#Agency 17: ROI-Driven Marketing w/ Mike Krass

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:09.269 Hey everyone, logan with sweet fish here. As you may already know, 2 00:00:09.470 --> 00:00:14.109 we've had the HASHTAG agency series running for a while now here on bb growth. 3 00:00:14.830 --> 00:00:18.710 Over the next several weeks you'll be able to listen in to select episodes 4 00:00:19.070 --> 00:00:24.620 of the Innovative Agency, hosted by Sharon Tork as she leads conversations with agency 5 00:00:24.660 --> 00:00:28.940 leaders about how their teams are staying on the cutting edge of marketing trends, 6 00:00:29.300 --> 00:00:33.380 how they're adapting their businesses to meet new challenges and a whole lot more. 7 00:00:34.140 --> 00:00:39.890 All right, let's get into the episode. Welcome everybody back to another episode 8 00:00:39.929 --> 00:00:44.289 of the Innovative Agency. Share and tork here again with you today, and 9 00:00:44.649 --> 00:00:49.929 I'm excited about something that probably most of you are going to grown about when 10 00:00:49.969 --> 00:00:55.840 I say it, and that's conversation about our OI. That's right, Oroi. 11 00:00:56.079 --> 00:01:00.320 Return on investment, probably three letters put together that most agency owners I 12 00:01:00.520 --> 00:01:07.629 talk with despise or get super excited about, depending upon your philosophy, and 13 00:01:07.670 --> 00:01:12.069 I'm really looking forward to sort of peeling back this onion of the whole issue 14 00:01:12.230 --> 00:01:18.549 of return on investment and how you have that conversation around it with your clients, 15 00:01:18.620 --> 00:01:22.260 your prospects, your teams, all of that and to do that I'm 16 00:01:22.659 --> 00:01:26.939 really happy to introduce my guest today, who is my crass and Mike is 17 00:01:26.980 --> 00:01:32.620 a CO founder of mkg Te Marketing Down in New Orleans, Louisiana and I 18 00:01:32.659 --> 00:01:36.930 think one other city, I believe. Welcome Mike to the PODCAST. Thanks 19 00:01:36.969 --> 00:01:40.290 for having me, Sharon, and we are actually in seven different states, 20 00:01:40.370 --> 00:01:42.609 so we're kind of all over the place. Wow, it got it. 21 00:01:44.090 --> 00:01:49.760 Yeah, I love New Orleans. It's and and I'm I'm a clevelander by 22 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:53.200 birth and so it's very different. But actually spend some time out there last 23 00:01:53.280 --> 00:01:57.079 year in the summertime, which is probably not the best time to go for 24 00:01:57.200 --> 00:02:01.670 somebody who doesn't like heat and humidity, but I love the city. Great 25 00:02:01.709 --> 00:02:06.989 people, Great Food, for sure. So let's talk about first of all, 26 00:02:07.349 --> 00:02:10.789 tell us a little bit about Mkg and sort of your your founding story 27 00:02:10.949 --> 00:02:15.780 of the agency and and what you did leading up to being an agency owner. 28 00:02:16.300 --> 00:02:23.020 Sure, so what I did before we found it, Mkg, was 29 00:02:23.099 --> 00:02:27.419 I worked at at agencies on the West Coast the United States, specifically in 30 00:02:27.539 --> 00:02:31.849 Los Angeles and Seattle, and I was in a number of different roles. 31 00:02:31.889 --> 00:02:38.050 They were focused on really, you know, analytics, the ones and Zeros, 32 00:02:38.250 --> 00:02:43.009 a lot of the technical instrumentation, as well as paid media planning and 33 00:02:43.770 --> 00:02:47.599 strategy. So that's what took me from Seattle, where I grew up, 34 00:02:49.039 --> 00:02:53.719 down to Los Angeles and back to Seattle. Met My business partner carry she 35 00:02:53.879 --> 00:03:00.669 was actually hired to be my boss and the agency in Seattle, and really 36 00:03:00.750 --> 00:03:04.710 we just hit it off. We were both very analytical. We like ones 37 00:03:04.750 --> 00:03:08.629 and Zeros between and spreadsheets. I can hear a couple creative studio heads just 38 00:03:08.750 --> 00:03:12.509 growning right now like, Oh God, you're one of them, as so 39 00:03:12.629 --> 00:03:16.379 unmutual in this industry. So that that is very interesting. Yeah, and 40 00:03:16.659 --> 00:03:22.580 and I am proud to say I am one of them. So you know, 41 00:03:22.659 --> 00:03:28.729 our our founding story was it came out of a client project at that 42 00:03:28.810 --> 00:03:32.930 agency at Seattle and we we had this huge global campaign. All their different 43 00:03:32.930 --> 00:03:38.330 regions pitched money in and you know, they had big expectations and it was 44 00:03:38.530 --> 00:03:44.800 seven figure media campaign over the holidays for consumer brand. And we got to 45 00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:47.800 the end of this campaign and if I have to recall, I think I 46 00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:52.800 was twenty three years old at this point. HM, and so we've got 47 00:03:52.919 --> 00:03:58.669 people dialed in from all over the world and they all dial in and I 48 00:03:58.870 --> 00:04:01.550 can, I'm comfortable saying this with, you know, my German heritage. 49 00:04:02.030 --> 00:04:06.430 The gentleman who is calling in that the country head from Germany, listening to 50 00:04:06.469 --> 00:04:10.180 our wholes field. We were so proud. We're showing all these you know, 51 00:04:10.340 --> 00:04:14.979 ones and Zeros and numbers, but the number we didn't show was sales 52 00:04:15.819 --> 00:04:20.220 because it actually wasn't possible for them to track because we were driving everything to, 53 00:04:20.860 --> 00:04:26.009 you know, the best fives or other target type people of the world 54 00:04:26.170 --> 00:04:29.889 on their different partners. And so he listens very politely and then at the 55 00:04:29.970 --> 00:04:32.170 end he looked at all of us and he said, what did we actually 56 00:04:32.290 --> 00:04:38.720 get? Why did I give you so much money? And I'm not feeling 57 00:04:38.800 --> 00:04:42.439 like I got think sure people saw ads, sure people clicked on them and 58 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:46.959 went to our website. What I'm hearing you say is you have no idea. 59 00:04:47.000 --> 00:04:54.230 How much product useful do you? And that was a pretty uncomfortable conversation 60 00:04:54.350 --> 00:04:57.269 for a twenty three year old who doesn't speak German. Is it used to 61 00:04:57.350 --> 00:05:00.310 working with Germans? He basically opened the flood gates. So then you know, 62 00:05:00.550 --> 00:05:03.149 the Chinese country had jumped in and was like yeah, I'm kind of 63 00:05:03.149 --> 00:05:08.459 thinking the same thing. But what did I you know? It is. 64 00:05:09.300 --> 00:05:13.899 Yeah, this is a conversation. Every agency owner fierce, and don't care 65 00:05:13.980 --> 00:05:16.939 if they admitted or not, every agency owner fares is question to some degree. 66 00:05:17.220 --> 00:05:20.889 So go ahead to talk about what happened next. Well, we didn't 67 00:05:20.889 --> 00:05:25.250 have an answer, which didn't make them any happier. Right, right, 68 00:05:25.329 --> 00:05:30.329 right. And so subsequently, carry my business partner, her and and I 69 00:05:30.490 --> 00:05:33.449 looked at each other. We did a little bit of an internal postmortem of 70 00:05:33.689 --> 00:05:40.720 how the heck did that happen and we realized we never wanted that to happen 71 00:05:40.759 --> 00:05:45.439 again. So that's really where this idea of starting mkge sprouted. Than our 72 00:05:45.519 --> 00:05:48.480 brains. We thought, man, how could we control that? Never have 73 00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:54.709 any yet, and I and we literally said never, which is in hinds. 74 00:05:55.269 --> 00:05:59.709 It's not possible to never have that conversation. But we said, you 75 00:05:59.790 --> 00:06:04.100 know, if we were in control this department, we might, we might 76 00:06:04.139 --> 00:06:09.699 be able to steer our plans in certain directions that make it very difficult for 77 00:06:09.819 --> 00:06:13.579 that to happen again. And so we had a we had approach the department 78 00:06:13.660 --> 00:06:16.819 head and they listened very politely and then they very politely reminded us that, 79 00:06:17.259 --> 00:06:21.129 Hey, this is a creative first agency. It's a creative studio. That's 80 00:06:21.170 --> 00:06:26.769 what everyone knows this as we happen to do a lot of those ones and 81 00:06:26.769 --> 00:06:31.009 Zeros, because it's more a mechanism to deliver creative hmm right, I love 82 00:06:31.129 --> 00:06:36.000 your initiative. You clearly thought through this plan. It's just not going to 83 00:06:36.040 --> 00:06:41.519 happen here. And they didn't say the words know, they just said, 84 00:06:42.040 --> 00:06:46.399 you know, thanks for playing and it's not going to happen. So we 85 00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:53.470 started the agency and we said our first tagline, which again making the creative 86 00:06:53.509 --> 00:06:58.470 types listening grown. We have no experience with like building taglines and building brands. 