4 Things Marketing Ops Is Thinking but Won't Tell You, with Charlie & Christie

WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:16.480 Conversations from the front lines and marketing. This is be tob growth. This 2 00:00:16.600 --> 00:00:20.399 is B tob growth coming to you from just outside Austin, Texas. I'm 3 00:00:20.399 --> 00:00:25.120 your host, Benjie Block, and I am joined from Nashville, Tennessee, 4 00:00:25.120 --> 00:00:29.600 by our director of growth here at sweet fish, Dan Sanchez, and from 5 00:00:29.600 --> 00:00:33.880 Louisville, Kentucky, are creative content lead, Emily Brady. Welcome to be 6 00:00:33.960 --> 00:00:37.560 to be growth guys. Thanks, Benjie. Who Ready to go? Feel 7 00:00:37.600 --> 00:00:40.600 like you just have to hit that with intensity. Some reason, I don't 8 00:00:40.640 --> 00:00:44.640 know why, got a match. It got have lots of energy right from 9 00:00:44.679 --> 00:00:47.799 the top, and I think we all do. We're ready for today's topics. 10 00:00:47.840 --> 00:00:52.479 So, Dan, emily and I have already brought our topics this week, 11 00:00:52.479 --> 00:00:54.880 each of us. If you're new to this, maybe this is your 12 00:00:54.880 --> 00:00:59.039 first time listening. We're trying something for the last couple weeks where we just 13 00:00:59.119 --> 00:01:03.679 have these round table discussions what we're seeing in marketing. Today's your day, 14 00:01:03.719 --> 00:01:08.359 Dan. We were having a conversation on slack yesterday and around trends. So 15 00:01:08.359 --> 00:01:12.640 so bring us into this conversation. What are you thinking about here? Trends. 16 00:01:12.680 --> 00:01:17.439 There's so many marketing trends going on all the time. And then there's 17 00:01:17.439 --> 00:01:21.760 big trends, like tick Tock's big trend right and marketing world, and then 18 00:01:21.799 --> 00:01:25.280 there's micro trends. There is, of course, the little trends taking place 19 00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:29.439 in Tick Tock, but then there's like little trends were maybe a technology company 20 00:01:29.480 --> 00:01:34.280 makes something possible that wasn't possible before. For example, I found out that 21 00:01:34.319 --> 00:01:40.000 you could retarget people on Youtube with ads based on their search criteria, even 22 00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:42.319 if they never visited your website. That was really good for a while. 23 00:01:42.359 --> 00:01:46.920 Well, it became available on a march of some year and then I wrote 24 00:01:46.959 --> 00:01:49.519 it until it wasn't. It just wasn't profitable anymore. The little things like 25 00:01:49.560 --> 00:01:55.040 that happen all the time. Sometimes because a feature is just sometimes because habits 26 00:01:55.040 --> 00:02:00.159 of people change, demographics change, we're climate change, like just change is 27 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:04.640 haping taking place all the time right. So trends are happening all over and 28 00:02:04.680 --> 00:02:08.080 I've noticed that being early on some of these trends has massive benefits. It's 29 00:02:08.120 --> 00:02:13.199 like surfing, and I was as a conversation that Benjie and emily and I 30 00:02:13.240 --> 00:02:15.120 had yesterday and I was kind of comparing it to surfing. Right, if 31 00:02:15.120 --> 00:02:20.599 you you're sitting out there in the water and their swells coming behind you. 32 00:02:20.719 --> 00:02:24.319 But the timing is everything because you have to start paddling and onboard and get 33 00:02:24.360 --> 00:02:29.000 it just right, because if you're too early, than the rave crashes on 34 00:02:29.039 --> 00:02:31.759 top of you, but if you're too late, then you miss it and 35 00:02:31.840 --> 00:02:36.039 everybody else gets on it right, who timed it right, and rides it 36 00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:38.800 in and your you have to wait for the next one. So it's something 37 00:02:38.840 --> 00:02:40.960 that I see all the time. But timing it is quite hard, because 38 00:02:42.039 --> 00:02:45.759 yesterday I threw out an idea like hey, maybe this is something, and 39 00:02:45.879 --> 00:02:49.280 then I don't know if you guys were as enthusiastic as I was about about 40 00:02:49.360 --> 00:02:53.319 it, but it is an interesting conversation of how did time trends and how 41 00:02:53.360 --> 00:02:57.919 to how to get onto them right. So, Benji, like when I 42 00:02:57.919 --> 00:03:00.319 posted that idea yesterday, like how did that at you as far as like 43 00:03:00.520 --> 00:03:04.680 time, trying to time time a trend? What does it make you think 44 00:03:04.759 --> 00:03:07.240 of and what do you look for when you're when you're looking for things like 45 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:10.960 that? So another image comes to my mind, and the image that comes 46 00:03:10.960 --> 00:03:16.080 to my mind is when you see people jumping rope like an elementary school right 47 00:03:16.159 --> 00:03:20.919 and you have the person that's like waiting and they're like trying to figure out 48 00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:23.680 should I jump in? Should I wait? Should I jump in? Should 49 00:03:23.680 --> 00:03:29.879 I wait, and like that is marketing. It's like is this worth jumping 50 00:03:29.919 --> 00:03:36.199 into? Is this worth testing? Is this like what's our strategy around when 51 00:03:36.199 --> 00:03:39.039 we're going to go in? Or and we all respect these types of marketers 52 00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:43.840 as well, where it's like I'm hyper focused on the strategy I've laid out 53 00:03:43.879 --> 00:03:46.800 and I'm good at tuning out the noise, like there's all these waves I 54 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:53.639 could ride and I've chosen which ones I'm going to lock down and there will 55 00:03:53.680 --> 00:03:57.919 be strategy adjustment down the road, but for now, like tune out the 56 00:03:57.919 --> 00:04:02.599 noise. So I think that image comes to mind. I love marketers that 57 00:04:02.639 --> 00:04:05.000 can see into the future. In a sense, that's one of the things 58 00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:10.120 that I think makes a good marketer, is spotting trends. So you're totally 59 00:04:10.199 --> 00:04:13.240 right on that, like we need to pick the waves we want to ride. 60 00:04:13.400 --> 00:04:17.920 To me, it's more for each person. If you're thinking about your 61 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:24.199 marketing strategy, you've got to know you well enough in your company well enough 62 00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:29.839 to be like that's something we need to try lock in on and experiment with 63 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:32.519 us, or or jump fully, and I don't know, but that's that's 64 00:04:32.519 --> 00:04:35.360 where I think that the tension is right and where we can all bring our 65 00:04:35.360 --> 00:04:39.720 own perspectives. When you bring up a specific topic and go this is clearly 66 00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:43.360 a trend, right. You can point out trends and then you can go, 67 00:04:43.519 --> 00:04:45.560 is this one worth getting into it, and that's where ALD of fun 68 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:48.319 arguments happen. Funny I could think of trends we've already I've only been I've 69 00:04:48.360 --> 00:04:53.079 been a sweet fish for about two years and we've taken many swings. Some 70 00:04:53.120 --> 00:04:56.279 of them connected man. Some of them were awesome, like the Linkedin Evangelist 71 00:04:56.319 --> 00:05:00.600 Program who knew like we james kind of called it and then we execute against 72 00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:03.399 it ended up being really good. We also went hard on clubhouse for a 73 00:05:03.439 --> 00:05:09.680 month, and I mean like hard, total like that way fizzled out fast 74 00:05:09.759 --> 00:05:13.560 and honestly, was never good. We paddled try to get on it and 75 00:05:13.600 --> 00:05:16.319 then the way just ended. For a lot of baby marketers, that one 76 00:05:16.360 --> 00:05:19.879 didn't pan out. So these things come and go and you can try to 77 00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:23.399 catch him at it doesn't. It's is no guarantees in it. But if 78 00:05:23.399 --> 00:05:26.439 you cash that, the Linkedin evangelist program ended up being so good for us. 79 00:05:26.439 --> 00:05:30.279 In Two thousand and twenty one provided like the line share of new revenue 80 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:34.279 for sweetfish that I'm like, if we hadn't tried that, that would have 81 00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:38.319 been really bad. But we certainly took a lot of swings and missed two, 82 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:41.600 or we didn't catch it in time. I'd say one. What we're 83 00:05:41.800 --> 00:05:46.040 Emily's capitalizing on is tick tock for bdb right, because when we talked about 84 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:50.439 it originally, emily was like way back and like fall, I. October, 85 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:56.759 right, and by even then it was like maybe this becomes a thing. 