May 28, 2021

5 Reasons Why Marketing Ops Should Be One of Your First Hires

In this episode, Dan Sanchez talks to V P of Marketing at Motivosity, Logan Mallory, about why you should consider marketing ops as one of your first hires for you B2B company.

They discuss:

  1. How it leads to revenue faster
  2. How it creates less rework
  3. What becomes more effective
  4. How it benefits the whole team
  5. And who else it might matter to


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Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:02.740 Yeah, 2 00:00:05.040 --> 00:00:08.960 welcome back to GDP Growth. I'm dan Sanchez with Sweet fish Media and today 3 00:00:08.970 --> 00:00:14.130 I'm joined by Logan Mallory, who is the VP of marketing at motive ah city Logan. 4 00:00:14.140 --> 00:00:18.110 How you doing today dan, I'm awesome. Everything is good here in Utah sure 5 00:00:18.110 --> 00:00:21.950 appreciate being able to hang out with you for a little bit. Absolutely for 6 00:00:21.950 --> 00:00:26.970 the audience. We're talking today about five reasons why marketing up should be 7 00:00:26.970 --> 00:00:31.690 one of your first hires and I wanted to talk to Logan about it specifically 8 00:00:31.700 --> 00:00:35.770 because he's gone through the pain of not having that person before and has 9 00:00:35.770 --> 00:00:40.170 recently in the process of getting that person on the team and there's a few 10 00:00:40.170 --> 00:00:42.850 reasons we talked to our pre interview and all the different things we could 11 00:00:42.850 --> 00:00:45.870 go over in this call that that stood out to me is I've been in that pain 12 00:00:45.870 --> 00:00:50.580 before and I wanted to flesh out some of the reasons behind why that is why 13 00:00:50.580 --> 00:00:55.500 you would actually want to make this person your first higher. Um I realized 14 00:00:55.500 --> 00:00:58.850 even in my past, that's been one of my first hires before and I kind of caught 15 00:00:58.850 --> 00:01:03.390 me off guard to even think about it that way because I think it's just it's 16 00:01:03.400 --> 00:01:08.290 uncommon, unfortunately uncommon. So I wanted to talk to marketers today about 17 00:01:08.290 --> 00:01:12.330 that topic. How did this even occur to you to begin with before we jump into 18 00:01:12.330 --> 00:01:16.440 the five reasons? How did this become a topic for you? Yeah, for sure. So I've 19 00:01:16.450 --> 00:01:21.140 been in marketing for quite a while and always have been in this digital world. 20 00:01:21.150 --> 00:01:25.650 Right? And so I think in traditional marketing and certain it's past it 21 00:01:25.650 --> 00:01:31.780 wasn't as important. And I've worked with marketing ops teams that are more 22 00:01:31.780 --> 00:01:35.750 of a burden or an obstacle. They're kind of gatekeepers rather than 23 00:01:35.750 --> 00:01:40.480 partners. And I know how long that makes the work take, right. The work 24 00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:46.460 takes longer. It doesn't move as fast and it's painful. And then when you've 25 00:01:46.460 --> 00:01:50.220 worked with a really great marketing ops team or a really great marketing 26 00:01:50.220 --> 00:01:53.920 ops leader you get the opposite experience. And so kind of having the 27 00:01:53.920 --> 00:01:57.520 contrast of those throughout my career throughout different roles and 28 00:01:57.520 --> 00:02:03.100 throughout my career I learned that a great partner there um makes everything 29 00:02:03.100 --> 00:02:08.370 better. And so um I knew that the next time I was building a team from scratch 30 00:02:08.370 --> 00:02:11.890 or or growing a team that that was going to be one of the very first 31 00:02:11.890 --> 00:02:17.150 things that I that I focused on. Well say I've outside his sweet fish. 32 00:02:17.150 --> 00:02:20.520 There's only one marketing team I belt before and it was it ended up being a 33 00:02:20.520 --> 00:02:23.010 marketing office person I hired. That was before I even understood what 34 00:02:23.010 --> 00:02:26.880 marketing ops was. I just I like almost called the I. T. Part two because I 35 00:02:26.880 --> 00:02:30.130 didn't know what to call it, I was in a beat, I was working in higher education 36 00:02:30.140 --> 00:02:34.160 and I didn't have the vocabulary for it. I'm like well we're like we're running 37 00:02:34.160 --> 00:02:38.100 all the websites practically running all the technology, the crm I'm even 38 00:02:38.100 --> 00:02:41.450 running the sales enablement, like all the call center text, I'm like we're 39 00:02:41.450 --> 00:02:46.780 just I. T. Part two. Uh And so I think but it becomes it's it's hard to set up, 40 00:02:46.780 --> 00:02:50.660 it takes a ton of time to get everything done right. Um So I ended up 41 00:02:50.660 --> 00:02:53.870 becoming my first hire now I'm working with a team of four and it's not 42 00:02:53.870 --> 00:02:58.300 somebody on my team and I'm filling it I think dan in the you know when when I 43 00:02:58.300 --> 00:03:02.740 first started my career we kind of had a marketing automation, you know 44 00:03:02.740 --> 00:03:08.010 specialists or marketing automation managers and um they were kind of seen 45 00:03:08.010 --> 00:03:13.330 as their own entity but as the industry has matured and you know your your 46 00:03:13.330 --> 00:03:17.380 hubspot or your marcato or your party for instance has has become like the 47 00:03:17.380 --> 00:03:23.160 center of the marketing tech stack that really enabled those automation people 48 00:03:23.160 --> 00:03:29.000 to move into that ops role and they're fantastic at it. So I do think it has 49 00:03:29.000 --> 00:03:32.980 changed over the last few years where used to start off in marketing 50 00:03:32.980 --> 00:03:37.590 automation and now that almost always falls under ops as it should as it 51 00:03:37.590 --> 00:03:41.080 should. Yeah. I mean it started with email marketing, right. And then those 52 00:03:41.080 --> 00:03:44.880 email marketing became drip sequences and those drips sequences and 53 00:03:44.880 --> 00:03:48.700 statements in it and became more sophisticated drip sequences. And then 54 00:03:48.700 --> 00:03:53.630 you started triggering text messages and landing pages and you started doing 55 00:03:53.630 --> 00:03:56.500 weird things with the options around your website and customizing. And 56 00:03:56.500 --> 00:03:59.720 before you know it you had these very sophisticated campaigns that was way 57 00:03:59.720 --> 00:04:02.950 more than email. Way more than marking the automation. It was like a whole 58 00:04:02.950 --> 00:04:08.620 system and into it was very just well I. T. Part to what intricate intricate for 59 00:04:08.620 --> 00:04:13.740 sure. Technology heavy but not quite email. Not quite