --> 00:12:09.769
restaurant as a category, it's a
wellknown category. If I say to you,
165
00:12:09.850 --> 00:12:13.889
Hey, John, we're going out
tonight for Sushi, you have a
166
00:12:13.970 --> 00:12:16.159
picture in your mind of what that's
probably going to look like, right.
167
00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:22.000
Yeah, this company said we're not
going to solve a problem called how do
168
00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:26.320
you make great Sushi, which is
the problem that most people look at when
169
00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:30.190
they open a Sushi restaurant. Maybe
they and maybe they think how we got
170
00:12:30.230 --> 00:12:33.470
to make great Sushi and make money
doing maybe they look at it that way
171
00:12:33.509 --> 00:12:35.870
anyway. However they look at it, is how they look at it,
172
00:12:35.990 --> 00:12:39.029
and they do what most Sushi restaurant
entrepreneurs do, which is they compete on
173
00:12:39.750 --> 00:12:43.779
how awesome our Sushi is, the
location of our restaurant, how awesome our
174
00:12:43.820 --> 00:12:48.100
staff is and the value that we
deliver ie, you know, price for
175
00:12:48.179 --> 00:12:54.019
quality is good, and they they
accept those kinds of dimensions, if you
176
00:12:54.139 --> 00:12:58.330
will, of competition as the only
way to compete. And what they what
177
00:12:58.490 --> 00:13:03.289
they hope for, because they're artists, because there their chefs, is that
178
00:13:03.450 --> 00:13:07.090
when they open their restaurant, people
are going to say, wow, that's
179
00:13:07.129 --> 00:13:11.049
the best Sushi I ever tasted.
That's how most entrepreneurs think, and that's
180
00:13:11.049 --> 00:13:13.960
how tech entrepreneurs think as well.
All, that's the greatest algorithm ever.
181
00:13:15.159 --> 00:13:18.559
Right, Oh wow, I've never
seen a carbon ingulator so fast and so
182
00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:22.559
elegant. Right, that's what they're
all trying to build. So this small
183
00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:26.230
chain of Sushi restaurants reimagine the problem, and here's how they reimagined it.
184
00:13:26.309 --> 00:13:31.590
They said, we love Sushi and
we love eating on the go, but
185
00:13:31.070 --> 00:13:35.350
Sushi on the go stucks. I
don't know if you're try to eat Sushi
186
00:13:35.389 --> 00:13:39.309
walking down the street or eat Sushi
in your car while you're dry, and
187
00:13:39.350 --> 00:13:41.820
like gets a disaster, right,
because the sauce everywhere and they're you know,
188
00:13:41.899 --> 00:13:46.379
Rice gets everywhere, and it doesn't. Sushi is not a good portable
189
00:13:46.379 --> 00:13:50.899
food, right. Yeah, closest
thing I that is those those premade Sushi
190
00:13:52.580 --> 00:13:56.570
containers of the grocery store. I'm
trying to eat something semihealthy, but yes,
191
00:13:56.409 --> 00:14:01.409
it's like mediocre at best. So
these guys create a new category and
192
00:14:01.570 --> 00:14:07.250
they call up the Sushi Rito.
They take the concept of a Burrito and
193
00:14:07.370 --> 00:14:11.879
they apply it to Sushi and therefore
they solve and the problem called how I
194
00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:15.240
eat Sushi on the go, and
they're killing it. And, like I
195
00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:18.399
said, they're six or seven of
them, they're growing very rapidly and they
196
00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:22.720
are not competing on the traditional dimensions. They're competing on a new dimension,
197
00:14:22.759 --> 00:14:26.710
which is, what's the best way
to eat Sushi on the go, to
198
00:14:26.110 --> 00:14:31.710
a Sushi Rito. And so they
have differentiated themselves, and I use that
199
00:14:31.789 --> 00:14:37.110
word very much on purpose, by
creating a new category of Sushi called the
200
00:14:37.230 --> 00:14:43.659
Sushirito, and there are now knockoffs
of the Sushirito who are trying to engage
201
00:14:43.700 --> 00:14:46.620
in a battle with them, saying, well, our sushirito tastes better than
202
00:14:46.659 --> 00:14:50.539
their sushirito. But, just like
the idiots at Pepsi, when you do
203
00:14:50.779 --> 00:14:54.210
that, when you rip off the
Sushirito, all you're doing is telling the
204
00:14:54.289 --> 00:15:00.049
world that the original sushirito is better
than my knockoff poser Sushirito. Right,
205
00:15:00.330 --> 00:15:05.409
and and yet this is the mistake
that entrepreneurs make over and over and over
206
00:15:05.529 --> 00:15:09.200
again. They are essentially doing a
copycat strategy. And my question is,
207
00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:13.080
why fit in when you can stand
out? Why not do something unique?