86 00:05:56.839 --> 00:05:59.439 I swear it was like a swell moment where you could see this way. 87 00:05:59.439 --> 00:06:00.040 You like, I don't not sure if this is going to be a 88 00:06:00.079 --> 00:06:04.319 wave, but it might be, so you should do something about it, 89 00:06:04.360 --> 00:06:09.240 and you like freaking took to it like better than I could have ever done, 90 00:06:09.319 --> 00:06:12.639 to the point where I'd say, like, you were probably second after 91 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:15.680 maybe todd, but other than him. I'm like, I think emily was 92 00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:18.680 hitting a hard before everybody else was, for sure, and that's paying out 93 00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:23.360 now. So these things come and go. Yeah, I think I don't. 94 00:06:23.399 --> 00:06:25.879 I don't think I have that skill. Of you know, a marketer 95 00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:30.079 who sees into the future, but I am a big fan of testing and 96 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:34.680 experimenting within reason, because it like, like Dan said, the evangelist program 97 00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:40.240 we jumped on that really early. I feel like I this yere hot topic 98 00:06:40.279 --> 00:06:43.600 is employe advocacy or you know, towards the end of last year, but 99 00:06:43.639 --> 00:06:46.240 we got on it last summer and we were at the first either, you 100 00:06:46.279 --> 00:06:48.920 know, Gong and drift had been doing it for a while, and so 101 00:06:49.000 --> 00:06:53.439 we looked at that and said, okay, I think this is beneficial and 102 00:06:53.639 --> 00:06:57.959 got it started and it's been really beneficial for us and profitable for us, 103 00:06:57.959 --> 00:07:00.439 and so that was a wise move. And I think tick tock is sort 104 00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:03.800 of the same way, where Dan was like you should consider getting on tick 105 00:07:03.839 --> 00:07:05.759 tock and I was like I don't want to get out tick tock, like 106 00:07:05.959 --> 00:07:10.959 I'm not I don't do video. And then todd was, I think, 107 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:15.240 the first one on there that I'm aware of any way, or like Stephen 108 00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:17.319 Pope and and I just saw what they were doing and it was kind of 109 00:07:17.319 --> 00:07:20.959 tough, like to know what to do when no one else is doing it. 110 00:07:21.079 --> 00:07:25.360 But that's kind of the beauty of it too, in the benefit of 111 00:07:25.360 --> 00:07:28.439 it too. It's like you're you're paving the way. Other people are looking 112 00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:30.120 at you to see how to do it, and so I think I got 113 00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:34.279 lucky in that regard and that I just I started creating content there and other 114 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:38.399 people now are like, okay, what are you doing right and how can 115 00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:42.199 I do that? Because there are a ton of people who have jumped on 116 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:46.040 Tick Tock, be to be marketers, be to be sales who have jumped 117 00:07:46.040 --> 00:07:48.959 on in the last few months because they see that it's a long play and 118 00:07:49.720 --> 00:07:54.480 not just it's not another clubhouse. I don't think so. I think it's 119 00:07:54.480 --> 00:08:00.720 interesting too, because in this discussion, testing is like it's kind of depends 120 00:08:00.759 --> 00:08:05.680 on time, commitment, right, and what kind of if it's content, 121 00:08:05.720 --> 00:08:07.959 like, for instance, for Tick Tock, the bars pretty low, like 122 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:11.120 if it hadn't have succeeded, all right, we just move on, like 123 00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:15.160 of course you're going to test it because, well, you had to be 124 00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:18.639 convinced, but once you were in, like it's worth testing, because tick 125 00:08:18.680 --> 00:08:24.720 tock has some staying power. We see past social media platforms and like how 126 00:08:24.759 --> 00:08:28.120 they've performed and how long they've been around. So like we so we see 127 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:31.360 something coming with Tick Tock in the amount of use. It's worth testing different 128 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:35.039 things on there, and the bars pretty low as far as time, commitment 129 00:08:35.399 --> 00:08:39.919 cost. So that, to me, becomes part of it. Is when 130 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:45.919 we're looking for waves to ride, where can we run tests where we could 131 00:08:45.960 --> 00:08:52.720 see a ton or reward versus, like, where are people doing things that, 132 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:56.759 I mean, maybe we just shouldn't be testing because it's going to cost 133 00:08:56.840 --> 00:09:01.080 us a lot in some some way, and that becomes a big differentiator. 134 00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:03.200 To me. I think you're totally right. In the beginning you were like 135 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:07.600 too many people jumping rope, and then there's like tons of jumper rope games 136 00:09:07.679 --> 00:09:11.000 going on over where. So not only you not executing, but you're like 137 00:09:11.320 --> 00:09:13.279 wondering whether I should jump into that trend or these dozens other trends that are 138 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:18.200 going on or things that you in some most people aren't even aware like where 139 00:09:18.200 --> 00:09:20.440 the trend is at. To them it seems like it's early, but actually 140 00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:24.279 you're actually on the tail end and you just hadn't heard about it because you 141 00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:26.840 weren't paying attention for three years. Happens a lot. So which one is 142 00:09:26.879 --> 00:09:31.440 to jump into? I will say the biggest problem most marketers face specifically be 143 00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:35.480 to be marketers, because we surveyed them. Is Distraction. There's way too 144 00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:37.480 much going on, way too many initiatives. So I think you're right bending 145 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:43.080 that you kind of have to have your two, maybe three channels that are 146 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:46.519 working and you you're executing and they're pretty much they're well documented. You have 147 00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:52.279 a process, it's pretty well delegated, like it's running and it's working well. 148 00:09:52.320 --> 00:09:54.919 To be able to even afford the time and the energy to be able 149 00:09:54.960 --> 00:10:00.240 to chase the little microtrends, you have to have that first. But then 150 00:10:00.279 --> 00:10:03.919 being systematic. I think I like Jim Collins, talks about like shooting bullets 151 00:10:03.919 --> 00:10:07.399 before cannonballs. In too many company shoot cannon balls. Maybe it's because they're 152 00:10:07.399 --> 00:10:11.519 afraid of looking bad. If you're a big company, you have a brand 153 00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:13.320 image to recognize and you're like, oh, that's not on brand, even 154 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:18.279 though it's tick tock and it's it's honestly not supposed to look on brand. 