5 Challenges Facing Creative Teams with Russ Somers

WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:13.279 Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is be to be growth. 2 00:00:18.199 --> 00:00:22.399 Welcome into be to be growth. Friends, today I'm joined by a fellow 3 00:00:22.559 --> 00:00:26.600 Austinite, Russ Summers. He is the CMO at life, though, Russ, 4 00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:29.280 welcome to be, to be growth, and thank you so much. 5 00:00:29.320 --> 00:00:33.159 Awesome to be here. Love the show. So, Russ, you have 6 00:00:33.479 --> 00:00:37.600 a track record, a history maybe, I would say, working with creative 7 00:00:37.600 --> 00:00:40.880 teams, and today we want to get into a lot of the man the 8 00:00:40.920 --> 00:00:45.960 conundrums, right, the things that get in the way sometimes, the problems 9 00:00:45.960 --> 00:00:50.759 we face as creative teams. But give me some background as to the vantage 10 00:00:50.759 --> 00:00:54.119 point you have in the work you've done with creative teams. Sure, I 11 00:00:54.159 --> 00:00:58.359 mean my perspective, and I've shared with this with you before. Marketers, 12 00:00:58.439 --> 00:01:00.359 there's two parts to it. There's math and magic, right, yeah, 13 00:01:00.399 --> 00:01:04.439 there's the quantitative part, the data, and that's where I grew up. 14 00:01:04.439 --> 00:01:10.040 I was the classic marketer, Not Classic Marketer who, for the first five 15 00:01:10.120 --> 00:01:14.319 years of my career I opened excel, I opened spss, as all kinds 16 00:01:14.359 --> 00:01:19.319 of statistical software. I never opened powerpoint, I never opened illustrator. And 17 00:01:19.359 --> 00:01:22.079 then when I moved into startups, one of the first ones I joined was 18 00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:26.599 called in Poto. We were in the video commerce space and we realize that, 19 00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:30.200 yes, we had great technology to put on our customers sites to make 20 00:01:30.280 --> 00:01:34.920 video shoppable, but they needed content, and so we moved into creating content 21 00:01:34.079 --> 00:01:38.799 and there I started really what I would call a love affair with the creative 22 00:01:38.840 --> 00:01:44.000 side of marketing, the magic as opposed to the math. They both matter, 23 00:01:44.359 --> 00:01:46.920 but when I found it in Voto, and what I found in subsequent 24 00:01:47.040 --> 00:01:53.159 roles is the real power of marketing is in the creative and that's, frankly, 25 00:01:53.200 --> 00:01:55.799 what led me to life, though, because we serve creative teams, 26 00:01:55.799 --> 00:01:59.280 we help them do better, more impactful work. So the opportunity to work 27 00:01:59.319 --> 00:02:04.200 full time with that community was just absolutely not something I could pass up with 28 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:07.480 that unique vantage. But I love it that you started on nor of the 29 00:02:07.560 --> 00:02:10.800 math side. I think we need marketers that have per view into both, 30 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:16.000 if it adds such a value to the teams that were on but now being 31 00:02:16.039 --> 00:02:20.599 on the the more creative side of things and working with these teams. What 32 00:02:20.719 --> 00:02:23.479 are some specific challenges, because this is where we want to go today. 33 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:29.319 What are those key challenges that you see sort of across the board when it 34 00:02:29.319 --> 00:02:34.039 comes to creative teams and the things they're facing. been what if, after 35 00:02:34.080 --> 00:02:38.240 this conversation, you asked me how did the show go for you and I 36 00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:44.159 was silent? Wouldn't that be a little weird, very awkward? It would 37 00:02:44.199 --> 00:02:49.840 be super awkward. But this is the reality of the creative team. Fifty 38 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:57.240 five percent of creative content teams rarely or never get quantitative feedback. They do 39 00:02:57.319 --> 00:02:59.919 all this work, they're creating. If you work for Papa John's, you're 40 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:02.360 creating a pizza flyer campaign. If you work in the digital space, you're 41 00:03:02.439 --> 00:03:07.639 creating a landing page in a website. But what if you never got a 42 00:03:07.800 --> 00:03:12.759 peep about how that information work for your stakeholders, who had all kinds of 43 00:03:12.759 --> 00:03:15.919 opinions? Let's make it blue, let's put it over here. But then 44 00:03:15.960 --> 00:03:19.159 when you actually go, what results are we getting? You get no data. 45 00:03:19.240 --> 00:03:23.680 So half of them almost get no data. Only seventeen percent get it 46 00:03:23.800 --> 00:03:29.560 always or often. And so in this in this world where now the workflow 47 00:03:29.639 --> 00:03:31.840 is change, we're now all remote, lots of things and change in our 48 00:03:31.879 --> 00:03:37.000 work environment. If you don't have that feedback loop telling you that your creative 49 00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:39.199 performed well, you're kind of dead in the water in terms of knowing your 50 00:03:39.240 --> 00:03:45.919 value to the organization, while seventeen percent like getting feedback, that is a 51 00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:50.840 low, low number. I mean, how are you supposed to do great 52 00:03:50.919 --> 00:03:53.400 work if you don't even know if you hit the mark right? Well, 53 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:57.159 this comes down. It's really interesting you say that, because this comes down 54 00:03:57.159 --> 00:04:00.919 to your definition of great work, and all too often creative work is based 55 00:04:01.080 --> 00:04:06.280 solely on subjective criteria. I like it, I love it, it looks 56 00:04:06.280 --> 00:04:14.199 fantastic. All of those things are flattering, but they're not useful feedback when 57 00:04:14.199 --> 00:04:16.920 you can actually say we're putting this has had out in the wild and in 58 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:23.120 the creative brief you told us what results was expect we're expected. That's where 59 00:04:23.120 --> 00:04:27.800 the briefing process is where where you need to start saying what are the what 60 00:04:27.879 --> 00:04:31.240 are the intended outcomes? We think this will increase website traffic by twenty percent 61 00:04:31.319 --> 00:04:36.920 over the next year. We think this pizza flyer campaign will generate a five 62 00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:43.040 percent response rate. Whatever it might be, you actually should be specifying that 63 00:04:43.160 --> 00:04:46.360 up front as your work with their creative team, because creatives are problem solvers. 