3 CX Changes You Have to Make in a Service-Based Business

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.440 --> 00:00:08.900 welcome back to be to be growth. I'm Logan Lyles with sweet fish media. I'm 2 00:00:08.900 --> 00:00:12.700 joined today by Meghan Bowen. She's a repeat guest on the show. If you're not 3 00:00:12.700 --> 00:00:16.570 following her on LinkedIn and aren't familiar, Meghan is the chief customer 4 00:00:16.570 --> 00:00:19.920 officer over at Refined Labs. They're doing some great stuff in the B two b 5 00:00:19.920 --> 00:00:23.560 marketing space, and I am pumped toe. Have her back on the show again today. 6 00:00:23.560 --> 00:00:27.190 Meghan, how you doing? I am doing great today, Logan. Thanks so much for having 7 00:00:27.190 --> 00:00:31.090 me back excited toe. Dig into another great conversation with you. You and I 8 00:00:31.100 --> 00:00:33.940 always have great conversations. You know where we're recording this right 9 00:00:33.940 --> 00:00:38.160 on the heels of Thanksgiving. Anything fun or interesting or surprising this 10 00:00:38.160 --> 00:00:42.590 year with pandemic Thanksgiving or fun traditions you were able to still carry 11 00:00:42.590 --> 00:00:47.490 through with Thanksgiving is actually my favorite holiday because cooking is 12 00:00:47.490 --> 00:00:52.870 my favorite personal passion and hobby. One day I will be a contestant on the 13 00:00:52.870 --> 00:00:58.010 show, chopped just wait and see. So, luckily, I was able to actually still 14 00:00:58.010 --> 00:01:02.750 spend two full days in the kitchen the day before and day of baking and 15 00:01:02.750 --> 00:01:06.970 cooking a nice big meal. We usually only celebrate with my sister in law. 16 00:01:06.980 --> 00:01:10.600 And so we were able to make it happen with just three of us on Thanksgiving 17 00:01:10.600 --> 00:01:16.140 and it was wonderful. Made my green bean casserole and my apple pie and all 18 00:01:16.140 --> 00:01:19.750 that good stuff. So despite the pandemic, it was a great holiday. How 19 00:01:19.750 --> 00:01:24.380 about you? Green bean casserole is on the money for me, you know, Ah, lot of 20 00:01:24.380 --> 00:01:27.330 people on our team. Or like it's not Thanksgiving without Mac and cheese. 21 00:01:27.340 --> 00:01:31.620 I'm on the green bean casserole. I actually, I've always said like I 22 00:01:31.620 --> 00:01:35.350 really enjoy cooking and then my wife is like, Well, why don't you do it more? 23 00:01:35.340 --> 00:01:39.430 But that's a whole other conversation, but I I actually really enjoyed it. I 24 00:01:39.430 --> 00:01:43.020 think I'm going to take over the turkey for Christmas. We'll have to check in 25 00:01:43.020 --> 00:01:46.910 and see how that goes, because it it will be my first time actually owning 26 00:01:46.910 --> 00:01:51.160 that fully, and I might have to get some tips from you. So besides, 27 00:01:51.170 --> 00:01:56.060 somewhat being aspiring chefs you much more than me, something you and I both 28 00:01:56.060 --> 00:02:00.260 have in common with my recent transition to VP of customer experience. 29 00:02:00.260 --> 00:02:04.340 Here at Sweet Fish, I am very much focused on customer success and the 30 00:02:04.340 --> 00:02:09.060 post sale journey off our customers and enabling them for success, something 31 00:02:09.060 --> 00:02:12.430 that is one of the many hats you wear his chief customer officer over at 32 00:02:12.430 --> 00:02:16.940 Refined Labs and something that we have in common is looking together in each 33 00:02:16.940 --> 00:02:20.580 of our organizations at the entire customer experience. How do we optimize 34 00:02:20.580 --> 00:02:23.890 that? How do we make sure that we're not only growing, but we're retaining 35 00:02:23.890 --> 00:02:27.670 revenue and getting better and better at our service? And we also both have 36 00:02:27.640 --> 00:02:31.160 service based businesses. You guys with the marketing agency at Refined Labs, 37 00:02:31.160 --> 00:02:34.970 our podcast agency here. It's sweet fish, and you have a lot of experience 38 00:02:34.980 --> 00:02:41.340 in SAS, and a lot of our listeners are marketers or sales or CS folks in the 39 00:02:41.340 --> 00:02:44.950 tech space. So today we're gonna have a conversation about specifically 40 00:02:44.950 --> 00:02:49.570 customer success within service based businesses. So let's kick it off with 41 00:02:49.540 --> 00:02:54.440 what do you think are some of the main differences between customer successor 42 00:02:54.440 --> 00:02:59.230 customer experience in a service based business, versus one that is a product 43 00:02:59.230 --> 00:03:03.620 based business of some form or fashion? Yeah, it's a really this is gonna be a 44 00:03:03.620 --> 00:03:07.540 good topic to get into and I've spent, you know, 15 years of my career, a 45 00:03:07.540 --> 00:03:12.220 different sort of tech based and or SAS companies, some transactional 46 00:03:12.220 --> 00:03:16.490 marketplaces thrown into the mix. But always having some type of tech product 47 00:03:16.500 --> 00:03:22.450 and customer success. And working with customers in that world is different, 48 00:03:22.440 --> 00:03:25.280 then customer success in a services business. So some of the key 49 00:03:25.280 --> 00:03:30.130 differences that immediately come to mind are in a B two b SAS company. 50 00:03:30.140 --> 00:03:34.220 There is some type of product and the name of the game and customer success 51 00:03:34.220 --> 00:03:41.200 is how do I implement on board and work with my customer to get them to adopt 52 00:03:41.210 --> 00:03:47.200 this tool. This product and a lot of the challenges that arise, are around 53 00:03:47.200 --> 00:03:51.220 ensuring successful adoption of that technology, um, in a way that's 54 00:03:51.220 --> 00:03:55.230 actually driving business outcomes and results for the customer, which is why 55 00:03:55.230 --> 00:03:59.000 they decided, toe, you know, work with you and purchase your product. On the 56 00:03:59.000 --> 00:04:04.270 services side, the product is the person. The product is the human right. 57 00:04:04.270 --> 00:04:08.640 It's the knowledge, the expertise, the strategy that they bring to the table. 58 00:04:08.650 --> 00:04:14.110 And so when you think about on boarding and retention and how you can deliver 59 00:04:14.110 --> 00:04:18.240 that value, there's no product or technology in the mix. There's just 60 00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:22.390 that human component. And despite the fact that different products you know 61 00:04:22.390 --> 00:04:26.750 can have bugs or issues or missing features, there's a level of 62 00:04:26.760 --> 00:04:31.170 dependability or control in technology that just doesn't exist with when 63 00:04:31.170 --> 00:04:34.870 you're dealing with people in humans. And so when you think about playbooks 64 00:04:34.870 --> 00:04:40.050 and processes, there are ways that you can implement those in a B two B Texas 65 00:04:40.050 --> 00:04:44.700 company with a little bit more reliability and consistency. But with 66 00:04:44.700 --> 00:04:49.180 humans, you have to just understand that you can on Lee, create guard rails 67 00:04:49.180 --> 00:04:54.600 and control. I'm using my finger quotes control humans like Onley so much right? 68 00:04:54.600 --> 00:04:57.820 Like ultimately, they're going to do what they're doing. So you have tow. 69 00:04:57.830 --> 00:05:01.560 You have to acknowledge that reality because it's gonna for you to make 70 00:05:01.560 --> 00:05:04.530 different types of decisions, depending on what you're thinking about about 71 00:05:04.530 --> 00:05:12.400 doing. I think another aspect is really capacity and scale, right In a B two B 72 00:05:12.400 --> 00:05:16.960 tech company, CSM is often able to manage, you know it will vary depending 73 00:05:16.960 --> 00:05:21.730 upon the company, but you know between 20 up to hundreds of accounts, 74 00:05:21.730 --> 00:05:25.170 potentially depending on the level of support that they need from a human 75 00:05:25.180 --> 00:05:29.890 based on what the product or service is doing for them. In a services based 76 00:05:29.890 --> 00:05:34.450 business like that doesn't work right. You're one person only has so much time 77 00:05:34.450 --> 00:05:39.570 in a day and can on Lee, you know, work with, ah, much smaller book of business. 