I. P. Stuff you know I. 60 00:04:13.740 --> 00:04:16.839 P. Addresses and all this stuff I. T. Has to deal with you know dealing with 61 00:04:16.839 --> 00:04:20.329 vectors, you're dealing with process maps and all that kind of data 62 00:04:20.339 --> 00:04:23.880 databases of people and where they're at in the customer journey and what 63 00:04:23.880 --> 00:04:27.520 they've experienced and where they came from the works. It's a it's a never 64 00:04:27.520 --> 00:04:31.450 ending list for that crew. So let's dive into some of the reasons why this 65 00:04:31.450 --> 00:04:35.280 is the right person to hire and the benefits of it. You mentioned one was 66 00:04:35.280 --> 00:04:39.950 just getting better attribution. How is it give you better attribution for your 67 00:04:39.950 --> 00:04:45.130 marketing and why is that important? Yeah, for sure. So any any good 68 00:04:45.130 --> 00:04:48.720 marketer is running multiple campaigns right? If you're only if you're only 69 00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:53.680 running one type of medium or one tool and your that simplified then you are 70 00:04:53.680 --> 00:04:58.500 missing out on a lot of opportunities for growth and expansion. But the more 71 00:04:58.500 --> 00:05:03.490 that you put into the system and the larger your ecosystem is the more 72 00:05:03.490 --> 00:05:08.660 confusing the attribution gets right. And I think in marketing we sometimes 73 00:05:08.670 --> 00:05:13.880 over we've made that way more complex. We talk about, you know, you you curved 74 00:05:13.880 --> 00:05:18.530 attribution and w curve attribution or first or last touch. And sometimes I 75 00:05:18.530 --> 00:05:23.180 think we just make that really complex. The reality is you need to know that if 76 00:05:23.180 --> 00:05:26.800 you put a dollar in, where was where was the person? And what were they 77 00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:30.610 experiencing when they raised their hand? Right. If you can boil it down to 78 00:05:30.610 --> 00:05:35.020 that, then you can make some really wise program decisions and a good 79 00:05:35.020 --> 00:05:39.230 marketing ops team. They can, you know, their intricate in how they manage 80 00:05:39.230 --> 00:05:44.480 forms on websites. They think about the tracking and the attribution from 3rd 81 00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:49.110 Party traffic. Um They, you know, they think about how that carries into the 82 00:05:49.110 --> 00:05:54.920 systems, in which fields it populates inside of the automation or the uh 83 00:05:54.920 --> 00:05:59.800 hubspot or marcato. And so keeping track of that and knowing what's coming 84 00:05:59.800 --> 00:06:05.140 from where really does allow you to make better decisions. You can you can 85 00:06:05.140 --> 00:06:10.580 look back and say we put an X. It led to Y. And therefore we're going to put 86 00:06:10.580 --> 00:06:15.890 Z extra dollars into that program. Or maybe it's not dollars, maybe its time 87 00:06:15.890 --> 00:06:21.430 and resources. It's it's humans focus and even knowing that you're spending 88 00:06:21.430 --> 00:06:25.570 that in the right place makes all the difference. I love how, like 89 00:06:25.570 --> 00:06:28.690 attribution is a really complex topic. In fact, we're gonna do a deep dive in 90 00:06:28.690 --> 00:06:32.050 the future just on attribution alone because it's worth, I can spend a whole 91 00:06:32.050 --> 00:06:36.430 month unpacking just that one topic I find that a marketing office person is 92 00:06:36.430 --> 00:06:39.680 probably even better. Not even there's like the top level marketing 93 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:44.580 attribution right? Of like assessing different channels and how they grew 94 00:06:44.580 --> 00:06:47.890 all up to our Oh I but I do find that it's even technical to try to figure it 95 00:06:47.890 --> 00:06:52.530 out within a small ecosystem, right? Adwords alone is a lot of set up and 96 00:06:52.530 --> 00:06:55.860 tracking just to make sure like even within just the Adwords ecosystem of 97 00:06:55.860 --> 00:06:59.880 just cost per lead is set up correctly so that you can measure how well 98 00:06:59.880 --> 00:07:04.200 Adwords is just even a generating leads, let alone revenue. Right? There's a lot 99 00:07:04.200 --> 00:07:07.430 of technical setup and just setting up all the different channels and making 100 00:07:07.430 --> 00:07:11.530 sure you can actually even tagged them correctly right? You have things being 101 00:07:11.530 --> 00:07:15.650 piped in and things being piped out and sometimes you want the data in one 102 00:07:15.650 --> 00:07:21.490 place and not in another. But but when a good marketing ops team member and 103 00:07:21.490 --> 00:07:27.140 partner can focus on that and make it clear where the traffic is coming from 104 00:07:27.140 --> 00:07:30.790 and think about google. Like you mentioned, the intensity of individual 105 00:07:30.790 --> 00:07:34.320 platforms, think about your google analytics set up. If you are making 106 00:07:34.320 --> 00:07:39.000 decisions based on that and things are tagged incorrectly or events are firing 107 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:43.380 at the wrong time or your goals aren't set up right, then you're trying to 108 00:07:43.380 --> 00:07:47.540 make decisions with bad data and it's not just about the data, it's about the 109 00:07:47.540 --> 00:07:51.130 thought process and the customer journey. But if you don't have somebody 110 00:07:51.130 --> 00:07:54.760 paying attention to that that's skilled and talented, then you are going to 111 00:07:54.760 --> 00:08:00.380 make the wrong investments. Eventually it kind of leads into the second point 112 00:08:00.380 --> 00:08:04.490 you gave us. So if you hire a marketing ops person really early, you have to do 113 00:08:04.490 --> 00:08:07.960 less rework. What are some of the rework you would typically have to do 114 00:08:07.960 --> 00:08:11.880 if you didn't hire that person earlier? Yeah, I think, I think when you are in 115 00:08:11.880 --> 00:08:17.040 an organization and you were trying to be scrappy and most companies don't 116 00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:20.640 hire someone in marketing ops right away, they'll hire somebody to create 117 00:08:20.640 --> 00:08:24.870 content. They'll hire somebody to run adwords. Maybe you've got a web 118 00:08:24.870 --> 00:08:29.350 developer depending on your setup. But when you when you don't have somebody 119 00:08:29.350 --> 00:08:33.370 from a marketing from a marketing office perspective, Everyone's kind of 120 00:08:33.370 --> 00:08:37.750 hacking things together. There's this scene and I talk about this story a lot 121 