208
00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:18.639
If you look at every company,
every entrepreneur, every marketer, every brand,
209
00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:24.230
every artist, every scientist, every
political leader that you respect, admire,
210
00:15:24.230 --> 00:15:28.509
love and joy, they all share
some characteristics, and one of them
211
00:15:28.590 --> 00:15:35.820
is they broke or took new ground. They are viewed as being the first.
212
00:15:37.700 --> 00:15:41.740
Whether they were they weren't is irrelevant. But the reason we know who
213
00:15:41.740 --> 00:15:43.899
Picasso is and if you look at
his wikipedia page, in the first or
214
00:15:43.940 --> 00:15:48.860
second sentence it says he's the founder, he's the Godfather, he's the creator
215
00:15:48.220 --> 00:15:54.169
of a new type of art called
cubism. Well, we know his name.
216
00:15:54.490 --> 00:15:58.250
We don't know the eighty seven most
successful cubist artist in the world.
217
00:15:58.289 --> 00:16:00.649
We never heard of her. Right. We know who Bob Marley is.
218
00:16:02.169 --> 00:16:04.720
We don't know who the thirty two
most popular reggae band in the world is,
219
00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:10.879
because Bob Marley is the category designer
of a new category, a new
220
00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:17.399
type of music called Reggan. And
so my question for entrepreneurs, my question
221
00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:22.110
for marketers, is who would you
rather be? ACASSO or Marley, or
222
00:16:22.470 --> 00:16:26.470
the forty seven company? Would you
rather be Sushi Rito or the Fifth Sushi
223
00:16:26.470 --> 00:16:33.779
Rito Company? Imagine it, a
spreadsheet filled with rows and rows of your
224
00:16:33.820 --> 00:16:38.779
sales enablement assets. You've devoted two
years to organizing this masterpiece, only for
225
00:16:38.899 --> 00:16:44.299
it to stop making sense. This
was Chad trabuccos reality. As the head
226
00:16:44.340 --> 00:16:48.370
of sales enablement at glent a linkedin
company, he's responsible for instilling confidence in
227
00:16:48.490 --> 00:16:52.450
his sales reps and arming them with
the information they need to do their jobs.
228
00:16:52.809 --> 00:16:57.250
However, when his glorious spreadsheet became
too complex, he realized he needed
229
00:16:57.289 --> 00:17:02.240
a new system. That's when Chad
turned to guru. With Guru, the
230
00:17:02.360 --> 00:17:07.799
knowledge you need to do your job
finds you between Guru's Web interface slack integration,
231
00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:12.440
mobile APP and browser extension, teams
can easily search for verified knowledge without
232
00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:18.430
leaving their workflow. No more siload
or staled information. Guru acts as your
233
00:17:18.509 --> 00:17:22.390
single source of truth. For Chad, this meant glent sales reps were left
234
00:17:22.430 --> 00:17:27.109
feeling more confident doing their jobs.
See why leading companies like glint, shopify,
235
00:17:27.509 --> 00:17:33.339
spotify, slack and more are using
guru for their knowledge management needs.
236
00:17:33.819 --> 00:17:40.299
Visit BB growth dot get gurucom to
start your thirty day free trial and discover
237
00:17:40.619 --> 00:17:48.089
how knowledge management can empower your revenue
teams. Right, right. So I've
238
00:17:48.130 --> 00:17:52.049
heard a couple of comments on kind
of whether a category exists in kind of
239
00:17:52.089 --> 00:17:56.170
its nest and stages, and so
what I mean by that is for some
240
00:17:56.329 --> 00:18:00.319
folks say, well, it's not
really a category if you're the only company
241
00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:03.519
participating in that space. In order
for it to be a category, there
242
00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:08.640
has to be multiple companies participating.
Now at the same time there there still
243
00:18:08.680 --> 00:18:11.990
has to be a first because one
point that category should not exist, and
244
00:18:12.029 --> 00:18:15.630
then one company emerged, two,
three, four, five and so on.
