Transcript
WEBVTT
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welcome back to be to be growth on
Logan Lyles with sweet fish media. I'm
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joined today by Hannah Man's She's the
director of a B. M Over at directive.
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Hannah. Welcome to the show. How you
doing today? I'm doing great. Thanks so
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much for having me. Absolutely. We have
to know with most of our guests. Are
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you Team Coker, Team Pepsi? I really
got to know 100% team coke. Okay. We've
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only got a few team team Pepsi, folks,
and I'm surprised here. A sweet fish.
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I'm surprised James hasn't just fired
them. It's like grounds for dismissal
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around here. James is just so adamant
against Pepsi. For whatever reason I
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could I could drink either. But I'm
definitely team coke, if you ask me. So
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good to know where your allegiances lie.
Hannah, we're gonna be talking about
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more than soft drinks today. We're
gonna be talking about career path
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thing and really mapping your journey
for your career, especially within
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marketing. And as you and I were
chatting, I would love for you to share
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with listeners a little bit about your
recent journey and why this has become
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really a point of passion for you
personally lately. Sure, sure. So a
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couple of weeks ago, I'm a member of
the Revenue Collective. In a couple of
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weeks ago, during one of our marketing
meetings, one of the members waas
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talking to the group and wanting advice
for, you know, connecting and talking
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with his manager about his career
development at his organization and
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myself and another colleague of mine.
Another member was really harping on
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trying to understand, like, what did he
want? You know, And it was really
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interesting to me how difficult that
question is to answer or, you know, and
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not and not really having that as your
starting point when you're thinking
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about you know, your next career move
or your your career path. Eso That's
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what definitely got me, like really
kind of like started on realizing how
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important it was to really talk about
this. Yeah, absolutely. This is, Ah,
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hot topic for us here at Sweet Fish
because it's actually part of our
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mission here. We see part of what we're
doing is inspiring. People toe own
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their careers because we know that the
podcast that we produce, whether that's
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for marketing or HR, professionals or
manufacturing professionals that if we
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can produce content, that helps them
see where they wanna go, who they wanna
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learn from and get better in their
careers. They could take ownership of
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their career and then really start to
decide where they want to go and and
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really head there. So would you say
that kind of career path thing as a
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term? Maybe the way to think about it
is I'm I'm figuring out the path. And
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now I'm headed down a definitive path
rather than I'm just kind of figuring
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out whatever the next step is. Whatever
kind of comes my way exactly, like
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really taking ownership of your own
journey, right? Not really. Just
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keeping it up to chance or being afraid
to almost have those conversations and
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ask, Where do you stand or ask, Where
do you find yourself? And then I think
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what the value that you guys will bring
with the podcast is kind of helping
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people because you don't know what you
don't know, right? So how are you even
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starting to, like, really these things
that might not even be circulating? And
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I might even be a thought that you're
having until you're able to get into
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the heads of other people's minds, see
where they're at, maybe really help you
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as you're trying to, you know, map out
whatever type of professional journey
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someone might be embarking on, whether
that be with their career ownership,
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with their channel ownership, with
their departmental ownership, whatever
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they have you. Yeah. So, Hannah, you've
started to develop a framework to help
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people think about how do they map out
their career path or start on this
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journey of career Path thing as it is,
what are some of the major steps? If
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you can kind of outline some of the
steps in the framework and then let's
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kind of break down each one in turn. So
maybe speak to kind of the major steps
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and then we can dive into where people
start from there. Sure. So I think the
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first place always start is kind of
introspection. And that self evaluation
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kind of asking that question. What? Hey,
what do I want? You know? And then from
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there, are, you know, are you in a
place for that to happen? Is are you is
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like it's a company or at the
organization you're in, you know? Is is
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what you want. Is it feasible? And then
if it is, you don't talk to your boss.
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You know, even I would even advocate.
Maybe if it isn't Talk to your boss.
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How you do that, of course, is very
different. But talk to your supervisor.
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And if it is the right place, you know,
having a having a set conversation
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around the milestones and you know,
what does that look like to get you
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there? And if it's not the evaluation
process kind of thing, you know, like
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when you're looking at the market and
you're looking at you know what the
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organizations like. How do you ensure
that you're setting yourself up for
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success when picking your next step?
Yeah. So it starts with introspection.
