Jan. 28, 2020

#BestOf2019: One of the Dumbest Marketing Campaigns Ever w/ Christopher Lochhead

In this episode (part 2 of 2) of the #CategoryCreation series,  talks to , 3-time Silicon Valley CMO and host of the Legends and Losers Podcast. See why leading companies like Glint, Shopify, Spotify, Slack and more are using Guru for...

In this episode (part 2 of 2) of the #CategoryCreation series, John Rougeux talks to Christopher Lochhead, 3-time Silicon Valley CMO and host of the Legends and Losers Podcast.


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Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:08.310 Hey there, this is James Carberry, founder of sweet fish media and one 2 00:00:08.310 --> 00:00:11.189 of the cohosts of this show. For the last year and a half I've 3 00:00:11.189 --> 00:00:14.990 been working on my very first book. In the book I share the three 4 00:00:15.029 --> 00:00:18.910 part framework we've used as the foundation for our growth. Here is sweetfish. 5 00:00:19.350 --> 00:00:22.620 Now there are lots of companies that everised a bunch of money and have grown 6 00:00:22.699 --> 00:00:25.579 insanely fast, and we featured a lot of them here on the show. 7 00:00:26.339 --> 00:00:30.579 We've decided to bootstrap our business, which usually equates to pretty slow growth, 8 00:00:31.100 --> 00:00:34.700 but using the strategy outlined in the book, we are on pace to be 9 00:00:34.859 --> 00:00:38.649 one of inks fastest growing companies in two thousand and twenty. The book is 10 00:00:38.729 --> 00:00:42.729 called content based networking, how to instantly connect with anyone you want to know. 11 00:00:43.250 --> 00:00:45.329 If you're a fan of audio books like me, you can find the 12 00:00:45.369 --> 00:00:48.450 book on audible or if you like physical books, you can also find it 13 00:00:48.570 --> 00:00:54.359 on Amazon. Just search content based networking or James carberry CR be a ary 14 00:00:54.759 --> 00:00:58.759 in audible or Amazon and it should pop right up. All right, let's 15 00:00:58.759 --> 00:01:03.439 get into the show. Hey, everybody, logan with sweet fish here. 16 00:01:03.679 --> 00:01:07.629 It's a new year and at new decade and we're celebrating by rounding up the 17 00:01:07.750 --> 00:01:11.469 top twenty episodes as we look back on two thousand and nineteen. Will be 18 00:01:11.549 --> 00:01:15.950 sharing them here throughout the month of January in our Hashtag best of two thousand 19 00:01:15.989 --> 00:01:19.260 and nineteen series. We've reached the end of our top twenty countdown of the 20 00:01:19.340 --> 00:01:25.060 best episodes of two thousand and nineteen and today you hear from Christopher lockhead again. 21 00:01:25.340 --> 00:01:30.260 He did a two part series within the category creation series with John Rougie 22 00:01:30.340 --> 00:01:34.890 here on BB growth. Another great conversation with him. Is Why it comes 23 00:01:34.969 --> 00:01:38.569 in at number one in our best of two thousand and nineteen series. If 24 00:01:38.609 --> 00:01:42.890 you like this topic of category creation in category design, you may want to 25 00:01:42.930 --> 00:01:47.319 check out Christopher's own podcast. Follow you're different. It's one that I really 26 00:01:47.359 --> 00:01:52.000 enjoy and have been subscribed to lately as well. If you enjoyed this episode 27 00:01:52.040 --> 00:01:55.200 but you didn't catch all of the top twenty of two thousand and nineteen, 28 00:01:55.439 --> 00:01:59.799 you can go to sweet phish mediacoma blog, scroll down and look on the 29 00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:04.109 right hand side for Hashtag Best of two thousand and nineteen in the categories there 30 00:02:04.269 --> 00:02:07.469 and you'll find our top twenty episodes from all of two thousand and nineteen. 31 00:02:09.629 --> 00:02:14.469 Hi there and welcome to another episode of the Category Creation Series on the BDB 32 00:02:14.629 --> 00:02:19.500 growth show. I'm John Rougie. This is part two of our conversation with 33 00:02:19.620 --> 00:02:23.539 Chris Lockhead. If you haven't heard part one yet, pause your podcast player 34 00:02:23.580 --> 00:02:27.539 right now and check that at first there's some great foundational material in there about 35 00:02:27.620 --> 00:02:31.330 what category design is and why marketers should care about it. A quick refresher 36 00:02:31.370 --> 00:02:35.250 about Chris is in order first, though. Chris is the author of a 37 00:02:35.370 --> 00:02:38.530 play bigger, the go to book on category design. He's a widely accomplished 38 00:02:38.650 --> 00:02:44.289 silicon valley CMO and he's been described as the Bruce Willis of category design. 39 00:02:44.360 --> 00:02:47.599 In part one, Chris shared why he thinks category design is a marketing superpower, 40 00:02:49.080 --> 00:02:53.080 why the category kings tend to capture seventy six percent of the markets economics 41 00:02:53.159 --> 00:02:57.840 on average, and how legendary businesses need to design a great company, a 42 00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:01.110 great product and a great category. Now in part two will hear why Chris 43 00:03:01.270 --> 00:03:07.310 believes Pepsi's attempts to unseat Coke as the category king is one of the dumbest 44 00:03:07.469 --> 00:03:12.310 marketing efforts ever. Will hear what Pacasso can teach marketers about the importance of 45 00:03:12.389 --> 00:03:15.300 being different and we'll hear a Chris explain why trying to convince people that you 46 00:03:15.340 --> 00:03:19.939 are better than something else can actually work against you. Now, when we 47 00:03:20.020 --> 00:03:23.699 left off, Chris had just finished telling us how legendary companies spend more time 48 00:03:23.900 --> 00:03:29.610 on marketing the problem they're solving and less time marketing the products themselves. When 49 00:03:29.610 --> 00:03:32.210 we pick back up, all start by asking Chris for his take on whether 50 00:03:32.330 --> 00:03:38.210 aspiring category designers need a huge marketing budget worth category design can actually happen more 51 00:03:38.250 --> 00:03:43.120 