245
00:18:15.269 --> 00:18:21.950
And so how do you balance that
dynamic of looking at a space wanting
246
00:18:22.109 --> 00:18:27.180
to be the first but also recognizing
that if others don't participate in that space,
247
00:18:27.259 --> 00:18:32.339
then maybe you haven't really designed a
category. Maybe you've just designed a
248
00:18:32.579 --> 00:18:36.819
unique position. And is that it
downside? Is that something negative you should
249
00:18:36.819 --> 00:18:40.140
look out for? Or maybe I'm
looking at things the wrong way? Yeah,
250
00:18:40.140 --> 00:18:44.849
it's a great question. So I
just had this conversation with an entrepreneur
251
00:18:45.250 --> 00:18:52.049
and he was going to name his
product and his category the same thing and
252
00:18:52.210 --> 00:18:56.119
he was going to trademark and I
said, well, if you trade market
253
00:18:56.119 --> 00:19:00.319
it won't become a category. Right. So iphone is a brand, smartphone
254
00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:06.119
is a category. Right, right, right, and so that's ultimately what
255
00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:08.920
you want. You want to have
a category name that you do not trademark
256
00:19:10.069 --> 00:19:15.190
and you absolutely want competition to rip
off. And here's the truth. Look,
257
00:19:15.230 --> 00:19:17.589
let me just say something. It
may not make me a lot of
258
00:19:17.630 --> 00:19:21.710
friends, but I'll say it anyway. Most people are freaking stupid. Most
259
00:19:21.789 --> 00:19:26.700
people are not creative, most people
are not innovative, most people don't do
260
00:19:26.140 --> 00:19:30.660
any real thinking, that is to
say, thinking about thinking is the most
261
00:19:30.700 --> 00:19:34.940
powerful thinking you can do, and
most people don't do thinking about thinking.
262
00:19:36.779 --> 00:19:41.369
My friend and mentor, Bich Vixen, said most people and most companies are
263
00:19:41.609 --> 00:19:48.809
living inside of somebody else's thinking.
And ultimately, category design is a way
264
00:19:48.890 --> 00:19:53.480
of thinking about new ways of having
a market category work in your favor.
265
00:19:53.720 --> 00:19:59.119
Right. And so, given all
of that, if you design a new
266
00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:04.680
category, you have evangelized that category
powerfully with a really creative, innovative point
267
00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:08.670
of view that frames a problem and
teaches the world to move from the way
268
00:20:08.670 --> 00:20:11.589
it is to the way you want
it to be. Don't drive to blockbuster,
269
00:20:11.710 --> 00:20:15.029
go to a website called Netflix and
just have the movies magically show up
270
00:20:15.029 --> 00:20:18.869
in your mail box. And course, today we stream. That's an idea,
271
00:20:19.190 --> 00:20:23.299
that's a point of view, right. And so here's the truth.
272
00:20:23.339 --> 00:20:29.220
If you have a powerful category design
that that and a point of view that
273
00:20:29.339 --> 00:20:33.740
delivers against that category design, then
your idiot competitors, when they see you
274
00:20:33.900 --> 00:20:37.730
having success, will rip you off. They will come and you want to
275
00:20:37.809 --> 00:20:44.529
welcome them. So you don't want
to look at competition as a negative.
276
00:20:44.569 --> 00:20:48.809
It's something you really want to foster
to help. Go back to that point
277
00:20:48.809 --> 00:20:52.680
you made earlier about as a category
leader, you don't want to market your
278
00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:56.400
product, you want to market the
category itself, and having competition really helps
279
00:20:56.440 --> 00:21:00.680
you do that. Yes, and
so the only way I want to compete
280
00:21:02.359 --> 00:21:06.190
is by having others compete with me. I don't want to compete with anybody
281
00:21:06.230 --> 00:21:08.670
else. So when somebody says,
well, who's your competition, my answer
282
00:21:08.789 --> 00:21:15.150
is always well, we don't have
any real direct competition. We do something
283
00:21:15.269 --> 00:21:18.109
different and that changes the conversation.