87 00:07:00.709 --> 00:07:03.300 So the back that we had our own tagline was pre special. Right, 88 00:07:04.019 --> 00:07:08.660 it's good, good, it sounds. Yeah, I think the Tagline 89 00:07:08.819 --> 00:07:12.540 was measurable me and so we wanted to make sure that we never had that 90 00:07:12.819 --> 00:07:16.089 really hard discussion again, and so that's where I, Mkg, originally came 91 00:07:16.250 --> 00:07:20.610 for Um and today, like I mentioned, we've got team members. We're 92 00:07:20.610 --> 00:07:25.730 still small agency. We have team members in seven different states and we work 93 00:07:25.810 --> 00:07:31.720 primarily with technology and healthcare brands and the tagline or our niche that we talk 94 00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:36.199 about today is we help them grow big. We're not in the business of 95 00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:41.879 helping them grow a couple of points a year. Unless they're multi billion dollar 96 00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:45.310 business, than a few percentage points is a big deal, Sarah. For 97 00:07:45.470 --> 00:07:48.269 sure, we are working with businesses that are trying to grow by two thousand, 98 00:07:48.269 --> 00:07:51.310 five hundred and fifty, a hundred percent, two X, three X. 99 00:07:51.790 --> 00:07:55.949 we've heard numbers as high as or x from some of our clients. 100 00:07:56.069 --> 00:07:59.459 Not that we're responsible for all that growth, but they just want us to 101 00:07:59.500 --> 00:08:03.540 be aware of Ay. You Happen to do digital marketing for, you know, 102 00:08:03.699 --> 00:08:07.779 technology brands like us or healthcare brands like us, but we are going 103 00:08:07.860 --> 00:08:09.660 to grow big and you need to be a part of that. You need 104 00:08:09.699 --> 00:08:13.850 to kind of strap your seat belt in and help us in the process. 105 00:08:15.089 --> 00:08:18.930 So that's what we do, or we're not a full service agency. We 106 00:08:18.050 --> 00:08:24.930 focus on digital advertising, Seo and analytics for technology and healthcare brands and the 107 00:08:24.009 --> 00:08:28.240 type of brands that are hiring us are looking to grow pretty explosively and they 108 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:33.480 want us to be on board and helping them in the process. To you, 109 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:39.799 I love this as as the lead or sort of the defining purpose of 110 00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:46.230 your experience founding your current agency, because it's very clear to express, it's 111 00:08:46.509 --> 00:08:52.870 measurable and it doesn't lend itself to a lot of wiggle room, which is 112 00:08:54.990 --> 00:08:58.460 a brief thing to do right, because the data says what it says. 113 00:08:58.580 --> 00:09:05.220 Now you can choose which what to measure right, but you've got to decide 114 00:09:05.659 --> 00:09:09.570 in advance, I assuming, with your clients consent and input, about what 115 00:09:09.690 --> 00:09:13.730 those metrics are going to be so that you know what you're going to be 116 00:09:13.769 --> 00:09:18.970 measured against once you start working with them. So I love this specificness of 117 00:09:18.090 --> 00:09:26.080 it and I love the the bravery of leading with we're all about US chaling 118 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:30.639 up the scores and seeing how we did, because I think that's a harder 119 00:09:30.679 --> 00:09:37.600 conversation for an agency that is either creatively focused or brand building focused, some 120 00:09:37.720 --> 00:09:41.389 of those types of things that are hard to put Zeros and ones behind. 121 00:09:41.429 --> 00:09:46.950 Measuring right. Yeah, absolutely. It's something that I'm starting to see more 122 00:09:48.190 --> 00:09:52.220 with agencies. I kind of see the same types of language from agencies, 123 00:09:52.259 --> 00:09:56.259 which, when you're trying to stand out, it's not great to see similar 124 00:09:56.299 --> 00:10:01.740 language. Yeah, no, I agree, but ultimately it was a planting 125 00:10:01.860 --> 00:10:07.250 our flag and saying, for example, on the technology side, on average 126 00:10:07.370 --> 00:10:13.090 clients invested dollar in our services and we generate ten dollars and sales pipeline back 127 00:10:13.210 --> 00:10:18.730 to them. So it's not sales, but it's leads that turn into proposals 128 00:10:18.769 --> 00:10:22.679 that are sent by a salesperson, and so that's something that is really attractive 129 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:26.039 to the types of clients that we work with and it's also a bit of 130 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:31.639 a barrier to entry, for lack of a better term, for clients who 131 00:10:31.639 --> 00:10:35.629 aren't interested in that. If you are not interested and measuring all the way 132 00:10:35.629 --> 00:10:41.190 down to the sales pipeline and then actual sales, you're not really a great 133 00:10:41.389 --> 00:10:46.110 client for us because that's the language that we're going it. So if you're 134 00:10:46.110 --> 00:10:50.419 uncomfortable with that for whatever reason, and that not judge of just saying if 135 00:10:50.419 --> 00:10:54.340 you're uncomfortable, that's not interesting or attractive to you, we can we can 136 00:10:54.460 --> 00:10:58.100 part ways as friends and be colleagues in the industry, but we really don't 137 00:10:58.100 --> 00:11:03.700 need to work together. Right. Did you make a conscious decision as an 138 00:11:03.740 --> 00:11:09.169 agency to focus on the client verticals that you did because you felt they were 139 00:11:09.250 --> 00:11:15.210 more likely to be data or Roi focused when they were looking for a partner? 140 00:11:15.769 --> 00:11:20.600 We did, and starting on the technology side, I'm doing are quotes 141 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:26.399 because technology can really be are okay, you know? Yeah, our technology 142 00:11:26.519 --> 00:11:33.110 practice is everything from working with clients that are selling routers, Wi fi systems, 143 00:11:33.190 --> 00:11:39.470 home automation, networking data or into coming big data companies. For them 144 00:11:39.750 --> 00:11:46.789 we focused on them first, acting before healthcare, because they all want to 145 00:11:46.950 --> 00:11:50.179 know one's in Zeros. Well, while they're interested in brand building. Do 146 00:11:50.259 --> 00:11:54.940 you are a be to be technology company, at some point a couple of 147 00:11:54.980 --> 00:11:58.340 things have to happen for you to grow. Have to number one, having 148 00:11:58.740 --> 00:12:05.009 extremely, extremely competent sales leader, whatever his or her title as doesn't matter. 