1349: How to Optimize Your Email Newsletters for Better UX w/ Katie Mitchell

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.320 --> 00:00:08.390 Welcome back to be to be growth. I'm looking lyles with sweet fish media. 2 00:00:08.429 --> 00:00:12.550 I'm joined today by Katie Mitchell. She is an experienced beat me marketing 3 00:00:12.589 --> 00:00:16.789 leader. She was formerly the marketing director and head of de Mansion over at 4 00:00:16.870 --> 00:00:20.309 ever five. She's a new linkedin friend of mine. I've been seeing her 5 00:00:20.309 --> 00:00:23.059 all over my feed. Katie, welcome to the show. How you doing 6 00:00:23.100 --> 00:00:26.420 today? You good. How are you doing? I am doing fantastic. 7 00:00:26.500 --> 00:00:30.059 Katie. Are you team coke or team Pepsi? That is something that we've 8 00:00:30.059 --> 00:00:32.619 got to know about most of our guests here on baby growth. I am 9 00:00:32.659 --> 00:00:37.409 team coffee. Team Coffee, yes, all right, as long as you're 10 00:00:37.450 --> 00:00:40.810 getting your caffeine somehow. I imagine with you know as much as I see 11 00:00:40.850 --> 00:00:45.009 you all over linkedin. There's got to be some caffeine driving that and driving 12 00:00:45.049 --> 00:00:48.649 some some inspiration. And you know, as a fellow parents, I know 13 00:00:48.810 --> 00:00:53.719 how important caffeine is to our daytoday, especially this year. Right. Yeah, 14 00:00:53.759 --> 00:00:57.079 my husband doesn't bring coffee and I constantly ask him. I don't understand 15 00:00:57.079 --> 00:01:00.000 how you're even living on this planet, but yeah, he is a big 16 00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:03.469 long for me. I am with you right there, Katie. Well, 17 00:01:03.510 --> 00:01:06.750 Katy, we're going to be talking about you. You kicked off a really 18 00:01:06.870 --> 00:01:11.269 interesting conversation on linkedin maybe a week or so ago about not sending people to 19 00:01:11.310 --> 00:01:15.390 your blog, but sending your blog to people, and it really comes from 20 00:01:15.469 --> 00:01:19.260 this idea that you're very passionate about, that is, trying new things as 21 00:01:19.299 --> 00:01:22.900 a marketing leader and not just kind of throwing all sorts of Spaghetti against the 22 00:01:22.980 --> 00:01:26.780 wall, but being on the lookout for trends and how we can adapt the 23 00:01:26.900 --> 00:01:30.540 way that we've always done things. Can you talk a little bit about how 24 00:01:30.900 --> 00:01:34.689 that has become such a crux of your approach in bb marketing and then we'll 25 00:01:34.689 --> 00:01:37.450 kind of break down this email conversation, because I think it's a good one 26 00:01:37.489 --> 00:01:42.209 to dig into tactically. Yeah, I'm I'm on marketing and user experience nerds. 27 00:01:42.489 --> 00:01:46.409 I think part of the reason I love marketing is because it sort of 28 00:01:46.450 --> 00:01:51.719 breaks down human existence. Since your experience, and so thinking about why we 29 00:01:51.799 --> 00:01:53.599 do things that we do right, and so you can sort of think it 30 00:01:53.799 --> 00:01:59.319 bit in two ways. There's the psychological component, right, so if a 31 00:01:59.439 --> 00:02:02.909 message resonates with you, you might do something because it's bakes to you or 32 00:02:04.349 --> 00:02:07.069 it hits on an emotional level. And because of that you decide to take 33 00:02:07.069 --> 00:02:09.110 action, right. But then there's the user experience side, right, which 34 00:02:09.189 --> 00:02:14.550 is very important when it comes to digital marketing as well, which is how 35 00:02:14.710 --> 00:02:19.379 easy you make it for people to do things. And because technology is changing 36 00:02:19.460 --> 00:02:25.060 so quickly, there's areas get crowded, right, and then people stop doing 37 00:02:25.139 --> 00:02:29.419 things, maybe not because of the content but because something comes along with a 38 00:02:29.500 --> 00:02:32.810 better user experience. And so user experience is really embedded in a lot of 39 00:02:34.129 --> 00:02:38.090 marketing and I don't think enough marketers pay attention to how important that is. 40 00:02:38.289 --> 00:02:40.610 And so I think when you think about new trends on the horizon and think 41 00:02:40.610 --> 00:02:47.400 about trying different stuff, a lot of times you're not necessarily changing the execution 42 00:02:47.520 --> 00:02:51.599 and from a content perspective, right, you're not really changing the message. 