Nov. 3, 2020

3 Steps to Owning Your Marketing Career

In this episode we talk to Hannah Mans, Director of Account Based Marketing at Directive.  

Are you getting every B2B Growth episode in your favorite podcast player? 

If not, you can easily subscribe & search past episodes here

You can also find us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify

Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.040 --> 00:00:08.400 welcome back to be to be growth on Logan Lyles with sweet fish media. I'm 2 00:00:08.400 --> 00:00:12.460 joined today by Hannah Man's She's the director of a B. M Over at directive. 3 00:00:12.460 --> 00:00:15.880 Hannah. Welcome to the show. How you doing today? I'm doing great. Thanks so 4 00:00:15.880 --> 00:00:19.240 much for having me. Absolutely. We have to know with most of our guests. Are 5 00:00:19.240 --> 00:00:24.860 you Team Coker, Team Pepsi? I really got to know 100% team coke. Okay. We've 6 00:00:24.860 --> 00:00:29.270 only got a few team team Pepsi, folks, and I'm surprised here. A sweet fish. 7 00:00:29.270 --> 00:00:33.040 I'm surprised James hasn't just fired them. It's like grounds for dismissal 8 00:00:33.040 --> 00:00:38.690 around here. James is just so adamant against Pepsi. For whatever reason I 9 00:00:38.700 --> 00:00:42.560 could I could drink either. But I'm definitely team coke, if you ask me. So 10 00:00:42.540 --> 00:00:45.960 good to know where your allegiances lie. Hannah, we're gonna be talking about 11 00:00:45.960 --> 00:00:48.910 more than soft drinks today. We're gonna be talking about career path 12 00:00:48.910 --> 00:00:52.780 thing and really mapping your journey for your career, especially within 13 00:00:52.780 --> 00:00:56.700 marketing. And as you and I were chatting, I would love for you to share 14 00:00:56.700 --> 00:01:00.940 with listeners a little bit about your recent journey and why this has become 15 00:01:00.940 --> 00:01:06.310 really a point of passion for you personally lately. Sure, sure. So a 16 00:01:06.310 --> 00:01:09.220 couple of weeks ago, I'm a member of the Revenue Collective. In a couple of 17 00:01:09.220 --> 00:01:13.240 weeks ago, during one of our marketing meetings, one of the members waas 18 00:01:13.250 --> 00:01:16.690 talking to the group and wanting advice for, you know, connecting and talking 19 00:01:16.690 --> 00:01:21.730 with his manager about his career development at his organization and 20 00:01:21.740 --> 00:01:26.140 myself and another colleague of mine. Another member was really harping on 21 00:01:26.150 --> 00:01:30.510 trying to understand, like, what did he want? You know, And it was really 22 00:01:30.520 --> 00:01:35.150 interesting to me how difficult that question is to answer or, you know, and 23 00:01:35.150 --> 00:01:39.650 not and not really having that as your starting point when you're thinking 24 00:01:39.650 --> 00:01:44.470 about you know, your next career move or your your career path. Eso That's 25 00:01:44.470 --> 00:01:48.090 what definitely got me, like really kind of like started on realizing how 26 00:01:48.090 --> 00:01:51.700 important it was to really talk about this. Yeah, absolutely. This is, Ah, 27 00:01:51.700 --> 00:01:55.920 hot topic for us here at Sweet Fish because it's actually part of our 28 00:01:55.920 --> 00:02:00.380 mission here. We see part of what we're doing is inspiring. People toe own 29 00:02:00.380 --> 00:02:04.000 their careers because we know that the podcast that we produce, whether that's 30 00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:08.360 for marketing or HR, professionals or manufacturing professionals that if we 31 00:02:08.360 --> 00:02:12.590 can produce content, that helps them see where they wanna go, who they wanna 32 00:02:12.590 --> 00:02:15.970 learn from and get better in their careers. They could take ownership of 33 00:02:15.970 --> 00:02:19.750 their career and then really start to decide where they want to go and and 34 00:02:19.750 --> 00:02:23.490 really head there. So would you say that kind of career path thing as a 35 00:02:23.490 --> 00:02:28.050 term? Maybe the way to think about it is I'm I'm figuring out the path. And 36 00:02:28.050 --> 00:02:32.490 now I'm headed down a definitive path rather than I'm just kind of figuring 37 00:02:32.490 --> 00:02:36.740 out whatever the next step is. Whatever kind of comes my way exactly, like 38 00:02:36.750 --> 00:02:40.470 really taking ownership of your own journey, right? Not really. Just 39 00:02:40.470 --> 00:02:44.830 keeping it up to chance or being afraid to almost have those conversations and 40 00:02:44.830 --> 00:02:49.270 ask, Where do you stand or ask, Where do you find yourself? And then I think 41 00:02:49.270 --> 00:02:51.840 what the value that you guys will bring with the podcast is kind of helping 42 00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:55.940 people because you don't know what