149 00:12:05.490 --> 00:12:09.529 You've got to be focused on a sales leader that can hire an able 150 00:12:09.570 --> 00:12:13.529 management and then bring in that lower level of sales folks, which are like 151 00:12:13.690 --> 00:12:20.080 strs or atrs, the whole bunch of different actronomes to that. So that's 152 00:12:20.120 --> 00:12:24.120 usually, to be frank, a technology company, as their scaling will hire 153 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:28.480 salespeople faster than marketing and the'll hire more of them. And a great example 154 00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:31.789 is like zoom, video conferencing. They IPOS last year. They had tremendously 155 00:12:31.830 --> 00:12:37.149 successful initial public offering and they're still going strong. Where a zoom customer, 156 00:12:37.190 --> 00:12:41.830 we were in their office and September of last year just chatting with them and 157 00:12:43.070 --> 00:12:48.340 I believe their marketing department today right, they're a publicly traded company. Their 158 00:12:48.379 --> 00:12:52.419 Marketing Department is I don't remember the exact number, but it's definitely less than 159 00:12:52.539 --> 00:12:56.740 fifty and I probably put it out around twenty five. Well, and in 160 00:12:56.899 --> 00:12:58.730 September, the day before we walked in their office, they had just hired 161 00:12:58.769 --> 00:13:03.970 their one thousand salesperson. And just to show you orders of magnitude, they 162 00:13:05.169 --> 00:13:09.370 literally have two percent the number of marketing people as sales. So kind of 163 00:13:09.409 --> 00:13:13.679 coming back to their questions why we focus on a vertical we want to talk 164 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:16.159 about it. So that means if you are a marketing person at a company 165 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:20.440 that sells technology to other businesses, you have to talk in sales. It's 166 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:26.000 not it's not allowed to not. So we really just gelled with those kind 167 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:28.230 of people and the more we talked to them and we really like your methodology 168 00:13:28.269 --> 00:13:31.629 and you're talking about we're not seeing this from a lot of people. And 169 00:13:31.750 --> 00:13:37.350 they also understand that there's most technology brands, unless it's a, you know, 170 00:13:37.429 --> 00:13:41.500 subscription business like a SASS company, there's usually huge pudical at the end 171 00:13:41.580 --> 00:13:46.460 of each sales rainbow. So it's not like they're going to go through a 172 00:13:46.539 --> 00:13:50.220 nine month or twelve month or even a fifteen month sales cycle and sell something 173 00:13:50.340 --> 00:13:54.019 for four thousand dollars. They're going to sell for four hundredzero dollars or four 174 00:13:54.139 --> 00:14:01.809 million dollars and then talk about healthcare. We were really attracted to healthcare businesses 175 00:14:01.970 --> 00:14:05.769 because you might not get a four million dollars sale and meat like, although 176 00:14:05.769 --> 00:14:09.360 one of our clients it's in life science of business that raves these treatments, 177 00:14:09.399 --> 00:14:16.080 actually does seventh figure treatment that they spell that they provide with healthcare. It's 178 00:14:16.120 --> 00:14:20.120 more the lifetime value of that patient. You know, if you say you're 179 00:14:20.120 --> 00:14:24.000 a hospital and you're taking care of taking care of my wife Jin, that's 180 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:26.070 that's her name. Who Do you think that Mike is going to go to 181 00:14:26.269 --> 00:14:30.149 when he needs to be taken care of, whether it's, you know, 182 00:14:30.350 --> 00:14:33.309 just basic medical needs, a check up, the physical whatever, all the 183 00:14:33.350 --> 00:14:37.940 way up to, you know, serious emergency medicine or terminal illness. So 184 00:14:39.100 --> 00:14:41.500 with with healthcare brands it's a little harder to track because they don't have the 185 00:14:41.539 --> 00:14:46.980 same marketing technology stack like a tech company would. Right, which tech companies 186 00:14:48.019 --> 00:14:50.580 generally go? You've got your marketing metrics, so like whatever you see out 187 00:14:50.620 --> 00:14:56.250 of facebook ads and you've got working on an Asian platform such as Marquetto our 188 00:14:56.370 --> 00:15:01.129 dot whatever, and then you shove all that data into sales crm like sales 189 00:15:01.210 --> 00:15:03.970 force or upstart. Unfortunately health care doesn't have that same stack set up, 190 00:15:05.490 --> 00:15:09.279 but they are starting to have some more end end tracking with the different bits 191 00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:16.279 of their their marketing and technology stack. So for us it's really rewarding to 192 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:20.159 be able to say against that life sciences business, a single getting, a 193 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:26.629 single new patient pays for our service many times over in a year. We're 194 00:15:26.629 --> 00:15:28.629 usually not that fortunate. It's usually like, okay, we bring mic in 195 00:15:30.230 --> 00:15:31.710 and he's going to see the doctor for a few years and Mike's wife Jen 196 00:15:31.830 --> 00:15:35.139 starts coming in and then Sharon ask where you know? Where do you guys 197 00:15:35.179 --> 00:15:39.779 go to the doctor, and also starts going. So we're looking to be 198 00:15:39.899 --> 00:15:46.059 able to tell a story powered by these different bits of technology that says, 199 00:15:46.220 --> 00:15:50.409 okay, you're going to spend x on it. Kg. Our goal is 200 00:15:50.490 --> 00:15:54.649 to make why bigger than X and that why should continue to grow over time. 201 00:15:54.370 --> 00:15:58.289 So that's why we really attracted to those two industries. You know, 202 00:15:58.409 --> 00:16:04.919 long sales cycles really valuable customers or patients' healthcare side and a clear need. 203 00:16:06.159 --> 00:16:11.480 Also, I'm not not to marginalize the Banana Republic shirt that I'm wearing right 204 00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:15.320 now, but I didn't need a ban and republicsher good a bottle shirt or 205 00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:19.149 pretty much anywhere at work work right well, and I also think that there 206 00:16:19.190 --> 00:16:26.750 are industries that lend themselves to a lot of of Innerim benchmarking, which a 207 00:16:26.830 --> 00:16:32.590 data focused agency is as well equipped to do right, because you are you're 208 00:16:32.629 --> 00:16:37.740 constantly measuring and it's baked into the way you deliver, the value that you 209 00:16:37.980 --> 00:16:45.059 deliver, and so you're selling, helping your clients create bigger ticket relationships or 210 00:16:45.059 --> 00:16:48.690 bigger ticket sales to you know, but pick your phraseology, depending on the 211 00:16:48.730 --> 00:16:52.809 industry, but you are helping them measure along the way whether they're headed in 212 00:16:52.850 --> 00:16:56.649 the right direction and on the right path. Yeah, along the way and 213 00:16:56.730 --> 00:17:00.960 it and when it comes to our services and fees, it ends up being 214 00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:07.200 a fairly binary conversation. When I'm calling you or Andre, who's a our 215 00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:11.680 sales leader here and Mkgi, when myself are under a calling a client about 216 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:17.390 a renewal. We should have a really good idea around how likely we are 217 00:17:17.509 --> 00:17:19.349 to renew. Are we going to get more work from them? Are they 218 00:17:19.430 --> 00:17:23.309 going to reduce the work? They just going to terminate the relationship at the 219 00:17:23.349 --> 00:17:27.750 end of the current contract? You know, we it's a pretty binary conversation 220 00:17:29.589 --> 00:17:34.259 and that I've seen in other agencies can be uncomfortable. You I see other 221 00:17:34.339 --> 00:17:41.700 agencies and painting with a frowd rush here. Yeah, other agencies. Sometimes 222 00:17:42.700 --> 00:17:45.930 they want to talk more in feel right. How does this feel? How 223 00:17:47.049 --> 00:17:49.609 this relationship feel? How is the work right? That's again are quotes. 224 00:17:49.650 --> 00:17:55.930 That's like a man the work. How is the work right? How do 225 00:17:56.009 --> 00:17:57.450 you feel the work is going? How do you feel the working process is 226 00:17:57.529 --> 00:18:02.200 going? And ultimately, what I always said in the early days of our 227 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:07.680 company is I cannot hate people to work here based on feelings. Yes, 228 00:18:08.119 --> 00:18:14.509 eventually they're going to leave because they're not able to turn around to JP Morgan 229 00:18:14.509 --> 00:18:18.430 Chase or whoever holds their mortgage and say I'm going to give you ten feelings 230 00:18:18.549 --> 00:18:22.710 instead of my mortgage. Famous. Yeah, no, you don't under see. 231 00:18:22.829 --> 00:18:25.750 And they really liked our work. It really feels good to the client. 