155 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:20.440 Right. It's like if you're if you're a big corporate brand and you're on 156 00:10:20.440 --> 00:10:24.840 Tick Tock, you probably need to figure out how to morphear corporate brand in 157 00:10:24.919 --> 00:10:30.200 order to fit the style of Tick Tock. More than make your vertical videos 158 00:10:30.200 --> 00:10:33.159 branded like your corporate brand. Right, yeah, don't bring your shiny marketing 159 00:10:33.159 --> 00:10:37.320 to tick Tock. That's not going to work right. So I think too 160 00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:41.879 many big brands shoot big cannon balls and probably just need a task and individual 161 00:10:41.919 --> 00:10:46.240 what experimenting, maybe without the company brand, to gain some experience and some 162 00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:48.879 expertise and it before rolling it out across the company, right, or just 163 00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:54.559 hiring somebody that knows what they're doing. Like we're fine labs hired todd. 164 00:10:54.559 --> 00:10:56.360 He was a video guy that knew what he was doing, really successful on 165 00:10:56.399 --> 00:11:00.240 Youtube. The hired him and now he's killing tick tock. So you can 166 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:03.399 hire people that know that hire or already have influence to. That's a good 167 00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:07.320 way to get on. I think we're seeing a lot of this in marketing, 168 00:11:07.320 --> 00:11:13.759 where our time is speeding up in a good way between idea and execution. 169 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:18.039 So, like even the idea of sprints within be to be like Texass 170 00:11:18.200 --> 00:11:22.200 right, where it's like okay, two weeks and we can put something out. 171 00:11:22.200 --> 00:11:24.120 And now, granted, you wish you could do it immediately, but 172 00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:28.399 I think that type of like getting in that mode where, like things are 173 00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:33.840 being constantly iterated on and updated and improved has a lot of benefits that we're 174 00:11:33.879 --> 00:11:39.480 seeing more and more play out across marketing, play out across businesses, where 175 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:43.879 they realize they have to shrink the time in between an idea and the execution 176 00:11:43.960 --> 00:11:46.559 of it. Tick Tock is another iteration of that, where it's like speed 177 00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:50.639 this process up majorly between we have an idea and let's get this thing out 178 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:54.480 into the world. Well, love chatting around this. There's so much that 179 00:11:54.519 --> 00:11:58.840 we're paying attention to as marketers, trying to figure out what waves are worth 180 00:12:00.559 --> 00:12:03.799 riding and, using the jump rope analogy, what we're trying to actually jump 181 00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:09.600 into. So getting some clarity around that and keeping your eyes open. Hopefully 182 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:11.399 you have someone on your team like I love these discussions right because we're all 183 00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:16.600 focused in different ways. That looking at different waves and our personalities are going 184 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:18.679 to allow us to like align with different ways that we want to ride, 185 00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:24.720 and that brings tremendous benefit to the company as a whole and obviously to our 186 00:12:24.759 --> 00:12:28.039 individual things that we're working on and doing. So if you have any thoughts 187 00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:31.799 on this topic, you want to talk about it further, feel free to 188 00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:35.360 reach out to Emily Dan or. I over on Linkedin. We'd love to 189 00:12:35.399 --> 00:12:41.679 hear from you and connect. Today we are sharing a throwback episode and so 190 00:12:41.759 --> 00:12:46.200 we're about to share a conversation. Topic of this is for things marketing ops 191 00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:50.240 is thinking but won't tell you, and I think this is going to be 192 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:52.879 a fun throwback episode. We're going to be able to get something out of 193 00:12:52.919 --> 00:12:58.080 it. So let's jump in. Charlie, you know, as we were 194 00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:01.600 going back and forth on what the topic was going to be for this you 195 00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:03.720 know, we were talking about what are the things that you're marketing up? 196 00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:09.480 Person Isn't going to tell you or probably won't tell you, but they're definitely 197 00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:13.759 thinking it. Give us a little bit of context, background. You set 198 00:13:13.759 --> 00:13:16.720 it in your linkedin post when we were promoting to see the day. It's 199 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:20.039 not that they're vindictive or that they're keeping things from you, but give us 200 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:24.039 a little bit of context before we dive into these four what these four things 201 00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:26.759 are? Yeah, yeah, I mean and yeah, like I said, 202 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:31.240 in Nothington pist I don't think any mocking up, for I in person is 203 00:13:31.279 --> 00:13:35.919 trying to hide things on purpose. I think you probably get from maybe the 204 00:13:35.919 --> 00:13:39.600 theme, from some of these reasons that we come up with that mighty. 205 00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:43.720 People are very much people pleases. They like to keep people happy, they 206 00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:46.039 like to, you know, over deliver, they like to do things quickly 207 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:50.000 and make sure that every every one of the marketing cells team has what they 208 00:13:50.039 --> 00:13:54.879 need. So sometimes that means they're not like telling everyone the full picture of 209 00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:56.360 kind of you know, I won't give away any of the details about what 210 00:13:56.399 --> 00:14:01.240 we're going to do about but there's a some some certain aspects there. Maybe 211 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:05.600 they're they're holding back so they don't like disappoint people or maybe kind of make 212 00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:07.840 things more complicated for people. Say, that's kind of a theme that we'll 213 00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:11.759 run through some of these things. But but yeah, like I said, 214 00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:15.279 it's not that they're trying to hide things. We have vindictive or bad reasons 215 00:14:15.320 --> 00:14:18.679 or anything like that. We're marketing up to people, have been for ten 216 00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:20.639 years and you know, you know, we would never say a bad thing 217 00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:24.960 about marking ops. People a lot of I love it. So so, 218 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:28.399 Charlie or Cristy, let's dive into this first day. What's the first thing 219 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:31.200 that you're marketing out? Person Won't tell you, but they probably want to 220 00:14:31.240 --> 00:14:35.440 tell you. Yeah, so where we split these half and half. So 221 00:14:35.799 --> 00:14:39.000 I've got the first one here say everything you ask if you're marketing operations person, 222 00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:43.120 is going to take longer than you think and it's probably going to take 223 00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:46.600 longer than they're telling you that. This is back to the people pleasers thing 224 00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:50.039 you are. You want to get that nurture set up, you want to 225 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:52.720 implement that tool, you want to set up this process to do whatever. 