64 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:50.519 You tell them what objective you're trying to hit, they will find ways 65 00:04:50.600 --> 00:04:54.160 to hit it. But if they're kept in the dark, they can't help 66 00:04:54.199 --> 00:04:57.240 with that. And then we're reduced to can you make it blue? Can 67 00:04:57.279 --> 00:05:00.120 you make it pretty, can you make it pop? Yeah, basically viewed 68 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:04.600 as output machines. Right, exactly. And what happens with anything else that 69 00:05:04.720 --> 00:05:10.000 is viewed as an output machine in business? It becomes a cost center, 70 00:05:10.120 --> 00:05:14.600 not a profit center. And you say we need to process invoices, but 71 00:05:14.680 --> 00:05:18.639 it doesn't drive business when we close invoices. Well then you're going to offshore 72 00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:23.639 that process and do it as cheaply as you can. And the problem with 73 00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:28.040 doing that with marketing is sence. The magic component is what really makes it 74 00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:30.720 work. You can't commodify the magic. You can't just, you know, 75 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:34.959 send that all offshore or do it with fiber or whatever, right. And 76 00:05:35.240 --> 00:05:43.519 so you're actually hurting marketing performance paradoxically, by focusing only on the performance metrics 77 00:05:43.560 --> 00:05:48.759 and not understand in the impact of the creative while you brought up creative briefs 78 00:05:48.800 --> 00:05:54.920 and I think a lot of companies we go we have a creative brief and 79 00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:59.399 maybe not so informative, maybe not quite hitting the mark. What do you 80 00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:02.759 see there when it comes to the structure of creative reason some of the pain 81 00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:06.480 points around it. Well, we just did a deep dive on this with 82 00:06:06.519 --> 00:06:11.680 a company out of Australia called better briefs, and this is their whole business 83 00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:15.759 that work very closely with creative briefs. I don't remember the exact statistic, 84 00:06:15.839 --> 00:06:20.600 but it was right around I think sixty to seventy percent of marketers said that 85 00:06:20.600 --> 00:06:26.000 their creative briefs were comprehensive and covered everything that was needed, and maybe twenty 86 00:06:26.040 --> 00:06:30.920 to thirty percent of creative teams agreed. So there's a big disconnect there in 87 00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:36.839 what even should be in that creative brief. And this is where, again, 88 00:06:36.839 --> 00:06:42.560 thinking of the two teams is two separate teams hurts us because we don't 89 00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:46.199 sit together physically, your metaphorically, now that we're virtual, right, we 90 00:06:46.240 --> 00:06:51.120 don't spend that time together collaborating to understand what the desired outcome is. so 91 00:06:51.199 --> 00:06:55.199 you decide what the outcome of the campaign is and then you call in the 92 00:06:55.240 --> 00:06:59.000 creative team. Well, how about you call them in earlier? How about 93 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:03.240 there in the metrics reviews so they understand the impact? I mean crazy thoughts, 94 00:07:03.240 --> 00:07:08.720 but you can't influence the outcome when you don't have visibility to the outcome, 95 00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:14.319 and that's where to I think the creative team can set themselves apart by 96 00:07:14.439 --> 00:07:19.240 using their own agency to know more of the business outside of just their creative 97 00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:23.720 department, because we lock ourselves and I put myself here too, because I'm 98 00:07:23.759 --> 00:07:29.040 a very creative by nature, so it's not in my normal tendency to lean 99 00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:31.240 heavy on the math side. Where you started rusts where I got it. 100 00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:36.319 I got around myself out in a sense, but we can. We have 101 00:07:36.439 --> 00:07:41.959 agency there to learn and lean in and then the business should be looking over 102 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:44.480 at the creative department going hey, we should get them into more of these 103 00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:47.959 these meetings, in these crucial conversations. Right well, and that some of 104 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:53.279 the creative directors I've worked with at a couple different companies have really shaped my 105 00:07:53.319 --> 00:07:58.920 thinking. They're in being very forward and pushing themselves into that process and asking 106 00:07:59.120 --> 00:08:03.040 questions, and it's really interesting when that happens. been to watch a medium 107 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:09.399 switch from why is the creative director here? We're talking about go to market 108 00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:15.199 strategy, and then this very quiet person, because creatives are problem solvers by 109 00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:18.680 nature, can toss out something that nobody had even thought of. That turns 110 00:08:18.680 --> 00:08:24.319 out to be a really a real genius solution to a problem under discussion. 111 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:30.480 So bringing those teams together I frankly have never regretted. It's always it makes 112 00:08:30.519 --> 00:08:33.279 me super happy when you see that start to happen. You know, another 113 00:08:33.639 --> 00:08:37.960 pain point I know a lot of creative teams feel is there's just too many 114 00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:41.919 stakeholders. We have the thing, we got to do push through, but 115 00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:46.519 there's so many people with eyes on the project. Was Voice into the thing? 