you don't know, right? So how are you even 43 00:02:55.940 --> 00:02:58.970 starting to, like, really these things that might not even be circulating? And 44 00:02:58.970 --> 00:03:02.030 I might even be a thought that you're having until you're able to get into 45 00:03:02.030 --> 00:03:05.420 the heads of other people's minds, see where they're at, maybe really help you 46 00:03:05.430 --> 00:03:09.140 as you're trying to, you know, map out whatever type of professional journey 47 00:03:09.140 --> 00:03:11.940 someone might be embarking on, whether that be with their career ownership, 48 00:03:11.950 --> 00:03:15.300 with their channel ownership, with their departmental ownership, whatever 49 00:03:15.300 --> 00:03:20.400 they have you. Yeah. So, Hannah, you've started to develop a framework to help 50 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:24.590 people think about how do they map out their career path or start on this 51 00:03:24.600 --> 00:03:29.090 journey of career Path thing as it is, what are some of the major steps? If 52 00:03:29.090 --> 00:03:32.580 you can kind of outline some of the steps in the framework and then let's 53 00:03:32.580 --> 00:03:36.750 kind of break down each one in turn. So maybe speak to kind of the major steps 54 00:03:36.760 --> 00:03:41.260 and then we can dive into where people start from there. Sure. So I think the 55 00:03:41.260 --> 00:03:44.830 first place always start is kind of introspection. And that self evaluation 56 00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:49.100 kind of asking that question. What? Hey, what do I want? You know? And then from 57 00:03:49.100 --> 00:03:53.340 there, are, you know, are you in a place for that to happen? Is are you is 58 00:03:53.340 --> 00:03:56.820 like it's a company or at the organization you're in, you know? Is is 59 00:03:56.820 --> 00:04:01.610 what you want. Is it feasible? And then if it is, you don't talk to your boss. 60 00:04:01.620 --> 00:04:05.150 You know, even I would even advocate. Maybe if it isn't Talk to your boss. 61 00:04:05.150 --> 00:04:08.660 How you do that, of course, is very different. But talk to your supervisor. 62 00:04:08.670 --> 00:04:13.280 And if it is the right place, you know, having a having a set conversation 63 00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:15.940 around the milestones and you know, what does that look like to get you 64 00:04:15.940 --> 00:04:19.649 there? And if it's not the evaluation process kind of thing, you know, like 65 00:04:19.740 --> 00:04:22.640 when you're looking at the market and you're looking at you know what the 66 00:04:22.640 --> 00:04:26.420 organizations like. How do you ensure that you're setting yourself up for 67 00:04:26.420 --> 00:04:31.460 success when picking your next step? Yeah. So it starts with introspection. 68 00:04:31.460 --> 00:04:35.510 Step number two would be kind of assessing the broader situation so that 69 00:04:35.520 --> 00:04:40.000 introspective is about Where do I want to go, then? Once you're clear on that, 70 00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:44.300 determining where am I now and then how does that relate to where I want to go? 71 00:04:44.310 --> 00:04:49.110 And then that kicks off maybe an initial conversation with your manager 72 00:04:49.110 --> 00:04:53.190 or your boss, whoever whoever that is and then you can take appropriate next 73 00:04:53.190 --> 00:04:57.970 steps from there. As you start that phase one, that internal introspection 74 00:04:57.980 --> 00:05:01.620 as you think about that, what are some good questions that you think folks 75 00:05:01.620 --> 00:05:06.130 should be asking themselves? Obviously, start with. What do I want? That's a 76 00:05:06.130 --> 00:05:09.250 really great kind of open ended questions. But for someone who kind of 77 00:05:09.250 --> 00:05:13.410 get stuck on that question, do you have some other questions or things that 78 00:05:13.410 --> 00:05:18.360 they could do to try to figure out where to start with that initial step? 79 00:05:18.540 --> 00:05:23.310 Yes. So I think that the first really important thing so identify is is you 80 00:05:23.310 --> 00:05:26.860 know, do you want to be in a startup or a matured environment, right? And kind 81 00:05:26.860 --> 00:05:29.880 of having that conversation with yourself? Do I like to be a big fish in 82 00:05:29.880 --> 00:05:33.310 a little pond? And if you like to be a big fish in a little pond, early stage 83 00:05:33.310 --> 00:05:38.130 startups in the start up environment is a great place to be your and also from 84 00:05:38.130 --> 00:05:41.380 a scale perspective, right, you're gonna be able to wear multiple hats. 85 00:05:41.380 --> 00:05:43.850 You're going to get to your hands into everything. You get to kind of have 86 00:05:43.850 --> 00:05:48.080 that you know, that, really that that impact across the whole organization