78 00:05:39.580 --> 00:05:44.740 And when you think about growing the actual business itself, the people on 79 00:05:44.740 --> 00:05:48.360 your team that you're hiring, of course, is always important no matter what, but 80 00:05:48.340 --> 00:05:52.230 even more so in the services business. Because not only are they the account 81 00:05:52.230 --> 00:05:57.150 manager of the CSM, they're the actual product. They are the service. They are 82 00:05:57.150 --> 00:06:02.610 the value that the customer is getting. And so I think those key fundamental 83 00:06:02.610 --> 00:06:06.940 differences really drive. Despite the fact that I've been doing customer 84 00:06:06.940 --> 00:06:10.970 success for so long. I can't plug and play my playbooks here. I'm having to 85 00:06:10.970 --> 00:06:15.710 say, Okay, I had this experience before. This is how I did things. This is a new 86 00:06:15.710 --> 00:06:19.060 context. What are some of the things that I could take with me and what are 87 00:06:19.060 --> 00:06:22.430 some of the new ideas that I have to figure out? And so it's been a fun 88 00:06:22.430 --> 00:06:27.620 experience in trying to pull from pull from my experience of what's worked and 89 00:06:27.620 --> 00:06:31.240 then figuring out how I need to adjust accordingly to make it work in this new 90 00:06:31.240 --> 00:06:37.470 environment. So just identify with both of those the the focus on adoption 91 00:06:37.470 --> 00:06:41.340 versus human interaction and the realities of how do you measure 92 00:06:41.340 --> 00:06:45.860 capacity? What is capacity and and how do you scale? I want to dig into both 93 00:06:45.860 --> 00:06:49.960 of those. But first I have to ask you, you talked about, you know, taking some 94 00:06:49.960 --> 00:06:54.040 from your playbook, trying to implement it and then figuring out what works and 95 00:06:54.040 --> 00:06:58.140 what doesn't right? Kind of like trying a little bit of a new recipe, right to 96 00:06:58.140 --> 00:07:02.730 go back. Thio are cooking conversation. So has there been anything in the last 97 00:07:02.730 --> 00:07:07.330 little bit at Refine Labs where you're like, Oh, I need like, this is tried 98 00:07:07.330 --> 00:07:11.950 and true? I'm going to plug this in and you were surprised, like uh huh, that 99 00:07:11.950 --> 00:07:16.150 didn't work, or I really need to tweet that. Have there been any of those 100 00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:22.700 surprises so far trying to implement the playbook from SAS to services? So 101 00:07:22.710 --> 00:07:27.560 it's a good question. One of the things that typically you'll find in a B two b 102 00:07:27.560 --> 00:07:33.920 SAS Tech company is the on boarding process with a customer to get an 103 00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:39.540 initial product sort of configured, set up and up and running is usually 104 00:07:39.550 --> 00:07:44.210 extremely consistent like this. This becomes like a very black and white 105 00:07:44.220 --> 00:07:49.160 process of we know that we have to accomplish these 10 things. And if we 106 00:07:49.160 --> 00:07:53.290 accomplish these 10 things, we feel pretty good that we've set this 107 00:07:53.290 --> 00:07:57.550 customer up for success. You know, we're on a successful path for, uh, 108 00:07:57.540 --> 00:08:00.980 giving them the results that they need retention. You know, potential Upsell 109 00:08:00.990 --> 00:08:05.530 growth down the road and the steps that you take are gonna be different based 110 00:08:05.530 --> 00:08:09.230 on the company. Like the ah ha moment that you want your customer have in 111 00:08:09.230 --> 00:08:13.710 their 1st 30 60 90 days is gonna be different. But I've been reliably able 112 00:08:13.710 --> 00:08:18.670 Thio deploy sort of an on boarding playbook pretty consistently across 113 00:08:18.670 --> 00:08:22.960 five different companies with sort of those core best practices and just 114 00:08:22.940 --> 00:08:27.080 adopting it to the context of the business. When kind of coming to re 115 00:08:27.080 --> 00:08:30.900 find labs and thinking about how we're on boarding our customers, there are 116 00:08:30.900 --> 00:08:35.140 some things that we do with every single customer, but the reality is 117 00:08:35.150 --> 00:08:39.110 because of the services we're providing and because every customer we're 118 00:08:39.110 --> 00:08:42.559 working with is, you know, on a different spot in their journey and 119 00:08:42.559 --> 00:08:46.790 developing their own internal, you know, marketing plans. Mhm. We know that we 120 00:08:46.790 --> 00:08:50.820 want to cover a certain amount of things with an on boarding. But every 121 00:08:50.820 --> 00:08:54.780 customer on boarding experience that I've witnessed since I've joined has 122 00:08:54.780 --> 00:09:00.150 been different. And, you know, we take different paths and we might start with 123 00:09:00.150 --> 00:09:05.140 this type of strategy instead of that type of strategy. It really is a case 124 00:09:05.140 --> 00:09:10.940 by case, and I'm a lover of process and a lover of play books and documents and 125 00:09:10.950 --> 00:09:15.700 what's been challenging because I think I thought, you know, I feel like the 126 00:09:15.700 --> 00:09:19.800 1st 30 days the 1st 60 days like that will probably be pretty consistent, and 127 00:09:19.800 --> 00:09:23.050 then we're gonna branch off into all these different areas. But that 128 00:09:23.050 --> 00:09:26.880 branching off just happened immediately. And so what I'm trying to think through 129 00:09:26.880 --> 00:09:34.140 is how can I create some on boarding guidelines? Um, that we can all follow 130 00:09:34.140 --> 00:09:39.900 that are flexible enough to acknowledge all of the different realities that the 131 00:09:39.900 --> 00:09:44.920 team is up against, right? It's like the balance of trying to create a 132 00:09:44.920 --> 00:09:50.370 consistent service delivery experience while also allow adaptability and 133 00:09:50.370 --> 00:09:54.550 flexibility to to meet the customer where they're at still figuring it out. 134 00:09:54.840 --> 00:10:00.750 Absolutely. We've seen that so much in just, you know, our service is I kind 135 00:10:00.750 --> 00:10:04.530 of had when I was sitting directly in the sales seat for the last 2.5 years. 136 00:10:04.530 --> 00:10:07.770 I always describe our service here at Sweet Fish. You know, we're fairly 137 00:10:07.770 --> 00:10:12.360 niche. We are a B two B podcast agency. We helped launch new shows. We help 138 00:10:12.360 --> 00:10:16.870 with the ongoing production. There's kind of a variety of, you know, 139 00:10:16.870 --> 00:10:20.180 strategies that we can employ. Some of our customers are using video. Some 140 00:10:20.190 --> 00:10:23.520 aren't. Some are doing a lot more frequency than others. Some are, you 141 00:10:23.520 --> 00:10:27.310 know, it's heavily involved in their blawg strategy or not, but it's still 142 00:10:27.320 --> 00:10:33.360 fairly modular. It's not totally custom toe every situation, and even in that, 143 00:10:33.370 --> 00:10:37.240 even with those guard rails, I just identify with what you're talking about 144 00:10:37.240 --> 00:10:42.850 because right now we are planning January 1 a big transition from Trillo 145 00:10:42.840 --> 00:10:47.500 to asana, really being the backbone of project management here within sweet 146 00:10:47.500 --> 00:10:51.690 fish. And you know the first thing that we did was okay. Let's really go 147 00:10:51.690 --> 00:10:55.410 through our launch process, which is our on boarding in the 1st 30 to 60 148 00:10:55.410 --> 00:11:01.280 days. And there are some definite consistencies there. But even in that, 149 00:11:01.290 --> 00:11:06.310 we've struggled with this balance of the realities off ah, human to human 150 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:10.750 interaction in the delivery of a service versus a product. And we know 151 00:11:10.750 --> 00:11:14.690 always these things were going toe happen. So how do we You know, this 152 00:11:14.690 --> 00:11:18.980 task is two days, and it's dependent on this one, and we just line it out so 153 00:11:18.980 --> 00:11:22.280 that there's consistent service delivery and you would think it would 154 