232 00:18:25.990 --> 00:18:30.700 They just didn't pay for it. Yeah, well, whether speck work 233 00:18:30.819 --> 00:18:36.099 or whether the relationship just ended and and I think for us, if it 234 00:18:36.259 --> 00:18:41.180 is truly confusing if we are delivery and the metrics we agreed to as a 235 00:18:41.299 --> 00:18:44.250 group, not just what we told you, but you you waited on you 236 00:18:44.329 --> 00:18:48.130 agreed as a client. We got consensus. I was communicated at the chain 237 00:18:48.210 --> 00:18:52.450 of command to leadership. It's truly confusing if we're doing really well for somebody 238 00:18:52.490 --> 00:18:56.400 and we don't get because that basically means that all that is lips. Are 239 00:18:56.480 --> 00:19:00.440 Us and we didn't have yeah, see, yes, well, I'm glad 240 00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:07.440 you brought that up, because one of the most vexing things for agencies, 241 00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:12.869 well, the new business question in general. I mean pipe keeping, pipelines 242 00:19:12.950 --> 00:19:18.509 fall closing deals, making the right matches with the right clients. It's how 243 00:19:18.589 --> 00:19:23.779 every agency owner who I personally know or who I personally work with spends a 244 00:19:23.819 --> 00:19:29.019 lot of their their day, their their months or years consumed with. But 245 00:19:29.660 --> 00:19:33.019 if you can use the data that you are and and the benchmarks that you 246 00:19:33.099 --> 00:19:38.049 are gathering along the way, it takes so much guess work out of the 247 00:19:38.329 --> 00:19:44.890 equation when it comes time to talk about whether you're going to maintain or move 248 00:19:44.970 --> 00:19:48.849 on from maintain the relationship or move on from each other as a client and 249 00:19:48.930 --> 00:19:53.319 an agency. Right, and agencies spends so much of their time just trying 250 00:19:53.400 --> 00:20:00.799 to keep the business they already have in some cases. And your approach seems 251 00:20:00.799 --> 00:20:07.789 to me to eliminate so much of that variableness because, like you said, 252 00:20:07.950 --> 00:20:12.910 you should be able to predict a lot earlier than on renewal of your agreement 253 00:20:12.990 --> 00:20:18.509 or whether or not you're delivering on what the parties agreed you would deliver. 254 00:20:18.789 --> 00:20:25.380 And so if they're not renewing, you know some interveeting circumstances occurred or you 255 00:20:25.460 --> 00:20:33.019 know some it's a surprise for unrelated reasons. But you're definitely blunting that variable 256 00:20:33.700 --> 00:20:36.809 down to zero in most cases. So so you know and so you can 257 00:20:36.930 --> 00:20:41.490 plan and so you're spending less money trying to maintain the work that you already 258 00:20:41.490 --> 00:20:47.490 have. Yeah, and I like that the word you use, blunting it 259 00:20:47.650 --> 00:20:53.359 down and using the work vaccine, confusing. I mean it's really if we're 260 00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:57.519 not getting renewed, there's a problem there. And Yeah, well, say, 261 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:00.599 it's not all about the numbers. Right, if you don't work well 262 00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:06.630 as somebody or they they would prefer or maybe thrive a client with cry at 263 00:21:06.630 --> 00:21:11.509 the different lead stakeholder, whether it's an account person or, you know, 264 00:21:11.589 --> 00:21:15.069 a contributor or whatever at your agency. All those feelings still matter alone, 265 00:21:15.670 --> 00:21:22.740 right, but you you can work through. Not. So you know who 266 00:21:22.779 --> 00:21:29.539 we whoi Valentine's Day feelings. I can't work through and renew a client who 267 00:21:29.579 --> 00:21:33.849 are actually not helping them sell anything. Right, it's not possible in my 268 00:21:33.970 --> 00:21:37.970 experience. If not selling anything, but they love working with you, what 269 00:21:37.089 --> 00:21:41.289 you will hear is we have really enjoyed working with you. This is not 270 00:21:41.450 --> 00:21:45.170 working out. Yeah, yeah, so stay in touch, but please, 271 00:21:45.650 --> 00:21:49.119 you know we will. We're going to different direction, right, piece. 272 00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:53.359 Will see you maybe at the EDDEA awards. Yeah, important. Well, 273 00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:56.240 I wanted to talk, you know, speaking of I want them to sort 274 00:21:56.279 --> 00:22:02.589 of talk with you a little bit about your your client vetting and discovery process, 275 00:22:02.710 --> 00:22:08.789 because you know, not only are you really diligent about looking at the 276 00:22:08.869 --> 00:22:15.740 numbers just very plainly throughout the engagement, but you do a lot of up 277 00:22:15.819 --> 00:22:21.099 front work and it's metrics focused as well on vetting a client in the first 278 00:22:21.180 --> 00:22:26.180 place. You have a discovering onboarding process that is somewhat democratic, although that's 279 00:22:26.220 --> 00:22:30.690 probably an overbroad term, because you are the owner and you know, I've 280 00:22:30.730 --> 00:22:36.650 got to assume that you can reverse or override and he decis you're not comfortable 281 00:22:36.690 --> 00:22:41.529 with. But talk, talk a little bit about how you are vetting and 282 00:22:41.970 --> 00:22:48.480 handling discovery with new potential clients, including your scorecarding process. Yes, so 283 00:22:48.039 --> 00:22:52.680 we recently, in the past year, discovered score cards. Had heard a 284 00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:57.519 lot about them from other agency owners and even other businesses, and the promise 285 00:22:57.589 --> 00:23:03.269 of a scorecard is just to figure out, numerically, a difficult question. 286 00:23:03.309 --> 00:23:07.430 Right should we identical question might be should we work with this client or not? 287 00:23:07.150 --> 00:23:11.430 The answers are yes or no, but actually getting to yes or nose 288 00:23:11.549 --> 00:23:15.339 a very difficult thing to sort through. And so what we used to do 289 00:23:17.619 --> 00:23:22.859 when we were a smaller agency is we would, before we sent a proposal 290 00:23:22.940 --> 00:23:27.650 to a client, we would review every single you know, new prospect with 291 00:23:27.769 --> 00:23:30.569 the entire team. We would talk about a who kind of brief the team 292 00:23:30.650 --> 00:23:34.049 to Qa and then we would vote. So that, I was a very, 293 00:23:34.410 --> 00:23:40.410 you know, by the book, Literal Democratic Process. Imagine you got 294 00:23:40.450 --> 00:23:44.160 your little primaries on CNN or Fox or whatever station you watch, and then 295 00:23:44.200 --> 00:23:48.680 you move all the way down the voting and we found that that was incredibly 296 00:23:48.759 --> 00:23:53.319 important that we would get a hundred percent yes. Boat had to be unanimous 297 00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:57.349 and part of that came from you know, I worked on the West Coast 298 00:23:57.390 --> 00:24:00.829 for ad agencies carry my business partners from the North East. So she was 299 00:24:00.910 --> 00:24:06.309 in New York. That's some major holding companies working for big agencies there. 