organically. So, without further ADO, here is part two of our conversation 52 00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:49.560 with Chris lockhead. So you talked about defining this problem and marketing that versus 53 00:03:49.599 --> 00:03:53.680 the product itself. Does that process mean that you have to have a huge 54 00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:57.750 advertising budget, a huge team to support that, a big kind of Pr 55 00:03:57.830 --> 00:04:01.110 Push, or is it you know, equally or can it be effective if 56 00:04:01.189 --> 00:04:04.990 you kind of are taking it from a more of a grassroots approach or more 57 00:04:04.990 --> 00:04:10.340 of our own organic route? You can absolutely take the more organic route and 58 00:04:10.740 --> 00:04:15.660 Victor Victor Hugo famously said all the armies of the world cannot stop an idea 59 00:04:15.699 --> 00:04:19.980 whose time has come, and so in a lot of ways category design line 60 00:04:20.819 --> 00:04:28.209 is a process and approach to making it your time. And so as you 61 00:04:28.290 --> 00:04:31.290 go to execute from a marketing perspective, what you want to ask yourself is 62 00:04:31.850 --> 00:04:38.449 what's the best way to have my point of view about a problem and therefore 63 00:04:38.490 --> 00:04:44.639 a solution catch fire? And look, would having a two hundred and fifty 64 00:04:44.680 --> 00:04:47.959 million dollar marketing budget help? Sure, but you know, if you look 65 00:04:47.959 --> 00:04:53.110 at it, most startups don't have anywhere near that. And so the thing 66 00:04:53.189 --> 00:04:57.269 you got to ask yourself is, what are the ways in which I can 67 00:04:57.670 --> 00:05:02.350 move the thinking in the space to my agenda, and begin to ask yourself 68 00:05:02.389 --> 00:05:04.550 that. And you know, we can get into tactics if you like, 69 00:05:04.709 --> 00:05:09.420 John. There's a lot of ways to go after this thing, but fundamentally 70 00:05:09.420 --> 00:05:13.540 you're doing something different. But most people are doing is they're competing. They're 71 00:05:13.579 --> 00:05:16.660 competing on price, they're competing on speeds and feeds. My carbondingulators, and 72 00:05:16.699 --> 00:05:20.139 I'm going to use this word on purpose, better than your carbondingulator, and 73 00:05:20.339 --> 00:05:28.569 anybody who's having a better conversation has fallen into a product feature and price war, 74 00:05:29.170 --> 00:05:31.250 and that's always a race to the bottom. The other thing about this 75 00:05:31.449 --> 00:05:38.639 word better is when I say my products better than your product, what's left 76 00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:44.040 in everybody's mind, is your product better? Is a comparison game. And 77 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:46.399 so you know, right now, I don't know if you've seen this, 78 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:51.509 add the idiots at Pepsi are spending God unknown millions of dollars on a new 79 00:05:51.589 --> 00:05:57.550 campaign with the guy from the office. And which guy? I don't want 80 00:05:57.550 --> 00:06:00.029 a slot of TV. which which got the main guy? Steve Carrell, 81 00:06:00.509 --> 00:06:04.420 Sieve Kraft? Yeah, and the first set of ads have this are, 82 00:06:04.579 --> 00:06:08.699 I think, in a diner, if I'm remembering right, and the waiter, 83 00:06:08.939 --> 00:06:11.579 waitress, comes up to these folks and says, you know what, 84 00:06:11.740 --> 00:06:14.100 can I get you to drink? And they say, you know, we'd 85 00:06:14.139 --> 00:06:17.379 like a coke, and the waiter says will Pepsi do or is Pepsi all 86 00:06:17.420 --> 00:06:21.329 right, or something like this, and then this actor gets up and says, 87 00:06:21.449 --> 00:06:25.170 is Pepsi All Right? Well, Pepsi's Awesome and it's this and it's 88 00:06:25.209 --> 00:06:30.009 that and and I'm sitting there going you dumb efforts. You guys are so 89 00:06:30.410 --> 00:06:35.600 stupid, because the minute he says well, Pepsi's who do you mean? 90 00:06:35.720 --> 00:06:41.920 Pepsi's all right, they're comparing himself to coke. And so whenever we compare 91 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:45.800 ourselves to somebody else. What's left in the mind of the customer, the 92 00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:48.910 consumer, the buyer, is the thing that we are comparing ourselves to, 93 00:06:49.350 --> 00:06:55.069 as opposed to our own unique space. And so all they're doing with this 94 00:06:55.629 --> 00:07:00.230 multi zillion dollar campaign is telling the entire world that coke is a category king 95 00:07:00.430 --> 00:07:05.579 and we're not. It's the dumbest marketing campaign maybe in history, and that's 96 00:07:05.660 --> 00:07:12.420 the trap that everybody falls into. This this comparison game, and all the 97 00:07:12.500 --> 00:07:15.930 comparison game does is valid that the company, end or product you're comparing yourself 98 00:07:16.050 --> 00:07:20.449 to is the category King and you're not. So it really works against you 99 00:07:20.529 --> 00:07:25.810 because you're you're having the conversation on someone else's terms instead of your own. 100 00:07:26.449 --> 00:07:30.560 Yes, and you're also the game is wired against you because the rules have 101 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:34.519 been created by somebody else. The minute go Joe Industry says, well, 102 00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:40.959 it's not about how do I wash my hands, it's about how do I 103 00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:46.310 get my hands clean in the absence of water. They have redesigned the way 104 00:07:46.430 --> 00:07:50.670 we think about it. Yeah, it's it's funny you mentioned that coke and 105 00:07:50.709 --> 00:07:56.550 pepsie example, because a few decades ago they did that famous kind of taste 106 00:07:56.709 --> 00:08:00.339 test campaign where they talked about how Pepsi tastes better than coke, which is 107 00:08:01.060 --> 00:08:03.420 exactly kind of going against what you talked about earlier. It's a, says, 108 00:08:03.540 --> 00:08:07.139 subjective, but they're trying to positions. They were. They were trying 109 00:08:07.180 --> 00:08:11.300 to position Pepsi as kind of an objective better a product than coke, and 110 00:08:11.379 --> 00:08:15.170 then, you know, thirty years later they're still finding the same battle. 