00:11:22.280 --> 00:11:27.020 be easy, but it's just not as easy as you would think, even with, you know, a 155 00:11:27.020 --> 00:11:32.590 somewhat product eyes service like ours that doesn't have as much kind of wild 156 00:11:32.590 --> 00:11:37.360 customization as another service based business. And I still recognize what 157 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:42.540 you're saying there. How have you guys kind of address that that balancing act? 158 00:11:42.550 --> 00:11:47.100 Do you guys use a sauna to kind of manage your on boarding but have kind 159 00:11:47.100 --> 00:11:51.560 of Cem date ranges instead of due date set anything that tactically you guys 160 00:11:51.560 --> 00:11:56.650 have done to manage that balance in your own on boarding? Yeah, we actually 161 00:11:56.650 --> 00:12:00.660 do use a sauna and we use it with our customers. And so, you know, for a lot 162 00:12:00.660 --> 00:12:05.010 of the sort of discrete tasks that need to be accomplished, You know, we have 163 00:12:05.010 --> 00:12:09.610 pretty good templates that encapsulate the things that happened most 164 00:12:09.610 --> 00:12:12.910 consistently across the client base. And then, obviously, whomever is 165 00:12:12.910 --> 00:12:17.130 working directly with the customer is gonna customize that template for every 166 00:12:17.130 --> 00:12:21.290 account so you can get to a baseline. Um, like, Okay, here is a checklist. 167 00:12:21.300 --> 00:12:24.360 You know, we have toe usually get most of these things done. We know some of 168 00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:27.130 them we might delete. We might have to add new stuff, depending on the 169 00:12:27.130 --> 00:12:31.620 customer, but you can take it to a point that sets the account manager up 170 00:12:31.620 --> 00:12:35.380 for more success and does take some work off their plate. What we've been 171 00:12:35.380 --> 00:12:40.770 able to do is for the 1st 12 weeks, the first three months is at least create a 172 00:12:40.770 --> 00:12:47.010 framework of what that customer journey ideally should be, and create a Siris 173 00:12:47.020 --> 00:12:54.550 of Dex customer facing documents, materials, presentations, templates to 174 00:12:54.560 --> 00:12:58.840 enable the team not to have to start from scratch with every particular 175 00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:03.760 client and within the context of these templates. The way that we've been 176 00:13:03.760 --> 00:13:07.790 trying to address the different branching off that can happen at 177 00:13:07.790 --> 00:13:14.100 different points is build those pathways into each template, so that 178 00:13:14.110 --> 00:13:17.680 for the account manager, for example, let's say they're preparing for their 179 00:13:17.680 --> 00:13:23.000 30 day check in meeting. They are able to grab that that deck template and 180 00:13:23.010 --> 00:13:27.280 within it were accounting for, Well, the client might be here. Maybe they're 181 00:13:27.280 --> 00:13:32.350 here. Or maybe they're here right? And we've built out the content and the 182 00:13:32.350 --> 00:13:36.770 information or the foundation for reporting on different types of metrics, 183 00:13:36.770 --> 00:13:41.310 for example, that really allow them to go in and say, Okay for this customer, 184 00:13:41.320 --> 00:13:43.960 this is where they're at. So I'm going to use these slides. I'm going to 185 00:13:43.960 --> 00:13:47.730 delete those because they're not quite at that point yet, right? So it's 186 00:13:47.730 --> 00:13:53.460 trying to account for the most common scenarios based upon where they are in 187 00:13:53.460 --> 00:13:58.710 the journey and sort of building out your template. I think much more than I 188 00:13:58.710 --> 00:14:04.290 would have done before. So it's less prescriptive, but sort of focusing on 189 00:14:04.290 --> 00:14:10.320 how how can we do as much work as possible to make it easy for them? Thio, 190 00:14:10.330 --> 00:14:13.860 just take what we have removed what they don't need at what they don't need, 191 00:14:13.860 --> 00:14:18.430 customize and go. So that's the balance that we've we've attempted to strike 192 00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:22.730 Now that we're thinking of the sort of now we're in like the 3 to 6 month part 193 00:14:22.730 --> 00:14:27.380 of the journey, which gets even harder because the further out you get, the 194 00:14:27.380 --> 00:14:32.250 more ambiguous things are and the more branches you can have. So I feel pretty 195 00:14:32.250 --> 00:14:35.120 good about what we've done for the first three months. We're about to 196 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:38.430 tackle sort of months, 3 to 6, and so we're going to see how that how that 197 00:14:38.430 --> 00:14:41.710 goes next I'm again. I'm just right there with you because that's that's 198 00:14:41.710 --> 00:14:46.160 exactly what we did is we plan for asana. We've done a few Alfa and beta 199 00:14:46.160 --> 00:14:51.320 tests with new clients to go through the launch process in a sauna. And then 200 00:14:51.330 --> 00:14:55.540 before we ever touched how are we going to manage this for, you know, recurring 201 00:14:55.540 --> 00:15:00.160 customers that are beyond that that 1st 60 days for us in their on boarding 202 00:15:00.160 --> 00:15:04.400 process. I like what you said there, Meghan. Basically, what I heard is you 203 00:15:04.400 --> 00:15:09.260 want to create templates and you can create a project in a sauna that people 204 00:15:09.260 --> 00:15:12.660 can follow. And then you can duplicate that and then customize it as you need 205 00:15:12.660 --> 00:15:16.470 as they follow it. Per client, you know, or whatever system that you're using. 206 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:19.950 But the analogy here, I think, is instead of a playbook, think of it like 207 00:15:19.950 --> 00:15:23.770 one of those. Follow your own journey books. Did you ever read one of those 208 00:15:23.770 --> 00:15:27.630 is a kid like you get to Chapter 65 it's like, Did they take this path or 209 00:15:27.630 --> 00:15:31.700 this path in the woods? Right? Choose your own adventure. Yes, thank you. 210 00:15:31.700 --> 00:15:36.490 Choose your own adventure. Everything's there. But there's some leeway for 211 00:15:36.490 --> 00:15:39.800 where are we now? And where does the customer want to go? And just to give 212 00:15:39.800 --> 00:15:44.060 listeners another, you know, tactical example. We've started. You and I were 213 00:15:44.060 --> 00:15:47.810 chatting about this earlier. We've started implementing a Q p r. You heard 214 00:15:47.810 --> 00:15:52.380 me right. Q P R. Quarterly podcast review with our customers and you know, 215 00:15:52.380 --> 00:15:55.470 we've structured it around the three things that they want to know. Where 216 00:15:55.470 --> 00:15:59.140 have we been? Where are we now? Where we going? And there's really kind of 217 00:15:59.140 --> 00:16:03.420 three areas that our customers are usually monitoring as faras results you 218 00:16:03.420 --> 00:16:07.110 know the reach of their show. How much is the repurpose content from their 219 00:16:07.110 --> 00:16:10.570 podcast? What's the reach there? So we have, you know, some tools and some 220 00:16:10.570 --> 00:16:14.700 processes in place to to measure those and share those with customers. We're 221 00:16:14.700 --> 00:16:19.480 big fans of shield for linked in just for Anybody listening. And then anybody 222 00:16:19.480 --> 00:16:22.850 who's followed our content for a while knows that we're big believers in the 223 00:16:22.850 --> 00:16:26.740 relationship benefit of a podcast, content based networking Or, you know, 224 00:16:26.740 --> 00:16:30.270 the A B M play of having decision makers on your podcast. So our 225 00:16:30.270 --> 00:16:34.380 producers are gonna be looking at all right. Our customer is really focused 226 00:16:34.380 --> 00:16:37.320 on audience growth, or they're really focused on What's the impact of the 227 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:41.100 podcast having on their organic linked in reach? Or they're really focused on 228 00:16:41.100 --> 00:16:45.480 the A, B M or content based networking play and so building structure to