1354: How to Say NO & Accelerate Growth w/ Yoni Tserruya

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.240 --> 00:00:08.509 Welcome back to be to be growth. I'm looking lyles with sweet fish media. 2 00:00:08.710 --> 00:00:12.589 I'm joined today by Yo Need Seruya. He is the CEO and Co 3 00:00:12.750 --> 00:00:15.910 founder over at Lucia. Yoni, welcome to the show. How you doing 4 00:00:15.949 --> 00:00:20.109 today? Man, I'm great. Thanks for hosting me. Great to be 5 00:00:20.269 --> 00:00:22.940 here, awesome. It is fantastic to have you. We're going to be 6 00:00:23.059 --> 00:00:28.660 talking about your journey over at Lucia and what other startups can learn from your 7 00:00:28.820 --> 00:00:33.500 bootstrap and product led growth journey. You only, as we kick things off, 8 00:00:33.619 --> 00:00:37.689 to us a little bit. We're definitely gonna unpack some of the crucial 9 00:00:37.850 --> 00:00:42.369 decisions that you guys have made along the way in in your growth journey. 10 00:00:42.770 --> 00:00:46.810 But you know, the question we've got to start with is why boots trapping? 11 00:00:47.090 --> 00:00:50.439 Why did you guys start there and why have you continued down that path 12 00:00:51.200 --> 00:00:53.960 when there's kind of this major fork in the road? Is You're building a 13 00:00:54.000 --> 00:00:56.920 start up and trying to scale it. Yeah, I would love to. 14 00:00:57.200 --> 00:01:00.640 So I think maybe we can start just with a quick overview. What's Luction? 15 00:01:00.759 --> 00:01:03.239 What are we doing? So it's the easier to explain the beginning of 16 00:01:03.349 --> 00:01:08.430 the journey. So Lucia helps to go to market would become smarter by commoditizing 17 00:01:08.590 --> 00:01:14.510 be to beat data, we hope companies by providing them a simple self service 18 00:01:14.590 --> 00:01:19.060 solution that allows them to identify and easily reach out to their potential customers, 19 00:01:19.620 --> 00:01:23.900 by providing them prospecting and enrichment capabilities and reader, you know, they are 20 00:01:23.980 --> 00:01:29.859 deal customer profile very easily and with direct bit to be in full, I 21 00:01:29.980 --> 00:01:34.450 think that the beginning of the company was I just need to explain the beginning 22 00:01:34.489 --> 00:01:38.409 and right we started as a booster. I mean my experience, I was 23 00:01:38.769 --> 00:01:42.689 I learned software engineering and I started as an I was developer for several years 24 00:01:42.010 --> 00:01:48.040 and I had an experience, you know, building consumer products with a very 25 00:01:48.079 --> 00:01:55.159 simple on boarding experience and and self service experience and identifying contact and stuff like 26 00:01:55.159 --> 00:01:57.480 that, and I did it for several years and then I met us off 27 00:01:57.640 --> 00:02:01.989 my partner, which he has a different background. He mainly focused. It 28 00:02:02.150 --> 00:02:08.069 was mainly focus on sales and business development and entrepreneurship in general and and he 29 00:02:08.110 --> 00:02:12.509 knew, he knew the needs in the market. And what beautiful was that 30 00:02:12.990 --> 00:02:16.500 when we started to work together, we completed each other very, very natively 31 00:02:16.979 --> 00:02:20.979 and we just we just said, okay, so let's do it together. 32 00:02:21.020 --> 00:02:23.659 I mean I had the experience in products and engineering, he need, the 33 00:02:23.699 --> 00:02:27.780 market need and we started to build a company and I think at the very 34 00:02:27.860 --> 00:02:31.330 first year there was no point that we said we need money to do it, 35 00:02:31.729 --> 00:02:34.849 at any even point. We said, okay, we can just do 36 00:02:34.969 --> 00:02:38.889 it and we can just build it. And since I met him, I 37 00:02:38.050 --> 00:02:43.289 met him in February, two thousand and sixteen, two months later, even 38 00:02:43.370 --> 00:02:46.439 less than that, the product was the first version of the product. It 39 00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:50.479 was completely, you know, broken and stuff was publicly available on the way. 40 00:02:50.560 --> 00:02:53.319 People started using it because we understood we can do it, we just 41 00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:57.280 need, you know, a month and a half and we and we launch. 