116 00:08:48.399 --> 00:08:50.679 How do you experience that as an issue? What are you hearing as 117 00:08:50.679 --> 00:08:54.000 well as teams and going while there's just so many stakeholders and we got it. 118 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:58.039 We got to boil down the voices we're hearing from. Well, I 119 00:08:58.039 --> 00:09:01.519 mean there's two pieces to that right. One is you have far too many 120 00:09:01.639 --> 00:09:07.759 stakeholders. The other is you can have a lot of stakeholders if you have 121 00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:13.000 sort of a construct for who is a decider and who is an input giver 122 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:16.639 and Opinion Giver and in what order those things want to happen, because usually 123 00:09:16.679 --> 00:09:22.039 what happens when stake colder feedback goes awry is, let's say I've got twenty 124 00:09:22.039 --> 00:09:26.320 five stakeholders and twenty four of them have been heard from and are good with 125 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:31.879 it and then at the last minute one swoops in and takes the role that 126 00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:35.519 I like to call project pigeon of swooping in and pooping on the whole thing. 127 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:39.600 Right, I like that. And then you're back to revisions. One 128 00:09:39.639 --> 00:09:43.639 of the things that we do, and working with teams, is we're able 129 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:48.159 to set up this sort of feedback processes and sequences so you get so you 130 00:09:48.200 --> 00:09:52.759 can get the feedback from the right people first and sequence when you ask for 131 00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:56.840 feedback. In the old world, and then you are not old enough to 132 00:09:56.879 --> 00:10:01.480 remember this, I would expect, it was very common in inhouse agencies for 133 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:07.120 the creative team to walk around with envelopes to get sign off on the work 134 00:10:07.159 --> 00:10:11.320 and you had on that envelope written the order of people you're going to get 135 00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:15.759 feedback from. Digital processes of kind of blown that up where we ask everybody 136 00:10:15.799 --> 00:10:18.080 for feedback all at once by default. But it doesn't have to be that 137 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:22.039 way. With the right tools you can structure it just as succinctly as at 138 00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:26.120 old school and yet also have all the benefits of you're moving as fast as 139 00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:31.200 you can at a digital world, which means that one of the metrics you 140 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:35.120 see impact on is number of rounds of review. Typically, what we see 141 00:10:35.159 --> 00:10:39.519 in the market is our customers typically have about three rounds of review. No, 142 00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:43.320 what was it? It was, I believe, thirty three percent of 143 00:10:43.360 --> 00:10:46.720 assets approved on the first round of review, which is super cool and that's 144 00:10:46.759 --> 00:10:50.559 a sign that you're doing it right. But not everybody is. And we'll 145 00:10:50.600 --> 00:10:54.879 get more into some of these solutions. And how do we move past just 146 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:58.600 the pain points here in a second and want to keep establishing because honestly, 147 00:10:58.639 --> 00:11:03.360 we could have a conversation that lasts will far too long, longer than a 148 00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:07.960 typical podcast episode, just around the problems we experience as creative teams. But 149 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:11.480 I'll hit on a couple more here before we get to any sort of solution 150 00:11:11.600 --> 00:11:15.120 or way forward. Another one, and you you touched on this a little 151 00:11:15.159 --> 00:11:18.120 earlier and I want to expand on it, is this idea of being a 152 00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:24.440 prophet center. We have to realize we are a prophet center. What is 153 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:31.120 that breakdown where so many creative teams operate from a different space, or even 154 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:37.279 teams as a whole going and they just cost it's a mindset shift. Right. 155 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:43.679 If you are fortunate, you have leadership in the organization that recognizes inherently 156 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:46.600 the value of creative work. Because we all watched the Super Bowl Camp Super 157 00:11:46.639 --> 00:11:52.519 Bowl ads, you know, a couple weeks ago, right, and nobody 158 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:58.240 talks about the quantitative aspect of those ads other than the coin base one where 159 00:11:58.279 --> 00:12:01.039 you ask how many scans were there and how long did the servers stay up? 160 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:05.399 But that's not not normal. Usually you talk about the creative concepts and 161 00:12:05.399 --> 00:12:11.120 which ones really stood out in which ones didn't. So it starts with leadership 162 00:12:11.159 --> 00:12:15.480 that understands the value of creatively standing out. But it also starts you raised 163 00:12:15.480 --> 00:12:20.240 a really good point on the agency of the creative teams. Are they walking 164 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:24.519 across the hall and having that conversation of what's it? What's the output this 165 00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:28.919 is going to generate and how do we know that we're successful? You think 166 00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:33.399 it's like less than twenty percent of CEO's have a background and marketing. So 167 00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:37.960 you have to do a lot of extra work from the marketing department, from 168 00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:41.759 the creative department, to continue to put yourself out there and go hey, 169 00:12:41.799 --> 00:12:46.519 this is how we drive profits and put it at the forefront of the team's 170 