43 00:02:52.080 --> 00:02:58.479 You're just tinkering with the technology or how how the delivery channels have changed. 44 00:02:58.909 --> 00:03:04.389 And and I think it's really important for marketers to always have an eye out 45 00:03:04.909 --> 00:03:08.710 for what's on the horizon, what's coming next in that space, right, 46 00:03:08.870 --> 00:03:13.500 because you don't even realize it. It's sort of like watching your parents, 47 00:03:13.539 --> 00:03:15.979 like watching your kids grow up. So you know you all of a sudden 48 00:03:16.020 --> 00:03:20.419 turn around and then your kids are five right or ten and you're like, 49 00:03:20.699 --> 00:03:23.219 how did it just happen? Wasn't I there the whole yes, I've been 50 00:03:23.300 --> 00:03:29.330 there. Yeah, yeah, you don't feel your evolution right, but eventually, 51 00:03:29.810 --> 00:03:32.090 and it's happening faster and faster, that the beginning of two thousand and 52 00:03:32.090 --> 00:03:37.090 sixteen or seventeen, you're doing things one way and then in two thousand and 53 00:03:37.090 --> 00:03:39.969 twenty you're doing things another way, and so it's important that marketers can sort 54 00:03:39.969 --> 00:03:46.039 of see the future and try new things. And I think one of the 55 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:51.639 reasons that marketers are sometimes afraid to trying things is because they're they're stuck in 56 00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:54.400 the way that they're doing things today and maybe their company has had success with 57 00:03:54.439 --> 00:03:58.550 them in the past, right, or whatever it is, but they don't 58 00:03:58.550 --> 00:04:02.310 feel they don't feel as strong of a desire to go investigate the future. 59 00:04:02.469 --> 00:04:05.909 And so that's, for me, a big era of marketing. I think 60 00:04:05.990 --> 00:04:10.379 is really fun right, is to sort of look on the horizon see what's 61 00:04:10.379 --> 00:04:14.699 coming and to dabble in it and to see if it's a good user experience 62 00:04:14.740 --> 00:04:17.459 for you right, because if it's a good user for you, it's probably 63 00:04:17.779 --> 00:04:20.980 going to be a good user experience for your customer, and not to say 64 00:04:20.980 --> 00:04:24.449 that every good user experience is going to be the right thing to do for 65 00:04:24.610 --> 00:04:27.209 marketing, because you also to think about your company goals and i's a lot 66 00:04:27.250 --> 00:04:30.529 of things that go into that. But a lot of times humans sort of 67 00:04:30.649 --> 00:04:35.689 rush to the thing that is really easy and really enjoyable and then they start 68 00:04:35.769 --> 00:04:39.600 doing it right. Agreed to go. I feel that it's like instagram stories 69 00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:42.319 right is like someone that I come back to a lot. It's like, 70 00:04:42.560 --> 00:04:45.680 I never thought I was going to use instagram stories and then it came out 71 00:04:45.720 --> 00:04:49.360 with that and I slowly, slowly started changing my behavior and now I use 72 00:04:49.399 --> 00:04:53.949 it right. And probably maybe tick tock is another really good example. And 73 00:04:54.069 --> 00:04:59.069 so for companies to start feeling that with at the same time with consumer feels 74 00:04:59.110 --> 00:05:01.589 it and then to be able to understand, like how do they inject themselves 75 00:05:01.629 --> 00:05:05.269 into that? Absolutely I think there are several important points out of what you 76 00:05:05.350 --> 00:05:09.899 just said. They're Katie, and I think one is that as marketers we 77 00:05:10.060 --> 00:05:15.620 have to always be part psychologist and part sociologist, thinking about how are these 78 00:05:15.699 --> 00:05:18.939 things going to resonate with an individual? What are kind of the trends in 79 00:05:19.060 --> 00:05:24.050 the way that people consume content, they interact with this technology, the way 80 00:05:24.129 --> 00:05:29.050 that they they open emails or the way that they click through an instagram story. 