00:08:37.760 --> 00:08:43.530 in a different setting, but have you ever seen Apollo 13 Dan. Of course. So 122 00:08:43.539 --> 00:08:47.430 remember in Apollo 13 where the astronauts are in space and this 123 00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:52.680 Houston we have a problem. And then the engineers, I can't remember if they 124 00:08:52.680 --> 00:08:56.840 were in florida Houston, but the engineers at Nasa walk into the room 125 00:08:56.850 --> 00:09:00.840 and they go, all right, we got to figure out how to get this square into 126 00:09:00.840 --> 00:09:05.010 this circle and this is what we can do it with. And then they dump out the box 127 00:09:05.010 --> 00:09:09.220 of supplies onto the table. It's a great scene, right? And I always talk 128 00:09:09.220 --> 00:09:13.040 about that from like the kind of people I want to hire, people who are scrappy 129 00:09:13.050 --> 00:09:16.680 people who look around the room and figure out what we have and make it 130 00:09:16.690 --> 00:09:21.490 work. And there's something I don't know honourable about that, being able 131 00:09:21.490 --> 00:09:26.030 to figure out like how to solve problems without every single tool or 132 00:09:26.030 --> 00:09:30.880 piece of marketing technology. But that almost always means that there's 133 00:09:30.890 --> 00:09:35.140 inefficiencies, there's gaps, there's things that take longer than they 134 00:09:35.150 --> 00:09:40.130 should there leads they get lost. And so when I as a kind of high level 135 00:09:40.130 --> 00:09:44.500 marketing leader come in and try to piece things together, I'm losing 136 00:09:44.500 --> 00:09:49.050 efficiency all over the place. I don't have time to a b test every part of the 137 00:09:49.050 --> 00:09:54.140 nurture. I don't have time to make sure we're not losing leads through a 138 00:09:54.140 --> 00:09:57.990 different, through a different lead source. And so a marketing ops person, 139 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:02.750 if they can come in and build that intentionally, it means they don't have 140 00:10:02.750 --> 00:10:09.290 to rebuild what I or someone else hacked together. And so it really does. 141 00:10:09.300 --> 00:10:14.630 It sets you off on a better foot earlier rather than having to catch up. 142 00:10:14.640 --> 00:10:19.020 And that ketchup can take months or years, right. If you bring somebody on 143 00:10:19.020 --> 00:10:23.340 and the infrastructure is all in place, they could spend quarters learning 144 00:10:23.340 --> 00:10:27.960 what's they're coming up with a new plan and implementing it rather than if 145 00:10:27.960 --> 00:10:30.190 you would've just had them start, they could have done it right for you the 146 00:10:30.190 --> 00:10:35.530 first time, kind of like trading the speed and scale now for later. Right, 147 00:10:35.540 --> 00:10:39.590 Well you might get ahead by three months now, but that's gonna cost you a 148 00:10:39.590 --> 00:10:42.700 year and a half a rework later because the ship is going to be bigger and it's 149 00:10:42.700 --> 00:10:46.520 harder to turn a big ship, right? So it's kind of depends on where you want 150 00:10:46.520 --> 00:10:50.390 to go whenever you start up, has to assess that differently. You know, our 151 00:10:50.390 --> 00:10:53.590 scale up, you have to kind of assess like, I don't know, do we need that 152 00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:56.490 accelerated growth now or can we afford to slow it down a little bit so they 153 00:10:56.490 --> 00:11:00.950 can grow faster later? Yeah, for sure. And it's it's so easy to think like oh 154 00:11:00.950 --> 00:11:05.050 we'll solve that later and then you don't write like you just you just 155 00:11:05.050 --> 00:11:09.810 leave it there and it sits in the corner and um you continue to to hack 156 00:11:09.810 --> 00:11:14.100 your way through it. So a good marketing ops leader and partner gets 157 00:11:14.100 --> 00:11:18.750 things set up right the first time and then from there on out your your 158 00:11:18.750 --> 00:11:23.060 running at full speed rather than limping along. Gosh, I feel like I've 159 00:11:23.060 --> 00:11:25.810 been on both sides, I've done things right the first time I've been in other 160 00:11:25.810 --> 00:11:29.970 situations where I've literally implemented one system and then someone 161 00:11:29.970 --> 00:11:33.420 took over implemented a different system and then I had three systems to 162 00:11:33.420 --> 00:11:38.520 migrate from them and then it took to all my little over two years in order 163 00:11:38.520 --> 00:11:41.970 to get it done. That was a lot of work to get it done right. It's brutal, 164 00:11:41.970 --> 00:11:45.520 isn't it? All the systems that were like, we have these three half 165 00:11:45.520 --> 00:11:51.930 implemented systems and this one well and there's an emotional burden 166 00:11:51.930 --> 00:11:56.440 associated with that, right? Like when you have to do manual work because your 167 00:11:56.440 --> 00:12:01.210 systems are bad. That's a really frustrating hour or hour and a half of 168 00:12:01.210 --> 00:12:05.410 your day. You don't feel great doing that work because it's not your best 169 00:12:05.410 --> 00:12:10.860 work, it's not efficient and so you're not excited about it and why should you? 170 00:12:11.340 --> 00:12:17.790 So there's an emotional tax associated with, with those with with the re work 171 00:12:17.800 --> 00:12:21.060 that needs to be done and the work waiting to be done until the re work is 172 00:12:21.060 --> 00:12:25.440 finished. So that's talking about rework which kind of leads into the 173 00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:29.180 next point of everything is just more effective when you start right from the 174 00:12:29.180 --> 00:12:32.960 beginning. And it's kind of like of course you don't have to do the rework 175 00:12:32.960 --> 00:12:35.750 so it's more effective. But what are some of the efficiencies you gain when 176 00:12:35.750 --> 00:12:39.000 it's all set up right from the beginning? I think I think where I 177 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:42.950 would focus on the most here is something that marketers need to do a 178 00:12:42.950 --> 00:12:47.360 better job of, we need to be more revenue focused. So many of us are 179 00:12:47.360 --> 00:12:51.820 focused on how many pieces of content we created in a quarter. The next event 180 00:12:51.820 --> 00:12:56.920 that we put on. Um you know, we focus on these high level, I don't want to 181 00:12:56.920 --> 00:13:02.170 say vanity metrics but these high level metrics that are good and we need them 182 00:13:02.180 --> 00:13:06.650 but they don't necessarily drive the revenue that the sales team is trying 