00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:50.080 mind early and often, and then from there. You know, then it 171 00:12:50.120 --> 00:12:52.399 becomes like, oh well, we love what the creative teams doing, we 172 00:12:52.519 --> 00:12:56.600 love what marketing is doing, the value that they add. But to assume 173 00:12:56.799 --> 00:13:01.799 that your your they're going to see the value add that assumption is is going 174 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:05.840 to get in the way and breaks down communication. It does all sorts of 175 00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:11.960 things, unintended consequences, I would say. Right. I think it absolutely 176 00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:16.440 does. You simply have to not assume that people are going to understand what 177 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:20.440 you're doing. And it's interesting how when other areas of marketing we've gotten kind 178 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:24.639 of used to it. Nobody shows up saying I know how to use Google, 179 00:13:24.759 --> 00:13:28.919 so I know everything about Seo. Right, you assume when you're SEO 180 00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:33.799 team meets with your leadership that they're going to need to educate. Let me 181 00:13:33.879 --> 00:13:37.919 explain the three branches of Seo and how things work etc. Creative leaders need 182 00:13:37.960 --> 00:13:43.480 to take on that same mantle of when they walk in, explaining here's the 183 00:13:43.559 --> 00:13:48.039 role of creative in a well run campaign and here's how you see the difference 184 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:52.960 in terms of campaign response. One more issue I want to hit on, 185 00:13:52.399 --> 00:14:01.039 and that is what that skill sets now are way more complex and my opinion, 186 00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:05.039 what's needed and so I know what you think on that one. I 187 00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:09.679 heard an audible. I yes on that one. But what are your thoughts 188 00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:15.080 there on the development of what's required? It's a really good question because we 189 00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:16.759 a lot of time and I'm glad you asked. A lot of times we 190 00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:22.080 talk about creative is though it is just a group of visual or graphic designers, 191 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:24.519 right, but you're right, at this point multi media is expected. 192 00:14:24.559 --> 00:14:28.159 You've got to have people with fluency and video, with people in fluency and 193 00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:33.919 audio for podcasts, people who understand the many different social media formats and what 194 00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:37.639 works and what doesn't, because what works on tech talk is not what works 195 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:41.840 on Linkedin, right, and so you need all these skill sets and that's 196 00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:48.399 a very that requires you to keep track of your team skill sets and know, 197 00:14:50.120 --> 00:14:52.799 yes, I've got twenty people and it looks like we have a lot 198 00:14:52.840 --> 00:14:56.679 of bandwidth, but I understand that I have only two video people that are 199 00:14:56.720 --> 00:15:01.639 skilled there and the next three big projects are video projects. So that's a 200 00:15:01.720 --> 00:15:05.840 huge issue. You know, and basically we keep hearing this from creative teams 201 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:11.039 that they're expected to work much faster than seventy three percent of them say this. 202 00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:18.320 But then also that they are needing to now increasingly outsource and work without 203 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:22.559 outsourced partners where they have specialized skill sets, because a big reason used to 204 00:15:22.600 --> 00:15:28.200 be you brought on additional contract creative resources to increase your bandwidth. Now typically 205 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:33.519 the driving reason is there is a skill set that we don't have that we 206 00:15:33.559 --> 00:15:39.240 need, whether that be video, audio something else. So I don't want 207 00:15:39.279 --> 00:15:41.000 to jump to solutions because I said I wouldn't do it, but I do 208 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:45.519 have a follow up question for you on this one, because you said track 209 00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:50.399 skill sets and there's a way that this naturally happens right where you're just in 210 00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:54.600 conversation and someone's passion comes out or a special project comes up and someone goes, 211 00:15:54.639 --> 00:15:58.480 Oh, I can do that video. But what are some ways rust 212 00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:04.720 that you have tracked or you see teams tracking people's skill sets beyond just the 213 00:16:04.759 --> 00:16:07.480 traditional like this is what you were hired for, kind of stick in your 214 00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:12.279 lane? Well, there's a couple pieces. One is obviously a good leader 215 00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:17.360 to an extent knows that information. They always know what what their people are 216 00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:22.120 capable of and they push their teams to increase their skills. So you know, 217 00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:26.080 a lot of times a good leader will not only be asking what are 218 00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:30.440 you good at, but what are you interested in and could be real good 219 00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:33.200 at? That we can upscale the skill that you can learn how come out 220 00:16:33.200 --> 00:16:37.200 and do our team or invest in development, which is huge. Then the 221 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:41.399 other thing is, frankly, you know, good tools do have that capability. 