111 00:08:15.410 --> 00:08:18.730 Yeah, the other thing that the the category does, of course, is 112 00:08:18.529 --> 00:08:24.170 they look at who number one is and they assume that number one is the 113 00:08:24.209 --> 00:08:28.040 best product. That's the assumption that you and I make. The other thing 114 00:08:28.079 --> 00:08:31.519 that's interesting if you get into the human psychology of it, John, is 115 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:37.480 human beings are pack animals. We don't want to be an outlier because if 116 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:41.509 there's ten of us together in the woods and two of us are away over 117 00:08:41.629 --> 00:08:45.789 here and eight of us are over there, the two that are way over 118 00:08:45.950 --> 00:08:50.070 here are the ones more likely to get eaten by the bear. And so 119 00:08:50.590 --> 00:08:56.860 every user of zoom makes potential users of zoom more comfortable that zoom is what 120 00:08:56.899 --> 00:09:03.019 I should do. And so human beings are heard or pack animals, and 121 00:09:03.220 --> 00:09:09.179 so we are comforted by buying the product or service that is the category King. 122 00:09:09.220 --> 00:09:11.169 Yeah, it's like I think in the book you mentioned, it's kind 123 00:09:11.210 --> 00:09:18.090 of a self reinforcing cycle where the category king is seen as, like you 124 00:09:18.129 --> 00:09:20.730 said, the best product and then people buy that product or that service because 125 00:09:20.769 --> 00:09:26.799 it's perceived as the best and it just continues to cycle itself or drive itself 126 00:09:26.840 --> 00:09:30.480 from there. And I know one of the other points you made is when 127 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:35.879 companies are faced with a potentially new category that's coming to market, there's a 128 00:09:35.960 --> 00:09:39.149 real need for them to take the initiative and define that because if they don't, 129 00:09:39.470 --> 00:09:43.590 someone else is going to do that and we'll be caught in kind of 130 00:09:43.629 --> 00:09:46.789 a secondary position. You tell me a little bit more about that? Yeah, 131 00:09:46.789 --> 00:09:48.470 I'll give you one that has been going on the tech industry for a 132 00:09:48.549 --> 00:09:52.299 long time. A lot of people say email sucks, I hate email. 133 00:09:52.460 --> 00:09:56.379 When somebody going to reimagine email, and this has been tried many, many 134 00:09:56.419 --> 00:10:01.700 times, and the reason that no one's been able to displace email, even 135 00:10:01.740 --> 00:10:07.090 though many of us agree that the email paradigm is not maybe the greatest paradigm, 136 00:10:07.129 --> 00:10:13.049 is because everyone that has tried to take out email has been using email 137 00:10:13.090 --> 00:10:16.210 as the point of reference. Right. So if I say to you, 138 00:10:16.210 --> 00:10:20.409 Hey, John don't think about pink dinosaurs, whatever you do. No, 139 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:24.799 no, pink dinosaurs. Don't think about pink dinosaurs. You can think about 140 00:10:24.840 --> 00:10:26.360 anything you want to think about, but not a pink dinosaur. You can 141 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:30.279 create any animal you want, any color you want, but just no pink 142 00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:33.200 dinosaurs. What's in your mind? Yeah, of course pink dinosaurs. Right. 143 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:37.830 And so the reality is, if the problem is how do we have 144 00:10:37.909 --> 00:10:45.070 an asynchronous communication that shows up as a time based feed in an inbox? 145 00:10:45.669 --> 00:10:50.820 Well, email wins and everybody who has tried to take out email for the 146 00:10:50.940 --> 00:10:56.100 most part has lived inside of the framing of the problem that is email. 147 00:10:56.700 --> 00:11:01.379 And until you reframe the problem, no one's going to take out email. 148 00:11:01.779 --> 00:11:03.730 that. Does that make any sense? Huhn? Yeah, it's like you're 149 00:11:05.090 --> 00:11:09.289 you're talking about your offering in terms of the kind of the wrong problem. 150 00:11:09.330 --> 00:11:11.850 You're talking about why it's better than something else. That kind of goes back 151 00:11:11.889 --> 00:11:15.889 to that cooke versus Pepsi example. It's like you're setting the stage of you 152 00:11:16.009 --> 00:11:18.919 know, this is why what we're doing is better than email. Out All 153 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:22.480 of a sudden someone has to maybe give up emails to use this new thing, 154 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:26.120 which poses a huge kind of mental barrier that they have to get through 155 00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:31.159 and instead of taking them to maybe a new way of communicating and reframing a 156 00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:35.870 different style, maybe synchronous, you know, were non time based perhaps, 157 00:11:35.950 --> 00:11:41.110 but like that, that shift is it hasn't happened. They're like they're talking 158 00:11:41.149 --> 00:11:43.870 about something that is is working against them. They don't really have a way 159 00:11:45.669 --> 00:11:48.539 to talk about what they're doing in in a way that maybe compliments email or 160 00:11:48.700 --> 00:11:52.500 goes on top of email or kind of benefits you in some other way. 161 00:11:52.820 --> 00:11:54.700 Yeah, I'll give you a simple example that I think certainly I can relate 162 00:11:54.740 --> 00:11:58.740 to, maybe most people can as well. There's a small chain of restaurants 163 00:11:58.779 --> 00:12:05.809 in the San Francisco Bay area Sushi restaurants. Now, you think about Sushi 164 00:12:05.929 --> 00:12:09.769 restaurant as a category, it's a wellknown category. If I say to you, 165 00:12:09.850 --> 00:12:13.889 Hey, John, we're going out tonight for Sushi, you have a 166 00:12:13.970 --> 00:12:16.159 picture in your mind of what that's probably going to look like, right. 