81 00:05:29.089 --> 00:05:30.529 How does that change? You know, I've seen things like in the 82 00:05:30.649 --> 00:05:36.000 weather channel APP or in the Netflix APP where you can see the user experience 83 00:05:36.199 --> 00:05:43.160 being affected by the phenomenon of instagram stories becoming such a normal part of Daytoday, 84 00:05:43.199 --> 00:05:46.160 life where you know it's the same sort of thing. You you hold 85 00:05:46.279 --> 00:05:48.199 to pause, you tap through to go to the next thing. So I 86 00:05:48.279 --> 00:05:53.670 think that's really important. I think kind of underlying all of this is there 87 00:05:53.709 --> 00:05:57.149 are some marketers who kind of love the new thing and some who tend to 88 00:05:57.790 --> 00:06:00.990 like the try it and true, and I think maybe that's a personality thing, 89 00:06:00.069 --> 00:06:03.300 that's an experience thing, but I think wherever you are on that spectrum 90 00:06:03.620 --> 00:06:10.300 there's always the is marketing really relevant? Is Marketing really driving demand? Or 91 00:06:10.459 --> 00:06:14.699 they kind of the arts and Crafts Department? And if you work for a 92 00:06:15.220 --> 00:06:17.810 company that kind of has that bent, it can be very easy to say, 93 00:06:18.129 --> 00:06:21.610 well, you know kind of the the Linkedin adds in the ebook campaign 94 00:06:21.689 --> 00:06:25.569 and the SDR follow up. It's tried and true. I really think that 95 00:06:25.689 --> 00:06:28.769 there's maybe a better way, but that's the way we've always done it and 96 00:06:28.850 --> 00:06:31.449 if I kind of go with the company line, then it's going to be 97 00:06:31.529 --> 00:06:34.399 safer. I'm not going to put my neck out there right and I think 98 00:06:34.759 --> 00:06:40.040 the marketers that are looking at what's happening and what is changing. You know, 99 00:06:40.079 --> 00:06:43.319 I was just hearing Guy Tano Dinardi and Chris Walker Jam on this on 100 00:06:43.480 --> 00:06:46.910 demand Jin live and you know, just pointing out the fact that, man, 101 00:06:46.949 --> 00:06:51.269 you could scroll linked in and find everybody running the same linkedin add playbook 102 00:06:51.629 --> 00:06:56.230 and you can zig when everyone else is zagging, but it takes a little 103 00:06:56.269 --> 00:07:00.430 bit of courage to do and it takes a little bit of getting over that 104 00:07:00.550 --> 00:07:03.180 risk aversion. So let's go. Let's go to this one example, Katie. 105 00:07:03.300 --> 00:07:08.500 What prompted you to think about this idea and what did you mean by 106 00:07:09.019 --> 00:07:13.660 sending your blog to people versus sending people to your blog? And then I'd 107 00:07:13.660 --> 00:07:16.810 love to break down some examples and then talk about how this kind of relates 108 00:07:16.850 --> 00:07:19.730 to that higher level theme that you open en up with. Yeah, for 109 00:07:19.850 --> 00:07:26.129 sure. So I think I grew up as an email marketer. I started 110 00:07:27.129 --> 00:07:31.680 my career sort of building out database programs, sending email marketing building content strategy 111 00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:35.560 for companies. And in two thousand and thirteen, when I really started with 112 00:07:35.720 --> 00:07:40.879 that a little bit earlier, you know, it was the playbook that you 113 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:45.430 were talking about right where, you know, we would write a blog, 114 00:07:45.990 --> 00:07:48.910 published a blog, send it out the email, direct people back to our 115 00:07:48.990 --> 00:07:53.269 site. Hopefully when they went came back to our site, they would do 116 00:07:53.310 --> 00:07:56.389 x by anything do. Would remark at them with display out right, and 117 00:07:56.470 --> 00:08:00.899 so like that's the ecosystem that exists. Right. But emails crowded now and 118 00:08:01.019 --> 00:08:03.819 the more and more I have surveyed people on my linkedin profile feel stal in 119 00:08:03.860 --> 00:08:07.220 some marketers. So obviously it's a tiny subset. But like thirty five percent 120 00:08:07.259 --> 00:08:11.100 of people said they had an empty inbox. Right, they do in book 121 00:08:11.100 --> 00:08:13.649 zero. I would assume that those people don't have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds 122 00:08:13.649 --> 00:08:16.529 of company emails coming into their Inbox, because then they wouldn't be able to 123 00:08:16.569 --> 00:08:22.370 manage to inbok zero or and so that tells us that people aren't they just 124 00:08:22.569 --> 00:08:28.040 want more simplicity in their life and they had they desire sort of that Marie 125 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:33.679 condo experience, right, something into that. Yeah, and they're just more 126 00:08:33.720 --> 00:08:35.960 impatient, right, like they don't want to go and take two clicks to 127 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:39.679 your website. They would if it's great content. I think people would rather. 