where 229 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:49.700 we can say, Okay, here's what we can kind of report on, Talk on, coach on. 230 00:16:49.710 --> 00:16:53.900 If this is primary, we might not talk about all three, Or maybe we will, 231 00:16:53.900 --> 00:16:57.100 right? And so that's kind of how we're doing the same thing that I see you 232 00:16:57.100 --> 00:17:01.380 guys doing as well Megan to give people you know, another tactical example. I 233 00:17:01.380 --> 00:17:05.089 want to go back to the two differences that we started the conversation with 234 00:17:05.099 --> 00:17:09.060 between a product and the service company. And you talked about focusing 235 00:17:09.060 --> 00:17:14.760 on adoption of tech versus implementing a relationship with a human and that 236 00:17:14.760 --> 00:17:18.859 lack of control. And me, as in any a gram, nine with a very strong one wing 237 00:17:18.869 --> 00:17:22.980 my sense of control and want for process. Really, I struggle a little 238 00:17:22.980 --> 00:17:27.230 bit there. I know that you're also involved in hiring. They're refined 239 00:17:27.230 --> 00:17:31.620 labs a good bit. And so for anybody listening to this, has there been kind 240 00:17:31.620 --> 00:17:36.850 of a different switch in your mind in hiring for CF, Semmes or account 241 00:17:36.850 --> 00:17:40.810 managers or whatever that is in other people's context, knowing that the 242 00:17:40.810 --> 00:17:45.390 person is the product. It's a great question, and I think to preface my 243 00:17:45.390 --> 00:17:51.050 answer to this I want to share a a concept that I read about in this this 244 00:17:51.050 --> 00:17:53.940 really cool book. Actually, right before I joined the company called 245 00:17:53.940 --> 00:18:02.710 Brave New Work, the concept is describing a new way to think about 246 00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:08.170 running an organization, hiring talent and moving your organization forward to 247 00:18:08.170 --> 00:18:13.900 achieve goals The analogy that it uses to describe a new way of thinking is 248 00:18:13.900 --> 00:18:20.910 comparing streetlight controlled intersections. Two roundabouts on the 249 00:18:20.910 --> 00:18:25.520 highway and it talks about, you know, streetlight controlled intersection. 250 00:18:25.530 --> 00:18:31.820 Red means stop green means go yellow means slow down. The system is designed 251 00:18:31.830 --> 00:18:36.490 for compliance. Were telling you what to do and you do That thing that we're 252 00:18:36.490 --> 00:18:41.890 telling you to dio around about doesn't have any lights and is predicated on 253 00:18:41.890 --> 00:18:46.940 the fact that there's, um, you know, sort of an understanding that you let 254 00:18:46.940 --> 00:18:50.200 the person that's in the circle do their thing, that you enter the circle 255 00:18:50.200 --> 00:18:53.470 when it's your turn, that you have to use your best judgment and pay 256 00:18:53.470 --> 00:18:57.450 attention. And that's how you're going to get to where you need to go, right? 257 00:18:57.840 --> 00:19:01.860 There's some guard rails, but you need to be an active participant in going 258 00:19:01.860 --> 00:19:06.220 through the Roundabout so that you get through it safely. So despite the fact 259 00:19:06.220 --> 00:19:10.570 that there's like 300,000 street like controlled intersections and only 3000 260 00:19:10.570 --> 00:19:15.990 roundabouts in the U. S. For example, there are way more accidents from a 261 00:19:15.990 --> 00:19:19.650 percentage perspective. In intersections, they're way more 262 00:19:19.650 --> 00:19:22.970 expensive to run because you need an entire electricity grid. The 263 00:19:22.970 --> 00:19:29.050 electricity goes out. People don't even know what to dio and it stops. It stops 264 00:19:29.050 --> 00:19:34.230 traffic, right? And despite that, there's so many traffic jams and you 265 00:19:34.230 --> 00:19:36.700 know, not a smooth flow of traffic with those street like controlled 266 00:19:36.700 --> 00:19:40.860 intersections. So the whole point of me explaining this is the This author is 267 00:19:40.860 --> 00:19:46.990 asserting that if you're going to run an organization and you attempt Thio, 268 00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:51.470 run it by creating inner like, streetlight controlled intersections 269 00:19:51.470 --> 00:19:54.600 instead of roundabouts, you're not going to get to where you want to go. 270 00:19:54.610 --> 00:19:58.010 That's not creating an organization where you're empowering people. You 271 00:19:58.010 --> 00:20:02.110 have to give up that control, and you have to put the right guardrails and 272 00:20:02.110 --> 00:20:07.010 guidelines in place and bring the right people into the roundabout. And then 273 00:20:07.010 --> 00:20:11.350 that's how you really create a powerful company. Powerful outputs. And so the 274 00:20:11.350 --> 00:20:14.670 reason I wanted to go through that explanation is because certainly up 275 00:20:14.670 --> 00:20:18.460 until this point be based upon the businesses that I've been in the large 276 00:20:18.460 --> 00:20:23.200 size of the teams that I managed, you know, probably like the biggest team I 277 00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:28.970 managed was like, you know, 60 plus. CSM is managing 9000 corporate clients 278 00:20:28.970 --> 00:20:33.210 bringing in almost, you know, 500 million in annual revenue like, yeah, 279 00:20:33.210 --> 00:20:36.270 I'm controlling a lot of what's happening, right? Like there's a lot of 280 00:20:36.270 --> 00:20:39.030 people in that mix and, like, this is how we're This is how we're doing 281 00:20:39.030 --> 00:20:43.260 things everybody like everybody follow the plan. Red means stop. Green means 282 00:20:43.260 --> 00:20:46.780 go. Right. But now I'm kind of coming into this organization and just like, 283 00:20:46.780 --> 00:20:50.840 that's not gonna work here. Yeah, And what's the context for folks who don't 284 00:20:50.840 --> 00:20:54.240 know, like, size of refined labs? How maney account managers you guys have 285 00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:59.280 give us. Give us that context. Yeah. So we're working with about 20 customers. 286 00:20:59.280 --> 00:21:03.160 We have four. You know, we call them Director of demand, gen. As sort of the 287 00:21:03.160 --> 00:21:06.670 title, but they effectively, you know, each work with, you know, 4 to 6 288 00:21:06.670 --> 00:21:12.090 different customers to implement our strategies at any given time. Andi were 289 00:21:12.090 --> 00:21:14.970 actually recruiting firm or director of demand. Jen's if you're interested, 290 00:21:14.970 --> 00:21:19.150 reach out when Queen Kei, anybody, uh, Meghan's linked in profile will be in 291 00:21:19.150 --> 00:21:23.630 the show notes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. So kind of coming back to your question. 292 00:21:23.630 --> 00:21:27.290 And it was a long answer, but I thought it was a really important analogy that 293 00:21:27.290 --> 00:21:32.110 really expresses kind of my current thinking and point of view about how to 294 00:21:32.110 --> 00:21:36.290 think about both hiring and managing the customer experience in a services 295 00:21:36.290 --> 00:21:42.170 business is you have to let go of control because you will never get it. 296 00:21:42.540 --> 00:21:47.110 And so the ingredients for me is as I'm assessing people to join the 297 00:21:47.110 --> 00:21:50.540 organization off course. We need to make sure that they have, like, the 298 00:21:50.540 --> 00:21:54.470 hard skills that are needed, you know, for the particular services that were 299 00:21:54.470 --> 00:21:58.580 delivering around demand, Gen etcetera. So putting that aside that that sort of 300 00:21:58.580 --> 00:22:03.160 table stakes I'm looking for are Are we values aligned? So what are 301 00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:06.220 organization cares about our Do you philosophically agree with what we're 302 00:22:06.220 --> 00:22:12.220 trying to dio? And do you have some of those intangibles where if we if we're 303 00:22:12.220 --> 00:22:17.150 philosophically and values aligned and we teach, you are approach, that you're 304 00:22:17.150 --> 00:22:22.660 going to make the