300 00:24:07.309 --> 00:24:11.140 And what we would find is it working in those worlds. You basically got 301 00:24:11.259 --> 00:24:15.660 this client tossed on your lap, on it Tuesday morning and they would just, 302 00:24:15.859 --> 00:24:18.900 you know, a managing director or your department head would just say, 303 00:24:18.900 --> 00:24:21.380 Hey, by the way, you're going to be working with the Cleveland as 304 00:24:21.940 --> 00:24:26.849 fun. And you know, somebody say to their colleague and they would whisper 305 00:24:26.849 --> 00:24:30.369 it. Would not say it outout that they might whisper I don't know anything 306 00:24:30.410 --> 00:24:37.410 about baseball. there. Thanks for for they I think the more accurate would 307 00:24:37.410 --> 00:24:40.920 be I don't know anything about basketball. And then they're collag would be medians 308 00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:45.400 are a baseball team. Yet exactly for? I don't know anything about this, 309 00:24:45.640 --> 00:24:51.039 I don't have interest in it. I might even have an objection, 310 00:24:51.160 --> 00:24:55.029 like I might have a moral or professional and personal objection to this brand or 311 00:24:55.109 --> 00:24:57.509 business. So we wanted to bring that voting process to the team and that's 312 00:24:57.509 --> 00:25:00.269 what we started with for the first seven years of the company. And then 313 00:25:00.309 --> 00:25:07.109 last year we noticed that there were some common variables that we were always discussed 314 00:25:07.900 --> 00:25:11.140 in a vote and in a briefing and and Qa, and so we said, 315 00:25:11.299 --> 00:25:15.980 well, if we could turn this into a score card, at least 316 00:25:15.059 --> 00:25:18.579 ten variables can you answered yes or no, and yes, it's x amount 317 00:25:18.579 --> 00:25:23.170 of points. Now gets why? Amount of points? We could actually speed 318 00:25:23.250 --> 00:25:26.529 this whole process up so I don't have to brief the whole team on every 319 00:25:26.609 --> 00:25:30.890 single client, which that worked well in the beginning when maybe we'd get like 320 00:25:30.970 --> 00:25:33.890 a couple leads a month. You know, we average through, you know, 321 00:25:34.089 --> 00:25:40.279 referrals in bound are paid at hearts who probably average anywhere between five and 322 00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:44.599 ten leads a week today. So I can't talk to the whole team about 323 00:25:44.599 --> 00:25:47.359 ten leads every single week to breathe them on it, every single one. 324 00:25:47.799 --> 00:25:52.109 Right. So we turn it into a score card and we're testing it out. 325 00:25:52.910 --> 00:25:55.829 Probably take a year or longer to see if our score card is any 326 00:25:55.910 --> 00:25:57.470 good or not, because you have to put people through it, you have 327 00:25:57.630 --> 00:26:00.910 to bring them on board and then you have to see if they stay on 328 00:26:00.269 --> 00:26:04.579 but the score card just spits out a number and between seventy and a hundred 329 00:26:04.579 --> 00:26:07.380 it's just an automatic yes. And we tell the team, hey, based 330 00:26:07.460 --> 00:26:12.019 on the score card of all of your most important concern almost important variables, 331 00:26:12.299 --> 00:26:15.980 they support an automatic yes. So this is just an FYI. It's happening 332 00:26:17.339 --> 00:26:21.769 between, I think it's fifty and sixty or forty and sixty, a free 333 00:26:21.849 --> 00:26:26.289 the exact number on an Americ scale. will go back to our original process 334 00:26:26.329 --> 00:26:30.049 of breaking the team and having Qa and then anything under think forty is just 335 00:26:30.210 --> 00:26:33.960 not a MAC now and what we've found again, we've only been using a 336 00:26:34.039 --> 00:26:38.480 score card for a few months now. What we've found is that talking about 337 00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:42.559 we've talked about feelings are I can feel a client's not going to work and 338 00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:45.920 then I put them to the score card. I actually did this yesterday and 339 00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:52.430 it was numerically, I come like an immediate now why? Okay? That, 340 00:26:52.950 --> 00:26:56.269 as an agency owner, felt good to basically had your gut bound. 341 00:26:56.509 --> 00:26:59.950 It was like, there's some things I'm worried about here. I wonder if 342 00:26:59.950 --> 00:27:03.339 we can overcome them to work together and be productive as grouped, and then 343 00:27:03.380 --> 00:27:07.299 I put them to the score card and it's like who they are and I 344 00:27:07.380 --> 00:27:10.259 think they scored like a twenty. I think if you get your name right, 345 00:27:10.299 --> 00:27:12.980 to get ten points on our score cards. So that's that's a good 346 00:27:14.099 --> 00:27:15.730 but, you know, it was one of the whereas, like, I 347 00:27:17.089 --> 00:27:21.410 feel my gut is totally validated. Yeah, but you know, if you 348 00:27:21.569 --> 00:27:26.769 if you were less mature in your in your experience as an agency owner, 349 00:27:26.009 --> 00:27:30.680 your gut might not be as strong, right are you might be willing to 350 00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:36.599 overlook your gut for other factors, like, you know, payrolls come in 351 00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:40.920 up at the end of the month or you know. So it's good to 352 00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:49.950 have that metrics based verification or or support for decisions that that feel right in 353 00:27:51.029 --> 00:27:53.430 your gut. I mean, I do believe there are some occasions on which, 354 00:27:53.430 --> 00:27:57.549 as an owner or an entrepreneur, something just doesn't sit well with you 355 00:27:57.859 --> 00:28:02.299 for whatever reason. That I mean, that's why you assume the risk of 356 00:28:02.460 --> 00:28:07.380 having your own business right so that you can override some of those other decisions. 357 00:28:07.019 --> 00:28:10.819 You know, and you own your own mistakes or own your own victories, 358 00:28:10.859 --> 00:28:15.490 whichever. But having the data that you develop and have it having invented 359 00:28:15.529 --> 00:28:18.569 by so many of the team members, and using it also to explain your 360 00:28:18.650 --> 00:28:23.809 decisions to them so that they understand the principles you're using and how you're loyal 361 00:28:23.930 --> 00:28:29.000 to them. I just it's evidence of your carrying through the same approach with 362 00:28:29.119 --> 00:28:33.079 your clients and with your team about how you're doing business, and so I 363 00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:37.920 love that. It makes the data feel a lot more human to me and 364 00:28:37.079 --> 00:28:41.990 I wonder sometimes that that's why it's Ikey, for lack of a more elegant 365 00:28:42.029 --> 00:28:48.509 word, to agency owners in a very creative industry to have to spend so 366 00:28:48.589 --> 00:28:51.470 much time on those things, because they feel, I don't know, sterile 367 00:28:51.670 --> 00:28:55.980 or not creative or not sexy or fun, which are some of the other 368 00:28:56.019 --> 00:28:59.500 reasons why they might be in the business in the first place. But these 369 00:28:59.539 --> 00:29:02.140 are, you know, decisions you have to make to determine whether or not 370 00:29:02.220 --> 00:29:04.339 you're going to be viable as a business, and you've created a way, 371 00:29:04.380 --> 00:29:07.180 I think, to make them feel a little more human. Yeah, and 372 00:29:07.339 --> 00:29:15.130 it's you of before Simonsenec started talking nonstop about, you know, starting with 373 00:29:15.210 --> 00:29:18.970 why, it's old Ted talk. I think business owners didn't really have like 374 00:29:18.130 --> 00:29:23.799 a picture of why the why is important, and I can, you know, 375 00:29:25.400 --> 00:29:27.680 be a little bit vulnerable here and share something with you that early in 376 00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:33.880 our companies lives. Anytime we got pushed back from employees, it was really 377 00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:37.039 difficult to hear. It felt like your pull of assistance was being questioned, 378 00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:42.549 whether it's bring on a new client, making a hiring decision, the color 379 00:29:42.670 --> 00:29:45.549 of the tables and the off like whatever. I mean. There was nothing 380 00:29:45.630 --> 00:29:52.670 too smaller, petty and right. They wouldn't hurt my feelings and and I 381 00:29:52.750 --> 00:29:55.140 think that's by the best place that it just hurts your feelings. Feels like 382 00:29:55.140 --> 00:30:00.059 you're being questioned right, and I learned that you're not. In most cases. 