226 00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:56.720 The markings person as being a people piece that they want to get that done 227 00:14:56.799 --> 00:15:00.360 quickly. More often than not, alot of the company is that. We 228 00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:05.799 work for the BETB tech companies moving fast, have to deliver on things quickly. 229 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:07.519 So they're going to buy into that and make it tell you, yeah, 230 00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:09.559 I can do this in a week or I can get this done in 231 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:13.039 a couple of days. But what they're not telling you is that actually, 232 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:18.320 it really probably needs a lot longer time than that to make sure you're not 233 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:22.159 going to create a lot of technical debt, any issues down the line, 234 00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:26.600 and maybe they do needn more time just because it's the task is going to 235 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:30.879 literally a human could couldn't do it any quicker. So then they're going to 236 00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:35.279 end up working nights and weekends to make it happen. The other thing is 237 00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:41.440 part of that is that every one of the one of the things that later 238 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:45.639 on we'll talk about is technical debt. But these systems are just getting so 239 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:50.279 unbelievably complicated with now, you know, thousands and thousands of Mr Tech tools 240 00:15:50.360 --> 00:15:54.759 every you know process that everyone can imagine, like trying to bend these tools 241 00:15:54.799 --> 00:16:00.360 to their will. So that just adds even more and more time on to 242 00:16:00.679 --> 00:16:04.799 everything that they need to do. So if they're having to rush things done 243 00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:10.480 and then that technical debt accumulates, it then takes even longer for other aspects 244 00:16:10.600 --> 00:16:14.919 or other projects that you're working on to get done. So the first one, 245 00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:18.200 you know, it just everything takes longer than you think. So when 246 00:16:18.279 --> 00:16:21.879 you are working with your marketing operations team, give them a bit of leeway. 247 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:23.279 You know, yes, you might need to get their email out of 248 00:16:23.320 --> 00:16:27.440 that not just set up or that process set up quickly, but try and 249 00:16:27.480 --> 00:16:30.519 give them as much warning as post abort so that they can have the time 250 00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:34.639 that they actually need to get it done. Makes Sense. crissier then and 251 00:16:34.759 --> 00:16:38.200 anything to add to apt. Almost wonder if there's like a time in a 252 00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:42.919 place and a different for different sizes and different companies, when giving leeway almost 253 00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:48.799 felt like sometimes people add too much process and too much time for small companies. 254 00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:52.679 When you're like, you know, trying to apply enterprise level processes the 255 00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:56.360 smart companies, that becomes like a just a blanket on a fire, just 256 00:16:56.399 --> 00:17:00.919 sucks out all the oxygen. Right. So how do you know what to 257 00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:03.599 do at different stages of like a company size? Is it? My question 258 00:17:03.640 --> 00:17:07.960 makes sense? It does. Yeah, it does. I think there's a 259 00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:10.720 base level that everyone has to be at right, like, if you're just 260 00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:15.240 slacking marketing ups for everything you need them to do, then that it doesn't 261 00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:18.279 matter what company size you are. That's probably not the best way of doing 262 00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:22.640 it right. So there's going to always be some process or a request process 263 00:17:22.759 --> 00:17:26.440 that you should be going through, because that just helps the marketing operations team 264 00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:30.799 prioritize. My ninety nine percent of marking up teams are understaff, so they 265 00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:37.799 have to be ruthless prioritization and if they're just dealing with whatever the latest lack 266 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:41.920 of emergency is there and not getting to the most important projects. So having 267 00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:45.960 a way to at least be able to document what these asks are and then 268 00:17:47.039 --> 00:17:51.400 be able to prioritize is useful. And then when it comes to campaign execution, 269 00:17:51.640 --> 00:17:52.799 you know, getting that nurture set up, getting that email at the 270 00:17:52.839 --> 00:17:59.559 door, getting that webinar program set up, having just a well documented process, 271 00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:02.519 you know, whatever it is. And Yeah, don't open Genera if 272 00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:07.119 you're a fifty person starts up, but still knowing what of the steps that 273 00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:11.440 we need to go through, like submit that a sauna form to then get 274 00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:15.240 the information that you need over to the marketing operations person so they can actually 275 00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:18.599 do their job, because so much time is lost in just the back and 276 00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:22.640 forth to just get things done, and that's just isn't in efficient. Regardless 277 00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:25.759 of whatever company size you're out, I mean it makes a lot of sense, 278 00:18:25.799 --> 00:18:29.240 I feel like, between marketing marketings, kind of like me and James. 279 00:18:29.319 --> 00:18:30.880 Right now it sweet fish and we're just the twenty five person company. 280 00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:36.279 But even then I'm like James, I needed more than a text message. 281 00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:38.279 I mean it text messages, but I'm like, I'm gonna have to with 282 00:18:38.680 --> 00:18:42.160 extract the information that I need in our next one on one. It's really 283 00:18:42.200 --> 00:18:45.680 like the text message. I put it on my put it on our as 284 00:18:45.720 --> 00:18:48.440 on on list just to talk about it if I can get the right information. 285 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:51.759 So I'm usually the one executing coming up with some ideas, but James 286 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:55.319 comes up with lots of ideas. We have to filter it through the now 287 00:18:55.519 --> 00:19:02.000 or later or good idea for some day list? Definitely. Chrissy, anything 288 00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:03.559 to add before we get to the second thing? You're marketing out? Person 289 00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:07.880 will tell you no, but I think that's a great segue into the second 290 00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:11.240 point. I want to make sure we have enough time to cover all of 291 00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:15.720 it, but you know, it's a really good segue into our second thing. 