42 00:02:57.439 --> 00:03:04.270 So we never felt that money was a barrier to to develop the product 43 00:03:04.789 --> 00:03:07.389 and I think everything we thought about was okay, so what the next step? 44 00:03:07.430 --> 00:03:09.789 How can we improve that? And you need to raise them that and 45 00:03:10.150 --> 00:03:14.340 nothing stopped us that to a position that we said, okay, we need 46 00:03:14.460 --> 00:03:17.860 researces to do that. We always saw that we are, it's very, 47 00:03:17.900 --> 00:03:21.780 very close to us, the next step and we just did that. We 48 00:03:21.900 --> 00:03:25.580 did it for several years and eventually grew the business. So yeah, so 49 00:03:27.169 --> 00:03:30.849 today you guys are a product led growth company. You have a freemium to 50 00:03:30.969 --> 00:03:36.569 premium sort of model. You folks can can go to your website, sign 51 00:03:36.610 --> 00:03:40.919 up for free and then have opportunities for higher tiers that they can they can 52 00:03:42.039 --> 00:03:46.960 self serve there. Do you think that starting with that fremium model from day 53 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:52.599 one allowed you guys to put something out there more quickly, to allow people 54 00:03:52.639 --> 00:03:55.349 to to try and get more feedback? Do you think starting with that, 55 00:03:55.389 --> 00:04:00.669 that fremium model right from day one kind of change your mentality so that you 56 00:04:00.870 --> 00:04:06.189 could just put something out there get feedback in possibly get more feedback than if 57 00:04:06.189 --> 00:04:12.740 you were trying to go a different route? Absolutely, I think that product 58 00:04:12.819 --> 00:04:16.899 led and fremium is the most efficient go to market approach that you can build. 59 00:04:17.540 --> 00:04:21.300 I mean, if you need a sales or sales team to sell for 60 00:04:21.500 --> 00:04:25.410 the very first dollars, you need to hire those sell people and you have 61 00:04:25.610 --> 00:04:29.970 long sales cycle and they go to market is more expensive and that's mostly suitabuil 62 00:04:30.089 --> 00:04:35.170 for enterprises. Solution that you know you're selling for let's say fifty thousand dollars 63 00:04:35.209 --> 00:04:41.720 and your contract and above those kind of company usually, and talking in general, 64 00:04:41.839 --> 00:04:45.279 doesn't start as boots trap. They need more resources to build this go 65 00:04:45.399 --> 00:04:50.959 to market approach. So but if you are providing a very simple free service, 66 00:04:51.910 --> 00:04:56.029 premium service at the beginning and people can just start using it and you 67 00:04:56.149 --> 00:05:00.310 don't need to tell them so much it. Just understand that, because it's 68 00:05:00.310 --> 00:05:04.269 a simple and like a consumer experience, you can finally and eventually find people 69 00:05:04.310 --> 00:05:08.699 that say, okay, I want to buy and then you just okay, 70 00:05:08.899 --> 00:05:13.459 so you sell them, but it doesn't requires from you so much. I 71 00:05:13.540 --> 00:05:16.139 think I stopt. My partner was the first cells rip pollution for the first 72 00:05:16.259 --> 00:05:20.339 six months and after six months is we hired the first seals rip, but 73 00:05:20.420 --> 00:05:25.569 we were already five people in the company. The very first were developers. 74 00:05:26.089 --> 00:05:30.329 So I think that the fremium allows you to grow very, very efficiently, 75 00:05:30.970 --> 00:05:35.160 and I think that it's also the expectation of the customers today. Seventy five 76 00:05:35.240 --> 00:05:39.879 percent of the people today, according to you know things that we were re 77 00:05:40.040 --> 00:05:45.000 read, expect to self educate themselves and not be educated by SELSDRIP. So 78 00:05:45.519 --> 00:05:48.399 it's exactly what we did. You make a really good distinction. They're yearning 79 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:53.629 for for early stage founders to kind of think through, okay, what is 80 00:05:53.709 --> 00:05:57.829 the product that we're building. What is the typical annual contract value and, 81 00:05:57.990 --> 00:06:00.629 like you said, kind of not K annually. That could be one of 82 00:06:00.709 --> 00:06:06.180 those big criteria as they're kind of making their procon list of the bootstrapped route 83 00:06:06.459 --> 00:06:11.579 versus raising funding, because you you make a really good point that if it's 84 00:06:11.779 --> 00:06:15.180 if it's under that the way that the market is going to want to buy 85 00:06:15.259 --> 00:06:19.490 the product and educate themselves and the way that you can iterate faster on the 86 00:06:19.569 --> 00:06:25.930 product might lend itself to to bootstrapping. Have there been some points in you 87 00:06:26.089 --> 00:06:30.689 and your cofounders journey where I'm sure there have been some late nights and some 88 00:06:30.889 --> 00:06:33.319 thoughts of Ah, if we just raise some money, that this would be 89 00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:39.399 a little bit easier? What's your advice for other founders who are maybe they're 90 00:06:39.439 --> 00:06:43.160 sitting there and they're making that procon list right now or they're going down the 91 00:06:43.560 --> 00:06:47.910 bootstrap route and you want to help them go