If I say to you, Hey,
284
00:21:18.150 --> 00:21:22.660
John, let's go to dinner tonight, and maybe you're visiting me here in
285
00:21:22.700 --> 00:21:26.140
Santa Cruz and I'm telling you about
some of my favorite restaurants in town,
286
00:21:26.259 --> 00:21:30.660
I say, and so I'm thinking
about maybe Italian or Sushi. which do
287
00:21:30.740 --> 00:21:34.809
you prefer? That forces a choice
in a way that you know I'm thinking
288
00:21:34.849 --> 00:21:41.049
about Italian or pizza. Doesn't force
a choice. You follow me? And
289
00:21:41.210 --> 00:21:45.930
so legendary entrepreneurs, the way they
want to compete is by having others compete
290
00:21:47.009 --> 00:21:52.480
with them. But we don't compete
with others. Sarah Blakeley, the founder
291
00:21:52.519 --> 00:21:56.480
of spanks, in the creator of
the shape, where category refuse to have
292
00:21:56.759 --> 00:22:03.069
her, and these are her words, innovation, her invention be thought of
293
00:22:03.109 --> 00:22:06.750
as a girdle. It's not a
girdle, it's shape, where it's a
294
00:22:06.829 --> 00:22:11.190
new invention. Those are her words
right, and the reality is it would
295
00:22:11.190 --> 00:22:15.900
have been very easy to position that
stuff as a girdle to dotto, and
296
00:22:15.099 --> 00:22:18.539
nobody wants a girdle, but hey, shape where? Wouldn't you like to
297
00:22:18.579 --> 00:22:23.619
be a little bit more shapely?
And she's the most wealthy, selfmade female
298
00:22:23.660 --> 00:22:30.210
billionaire in American history and it's because
she distinguished herself, because she did something
299
00:22:30.730 --> 00:22:34.490
different, and now there are shape
where competitors. Same thing with Lulu Lemon.
300
00:22:34.529 --> 00:22:37.009
I don't know about where you live, John, but sometimes I think
301
00:22:37.009 --> 00:22:41.329
in Santa Cruz County there's a law
that says twenty five percent of the women
302
00:22:41.410 --> 00:22:45.640
must be wearing lululemon pants at all
time. Yep, and they are the
303
00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:52.680
creators of a new category of clothing
called at leisure right. And now when
304
00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:57.950
women go to buy quote unquote,
Yoga Pants or athlets or clothes, they
305
00:22:57.990 --> 00:23:03.309
are the gold standard because they are, by definition, the category Queen.
306
00:23:03.309 --> 00:23:07.190
And so if you're not wearing Lulu, then you're not wearing the original stuff.
307
00:23:07.869 --> 00:23:12.539
They created a whole New Paradigm in
women's clothing. Now, had there
308
00:23:12.660 --> 00:23:18.500
been stretchy, spandexy, you know, close fitting pants for women before?
309
00:23:18.740 --> 00:23:23.460
Sure, they're had, course,
but they went out and evangelize this bath
310
00:23:23.660 --> 00:23:30.809
leisure lifestyle and tied their category to
an emerging I don't know if you want
311
00:23:30.849 --> 00:23:33.450
to call it sport or activity or
whatever you want to call it, called
312
00:23:33.450 --> 00:23:37.089
Yoga. And by doing those things, Bam, they created a whole new
313
00:23:37.289 --> 00:23:41.960
category of clothing where one did not
exist. And most people today, just
314
00:23:42.119 --> 00:23:45.480
like when, if I'm sneezy,
I m'd say to you, Hey,
315
00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:48.440
John, please pass me a clean
x, which, of course, is
316
00:23:48.599 --> 00:23:52.920
a brand name and the category is
called a tissue. Right, most people
317
00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:56.509
say, Oh, you know,
she's wearing Lulu lemon pants. She May
318
00:23:56.549 --> 00:24:00.789
or may not be wearing that brand. Lulu Lemon has become the clean x
319
00:24:02.670 --> 00:24:07.430
of Ath Leisure and Yoga Pants.