292 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:19.359 That Mos people won't tell you, and and really that's there's just no 293 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:23.720 such thing as an easy tool to manage. I think a lot of the 294 00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:30.240 Times benders will tell you that their tools easy to implement and integrate and and 295 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:33.759 really the fact is, even if it is easy, a lot of times 296 00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:37.920 it rarely is. But every time you add in a new tool it creates 297 00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:41.839 an exponential amount of work. So doesn't just create the amount of work maybe 298 00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:47.279 they're telling you, it creates an exponential so every new tool you're adding it 299 00:19:47.319 --> 00:19:51.920 has more and more work tied to it, because you need to make sure 300 00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:56.640 that when you're adding these tools, the main thing is there's a lot of 301 00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:00.440 you know, human resources that you need to implement and maintain these, and 302 00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:04.480 the reason for that is you need to figure out where does this tool make 303 00:20:04.519 --> 00:20:08.039 sense a nurse stock? You need to make sure there's a, you know, 304 00:20:08.119 --> 00:20:11.759 a full plan for implementing it, and then once you implement it, 305 00:20:11.799 --> 00:20:15.200 there's going to be things that you need you know, could be impacted, 306 00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:21.559 that you need to pay attention to. There's order of operations, there's Dataflow, 307 00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:25.839 there's even maybe legacy issues that come to the surface that you have to 308 00:20:25.839 --> 00:20:30.400 work around, and so all of this themes. You know, implementation a 309 00:20:30.440 --> 00:20:34.559 lot of time. Seems simple and but once you get into it, it's 310 00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:38.920 a hell of a lot more work than what you thought. And so a 311 00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:44.000 lot of teams across marketing will select a tool and then kind of just throw 312 00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:48.079 it on the marking oups teams plate and they have a lot going on already 313 00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:52.200 and they may be in the impression, because they're not technical people, that 314 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:56.400 it's easy. You know, my sales person told me this is easy to 315 00:20:56.400 --> 00:21:00.799 implement, and so their expectations to start using it and implement it into their 316 00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:06.200 strategy is, you know, a lot different than the amount of time will 317 00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:11.079 actually take to implement, and so they may even be banking on using this 318 00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:15.359 tool to execute their strategy right away, but in the end marking knots then 319 00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:19.920 feels a lot of pressure to implement it and then just you know, is 320 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:23.519 like Charlie's said. You know where people please. There's we want to get 321 00:21:23.559 --> 00:21:26.119 it done, we want to get it done to the best of our abilities, 322 00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:30.359 but in some ways there's shortcuts the need to be made. There's maybe 323 00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:34.359 some things you're sacrificing or they're not meeting that deadline, and then that team 324 00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:38.920 is a bit frustrated. So just know that. You know, there's no 325 00:21:40.440 --> 00:21:44.920 such thing as the easy tool to manage and the main thing is the maintenance 326 00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:48.799 part to every new tool that you're adding on, the market knots team has 327 00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:52.720 to maintain it. So when and the human resources and the marketing oops team 328 00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:57.519 is not always fully staff the way it should be given the amount of work 329 00:21:57.559 --> 00:22:03.359 that needs to be done. So I think for this is where empathy comes 330 00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:04.480 in. A lot of this is, you know, the things that they're 331 00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:07.799 not telling you. If they did, you actually might have a little bit 332 00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:12.960 more empathy for the marking knots team and how much work and different challenges that 333 00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:18.160 they're faced with and and this is a big one and makes a sense. 334 00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:21.799 I want to also make sure that we have enough time for QA. Charlie, 335 00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:25.359 do you want to jump in with our third talking point here? Sure, 336 00:22:25.400 --> 00:22:27.720 and I'm going to bring up a everyone's favorite thing to height, which 337 00:22:27.799 --> 00:22:33.000 is attribution, of almost like a dirty word on linkedin these days, and 338 00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:37.559 I think they're to bring it to the thing that markingest person way tell you 339 00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:41.759 as a is a lot of people outside of marketing brations who aren't maybe as 340 00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:47.240 close as the data or have been living with, you know, attribution tools 341 00:22:47.240 --> 00:22:49.880 and reporting tools for a long time, kind of see that a lot of 342 00:22:49.880 --> 00:22:55.519 this conversation is just kind of missing the point of attribution and there's a lot 343 00:22:55.519 --> 00:23:00.759 of misunderstanding about what it is. Alison on our team, she phrases this 344 00:23:00.920 --> 00:23:06.279 perfectly where she says attribution is not there to prove your efforts, if there 345 00:23:06.319 --> 00:23:10.359 to improve your efforts. So everyone thinks like, okay, if I get 346 00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:12.640 this attribution to I can make marketing look great, like this is the thing, 347 00:23:12.759 --> 00:23:18.799 like this Webinar was the thing that created that opportunity, and it's like 348 00:23:18.920 --> 00:23:23.160 yes, and they're like that Webinar has potentially influence that opportunity. But regardless, 349 00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:26.400 that's not the point. The point is to be able to analyze what 350 00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:30.519 is working, look at the touch points, look at the channels, look 351 00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:34.039 at your campaigns, and then use that information to improve. And it could 352 00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:38.519 consistently improve over time. And the thing about consistently improving over times you don't 353 00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:44.880 have to improve dramatically every day. If you can just improve one, two, 354 00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:48.200 three percent every day within your decision making in your budget allocation, that's 355 00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:52.240 going to compound to have a massive effect over time. And that's where attribution 356 00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:56.799 data is useful because, and one of the things actually that a lot of 357 00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:02.720 people hater on it for is that it doesn't track the kind of quote unquote, 358 00:24:02.759 --> 00:24:08.160 invisible touch points like podcasts, like clubhouse rooms, like Linkedin Post. 359 00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:11.319 But that's fine. Just because it doesn't track, that doesn't mean you just 360 00:24:11.400 --> 00:24:15.200 throw it out and not track anything. You know, you still as a 361 00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:19.279 human being, as a mock to you have to use your brain and interpret 362 00:24:19.319 --> 00:24:22.279 the data and then come up with the best way to utilize that and make 363 00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:27.880 decisions and you which factor in these touch points that you're not able to track. 