same type of quality decisions that the rest of us will make 305 00:22:22.670 --> 00:22:26.700 because we're aligned on the most important things on, Maybe the path to 306 00:22:26.700 --> 00:22:30.160 get there are a little bit different, but it's actually more about, you know, 307 00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:34.270 do you agree with how we view the world. Are you proactive? Do you have high 308 00:22:34.270 --> 00:22:40.080 emotional intelligence? Are you willing to be resourceful and inventive and 309 00:22:40.080 --> 00:22:43.540 figure out how to get something done if it's not completely spelled out? Are 310 00:22:43.540 --> 00:22:46.940 you humble enough to ask for help when you need? It s so like those are the 311 00:22:46.940 --> 00:22:50.660 types of qualities that I look for because I know that as long as we're 312 00:22:50.660 --> 00:22:55.070 values aligned, our philosophies are aligned and you have some of those more 313 00:22:55.070 --> 00:22:59.160 intangible skills that you could argue, maybe can be trained but are way more 314 00:22:59.160 --> 00:23:03.530 difficult. Then I know that you could be successful in our organization 315 00:23:03.540 --> 00:23:07.410 because you have those like those are the things that really matter the most. 316 00:23:07.410 --> 00:23:12.730 And if we need toe brush up your Google ads skills or your Marquitos skills or 317 00:23:12.730 --> 00:23:18.170 whatever it is like that we can dio on. But that's what I'd rather focus on 318 00:23:18.170 --> 00:23:21.560 than than some of those those intangibles. And so it's really I view 319 00:23:21.560 --> 00:23:26.970 my role is how can I create the roundabout and how can I bring the 320 00:23:26.970 --> 00:23:30.790 right people to drive in the round about like that is my goal, like 321 00:23:30.790 --> 00:23:35.040 creating the conditions for success and knowing that I can control the building 322 00:23:35.040 --> 00:23:38.870 of the Roundabout, I can control which people come in. But beyond that, I 323 00:23:38.870 --> 00:23:42.130 don't have a lot of control. Absolutely, what we say a lot here. It's sweet 324 00:23:42.130 --> 00:23:45.710 fishes. Let's get the right people on the bus. And then if we need to change 325 00:23:45.710 --> 00:23:48.940 seats, we need Thio, you know, coach them toe, move them up a seat or or 326 00:23:48.940 --> 00:23:52.460 whatever. That is your roundabout analogy. It's so good, though. I'm just 327 00:23:52.460 --> 00:23:56.620 a sucker for a good analogy. And I'm glad you spent the time talking about 328 00:23:56.620 --> 00:24:00.530 that from intersections, Thio, roundabouts, you know. And I'd say 329 00:24:00.540 --> 00:24:04.940 we've mirrored a lot of the those same things. Ryan Draddy, our director of 330 00:24:04.940 --> 00:24:08.570 culture and people up here. Sweet fish has done a phenomenal job, and I think 331 00:24:08.580 --> 00:24:12.180 for anyone out there listening to what you're saying, Megan that are they 332 00:24:12.180 --> 00:24:16.100 values aligned or they philosophically aligned. Those were so important. But 333 00:24:16.100 --> 00:24:19.450 you can't do those if you don't if you aren't clear on your core values, right. 334 00:24:19.460 --> 00:24:23.650 And about two years ago we sat down his leadership team here, it sweet fish, 335 00:24:23.650 --> 00:24:27.160 and we had seven core values, and James are CEO and founder will be the first 336 00:24:27.160 --> 00:24:31.470 one who could tell you I couldn't even recite all seven of them. And so it was 337 00:24:31.480 --> 00:24:37.040 a multiple day process. But it was well worth it, because now we are crystal 338 00:24:37.040 --> 00:24:41.760 clear on our three core values. Love people well, never stop learning and 339 00:24:41.770 --> 00:24:45.380 own the result and own. The result is kind of what I hear you saying and 340 00:24:45.380 --> 00:24:48.930 other people saying, and those those intangibles like, How are they? Are 341 00:24:48.930 --> 00:24:53.580 they going to take ownership and get to the result with the right values in 342 00:24:53.580 --> 00:24:56.620 mind? And they think about things the same way, which is where that 343 00:24:56.620 --> 00:24:59.470 philosophical alignment comes in, because we've seen that with customers, 344 00:24:59.470 --> 00:25:02.980 right? We've had customers where we just had to say, Look, let's shake 345 00:25:02.980 --> 00:25:07.150 hands and be friends But we philosophically disagree on the role of 346 00:25:07.150 --> 00:25:11.160 content in marketing, and that's a whole other conversation. But I'd say 347 00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:15.450 for customers and for employees, that philosophical and values alignment is 348 00:25:15.450 --> 00:25:19.160 important. But you have to be clear on what those are before. That you can 349 00:25:19.160 --> 00:25:23.810 measure is to say yes or known. It's not as easy as a check box, but on e 350 00:25:23.810 --> 00:25:29.380 que. I'm with you in sales in customer success in pretty much any facet of 351 00:25:29.380 --> 00:25:34.530 life, e que, I think is the X factor. How do U S S e que. When you're looking 352 00:25:34.530 --> 00:25:39.450 at potential candidates for your team? So a few things that I do in a lot of 353 00:25:39.450 --> 00:25:46.570 my interviews is I try to get the other person to tell me stories, riel stories 354 00:25:46.580 --> 00:25:50.570 of what they've done, and so usually I actually start with. I've read your 355 00:25:50.570 --> 00:25:54.270 resume, your LinkedIn profile. But tell me your story. I think it's really 356 00:25:54.280 --> 00:25:58.490 interesting what people choose to tell you when you have a very open ended 357 00:25:58.490 --> 00:26:02.660 question like that. The other thing, I'll like Thio. You know, that sort of 358 00:26:02.660 --> 00:26:07.160 my baseline. Then I like to dig into tell me about a time that you were 359 00:26:07.160 --> 00:26:11.450 really disappointed or you failed, and how did you react and what did you dio 360 00:26:11.460 --> 00:26:14.960 I like to say, Tell me about a time when you were dealing with an angry 361 00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:19.300 customer and how you turned things around and turn that negative into a 362 00:26:19.300 --> 00:26:25.220 positive. So I like to hear stories about failure, challenges, difficult 363 00:26:25.220 --> 00:26:31.630 situations that can tell you a lot about how people behave not on Lee. The 364 00:26:31.630 --> 00:26:36.030 story that they tell but how they choose to respond to those stories. The 365 00:26:36.030 --> 00:26:43.420 people that are willing Thio admit difficulty, situations, you know, show 366 00:26:43.420 --> 00:26:48.600 weakness and vulnerability early on in an interview process is a huge green 367 00:26:48.600 --> 00:26:53.330 flag for me, like, Wow, this person understand this is the first impression. 368 00:26:53.330 --> 00:26:56.890 This is an interview and like they're getting really with me right now and 369 00:26:56.890 --> 00:27:00.720 like that is that is the type of person that you know I wanna have on my bus, 370 00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:06.090 right? So that's a no interviewed technique or a tactic that I like to 371 00:27:06.090 --> 00:27:10.890 use to really try and and and suss it out. And usually that gives me a pretty 372 00:27:10.890 --> 00:27:15.790 good sense. You know, I can pretty much sense within a 30 minute conversation, 373 00:27:15.800 --> 00:27:20.230 you know where someone is sort of in their development of honing. You know, 374 00:27:20.230 --> 00:27:24.780 they're e que So, yeah, I would say that's like my primary interview time, 375 00:27:24.790 --> 00:27:28.730 and I love that you brought humility up again. Something Patrick Lynch Yoni 376 00:27:28.730 --> 00:27:33.450 says all the time is, you know, hiring for hungry, humble and smart, and that 377 00:27:33.450 --> 00:27:38.140 humility and how they communicate. I like what you said about what they 378 00:27:38.140 --> 00:27:42.150 leave in where they choose to start. I like to in those stories listen for 379 00:27:42.150 --> 00:27:46.400 moments of decision and change, because that tells you a little bit about what 380 00:27:46.400 --> 00:27:51.310 they value. And you know how they think about the world, right? Especially if 381 00:27:51.310 --> 00:27:55.780 you dig into hold on. You made this change. Why was that again and and 382 00:27:55.780 --> 00:28:00.240 asking that I love the Tell me about a time, right. Because then you get to 383 00:28:00.250 --> 00:28:04.730 also test their communication skills. Not just, you know, I'm a hard worker. 