into it Eyes Wide Open? 92 00:06:48.029 --> 00:06:53.949 What are some of the challenges with bootstrapping that you don't face with raising capital 93 00:06:54.110 --> 00:06:57.670 that you think other folks they need to have? They need to have the 94 00:06:57.790 --> 00:07:01.220 blinders off and their eyes wide open to see some of those pitfalls or those 95 00:07:01.259 --> 00:07:04.259 potholes in the road up ahead of them so that they can navigate it. 96 00:07:04.660 --> 00:07:10.139 Yeah, so that's great question. I think that from my experience, the 97 00:07:10.259 --> 00:07:15.329 reason why company succeeded is not necessarily because you have resources. I think resources 98 00:07:15.410 --> 00:07:20.089 are are very important and there are kind of companies that must have resources to 99 00:07:20.209 --> 00:07:24.930 grow, especially if you are you have a long sale cycle or you build 100 00:07:25.930 --> 00:07:30.199 infrastructure or you manufacture anything, you know, any hard work. But in 101 00:07:30.279 --> 00:07:34.279 a lot of cases the reason why company succeeded or not is because they were 102 00:07:34.920 --> 00:07:40.160 focused enough on the most important thing they need to do and not spread it 103 00:07:40.480 --> 00:07:45.350 into too many initiatives simultaneously. And I think many companies that raises money first 104 00:07:45.389 --> 00:07:48.589 spend a lot of time reaching out and get the money. So they are 105 00:07:48.629 --> 00:07:51.589 not focused on the business. They're focus on getting the resource, not about 106 00:07:51.589 --> 00:07:57.230 the real value they need to develop. And second ones, they have resources. 107 00:07:57.750 --> 00:08:00.259 A lot of times it's like, okay, have resources, so I 108 00:08:00.339 --> 00:08:05.100 can do many things and they start open a lot of initiatives and the focus 109 00:08:05.300 --> 00:08:09.180 and they lost focused. And I think today, when you can sell to 110 00:08:09.300 --> 00:08:13.129 anyone in the world, any and everyone in the world with a computer can 111 00:08:13.290 --> 00:08:16.930 open his own company right and you can sell to everyone, because it's very 112 00:08:16.970 --> 00:08:20.449 easy to develop a website or develop an application and and publish it on the 113 00:08:20.490 --> 00:08:24.810 APP store and even charge. Apple makes the charge for you. Or you 114 00:08:24.889 --> 00:08:28.240 can connect stripe with three line of code. You can just do it very 115 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:31.879 easily today. Just you don't need to get on a plane. Today you 116 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:35.559 cannot. You can do it if you want, but you you don't need 117 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:39.080 to get on a plane to sell something. You can just put it out 118 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:43.230 there, connect the credit card and self and people have to day. People 119 00:08:43.350 --> 00:08:46.830 used to buy software. I don't think this was the case ten years ago, 120 00:08:46.909 --> 00:08:50.389 fifteen years ago, only companies butt software. Individual today buying software and 121 00:08:50.549 --> 00:08:54.779 there are many more San bus than ever before and they're willing to buy software 122 00:08:54.820 --> 00:09:00.580 as well to make the life easier. So I think that the gap today, 123 00:09:00.700 --> 00:09:03.860 it's very the time to mark it is much shorter. Is shorter than 124 00:09:03.940 --> 00:09:07.980 ever. You have many more people and Essmbes that are willing to buy your 125 00:09:07.019 --> 00:09:13.210 software and on. You need to do is focus on building the right solution 126 00:09:13.370 --> 00:09:16.570 for the problem that you have. Focus is on. So the beautiful thing 127 00:09:16.610 --> 00:09:20.850 about boots trapping is that you don't have a choice. It's not that you 128 00:09:20.970 --> 00:09:26.039 have money and you can focus on other stuff. If you want solve that 129 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:28.759 problem, you want to grow and if you want make an impact, you 130 00:09:28.840 --> 00:09:31.679 won't hire the next person that going to replace you with this job. You 131 00:09:31.720 --> 00:09:37.799 will continue as a founder, do your own. So what's happened is just 132 00:09:37.879 --> 00:09:39.789 you just solve that. If you don't have a problem, you don't have 133 00:09:39.830 --> 00:09:43.669 a choice. You eventually solve that and then, once you solve it, 134 00:09:43.830 --> 00:09:48.110 you bring someone and you know why you hired him and and the and the 135 00:09:48.190 --> 00:09:50.710 most beautiful side effect is that if you did it yourself at the beginning, 136 00:09:52.309 --> 00:09:56.500 you can easily monitor and help this person to succeed in the job because