167 00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:22.000 Yeah, this company said we're not going to solve a problem called how do 168 00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:26.320 you make great Sushi, which is the problem that most people look at when 169 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:30.190 they open a Sushi restaurant. Maybe they and maybe they think how we got 170 00:12:30.230 --> 00:12:33.470 to make great Sushi and make money doing maybe they look at it that way 171 00:12:33.509 --> 00:12:35.870 anyway. However they look at it, is how they look at it, 172 00:12:35.990 --> 00:12:39.029 and they do what most Sushi restaurant entrepreneurs do, which is they compete on 173 00:12:39.750 --> 00:12:43.779 how awesome our Sushi is, the location of our restaurant, how awesome our 174 00:12:43.820 --> 00:12:48.100 staff is and the value that we deliver ie, you know, price for 175 00:12:48.179 --> 00:12:54.019 quality is good, and they they accept those kinds of dimensions, if you 176 00:12:54.139 --> 00:12:58.330 will, of competition as the only way to compete. And what they what 177 00:12:58.490 --> 00:13:03.289 they hope for, because they're artists, because there their chefs, is that 178 00:13:03.450 --> 00:13:07.090 when they open their restaurant, people are going to say, wow, that's 179 00:13:07.129 --> 00:13:11.049 the best Sushi I ever tasted. That's how most entrepreneurs think, and that's 180 00:13:11.049 --> 00:13:13.960 how tech entrepreneurs think as well. All, that's the greatest algorithm ever. 181 00:13:15.159 --> 00:13:18.559 Right, Oh wow, I've never seen a carbon ingulator so fast and so 182 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:22.559 elegant. Right, that's what they're all trying to build. So this small 183 00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:26.230 chain of Sushi restaurants reimagine the problem, and here's how they reimagined it. 184 00:13:26.309 --> 00:13:31.590 They said, we love Sushi and we love eating on the go, but 185 00:13:31.070 --> 00:13:35.350 Sushi on the go stucks. I don't know if you're try to eat Sushi 186 00:13:35.389 --> 00:13:39.309 walking down the street or eat Sushi in your car while you're dry, and 187 00:13:39.350 --> 00:13:41.820 like gets a disaster, right, because the sauce everywhere and they're you know, 188 00:13:41.899 --> 00:13:46.379 Rice gets everywhere, and it doesn't. Sushi is not a good portable 189 00:13:46.379 --> 00:13:50.899 food, right. Yeah, closest thing I that is those those premade Sushi 190 00:13:52.580 --> 00:13:56.570 containers of the grocery store. I'm trying to eat something semihealthy, but yes, 191 00:13:56.409 --> 00:14:01.409 it's like mediocre at best. So these guys create a new category and 192 00:14:01.570 --> 00:14:07.250 they call up the Sushi Rito. They take the concept of a Burrito and 193 00:14:07.370 --> 00:14:11.879 they apply it to Sushi and therefore they solve and the problem called how I 194 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:15.240 eat Sushi on the go, and they're killing it. And, like I 195 00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:18.399 said, they're six or seven of them, they're growing very rapidly and they 196 00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:22.720 are not competing on the traditional dimensions. They're competing on a new dimension, 197 00:14:22.759 --> 00:14:26.710 which is, what's the best way to eat Sushi on the go, to 198 00:14:26.110 --> 00:14:31.710 a Sushi Rito. And so they have differentiated themselves, and I use that 199 00:14:31.789 --> 00:14:37.110 word very much on purpose, by creating a new category of Sushi called the 200 00:14:37.230 --> 00:14:43.659 Sushirito, and there are now knockoffs of the Sushirito who are trying to engage 201 00:14:43.700 --> 00:14:46.620 in a battle with them, saying, well, our sushirito tastes better than 202 00:14:46.659 --> 00:14:50.539 their sushirito. But, just like the idiots at Pepsi, when you do 203 00:14:50.779 --> 00:14:54.210 that, when you rip off the Sushirito, all you're doing is telling the 204 00:14:54.289 --> 00:15:00.049 world that the original sushirito is better than my knockoff poser Sushirito. Right, 205 00:15:00.330 --> 00:15:05.409 and and yet this is the mistake that entrepreneurs make over and over and over 206 00:15:05.529 --> 00:15:09.200 again. They are essentially doing a copycat strategy. And my question is, 207 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:13.080 why fit in when you can stand out? Why not do something unique? 208 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:18.639 If you look at every company, every entrepreneur, every marketer, every brand, 209 00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:24.230 every artist, every scientist, every political leader that you respect, admire, 210 00:15:24.230 --> 00:15:28.509 love and joy, they all share some characteristics, and one of them 211 00:15:28.590 --> 00:15:35.820 is they broke or took new ground. They are viewed as being the first. 212 00:15:37.700 --> 00:15:41.740 Whether they were they weren't is irrelevant. But the reason we know who 213 00:15:41.740 --> 00:15:43.899 Picasso is and if you look at his wikipedia page, in the first or 214 00:15:43.940 --> 00:15:48.860 second sentence it says he's the founder, he's the Godfather, he's the creator 215 00:15:48.220 --> 00:15:54.169 of a new type of art called cubism. Well, we know his name. 216 00:15:54.490 --> 00:15:58.250 We don't know the eighty seven most successful cubist artist in the world. 