384 00:28:04.730 --> 00:28:09.020 Yes, I can. I can handle this. Yes, I can handle that. Right? Show me. Don't 385 00:28:09.020 --> 00:28:12.990 tell me absolutely. And just interject. I think one thing that I would tell 386 00:28:12.990 --> 00:28:17.260 people that I didn't really do, actually, until I was laid off in 2019 387 00:28:17.260 --> 00:28:23.000 and was like actively looking for work. I actually spent a ton of time writing 388 00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:28.390 down my story, honing my narrative. And once I got that down, I then met with, 389 00:28:28.390 --> 00:28:33.460 like, 20 founders over the course of last October. And I landed a job, made 390 00:28:33.460 --> 00:28:37.170 a ton of great relationships, but it was super interesting. Was and I 391 00:28:37.180 --> 00:28:39.750 actually hired an executive coach. He told me to do this, so I didn't come up 392 00:28:39.750 --> 00:28:44.120 with this on my own. But almost every one of them said, Wow, like you have 393 00:28:44.120 --> 00:28:48.580 your story down and that is interesting and I love it. And so anyway, just like 394 00:28:48.590 --> 00:28:53.350 I didn't think of this until I was 35 years old. But it's like write down 395 00:28:53.350 --> 00:28:56.860 your narrative right down your story and like that's a really, really 396 00:28:56.860 --> 00:29:02.300 powerful thing. If you nail that and you tell your story really well, man, 397 00:29:02.300 --> 00:29:06.790 it's just so powerful anyway, that that is fantastic. And for anybody listening 398 00:29:06.790 --> 00:29:10.270 to this, who is, you know, currently looking for their next opportunity this 399 00:29:10.270 --> 00:29:13.800 year has affected people in a lot of different ways. I think that that is, 400 00:29:13.810 --> 00:29:18.040 that it's solid advice, especially if you're looking for a marketing role and 401 00:29:18.040 --> 00:29:22.370 the power to tell stories is so important. I think that's gonna have a 402 00:29:22.370 --> 00:29:26.840 double impact for anybody in marketing. One of the things I wanted to make sure 403 00:29:26.850 --> 00:29:30.270 I spent some time with you on Meghan is something we're thinking about in the 404 00:29:30.270 --> 00:29:34.150 future for Sweet Fish is you know, there's kind of two ways to look at 405 00:29:34.150 --> 00:29:38.160 customers success and account management. Do you split the 406 00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:44.310 responsibility between people who are just focused and not incentivized by 407 00:29:44.310 --> 00:29:48.210 the financial relationship with the customer? But they're strictly focused 408 00:29:48.210 --> 00:29:52.010 on the success apart from the business relationship. And then have another 409 00:29:52.010 --> 00:29:56.170 person who or, you know, team of people. Obviously, depending on the scale, who 410 00:29:56.170 --> 00:30:00.250 handled the financial relationship renew ALS up sells those sorts of 411 00:30:00.250 --> 00:30:04.250 things, and there's a lot of different ways to mix those two to put them into 412 00:30:04.250 --> 00:30:08.680 one team toe. Have them, you know, combined into one role that handles 413 00:30:08.680 --> 00:30:12.170 that across whether you're handling, you know, 10 to 15 accounts, 5 to 10 414 00:30:12.170 --> 00:30:16.920 accounts like like you guys do or form or philosophically, Do you have some 415 00:30:16.920 --> 00:30:23.010 thoughts on how you recommend C X and C s leaders Think about this is they 416 00:30:23.020 --> 00:30:27.730 build their organization and roadmap for the future? Yeah, and I actually 417 00:30:27.730 --> 00:30:31.940 have two strong opposing opinions, depending on whether it's a product 418 00:30:31.940 --> 00:30:38.160 business or a services business. Eso When I was running CS in, you know, 419 00:30:38.170 --> 00:30:42.970 sort of a B two b SAS company, I actually always structured my team so 420 00:30:42.970 --> 00:30:46.870 that whether we called them an account manager or customer, success manager. 421 00:30:47.140 --> 00:30:51.540 They owned the entirety of the relationship. So everything from on 422 00:30:51.540 --> 00:30:56.450 boarding implementation also the commercial side up cell renewal, Any 423 00:30:56.450 --> 00:31:01.740 escalation, churn threat, etcetera within the context of a business where 424 00:31:01.740 --> 00:31:06.520 you do have a technology product and you are investing a ton of time getting 425 00:31:06.520 --> 00:31:11.440 to know that customer and the value that they're getting is primarily from 426 00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:16.950 the technology with the added layer of service from the CSM. Combining those 427 00:31:16.950 --> 00:31:21.960 functions into one role in my experience was very successful, and I 428 00:31:21.960 --> 00:31:26.360 feel like sometimes there's like an over segmentation and SAS where they're 429 00:31:26.360 --> 00:31:30.260 like, Here's your on boarding person. Here's your CSM And then here's your 430 00:31:30.260 --> 00:31:32.900 account manager. Then you also had a sales person and the customers like 431 00:31:32.900 --> 00:31:38.050 there's too many people like who do I go for what? And so granted, there's 432 00:31:38.050 --> 00:31:44.350 probably some businesses big enterprise, very technical, where, like Salesforce, 433 00:31:44.350 --> 00:31:47.550 for example, I know that they split out account management in customer success 434 00:31:47.550 --> 00:31:51.220 like Okay, Salesforce could do that, But for most companies, it's just not 435 00:31:51.220 --> 00:31:55.440 necessary Now. When I came into the services business, my initial gut 436 00:31:55.440 --> 00:32:00.810 reaction was I wonder if this stance that I have will hold true. And given 437 00:32:00.810 --> 00:32:09.560 my experience so far because the account manager is so ingrained and 438 00:32:09.570 --> 00:32:13.570 actually being the product and the service, I actually believe the 439 00:32:13.580 --> 00:32:17.970 opposite makes more sense. And so the way that we've been handling it at 440 00:32:17.970 --> 00:32:23.050 refined labs right now is I essentially support all of the director of demand. 441 00:32:23.050 --> 00:32:26.690 Jen's with all of our customer relationships. I've met every customer. 442 00:32:26.690 --> 00:32:32.450 They all know me and I'm able thio handle, follow up on an outstanding 443 00:32:32.450 --> 00:32:37.310 payment, an up sell conversation, an escalation about something that maybe 444 00:32:37.310 --> 00:32:43.080 went sideways. And I've actually found that by me playing that role. It allows 445 00:32:43.080 --> 00:32:47.810 the director of demand Jin to really protect the relationship that they've 446 00:32:47.810 --> 00:32:54.440 created and keep it, keep it in a safe, space related thio What we're trying to 447 00:32:54.440 --> 00:33:00.370 dio and I think it remains to be seen if you know my opinion will change here. 448 00:33:00.370 --> 00:33:04.900 It's certainly possible that that it might, but I found that this does seem 449 00:33:04.900 --> 00:33:10.190 to be working better in this context, and I think the key difference is the 450 00:33:10.190 --> 00:33:16.110 person is really driving the bulk of the value where, in a B two B Texas 451 00:33:16.110 --> 00:33:20.780 company, the product is essentially playing that role with the human layer 452 00:33:20.780 --> 00:33:23.790 on top of it. And not that the CSM doesn't add value, of course, that they 453 00:33:23.790 --> 00:33:28.700 dio, but they're not the primary like they didn't buy the product for the CSM, 454 00:33:28.710 --> 00:33:31.970 right? They bought it for the product and and the outcome that it could 455 00:33:31.970 --> 00:33:34.940 provide in a services business that's just not quite true. Like they're one 456 00:33:34.940 --> 00:33:40.110 and the same. And so having that sort of separation, I think, has been really 457 00:33:40.110 --> 00:33:44.720 helpful and powerful, and I think it also it protects that relationship. I 458 00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:48.940 can kind of be the bad guy if I have to be right and or have that uncomfortable 459 00:33:48.940 --> 00:33:53.220 conversation. But it's not impacting like the day to day of the experience. 