183 00:13:06.650 --> 00:13:11.570 to hit. And so one thing that I I hope we all start to do better as marketing 184 00:13:11.570 --> 00:13:16.210 leaders is to coordinate and collaborate with sales more than we 185 00:13:16.210 --> 00:13:22.560 have so often. That's a relationship like filled with friction and anxiety 186 00:13:22.560 --> 00:13:27.570 and frustration. And we all know that like death cycle where sales doesn't 187 00:13:27.570 --> 00:13:30.610 perform, they blame marketing. Marketing says, well sales, you didn't 188 00:13:30.610 --> 00:13:34.740 do anything with what we sent you. Right. And so I think the most, the 189 00:13:34.750 --> 00:13:40.470 place where a marketing ops team can make marketers the most efficient is in 190 00:13:40.470 --> 00:13:45.400 tracking revenue. Right? And so one of the things that a wonderful marketing 191 00:13:45.400 --> 00:13:50.960 ops leader that I worked with helped me establish was basically a revenue 192 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:55.450 forecast. And so we would look historically at what our leads and 193 00:13:55.450 --> 00:13:59.470 opportunities would produce, how much pipeline or closed one revenue they 194 00:13:59.470 --> 00:14:06.360 would produce. We'd track that over time and then we would apply it to our 195 00:14:06.740 --> 00:14:11.270 our forecasted incoming leads for the next month. So we take historical 196 00:14:11.270 --> 00:14:16.740 revenue and historical pipeline. We'd apply it to next month's lead forecast 197 00:14:16.750 --> 00:14:21.200 and we would come up with a pipeline forecast. So instead of just saying yes, 198 00:14:21.210 --> 00:14:24.600 we're going to run these programs and we expect this many leads. We would go 199 00:14:24.600 --> 00:14:29.180 through and would literally say we expect X leads from adwords and why 200 00:14:29.180 --> 00:14:34.080 leads from paid social and z leads from this webinar and based off of those 201 00:14:34.080 --> 00:14:40.020 different lead sources, we could plan on a B or C dollars worth of pipeline. 202 00:14:40.170 --> 00:14:45.690 And so what that did was it built insane amounts of confidence from our 203 00:14:45.690 --> 00:14:50.000 sales counterparts. When we said this is how much revenue we think we can get 204 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:57.080 you to. We knew that within, you know, 90, accuracy, that's what we would get 205 00:14:57.080 --> 00:15:01.840 them to. And that's the perfect example of how we're marketing. Ops Leader can 206 00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:07.160 make you more efficient from the very get go. Hi dan Sanchez here with a 207 00:15:07.160 --> 00:15:11.850 quick break from this episode, sponsor Vidyard. 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So 215 00:15:46.470 --> 00:15:52.110 sign up for Vidyard free today by going to Vidyard dot com slash GDP growth and 216 00:15:52.110 --> 00:15:56.310 just like you guys, the team at Vidyard can't keep up with all these promo 217 00:15:56.310 --> 00:16:01.370 codes on podcasts, so they are making signing up as easy as possible. So no 218 00:16:01.370 --> 00:16:05.730 promo code needed. Just go to Vidyard dot com slash GDP growth. So start 219 00:16:05.730 --> 00:16:11.260 using vidyard completely free and as a bonus, get their 2021 B two B video 220 00:16:11.260 --> 00:16:16.450 trans guide. It sounds like the dream right. Being able to predict within 221 00:16:16.450 --> 00:16:21.900 that kind of accuracy. Yeah, easy to say so hard to accomplish. But I think 222 00:16:22.030 --> 00:16:27.450 the magic behind the scenes And I think one thing about that is oftentimes when 223 00:16:27.450 --> 00:16:31.340 we're less technical, we just try to look at things through one lens. We say 224 00:16:31.340 --> 00:16:34.470 things like I'm going to bring in and I'm making numbers up. I'm going to 225 00:16:34.470 --> 00:16:39.430 bring in 200 leads this month for the sales team. What marketing ops can 226 00:16:39.430 --> 00:16:44.570 really help us to do is to be more granular, Right? And to look at things 227 00:16:44.570 --> 00:16:48.800 that are more at a tighter focus. So rather than focusing on our program in 228 00:16:48.800 --> 00:16:54.950 general, what will each lead source do or what will a campaign provide? And 229 00:16:54.950 --> 00:16:59.080 when we break things down more granular, Then we don't have to work on an 230 00:16:59.090 --> 00:17:03.890 average level. Right? We don't have to say our average lead. Our average 231 00:17:03.890 --> 00:17:09.170 conversion rate is 25%. We can say our average conversion rate for adwords is 232 00:17:09.170 --> 00:17:13.640 40. Our average conversion rate for a webinar is five. Right? And so we can 233 00:17:13.640 --> 00:17:17.619 be more granular and therefore more accurate. And I love that when a 234 00:17:17.619 --> 00:17:22.800 marketing, when a when a mops partner gets that, it is just like clockwork. 235 00:17:22.800 --> 00:17:27.260 You can you can really work some magic in any sized organization. one thing 236 00:17:27.260 --> 00:17:31.840 that you mentioned to me that really stood out to me because it's something 237 00:17:31.840 --> 00:17:34.770 I'm like, you know what? That's right. But I never really thought about this 238 00:17:34.770 --> 00:17:38.710 dynamic of a good marketing ops person as you said it brings maturity to your 239 00:17:38.710 --> 00:17:45.880 whole team. Yeah. So in college programs You can't keep up with 240 00:17:45.880 --> 00:17:49.180 marketing, right? So when you have these college professors that have been 241 00:17:49.190 --> 00:17:53.580 that have been in academia for 20 years and they're teaching about marketing, 242 00:17:53.860 --> 00:18:00.120 they haven't been in it recently enough to teach about attribution or google 243 00:18:00.120 --> 00:18:05.210 analytics or U. T. M. S. Right? Like like or a C. I. D. Coats right? Like 244 00:18:05.210 --> 00:18:10.340 they haven't been in it enough to teach about those things. And so entry level 245 00:18:10.340 --> 00:18:14.880 marketing employees come in and they have no clue what U. T. M. Under source. 