217 00:15:58.289 --> 00:16:00.649 We never heard of her. Right. We know who Bob Marley is. 218 00:16:02.169 --> 00:16:04.720 We don't know who the thirty two most popular reggae band in the world is, 219 00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:10.879 because Bob Marley is the category designer of a new category, a new 220 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:17.399 type of music called Reggan. And so my question for entrepreneurs, my question 221 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:22.110 for marketers, is who would you rather be? ACASSO or Marley, or 222 00:16:22.470 --> 00:16:26.470 the forty seven company? Would you rather be Sushi Rito or the Fifth Sushi 223 00:16:26.470 --> 00:16:33.779 Rito Company? Imagine it, a spreadsheet filled with rows and rows of your 224 00:16:33.820 --> 00:16:38.779 sales enablement assets. You've devoted two years to organizing this masterpiece, only for 225 00:16:38.899 --> 00:16:44.299 it to stop making sense. This was Chad trabuccos reality. As the head 226 00:16:44.340 --> 00:16:48.370 of sales enablement at glent a linkedin company, he's responsible for instilling confidence in 227 00:16:48.490 --> 00:16:52.450 his sales reps and arming them with the information they need to do their jobs. 228 00:16:52.809 --> 00:16:57.250 However, when his glorious spreadsheet became too complex, he realized he needed 229 00:16:57.289 --> 00:17:02.240 a new system. That's when Chad turned to guru. With Guru, the 230 00:17:02.360 --> 00:17:07.799 knowledge you need to do your job finds you between Guru's Web interface slack integration, 231 00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:12.440 mobile APP and browser extension, teams can easily search for verified knowledge without 232 00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:18.430 leaving their workflow. No more siload or staled information. Guru acts as your 233 00:17:18.509 --> 00:17:22.390 single source of truth. For Chad, this meant glent sales reps were left 234 00:17:22.430 --> 00:17:27.109 feeling more confident doing their jobs. See why leading companies like glint, shopify, 235 00:17:27.509 --> 00:17:33.339 spotify, slack and more are using guru for their knowledge management needs. 236 00:17:33.819 --> 00:17:40.299 Visit BB growth dot get gurucom to start your thirty day free trial and discover 237 00:17:40.619 --> 00:17:48.089 how knowledge management can empower your revenue teams. Right, right. So I've 238 00:17:48.130 --> 00:17:52.049 heard a couple of comments on kind of whether a category exists in kind of 239 00:17:52.089 --> 00:17:56.170 its nest and stages, and so what I mean by that is for some 240 00:17:56.329 --> 00:18:00.319 folks say, well, it's not really a category if you're the only company 241 00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:03.519 participating in that space. In order for it to be a category, there 242 00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:08.640 has to be multiple companies participating. Now at the same time there there still 243 00:18:08.680 --> 00:18:11.990 has to be a first because one point that category should not exist, and 244 00:18:12.029 --> 00:18:15.630 then one company emerged, two, three, four, five and so on. 245 00:18:15.269 --> 00:18:21.950 And so how do you balance that dynamic of looking at a space wanting 246 00:18:22.109 --> 00:18:27.180 to be the first but also recognizing that if others don't participate in that space, 247 00:18:27.259 --> 00:18:32.339 then maybe you haven't really designed a category. Maybe you've just designed a 248 00:18:32.579 --> 00:18:36.819 unique position. And is that it downside? Is that something negative you should 249 00:18:36.819 --> 00:18:40.140 look out for? Or maybe I'm looking at things the wrong way? Yeah, 250 00:18:40.140 --> 00:18:44.849 it's a great question. So I just had this conversation with an entrepreneur 251 00:18:45.250 --> 00:18:52.049 and he was going to name his product and his category the same thing and 252 00:18:52.210 --> 00:18:56.119 he was going to trademark and I said, well, if you trade market 253 00:18:56.119 --> 00:19:00.319 it won't become a category. Right. So iphone is a brand, smartphone 254 00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:06.119 is a category. Right, right, right, and so that's ultimately what 255 00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:08.920 you want. You want to have a category name that you do not trademark 256 00:19:10.069 --> 00:19:15.190 and you absolutely want competition to rip off. And here's the truth. Look, 257 00:19:15.230 --> 00:19:17.589 let me just say something. It may not make me a lot of 258 00:19:17.630 --> 00:19:21.710 friends, but I'll say it anyway. Most people are freaking stupid. Most 259 00:19:21.789 --> 00:19:26.700 people are not creative, most people are not innovative, most people don't do 260 00:19:26.140 --> 00:19:30.660 any real thinking, that is to say, thinking about thinking is the most 261 00:19:30.700 --> 00:19:34.940 powerful thinking you can do, and most people don't do thinking about thinking. 262 00:19:36.779 --> 00:19:41.369 My friend and mentor, Bich Vixen, said most people and most companies are 263 00:19:41.609 --> 00:19:48.809 living inside of somebody else's thinking. And ultimately, category design is a way 264 00:19:48.890 --> 00:19:53.480 of thinking about new ways of having a market category work in your favor. 265 00:19:53.720 --> 00:19:59.119 Right. And so, given all of that, if you design a new 266 00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:04.680 category, you have evangelized that category powerfully with a really creative, innovative point 267 00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:08.670 of view that frames a problem and teaches the world to move from the way 268 00:20:08.670 --> 00:20:11.589 it is to the way you want it to be. Don't drive to blockbuster, 269 00:20:11.710 --> 00:20:15.029 go to a website called Netflix and just have the movies magically show up 270 00:20:15.029 --> 00:20:18.869 in your mail box. And course, today we stream. That's an idea, 271 00:20:19.190 --> 00:20:23.299 that's a point of view, right. And so here's the truth. 