460 00:33:53.220 --> 00:33:58.030 So will that scale. I don't know, but that's working well right now. So 461 00:33:58.040 --> 00:34:01.330 that's a that's a question I'm I'm dealing with is well, because I'm 462 00:34:01.340 --> 00:34:04.830 basically in that exact same seat, and that's pretty much how we have it 463 00:34:04.830 --> 00:34:09.520 structured here at Sweet Fish. We're getting to the point of where you know 464 00:34:09.530 --> 00:34:14.000 we're gonna have to make that decision on how do we how do we then scale that 465 00:34:14.010 --> 00:34:18.480 you mentioned? It seems to be working the protecting of that relationship. 466 00:34:18.489 --> 00:34:22.460 And from my day to day, I've had those situations having those uncomfortable 467 00:34:22.460 --> 00:34:25.929 conversations and not having, you know and kind of protecting that 468 00:34:25.929 --> 00:34:31.210 relationship between our producer and the customer. Are there any things that 469 00:34:31.219 --> 00:34:36.350 you could share? Where other ways that, Yeah, I see this working because of 470 00:34:36.360 --> 00:34:40.010 because of this or is it maybe a little bit too early for that? It's a good 471 00:34:40.010 --> 00:34:43.530 question. I think that we were briefly talking about this, I think before we 472 00:34:43.530 --> 00:34:48.610 hit record. But I think it's also really acknowledging the skill set of 473 00:34:48.610 --> 00:34:52.320 the people that are in the customer facing roles in services based 474 00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:56.830 businesses. And so you know, the people that we have working directly with our 475 00:34:56.830 --> 00:35:00.480 customers. They are experts in demand generation. They're experts in 476 00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:04.620 marketing. They know our strategies in our philosophies, inside and out, and 477 00:35:04.620 --> 00:35:08.960 they can work with our customers to, like really transform their demanding 478 00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:14.470 and their marketing programs. But they might not have had true experience in 479 00:35:14.480 --> 00:35:19.690 up selling services or dealing with an outstanding payment or working through 480 00:35:19.700 --> 00:35:24.040 a mismatched expectations and resetting on scope of work. And it's not to say 481 00:35:24.040 --> 00:35:27.910 that the team can't do that like, I think a lot of them, you know, can do 482 00:35:27.910 --> 00:35:33.980 that. But that's just not their core competency. Their core competency is 483 00:35:33.990 --> 00:35:39.330 the expertise that is really critical. In order for us, Thio deliver on the 484 00:35:39.330 --> 00:35:43.080 promises that were making to our customers. And so I'm a big believer 485 00:35:43.080 --> 00:35:47.610 that I think when you're building a team, you ideally want to create a 486 00:35:47.610 --> 00:35:52.700 structure and define roles so that people are on Lee doing the things that 487 00:35:52.700 --> 00:35:57.210 are there, core competencies and the things that they do best and within the 488 00:35:57.210 --> 00:36:02.290 context of a services business, it's Mawr important that they are an expert 489 00:36:02.300 --> 00:36:07.390 in the service instead of an expert in customer relationship management and 490 00:36:07.390 --> 00:36:11.050 contract negotiation. And, you know, there's just so many things when you 491 00:36:11.050 --> 00:36:15.730 kind of open that door. As you rightly said earlier in SAS, we've kind of over 492 00:36:15.730 --> 00:36:20.180 segmented at times. But the premise is still true. You want everybody 493 00:36:20.190 --> 00:36:25.300 operating as much as possible in their core competencies. There was a podcast 494 00:36:25.300 --> 00:36:30.320 episode from Craig Rochelle, James and I listen to that religiously. Yeah, 495 00:36:30.330 --> 00:36:36.050 it's he's a pastor. Sorry, bad pun. We listen to that regularly and he's a 496 00:36:36.050 --> 00:36:39.410 Christian pastor. But his leadership stuff is is really, really good. And 497 00:36:39.420 --> 00:36:42.570 even if that's not your worldview, highly suggest checking that out. One 498 00:36:42.570 --> 00:36:46.520 of his recent episodes was going through everything that you do and 499 00:36:46.520 --> 00:36:50.110 identifying your four tiers of effectiveness, and he breaks that down. 500 00:36:50.110 --> 00:36:53.810 You know what's mission critical on Lee? I could do what's you know. It goes 501 00:36:53.820 --> 00:36:57.610 further down. We'll link to this in the show notes. But it's very much a 502 00:36:57.610 --> 00:37:02.550 tactical way to see how much am I doing that on Lee Aiken Dio. That's in my 503 00:37:02.550 --> 00:37:08.130 core competency and how much is being taken up by oftentimes this other 80%. 504 00:37:08.140 --> 00:37:13.450 And I'm only operating in my gift in my core competency 20%. So how that will 505 00:37:13.450 --> 00:37:17.480 play out in your organization, in ours and in listeners Will you know that 506 00:37:17.480 --> 00:37:21.860 well, time will tell, but I'm with you there based on that premise and other 507 00:37:21.860 --> 00:37:25.150 things that I'm thinking about right now and that stuff I've heard from 508 00:37:25.160 --> 00:37:28.790 other leaders that I definitely respect Meghan. As we round out the 509 00:37:28.790 --> 00:37:34.630 conversation today, any final thoughts on all of this for anyone in CS or C X 510 00:37:34.640 --> 00:37:38.700 account management in a service based business that you think they've just 511 00:37:38.710 --> 00:37:42.460 Man, you got to take this away from from this episode. If nothing else, 512 00:37:43.330 --> 00:37:46.540 Yeah, I think that, you know, one of the things actually that I am really 513 00:37:46.540 --> 00:37:52.060 enjoying is the fact that really pretty much every single thing that we do day 514 00:37:52.060 --> 00:37:57.460 to day can be distilled down to just a relationship that you have with another 515 00:37:57.460 --> 00:38:01.590 person. And so understanding, like we talked a lot about emotional 516 00:38:01.590 --> 00:38:07.030 intelligence. Um, but like empathy, communication e que Just like at the 517 00:38:07.030 --> 00:38:10.650 end of the day, we're all just like people dealing with people and trying 518 00:38:10.650 --> 00:38:13.790 to get stuff done trying to figure stuff out together. And so it's like 519 00:38:13.800 --> 00:38:17.730 it's a really fun daily reminder that it's just like treat people the way you 520 00:38:17.730 --> 00:38:21.460 want to be treated, like remember that we're all human, like you don't need to 521 00:38:21.460 --> 00:38:26.890 play games. Just be honest, lean into the tough conversations, talk about the 522 00:38:26.890 --> 00:38:30.250 things that you're avoiding, like at the end of the day, we're all just 523 00:38:30.260 --> 00:38:35.080 people, and I think I've especially in my position where I'm often the one 524 00:38:35.080 --> 00:38:38.800 maybe I have probably more tough conversations than easy conversations 525 00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:43.290 In my day to day, I've gotten to the point where it's, you know, I don't 526 00:38:43.290 --> 00:38:47.510 dread them. It's like, This is, this is life. Life is messy, like, let's hash 527 00:38:47.510 --> 00:38:50.500 it out. It's figured out. However it ends up, it's gonna end up. Let's talk 528 00:38:50.500 --> 00:38:54.540 about it, Meghan, Thank you so much. You have no idea how encouraging those 529 00:38:54.540 --> 00:38:58.740 words aren't to me right now. I've been in this role of C X for the last month, 530 00:38:58.750 --> 00:39:02.450 and I'm like, Man, I've been having a lot more tough conversations I've been 531 00:39:02.460 --> 00:39:07.040 I've been dealing with MAWR fires. Now I think we overuse the word fire like 532 00:39:07.020 --> 00:39:10.100 we're doing marketing for B to B Companies were not doing brain surgery 533 00:39:10.100 --> 00:39:13.530 like nobody's life is really on the line. Life for death of an email isn't 534 00:39:13.530 --> 00:39:17.550 responded to in in two hours instead of four or whatever, but I like what you 535 00:39:17.550 --> 00:39:20.630 said to about just realizing that you're interacting with other humans. 