364 00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:33.799 So well, this, this conversation kind of kind of misses the point, 365 00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:37.240 and I think a lot of my people and market operations are scared to 366 00:24:37.319 --> 00:24:41.640 kind of say that when they're seeing this this happening, and really they want 367 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:47.160 to say it, but maybe this turn into such a polarized situation right now 368 00:24:47.160 --> 00:24:49.559 with attribution that is, you know there speak out that stuff. Yeah, 369 00:24:49.720 --> 00:24:52.559 and I mean you've got folks like, you know, Chris Walker or gave 370 00:24:52.599 --> 00:24:56.279 gear heart, that are that take a very strong stand on one way, 371 00:24:56.400 --> 00:24:59.839 you know, not just after us. And there's lots of different topics like 372 00:24:59.880 --> 00:25:03.680 this. And so somebody posting the other day about it's been really hot lately 373 00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:06.759 to talk about how, you know, life's too short to work for a 374 00:25:06.759 --> 00:25:10.839 CEO that doesn't get marketing, and somebody had a point to like, well, 375 00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:14.400 it's not really the CEO's job to get marketing. It's the marketer's job 376 00:25:14.519 --> 00:25:17.960 to convince them of the value of marketing. And so there's always two sides 377 00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:22.960 to that. And I remember actually sharing with somebody after I saw your post, 378 00:25:22.039 --> 00:25:26.920 about that idea of attribution is meant to improve, not it's not just 379 00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:32.440 to prove that would really spoke to a Chrissie. Let's dive into the fourth 380 00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:36.160 thing. That marketing. Your marketing off person isn't gonna, isn't going to 381 00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:40.200 tell you, and then we'll dive into Qa, sure, and Charlie mentioned 382 00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:42.680 it at the beginning. But the final thing we want to touch on is 383 00:25:42.759 --> 00:25:47.880 technical debt. Is Worse than you think and I think this is coming to 384 00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:52.720 the forefront and surface more so now, like Charlie said, as you know, 385 00:25:52.920 --> 00:25:56.799 systems are getting more and more dated and were, but we're also adding 386 00:25:56.920 --> 00:26:03.039 on more technology and more digital touch points and just more, you know, 387 00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:08.920 legacy workflow sitting there. There's there's a lot of technical debt that marking ops 388 00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:14.440 people are dealing with. I mean sales ops as well, but you know, 389 00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:17.920 a big sign of that is marking out people to spend way too much 390 00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:21.519 time in rabbit holes, like chasing you know, why did this thing happen, 391 00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:26.400 why did that thing happen? And that keeps them from actually doing their 392 00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:30.599 day to day jobs because they're constantly chasing this. But many companies are kind 393 00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:37.039 of past that point of no return because the resources required to fix this technical 394 00:26:37.079 --> 00:26:41.000 debt are more than the company has available, or they would have to literally 395 00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:45.319 just stop everything that they're doing to really fix it. And in some cases, 396 00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:48.559 and this might be warranted, or they need to throw more resources at 397 00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:52.799 it, but it continues to accumulate and it just causes, you know, 398 00:26:53.119 --> 00:26:57.960 a lot of inefficiency and really it's not moths fault a lot of the time. 399 00:26:59.160 --> 00:27:03.759 So not pros will oftenhirt systems and they'll do their best to be this. 400 00:27:03.960 --> 00:27:07.480 They'll fix issues. This is the main thing recently at CST. We 401 00:27:07.519 --> 00:27:12.079 come in, we do how the checks and we we will help the teams 402 00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:17.640 actually deal with a lot of this technical debt. But even beyond that, 403 00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:21.599 it's also from different tools that maybe they don't hold the keys to. So 404 00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:26.480 sales force has a lot of technical debt and now that is impacting marking ops 405 00:27:26.519 --> 00:27:30.160 work and what they're doing, and so there's there's more of a light shine 406 00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:34.279 on this, but in some ways they can't fix it all. But they 407 00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:37.640 also don't want to. Probably, you know, they don't have the chance 408 00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:41.119 to really describe this to the team or they don't want to throw other teams 409 00:27:41.160 --> 00:27:47.279 under the bus, or they just can't complain because there's no no one really 410 00:27:47.319 --> 00:27:49.319 to fix it but themselves, that they have these other goals to hit. 411 00:27:49.480 --> 00:27:55.559 So yeah, just technical debt is definitely worse than most people think and and 412 00:27:55.599 --> 00:27:59.720 they it's something to keep in mind as we complicate things. Really the whole 413 00:27:59.720 --> 00:28:04.920 goal recently is how do we simplify but has something sophisticated at scales. But 414 00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:10.400 let's just you know, anything we do is adding more and more technical debt 415 00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:14.240 or technical that is keeping us from hitting those goals. So makes a lot 416 00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:18.319 of sense. Awesome. Chrissie and Charlie are want to open it up to 417 00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:22.880 the rest of the audience now if you, if anybody has any questions around 418 00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:26.759 marketing ops. For those of you that have joined recently, Charlie and Chriss 419 00:28:26.759 --> 00:28:30.720 you have been talking about four things and marketing ops person won't tell you and 420 00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:33.839 we're going to be posting this on our podcast, babygrow. So if you're 421 00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:37.640 interested in the rest of the conversation you came in halfway through, just subscribe 422 00:28:37.720 --> 00:28:41.480 to baby growth podcasts wherever you listen to your podcast, that you can listen 423 00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:45.359 to the entire conversation in a few days when it's live. But Dan, 424 00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:48.400 any thoughts on what Christy just shared? Think the only thing that I was 425 00:28:48.440 --> 00:28:52.000 thinking the whole time is like, man, they're absolutely right. It does 426 00:28:52.039 --> 00:28:57.119 get hard to keep everything bank today and to keep things going and almost wanted 427 00:28:57.200 --> 00:29:03.119 like a part two of like strategies to keep things clean and keep things working 428 00:29:03.160 --> 00:29:06.319 smoothly. But that's probably a little bit beyond the scope of what we're going 429 00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:08.440 to talk about in this clubhouse, but I'm thinking part two would be fun 430 00:29:08.559 --> 00:29:12.400 to