272 00:20:23.339 --> 00:20:29.220 If you have a powerful category design that that and a point of view that 273 00:20:29.339 --> 00:20:33.740 delivers against that category design, then your idiot competitors, when they see you 274 00:20:33.900 --> 00:20:37.730 having success, will rip you off. They will come and you want to 275 00:20:37.809 --> 00:20:44.529 welcome them. So you don't want to look at competition as a negative. 276 00:20:44.569 --> 00:20:48.809 It's something you really want to foster to help. Go back to that point 277 00:20:48.809 --> 00:20:52.680 you made earlier about as a category leader, you don't want to market your 278 00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:56.400 product, you want to market the category itself, and having competition really helps 279 00:20:56.440 --> 00:21:00.680 you do that. Yes, and so the only way I want to compete 280 00:21:02.359 --> 00:21:06.190 is by having others compete with me. I don't want to compete with anybody 281 00:21:06.230 --> 00:21:08.670 else. So when somebody says, well, who's your competition, my answer 282 00:21:08.789 --> 00:21:15.150 is always well, we don't have any real direct competition. We do something 283 00:21:15.269 --> 00:21:18.109 different and that changes the conversation. If I say to you, Hey, 284 00:21:18.150 --> 00:21:22.660 John, let's go to dinner tonight, and maybe you're visiting me here in 285 00:21:22.700 --> 00:21:26.140 Santa Cruz and I'm telling you about some of my favorite restaurants in town, 286 00:21:26.259 --> 00:21:30.660 I say, and so I'm thinking about maybe Italian or Sushi. which do 287 00:21:30.740 --> 00:21:34.809 you prefer? That forces a choice in a way that you know I'm thinking 288 00:21:34.849 --> 00:21:41.049 about Italian or pizza. Doesn't force a choice. You follow me? And 289 00:21:41.210 --> 00:21:45.930 so legendary entrepreneurs, the way they want to compete is by having others compete 290 00:21:47.009 --> 00:21:52.480 with them. But we don't compete with others. Sarah Blakeley, the founder 291 00:21:52.519 --> 00:21:56.480 of spanks, in the creator of the shape, where category refuse to have 292 00:21:56.759 --> 00:22:03.069 her, and these are her words, innovation, her invention be thought of 293 00:22:03.109 --> 00:22:06.750 as a girdle. It's not a girdle, it's shape, where it's a 294 00:22:06.829 --> 00:22:11.190 new invention. Those are her words right, and the reality is it would 295 00:22:11.190 --> 00:22:15.900 have been very easy to position that stuff as a girdle to dotto, and 296 00:22:15.099 --> 00:22:18.539 nobody wants a girdle, but hey, shape where? Wouldn't you like to 297 00:22:18.579 --> 00:22:23.619 be a little bit more shapely? And she's the most wealthy, selfmade female 298 00:22:23.660 --> 00:22:30.210 billionaire in American history and it's because she distinguished herself, because she did something 299 00:22:30.730 --> 00:22:34.490 different, and now there are shape where competitors. Same thing with Lulu Lemon. 300 00:22:34.529 --> 00:22:37.009 I don't know about where you live, John, but sometimes I think 301 00:22:37.009 --> 00:22:41.329 in Santa Cruz County there's a law that says twenty five percent of the women 302 00:22:41.410 --> 00:22:45.640 must be wearing lululemon pants at all time. Yep, and they are the 303 00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:52.680 creators of a new category of clothing called at leisure right. And now when 304 00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:57.950 women go to buy quote unquote, Yoga Pants or athlets or clothes, they 305 00:22:57.990 --> 00:23:03.309 are the gold standard because they are, by definition, the category Queen. 306 00:23:03.309 --> 00:23:07.190 And so if you're not wearing Lulu, then you're not wearing the original stuff. 307 00:23:07.869 --> 00:23:12.539 They created a whole New Paradigm in women's clothing. Now, had there 308 00:23:12.660 --> 00:23:18.500 been stretchy, spandexy, you know, close fitting pants for women before? 309 00:23:18.740 --> 00:23:23.460 Sure, they're had, course, but they went out and evangelize this bath 310 00:23:23.660 --> 00:23:30.809 leisure lifestyle and tied their category to an emerging I don't know if you want 311 00:23:30.849 --> 00:23:33.450 to call it sport or activity or whatever you want to call it, called 312 00:23:33.450 --> 00:23:37.089 Yoga. And by doing those things, Bam, they created a whole new 313 00:23:37.289 --> 00:23:41.960 category of clothing where one did not exist. And most people today, just 314 00:23:42.119 --> 00:23:45.480 like when, if I'm sneezy, I m'd say to you, Hey, 315 00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:48.440 John, please pass me a clean x, which, of course, is 316 00:23:48.599 --> 00:23:52.920 a brand name and the category is called a tissue. Right, most people 317 00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:56.509 say, Oh, you know, she's wearing Lulu lemon pants. She May 318 00:23:56.549 --> 00:24:00.789 or may not be wearing that brand. Lulu Lemon has become the clean x 319 00:24:02.670 --> 00:24:07.430 of Ath Leisure and Yoga Pants. So Tesla a few years ago released the 320 00:24:07.789 --> 00:24:12.859 patents on its battery design and I remember reading the commentary at the time and 321 00:24:12.940 --> 00:24:17.180 it was, I think, supporting is the same idea of you know, 322 00:24:17.259 --> 00:24:21.819 Tesla didn't just want it to be the only maker of electric cars. It 323 00:24:21.900 --> 00:24:26.369 really one of the electric car category to grow and blossom innute new by releasing 324 00:24:26.450 --> 00:24:30.329 those patents it would help foster that. So is that kind of what you're 325 00:24:30.329 --> 00:24:34.049 talking about in terms of fostering competition and not maybe a trademarking or keeping everything 326 00:24:34.089 --> 00:24:40.160 in house but allowing that you ecosystem to thrive. Yes, absolutely, and 327 00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:45.599 I would say that Elon Musk is one of the most exciting, natural intuitive 328 00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:52.480 category designers in our world today, and he understood this that if I'm the 329 00:24:52.599 --> 00:24:59.509 only company evangelizing the electric car, then this category might not go. I 330 00:24:59.869 --> 00:25:03.710 need to get the entire industry to tip. I need to move the industry 331 00:25:03.710 --> 00:25:07.579 from the way it is fossil fuels to the way I want it to be 332 00:25:08.099 --> 00:25:15.059 electricity, and I need the help of competition to move a giant category in 333 00:25:15.259 --> 00:25:21.180 this newly design direction that I just created. That's exactly what he was doing 334 00:25:21.220 --> 00:25:25.930 and it's pure genius and it's worked. Look at the number of new electric 335 00:25:25.970 --> 00:25:27.890 cars now. You could argue, well, was that going to happen anyway? 