to 87 00:05:48.080 --> 00:05:50.660 kind of defining like, Is that what I want? Do I want to be, you know, a jack 88 00:05:50.660 --> 00:05:56.220 of all trades and really have a kind of an experience in different areas of 89 00:05:56.220 --> 00:05:59.650 Maybe if we're talking specifically about marketing, do I want to go and to 90 00:05:59.660 --> 00:06:03.930 understand the content, demand gen You know, revenue marketing, integrated 91 00:06:03.930 --> 00:06:07.800 marketing, whatever, have you whatever that looks like. You know, start ups, a 92 00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:10.940 really great environments to do that. And then once you start getting into 93 00:06:10.940 --> 00:06:15.720 larger organizations, it comes, you know, more down to you to scope. And 94 00:06:15.730 --> 00:06:20.980 you get to really become an expert in one area of your craft. So that's where 95 00:06:20.980 --> 00:06:22.950 you really double down. And maybe you're going to be, you know, be a 96 00:06:22.950 --> 00:06:26.740 really fantastic brand marketer, and you're gonna be develop your expertise 97 00:06:26.740 --> 00:06:30.490 there, Or maybe it's going to be digital demand, Gen. And where you 98 00:06:30.490 --> 00:06:33.250 really begin to master all the different. You know, all the different 99 00:06:33.260 --> 00:06:37.320 advertising platforms, and I have a robust understanding of S e o. And then, 100 00:06:37.320 --> 00:06:42.090 you know, in in I would argue in most positions besides marketing, I do think 101 00:06:42.090 --> 00:06:45.710 in marketing you do have to have, like you do have to have a level of 102 00:06:45.710 --> 00:06:49.150 understanding across all the different disciplines. But scope is where the 103 00:06:49.150 --> 00:06:53.040 money is that right? People are gonna pay top dollar for experts, even when 104 00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:56.340 you're coming into, like, start ups that are starting to scale after Siri's 105 00:06:56.340 --> 00:07:00.410 be there Now we're gonna have funding to start taking are probably seriously, 106 00:07:00.420 --> 00:07:03.040 more realistically, you're gonna start to have money to start taking on 107 00:07:03.050 --> 00:07:06.430 experts to run departments. You might have been there since the beginning, 108 00:07:06.430 --> 00:07:09.500 but now you no longer have the skill set, right? So, you know, kind of 109 00:07:09.510 --> 00:07:13.030 having those kind of conversations with yourself, I think, is a really great 110 00:07:13.030 --> 00:07:16.930 place to start. I like how you break down. Do I wanna have kind of that 111 00:07:16.930 --> 00:07:21.250 scaled impact, which can mean I get to do a lot of different things. I get toe 112 00:07:21.250 --> 00:07:25.610 have impact in a lot of different areas. Maybe I won't make it much, though. And 113 00:07:25.610 --> 00:07:30.030 if I want to narrow and become an expert, maybe I can make mawr. But that 114 00:07:30.030 --> 00:07:34.130 looks different and not that money is the only factor for anyone, right? And 115 00:07:34.130 --> 00:07:38.560 I think that's what this initial phase of introspection is all about our 116 00:07:38.560 --> 00:07:41.590 director of audience growth. And Sanchez just put out Ah, post on 117 00:07:41.590 --> 00:07:44.700 LinkedIn the other day. You might have to scroll a bit in his feet because he 118 00:07:44.700 --> 00:07:48.760 posts, like three times a day is just a machine. But it was about maybe we 119 00:07:48.760 --> 00:07:52.270 could link to it in the show notes. It was basically about your marketing 120 00:07:52.270 --> 00:07:56.990 career and what is more valuable, a generalist versus a specialist, and how 121 00:07:56.990 --> 00:08:00.620 do they play off of each other? Do you have to be a generalist first before 122 00:08:00.620 --> 00:08:03.580 you can really become a specialist because you don't know what you need to 123 00:08:03.590 --> 00:08:07.740 specialize in or what you want to be specialized in or what you would do 124 00:08:07.740 --> 00:08:12.240 well specialized in? I think those are all really good questions for people to 125 00:08:12.250 --> 00:08:17.350 ask themselves and to think about. And if your aim is to go for that scope and 126 00:08:17.350 --> 00:08:22.000 to become a great brand marketing CMO one day, then how do you get there? 