So Tesla a few years ago released the
320
00:24:07.789 --> 00:24:12.859
patents on its battery design and I
remember reading the commentary at the time and
321
00:24:12.940 --> 00:24:17.180
it was, I think, supporting
is the same idea of you know,
322
00:24:17.259 --> 00:24:21.819
Tesla didn't just want it to be
the only maker of electric cars. It
323
00:24:21.900 --> 00:24:26.369
really one of the electric car category
to grow and blossom innute new by releasing
324
00:24:26.450 --> 00:24:30.329
those patents it would help foster that. So is that kind of what you're
325
00:24:30.329 --> 00:24:34.049
talking about in terms of fostering competition
and not maybe a trademarking or keeping everything
326
00:24:34.089 --> 00:24:40.160
in house but allowing that you ecosystem
to thrive. Yes, absolutely, and
327
00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:45.599
I would say that Elon Musk is
one of the most exciting, natural intuitive
328
00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:52.480
category designers in our world today,
and he understood this that if I'm the
329
00:24:52.599 --> 00:24:59.509
only company evangelizing the electric car,
then this category might not go. I
330
00:24:59.869 --> 00:25:03.710
need to get the entire industry to
tip. I need to move the industry
331
00:25:03.710 --> 00:25:07.579
from the way it is fossil fuels
to the way I want it to be
332
00:25:08.099 --> 00:25:15.059
electricity, and I need the help
of competition to move a giant category in
333
00:25:15.259 --> 00:25:21.180
this newly design direction that I just
created. That's exactly what he was doing
334
00:25:21.220 --> 00:25:25.930
and it's pure genius and it's worked. Look at the number of new electric
335
00:25:25.970 --> 00:25:27.890
cars now. You could argue,
well, was that going to happen anyway?
336
00:25:27.970 --> 00:25:30.970
I don't know, but here's what
we do know. He evangelized the
337
00:25:32.369 --> 00:25:36.039
car, he prosecuted the Magic Triangle
that it's to say, Got Product Company
338
00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:41.400
in category right and, to your
point, he's purposely expanding the category by
339
00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:47.119
sharing some of the secrets with his
competitors so that they can collaborate with him
340
00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:52.829
making the category tip. So,
Chris, if I'm listening to this podcast
341
00:25:52.990 --> 00:25:59.029
and I'm entrepreneur and exact marketer thinking
about category design. How do I know
342
00:25:59.269 --> 00:26:03.500
if it's something my company should pursue? It's not something that necessary. Every
343
00:26:03.539 --> 00:26:07.259
company can we should pursue. Right, we don't need tenzero categories of products.
344
00:26:07.299 --> 00:26:11.539
But you know, how does someone
make that distinction of whether they go
345
00:26:11.579 --> 00:26:15.539
down this road or choose a different
path? Well then, look, you
346
00:26:15.619 --> 00:26:19.369
could argue I'm overly biased. I
think if you're not doing category design,
347
00:26:21.329 --> 00:26:26.849
you're an F and Moron on because
what you're declaring by saying we're not going
348
00:26:26.930 --> 00:26:30.849
to do that is, by definition, we're going to let somebody else decide
349
00:26:32.529 --> 00:26:37.640
what the problem is, what the
solution is and teach people about how to
350
00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:42.599
value that problem and solution. And
as a result of that, we are
351
00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:49.509
going to submit to having the company
that designs this category that we're in design
352
00:26:49.589 --> 00:26:53.269
it and take two thirds of the
economics and we will be one of the
353
00:26:53.390 --> 00:27:00.390
fifteen, twenty five, forty five, whatever competitors fighting for a quarter of
354
00:27:00.390 --> 00:27:03.299
the economics. So if you want
to just play for a quarter of the
355
00:27:03.380 --> 00:27:07.700
economics, well, somebody else sets
the rules in your industry, in your
356
00:27:07.859 --> 00:27:11.579
market, in your category I think
if you consciously make a frontal lobe decision
357
00:27:11.660 --> 00:27:15.809
to do that, you're an F
and moron. That's what I think.
358
00:27:15.329 --> 00:27:18.329
All right, love it, love
the I love the candor. So I
359
00:27:18.410 --> 00:27:22.009
want to ask you one last question. It's not a bad category design,
360
00:27:22.049 --> 00:27:25.930
or maybe it is, but you
know I'm here in Lexington and most of
361
00:27:25.970 --> 00:27:29.049
the world's Bourbon is made within a
couple hours of where I live and I
362
00:27:29.170 --> 00:27:33.720
know that you enjoy a kind of
seeing what's what's best in that space.
363
00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:37.240
So top three bourbons? Three,
two, one, go. You know
364
00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:41.880
I'm going to have a real lousy
answer. I kind of like them all.
365
00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:44.670
I mean I you know, I
drink a lot of scotch. I
366
00:27:45.150 --> 00:27:48.910
Love Bourbon. I think probably my
go to daily Bourbon. It is just
367
00:27:48.029 --> 00:27:52.829
a good old fashioned bullet bourbon.