336 00:25:27.970 --> 00:25:30.970 I don't know, but here's what we do know. He evangelized the 337 00:25:32.369 --> 00:25:36.039 car, he prosecuted the Magic Triangle that it's to say, Got Product Company 338 00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:41.400 in category right and, to your point, he's purposely expanding the category by 339 00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:47.119 sharing some of the secrets with his competitors so that they can collaborate with him 340 00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:52.829 making the category tip. So, Chris, if I'm listening to this podcast 341 00:25:52.990 --> 00:25:59.029 and I'm entrepreneur and exact marketer thinking about category design. How do I know 342 00:25:59.269 --> 00:26:03.500 if it's something my company should pursue? It's not something that necessary. Every 343 00:26:03.539 --> 00:26:07.259 company can we should pursue. Right, we don't need tenzero categories of products. 344 00:26:07.299 --> 00:26:11.539 But you know, how does someone make that distinction of whether they go 345 00:26:11.579 --> 00:26:15.539 down this road or choose a different path? Well then, look, you 346 00:26:15.619 --> 00:26:19.369 could argue I'm overly biased. I think if you're not doing category design, 347 00:26:21.329 --> 00:26:26.849 you're an F and Moron on because what you're declaring by saying we're not going 348 00:26:26.930 --> 00:26:30.849 to do that is, by definition, we're going to let somebody else decide 349 00:26:32.529 --> 00:26:37.640 what the problem is, what the solution is and teach people about how to 350 00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:42.599 value that problem and solution. And as a result of that, we are 351 00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:49.509 going to submit to having the company that designs this category that we're in design 352 00:26:49.589 --> 00:26:53.269 it and take two thirds of the economics and we will be one of the 353 00:26:53.390 --> 00:27:00.390 fifteen, twenty five, forty five, whatever competitors fighting for a quarter of 354 00:27:00.390 --> 00:27:03.299 the economics. So if you want to just play for a quarter of the 355 00:27:03.380 --> 00:27:07.700 economics, well, somebody else sets the rules in your industry, in your 356 00:27:07.859 --> 00:27:11.579 market, in your category I think if you consciously make a frontal lobe decision 357 00:27:11.660 --> 00:27:15.809 to do that, you're an F and moron. That's what I think. 358 00:27:15.329 --> 00:27:18.329 All right, love it, love the I love the candor. So I 359 00:27:18.410 --> 00:27:22.009 want to ask you one last question. It's not a bad category design, 360 00:27:22.049 --> 00:27:25.930 or maybe it is, but you know I'm here in Lexington and most of 361 00:27:25.970 --> 00:27:29.049 the world's Bourbon is made within a couple hours of where I live and I 362 00:27:29.170 --> 00:27:33.720 know that you enjoy a kind of seeing what's what's best in that space. 363 00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:37.240 So top three bourbons? Three, two, one, go. You know 364 00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:41.880 I'm going to have a real lousy answer. I kind of like them all. 365 00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:44.670 I mean I you know, I drink a lot of scotch. I 366 00:27:45.150 --> 00:27:48.910 Love Bourbon. I think probably my go to daily Bourbon. It is just 367 00:27:48.029 --> 00:27:52.829 a good old fashioned bullet bourbon. I get in trouble with a lot of 368 00:27:52.910 --> 00:27:56.990 Scotch Guru guys because I like Jack Daniels, I like a Jack and coke, 369 00:27:57.069 --> 00:28:00.460 I like gentleman's Jack, I like, I don't know if you've had 370 00:28:00.500 --> 00:28:03.900 the Frank Sinatra Jack. That's a really fun one. And so I'm generally 371 00:28:04.059 --> 00:28:07.819 somebody who mixes it up. I when I go into a bar. You 372 00:28:07.900 --> 00:28:12.089 know if they have a good bourbon selection. I'll ask the OH, here's 373 00:28:12.529 --> 00:28:18.089 this great category design. Remember when they used to be bartenders? Yeah, 374 00:28:18.690 --> 00:28:22.890 you know what they're called today where? They knows Ologists, Mix Ologists, 375 00:28:22.049 --> 00:28:25.930 right, that's what they are their mixologist. When I was a kid, 376 00:28:25.970 --> 00:28:30.640 if you bought a secondhand car, you are buying a used car. Today 377 00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:36.240 we don't buy youth cars, we buy free owned cars. That's all category 378 00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:41.670 design. That those are people changing thinking about a particular market category. Anyways, 379 00:28:41.710 --> 00:28:45.230 I digress. Like I said, like Kevin said, category design is 380 00:28:45.269 --> 00:28:48.789 a new Lens on business and once you have the lens you see categories everywhere. 381 00:28:48.829 --> 00:28:52.230 So, to get back to your question, John, I will often 382 00:28:52.309 --> 00:28:53.950 go in and I will say to the mix ologist, you know, you 383 00:28:55.029 --> 00:28:57.619 guys look like you have an awesome, awesome selection of whiskey and bourbons. 