222 00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:47.960 We recently added to our workflow solution resource management to enable you to assign 223 00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:52.240 specialties and know who on your team can do what, understand their workload, 224 00:16:52.279 --> 00:16:56.360 etcetera, so you can sort of start to now see those bottlenecks and whatever 225 00:16:56.399 --> 00:17:00.480 you're using for project management tools, you should be thinking of it that way. 226 00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:04.400 How do I see if the demand that's coming down the pipeline is going 227 00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:11.519 to match the skills that my team has? Okay, so we're going to 228 00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:14.960 go back through this list basically, and now we'll just start to dive into 229 00:17:14.960 --> 00:17:18.279 some solutions that I love the one you just gave there, but I'll just 230 00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:22.680 kind of rehash for us some of these problems that we're wanting to address in 231 00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:26.960 this episode. One was this idea that often creative teams are viewed as output 232 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:30.759 machines. Second one is that these creative briefs aren't informative enough. Yet too 233 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:34.720 many stakeholders. We have to realize right as a creative team, that we 234 00:17:34.759 --> 00:17:38.799 are a profit center. Make sure people are aware of that and we're talking 235 00:17:38.839 --> 00:17:42.519 about it. And then that final one was a skill sets are far more 236 00:17:42.559 --> 00:17:49.039 complex. So when it comes to creative teams being viewed as an output machine, 237 00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:52.519 one thing you brought up to me was this idea of a project management 238 00:17:52.599 --> 00:18:00.279 triangle and would you walk me through some of that Russ and I think it 239 00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:03.119 would be informative as a potential mean, I know, not solution right, 240 00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:07.119 but part of the missing piece. Well, it's a tool, right. 241 00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:11.240 It's just a mental tool for thinking about things. And just you know, 242 00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:17.680 the project management Tryad is super simple. You've got cost, scope and time 243 00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:21.559 and those are the three legs of the triangle. In the middle is quality, 244 00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:25.680 because qualities what you're trying to produce. But almost any leg of that 245 00:18:25.799 --> 00:18:30.000 triangle can be shortened to some extent. If you've got twelve weeks to take 246 00:18:30.039 --> 00:18:33.920 something to market and something happens and you need to cut it to six weeks, 247 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:36.799 what do you do? You look at the other legs of the triangle. 248 00:18:36.839 --> 00:18:40.880 Well, can we reduce scope, because you can do something that takes 249 00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:44.039 twelve weeks to do, you can do about half of in six weeks, 250 00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:48.799 or do you increase budget right where you say gee, the time need just 251 00:18:48.839 --> 00:18:52.319 got compressed. Can we throw budget at it to bring more people on to 252 00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:56.720 get the work done quicker? And there's obviously not every project can be accelerated 253 00:18:56.759 --> 00:19:02.680 in that way, but the fundamental insight is you're always struggling to allocate resources 254 00:19:02.680 --> 00:19:07.480 wisely and if you understand that time, scope and cost can be traded off 255 00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:12.000 against each other, then you can have those intelligent conversations with your stakeholders to 256 00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:17.640 say, if you want to accelerate the timeline, here are the options. 257 00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:21.440 We may reduce SCOPE, we may increase budget, etc. But it helps 258 00:19:21.559 --> 00:19:25.559 put you, as a leader of that team, in the driver's seat to 259 00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:30.079 use that framework. Is there anything outside of that framework that you've found to 260 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:37.000 be particularly useful as it comes to trying to shift the narrative that we aren't 261 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:42.559 just this department that is consistently just an output machine? You know a couple 262 00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:48.000 of things. One, obviously, is to maintain metrics on your team so 263 00:19:48.039 --> 00:19:52.079 that people so that you can easily demonstrate here's how fully loaded we are, 264 00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:56.720 here's our average number of rounds of revisions, et Cetera, just sort of 265 00:19:56.720 --> 00:20:02.480 those basic throughput mess metrics. Yes, we're talking about efficiency, not results, 266 00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:04.039 but it's still gives you a window, so you've got a leg to 267 00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:10.559 stand on. And then the other that I've seen is this is super simple. 268 00:20:10.599 --> 00:20:15.200 Ask A ton of questions. We're used to the idea of creative projects 269 00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:19.759 start with the request. Creative project should start with a conversation and that conversation 270 00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:25.759 should be documented in the brief. So never accept this is what the business 271 00:20:25.839 --> 00:20:30.039 ask for. Ask why did the business ask for this? Can I talk 272 00:20:30.119 --> 00:20:33.000 to you? Tell me what outcomes you're trying to drive with this? Can 273 00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:37.119 we document those? When will mey? We measure against those? It truly 274 00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:41.039 is just a mindset shift, which leads perfectly into what we said. Creative 275 00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:45.799 briefs Aren't informative enough. If it's going to be a conversation over just a 276 00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:51.359 request, how are we navigating that? What is that practically look like? 277 00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:56.400 Is it another meeting, or is it just that request is far more detailed 278 00:20:56.480 --> 00:21:00.160 and gives opportunity for some some push and pull? What do you think? 