show. Yeah, we got love opinions on that. Billy, your 431 00:29:12.599 --> 00:29:18.920 background software engineering. You're also growth marketer, product leader. What what is 432 00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:21.880 your question or comment for Charlie and Chris? You are a marketing APPS. 433 00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:25.759 Well, Christy, you're I think James gave me a little bit good I'm 434 00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:30.519 a software engineer, so I feel your pain on technical debt and also the 435 00:29:32.079 --> 00:29:37.720 difficulty to recognize it and then act upon it. It's always like you run 436 00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:42.440 into something where you realize you're battling more than you're actually creating, and it's 437 00:29:42.519 --> 00:29:48.039 really difficult for leadership to understand that. It's it's a problem that needs to 438 00:29:48.079 --> 00:29:52.000 be fixed, but this system still works to a certain extent, you know. 439 00:29:52.519 --> 00:29:56.000 So I just wanted to reinforced that. I think that that is a 440 00:29:56.000 --> 00:30:00.160 real problem and that it's bubbling up the marketing up where I feel like a 441 00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:06.400 lot of times it's manifested itself in the technical teams. Is is encouraging to 442 00:30:06.440 --> 00:30:11.319 hear someone say that. I guess my question is actually a little bit different 443 00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:17.079 than that. My question is something I've noticed lately and I'm not sure that 444 00:30:17.119 --> 00:30:19.960 I've not noticed in the past, but it's something that's bubbled up more frequently, 445 00:30:21.240 --> 00:30:25.680 is applications that are completely interdependent of each other. So I'm sure we 446 00:30:25.759 --> 00:30:30.160 all are implementing different tools and each one of these tools are dependent on an 447 00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:34.480 integration with another service, and I wonder how many tools do you run into 448 00:30:34.599 --> 00:30:41.880 that provide value outside of integrations in terms of just like it's just stand alone 449 00:30:41.960 --> 00:30:45.400 and it has some some things helping the mocking team with, but it's just 450 00:30:45.480 --> 00:30:48.720 not integrates to the gift full style. Yeah, exactly. So you know, 451 00:30:48.920 --> 00:30:52.359 clubhouse, we're on an APP right now that really does not integrate with 452 00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:57.039 any other services, but it provides US independent value and I don't find very 453 00:30:57.039 --> 00:31:03.359 many of those tools on the B tob market and so I'm really interested if 454 00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:07.920 y'all find any tools that you know outside of they integrate with like your primary 455 00:31:07.079 --> 00:31:11.319 data set. I think that that's something that's really difficult to not at least 456 00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:15.720 integrate with, but like is not inter dependent on sales force or is not 457 00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:21.279 a dependent on, you know, hub spot giving you some level of information. 458 00:31:21.319 --> 00:31:23.680 Like I'm just wondering if are there any tools that you've run across recently 459 00:31:23.720 --> 00:31:26.440 they're like, man, we get so much value out of that. But 460 00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:30.880 and it didn't have to talk to every tool in the world. Yeah, 461 00:31:30.920 --> 00:31:33.279 I Chris, if you want to jump in, I would say in all 462 00:31:33.400 --> 00:31:37.359 line of work, I'm sure there's there's tools out there, but there's a 463 00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:44.799 heavy there's a heavy need for integrations and a lot of the tools that we 464 00:31:44.920 --> 00:31:48.440 consult on that it's all part of the same picture, which is, you 465 00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:52.400 know, all integrated together and doesn't have to be like dependent on selfport data, 466 00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:56.559 but it could be updating selfwillt data or pushing data into cells, for 467 00:31:56.839 --> 00:32:04.119 so I'm struggling to think of a tool that we specifically consult on that isn't 468 00:32:04.200 --> 00:32:07.839 tighten somehow. Yeah, I can any thoughts. The only ones I like 469 00:32:07.960 --> 00:32:15.640 come to mine are it's really around like building your brand or creating communication, 470 00:32:16.240 --> 00:32:21.039 you know, or engagement, and Charlie touched on some of those, you 471 00:32:21.079 --> 00:32:25.759 know, implied attribution touch points and call he called them invisible. But you 472 00:32:25.799 --> 00:32:30.319 know, for things like podcast, like you said, Club House or, 473 00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:35.519 you know, linkedin organic posts or just things that are boosting your brand, 474 00:32:35.559 --> 00:32:38.079 it's really hard to get that data, you know, or anything back into 475 00:32:38.119 --> 00:32:44.759 your system, and we wouldn't expect people to. But from actual system standpoint, 476 00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:49.000 especially in D to be the the full picture is is really what we 477 00:32:49.039 --> 00:32:52.200 want to track and we want to make sure there's no stilo tools. So 478 00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:55.680 all the time we do rely on integration and because we want, you know, 479 00:32:55.759 --> 00:33:00.839 the whole customer journey needs to make sense and and seeing all of that, 480 00:33:01.039 --> 00:33:07.160 having it the you know, cohesive and it's super important. So a 481 00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:09.359 lot of times, you know, we look to we need it to be 482 00:33:09.400 --> 00:33:13.960 integrated, we need to be able to send this data over to you know, 483 00:33:14.119 --> 00:33:16.559 even towards as they they integrate. I have some issues that some of 484 00:33:16.599 --> 00:33:22.480 the integration and how we get data across your accounts into it or ownership, 485 00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:27.279 and that causes issues. But it's a really great question because in some pieces 486 00:33:27.319 --> 00:33:31.400 it's there aren't really many, mainly because we need to tie these touch points 487 00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:37.799 together and we need that customer journey to be something that we can have a 488 00:33:37.880 --> 00:33:42.160 hundred percent insight into and have control over. Yeah, I guess maybe that 489 00:33:42.759 --> 00:33:46.440 there's tools that you know at demand marked a great market would just use independently 490 00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:51.000 of the marketing OPS team. But generally I think when it gets onto the 491 00:33:51.000 --> 00:33:53.519 marketing OPS teams table, it's like how do I integrate this into my full 492 00:33:53.599 --> 00:33:57.920 stat with, which is generally you know your mark the two big things you're 493 00:33:57.920 --> 00:34:01.319 marking automation platform and and sales force, because you want that data actionable for 494 00:34:01.319 --> 00:34:05.319 the sales team. You're on that data actionable for the marketing teams. So 495 00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:07.639 you need it in those systems to be at action on it because that's where 496 00:34:07.679 --> 00:34:13.679 those two teams are living. So so I think maybe it's just a consequence 497 00:34:13.840 --> 00:34:17.559 of our role that we what comes on to our desk. Generally it's like, 498 00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:21.320 okay, how do we integrate this into us that? But it doesn't 499 00:34:21.320 --> 00:34:24.920 mean there aren't tools out there that, it seems using independently. That makes 500 00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:29.599 a lot of see there's a difference between ones that integrate and then like kind 501 00:34:29.599 --> 00:34:31.679 of sit on top of so there's a lot of especially if you're a product 502 00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:37.519 let focus. There's a lot of like tools that you can and it's integrating 503 00:34:37.519 --> 00:34:40.519 and that point but have on your application it self