you 137 00:09:56.620 --> 00:09:58.820 know the fundamentals, you've been there. You build at the beginning on the 138 00:09:58.860 --> 00:10:03.379 right track. Yeah, it's something I've heard Chris Ronzio, the founder of 139 00:10:03.500 --> 00:10:07.250 train, you all talk about a lot going through this process as you're scaling 140 00:10:07.289 --> 00:10:13.210 a team, having these three steps. Do it, document it, delegate 141 00:10:13.330 --> 00:10:16.850 it and when you are the one who's doing it and you're not just Oh, 142 00:10:16.129 --> 00:10:18.529 all right, we can hire ahead of sales, we can hire ahead 143 00:10:18.570 --> 00:10:22.200 of marketing, when you're bootstrapping, you've been doing those things right. The 144 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:26.480 founders have to sell the founders have to find a way to market in some 145 00:10:26.679 --> 00:10:31.679 form or fashion, whether that's running paid search or doing some organic on on 146 00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:35.679 Linkedin or whatever, and so you can you're you're in the weeds doing it, 147 00:10:35.190 --> 00:10:39.669 document what you've done and now you can delegate it and and let them 148 00:10:39.710 --> 00:10:43.950 kind of outshine you in that function. So I think that's really important. 149 00:10:43.990 --> 00:10:50.220 The other piece that you kept mentioning their Yoni is focus and being a part 150 00:10:50.299 --> 00:10:54.259 of a fast growing, bootstraps start up here at sweet fish, where I 151 00:10:54.340 --> 00:10:56.460 came on two years ago as the full timer number four and today we're about 152 00:10:56.460 --> 00:11:01.860 twenty five people two years later. Is something that we struggle to balance, 153 00:11:03.059 --> 00:11:07.450 is chasing a new opportunity that still feels like it's within our focus and staying 154 00:11:07.610 --> 00:11:11.250 close to to the focus that we have. So have you guys had any 155 00:11:11.289 --> 00:11:16.730 moments you only where it's either hey, we could chase this new product feature 156 00:11:16.809 --> 00:11:20.080 that might kind of help us go up market, or where you had a 157 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:26.200 decision to go after something and you wrestled with that. Does this dilute our 158 00:11:26.279 --> 00:11:30.960 focus, or is it going after the right opportunity, and how did you 159 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:35.070 guys make those decisions? That's a beautiful question because this. We did this 160 00:11:35.190 --> 00:11:39.509 mistake several time. I think you know what. I'm an entrepreneur and I 161 00:11:39.629 --> 00:11:43.629 love to build stuff and a lot of times you just have the fashion to 162 00:11:43.750 --> 00:11:48.299 build the next great product for the company. But the mistake that we did, 163 00:11:48.379 --> 00:11:52.019 and we honestly did it two times after up until we learn that, 164 00:11:52.820 --> 00:11:56.659 is that we developed something that was for a different persona, for a different, 165 00:11:58.139 --> 00:12:01.379 you know, user. We have a big community of almost half a 166 00:12:01.450 --> 00:12:07.129 million users. That's uses Lusha and and more than twelvezero customers. It's uses 167 00:12:07.169 --> 00:12:11.049 Lusha, and when we build a product, what that was wasn't the need 168 00:12:11.129 --> 00:12:16.279 of those half million customers. We we did the mistake that we are actually 169 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:20.720 starting from zero, we're not leveraging anything that we did before and we're not 170 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:26.200 helping them to make the world and their job better. So, yeah, 171 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:30.029 and who is? Who is that persona that you guys primarily serve? And 172 00:12:30.269 --> 00:12:33.149 what was the other persona you guys started building something for? I mean just 173 00:12:33.269 --> 00:12:37.190 to get real tactical, because I love a good mistake or fail your story, 174 00:12:37.190 --> 00:12:41.029 because I think that's where we learn the most right. So walk us 175 00:12:41.070 --> 00:12:43.389 through the details of that, if you don't mind getting into the weeds a 176 00:12:43.389 --> 00:12:46.580 little bit. Yeah, yeah, so I think first our persona is sells 177 00:12:46.620 --> 00:12:52.220 representative, as drs, as everyone who sell, and I think that okay. 178 00:12:52.259 --> 00:12:56.820 So we wanted to build a solution for marketiers and that's makes sense. 