279 00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:03.400 And around that rust? That's a really good question, because when you ask, 280 00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:06.640 is it another meeting. My own flat reflexive thing was none of us 281 00:21:06.759 --> 00:21:10.000 need more and meeting, and I almost I must. I don't know how 282 00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:14.000 I'll throw up in my mouth or something. Are Yeah, exactly, and 283 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:18.519 I get it. It might need to be for something complex. But really 284 00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:22.039 the big thing, and you know, the guys from better brief spoke about 285 00:21:22.039 --> 00:21:25.359 this far more eloquently than I can because they're experts in it, but a 286 00:21:25.400 --> 00:21:30.200 big piece of it is iteration. Then yeah, rather than you give me 287 00:21:30.279 --> 00:21:33.319 the brief and I take the brief as a given, whether it's facetoface, 288 00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:38.359 zoom to zoom, acing by email and slack, let's go back and forth 289 00:21:38.440 --> 00:21:42.680 and fine tune that brief till we both agree that it's got all the information 290 00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:48.480 we both need. I think that that iteration process, that back and forth, 291 00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:52.799 it changes the perception of being an output machine as well, because if 292 00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:55.680 you're just saying yes to requests and it's like yeah, well, anything that's 293 00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:59.720 requested of us, are creative team fulfills and just pushing it out and we're 294 00:21:59.799 --> 00:22:03.680 kind of in the silo over here and we do the thing that the communication 295 00:22:03.799 --> 00:22:07.599 back and forth that locks it in to where you better understand it and then 296 00:22:07.640 --> 00:22:12.079 also have the ability to push back some proves your value and your worth over 297 00:22:12.119 --> 00:22:15.440 time. So I love that. Anything else there on creative briefs that you 298 00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:21.279 would go hey, make sure you include this or value adds that we can 299 00:22:21.319 --> 00:22:26.079 we can have there to the creative brief process. Really the only thing I 300 00:22:26.119 --> 00:22:29.960 would say is take nothing for granted. Assume the people you're writing the brief 301 00:22:30.079 --> 00:22:34.079 for don't know anything about sort of the you know, sort of the implicit 302 00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:38.000 assumptions of the business, except etc. Just make them explicit, spell everything 303 00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:41.559 out that you can and then work through it in iteration to figure out what 304 00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:45.960 needs to be kept in what needs to go away. Typically in any editing 305 00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:48.720 process you end up with a longer document first in a shorter document second. 306 00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:52.440 So don't be afraid to put the information in there, whether you need it 307 00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:56.640 or not, and then iterate and whittle it down. The scope of things 308 00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:03.559 and determining what the true scope is. Right to know. I think that 309 00:23:03.640 --> 00:23:07.240 helps in the iteration process as well. Like if you're going back and forth, 310 00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:10.720 you're going to understand how involved is this about to be? But to 311 00:23:10.839 --> 00:23:15.880 know and watch out for for I think what we said is like scope creep. 312 00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:21.960 It's that the terminology that you use us. It is indeed. I 313 00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:25.480 love that idea and I think it's a huge part. It's like you start 314 00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:30.319 saying yes to everything and man, it gets complicated and you don't realize the 315 00:23:30.359 --> 00:23:33.279 scope of what you committed to. Well, and this, you know, 316 00:23:33.319 --> 00:23:36.359 for a classic example of SCOPE CREEP, and I'm glad you use that phrase 317 00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:38.519 because it reminds me of a classic example. You know, I might brief 318 00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:42.880 you in and say that what we need is a landing page and a content 319 00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:48.039 asset for people to download. Totally cool, that is what I need. 320 00:23:48.200 --> 00:23:52.279 What about social ads to promote that? What format will those ads be in? 321 00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:56.759 What channels will they be on? Will they be video ads, in 322 00:23:56.759 --> 00:24:00.519 which case there's also a need for video content, because that does to perform 323 00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:03.400 better in adds, as I'm sure you know. So that's a classic scope 324 00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:07.440 creep thing where we would assume, somebody might assume. The team will know 325 00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:11.640 this. Of course we're going to want social heads. No, don't assume. 326 00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:15.079 You probably better ensure that it's documented in there. Continuing down the list 327 00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:19.200 here, which we kind of mentioned, part of the solution around too many 328 00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:26.559 stakeholders, but I'd love to have you reiterate their what your thought processes around. 