246 00:18:14.890 --> 00:18:20.460 Underscore source equals is or underscore campaign equals is like they 247 00:18:20.460 --> 00:18:24.010 don't know what that is. And so a marketing ops partner that is that is 248 00:18:24.010 --> 00:18:28.270 seasoned, right? And I'm talking about a leader not not someone who's on their 249 00:18:28.270 --> 00:18:33.140 first gig in their first six months in it, but a marketing leader like that 250 00:18:33.150 --> 00:18:39.610 can teach the rest of your team how to think about marketing from an analytics 251 00:18:39.610 --> 00:18:45.670 and a digital and a reporting stand perspective. So I actually have a great 252 00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:49.670 his name is Reicher Rikers on my team here at motive osce Itty and we've got 253 00:18:49.670 --> 00:18:52.790 a little bit of a younger team here which is fantastic. They bring energy 254 00:18:52.790 --> 00:18:58.470 and new ideas and new perspectives. I had Reicher take an entire section of 255 00:18:58.470 --> 00:19:04.760 our of our all hands meeting and teach about you tms basically from one oh one 256 00:19:04.770 --> 00:19:08.420 because I knew they weren't getting it in school. I could tell that they 257 00:19:08.420 --> 00:19:11.980 weren't learning about it in their previous roles. But Ryker knows that 258 00:19:11.980 --> 00:19:16.160 stuff back and forth left and right, right. And so he helped me mature the 259 00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:21.230 team and where before they weren't thinking about attribution and tags and 260 00:19:21.240 --> 00:19:26.300 keeping track of their spend. Now we make sure things go through Rikers 261 00:19:26.300 --> 00:19:30.590 filter and they understand why we're doing that. It's not just an extra box, 262 00:19:30.650 --> 00:19:35.840 they see the value. So we have all leveled up at our organization for 263 00:19:35.840 --> 00:19:39.370 having record on our team. So it's essentially training your team and more 264 00:19:39.370 --> 00:19:42.270 of the technical side of marketing because I mean, even if they are 265 00:19:42.270 --> 00:19:45.540 teaching good marketing, which I'd say most colleges aren't even really 266 00:19:45.540 --> 00:19:49.580 teaching the good basics of mark, not at all. How to write the poppy, how to 267 00:19:49.580 --> 00:19:53.060 find your right audience, how to how to write good value propositions that's 268 00:19:53.070 --> 00:19:57.780 like mentioned value proposition, right. Uh so they're not doing that, but then 269 00:19:57.780 --> 00:20:00.770 they're definitely not covering the technical side which is like you teams 270 00:20:00.940 --> 00:20:04.640 highly technical and how it captures those and how it loads into the google 271 00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:08.120 analytics and all that kind of stuff. It almost essentially kind of builds a 272 00:20:08.120 --> 00:20:13.210 technical prowess of the team, which is highly important for both the strategic 273 00:20:13.210 --> 00:20:17.710 and tactical execution of any modern marketing. Right? Um, you say it goes 274 00:20:17.710 --> 00:20:22.190 beyond technical or is it mostly like a technical maturity that it brings? I 275 00:20:22.190 --> 00:20:26.770 would say there's another side of that. Oftentimes they help provide a better 276 00:20:26.770 --> 00:20:31.340 perspective of realities. Sometimes we as marketers, we dream a lot and we 277 00:20:31.340 --> 00:20:35.570 think this would be fun and what if we did this and because of their 278 00:20:35.570 --> 00:20:40.290 personality, marketing office person is probably a little bit more analytical, 279 00:20:40.300 --> 00:20:45.730 a little bit more realistic, they're aware of constraints. And so they 280 00:20:45.730 --> 00:20:49.890 provide some balance to a marketing team instead of everybody kind of, you 281 00:20:49.890 --> 00:20:52.770 know, wanting to buy giant planking boards, which I bought a giant plank 282 00:20:52.770 --> 00:20:55.850 aboard the other day, but instead of everyone wanted to just have fun and 283 00:20:55.850 --> 00:21:00.190 make things awesome. They help you think about like real constraints, 284 00:21:00.190 --> 00:21:06.840 which is important. And so, um I think that balance absolutely matures a team 285 00:21:06.850 --> 00:21:10.010 and we think about that in different ways throughout the organization 286 00:21:10.010 --> 00:21:15.900 broadly, we talk about diversity and inclusion and the marketing ops person 287 00:21:15.910 --> 00:21:20.960 within the marketing team provides some diversity of thought. So I hope that's 288 00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:25.550 not an insensitive way to frame that. I don't I don't mean that that solves any, 289 00:21:25.740 --> 00:21:29.950 you know, diversity and inclusion solutions. But having that person 290 00:21:29.950 --> 00:21:34.550 within the microcosm of a marketing team make sure that you are thinking 291 00:21:34.560 --> 00:21:39.650 more than just the creative branding, bright colour side of marketing makes 292 00:21:39.650 --> 00:21:43.760 so much sense. One of the reasons why I like my marketing ops person in my last 293 00:21:43.760 --> 00:21:47.140 job was because he actually came from a hard science background. He was a 294 00:21:47.140 --> 00:21:51.150 chemist and had done like post grad work in chemistry. So he's like highly 295 00:21:51.150 --> 00:21:55.050 analytical and he had some programming experience, he's highly technical, 296 00:21:55.060 --> 00:21:59.180 didn't know anything about marketing, which was fine. I taught him all the 297 00:21:59.180 --> 00:22:03.100 basics and he knew and marketing took over adwords and then are and Crm and 298 00:22:03.100 --> 00:22:07.410 they are all our websites help me code a lot of fun things around the website. 299 00:22:07.420 --> 00:22:11.200 You know, it's funny you mentioned that depth e brought on the technical 300 00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:14.810 analytical side and the stuff he could do with Excel and just getting us to 301 00:22:14.810 --> 00:22:19.350 think at a different level and analytically was unbelievable. Yeah. I 302 00:22:19.350 --> 00:22:23.650 kind of feel you when you talk about like different level of thinking. Yeah, 303 00:22:23.650 --> 00:22:29.280 they do. I it's funny you say that one of the organizations I worked for a few 304 00:22:29.280 --> 00:22:34.320 years ago um are the gentleman who ran our marketing ops team had studied 305 00:22:34.330 --> 00:22:40.350 architecture in his uh in his for his his undergraduate degree. So he he 306 00:22:40.350 --> 00:22:45.300 studied architecture, did an internship and said, now this isn't really for me, 307 00:22:45.300 --> 00:22:50.280 and uh and and jumped into marketing operations and he was incredible. The 308 00:22:50.280 --> 00:22:55.080 guy, the guy was a wizard and could do things in in uh in minutes, that would 309 00:22:55.080 --> 00:23:00.830 take average teams months. So he was he was great to work with. So maybe that's 310 00:23:00.830 --> 00:23:04.150 kind of a tip for anybody listening to this. If you want to like bringing 311 00:23:04.150 --> 00:23:08.780 someone entry, looked at one of the hard skills that could be engineering 312 00:23:08.790 --> 00:23:12.730 could be the hard sciences, anybody who's really good at like physics or 313 00:23:12.730 --> 00:23:17.860 chemistry, those guys are just amazing. Um But architecture, that's one, I 314 00:23:17.860 --> 00:23:20.670 didn't think that's a different one, work out really well, have a different 315 00:23:20.670 --> 00:23:24.010 way of thinking that would probably apply really well to uh to marketing. 