127 00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:26.450 Maybe there are times where scale in a smaller startup can help you get there, 128 00:08:26.460 --> 00:08:30.710 so I think that this initial phase is really important. Say you've kind of 129 00:08:30.710 --> 00:08:33.720 figured this out. You kind of think where you know where you wanna go. Not 130 00:08:33.720 --> 00:08:37.570 that that is set in stone and etched on a tablet somewhere. But you kind of 131 00:08:37.570 --> 00:08:41.950 have a working idea. You have a working path, and that might change. But then 132 00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:45.230 the next step of assessing your situation, what are some of the 133 00:08:45.230 --> 00:08:49.320 questions you recommend people ask themselves or ask their peers as they 134 00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:54.610 look at? Am I in a situation that is close to where I wanna go or is setting 135 00:08:54.610 --> 00:08:59.020 me up to take the next step toe where I want to go? Yeah, And then that's where 136 00:08:59.020 --> 00:09:02.300 you've already kind of probably, you know, if your visual I like to write 137 00:09:02.300 --> 00:09:04.790 things out, I'd like to see it. You've made your list. Now you're starting to 138 00:09:04.790 --> 00:09:08.080 look at things. And then we need to say, like, you know, I might in a place 139 00:09:08.080 --> 00:09:11.200 where I can do this. And then that's where you start to compare and contrast. 140 00:09:11.210 --> 00:09:14.510 I think one really interesting thing to bring up for marketers. If if you're in 141 00:09:14.510 --> 00:09:18.060 a serious days or serious B company, the resource is probably aren't there 142 00:09:18.060 --> 00:09:22.610 for you to do a whole lot you better be ready. Thio get really creative and you 143 00:09:22.610 --> 00:09:26.440 could have a lot of really awesome ideas. But you have to be comfortable. 144 00:09:26.440 --> 00:09:29.360 I think a lot of might not be able to come to fruition. So you might not be 145 00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:32.900 really be able to get that that experience that you're looking for, 146 00:09:32.910 --> 00:09:36.630 just simply do the fact of a budget constraint, you know? So that might be 147 00:09:36.630 --> 00:09:39.350 something important to think about what we're thinking. I do want to make an 148 00:09:39.350 --> 00:09:44.330 impact. But now, looking at the organization to see, you know, or even 149 00:09:44.340 --> 00:09:47.480 those conversations you would maybe have with a founder about how do they 150 00:09:47.480 --> 00:09:50.920 value marketing? Can you see that? Your that they're invested, that they see 151 00:09:50.920 --> 00:09:54.520 the value? Or do you foresee yourself having an uphill battle here? You know, 152 00:09:54.520 --> 00:09:57.940 I'm trying to fight for everything that you need. That's where I think the next 153 00:09:57.940 --> 00:10:01.340 you just start kind of doing that Compare contrast where you currently 154 00:10:01.340 --> 00:10:05.870 find yourself at toe, understand? Can I make Can I make what I want happen here? 155 00:10:06.040 --> 00:10:09.030 I think ideally we would all love that right. That's what that would be the 156 00:10:09.030 --> 00:10:12.540 dream. If we're somewhere, you're probably really happy. And you want to 157 00:10:12.540 --> 00:10:16.230 know how can I start Thio, excel in my career? Make a home for me here? Yeah, 158 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:19.990 absolutely. So let's say you've assessed the situation and you need to 159 00:10:19.990 --> 00:10:24.480 start having those conversations with folks either because you've realized, 160 00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:28.030 Hey, I am in a really good spot. This is gonna help me get to where I wanna 161 00:10:28.030 --> 00:10:33.660 go or you realized Oh, no, I think I'm not in the right spot. In either of 162 00:10:33.660 --> 00:10:37.180 those situations. Can you kind of compare and contrast the way that you 163 00:10:37.180 --> 00:10:41.610 wanna approach those conversations with your superiors, depending on what you 164 00:10:41.610 --> 00:10:45.470 find out in that phase one of introspection and that phase two of 165 00:10:45.480 --> 00:10:49.450 assessing the situation that you're in? Yeah, of course, your manager can play 166 00:10:49.450 --> 00:10:53.210 a huge role in your success at an organization, right? So I think the 167 00:10:53.220 --> 00:10:57.630 first and foremost the things that kind of realizes you need to establish the 168 00:10:57.630 --> 00:11:02.300 relationship that you want because you know, e just would never assume that 169 00:11:02.310 --> 00:11:06.460 because you report to somebody that, um, they have time to manage you that they 170 00:11:06.470 --> 00:11:09.900 want to manage you. Or that they even know how to manage you. So that's like 171 00:11:09.910 --> 00:11:12.860 it's a really great starting place to say, like, how can I establish that 172 00:11:12.860 --> 00:11:18.770 relationship that that I want with them and not to get too off topic? But I 173 00:11:18.770 --> 00:11:21.390 find there's a couple of ways to do that. You know, trust is always the 174 00:11:21.390 --> 00:11:24.770 most important. Make sure that you guys have the trust and it goes both ways. 175 00:11:24.770 --> 00:11:27.760 You need to be