128 00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:43.230 And again this is just my musings right now. I don't have tons 129 00:08:43.269 --> 00:08:46.350 of market research to back it up, but that if it's great content, 130 00:08:46.429 --> 00:08:50.110 tent right. Why not have a deliver Chari in box? And I'm starting 131 00:08:50.149 --> 00:08:54.549 to see that with, you know, Steff goed in and with and handling 132 00:08:54.750 --> 00:08:58.740 and other marketers and really interesting thought leaders in the space doing it. And 133 00:08:58.860 --> 00:09:01.659 I'm starting to be on more list serves that are doing it. And those 134 00:09:01.700 --> 00:09:05.940 are the emails that I'm not subscribed on subscribing to because their emails are infrequent 135 00:09:07.059 --> 00:09:09.730 enough that when they come I look forward to them. I want to read 136 00:09:09.769 --> 00:09:13.450 the whole thing. Then I delete it. I don't have to then go 137 00:09:13.570 --> 00:09:16.169 to their site and get a pop up and, you know, then get 138 00:09:16.210 --> 00:09:20.250 their marks whatever. The whole ecosystem like. Sick of the ecosystem, right. 139 00:09:20.289 --> 00:09:24.799 And so just thinking about how can you know you do that? And 140 00:09:24.840 --> 00:09:28.600 I think as marketers we often want to eliminate clix and it's important for us 141 00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:31.799 as a company, but we don't necessarily want to eliminate Clix when it's good 142 00:09:31.799 --> 00:09:35.919 for the buyer. So this is a great example of the ladder where I 143 00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:41.470 think it optimizes the user experience. It gets people to read your content more 144 00:09:41.070 --> 00:09:46.830 and probably will get you to achieve your goal. It's not as measurable, 145 00:09:46.269 --> 00:09:52.100 right, but my my thesis around this is that if someone is reading your 146 00:09:52.139 --> 00:09:54.899 continent it's really interested, then they're going to come to your site, right, 147 00:09:54.980 --> 00:09:58.700 and so if you force them into your site prematurely, they're probably going 148 00:09:58.700 --> 00:10:01.940 to bounce anyway. So why have the bounce? Why? I just go 149 00:10:03.059 --> 00:10:05.620 to their eating. And why? Why increase the UNSUBSCRIBE right, like, 150 00:10:05.740 --> 00:10:09.929 why do all of those things if you can just deliver content that they would 151 00:10:09.929 --> 00:10:13.929 like and sort of reown the inbox, because that probably is going to long 152 00:10:13.049 --> 00:10:18.850 term d decrease your unsubscribed where it's going to build a help your list, 153 00:10:18.169 --> 00:10:22.639 it's going to engage people. So those are the kinds of conversations I'm having 154 00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:26.759 with myself, of my clients, with other companies, I talked to in 155 00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:30.919 colleagues and I think that this is sort of like the way marketing is headed. 156 00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:33.519 But you have to be able to take your head and lift it up 157 00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:37.029 and sort of see see the forest for the trees in order to like really 158 00:10:37.070 --> 00:10:39.990 be able to seek advantage of it. Yeah, absolutely. It reminds me 159 00:10:39.029 --> 00:10:43.870 of a previous episode our CEO, James, did with Chris Walker over at 160 00:10:43.909 --> 00:10:48.389 refine lamps, talking about the difference between lead generation and demand generation, and 161 00:10:48.470 --> 00:10:52.820 a lot of marketers I talked to say Legion and demandain very interchangeably. But 162 00:10:52.179 --> 00:10:58.419 breaking it down between am I kind of going where? I think we've gone 163 00:10:58.460 --> 00:11:01.220 way too far with inbound marketing, which it's you know, the thesis originally 164 00:11:01.379 --> 00:11:05.809 with with content within bound marketing was deliver enough value to draw people in. 165 00:11:07.330 --> 00:11:09.370 We've now created that, you know, to go with the fishing analogy, 166 00:11:09.450 --> 00:11:11.450 we put the hook out there and it's like, oh, we got your 167 00:11:11.490 --> 00:11:15.289 email and you got a pulse, so that equals a lead. Now I'm 168 00:11:15.330 --> 00:11:16.769 just going to I'm going to really in, I'm going to jerk the Rod, 169 00:11:16.769 --> 00:11:20.600 I'm going to I'm going to turn the real really, really, really 170 00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:24.559 hard and we've kind of given up on the idea that if we just deliver 171 00:11:24.600 --> 00:11:30.519 enough value then there will actually be demand rather than a lead. But we've 172 00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:35.909 gotten so caught up in quantifying and focused on that lead metric that it becomes 173 00:11:35.950 --> 00:11:39.750 very hard to kind of UN learn that behavior, but I think this is 174 00:11:39.830 --> 00:11:41.389 a good example of that. Yeah, but even in taking it like a 175 00:11:41.429 --> 00:11:45.389 step back, great like. So let's just play out the scenario. So 176 00:11:45.470 --> 00:11:48.340 let's just say you did the email of the blogs the old way, but 177 00:11:48.419 --> 00:11:52.659 by the time they get to that form they weren't really the right person to 178 00:11:52.740 --> 00:11:54.860 be a lead anyway, right. They would they wanted content they were in 179 00:11:54.980 --> 00:11:58.820 to read like a blog article. So getting them back to your site, 180 00:12:00.740 --> 00:12:01.889 they're not going to convert, or if they do, they're not going to 181 00:12:01.970 --> 00:12:05.809 be the potentially they're not going to be very buying intent. Now, if 182 00:12:05.809 --> 00:12:09.610 you had a soft CTA within your blog and they follow that link right then 183 00:12:09.690 --> 00:12:13.409 maybe they would be. And you can still have that within your email, 184 00:12:13.409 --> 00:12:16.240 which is cool. So to think about is sort of like what is the 185 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:18.919 right time to funnel someone to the site and to ask them to fill out 186 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:22.879 that form. I think is important because if you also think about it right, 187 00:12:24.279 --> 00:12:26.879 there's so many different ways that you can then use that same email address. 188 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:30.990 Google has, you know, Google customer match, so you can take 189 00:12:31.110 --> 00:12:35.710 your Customer List and you can upload into Google and they can you can target 190 00:12:35.750 --> 00:12:37.909 your display out or so you don't need someone funneling back there for remarketing. 191 00:12:37.950 --> 00:12:43.070 You don't need them funneling that back there for other reasons, because technology sort 192 00:12:43.110 --> 00:12:45.740 of takes care of that for you. So it's just a matter of really 193 00:12:45.779 --> 00:12:48.419 aligning with what the buyer is looking for at that period of time, making 194 00:12:48.460 --> 00:12:52.220 it as easy it as possible for them to consume the information and then putting 195 00:12:52.220 --> 00:12:56.740 the right CTA or the right follow on CTA to get them back if they're 196 00:12:56.779 --> 00:12:58.370 ready. And so that's sort of how I think about it. That's really 197 00:12:58.409 --> 00:13:03.009 good, Kittie, because I think that that speaks to kind of the altruistic 198 00:13:03.450 --> 00:13:05.330 motive that I was talking about, that if you believe in your content and 199 00:13:05.409 --> 00:13:09.330 you believe in delivering value, then you are going to create demand, even 200 00:13:09.330 --> 00:13:13.720 if that doesn't turn into a lead right away. But also just tactically, 201 00:13:13.960 --> 00:13:18.440 it makes sense right to not try and force people too far down the funnel 202 00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:20.279 when they're not ready. We we think, you know, I heard Guy 203 00:13:20.360 --> 00:13:24.240 Tona say this the other day about a past experience where his CEO was saying 204 00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:28.230 how come the blogs not converting enough leads, and he was like, when 205 00:13:28.350 --> 00:13:31.309 was the last time you read a blog article and then bought something and he 206 00:13:31.429 --> 00:13:33.309 was like well, I can't remember a time right. And so it goes 207 00:13:33.350 --> 00:13:37.350 back to what you were talking about at the beginning, understanding the user experience 208 00:13:37.470 --> 00:13:41.350 in the user behavior. But