316 00:23:24.010 --> 00:23:27.930 Ops of course, most markets don't have a background in education, They didn't 317 00:23:27.930 --> 00:23:31.550 study marketing is their major motion. A lot of people are marketing anyway. 318 00:23:31.580 --> 00:23:36.480 We jump over from some other world dan. One other thing that frankly just came 319 00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:40.880 to me, I hadn't really thought about it in our preparation discussions, but one 320 00:23:40.880 --> 00:23:45.830 other thing that marketing Ops leaders do is they are an excellent external 321 00:23:45.840 --> 00:23:50.550 partner, right, meaning no one is better equipped to go talk to your 322 00:23:50.550 --> 00:23:55.120 sales operations counterparts. Right? And oftentimes if there's some 323 00:23:55.120 --> 00:23:58.820 technical technical knowledge that's needed on the product side, your 324 00:23:58.820 --> 00:24:03.260 marketing Ops person can speak that language and so they do mature the team 325 00:24:03.270 --> 00:24:09.280 in that they provide this kind of technical resource that other parts of 326 00:24:09.280 --> 00:24:15.310 the entity can connect into. Whereas love creative directors, love marketing 327 00:24:15.310 --> 00:24:19.220 managers like myself, but we're not always technical and therefore that 328 00:24:19.220 --> 00:24:23.210 limits how we can interact with other people. Think about if your Web deV 329 00:24:23.210 --> 00:24:27.550 team is hosted by the is housed within the engineering department like 330 00:24:28.140 --> 00:24:32.880 Marketing Ops person can be way more efficient as a translator and as a I'm 331 00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:38.650 going to say an ambassador than your average marketing employee makes sense. 332 00:24:38.650 --> 00:24:41.500 They certainly interface better than with all the other technical people 333 00:24:41.500 --> 00:24:45.900 around the work. And I'd say, yeah, even your thin op team or whatever 334 00:24:46.080 --> 00:24:50.280 depending on what you're doing there all okay to speak each other's 335 00:24:50.280 --> 00:24:54.790 languages a lot more easily. Exactly. Exactly. One of the last things you 336 00:24:54.790 --> 00:24:58.440 mentioned around why you should hire a marketing ops person pretty early was 337 00:24:58.440 --> 00:25:02.960 that it makes you look a lot better in front of your executive team. Gosh, 338 00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:07.180 that's such a selfish answer, isn't it? My goodness. Um listening to that back, 339 00:25:07.180 --> 00:25:11.660 I'm like that's that seems so selfish. But let me explain that one, I'm about 340 00:25:11.660 --> 00:25:15.230 to go into a market with the executive team tomorrow. I said on our executive 341 00:25:15.230 --> 00:25:19.950 team here at motor velocity once a month or once a time period, each 342 00:25:19.950 --> 00:25:23.660 department does a deep dive, right? And it's a little bit like a quarterly 343 00:25:23.660 --> 00:25:27.680 business review where we say, here's the things that were amazing. Here's 344 00:25:27.680 --> 00:25:32.130 the things that are broken, here's what we're working on. And I spent a full 345 00:25:32.130 --> 00:25:38.290 day with Reicher whose who runs my marketing ops team side by side. And we 346 00:25:38.290 --> 00:25:43.210 went through reports and we went through graphs and charts and analytics. 347 00:25:43.220 --> 00:25:47.920 We did some quantitative and then we did some qualitative analysis where we 348 00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:53.040 dug into specific lead sources. We dug into specific parts of the sales cycle. 349 00:25:53.050 --> 00:26:00.340 We dug into our technology and our tech stack and we spent that time so that 350 00:26:00.350 --> 00:26:05.220 we'd be ready for this meeting. And that doesn't sound like anything 351 00:26:05.220 --> 00:26:05.850 special. 352 00:26:07.240 --> 00:26:13.430 But Riker gave me a level of understanding that I don't and can't 353 00:26:13.430 --> 00:26:18.440 have on my own right with all the things that I'm managing budget, hiring, 354 00:26:18.450 --> 00:26:25.090 strategy, speaking engagements. I can't, I can't be an expert on everything, but 355 00:26:25.090 --> 00:26:30.340 my marketing ops partner helps me to do that and helps me to like understand 356 00:26:30.340 --> 00:26:34.880 what's important and what's noise. So when I go into that executive meeting, 357 00:26:34.890 --> 00:26:39.700 I feel ultra confident, right? And I feel confident because I can get up and 358 00:26:39.700 --> 00:26:44.270 speak to it. And I know that if for some reason I can't, my partner can go 359 00:26:44.280 --> 00:26:49.810 a mile deep and a mile wide if he needs to and in front of that executive team. 360 00:26:49.820 --> 00:26:55.920 So for me, I'm not alone, right? And and again, that diversity of thought, 361 00:26:55.920 --> 00:27:00.670 that diversity of experience, that technical knowledge when I'm when I'm 362 00:27:00.670 --> 00:27:04.950 in that meeting, I know that I can count on him and have been able to on 363 00:27:04.950 --> 00:27:09.360 my on my marketing operations counterparts in the past, I can count 364 00:27:09.360 --> 00:27:15.840 on them and therefore we as a team look polished and prepared and knowledgeable 365 00:27:15.850 --> 00:27:20.210 because we are so maybe maybe the reason that when you asked me that 366 00:27:20.210 --> 00:27:22.410 question, which we had talked about, maybe the reason that felt 367 00:27:22.410 --> 00:27:26.020 uncomfortable is because I said, it makes me look good in front of the 368 00:27:26.020 --> 00:27:30.620 executive team. And maybe the better way to say that is makes the marketing 369 00:27:30.620 --> 00:27:35.620 team look better in front of the exact it's selfish. Yes, it does make you 370 00:27:35.630 --> 00:27:38.350 individually look good because you're the leader of the team. And so yeah, 371 00:27:38.350 --> 00:27:42.690 there there's a lot of benefits to that. But by looking, making the team in 372 00:27:42.690 --> 00:27:45.900 yourself look good in front of the executive team, it gives you more 373 00:27:45.900 --> 00:27:50.090 ability to get buy in on other things that could help the team needs more 374 00:27:50.090 --> 00:27:52.800 help with this needs budget for this. The things they've been bugging you 375 00:27:52.800 --> 00:27:55.620 about, well now you're