able to trust them, but they need to also be able to trust you 176 00:11:27.770 --> 00:11:33.240 and understanding what their bottom line is. And you make their life easier 177 00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:37.400 when you when you're able to kind of take things off their plate or truly 178 00:11:37.400 --> 00:11:40.280 understand what they're being measured for and what's important to them. 179 00:11:40.290 --> 00:11:43.410 That's how you become invaluable and then understanding their strengths and 180 00:11:43.410 --> 00:11:47.540 weaknesses and being able to kind of close the gap there and really leverage 181 00:11:47.540 --> 00:11:52.100 and learn from their strengths. S So that's, you know, kind of talking with 182 00:11:52.100 --> 00:11:55.530 your boss, but making sure that you, before talking with them, that you have 183 00:11:55.530 --> 00:11:59.230 that relationship where you can have this conversation, you know, and just, 184 00:11:59.230 --> 00:12:02.960 you know, and then kind of go to them and kind of laid out for them you know, 185 00:12:02.970 --> 00:12:06.650 at the end of the day, they want to see you be successful. It's just probably 186 00:12:06.650 --> 00:12:11.090 not their top priority. They're also responsible for quite a lot. So, um, 187 00:12:11.090 --> 00:12:14.500 coming to the table once you've identified is a much more powerful 188 00:12:14.500 --> 00:12:18.980 place than if you were just going like, hey, what does life look like here for 189 00:12:18.980 --> 00:12:22.640 me? What do we got going on? I need to know. I don't know. But then, you know, 190 00:12:22.640 --> 00:12:25.990 when they come back to you, what do you want? And you're like, Oh, I don't know, 191 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:30.320 right? Yeah. Yeah. It comes back to that conversation that you were talking 192 00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:35.280 about in the community at the top of the episode. So, Hannah, any advice for 193 00:12:35.280 --> 00:12:40.860 folks who say Okay, I know where I wanna go. I realized that I don't know 194 00:12:40.860 --> 00:12:45.540 if I'm in the right situation and I need to have this conversation with my 195 00:12:45.540 --> 00:12:51.640 boss, but maybe I need to establish a little bit more relationship. We don't 196 00:12:51.640 --> 00:12:57.120 have that now. Do you have any advice on how to establish that trust and to 197 00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:01.360 make the turn to starting that conversation any any dues? And Don's 198 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:06.210 for folks that air in that specific situation. Sure, I think the best. You 199 00:13:06.210 --> 00:13:10.070 know, most of us will have one on ones with our manager. I am a firm believer. 200 00:13:10.070 --> 00:13:13.310 You get you set the agenda. It's your meeting there giving you their time. Go 201 00:13:13.310 --> 00:13:16.950 into meeting like and let them know the day before, um, set out the agenda 202 00:13:16.950 --> 00:13:19.870 outlining everything that you want to talk about. Everything that you have on 203 00:13:19.870 --> 00:13:23.230 there on your on your plate right now that you want to get their input on. I 204 00:13:23.230 --> 00:13:27.640 know that most time I've understood that like my managers have like, have 205 00:13:27.640 --> 00:13:30.480 been like if they're a reader, so they want to read it, they need to see it 206 00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:33.480 before them so they can digest it. And so I've always done that the day before, 207 00:13:33.490 --> 00:13:37.710 it's really just helped set the tone and, uh, for a meeting, but also the 208 00:13:37.710 --> 00:13:40.960 fact that, like they're not having to come to me and asked me what's going on, 209 00:13:40.970 --> 00:13:44.220 you know what I mean? I'm providing them with the with the insights that 210 00:13:44.220 --> 00:13:47.120 they need before they can even ask, right? So that would be my next thing 211 00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:50.790 is like beaten to the punch. They proactively answer questions that you 212 00:13:50.790 --> 00:13:54.170 know that they're gonna have on, you know, always kind of have a If you have 213 00:13:54.170 --> 00:13:57.080 problems, have that solution ready might not be the right solution. But, 214 00:13:57.080 --> 00:14:00.320 like, ask yourself, what would they dio and make sure that you like you have At 215 00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:04.240 least you're trying to be that so that that that problem solver and not that 216 00:14:04.240 --> 00:14:08.180 person that's just always bringing up, you know the problem. Those would be 217 00:14:08.180 --> 00:14:12.840 some, I think advice I would give. And then when you get feedback immediately, 218 00:14:12.840 --> 00:14:18.050 apply it right. And if they can't see that report on it, just keeping those 219 00:14:18.050 --> 00:14:22.910 lines of communication really open. Yeah, there's a really great point I'm 220 00:14:22.910 --> 00:14:26.000 taking notes here is you're talking Hannah. And I think we've got, you know, 221 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:31.710 four tips for making your one on ones more effective for you one developing 222 00:14:31.710 --> 00:14:36.810 agenda. Send that to your boss ahead of time. Be proactive not only in sending 223 00:14:36.810 --> 00:14:40.850 the agenda, but also anticipating what questions they have, what they're gonna 224 00:14:40.850 --> 00:14:46.070 want updates on and add that to the agenda. Then number three was, you know, 225 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:49.600 offer solutions. It doesn't mean you have to have the perfect solution, but 226 00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:54.880 at least have a 1.0 version and say, Hey, I have this problem. This is the 227 00:14:54.880 --> 00:14:58.830 first idea I had to potentially solve it. Do you think that's the right path? 228 00:14:58.830 --> 00:15:01.880 Do you have any advice? Do you think I'm heading in the wrong direction 229 00:15:01.880 --> 00:15:06.320 there? It often elicits a very emotional response when you tell 230 00:15:06.320 --> 00:15:09.800 someone. Hey, Hannah, do you think I'm doing something wrong here? And they 231 00:15:09.800 --> 00:15:13.330 might say, Oh, no, no, no. But then they would say. But I would do this in 232 00:15:13.330 --> 00:15:17.060 this a little bit differently, right? It just kind of triggers them to 233 00:15:17.060 --> 00:15:20.650 respond and then make sure that you're applying feedback. I think that's one 234 00:15:20.650 --> 00:15:24.080 of the tactical things. You know what you were saying about building trust 235 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:27.690 with your manager so that you can have some tougher conversations which I want 236 00:15:27.690 --> 00:15:31.330 to get to you on in just a second about some of those tougher conversations, 237 00:15:31.330 --> 00:15:35.120 especially around comp in those sorts of things. But I think we understand 238 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:38.480 that, right? I need to make sure my manager, trust me, I need to trust them 239 00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:43.510 that, but taking the feedback they've given you, making sure that you apply 240 00:15:43.510 --> 00:15:47.730 it and making sure that you know that, that they can see the impact of that. 241 00:15:47.740 --> 00:15:51.830 That's just a way over time to build trust with them because they've they've 242 00:15:51.830 --> 00:15:55.640 taken time to give you feedback, and you show that you're gonna honor that 243 00:15:55.640 --> 00:15:58.710 time and that input from their leadership and actually do something 244 00:15:58.710 --> 00:16:03.190 with it. So let's jump from there into. Maybe there is a tougher conversation 245 00:16:03.190 --> 00:16:07.660 where you realize either based on compensation or based on, you know, 246 00:16:07.670 --> 00:16:11.930 upward mobility and even the opportunity for a promotion or a 247 00:16:11.930 --> 00:16:15.950 different sort of roll. It just isn't there or you're not sure if it's there, 248 00:16:15.950 --> 00:16:19.150 but you wanna ask that question? But you don't want to just come off of, 249 00:16:19.140 --> 00:16:22.520 Well, when am I going to get a raise? Or when am I going to get a promotion? 250 00:16:22.520 --> 00:16:25.980 Because that's not the way that you wanna ask that. So for someone that 251 00:16:25.980 --> 00:16:30.250 says, Yeah, I realize that, but I'm not really quite sure how I should word it, 252 00:16:30.250 --> 00:16:34.350 how I should bring up those tougher conversations. What would you say there? 253 00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:40.310 Yes, so I would say first things first. You have to create your narrative 254 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:43.300 that's that's so important you're telling a story when you're if you're 255 00:16:43.300 --> 00:16:46.740 going in there for kind of wanting to be considered for a promotion that 256 00:16:46.740 --> 00:16:50.400 might be in the organization on they have been looking for an external hire. 257 00:16:50.410 --> 00:16:53.900 Or if you realize that like you want to go in and have ah, compensation 258 00:16:53.900 --> 00:16:57.170 conversation about a raise, you need to create your narrative, make sure you 259 00:16:57.170 --> 00:17:02.300 have your past performance in there. You understand market trends, and it 260 00:17:02.300 --> 00:17:05.800 depends on who you report to. A swell. If you're a marketer reporting into 261 00:17:05.800 --> 00:17:10.900 like a