536 00:39:20.630 --> 00:39:24.380 One of our producers asked me the other day after we did Cem Cem relationship 537 00:39:24.380 --> 00:39:27.800 management training and actually was prior to it because I addressed it in 538 00:39:27.800 --> 00:39:31.920 the training. They said, How can I get customers to talk to me more and say 539 00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:35.010 when they have a problem or bring up an issue, even if I need to escalate that 540 00:39:35.010 --> 00:39:39.100 to someone else, I wanna be the one who draws that out of them. And I said, You 541 00:39:39.100 --> 00:39:41.980 know, the best thing you could do is build friendships with your customers. 542 00:39:41.990 --> 00:39:46.520 Each one of our producers is typically managing 10 to 15 accounts, so not at 543 00:39:46.520 --> 00:39:50.350 this, you know, huge scale. It's not one or two, but they can still develop 544 00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:53.780 pretty strong relationships. And I said, You know, if you are friends with your 545 00:39:53.780 --> 00:39:56.910 customer, if you are, you know, I'm not saying you're texting them all the time 546 00:39:56.910 --> 00:40:00.070 about the production of their podcast, But if you have a relationship where if 547 00:40:00.070 --> 00:40:04.450 you send a text that's not too weird, the likelihood of them saying, Hey, 548 00:40:04.810 --> 00:40:08.400 Logan, I've got a problem here. I don't want to complain, but I need to say 549 00:40:08.400 --> 00:40:11.880 something before it gets worse. The odds of them doing that if you have a 550 00:40:11.880 --> 00:40:16.670 friendship with your customer are just so so much higher. So I just want to 551 00:40:16.670 --> 00:40:19.790 echo what you're saying there because it's been encouragement. I've been 552 00:40:19.790 --> 00:40:23.450 trying to give our team here lately as well. And I have another tactic there 553 00:40:23.450 --> 00:40:28.810 for you to because in my experience about your your advices is sound. But 554 00:40:28.820 --> 00:40:34.600 customers hate giving bad feedback. They really dio. And if you actually 555 00:40:34.600 --> 00:40:39.100 take that friendship to a certain level, sometimes they might feel bad and not 556 00:40:39.100 --> 00:40:42.990 want to bring it up. And so what I always say is make it easy for 557 00:40:42.990 --> 00:40:46.880 customers to give you bad feedback. So don't ask How are things going? Are you 558 00:40:46.880 --> 00:40:51.210 happy? Actually, ask the inverse Hey, you know, is there anything that 559 00:40:51.210 --> 00:40:54.930 happened in the last 30 days? That was less than stellar? Um, if you could 560 00:40:54.930 --> 00:40:59.090 pick one thing that I could do better, what would that thing be? Eso actually 561 00:40:59.090 --> 00:41:03.820 being really specific about forcing them to give you an area of improvement? 562 00:41:03.830 --> 00:41:08.740 I find that tactic is the most successful in because they're like, Oh, 563 00:41:08.740 --> 00:41:12.320 they want me to tell them that, right? Like, you know, I know I'm not perfect. 564 00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:15.410 My goal here is to continue to incrementally improve your experience. 565 00:41:15.410 --> 00:41:21.240 Where can I start? And so that that approach I found is is best because 566 00:41:21.610 --> 00:41:24.460 even if you're really good friends with your client. Like sometimes they just 567 00:41:24.460 --> 00:41:28.150 they don't want to give you. That's exactly the tone of voice they're gonna 568 00:41:28.150 --> 00:41:33.900 use, right? I don't want to say this, Meghan, but you know another thing I've 569 00:41:33.910 --> 00:41:37.780 I've tried to take some of the conversational things I learned from 570 00:41:37.790 --> 00:41:42.310 negotiating from Chris bosses by book. Never split the difference. Ask a 571 00:41:42.310 --> 00:41:46.340 question that prompts them to say no because then they'll say no and then 572 00:41:46.340 --> 00:41:51.450 they will explain mawr. So, you know a scenario recently where a customer we 573 00:41:51.450 --> 00:41:55.020 were designing their cover art for their new podcast and they decided to 574 00:41:55.020 --> 00:41:59.070 take that piece in house. And it's, you know, could be a sign that, hey, things 575 00:41:59.070 --> 00:42:02.970 are aren't going that well And we need to, you know, find that out. And what I 576 00:42:02.970 --> 00:42:07.390 encouraged our producer to say was Seems like we really missed the mark on 577 00:42:07.400 --> 00:42:12.260 the cover art question mark right? Because then even if they say, Oh, no, 578 00:42:12.260 --> 00:42:15.990 no, no, no, no. It wasn't you. It was this and that We're going to get the 579 00:42:15.990 --> 00:42:20.160 full story or they have the opportunity to say no, You didn't totally missed 580 00:42:20.160 --> 00:42:24.650 the mark, but this and this weren't kind of up to our expectations. So it 581 00:42:24.650 --> 00:42:29.020 gives them room to say that in between because they don't want to tell you, 582 00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:32.730 Meghan, you guys blew it. But if you get them to say something between, you 583 00:42:32.730 --> 00:42:37.450 totally blew it. And I'm really upset and know things air. Okay, right. It's 584 00:42:37.450 --> 00:42:40.370 getting them to say, What's the in between there? And that's, you know 585 00:42:40.370 --> 00:42:44.730 another way. And I love for anybody who didn't catch that, hit the 32nd back, 586 00:42:44.730 --> 00:42:47.900 but in a couple of times. And listen what with the way Meghan phrase that I 587 00:42:47.900 --> 00:42:51.510 think that was really good. Well, Meghan, if anybody listening to this is 588 00:42:51.500 --> 00:42:55.870 for some reason not connected with you on LinkedIn and otherwise, what's the 589 00:42:55.870 --> 00:42:59.650 best way for them to reach out and stay connected with you? Yep. Lincoln is the 590 00:42:59.650 --> 00:43:04.000 Onley social media platform that I am on. So that's the best place toe find 591 00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:07.780 me on. Do you can check out what we're doing at a refined labs that refined 592 00:43:07.780 --> 00:43:11.810 labs dot com. I love it Well, Meghan, happy holidays. You and I will have to 593 00:43:11.810 --> 00:43:16.060 talk turkey a little bit here offline will save listeners from that maybe. I 594 00:43:16.060 --> 00:43:19.060 don't know. Maybe it's a bonus episode. We'll see. But thank you so much for 595 00:43:19.060 --> 00:43:22.810 making time. It's always a pleasure chatting with you. And I think 596 00:43:22.820 --> 00:43:26.150 listeners air yet again, gonna get more value from you dropping some knowledge 597 00:43:26.150 --> 00:43:28.890 bombs today. So I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me, Logan. It's been 598 00:43:28.890 --> 00:43:29.610 great. 599 00:43:30.700 --> 00:43:34.070 For the longest time, I was asking people to leave a review of B two B 600 00:43:34.080 --> 00:43:38.070 growth in Apple podcasts, but I realized that was kind of stupid 601 00:43:38.080 --> 00:43:43.510 because leaving a review is way harder than just leaving a simple rating. So 602 00:43:43.510 --> 00:43:47.310 I'm changing my tune a bit. Instead of asking you to leave a review, I'm just 603 00:43:47.310 --> 00:43:51.350 gonna ask you to go to be to be growth in apple podcasts, scroll down until 604 00:43:51.350 --> 00:43:55.270 you see the ratings and review section and just tap the number of stars you 605 00:43:55.270 --> 00:43:59.970 wanna give us. No review necessary Super easy. And I promise it will help 606 00:43:59.970 --> 00:44:04.420 us out a ton. If you want a copy of my book content based networking, just 607 00:44:04.420 --> 00:44:08.110 shoot me a text. After you leave the rating on, I'll send one your way. Text 608 00:44:08.110 --> 00:44:12.730 me at 4074903328