383 00:30:00.180 --> 00:30:03.980 Are Certain exceptions, and you you know, being an Attorneym t, 384 00:30:03.099 --> 00:30:11.170 you see quite a few of these very, you completely dysfunctional offices where people 385 00:30:11.170 --> 00:30:17.529 are truly doubting your decisions. They exist, I know, if few in 386 00:30:17.650 --> 00:30:22.160 an outside of the agency world, but employees are generally asking for you to 387 00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:25.960 go into why, because they care and they don't know everything that you do 388 00:30:26.440 --> 00:30:29.359 and you've got all this context in your brain you haven't shared with them, 389 00:30:29.920 --> 00:30:33.680 that's locked in your head and all this information that is both safe to share 390 00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:37.789 with them or not safe to share with them. And so was kind of 391 00:30:37.869 --> 00:30:41.750 talking about why and having data to back it up for the company. I 392 00:30:41.869 --> 00:30:45.150 think it's just a really great way to meet them, not even halfway, 393 00:30:45.230 --> 00:30:47.470 but like come all the way across the island, going to talk to the 394 00:30:47.549 --> 00:30:51.299 employees that this is why we're making some decisions. And Right. We first 395 00:30:51.339 --> 00:30:55.940 presented at one of our all hands meetings, the the new clients score card, 396 00:30:56.500 --> 00:30:59.380 the feedback, and I was kind of gear enough for a lot of 397 00:30:59.460 --> 00:31:02.859 questions around methodology. Well, why do you get five points for this and 398 00:31:02.940 --> 00:31:07.410 ten for that, and and it like very tactical questions. Right, the 399 00:31:07.049 --> 00:31:12.130 first thing that was said was it's about time. Really. Yeah, they're 400 00:31:12.170 --> 00:31:17.130 like, doesn't surprise me that we're having this discussion and I don't want us 401 00:31:17.130 --> 00:31:18.559 to come across the wrong way. kind of thought that we would get here 402 00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:23.880 a while ago and we would have this sport card as a tool to help 403 00:31:23.960 --> 00:31:27.920 the business. And I was like hum okay, like I'm all the feedback. 404 00:31:27.960 --> 00:31:30.839 That was not the first thing I thought I was going to hear. 405 00:31:32.279 --> 00:31:34.069 You know, it's really interesting that you just shared that, because what I 406 00:31:34.150 --> 00:31:37.789 was thinking, as you were being vulnerable, was I was going to offer 407 00:31:37.869 --> 00:31:41.470 something and this, I think, is probably one of my vulnerabilities as an 408 00:31:41.509 --> 00:31:47.380 entrepreneur. I totally took the heart what you just said about sometimes it really 409 00:31:47.460 --> 00:31:51.660 gets to your core when you are first of all, you're sticking your neck 410 00:31:51.700 --> 00:31:55.579 out as an entrepreneur. You're assuming all the risk the team members who work 411 00:31:55.660 --> 00:31:57.259 for you. The biggest risk they're assuming is you're not going to be able 412 00:31:57.299 --> 00:32:01.609 to keep them employed, right, which is not insignificant by any stretch of 413 00:32:01.690 --> 00:32:07.410 the imagination. But they're not seeing all of them, the micro decisions and 414 00:32:07.730 --> 00:32:12.410 macro decisions that go into your life day to day to make sure that that 415 00:32:12.690 --> 00:32:19.000 happens. And so yes, it's it's very easy to to feel it personally 416 00:32:19.119 --> 00:32:22.240 when you get that kind of a pushback. One of my vulnerabilities is getting 417 00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:30.269 past that as best I can once I realize that. I was shocked by 418 00:32:30.430 --> 00:32:35.990 how little time other people actually spend thinking about how you're going to feel about 419 00:32:35.990 --> 00:32:40.430 things. Yeah, really true. They're so focused on their own and it's 420 00:32:40.509 --> 00:32:45.940 just human nature. It's not militious, it's not intentionally selfish, is just 421 00:32:46.140 --> 00:32:52.579 we're hardwired to just to be focused on our self interests and and to the 422 00:32:52.660 --> 00:32:58.140 degree I think that US as entrepreneurs or owners of the business, we're all 423 00:32:58.220 --> 00:33:02.049 worried about what they're thinking and why they're thinking it, and they're all mired 424 00:33:02.130 --> 00:33:06.410 in their own stuff. It's got nothing to do with us, and so 425 00:33:06.890 --> 00:33:12.569 I just think that those two things put together are huge learnings for actually any 426 00:33:12.609 --> 00:33:15.720 business owner, but in this industry in particular, your industry in particular, 427 00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:22.799 where a lot of creative people, a lot of sensitivity flying around on a 428 00:33:22.839 --> 00:33:29.069 day to day basis. Yeah, I'll pass along some wisdom that was shared 429 00:33:29.109 --> 00:33:31.710 with me. When I worked in Seattle. I was at an agent see 430 00:33:31.750 --> 00:33:36.470 by the name of Wong duties. Two people's name smashed. Yeah, yes, 431 00:33:37.109 --> 00:33:42.700 and Tracy Wong, brilliant, creative, hilarious guy. Tracy and path 432 00:33:42.779 --> 00:33:47.059 started that agency in the S and Tracy used to say something that totally resonated 433 00:33:47.099 --> 00:33:51.940 with me and I think about it a lot. Right, because he's in 434 00:33:52.019 --> 00:33:54.730 the Creek Y is. He is the creative right, and so he was 435 00:33:54.769 --> 00:34:00.089 always pitching ideas, pitching concepts, pitching message of pitching everything, and he 436 00:34:00.170 --> 00:34:02.690 always used to kind of calm people down before they client pitch, whether it 437 00:34:02.809 --> 00:34:07.529 was current piece of business or brand new client or trying to bring the agency, 438 00:34:07.289 --> 00:34:10.320 and he would say it was enough and there would be a couple of 439 00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:14.599 bombs thrown in there that I won't repeat because that's just tracy. If you 440 00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:19.719 know, we literally ever heard him speak in public. Well, yeah, 441 00:34:20.599 --> 00:34:22.480 you know, F this, F that. We probably on a good day 442 00:34:22.519 --> 00:34:27.150 we're about to get in the car and drive over the client songs. On 443 00:34:27.309 --> 00:34:31.949 a good day we probably have control over ten percent of how this is going 444 00:34:32.030 --> 00:34:36.710 to go right. And people would always be like, what are you talking 445 00:34:36.750 --> 00:34:39.099 about? and He, you know, he said, okay, how about 446 00:34:39.139 --> 00:34:45.139 his traffic this morning? Is Your kid sick? Parents Sick you? Are 447 00:34:45.179 --> 00:34:50.219 You missing your spouse because they are? Management consultantly travel seven, like all 448 00:34:50.300 --> 00:34:52.050 these things you get brought are going to get rock to the meet you have 449 00:34:52.329 --> 00:34:57.130 no control of. So on a good day you might have like at this 450 00:34:57.289 --> 00:35:00.690 meeting, you might have ten percent of their attention and ten percent control of 451 00:35:00.809 --> 00:35:02.849 what's going to happen. On a normal day it's probably closer to five. 452 00:35:05.130 --> 00:35:08.320 Yeah, just relax, going there, talk about your stuff, bitch of 453 00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:12.480 concepts. They're probably going to shoot a bunch of them down. They're going 454 00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:15.000 to tell you they want to be brave and then they're going to pick French 455 00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:20.960 Vanilla. Yeah, instead of you know, lightning blue or whatever color you're 456 00:35:20.960 --> 00:35:22.869 trying to get them to go towards. That it's totally about them. It's 457 00:35:22.869 --> 00:35:28.510 not about you. That's nothing to do with you and it and I'm again, 458 00:35:28.829 --> 00:35:32.150 I said again in this show, I'm not the creative type. I'm 459 00:35:32.389 --> 00:35:37.179 ones and Zeros and proud of it. But I the same thing happens when 460 00:35:37.219 --> 00:35:45.019 you present data. You know, the equivalent for a data focus agency or 461 00:35:45.019 --> 00:35:51.289 or data focus marketer of getting your lightning blue shot down is a client looking 462 00:35:51.289 --> 00:35:53.809 at a presentation and saying, where did these numbers come from? Tell me 463 00:35:53.889 --> 00:35:58.289 about that. HMMM, sales, no, HMM, I was just in 464 00:35:58.369 --> 00:36:02.489 