C R O, I would have like a cat to LTV ratio built out based upon, like 262 00:17:10.900 --> 00:17:14.500 where you're going to put the increase in your salary that you're expecting, 263 00:17:14.510 --> 00:17:19.040 how that's gonna be felt across the whore organization. Why this is like it 264 00:17:19.040 --> 00:17:22.380 financially makes sense to give you this race not only why you deserve it, 265 00:17:22.380 --> 00:17:26.430 but why this is actually not gonna that create any negative impact on the 266 00:17:26.430 --> 00:17:30.730 organization or additional burden to the organization. That's what that's 267 00:17:30.730 --> 00:17:33.570 where I would start and then also that goes with just, like know your audience 268 00:17:33.570 --> 00:17:37.550 and then make sure that, like you know, that you understand their perspective 269 00:17:37.550 --> 00:17:41.000 and that their narrative it might be might be different from yours and be 270 00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:45.120 open minded toe having that you've been living on one story tracks and when 271 00:17:45.120 --> 00:17:47.660 you've been working there and they might be living on another one, you 272 00:17:47.660 --> 00:17:51.510 know, and so be prepared for some feedback based on that. And then I 273 00:17:51.510 --> 00:17:54.930 would say, Let them know you wanna have that conversation. Just don't walk into 274 00:17:54.930 --> 00:17:58.360 your wonder one and your one on one with that. That's kind of where you go 275 00:17:58.360 --> 00:18:01.140 to that point of, like, you know, notifying them because, like, that's 276 00:18:01.150 --> 00:18:05.020 you don't wanna walk in and then you just having a conversation conversation 277 00:18:05.020 --> 00:18:09.290 like Don't ambush them. Put that in your agenda. Yeah, I love that. I 278 00:18:09.300 --> 00:18:13.610 really like what you're saying there about building the financial case and 279 00:18:13.610 --> 00:18:17.450 showing that, you know, because there's always this tension right. I saw Mark A 280 00:18:17.450 --> 00:18:22.220 Smith post about this, about how he's always trying to make sure that he is 281 00:18:22.220 --> 00:18:26.620 paying everyone the most that he possibly can, so that if they're asking 282 00:18:26.620 --> 00:18:30.970 for a raise that kind of hasn't already been talked about, he's like, Well, we 283 00:18:30.970 --> 00:18:34.700 don't need to like, negotiate and I don't need to see if I can more because 284 00:18:34.710 --> 00:18:39.400 I've already just made that decision. And so it's interesting. Thio. Think 285 00:18:39.400 --> 00:18:43.310 about Can can you actually do that? There's some sparked a really good 286 00:18:43.310 --> 00:18:48.020 conversation on LinkedIn, but your boss is not only looking at, do you deserve 287 00:18:48.020 --> 00:18:52.740 a raise but doesn't make sense for the business? Is it feasible and doesn't 288 00:18:52.740 --> 00:18:56.540 make sense from a business perspective? And so I think your example there of 289 00:18:56.550 --> 00:19:02.540 showing literally as a market or how a a raise or a promotion would affect the 290 00:19:02.550 --> 00:19:06.850 impact of marketing. And that capped LTV ratio that is so important for 291 00:19:06.860 --> 00:19:11.190 every marketing function really shows that you've got a level of business 292 00:19:11.190 --> 00:19:16.080 acumen that you're not just saying, Hey, I deserve this right? And that's not to 293 00:19:16.080 --> 00:19:20.150 say that that's not important. But there's a bigger story going on here 294 00:19:20.150 --> 00:19:24.320 with marketings impact on the business and the business overall. And if you 295 00:19:24.320 --> 00:19:28.530 show that you have that acumen, then you're going to be taken that much more 296 00:19:28.530 --> 00:19:32.420 seriously. So I like that. I also like not ambushing them. That's that's a 297 00:19:32.420 --> 00:19:35.880 great point as well. Can A. If anybody is listening to this and they really 298 00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:40.020 like, you know, this framework of figuring out their career path and 299 00:19:40.020 --> 00:19:44.410 taking ownership over it, starting with introspection, then going to assessing 300 00:19:44.410 --> 00:19:48.640 the situation and then three, figuring out what conversations they need to 301 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:52.630 have it and having those. If there's one thing you want them to take away 302 00:19:52.630 --> 00:19:57.120 from this conversation, what do you think that would be? Yes. So having the 303 00:19:57.130 --> 00:20:00.830 the introspection and trying to figure out your career path? Nothing. Sentence 304 00:20:00.830 --> 00:20:03.780 Stone. I think you mentioned that at the beginning, right? Be comfortable 305 00:20:03.780 --> 00:20:07.510 with, like that path could change and it's okay if it