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Step number two would be kind of
assessing the broader situation so that
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introspective is about Where do I want
to go, then? Once you're clear on that,
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determining where am I now and then how
does that relate to where I want to go?
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And then that kicks off maybe an
initial conversation with your manager
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or your boss, whoever whoever that is
and then you can take appropriate next
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steps from there. As you start that
phase one, that internal introspection
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as you think about that, what are some
good questions that you think folks
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should be asking themselves? Obviously,
start with. What do I want? That's a
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really great kind of open ended
questions. But for someone who kind of
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get stuck on that question, do you have
some other questions or things that
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they could do to try to figure out
where to start with that initial step?
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Yes. So I think that the first really
important thing so identify is is you
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know, do you want to be in a startup or
a matured environment, right? And kind
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of having that conversation with
yourself? Do I like to be a big fish in
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a little pond? And if you like to be a
big fish in a little pond, early stage
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startups in the start up environment is
a great place to be your and also from
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a scale perspective, right, you're
gonna be able to wear multiple hats.
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You're going to get to your hands into
everything. You get to kind of have
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that you know, that, really that that
impact across the whole organization to
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kind of defining like, Is that what I
want? Do I want to be, you know, a jack
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of all trades and really have a kind of
an experience in different areas of
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Maybe if we're talking specifically
about marketing, do I want to go and to
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understand the content, demand gen You
know, revenue marketing, integrated
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marketing, whatever, have you whatever
that looks like. You know, start ups, a
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really great environments to do that.
And then once you start getting into
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larger organizations, it comes, you
know, more down to you to scope. And
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you get to really become an expert in
one area of your craft. So that's where
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you really double down. And maybe
you're going to be, you know, be a
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really fantastic brand marketer, and
you're gonna be develop your expertise
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there, Or maybe it's going to be
digital demand, Gen. And where you
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really begin to master all the
different. You know, all the different
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advertising platforms, and I have a
robust understanding of S e o. And then,
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you know, in in I would argue in most
positions besides marketing, I do think
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in marketing you do have to have, like
you do have to have a level of
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understanding across all the different
disciplines. But scope is where the
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money is that right? People are gonna
pay top dollar for experts, even when
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you're coming into, like, start ups
that are starting to scale after Siri's
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be there Now we're gonna have funding
to start taking are probably seriously,
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more realistically, you're gonna start
to have money to start taking on
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experts to run departments. You might
have been there since the beginning,
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but now you no longer have the skill
set, right? So, you know, kind of
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having those kind of conversations with
yourself, I think, is a really great
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place to start. I like how you break
down. Do I wanna have kind of that
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scaled impact, which can mean I get to
do a lot of different things. I get toe
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have impact in a lot of different areas.
Maybe I won't make it much, though. And
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if I want to narrow and become an
expert, maybe I can make mawr. But that
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looks different and not that money is
the only factor for anyone, right? And
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I think that's what this initial phase
of introspection is all about our
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director of audience growth. And
Sanchez just put out Ah, post on
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LinkedIn the other day. You might have
to scroll a bit in his feet because he
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posts, like three times a day is just a
machine. But it was about maybe we
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could link to it in the show notes. It
was basically about your marketing
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career and what is more valuable, a
generalist versus a specialist, and how
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do they play off of each other? Do you
have to be a generalist first before
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you can really become a specialist
because you don't know what you need to
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specialize in or what you want to be
specialized in or what you would do
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well specialized in? I think those are
all really good questions for people to
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ask themselves and to think about. And
if your aim is to go for that scope and
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to become a great brand marketing CMO
one day, then how do you get there?
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Maybe there are times where scale in a
smaller startup can help you get there,
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so I think that this initial phase is
really important. Say you've kind of
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figured this out. You kind of think
where you know where you wanna go. Not
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that that is set in stone and etched on
a tablet somewhere. But you kind of
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have a working idea. You have a working
path, and that might change. But then
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the next step of assessing your
situation, what are some of the
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questions you recommend people ask
themselves or ask their peers as they
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look at? Am I in a situation that is
close to where I wanna go or is setting
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me up to take the next step toe where I
want to go? Yeah, And then that's where
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you've already kind of probably, you
know, if your visual I like to write
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things out, I'd like to see it. You've
made your list. Now you're starting to
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look at things. And then we need to say,
like, you know, I might in a place
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where I can do this. And then that's
where you start to compare and contrast.