a meeting with our VPS sales. You're showing two different numbers. That is 465 00:36:02.610 --> 00:36:07.119 like the equivalent of lightning blue getting shot down a hundred times. You're just 466 00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:14.199 like, Oh my God, yeah, yeah, potentially the inaccurate data and 467 00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:17.559 and now about to start in the internal conflict over whose data is and that's 468 00:36:17.630 --> 00:36:21.710 something you know, coming back to what you can and can't control, you 469 00:36:21.750 --> 00:36:24.909 can come in with the best of intentions, pull the data wrong and then 470 00:36:25.150 --> 00:36:29.269 show it to somebody in see sweet and they're going to shoot you down and 471 00:36:29.309 --> 00:36:30.869 it's going to be one of those awkward meetings. It's just going to suck 472 00:36:30.869 --> 00:36:36.300 until it ends, and it really opposite. We like last week we had 473 00:36:36.300 --> 00:36:40.139 a client who said your numbers are matching up and we had pulled one of 474 00:36:40.179 --> 00:36:45.059 their data sets into our business intelligence tool and we said, well, actually, 475 00:36:45.420 --> 00:36:49.090 in a database it's in. It doesn't total everything up, so our 476 00:36:49.289 --> 00:36:53.329 our bi tool did that for you, and they were like Huh, okay, 477 00:36:53.570 --> 00:36:58.170 and I could see the gears turning, because now they were thinking who 478 00:36:58.250 --> 00:37:01.679 do I need to go backtrack to and correct this data to right, right, 479 00:37:01.719 --> 00:37:06.800 right, for? He's not a fault. I said something that was 480 00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:09.519 inaccurate. Again, that's of intentions, but it happened and people are making 481 00:37:09.599 --> 00:37:14.000 decisions based on this information. So I need help, you know. I 482 00:37:14.159 --> 00:37:15.550 need to figure out who did I tell and when did I tell them? 483 00:37:15.590 --> 00:37:19.389 It's like a chain of evidence, almost like I got to go to this 484 00:37:19.510 --> 00:37:23.429 mental people shade of Em it's that's a block chain is for people. Yeah, 485 00:37:23.750 --> 00:37:29.909 yes, one, number two, another. Yeah, I that is 486 00:37:30.300 --> 00:37:32.980 well. You know, what you just said reminded me of something we talked 487 00:37:34.019 --> 00:37:39.260 about earlier and I guess I would love to spend one of our last few 488 00:37:39.300 --> 00:37:47.090 minutes talking about you was some interesting points of view on Adency client relationships and 489 00:37:49.010 --> 00:37:53.210 the real reasons why agencies get hired and fired, and also the lies that 490 00:37:53.289 --> 00:37:58.489 you think that agencies tell themselves about why it happens. And what you just 491 00:37:58.570 --> 00:38:02.840 said about that conversation sort of made me think of you bringing that up earlier, 492 00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:07.880 and so let's talk about that for a minute. What's your what's your 493 00:38:07.960 --> 00:38:13.949 working theory about the reasons why agencies actually get hired versus maybe why they think 494 00:38:13.989 --> 00:38:19.429 they do and one are the things that agencies should stop telling themselves about why 495 00:38:19.469 --> 00:38:23.190 they're really getting hired? Sure, and and as loud as I have been 496 00:38:23.230 --> 00:38:29.860 about being analytical and ones and zero's, this is a totally qualitative me just 497 00:38:30.139 --> 00:38:34.380 punting the pavement, talking to prospective clients, talking to current clients, talking 498 00:38:34.460 --> 00:38:38.619 to former clients. I really would love to turn this into a cohesive study 499 00:38:38.739 --> 00:38:44.809 or paper, but I'll let you coach for what it's data, I know, 500 00:38:45.010 --> 00:38:49.369 yeah, or some sitting your time about building presentations. I'll let you 501 00:38:49.489 --> 00:38:51.809 coach me through it. If you think I'm getting off practice kind of nudge 502 00:38:51.809 --> 00:38:55.400 be in the right direction. So there's a couple. Here's my working theory. 503 00:38:55.800 --> 00:39:02.440 Agencies get hired for two reasons. It's either expertise or time. I 504 00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:07.760 don't mean time that you build, I mean the client doesn't have time to 505 00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:10.630 do whatever you're being hired to do. They get hired for those two reasons. 506 00:39:10.670 --> 00:39:15.670 Because on the time front, what I found in my reason in my 507 00:39:16.269 --> 00:39:22.829 research is for larger companies they usually have set headcounts that they can add to 508 00:39:22.869 --> 00:39:25.820 the to their department or organization. So they might have the money to go 509 00:39:25.940 --> 00:39:30.820 hire a full time equivalent employee, stick them in and office, give them 510 00:39:30.860 --> 00:39:32.940 a computer and say do this job, but they might not have the head 511 00:39:32.940 --> 00:39:37.929 account for and as incredibly frustrating for clients. I've seen clients who have actually 512 00:39:37.969 --> 00:39:42.929 told me as prospects. They said, to be honest, don't really want 513 00:39:42.929 --> 00:39:45.889 to hire you or anybody. Here's what I want to do, but I 514 00:39:45.010 --> 00:39:51.250 can't do it right right. The other thing that I've heard actually a lot 515 00:39:51.329 --> 00:39:55.119 last right or in a tight labor market, it's top to convince people that 516 00:39:55.280 --> 00:39:59.840 your company is where they should spend forty plus hours a week away from their 517 00:39:59.880 --> 00:40:01.880 family and other, you know, fun stuff that they do. The other 518 00:40:02.039 --> 00:40:08.429 part is experienced or expertise. I talked to multiple prospects last year who almost 519 00:40:08.469 --> 00:40:12.269 use the exact same language. It was like they were talking to one of 520 00:40:12.309 --> 00:40:14.630 them, even though I knew they weren't. They didn't know each other. 521 00:40:15.469 --> 00:40:20.510 And they said we actually have interviewed quite a few people to come work here 522 00:40:20.550 --> 00:40:23.780 full time. Haven't found anybody that we really thought would excel on this job. 523 00:40:24.139 --> 00:40:28.099 And the end of that sentence tends to change either with sell on this 524 00:40:28.179 --> 00:40:30.619 job, who we think we want to hire, who we were impressed with. 525 00:40:31.539 --> 00:40:36.090 Basically, they can't find anyone. It's a tight market and so we 526 00:40:36.769 --> 00:40:39.210 as cut saying the collective week. If you are at an AGC, I'm 527 00:40:39.289 --> 00:40:44.730 speaking to you now. Hm. We show up with the same one talent. 528 00:40:45.130 --> 00:40:47.769 So it's like, Hey, all that painful hr stuff that you're frustrated 529 00:40:47.769 --> 00:40:52.280 about and you've got these open, physical open seats in your office that you're 530 00:40:52.280 --> 00:40:54.079 staring at every day. They're just mocking right, they're looking at you to 531 00:40:54.239 --> 00:40:58.480 that. I dare you to film. You can't find anybody. We show 532 00:40:58.519 --> 00:41:01.360 up with a stable of talent and we say, Hey, meet some of 533 00:41:01.400 --> 00:41:06.190 our people and you like him, I dress, but we're going to bring 534 00:41:06.309 --> 00:41:09.670 you talent to the trough, so to speak, as opposed to you having 535 00:41:09.869 --> 00:41:15.070 to fight the labor market here. So, like I said, usually comes 536 00:41:15.150 --> 00:41:21.139 down to time or expertise. The other thing that I've seen outside that of 537 00:41:21.300 --> 00:41:24.980 my agencies might get hired is so you do have a head count, so 538 00:41:25.179 --> 00:41:30.500 we're let's talk about deal the computer company. They'll has head count. I 539 00:41:30.619 --> 00:41:35.369 hire a senior content strategist. Great. Who does she were report to? 540 00:41:36.489 --> 00:41:39.809 What is her dotted and solid line within the organization? Is there anybody focused 541 00:41:39.849 --> 00:41:44.130 on her development? Because, again, coming back to the tight labor market 542 00:41:44.289 --> 00:41:47.119 comment, and I think unemployment is, you know, hovering someone between three 543 00:41:47.159 --> 00:41:52.039 and five percent. It's usually or a strange when I check if you hired 544 00:41:52.119 --> 00:41:58.719 this person and she has no path to getting getting better, getting promoted, 545 00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:04.630 learning things, being supported internally with a tight labor market, that's not an 546 00:42:04.670 --> 00:42:07.150 attractive job to accept. And she might accept it. She might say that 547 00:42:07.429 --> 00:42:10.789 the pay is good, looks like easy work. It's actually a short community. 