going to be able to go get the resources that they've 376 00:27:55.620 --> 00:27:59.050 been asking you for, you're gonna be able to hire that person which is a new 377 00:27:59.060 --> 00:28:04.020 job creation, right? So yes, it's selfish, but it's also, I mean if 378 00:28:04.020 --> 00:28:09.020 you're a good leader, it's it's for the team. Sure. Yes, I had to do look good 379 00:28:09.030 --> 00:28:13.750 yourself to. It's not necessarily Yeah, of course. That definitely helps one of 380 00:28:13.760 --> 00:28:17.510 balancing yourself with the team. One of the Yeah, and we've got an awesome 381 00:28:17.510 --> 00:28:22.220 team over here. It's uh and not not a sales pitch but motive velocity is all 382 00:28:22.220 --> 00:28:26.130 about peer to peer recognition. And so we do our, we do a really good, I got 383 00:28:26.130 --> 00:28:29.920 my things matter shirt today on, in fact we do a pretty good job of making 384 00:28:29.920 --> 00:28:33.680 sure everyone is appreciated and recognized and I hope, I hope my team 385 00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:36.730 feels that they're awesome. One of one of the things that just kind of 386 00:28:36.730 --> 00:28:40.500 triggered for me as you were talking about that, is that a good marketing 387 00:28:40.510 --> 00:28:46.480 operations individual or team lead also ought to have a really unbiased 388 00:28:46.480 --> 00:28:50.670 perspective, right? Maybe they add some neutrality to your conversation. 389 00:28:50.670 --> 00:28:54.230 Whereas you know, instead of looking at everything as though it's perfect and 390 00:28:54.230 --> 00:28:59.130 shiny and exactly working exactly how it should. Marketing operations can 391 00:28:59.130 --> 00:29:04.230 shed the accuracy light on that, right and help determine what's right or 392 00:29:04.230 --> 00:29:07.950 what's wrong. In fact, I don't know if I should say this on the podcast, but 393 00:29:07.950 --> 00:29:12.440 I'm going to like, we're going into this executive meeting with a couple of 394 00:29:12.440 --> 00:29:15.460 things that haven't gone perfect. Like there are some things that aren't 395 00:29:15.470 --> 00:29:19.840 polished, they're not great and we're going in about those relatively 396 00:29:19.840 --> 00:29:23.550 blatantly. It's certainly not a doomsday issue, but I think we're going 397 00:29:23.550 --> 00:29:28.000 in there trying to be honest and say here's where we just killed it and 398 00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:32.410 here's a couple things where we clearly didn't do what we needed to do. So I 399 00:29:32.420 --> 00:29:36.870 appreciate that balanced perspective and like being held accountable and and 400 00:29:36.870 --> 00:29:41.480 looking at things the right way. Just not the way that makes us look good. I 401 00:29:41.480 --> 00:29:46.130 do like how marketing ops mindset is a little bit more data heavy, Right? It's 402 00:29:46.130 --> 00:29:50.990 like marketing is the balance between the art and the science. I had one way 403 00:29:50.990 --> 00:29:53.650 I'm gonna, I'm gonna go towards the art side because I think it's in the 404 00:29:53.650 --> 00:29:57.940 creative that winds, But ultimately I like to have it all informed by good 405 00:29:57.940 --> 00:30:02.160 data. And it's nice to have that other other person that pokes holes in your 406 00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:05.550 art and your thinking and your project. Especially your projections and how 407 00:30:05.550 --> 00:30:10.660 successful you think something might be right. A good personality to have on 408 00:30:10.660 --> 00:30:14.740 the team. Yeah. You and I are speaking the same language on that one. So is 409 00:30:14.740 --> 00:30:19.180 there anything else our audience should know about hiring that person? Maybe if 410 00:30:19.180 --> 00:30:23.220 you're hiring that first person, where would you find that person? What level 411 00:30:23.220 --> 00:30:26.340 would you hire? Are you looking for a marketing ops director as a first hire 412 00:30:26.340 --> 00:30:31.930 or a marketing ops specialist? Yeah. So what's it like? Think about, think 413 00:30:31.930 --> 00:30:35.470 about what a marketing ops specialist is. Right. Do you have enough 414 00:30:35.470 --> 00:30:39.340 experience that? Are you there interning or do you have enough 415 00:30:39.340 --> 00:30:43.170 experience that you can that you can actually contribute? So certainly 416 00:30:43.170 --> 00:30:47.190 that's a circumstantial one damn. Like if you've got all the budget in the 417 00:30:47.190 --> 00:30:51.840 world and all the flexibility, then go hire the most seasoned person you can 418 00:30:51.840 --> 00:30:57.710 find. For me, I'm a huge user of linked in. And so of course I posted the role 419 00:30:57.710 --> 00:31:04.890 and um, and you know, had had people applying to it and I also went out and 420 00:31:04.890 --> 00:31:09.560 I found people that I that I liked and thought could be good. And I really 421 00:31:09.560 --> 00:31:14.890 tapped my network to see who would be the most valuable asset in the 422 00:31:14.890 --> 00:31:18.650 organization or in the, in the community. You know, I think one of the 423 00:31:18.650 --> 00:31:22.190 things Covid was kind of striking up and when we made this current or excuse 424 00:31:22.190 --> 00:31:26.840 me, it was, it was kind of in the middle of it when we made the higher 425 00:31:26.840 --> 00:31:30.990 here at motor velocity. What I would say you do is you think about your 426 00:31:30.990 --> 00:31:36.430 circumstances and then find the person who has the experience to fill that out. 427 00:31:36.440 --> 00:31:39.750 Do you want to be a marcato shop? Do you want to be a hubspot shop? Is your 428 00:31:39.750 --> 00:31:44.190 sales office counterpart strong? What's your executive team is feeling towards 429 00:31:44.200 --> 00:31:48.620 or understanding of marketing operations? I think there's a lot that 430 00:31:48.620 --> 00:31:52.170 goes into it. You're probably not getting what you need if someone has 431 00:31:52.170 --> 00:31:57.470 1-2 years of total experience, right? Like they need more depth than that if 432 00:31:57.470 --> 00:32:02.680 they're going to be your operations leader. Um And and so again, that's 433 00:32:02.680 --> 00:32:06.590 probably a pretty soft answer there, but I would recommend you really think 434 00:32:06.590 --> 00:32:10.560 about what your circumstances allow. Absolutely. Well lets me know that I 435 00:32:10.560 --> 00:32:14.320 probably don't want to intern setting up my hope spot account. Probably 436 00:32:14.330 --> 00:32:18.210 somebody with 4 to 5 years experience at least. Right, Who was maybe done it 437 00:32:18.220 --> 00:32:22.550 at least once. You might not be