179 00:12:56.899 --> 00:13:00.210 Marketing provide lead to sell. So if we can solve with the market there 180 00:13:00.289 --> 00:13:05.450 is then as will love that. The fact that it sounds good not necessarily 181 00:13:05.529 --> 00:13:09.490 worked on live because when we told those a he's okay, so help us 182 00:13:09.529 --> 00:13:13.279 getting through your marketing department did they didn't really care and we did this mistake 183 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:18.799 with market heres and we did the not a mistake. We sales ups. 184 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:22.919 And don't get me wrong, I think both product can succeed and both products 185 00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:26.669 are great product and we can. We got good feedback, but we had 186 00:13:26.750 --> 00:13:31.509 to do a new go to market, the new user requisition challenge, parallel 187 00:13:31.590 --> 00:13:35.870 to the existing one, and that's actually means you're building two companies, seemul 188 00:13:35.870 --> 00:13:39.669 dennisly, or you are resetting part of your success and start from zero back 189 00:13:39.710 --> 00:13:45.100 again. And when you are small, and we're considered as small yet one 190 00:13:45.139 --> 00:13:50.419 hundred employees, you just need to you cannot open too many initiatives that are 191 00:13:50.500 --> 00:13:56.250 not connected in the core hey, everybody, logan with sweet fish here. 192 00:13:56.649 --> 00:14:01.649 You probably already know that we think you should start a podcast if you haven't 193 00:14:01.690 --> 00:14:05.330 already. But what if you have and you're asking these kinds of questions? 194 00:14:05.769 --> 00:14:09.679 How much has our podcast impacted revenue this year? House our sales team actually 195 00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:15.399 leveraging the PODCAST content? If you can't answer these questions, you're actually not 196 00:14:15.639 --> 00:14:20.799 alone. This is why cast it created the very first content marketing platform made 197 00:14:20.799 --> 00:14:26.750 specifically for BEDB podcasting. Now you can more easily search and share your audio 198 00:14:26.870 --> 00:14:31.470 content while getting greater visibility into the impact of your podcast. The marketing teams 199 00:14:31.549 --> 00:14:37.950 at Drift Terminus and here at sweetfish have started using casted to get more value 200 00:14:37.950 --> 00:14:41.059 out of our podcasts, and you probably can to. You can check out 201 00:14:41.059 --> 00:14:48.980 the product in action and casted dot US growth. That's sea steed dot US 202 00:14:50.980 --> 00:14:56.169 growth. All right, let's get back to the show. So I think. 203 00:14:56.210 --> 00:15:01.409 I think the learning there is if there's a new opportunity, the questions 204 00:15:01.490 --> 00:15:07.440 you need to ask yourself as does this help serve our key persona that we're 205 00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:11.799 solving a problem for? Does it serve them better, or are we trying 206 00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:15.080 to serve someone else, even if they're the seat right next to that key 207 00:15:15.159 --> 00:15:20.159 persona, because going deeper with that one persona is going to serve you well 208 00:15:20.360 --> 00:15:24.309 to go further faster, but going over one seat can can slow you down 209 00:15:24.350 --> 00:15:28.429 because, as you said, you're starting from scratching a lot of different ways. 210 00:15:28.470 --> 00:15:31.389 You're starting from scratch with word of mouth, with brand recognition, with 211 00:15:31.830 --> 00:15:37.340 understanding the customer. There are a lot of things right. Something that came 212 00:15:37.419 --> 00:15:41.259 up in a conversation you and I had before we hopped on the podcast. 213 00:15:41.259 --> 00:15:45.740 If you expect, you only was other times we're that we're critical for you 214 00:15:45.820 --> 00:15:50.889 guys to say no, and saying no seems like it's always the antithesis to 215 00:15:52.090 --> 00:15:56.169 growth, but there have been a few key things that you guys have found 216 00:15:56.210 --> 00:15:58.970 that you said no to in the early stages that actually helped you grow. 217 00:16:00.090 --> 00:16:03.129 Can you can you talk us through some of those? Yeah, so I 218 00:16:03.250 --> 00:16:07.720 think one of the main things that we did we want to play the volume 219 00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:11.759 game. We since the beginning we wanted to build a company that served the 220 00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:17.360 mass market, can bring as many users as possible and serve them all together. 