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I think one really interesting thing to
bring up for marketers. If if you're in
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a serious days or serious B company,
the resource is probably aren't there
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for you to do a whole lot you better be
ready. Thio get really creative and you
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could have a lot of really awesome
ideas. But you have to be comfortable.
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I think a lot of might not be able to
come to fruition. So you might not be
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really be able to get that that
experience that you're looking for,
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just simply do the fact of a budget
constraint, you know? So that might be
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something important to think about what
we're thinking. I do want to make an
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impact. But now, looking at the
organization to see, you know, or even
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those conversations you would maybe
have with a founder about how do they
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value marketing? Can you see that? Your
that they're invested, that they see
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the value? Or do you foresee yourself
having an uphill battle here? You know,
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I'm trying to fight for everything that
you need. That's where I think the next
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you just start kind of doing that
Compare contrast where you currently
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find yourself at toe, understand? Can I
make Can I make what I want happen here?
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I think ideally we would all love that
right. That's what that would be the
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dream. If we're somewhere, you're
probably really happy. And you want to
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know how can I start Thio, excel in my
career? Make a home for me here? Yeah,
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absolutely. So let's say you've
assessed the situation and you need to
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start having those conversations with
folks either because you've realized,
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Hey, I am in a really good spot. This
is gonna help me get to where I wanna
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go or you realized Oh, no, I think I'm
not in the right spot. In either of
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those situations. Can you kind of
compare and contrast the way that you
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wanna approach those conversations with
your superiors, depending on what you
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find out in that phase one of
introspection and that phase two of
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assessing the situation that you're in?
Yeah, of course, your manager can play
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a huge role in your success at an
organization, right? So I think the
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first and foremost the things that kind
of realizes you need to establish the
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relationship that you want because you
know, e just would never assume that
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because you report to somebody that, um,
they have time to manage you that they
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want to manage you. Or that they even
know how to manage you. So that's like
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it's a really great starting place to
say, like, how can I establish that
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relationship that that I want with them
and not to get too off topic? But I
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find there's a couple of ways to do
that. You know, trust is always the
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most important. Make sure that you guys
have the trust and it goes both ways.
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You need to be able to trust them, but
they need to also be able to trust you
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and understanding what their bottom
line is. And you make their life easier
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when you when you're able to kind of
take things off their plate or truly
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understand what they're being measured
for and what's important to them.
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That's how you become invaluable and
then understanding their strengths and
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weaknesses and being able to kind of
close the gap there and really leverage
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and learn from their strengths. S So
that's, you know, kind of talking with
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your boss, but making sure that you,
before talking with them, that you have
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that relationship where you can have
this conversation, you know, and just,
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you know, and then kind of go to them
and kind of laid out for them you know,
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at the end of the day, they want to see
you be successful. It's just probably
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not their top priority. They're also
responsible for quite a lot. So, um,
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coming to the table once you've
identified is a much more powerful
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place than if you were just going like,
hey, what does life look like here for
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me? What do we got going on? I need to
know. I don't know. But then, you know,
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when they come back to you, what do you
want? And you're like, Oh, I don't know,
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right? Yeah. Yeah. It comes back to
that conversation that you were talking
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about in the community at the top of
the episode. So, Hannah, any advice for
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folks who say Okay, I know where I
wanna go. I realized that I don't know
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if I'm in the right situation and I
need to have this conversation with my
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boss, but maybe I need to establish a
little bit more relationship. We don't
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have that now. Do you have any advice
on how to establish that trust and to
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make the turn to starting that
conversation any any dues? And Don's
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for folks that air in that specific
situation. Sure, I think the best. You
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know, most of us will have one on ones
with our manager. I am a firm believer.
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You get you set the agenda. It's your
meeting there giving you their time. Go
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into meeting like and let them know the
day before, um, set out the agenda
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outlining everything that you want to
talk about. Everything that you have on
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there on your on your plate right now
that you want to get their input on. I
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know that most time I've understood
that like my managers have like, have
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been like if they're a reader, so they
want to read it, they need to see it
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before them so they can digest it. And
so I've always done that the day before,
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it's really just helped set the tone
and, uh, for a meeting, but also the
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fact that, like they're not having to
come to me and asked me what's going on,
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you know what I mean? I'm providing
them with the with the insights that
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they need before they can even ask,
right? So that would be my next thing
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is like beaten to the punch. They
proactively answer questions that you
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know that they're gonna have on, you
know, always kind of have a If you have
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problems, have that solution ready
might not be the right solution. But,
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like, ask yourself, what would they dio
and make sure that you like you have At
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least you're trying to be that so that
that that problem solver and not that
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person that's just always bringing up,
you know the problem. Those would be
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some, I think advice I would give. And
then when you get feedback immediately,
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apply it right. And if they can't see
that report on it, just keeping those
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lines of communication really open.