then, I like what you said, they're 209 00:13:41.539 --> 00:13:45.620 of coupling it with just the text act and the reality that you don't necessarily 210 00:13:45.740 --> 00:13:50.379 now need to send someone to your blog in order to retarget them with the 211 00:13:50.500 --> 00:13:54.139 Google Audience Building that you were talking about, because I imagine then, let's 212 00:13:54.179 --> 00:13:56.850 play out this scenario, if you go from sending your newsletter or whatever you 213 00:13:56.929 --> 00:14:01.370 call it, because I think newsletter is also an outdated term that you know, 214 00:14:01.490 --> 00:14:03.690 we just started doing it, because we've been doing it, and you're 215 00:14:03.730 --> 00:14:07.490 sending people to links to articles to get them back, but you go now 216 00:14:07.730 --> 00:14:13.279 to sending them the longer form content just natively in the email and then using 217 00:14:13.559 --> 00:14:20.159 those email addresses of your highest engaged folks to then to then retarget them or 218 00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:22.279 things like that. What other things? If people are pivoting this way, 219 00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:26.470 what do you think are some ways that they could do this effectively? Because 220 00:14:26.470 --> 00:14:30.149 I imagine some people maybe ask some questions on your post like well, I 221 00:14:30.230 --> 00:14:33.470 can't use kind of rich media. I can't see, you know, their 222 00:14:33.629 --> 00:14:35.870 time on page. What are your some of your thoughts on the tactics of 223 00:14:35.950 --> 00:14:39.980 this? To take a little further, the most were in tactics. You 224 00:14:39.100 --> 00:14:43.340 just really need great content, and that's what most people don't have, right, 225 00:14:43.419 --> 00:14:46.899 and so I think that's why you feel like you can't send it to 226 00:14:46.980 --> 00:14:52.379 someone's inbox or like you know what is really if you if you send something 227 00:14:52.539 --> 00:14:56.169 to someone's Inbox and they opened it, what's going to make them read that? 228 00:14:56.370 --> 00:15:01.210 And so if you start asking yourself those questions and you start putting yourself 229 00:15:01.289 --> 00:15:05.610 I like to call like putting your customer glasses on. I even like have 230 00:15:05.769 --> 00:15:07.559 those glasses. Susan come a custom lass. If that was a customer, 231 00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:13.000 I fout a customer what I'm right. And so I think you know, 232 00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:18.200 especially now when I'm, you know, consulting and I'm not sort of in 233 00:15:18.279 --> 00:15:22.590 a specific company, right, it's easier to do. It's really hard to 234 00:15:22.629 --> 00:15:26.669 do when you're like in the trenches of a company every day. But most 235 00:15:26.750 --> 00:15:30.269 people, they looked at the emails that they were sending, would not respond 236 00:15:30.269 --> 00:15:35.669 to those emails, right. And so ask yourself honestly, honestly, would 237 00:15:35.100 --> 00:15:41.379 you respond? Would you read what would make you click right. And so 238 00:15:41.700 --> 00:15:43.899 I think if you start having those really hard conversations, and like, this 239 00:15:45.019 --> 00:15:48.500 is also something I come back to, just like hard conversations. You have 240 00:15:48.620 --> 00:15:54.610 to have really hard conversations because sometimes it will expose issues that then you know, 241 00:15:54.730 --> 00:16:00.049 you actually solve and you can make headway with versus just doing the same 242 00:16:00.090 --> 00:16:03.450 thing day to day. And so just sit down with your team, like 243 00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:06.399 you know, ask, you know, sit down in a meeting with ten 244 00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:08.879 people. Would you reply that? Would you reply email right, like, 245 00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:14.080 and I think it's heart email right now is really hard from a technical perspective 246 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:18.029 because there's so much the data that you get back in like a Marquetto or 247 00:16:18.070 --> 00:16:22.389 something. There's a lot of fake clicks right. So it's very difficult to 248 00:16:22.509 --> 00:16:26.350 tell sometimes what's performing and what's not, because bots. I mean, I've 249 00:16:26.389 --> 00:16:30.870 talked to hundreds, like fifty marketers, and like everyone's experiencing the same thing. 