221 00:16:17.559 --> 00:16:21.309 So, for example, and this I guess many companies are doing, 222 00:16:21.909 --> 00:16:26.990 we said no to costume features, to specific customer. We never develop a 223 00:16:26.070 --> 00:16:30.909 feature to specific customer. If these feature is relevant for their rest or for 224 00:16:32.070 --> 00:16:34.659 the mass majority, we did that. Otherwise we just said sorry, we're 225 00:16:34.740 --> 00:16:40.059 not doing that. The second thing is that we said no to custom contracts 226 00:16:40.100 --> 00:16:44.659 at the beginning and we even said no to why it transfers at the beginning, 227 00:16:44.700 --> 00:16:48.370 and this is maybe the most unique one and the reason we did that. 228 00:16:48.250 --> 00:16:52.450 I mean, ninety percent of our revenue came from, you know, 229 00:16:52.929 --> 00:16:56.929 credit card recurring revenue, monthly or annual contract and even more than that. 230 00:16:57.129 --> 00:17:03.120 And sometimes companies wanted us to accept where transfer and the very beginning we didn't 231 00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:07.839 have a collection department, we didn't have someone to follow up and make this 232 00:17:07.160 --> 00:17:11.079 you know process and make sure that the recurring will happen, and so we 233 00:17:11.200 --> 00:17:17.349 just said No. And we lost some deals because of that, that's for 234 00:17:17.509 --> 00:17:21.069 sure, but we keept it simple. We keep the process really simple and 235 00:17:21.150 --> 00:17:26.670 we scaled the the main final the main stores of accepting payments, and most 236 00:17:26.710 --> 00:17:30.779 of the customers that we said no to eventually but with gradit card we did 237 00:17:30.900 --> 00:17:36.579 lost some, but we just didn't open a new position in the company because 238 00:17:36.579 --> 00:17:38.579 we didn't want to open these focus we understood that this is not in the 239 00:17:38.660 --> 00:17:44.569 critical pot. Yet today we do accept and today we do also custom contracts. 240 00:17:44.690 --> 00:17:47.569 But you know, it took us a while to do it in the 241 00:17:47.650 --> 00:17:51.930 for the first two years we just said No. We didn't do any everything 242 00:17:52.009 --> 00:17:55.849 that you know the customer want. Yeah, sometimes saying no allows you. 243 00:17:56.089 --> 00:18:00.160 It comes back to what you were talking about earlier in retaining your focus, 244 00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:03.400 because every time that you say yes to something that might add some revenue in 245 00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:08.240 the short term, it's slowing you down to where you can't go further faster 246 00:18:08.440 --> 00:18:12.750 with your key demographic and with your key target and the folks that are more 247 00:18:12.869 --> 00:18:17.869 than willing to, you know, kind of fall right into that flow that 248 00:18:17.950 --> 00:18:22.990 you've set up to all right self serve credit card payments very, very easy 249 00:18:23.109 --> 00:18:27.660 for both you and the customer, and focusing on where is the least friction, 250 00:18:29.099 --> 00:18:33.019 because that that is going to help us continue to scale. You only 251 00:18:33.140 --> 00:18:36.099 as you guys look at the next phase. You've talked a little bit about 252 00:18:36.420 --> 00:18:40.140 the early stages with you and your founder and getting something out there and just 253 00:18:40.299 --> 00:18:44.690 starting with a fremium model from day one. Saying no two things that allowed 254 00:18:44.769 --> 00:18:48.769 you to to keep your focus and how you balance that you mentioned. You 255 00:18:48.849 --> 00:18:51.369 know, some things are changing right now. As you guys kind of look 256 00:18:51.369 --> 00:18:55.250 at the next stage. You're at a hundred or so employees. I don't 257 00:18:55.250 --> 00:18:57.400 know if we've talked about kind of where you guys are from a revenue perspective. 258 00:18:57.400 --> 00:19:00.680 If you want to share that, you can, but curious to see 259 00:19:00.759 --> 00:19:04.519 kind of where has been the tipping point where things start to feel different. 260 00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:07.920 Okay, this is a new phase and these are the things that are kind 261 00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:12.309 of going to change in this phase for others out there that are maybe kind 262 00:19:12.349 --> 00:19:17.349 of in the same stage of their growth story as you guys are at Lucia. 263 00:19:17.829 --> 00:19:19.549 Yeah, I think so. So the first the first step, as 264 00:19:19.589 --> 00:19:25.059 you mentioned, was building the right product, making sure we're providing good value 265 00:19:25.220 --> 00:19:29.460 to the market and focus on that solution and only. I think the next 266 00:19:29.579 --> 00:19:34.539 phase is and and most of the the traffic came organically because the product was 267 00:19:34.660 --> 00:19:37.890 good, was free to use and people just talked about it and spread it 268 00:19:38.009 --> 00:19:45.410 round. And the next phase is just pushing the snowball faster, proactively with 269 00:19:45.609 --> 00:19:49.930 more resources. So we fop. Until now we did everything with organic scale. 