548 00:42:10.789 --> 00:42:14.389 It's like a five minute drive from my house. I'll go work here 549 00:42:14.429 --> 00:42:16.500 for a little bit. More often than not, when I'm seen from on 550 00:42:16.699 --> 00:42:22.900 the talent side of the employees who are bringing their talents to the table is 551 00:42:22.980 --> 00:42:27.139 they're just saying listen. If there isn't plan for me, that's not really 552 00:42:27.179 --> 00:42:30.170 attractive. I'm kind of like this hate that at any moment the string could 553 00:42:30.210 --> 00:42:35.369 get by a parasitsten's and nobody's really focused on where I'm flying or how vast 554 00:42:35.449 --> 00:42:37.489 and going or how high I'm flying. That's cleanly not attractive. And so 555 00:42:38.369 --> 00:42:42.250 those are what I'm in. Those are some of the things that I'm starting 556 00:42:42.329 --> 00:42:46.800 to see and I would end with a question that Andre, our sales guy, 557 00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:52.079 and I tend to ask a lot of prospects. We tend to ask 558 00:42:52.440 --> 00:42:55.679 why you hire in an agency, because I truly want to know. Why 559 00:42:55.719 --> 00:43:00.670 don't you hire this in house? Why don't you hire a single ninety nine 560 00:43:00.710 --> 00:43:04.230 contractor? Right is there's so much work here that a single person couldn't do 561 00:43:04.269 --> 00:43:07.550 it. And if you say yes to the agency, that it's you know, 562 00:43:07.949 --> 00:43:12.469 why would you hire the agency that? Why do you want our organizations 563 00:43:12.550 --> 00:43:16.260 to collide work together for the next twelve plus months? And those are the 564 00:43:16.300 --> 00:43:20.500 question of started minds with that. Those are that's where we start getting answers 565 00:43:20.539 --> 00:43:24.659 around time, experience, development of employees, care and higher than full time 566 00:43:24.900 --> 00:43:30.809 inhouse at Dell or wherever you are and those are those are the trends that 567 00:43:30.929 --> 00:43:34.929 I'm seeing a lot of. And and the most I don't want to call 568 00:43:34.929 --> 00:43:39.650 it alarming, but the most intriguing trend is people can't find who they want 569 00:43:40.130 --> 00:43:45.079 and so they're just deciding to hire nobody. It's almost that this asion is 570 00:43:45.280 --> 00:43:50.280 so complex they can't see what they want and so they just make no decision 571 00:43:50.280 --> 00:43:54.239 at all, right here in our voice, right, right. Well, 572 00:43:54.639 --> 00:44:04.070 I think if anyone can develop the data to either flush out that theory or 573 00:44:04.110 --> 00:44:07.710 or lead you to a different conclusion, it's it's you and your team at 574 00:44:07.789 --> 00:44:15.139 kg right though. Yeah, so I would love to see that. If 575 00:44:15.179 --> 00:44:17.139 you ever do that study, let me know because I love to have you 576 00:44:17.219 --> 00:44:21.659 back and I'd love to talk about it. I think I'd be fascinating for 577 00:44:21.860 --> 00:44:25.769 agency folks listening to this to to learn more about the real reasons, because 578 00:44:25.809 --> 00:44:30.289 any data you can gather to help you understand better whether or not you have 579 00:44:30.369 --> 00:44:37.010 a shot, especially in new business situations, is helpful and takes friction out 580 00:44:37.010 --> 00:44:43.840 of the process. And Yeah, this has been a fascinating conversation. I 581 00:44:44.239 --> 00:44:51.960 am I am not personally a data girl, because I think if I had 582 00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:53.949 been, I probably would have chosen a different carror path in my life, 583 00:44:54.110 --> 00:45:02.389 but I know how just increasingly important it is in the life of a marketer 584 00:45:02.750 --> 00:45:07.940 and of an agency that supports marketing, and so it's been fascinating to get 585 00:45:08.619 --> 00:45:13.900 the take of the owner of a data focus. This agency just puts it 586 00:45:13.980 --> 00:45:17.980 right out there from the time you bring a new client on until the time 587 00:45:19.539 --> 00:45:22.210 you're ready to renew or not with them, and so I really appreciate you 588 00:45:22.369 --> 00:45:27.849 sharing your perspective today. Mike. This has been a really interesting conversation. 589 00:45:27.929 --> 00:45:30.090 I learned a lot and I really enjoyed it. So I want to thank 590 00:45:30.130 --> 00:45:34.610 you for being a guest on the podcast and I also want to give the 591 00:45:35.170 --> 00:45:39.199 agency leaders and owners who are listening today an opportunity to learn more about the 592 00:45:39.280 --> 00:45:44.159 work that Mkg does. So where's where the best places that they can reach 593 00:45:44.280 --> 00:45:49.360 you or the agency? Yeah, I'd start with our website. The short 594 00:45:49.559 --> 00:45:57.230 vanity URL is mkg period marketing. Do you type that into your url bar 595 00:45:57.429 --> 00:46:00.110 and the browser you'll go straight to our website. And then we own all 596 00:46:00.150 --> 00:46:07.059 of our social handles by me. So it's mkg marketing, IMC like Charlie, 597 00:46:07.820 --> 00:46:12.099 and if you look us up on twitter, facebook, linkedin or INSTAGRAMM 598 00:46:12.460 --> 00:46:16.059 instagrams new for us to make sure, like all our posts, also appreciated, 599 00:46:16.340 --> 00:46:21.130 and we're always happy to talk to other agency owners. I'm I'm actually 600 00:46:21.250 --> 00:46:25.769 personally part of a few I guess you call like think tank groups, you 601 00:46:25.809 --> 00:46:30.010 know, a fellow agency owners spread across the North America, in the US 602 00:46:30.170 --> 00:46:34.519 and Canada, and we're always talking about, you know, financial metrics, 603 00:46:34.639 --> 00:46:38.559 other questions that are coming up, and so I welcome anybody who wants to 604 00:46:38.639 --> 00:46:44.039 to learn and also to share experience. Really encourage you, you know, 605 00:46:44.199 --> 00:46:46.949 get in touch with me. Let's talk and love to share experiences and learn 606 00:46:46.989 --> 00:46:50.750 from one another, and it's not a competitive thing at all. It's just 607 00:46:51.190 --> 00:46:54.550 two business owners trying to try to navigate the world of building a strong, 608 00:46:54.670 --> 00:46:59.670 healthy agency. I love it. Well, Mike, Thank you so much 609 00:46:59.670 --> 00:47:05.260 for sharing your time and your story today. Really appreciate it and I will 610 00:47:05.260 --> 00:47:08.460 talk with the rest of you the next episode of the Innovative Agency. Thanks 611 00:47:08.500 --> 00:47:15.500 for joining US everyone. We really hope you enjoyed this episode in the Hashtag 612 00:47:15.579 --> 00:47:20.889 Agency series from the innovative agency. To hear more episodes along these lines, 613 00:47:21.050 --> 00:47:25.130 check out the innovative agency in Apple podcast. Your favorite podcast player or the 614 00:47:25.289 --> 00:47:29.610 links right in the show notes for this episode. As always, thank you 615 00:47:29.690 --> 00:47:36.159 so much for listening. One of the things we've learned about podcast audience growth 616 00:47:36.280 --> 00:47:39.480 is that word of mouth works. It works really, really well actually. 617 00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:43.719 So if you love this show, it would be awesome if you texted a 618 00:47:43.760 --> 00:47:45.989 friend to tell them about it, and if you send me a text with 619 00:47:46.110 --> 00:47:50.389 a screenshot of the text you sent to your friend, Metta, I know 620 00:47:50.829 --> 00:47:53.309 I'll send you a copy of my book content based networking, how to instantly 621 00:47:53.389 --> 00:47:58.619 connect with anyone you want to know myself phone numbers four hundred seven, four 622 00:47:58.739 --> 00:48:01.460 nine, hundred three and three, two eight. Happy texting.