a good place, a bad place to start spending on 438 00:32:22.550 --> 00:32:26.620 your budget. Right. Of course. Exactly. The budget, the more better you can 439 00:32:26.620 --> 00:32:32.350 hire. One thing that I've noticed again on linked in the operations community 440 00:32:32.360 --> 00:32:38.170 is getting louder and bigger. There's um, there's groups on, on linkedin 441 00:32:38.170 --> 00:32:41.540 where you see them pretty consistently talking about what they're up against 442 00:32:41.540 --> 00:32:46.450 and um, they're, I think they're connecting more and, um, communicating 443 00:32:46.450 --> 00:32:50.590 jobs to each other. And so it's definitely becoming more of a tight 444 00:32:50.590 --> 00:32:55.990 knit community as the, as the profession matures like this didn't 445 00:32:55.990 --> 00:33:00.860 exist a decade ago, right? Like this wasn't a thing in this format. And so 446 00:33:00.870 --> 00:33:06.260 as, as the profession has a longer tenure as there's more senior leaders 447 00:33:06.260 --> 00:33:11.450 in the role, the communities are formalizing and if I were, if I were 448 00:33:11.450 --> 00:33:15.600 making a higher like this, I would want to be involved and listening to those 449 00:33:15.600 --> 00:33:20.360 communities and making sure that whoever I was bringing on was, you know, 450 00:33:20.370 --> 00:33:24.120 well respected within those groups. Trying to think of like if I were 451 00:33:24.120 --> 00:33:28.010 hiring a marketing person, I'd probably do this would be to be growth. But even 452 00:33:28.010 --> 00:33:30.910 if I didn't have a marketing facing organization like Sweet fish, I'd 453 00:33:30.910 --> 00:33:33.670 probably start my own marketing podcast and just interviewed them all and then 454 00:33:33.670 --> 00:33:38.210 ask you want a job? All right. Do you want to do you want to work here? 455 00:33:38.230 --> 00:33:43.840 Exactly? How is your current job? It's a good not so good. It's not good 456 00:33:43.840 --> 00:33:50.860 enough man. Almost like pre interviews. Right. Yeah. I like the way you think I 457 00:33:50.860 --> 00:33:55.190 like the way you think we kind of use the podcast for us. It's a way to kind 458 00:33:55.190 --> 00:33:59.010 of get to know anybody and everybody and that's how we roll. Yeah, we all we 459 00:33:59.010 --> 00:34:02.890 all like to be heard. So is there anything else the audience should know 460 00:34:02.900 --> 00:34:07.290 about hiring a marketing Ops person early that you think would be helpful? 461 00:34:07.300 --> 00:34:11.940 Um I the only thing that I would say is to add a little bit of counterbalance, 462 00:34:11.949 --> 00:34:16.429 meaning I've seen that work successfully and I know the value of 463 00:34:16.429 --> 00:34:21.350 that, your organization's needs will be different. Maybe you don't have a brand 464 00:34:21.350 --> 00:34:27.489 established at all and or maybe you don't have a single ounce of content. 465 00:34:27.500 --> 00:34:31.630 Right? If you bring on a marketing Ops person and you don't have any ads to 466 00:34:31.630 --> 00:34:37.690 run or any content to promote or any social presence, then the marketing ops 467 00:34:37.690 --> 00:34:43.380 person can't operate an empty pipeline. Right? So you should think about your 468 00:34:43.380 --> 00:34:48.120 skill set. I'm a very demand focused individual. And so when I get into an 469 00:34:48.120 --> 00:34:53.159 organization, I immediately think, how can I fill these pipes? If you don't 470 00:34:53.159 --> 00:34:57.139 have full pipes, then the marketing ops person will be twiddling their thumbs 471 00:34:57.139 --> 00:35:01.860 for a while. And so when we say they are the first person, we maybe we mean 472 00:35:01.860 --> 00:35:05.810 there the second or the third person, right? But if you're hiring a marketing, 473 00:35:05.820 --> 00:35:11.340 if your if your marketing operations role Is 30 headcount in, you're making 474 00:35:11.340 --> 00:35:16.160 the wrong choice. So not the first person, but one of the first people, 475 00:35:16.170 --> 00:35:19.760 you won't hire the mansion or a really good content marketer first or 476 00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:24.190 something like that. You got it on top of already having a q earlier good 477 00:35:24.190 --> 00:35:27.330 sales cycle and that's going, you have product market fit and you're scaling 478 00:35:27.330 --> 00:35:32.180 now. Exactly. You got it, yep, that's a good clarification. So I had that in my 479 00:35:32.180 --> 00:35:35.470 head, but I'm like, I'm going to the audience knows now. Yeah, absolutely 480 00:35:35.940 --> 00:35:40.300 Logan, thank you so much for joining me on the show today, where can people go 481 00:35:40.300 --> 00:35:46.630 to learn more about you and metadata? Sorry, not metadata, motive velocity, 482 00:35:46.640 --> 00:35:51.770 metadata sounds like a nice company too. So I'm huge on spending time on 483 00:35:51.770 --> 00:35:56.320 linkedin, I love spending that time there, I'm really easy to find under 484 00:35:56.320 --> 00:36:00.740 Logan. Mallory motive. Ah City is a wonderful company. We focus on making 485 00:36:00.740 --> 00:36:05.610 people happier at work, we focus on peer to peer recognition and helping 486 00:36:05.620 --> 00:36:10.220 managers be better leaders. If you're trying to make your culture great or if 487 00:36:10.220 --> 00:36:14.520 you're trying to figure out how to connect your teams in a post Covid 488 00:36:14.520 --> 00:36:18.090 world where they're not in the office every day, spend a couple minutes with 489 00:36:18.090 --> 00:36:22.580 us and we'll show you some great solutions and it's motive. Ah city dot 490 00:36:22.580 --> 00:36:26.700 com but again, find find me on linkedin and reach out and I'll get you in the 491 00:36:26.700 --> 00:36:30.700 right place. Fantastic. Again, thanks for joining me on GDP growth. Thanks 492 00:36:30.700 --> 00:36:31.550 dan, appreciate you 493 00:36:34.030 --> 00:36:38.190 at Sweet Fish. We're on a mission to create the most helpful content on the 494 00:36:38.190 --> 00:36:42.770 internet for every job function and industry on the planet for the B two B 495 00:36:42.770 --> 00:36:46.810 marketing industry. This show is how we're executing on that mission. If you 496 00:36:46.810 --> 00:36:50.280 know a marketing leader, that would be an awesome guest for this podcast. 497 00:36:50.290 --> 00:36:53.830 Shoot me a text message. Don't call me because I don't answer unknown numbers, 498 00:36:53.840 --> 00:37:00.340 but text me at 4074 and I know 33 to 8. Just shoot me their name may be a link 499 00:37:00.340 --> 00:37:04.280 to their linkedin profile and I'd love to check them out to see if we can get 500 00:37:04.290 --> 00:37:10.150 them on the show. Excite Yeah.