270 00:19:51.849 --> 00:19:56.160 I think the next phase is, okay, how do we build an 271 00:19:56.400 --> 00:20:03.079 efficient and scalable go to market or use the requisition channel to push this snowball 272 00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:06.759 faster. And and you know that scales everything around. The sales, the 273 00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:11.309 customer success, the s upward there and the everything around would should be scaled 274 00:20:11.630 --> 00:20:18.150 accordingly. But I think accelerating the growth with more resources is definitely the next 275 00:20:18.190 --> 00:20:22.299 phase of Lucia. Besides, I mean adding more resources in addition to the 276 00:20:22.339 --> 00:20:26.180 organic growth and and that, and do it defficiently. I think that's a 277 00:20:26.259 --> 00:20:30.940 challenge. This is a muscle for company. Doing an efficient and having an 278 00:20:30.980 --> 00:20:34.809 efficient go to productive will go to market channel. It's something that we're starting 279 00:20:34.849 --> 00:20:38.650 to do and and we're still in the beginning of the journey, but definitely 280 00:20:38.769 --> 00:20:42.690 the the next big thing for us to build a really big company. Yeah, 281 00:20:42.930 --> 00:20:48.089 and and then it kind of becomes do I build out the marketing function 282 00:20:48.529 --> 00:20:52.960 first and then and then sales and then customer success in tandem being a being 283 00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:59.160 a product led growth company. I imagine that customer successes has always been a 284 00:20:59.240 --> 00:21:03.720 priority throughout all of those phases because if you're if you're getting people in quickly 285 00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:07.829 then and they're paying you, then you can start to invest in customer success 286 00:21:07.990 --> 00:21:12.869 early what are your thoughts on kind of balancing investing in marketing first versus sales? 287 00:21:14.069 --> 00:21:17.430 Where are you guys out there? There's sometimes some debate right and I 288 00:21:17.589 --> 00:21:21.619 think some some companies get it wrong trying to all right, we're really going 289 00:21:21.660 --> 00:21:25.099 to add scale, we're going to start to add a bunch of sales headcount, 290 00:21:25.140 --> 00:21:29.140 especially with a funded company. That's the route they go right, and 291 00:21:29.220 --> 00:21:32.700 then they bring a marketer in on top of it. How did you make 292 00:21:32.779 --> 00:21:37.329 the decision between all right, I'm going to invest in marketing and sales as 293 00:21:37.329 --> 00:21:41.569 a function together, or marketing first? What was that decision and what does 294 00:21:41.609 --> 00:21:45.609 that look like for you guys right now? So we already have a self 295 00:21:45.690 --> 00:21:49.480 department and Customer Success Department even before we had any marketing expenses, because the 296 00:21:49.799 --> 00:21:57.079 the product lead and the fremium generated Twentyzero new registrations per months, and so 297 00:21:57.440 --> 00:22:02.269 we do have enough leads and we do have no customers that we can sell 298 00:22:02.349 --> 00:22:07.190 to. So Self Department Customer Success Department are already exist, but they need 299 00:22:07.269 --> 00:22:11.710 to scale. For sure. I'm one of those who said that if your 300 00:22:11.829 --> 00:22:15.500 product must have marketing to grow, you have some problem in your products. 301 00:22:17.019 --> 00:22:19.420 And just to add an exception. If you need to educate the market. 302 00:22:19.660 --> 00:22:22.980 That's an accepted you probably need marketing expenses at the beginning, but if you 303 00:22:23.019 --> 00:22:27.660 are solving existing problem and your product is good, you don't need a lot 304 00:22:27.819 --> 00:22:33.289 to start, you know, rolling the snowball and not saying about the velocity 305 00:22:33.369 --> 00:22:37.769 at I'm talking about that it should work if it's good. And so I 306 00:22:37.970 --> 00:22:42.369 one of those who said marketing is only when you need to grow and scale 307 00:22:42.609 --> 00:22:48.799 really fast beyond the organic but you need to spend it when you already have 308 00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:53.519 a product, market speed probably, and you already have a product that's convert 309 00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:56.720 and generate revenue. So you can measure the our way. Yeah, if 310 00:22:56.759 --> 00:23:00.630 you are the very, very, very first step, you need marketing. 311 00:23:00.309 --> 00:23:03.309 I think you need to think if the product is deliver because the very first 312 00:23:03.309 --> 00:23:07.630 customer you don't need marketing. You do your own. You're getting there. 