250 00:16:30.110 --> 00:16:33.059 So and then we just really sometimes you just like give up because you're 251 00:16:33.059 --> 00:16:36.820 like, I don't even know what's real anymore. But you don't need that 252 00:16:37.139 --> 00:16:40.580 necessarily. Everyone's human. You just need to sit down and you to talk 253 00:16:40.620 --> 00:16:42.779 to your colleagues and you need to talk to your customers and, you know, 254 00:16:44.139 --> 00:16:48.289 ask them, and so I think the key is just what is the 255 00:16:48.370 --> 00:16:52.409 good enough content and then you know, subscribe and like look and see what's 256 00:16:52.409 --> 00:16:53.929 going on, what companies are doing at well, what makes you pay attention, 257 00:16:55.049 --> 00:16:57.009 what doesn't make you pay attention, and and you can start to get 258 00:16:57.210 --> 00:17:00.840 at that pretty quickly. Yeah, what do you think about these ideas, 259 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:03.960 Katie? If you were, you know, taking the blog content and instead 260 00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:07.359 of sending the newsletter and you've got three links to, you know, potentially 261 00:17:07.400 --> 00:17:11.599 good articles that you want to redirect people to, you take one blog article 262 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:15.789 and you expand that so people just scroll through the inbox and read it. 263 00:17:15.230 --> 00:17:21.269 Do you think that there's maybe a case for asking them to reply if they 264 00:17:21.309 --> 00:17:25.789 have a question, or putting some soft CTA's into just like you would in 265 00:17:25.869 --> 00:17:29.789 the blog content, to you know, find a resource on on something else? 266 00:17:30.339 --> 00:17:32.700 Do you think some of those things, if you go down this road, 267 00:17:32.700 --> 00:17:34.259 do you think some of those things could be could be effective? And 268 00:17:34.299 --> 00:17:37.180 have you tested anything along those lines? Yeah, no, I mean I'm 269 00:17:37.220 --> 00:17:41.539 just starting to, but I think, yes, I think that they're all 270 00:17:41.180 --> 00:17:45.049 both those things that you said. One like asking for apply I've seen that 271 00:17:45.089 --> 00:17:49.490 done really effectively and I also I'm not using that as much email right now, 272 00:17:49.609 --> 00:17:52.529 which is the only reason I can't. I can't say that, but 273 00:17:52.690 --> 00:17:56.049 these are things I'm thinking about. But the other thing is, yeah, 274 00:17:56.089 --> 00:17:59.920 like the Sawcta, like I just heard an interview with Gom CD and he 275 00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:06.079 was talking about their strategy for layering content right and having that initial article being 276 00:18:06.119 --> 00:18:07.799 very valuable. And then, I mean this is just sort of like marketing 277 00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:11.759 one on right. Then once if you get someone in that like, what's 278 00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:14.789 that's why I mean the beginning of our conversation around like the CTA. Right, 279 00:18:15.230 --> 00:18:17.349 it might not be a Ceta to go to your site and to buy, 280 00:18:17.430 --> 00:18:18.670 but it might be a Ceta to the next step or to read it 281 00:18:18.750 --> 00:18:22.750 go deeper into a content, a longer form pomp content piece or to share 282 00:18:22.829 --> 00:18:26.619 with a friend, right. And so how do you even bed those consistently 283 00:18:26.940 --> 00:18:30.740 so they're always there and they always provide a next step, because you shouldn't 284 00:18:30.740 --> 00:18:34.259 have someone read and then just go right. There should be something else from 285 00:18:34.380 --> 00:18:37.299 to do when they get to the end. So, whether or not that's 286 00:18:37.299 --> 00:18:41.809 through apply or to go deepers is definitely the way to go. Absolutely I 287 00:18:41.970 --> 00:18:45.410 love. I had Matt Hines from Hinds Marketing on the show a while back 288 00:18:45.490 --> 00:18:48.049 and we were talking about a follow up sequence that he does with folks who 289 00:18:48.089 --> 00:18:52.849 engage with his content on Linkedin and and the thing that I took from that 290 00:18:52.930 --> 00:18:56.519 conversation that has just been in my head for months now is that someone should 291 00:18:56.519 --> 00:19:00.039 never hit a dead end with your content. If they want to go deeper, 292 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:03.240 you should always be providing them and a new and it shouldn't always be 293 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:07.640 you know, it's why Gary V's Book Was Jab Jab, Jab Right Hook, 294 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:10.670 not jab right hook. I think we kind of take that and we're 295 00:19:10.710 --> 00:19:11.910 like, Oh, I threw a jab, I delivered a little value. 