329 00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:29.000 Okay, there's a lot of people are who are going to have eyes 330 00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:33.119 on this, but who can actually who needs to sign off on this, 331 00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:37.440 who actually is a full on stakeholder versus someone that maybe just you know, 332 00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:41.680 is taken a look but isn't necessarily have to sign off. Any any practical 333 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:47.839 tips on sort of easing the burden that is too many stakeholders? There are 334 00:24:47.880 --> 00:24:52.039 two pieces to it. One is are familiar with the concept of racy? 335 00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:57.359 No, it's a project management concept. It's was responsible, who is accountable, 336 00:24:57.359 --> 00:25:02.920 who is consulted and who is informed. So take your stakeholders and think 337 00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:07.759 about where they fit in terms of giving the feedback, because you're going to 338 00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:11.920 have really only a couple of people that would be responsible right or accountable to 339 00:25:11.960 --> 00:25:15.839 the deliverables in there, and awful lot of other people are going to fall 340 00:25:15.880 --> 00:25:19.839 in the consulted or informed. So when you think about it, you've got 341 00:25:19.839 --> 00:25:26.960 just a few stakeholders likely that can have true veto power or true send it 342 00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:30.880 back and start overpower, and most of the there's are consulted are informed. 343 00:25:30.920 --> 00:25:37.160 So whatever process you use, make sure that you're using tools and or process 344 00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:42.279 that can keep those two categories of stakeholders separate. And then the other thing 345 00:25:42.519 --> 00:25:48.880 is the order, the sequence with which you get the feedback, because, 346 00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:53.000 again, blasted it to everybody at once usually has terrible results. You've got 347 00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:56.799 people you're going to want to have feedback early, and they're often the consulted 348 00:25:56.839 --> 00:26:02.440 and informed ones that just have good opinions to weigh in with, and you 349 00:26:02.480 --> 00:26:07.359 may want those earlier in the review cycle, and sort of the final approvers, 350 00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:10.240 you know, the ones that can veto towards the end. But you 351 00:26:10.279 --> 00:26:15.119 will also may want the final approvers and some of the initial rounds just in 352 00:26:15.160 --> 00:26:18.279 case you're so you don't waste time on a direction that they would say, 353 00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:22.200 this is not what we want at all. So think about the roles people 354 00:26:22.279 --> 00:26:26.079 play and the sequence in which you ask for feedback. Yeah, I think 355 00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:30.119 when you don't do that adequately, you end up with a lot of people 356 00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:36.640 that don't really can't articulate why they're frustrated because they don't really know. A 357 00:26:36.680 --> 00:26:38.960 lot of people saw had eyes on this, a few people had objections. 358 00:26:40.119 --> 00:26:44.799 We don't really have it really prioritize the voices in the room and so responsible, 359 00:26:44.839 --> 00:26:48.920 accountable, consulted informed. I love that. That idea there and I 360 00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:53.279 think there's a lot of just practical ways to walk that out. Okay, 361 00:26:53.880 --> 00:27:00.480 how do we begin to instill in our teams this idea that skill sets are 362 00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:04.200 far more complex? You mentioned that keeping track of it, but is there 363 00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:08.319 anything else we can do to like incentivize our teams to continue to learn and 364 00:27:08.359 --> 00:27:12.079 grow and add to their skill sets? What are what are ways that were 365 00:27:12.200 --> 00:27:15.359 dealing with the fact that that's just the new reality? Well, I mean 366 00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:19.079 a few things. What a good question. In a few things come to 367 00:27:19.160 --> 00:27:26.240 mind. They're one is for starters. You should always hire people that want 368 00:27:26.279 --> 00:27:29.279 to learn and grow right. So a piece that I'm not saying if your 369 00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:33.559 team isn't doesn't desire to learn and grow, you've hired the wrong team, 370 00:27:33.559 --> 00:27:36.519 but you may not of cared form it for them in the way that you 371 00:27:36.519 --> 00:27:38.559 should. Most people do want to learn and grow, so make sure they 372 00:27:38.599 --> 00:27:42.400 come in with that as a desire and that they come in knowing this is 373 00:27:42.440 --> 00:27:48.119 something the organization supports. Then, with the sort of flattening of the world, 374 00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:55.440 as we now have a whole lot more people to do perhaps less work, 375 00:27:55.440 --> 00:27:57.319 as we've all gone gone remote or more work. As we've all gone 376 00:27:57.359 --> 00:28:03.440 remote, most teams do report feeling considerably overwhelmed. That's where, again, 377 00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:08.240 potentially bringing in outside resources is something that teams sometimes have to do. But 378 00:28:08.359 --> 00:28:14.039 the first thing to do is simply know an inventory those skills. What is 379 00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:18.119 your team capable of? What are their specialties? You know, I think 380 00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:22.400 in terms of priorities, availability, workload and specialties when I'm thinking of teams, 381 00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:27.640 team loading priorities. What's important? Availability? Who may have time on 382 00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:33.039 deck? Work load are they? WHO's carrying more of the load versus last? 383 00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:37.960 And then specialties is where it gets super interested and you say yes, 384 00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:41.440 but only three people on the team can do this particular work. You've just 385 00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:45.559 got to have that inventory of your team in some fashion. I always love 386 00:28:45.640 --> 00:28:51.799 this, getting people's insight on on this question. But what would you rust 387 00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:56.359 be willing to outsource from a strategy perspective in marketing, and what would you 388 00:28:56.519 --> 00:29:00.039 it's like a Nope, this has to actually be someone on our team full 389 00:29:00.039 --> 00:29:03.759 time. What comes to mind when I ask you that? Oh my gosh, 390 00:29:03.799 --> 00:29:10.599 it is such a good question and the answer is a little situational. 