I get in trouble with a lot of
368
00:27:52.910 --> 00:27:56.990
Scotch Guru guys because I like Jack
Daniels, I like a Jack and coke,
369
00:27:57.069 --> 00:28:00.460
I like gentleman's Jack, I like, I don't know if you've had
370
00:28:00.500 --> 00:28:03.900
the Frank Sinatra Jack. That's a
really fun one. And so I'm generally
371
00:28:04.059 --> 00:28:07.819
somebody who mixes it up. I
when I go into a bar. You
372
00:28:07.900 --> 00:28:12.089
know if they have a good bourbon
selection. I'll ask the OH, here's
373
00:28:12.529 --> 00:28:18.089
this great category design. Remember when
they used to be bartenders? Yeah,
374
00:28:18.690 --> 00:28:22.890
you know what they're called today where? They knows Ologists, Mix Ologists,
375
00:28:22.049 --> 00:28:25.930
right, that's what they are their
mixologist. When I was a kid,
376
00:28:25.970 --> 00:28:30.640
if you bought a secondhand car,
you are buying a used car. Today
377
00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:36.240
we don't buy youth cars, we
buy free owned cars. That's all category
378
00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:41.670
design. That those are people changing
thinking about a particular market category. Anyways,
379
00:28:41.710 --> 00:28:45.230
I digress. Like I said,
like Kevin said, category design is
380
00:28:45.269 --> 00:28:48.789
a new Lens on business and once
you have the lens you see categories everywhere.
381
00:28:48.829 --> 00:28:52.230
So, to get back to your
question, John, I will often
382
00:28:52.309 --> 00:28:53.950
go in and I will say to
the mix ologist, you know, you
383
00:28:55.029 --> 00:28:57.619
guys look like you have an awesome, awesome selection of whiskey and bourbons.
384
00:28:59.220 --> 00:29:00.140
What do you have this new?
What do you have that's exciting? What
385
00:29:00.220 --> 00:29:04.420
do you have that's interesting? What
should I try? And I generally don't
386
00:29:06.019 --> 00:29:10.730
have mixed drinks. Mixed drink for
me as a jack and Coke I get.
387
00:29:10.769 --> 00:29:12.450
If I'm going to drink a bourbon, I like it neat. I
388
00:29:12.609 --> 00:29:17.329
like my bourbon with Bourbon, just
like I like my coffee. I like
389
00:29:17.490 --> 00:29:21.490
coffee with coffee and I think putting
other I almost set a different word that
390
00:29:21.569 --> 00:29:25.759
begins with S, but I'll say
stuff in my bourbon or in my coffee
391
00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:29.799
is somewhat blasphemous. And Look,
I know, having spent time in Scotland
392
00:29:29.799 --> 00:29:32.839
and and so forth, there are
some experts that say you should really put
393
00:29:32.839 --> 00:29:34.200
a little water in there, a
little lice in there, quote unquote,
394
00:29:34.200 --> 00:29:37.519
open it up. I think all
that's BS. I like Bourbon. In
395
00:29:37.589 --> 00:29:41.069
my bourbon be good stuff. Yeah, well, it's kind of an interesting
396
00:29:41.109 --> 00:29:44.950
space to watch because it is very, very crowded. If you go to,
397
00:29:45.869 --> 00:29:48.589
you know, a liquor store around
here, you'll see literally hundreds of
398
00:29:48.670 --> 00:29:52.539
bourbons on the shelf and so every
once in a while you'll see someone who's
399
00:29:52.579 --> 00:29:56.500
trying to kind of reframe that conversation
or talk about a different bourbon or a
400
00:29:56.539 --> 00:30:02.180
different blend while still kind of remaining
two true to that kind of a heritage
401
00:30:02.180 --> 00:30:03.740
of Bourbon. So it's really interesting
to kind of see what ideas stick in
402
00:30:03.819 --> 00:30:07.930
which are just kind of flashes in
the Pan. And I love the innovation,
403
00:30:07.049 --> 00:30:11.809
the new category of Whiskey that I
love. It's least new to me.
404
00:30:11.849 --> 00:30:14.009
Maybe it's been going on for a
while and I didn't notice it.