Yeah, there's a really great point I'm
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taking notes here is you're talking
Hannah. And I think we've got, you know,
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four tips for making your one on ones
more effective for you one developing
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agenda. Send that to your boss ahead of
time. Be proactive not only in sending
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the agenda, but also anticipating what
questions they have, what they're gonna
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want updates on and add that to the
agenda. Then number three was, you know,
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offer solutions. It doesn't mean you
have to have the perfect solution, but
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at least have a 1.0 version and say,
Hey, I have this problem. This is the
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first idea I had to potentially solve
it. Do you think that's the right path?
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Do you have any advice? Do you think
I'm heading in the wrong direction
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there? It often elicits a very
emotional response when you tell
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someone. Hey, Hannah, do you think I'm
doing something wrong here? And they
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might say, Oh, no, no, no. But then
they would say. But I would do this in
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this a little bit differently, right?
It just kind of triggers them to
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respond and then make sure that you're
applying feedback. I think that's one
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of the tactical things. You know what
you were saying about building trust
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with your manager so that you can have
some tougher conversations which I want
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to get to you on in just a second about
some of those tougher conversations,
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especially around comp in those sorts
of things. But I think we understand
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that, right? I need to make sure my
manager, trust me, I need to trust them
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that, but taking the feedback they've
given you, making sure that you apply
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it and making sure that you know that,
that they can see the impact of that.
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That's just a way over time to build
trust with them because they've they've
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taken time to give you feedback, and
you show that you're gonna honor that
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time and that input from their
leadership and actually do something
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with it. So let's jump from there into.
Maybe there is a tougher conversation
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where you realize either based on
compensation or based on, you know,
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upward mobility and even the
opportunity for a promotion or a
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different sort of roll. It just isn't
there or you're not sure if it's there,
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but you wanna ask that question? But
you don't want to just come off of,
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Well, when am I going to get a raise?
Or when am I going to get a promotion?
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Because that's not the way that you
wanna ask that. So for someone that
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says, Yeah, I realize that, but I'm not
really quite sure how I should word it,
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how I should bring up those tougher
conversations. What would you say there?
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Yes, so I would say first things first.
You have to create your narrative
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that's that's so important you're
telling a story when you're if you're
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going in there for kind of wanting to
be considered for a promotion that
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might be in the organization on they
have been looking for an external hire.
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Or if you realize that like you want to
go in and have ah, compensation
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conversation about a raise, you need to
create your narrative, make sure you
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have your past performance in there.
You understand market trends, and it
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depends on who you report to. A swell.
If you're a marketer reporting into
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like a C R O, I would have like a cat
to LTV ratio built out based upon, like
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where you're going to put the increase
in your salary that you're expecting,
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how that's gonna be felt across the
whore organization. Why this is like it
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financially makes sense to give you
this race not only why you deserve it,
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but why this is actually not gonna that
create any negative impact on the
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organization or additional burden to
the organization. That's what that's
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where I would start and then also that
goes with just, like know your audience
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and then make sure that, like you know,
that you understand their perspective
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and that their narrative it might be
might be different from yours and be
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open minded toe having that you've been
living on one story tracks and when
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you've been working there and they
might be living on another one, you
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know, and so be prepared for some
feedback based on that. And then I
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would say, Let them know you wanna have
that conversation. Just don't walk into
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your wonder one and your one on one
with that. That's kind of where you go
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to that point of, like, you know,
notifying them because, like, that's
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you don't wanna walk in and then you
just having a conversation conversation
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like Don't ambush them. Put that in
your agenda. Yeah, I love that. I
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really like what you're saying there
about building the financial case and
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showing that, you know, because there's
always this tension right. I saw Mark A
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Smith post about this, about how he's
always trying to make sure that he is
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paying everyone the most that he
possibly can, so that if they're asking
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for a raise that kind of hasn't already
been talked about, he's like, Well, we
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don't need to like, negotiate and I
don't need to see if I can more because
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I've already just made that decision.