391 00:29:10.720 --> 00:29:14.880 Absolutely, yeah, yeah, I love content to largely be created in house 392 00:29:14.960 --> 00:29:18.160 or heavily influenced in house, because we know our voice, we know who 393 00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:22.599 we are, we know that we do this because our customers were born to 394 00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:26.759 create right. We have those values inherent. So I like content to be 395 00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:33.000 in house or heavily influenced within house. Performance Marketing I tend to like in 396 00:29:33.079 --> 00:29:37.880 house as well. I know not everybody does things that I am comfortable. 397 00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:41.599 Outsourcing are often when you have sort of a temporal need, a short term 398 00:29:41.640 --> 00:29:45.920 need, and I was talking about this with a friend today with regards to 399 00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:49.279 product marketing. I think product marketing is a whole is a function that must 400 00:29:49.359 --> 00:29:55.039 be in house because you really need somebody to understand your customers in your world 401 00:29:55.119 --> 00:29:59.079 very deeply. But there are times when you're working on things like your strategic 402 00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:03.319 narrative, where an outside person is really, really strong and you need an 403 00:30:03.319 --> 00:30:07.079 outside person. You need that skill set, that high power skill set, 404 00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:11.920 for a short time. So those are times either you need a specific skill 405 00:30:11.960 --> 00:30:15.000 set for a short time or you just need more hands to do the work. 406 00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:19.359 Those are the two situations in which I'm most likely to say let's look 407 00:30:19.400 --> 00:30:23.200 outside. Love the opinion there. I love the differences and what people are 408 00:30:23.240 --> 00:30:27.480 willing to consider around it, and it's always intriguing to ask that question. 409 00:30:27.559 --> 00:30:32.599 So as we start to wrap up here, US around these these issues that 410 00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:34.640 we all faces creative teams, and then, you know, these solutions I 411 00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:38.599 love. I love some of what we got to digest there and just a 412 00:30:38.599 --> 00:30:42.160 practical insight you gave. But anything you want to add as we start to 413 00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:48.759 wrap this conversation up, just fundamentally think around the whole life cycle of your 414 00:30:48.759 --> 00:30:51.720 content. How do you produce it? How do you create it? How 415 00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:53.960 do you collaborate on it? How do you store and distribute? You've got 416 00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:57.599 to think through that and have a strategy at each place to make sure you're 417 00:30:57.640 --> 00:31:03.440 able to stay in touch with your stakeholders and get the input from them you 418 00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:07.759 need and get them the outputs they need from you. Fantastic. Well, 419 00:31:07.880 --> 00:31:11.000 Russ. For those that want to continue to follow you, stay connected what 420 00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:15.160 you guys are doing at life. Oh, give us a best ways to 421 00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:19.559 connect easy. Obviously, you can always follow us on social you know we're 422 00:31:19.640 --> 00:31:23.880 on all of the twitters, Linkedins, etcetera. Feel free to connect with 423 00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:27.880 me on Linkedin. I'm pretty active there. I'm just rust summers, Cemo 424 00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:32.079 of life, though, or anybody can always feel free to shoot me an 425 00:31:32.119 --> 00:31:36.759 email at rust summers at life otcom. And, of course, you know, 426 00:31:36.799 --> 00:31:38.680 feel free to visit us at life though, and sign up. Will 427 00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:44.000 send you good information and we won't waste your time with spam. Love it, 428 00:31:44.440 --> 00:31:47.799 rust, thank you for stopping by be to be growth today. Bennett's 429 00:31:47.839 --> 00:31:52.599 been great talking. Thank you so much, but we're always having conversations just 430 00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:56.160 like this that are going to help fuel your growth. They're gonna man, 431 00:31:56.240 --> 00:31:59.799 they're going to speak directly to some of the challenges that you're facing and hopefully 432 00:31:59.799 --> 00:32:02.440 bring some innovation to the work that you're doing. Never miss an episode. 433 00:32:02.480 --> 00:32:07.200 You can subscribe to the show right now on whatever platform you're listening to us 434 00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:10.880 on, and a connect with me on Linkedin as well. Search Benjie Block, 435 00:32:12.119 --> 00:32:15.960 talking about marketing, business and life over there. Keep doing work that 436 00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:30.519 matters. Will be back real soon with another episode. If you enjoyed a 437 00:32:30.559 --> 00:32:35.519 day show, hit subscribe for more marketing goodness. And if you really enjoyed 438 00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:37.799 the day show, take a second to rate and review the podcast on the 439 00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:42.920 platform you're listening to it on right now. 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