384 00:28:59.220 --> 00:29:00.140 What do you have this new? What do you have that's exciting? What 385 00:29:00.220 --> 00:29:04.420 do you have that's interesting? What should I try? And I generally don't 386 00:29:06.019 --> 00:29:10.730 have mixed drinks. Mixed drink for me as a jack and Coke I get. 387 00:29:10.769 --> 00:29:12.450 If I'm going to drink a bourbon, I like it neat. I 388 00:29:12.609 --> 00:29:17.329 like my bourbon with Bourbon, just like I like my coffee. I like 389 00:29:17.490 --> 00:29:21.490 coffee with coffee and I think putting other I almost set a different word that 390 00:29:21.569 --> 00:29:25.759 begins with S, but I'll say stuff in my bourbon or in my coffee 391 00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:29.799 is somewhat blasphemous. And Look, I know, having spent time in Scotland 392 00:29:29.799 --> 00:29:32.839 and and so forth, there are some experts that say you should really put 393 00:29:32.839 --> 00:29:34.200 a little water in there, a little lice in there, quote unquote, 394 00:29:34.200 --> 00:29:37.519 open it up. I think all that's BS. I like Bourbon. In 395 00:29:37.589 --> 00:29:41.069 my bourbon be good stuff. Yeah, well, it's kind of an interesting 396 00:29:41.109 --> 00:29:44.950 space to watch because it is very, very crowded. If you go to, 397 00:29:45.869 --> 00:29:48.589 you know, a liquor store around here, you'll see literally hundreds of 398 00:29:48.670 --> 00:29:52.539 bourbons on the shelf and so every once in a while you'll see someone who's 399 00:29:52.579 --> 00:29:56.500 trying to kind of reframe that conversation or talk about a different bourbon or a 400 00:29:56.539 --> 00:30:02.180 different blend while still kind of remaining two true to that kind of a heritage 401 00:30:02.180 --> 00:30:03.740 of Bourbon. So it's really interesting to kind of see what ideas stick in 402 00:30:03.819 --> 00:30:07.930 which are just kind of flashes in the Pan. And I love the innovation, 403 00:30:07.049 --> 00:30:11.809 the new category of Whiskey that I love. It's least new to me. 404 00:30:11.849 --> 00:30:14.009 Maybe it's been going on for a while and I didn't notice it. 405 00:30:14.250 --> 00:30:18.089 I'm not I don't follow it super closely, but there is a whiskey that's 406 00:30:18.170 --> 00:30:26.119 made here in the Santa Cruz area called Wayward Whiskey, and I joined their 407 00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:29.759 club and I, you know, get a selection of stuff from them every 408 00:30:29.799 --> 00:30:32.599 quarter and you got to go to their place and pick it up, which 409 00:30:32.599 --> 00:30:34.640 is fun. It's just the other side of town for me and I was 410 00:30:34.750 --> 00:30:41.150 in there a couple weeks ago John and picking up my quarterly drop ship of 411 00:30:41.269 --> 00:30:45.910 Yummy and while I was in there I noticed behind the bar, because they 412 00:30:45.910 --> 00:30:51.259 have a tasting area, they had this very sort of dark ruby, almost 413 00:30:51.460 --> 00:30:56.299 blood ready looking whiskey and I'm sort of trying to read the label. Anyway, 414 00:30:56.460 --> 00:31:02.660 long story longer. It's whiskey that has been aged in pork barrels. 415 00:31:03.059 --> 00:31:07.609 Oh really, and I love port and I love whiskey and I'll tell you, 416 00:31:07.170 --> 00:31:10.730 man, is this ever good. I'm going to buy a case of 417 00:31:10.769 --> 00:31:15.650 it. It is absolutely outstanding. And so right now my favorite go too 418 00:31:15.890 --> 00:31:19.480 is wayward whiskey aged in port barrels. Nice. So does that kind as 419 00:31:19.480 --> 00:31:23.079 a new category of whiskey or is that just differentiation? It's new to me. 420 00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:26.480 I don't know if it if it's if it's been a long standing category. 421 00:31:26.519 --> 00:31:30.000 I had never heard of it, so I'm guessing it's new, but 422 00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:32.799 I can't tell you for sure. But it certainly was new to me. 423 00:31:32.869 --> 00:31:36.869 I hadn't heard of anyone else doing it. And if you start paying attention, 424 00:31:37.390 --> 00:31:41.589 you know you'll start to see new categories all over the place. I 425 00:31:41.789 --> 00:31:44.349 just saw one. Let me see if I can grab it for you quickly. 426 00:31:44.430 --> 00:31:49.740 A new category of Jerky. I was in my favorite local, local 427 00:31:49.779 --> 00:31:55.140 store, local market. Yeah, here it is Auhi Tuna Jerky Strips, 428 00:31:55.740 --> 00:32:01.329 wildcot cut, whole cut island karyaky tuna jerk strips from a company called wildly 429 00:32:01.569 --> 00:32:07.849 responsible. So it's a Hei tuna jerky strips. So there you getting. 430 00:32:07.089 --> 00:32:10.490 I'm getting kind of hungry and thirsty just talking to you on this interviewer talking 431 00:32:10.490 --> 00:32:15.089 about Jerky in Bourbon, Coke Pepsi earlier. Oh, lots of good stuff, 432 00:32:15.089 --> 00:32:17.039 Chris. Thanks so much for all the advice you shared today. I 433 00:32:17.079 --> 00:32:22.440 could probably pick your brain for another few hours, but just what you've shared 434 00:32:22.519 --> 00:32:25.720 so far has been tremendously valuable. If someone wants to get in touch with 435 00:32:25.880 --> 00:32:30.109 you and ask you questions about category, to sign learn more about your work. 436 00:32:30.670 --> 00:32:37.309 What's the best way for them to do that? Lockheadcom, lloc hbadcom, 437 00:32:37.670 --> 00:32:39.670 pockheadcom. Got It all right, Chris. Thanks again. It was 438 00:32:39.869 --> 00:32:43.990 an honor to talk to you. I really appreciate you being on the show. 439 00:32:44.299 --> 00:32:46.539 John, I'm stoked to be with you. Thank you so much pleasure. 440 00:32:51.619 --> 00:32:54.700 We totally get it. We publish a ton of content on this podcast 441 00:32:54.859 --> 00:32:58.930 and it can be a lot to keep up with. That's why we've started 442 00:32:59.009 --> 00:33:02.569 the BB growth big three, a no fluff email that boils down our three 443 00:33:02.690 --> 00:33:07.369 biggest takeaways from an entire week of episodes. Sign up today at Sweet Fish 444 00:33:07.450 --> 00:33:14.200 Mediacom big three. That sweet PHISH MEDIACOM Big Three