does, but you're never 306 00:20:07.510 --> 00:20:11.190 gonna get where you're going. If you don't have a like path to get there and 307 00:20:11.190 --> 00:20:14.410 then, you know, be agile, flexible list road changes. I think a lot of us no 308 00:20:14.410 --> 00:20:17.790 one like the work environment we live in, is that things change, and that's 309 00:20:17.790 --> 00:20:22.260 the constant being able to kind of roll with it, putting enough of your effort 310 00:20:22.270 --> 00:20:25.800 in your work into it to kind of get the outcomes that you want. And then when 311 00:20:25.800 --> 00:20:30.200 it comes to the like talking with your boss and having difficult conversations, 312 00:20:30.210 --> 00:20:35.810 I would say own the conversation. I've had some people that have had salary 313 00:20:35.810 --> 00:20:40.010 negotiation conversations with me, and they've either, like, saved it for the 314 00:20:40.010 --> 00:20:42.720 end of our meeting. And now it's not the focus point. And they're they're 315 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:46.560 rambling on or, you know, like making the first agenda as you're going to a 316 00:20:46.560 --> 00:20:51.520 meeting, be concise, don't ramble, own it and go through your narrative and be 317 00:20:51.520 --> 00:20:57.140 okay with silence. Yes, yes, that's so good. I love that. Be okay with silence 318 00:20:57.150 --> 00:21:01.080 because, you know, you're gonna want to just fill that silence with well, and 319 00:21:01.080 --> 00:21:04.460 this and this and this and you're not going to give them time to process, to 320 00:21:04.460 --> 00:21:08.850 think, to share more with you, which is gonna be valuable for you to understand. 321 00:21:08.860 --> 00:21:12.370 And my wife and I were just talking about this. I think it's a Mark Twain 322 00:21:12.370 --> 00:21:16.710 quote. Originally, eat the frog, meaning, get the thing out of the way 323 00:21:16.710 --> 00:21:19.890 that you know, you need to get done that you dread the most, right at the 324 00:21:19.890 --> 00:21:22.880 beginning. Put it at the top of the agenda. Don't push it off. Don't 325 00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:26.510 procrastinate and trying to squeeze it in later because then everybody feels 326 00:21:26.510 --> 00:21:29.750 guilty. I'm sorry We ran out of time on the career conversation, and then 327 00:21:29.760 --> 00:21:32.430 you're left wondering. Did they cut that off? Did they really have more 328 00:21:32.430 --> 00:21:36.300 time? Just starting it at the beginning is going to set the tone for you. And 329 00:21:36.300 --> 00:21:41.050 it's also gonna avoid some of that awkwardness, tension and assumptions if 330 00:21:41.050 --> 00:21:44.180 you leave it to the end and And don't really get to have enough time for it. 331 00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:48.850 Exactly. Exactly. And then my last thing I think that I would just add to 332 00:21:48.850 --> 00:21:53.070 that is Don't don't make it personal, you know it's not. And that's the 333 00:21:53.070 --> 00:21:56.610 hardest thing I think for us. We all take pride in our work and what we dio. 334 00:21:56.620 --> 00:21:59.480 But at the end of the day of a lot of these things are personal. And as hard 335 00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:06.340 as it is to take up many of these many of these things, toe heart don't. Yeah, 336 00:22:06.350 --> 00:22:09.890 I love it. Yeah, Good stuff. Well, Hannah, this has been fantastic. Thank 337 00:22:09.890 --> 00:22:12.750 you for joining me on the show today. If anybody listening to this would like 338 00:22:12.750 --> 00:22:16.540 to stay connected with you, what's the best way for them to do that? LinkedIn. 339 00:22:16.550 --> 00:22:20.790 I'm on it. There's always a tap open of plankton. So, yeah, find me by my name, 340 00:22:20.790 --> 00:22:24.380 can a man's I would love to connect. Awesome. Hanna, Thank you so much. This 341 00:22:24.380 --> 00:22:26.670 has been a really fun conversation. Thank you. 342 00:22:28.940 --> 00:22:33.150 And sweet fish were on a mission to create the most helpful content on the 343 00:22:33.150 --> 00:22:37.720 Internet for every job, function and industry on the planet. For the B two B 344 00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:41.760 marketing industry, this show is how we're executing on that mission. If you 345 00:22:41.760 --> 00:22:45.240 know a marketing leader, that would be an awesome guest for this podcast. 346 00:22:45.250 --> 00:22:48.800 Shoot me a text message. Don't call me because I don't answer unknown numbers, 347 00:22:48.810 --> 00:22:55.540 but text me at 4074903328 Just shoot me. Their name may be a link to their 348 00:22:55.540 --> 00:22:59.360 linked in profile, and I'd love to check him out to see if we can get them 349 00:22:59.360 --> 00:23:01.060 on the show. Thanks a lot