313 00:23:07.750 --> 00:23:10.190 You show it to someone, you put it in groups, I don't know, 314 00:23:10.269 --> 00:23:12.819 in Linkedin, facebook, whatever. You you just bring them very first 315 00:23:14.259 --> 00:23:19.380 hundreds by by yourself and if if it didn't stick, maybe the products bad 316 00:23:19.460 --> 00:23:23.059 goop. Yeah, yeah, if you don't get people kind of really nodding 317 00:23:23.099 --> 00:23:29.490 along with the story as you tell the story of the problem and the solution 318 00:23:29.730 --> 00:23:33.410 that that they're offering in kind of those one to one interactions, as the 319 00:23:33.450 --> 00:23:37.930 founders are are doing the handhand combat. Then then there's maybe a problem, 320 00:23:37.009 --> 00:23:41.640 and you make a good point, if you are designing a new category and 321 00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:45.200 blazing a new trail, you probably need marketing to help, you know, 322 00:23:45.400 --> 00:23:51.279 tell that story and build that ground swell. But I think there's in a 323 00:23:51.319 --> 00:23:55.000 lot of different applications there's true to what you're saying. Here at Sweet Fish 324 00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:59.349 we've been around for five years. We've really started to kind of see our 325 00:23:59.549 --> 00:24:03.910 next level of growth over the last two and we've been doing it by very 326 00:24:03.990 --> 00:24:07.869 organic just brand awareness, that word of mouth. I mean you could say 327 00:24:07.990 --> 00:24:11.099 it's a form of marketing, but we've never had a full marketing function. 328 00:24:11.180 --> 00:24:15.940 I mean it was James, our founder, being active on Linkedin and talking 329 00:24:15.980 --> 00:24:18.900 about what we do and then, you know, people coming to us and 330 00:24:18.940 --> 00:24:22.700 then when I came on board, all right, we have sales to capitalize 331 00:24:22.779 --> 00:24:27.009 on that inbound demand. But up until recently when we hired Dan Sanchez, 332 00:24:27.089 --> 00:24:33.009 our director of audience growth, who's helping grow podcasts and also doing some tactical 333 00:24:33.529 --> 00:24:37.650 demand, Jin and Legion for Sweet Fish. We didn't have anything in between 334 00:24:37.769 --> 00:24:41.319 that brand and sales, and so I would say you know that brand or 335 00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:45.160 word of mouth or product led and sales. You can be successful with that 336 00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:51.839 and then adding in marketing in between to do more efficient cost per acquisition on 337 00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:56.470 paid channels and and those very tactical things to just add fuel to the fire. 338 00:24:56.549 --> 00:24:57.990 But the fires already kind of started. So I I see that, 339 00:24:59.069 --> 00:25:03.349 even though we're a services company and you guys are product company, there are 340 00:25:03.390 --> 00:25:07.619 some definite similarities in our own growth story to what you guys are talking about, 341 00:25:07.619 --> 00:25:11.460 because we're bootstrapt as well. You only this has been fantastic. If 342 00:25:11.619 --> 00:25:17.140 anybody listening to this they're in sales and marketing or there a CEO or a 343 00:25:17.220 --> 00:25:21.140 founder and they want to continue to hear from you or stay connected with you 344 00:25:21.220 --> 00:25:25.130 maybe ask any follow up questions, what's the best way for anybody to reach 345 00:25:25.170 --> 00:25:29.250 out to you or the Lucia team to stay connected? So I'm, if 346 00:25:29.289 --> 00:25:32.609 ever have been, in every channel that you want, whether it's Blamdan or 347 00:25:32.650 --> 00:25:34.329 whether it's my email address. You can get it on Luche as well, 348 00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:40.599 like any other email maybe and industry. So yeah, I would love to 349 00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:45.480 help answer. Love to talk to powder is and which you know, would 350 00:25:45.519 --> 00:25:47.759 love to help. I love it. You only thank you so much for 351 00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:49.789 your time today. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks, great 352 00:25:49.910 --> 00:25:56.309 time. Is Your buyer a BBB marketer? If so, you should think 353 00:25:56.349 --> 00:26:00.869 about sponsoring this podcast. BB growth gets downloaded over a hundred and thirty thousand 354 00:26:00.910 --> 00:26:06.299 times each month and our listeners are marketing decisionmakers. If it sounds interesting, 355 00:26:06.339 --> 00:26:08.619 Sin Logan and email logan at sweet fish Mediacom