And so it's interesting. Thio. Think
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about Can can you actually do that?
There's some sparked a really good
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conversation on LinkedIn, but your boss
is not only looking at, do you deserve
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a raise but doesn't make sense for the
business? Is it feasible and doesn't
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make sense from a business perspective?
And so I think your example there of
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showing literally as a market or how a
a raise or a promotion would affect the
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impact of marketing. And that capped
LTV ratio that is so important for
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every marketing function really shows
that you've got a level of business
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acumen that you're not just saying, Hey,
I deserve this right? And that's not to
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say that that's not important. But
there's a bigger story going on here
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with marketings impact on the business
and the business overall. And if you
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show that you have that acumen, then
you're going to be taken that much more
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seriously. So I like that. I also like
not ambushing them. That's that's a
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great point as well. Can A. If anybody
is listening to this and they really
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like, you know, this framework of
figuring out their career path and
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taking ownership over it, starting with
introspection, then going to assessing
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the situation and then three, figuring
out what conversations they need to
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have it and having those. If there's
one thing you want them to take away
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from this conversation, what do you
think that would be? Yes. So having the
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the introspection and trying to figure
out your career path? Nothing. Sentence
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Stone. I think you mentioned that at
the beginning, right? Be comfortable
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with, like that path could change and
it's okay if it does, but you're never
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gonna get where you're going. If you
don't have a like path to get there and
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then, you know, be agile, flexible list
road changes. I think a lot of us no
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one like the work environment we live
in, is that things change, and that's
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the constant being able to kind of roll
with it, putting enough of your effort
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in your work into it to kind of get the
outcomes that you want. And then when
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it comes to the like talking with your
boss and having difficult conversations,
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I would say own the conversation. I've
had some people that have had salary
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negotiation conversations with me, and
they've either, like, saved it for the
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end of our meeting. And now it's not
the focus point. And they're they're
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rambling on or, you know, like making
the first agenda as you're going to a
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meeting, be concise, don't ramble, own
it and go through your narrative and be
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okay with silence. Yes, yes, that's so
good. I love that. Be okay with silence
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because, you know, you're gonna want to
just fill that silence with well, and
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this and this and this and you're not
going to give them time to process, to
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think, to share more with you, which is
gonna be valuable for you to understand.
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And my wife and I were just talking
about this. I think it's a Mark Twain
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quote. Originally, eat the frog,
meaning, get the thing out of the way
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that you know, you need to get done
that you dread the most, right at the
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beginning. Put it at the top of the
agenda. Don't push it off. Don't
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procrastinate and trying to squeeze it
in later because then everybody feels
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guilty. I'm sorry We ran out of time on
the career conversation, and then
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you're left wondering. Did they cut
that off? Did they really have more
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time? Just starting it at the beginning
is going to set the tone for you. And
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it's also gonna avoid some of that
awkwardness, tension and assumptions if
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you leave it to the end and And don't
really get to have enough time for it.
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Exactly. Exactly. And then my last
thing I think that I would just add to
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that is Don't don't make it personal,
you know it's not. And that's the
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hardest thing I think for us. We all
take pride in our work and what we dio.
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But at the end of the day of a lot of
these things are personal. And as hard
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as it is to take up many of these many
of these things, toe heart don't. Yeah,
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I love it. Yeah, Good stuff. Well,
Hannah, this has been fantastic. Thank
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you for joining me on the show today.
If anybody listening to this would like
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to stay connected with you, what's the
best way for them to do that? LinkedIn.
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I'm on it. There's always a tap open of
plankton. So, yeah, find me by my name,
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00:22:20.790 --> 00:22:24.380
can a man's I would love to connect.
Awesome. Hanna, Thank you so much. This
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has been a really fun conversation.
Thank you.
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And sweet fish were on a mission to
create the most helpful content on the
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Internet for every job, function and
industry on the planet. For the B two B
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00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:41.760
marketing industry, this show is how
we're executing on that mission. If you
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know a marketing leader, that would be
an awesome guest for this podcast.
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00:22:45.250 --> 00:22:48.800
Shoot me a text message. Don't call me
because I don't answer unknown numbers,
347
00:22:48.810 --> 00:22:55.540
but text me at 4074903328 Just shoot me.
Their name may be a link to their
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00:22:55.540 --> 00:22:59.360
linked in profile, and I'd love to
check him out to see if we can get them
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on the show. Thanks a lot