that's helping, you know, 504 00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:47.280 it ad testing or gathering survey and sights or sending them down certain documentation 505 00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:51.800 path and stuff like that, where you don't need all of that data connected 506 00:34:51.960 --> 00:34:57.440 to your other platforms, but it is, you know, really helping as 507 00:34:57.480 --> 00:35:01.199 a value add for that product experience. So, billy, do we just 508 00:35:01.239 --> 00:35:04.880 for a clubhouse? Terms and conditions, billity. Do we have your permission 509 00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:08.880 to share your voice on the podcast? Absolutely awesome, and one quick comment 510 00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:13.920 to that. I think it's also a product of scale, right, like 511 00:35:14.079 --> 00:35:17.519 when you actually need a marketing ups person within a business, you're probably reaching 512 00:35:17.559 --> 00:35:23.639 a scale in which the integrations or the communication across different platforms is is an 513 00:35:23.639 --> 00:35:28.280 integral part of the strategy that you're trying to execute. Again, so that 514 00:35:28.280 --> 00:35:30.000 that makes sense. I've just kind of been, you know, I did 515 00:35:30.760 --> 00:35:34.880 it, ideating around this thing. Or there's very few products that are interdependent 516 00:35:35.039 --> 00:35:37.880 or do not have to integrate with everything. I think notion might be one 517 00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:42.920 that's kind of closest, where you can actually build a set of communication inside 518 00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:46.119 a tool that doesn't necessarily have to talk to other tools. So awesome. 519 00:35:46.159 --> 00:35:50.559 Thank you. Thanks a lot for the question, billy, my question you 520 00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:53.519 kind of enclosing and based on something billy just mentioned. Charlie and Chrissy, 521 00:35:53.679 --> 00:35:59.719 what scale or what size of a company is it typical that you would make 522 00:35:59.760 --> 00:36:04.159 your first marketing apps higher? That's a great question. We actually did a 523 00:36:04.159 --> 00:36:07.599 bit of research on this a few years back and I think Chris here's the 524 00:36:07.800 --> 00:36:13.199 ratio was generally like in the best companies, like an eight to one, 525 00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:17.039 right, so one in terms of marketers to marketing ops people or wow, 526 00:36:17.079 --> 00:36:21.880 and I think that. So it doesn't mean that when you get to eight 527 00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:27.440 people you should hire one. I think the definite requirement is that if you 528 00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:30.519 don't have one your you should have someone on your team that is technical enough, 529 00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:34.639 right, because if you if you just got a team and you start 530 00:36:34.679 --> 00:36:38.320 implementing a tool like Marquetto and start adding you know, drifts, ex sense, 531 00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:43.480 you know demand, but like all of these additional tools in the stack, 532 00:36:43.559 --> 00:36:46.000 and that you've got that one person, like a demand gen manager, 533 00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:52.039 trying to manage it and they don't really have much background in that, you're 534 00:36:52.119 --> 00:36:57.519 going to just create just such a monster that will be and this just going 535 00:36:57.599 --> 00:37:00.679 to just sink and and you'll have once you do hire the marketing opps person, 536 00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:05.000 then they're gonna have a lot of work on their hand. So I 537 00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:08.239 think it's less about team size and more about kind of the complexity of your 538 00:37:08.280 --> 00:37:12.280 marketing and when you should hire that first person. And if you are, 539 00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:15.840 if you are going to implement, you know, big tools like Marquetto you 540 00:37:15.880 --> 00:37:21.039 need somebody knows what they do like that. COVID MND have changed that a 541 00:37:21.079 --> 00:37:25.280 little bit, that ratio where you have more and more your touch points are 542 00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:29.719 digital, you may be doing less in person event. So I think we're 543 00:37:29.719 --> 00:37:34.559 seeing maybe even a shift and maybe dollars that would go to someone who's usually 544 00:37:34.599 --> 00:37:37.840 like coordinating field events or something like that will actually go to a marketing ops 545 00:37:37.880 --> 00:37:45.280 person because their integral to like scaling these type of digital touchpoints out and it 546 00:37:45.320 --> 00:37:47.880 doesn't need that other role. I don't I think that those roles are still 547 00:37:47.920 --> 00:37:51.800 super important in our part should be part of the team, but I do 548 00:37:51.920 --> 00:37:55.119 think that like companies now are investing more in their marketing ops team as they 549 00:37:55.159 --> 00:37:59.599 should. Yeah, awesome, well, we are. We are right at 550 00:37:59.639 --> 00:38:04.719 our time for today. Charlie and Chrissy, how can folks listening on clubhouse 551 00:38:04.840 --> 00:38:07.360 and and BB growth stay connected with you. Yeah, well, all the 552 00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:12.480 usual stuff really say. We're on Linkedin. We try to add to the 553 00:38:12.480 --> 00:38:15.760 community that you're putting out a lot of great content. Both of you are 554 00:38:15.800 --> 00:38:17.920 there, so I can, I cannot reinforce that for anybody listening. If 555 00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:21.960 you're not already following Charlie Chrissy on Linkedin, you should be. Well, 556 00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:25.679 we led a lot from from you guys in the transparency that your team has 557 00:38:25.760 --> 00:38:29.880 on Linkedin and how much you put out in terms of like best practice is 558 00:38:29.960 --> 00:38:32.559 never think so thanks to that. And then we have our podcast, which 559 00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:37.519 is forward thinking podcast that you can find in all the poll the podcast channels 560 00:38:37.559 --> 00:38:43.440 and website. Just CST MARKETINGCOM love it. Wonderful. Dan. Anything before 561 00:38:43.519 --> 00:38:46.239 we let charline Chrissy go and close this from down? Only that, as 562 00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:52.239 a somebody coming from the BBC marketing side, usually smaller teams, it's making 563 00:38:52.280 --> 00:38:55.119 a lot of sense why sometimes struggle to scale marketing. I'm like, Oh, 564 00:38:55.239 --> 00:39:00.000 there's like a whole team of people in marketing ops. That usually helps 565 00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:02.719 with all those things that I've usually been doing it all myself. So as 566 00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:07.639 a marketing team of one currently and sweetfish, I feel a little bit of 567 00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:13.119 release and then it's not. It's not just usually one person job, but 568 00:39:13.480 --> 00:39:15.960 at the same time one person's can still get a lot done. It's fantastic 569 00:39:15.960 --> 00:39:20.639 to hear from you guys as far as what you're doing and the steps you're 570 00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:24.480 taking to bring clarity to add I don't know, to help marketing teams essentially 571 00:39:24.519 --> 00:39:29.079 flow more smoothly. Wonderful. Thank you, Charlie and Christy, for joining 572 00:39:29.159 --> 00:39:31.599 us. This has been fantastic. This will be live again. Are this. 573 00:39:31.599 --> 00:39:36.159 This is live now and club house. It'll go up on beauby growth 574 00:39:36.199 --> 00:39:38.280 in the next few days. So if you caught halfway through the conversation, 575 00:39:38.360 --> 00:39:42.800 make sure to go and subscribe to be growth listen to it there. And 576 00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:45.559 for all of you joining us live today, thank you all so much for 577 00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:45.519 being here.