405
00:30:14.250 --> 00:30:18.089
I'm not I don't follow it super
closely, but there is a whiskey that's
406
00:30:18.170 --> 00:30:26.119
made here in the Santa Cruz area
called Wayward Whiskey, and I joined their
407
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:29.759
club and I, you know,
get a selection of stuff from them every
408
00:30:29.799 --> 00:30:32.599
quarter and you got to go to
their place and pick it up, which
409
00:30:32.599 --> 00:30:34.640
is fun. It's just the other
side of town for me and I was
410
00:30:34.750 --> 00:30:41.150
in there a couple weeks ago John
and picking up my quarterly drop ship of
411
00:30:41.269 --> 00:30:45.910
Yummy and while I was in there
I noticed behind the bar, because they
412
00:30:45.910 --> 00:30:51.259
have a tasting area, they had
this very sort of dark ruby, almost
413
00:30:51.460 --> 00:30:56.299
blood ready looking whiskey and I'm sort
of trying to read the label. Anyway,
414
00:30:56.460 --> 00:31:02.660
long story longer. It's whiskey that
has been aged in pork barrels.
415
00:31:03.059 --> 00:31:07.609
Oh really, and I love port
and I love whiskey and I'll tell you,
416
00:31:07.170 --> 00:31:10.730
man, is this ever good.
I'm going to buy a case of
417
00:31:10.769 --> 00:31:15.650
it. It is absolutely outstanding.
And so right now my favorite go too
418
00:31:15.890 --> 00:31:19.480
is wayward whiskey aged in port barrels. Nice. So does that kind as
419
00:31:19.480 --> 00:31:23.079
a new category of whiskey or is
that just differentiation? It's new to me.
420
00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:26.480
I don't know if it if it's
if it's been a long standing category.
421
00:31:26.519 --> 00:31:30.000
I had never heard of it,
so I'm guessing it's new, but
422
00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:32.799
I can't tell you for sure.
But it certainly was new to me.
423
00:31:32.869 --> 00:31:36.869
I hadn't heard of anyone else doing
it. And if you start paying attention,
424
00:31:37.390 --> 00:31:41.589
you know you'll start to see new
categories all over the place. I
425
00:31:41.789 --> 00:31:44.349
just saw one. Let me see
if I can grab it for you quickly.
426
00:31:44.430 --> 00:31:49.740
A new category of Jerky. I
was in my favorite local, local
427
00:31:49.779 --> 00:31:55.140
store, local market. Yeah,
here it is Auhi Tuna Jerky Strips,
428
00:31:55.740 --> 00:32:01.329
wildcot cut, whole cut island karyaky
tuna jerk strips from a company called wildly
429
00:32:01.569 --> 00:32:07.849
responsible. So it's a Hei tuna
jerky strips. So there you getting.
430
00:32:07.089 --> 00:32:10.490
I'm getting kind of hungry and thirsty
just talking to you on this interviewer talking
431
00:32:10.490 --> 00:32:15.089
about Jerky in Bourbon, Coke Pepsi
earlier. Oh, lots of good stuff,
432
00:32:15.089 --> 00:32:17.039
Chris. Thanks so much for all
the advice you shared today. I
433
00:32:17.079 --> 00:32:22.440
could probably pick your brain for another
few hours, but just what you've shared
434
00:32:22.519 --> 00:32:25.720
so far has been tremendously valuable.
If someone wants to get in touch with
435
00:32:25.880 --> 00:32:30.109
you and ask you questions about category, to sign learn more about your work.
436
00:32:30.670 --> 00:32:37.309
What's the best way for them to
do that? Lockheadcom, lloc hbadcom,
437
00:32:37.670 --> 00:32:39.670
pockheadcom. Got It all right,
Chris. Thanks again. It was
438
00:32:39.869 --> 00:32:43.990
an honor to talk to you.
I really appreciate you being on the show.
439
00:32:44.299 --> 00:32:46.539
John, I'm stoked to be with
you. Thank you so much pleasure.
440
00:32:51.619 --> 00:32:54.700
We totally get it. We publish
a ton of content on this podcast
441
00:32:54.859 --> 00:32:58.930
and it can be a lot to
keep up with. That's why we've started
442
00:32:59.009 --> 00:33:02.569
the BB growth big three, a
no fluff email that boils down our three
443
00:33:02.690 --> 00:33:07.369
biggest takeaways from an entire week of
episodes. Sign up today at Sweet Fish
444
00:33:07.450 --> 00:33:14.200
Mediacom big three. That sweet PHISH
MEDIACOM Big Three