296 00:19:11.910 --> 00:19:15.910 It's time for that right hook. We need to slow play it just a 297 00:19:15.029 --> 00:19:18.150 little bit. You know. I think another thing that you could do, 298 00:19:18.150 --> 00:19:22.750 if you decide on this strategy, to send longer form text via email and 299 00:19:22.950 --> 00:19:26.420 send them that blog content, like, let's say that they do want to 300 00:19:26.660 --> 00:19:30.220 switch over to a browser for whatever reason, just giving them like hey, 301 00:19:30.339 --> 00:19:33.180 want to want to read this in a browser. That could be, you 302 00:19:33.259 --> 00:19:37.180 know, the SAFTCTA, one third and two thirds through the blog post that's 303 00:19:37.539 --> 00:19:40.410 in your inbox. I mean, like you said, just because we've done 304 00:19:40.410 --> 00:19:42.769 it one way doesn't mean we need to keep doing it that way. Yeah, 305 00:19:44.009 --> 00:19:47.690 there's nothing else in a video on the site that you want to show 306 00:19:47.730 --> 00:19:49.250 them. Go to the bit go to the website and watch the full video, 307 00:19:49.369 --> 00:19:52.279 right, because you can't necessarily easily. That's a really good point. 308 00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:56.200 So I saw someone brought that up and your linkedin post and they were like 309 00:19:56.279 --> 00:19:57.400 what about, you know, rich media, that sort of stuff. I 310 00:19:57.519 --> 00:20:00.759 mean, you could even have some fun with that, right, like, 311 00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:03.079 Hey, we wanted to deliver as much value in the inbox. I can't 312 00:20:03.079 --> 00:20:06.480 put a video in here. It would have been too hard. Click here 313 00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:07.990 and you can actually see the video. Sorry about that, right, like, 314 00:20:08.430 --> 00:20:11.910 have some fun with it. Think about, as you said, what 315 00:20:11.069 --> 00:20:15.109 is the user experience? What are they going through? What are they thinking? 316 00:20:15.150 --> 00:20:18.349 As opposed to this is what we do. We send emails, we'd 317 00:20:18.390 --> 00:20:21.460 send them here, we retarget them, we try to lead capture. Then 318 00:20:21.460 --> 00:20:23.980 they go to an str right and let's let's slow down and think about it. 319 00:20:25.019 --> 00:20:27.579 Are there's some other areas, Katie, that you have had in your 320 00:20:27.660 --> 00:20:32.220 mind where the same sort of thing being applies that you've kind of got your 321 00:20:32.259 --> 00:20:34.220 eyes on, where, Hey, there's a trend, someone's kind of taking 322 00:20:34.259 --> 00:20:37.650 the old way of doing it and shifting a little bit that you think other 323 00:20:37.769 --> 00:20:41.529 marketers should be thinking about? Yeah, so's the one area that I'm obsessing 324 00:20:41.569 --> 00:20:45.730 about right now to an unhealthy degree is community marketing. I think that, 325 00:20:47.569 --> 00:20:52.079 especially facebook groups are, I described it, one of my post ones is 326 00:20:52.119 --> 00:20:56.960 saying they combined the power of search and the power of word of mouths together, 327 00:20:56.279 --> 00:21:02.759 and so historically you haven't been able to if you have a question or 328 00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:04.829 you want to ask you know, you Wush your very you know Amazon reviews, 329 00:21:04.869 --> 00:21:08.150 right, like you want to know something about something, either related to 330 00:21:08.269 --> 00:21:11.630 work or buying something or vendor or anything, and you haven't really been able 331 00:21:11.670 --> 00:21:15.190 to just quickly, be able to go to hundreds or thousand people and just 332 00:21:15.230 --> 00:21:18.180 quickly ask a question or like crowds, crowd source, right. And so 333 00:21:18.299 --> 00:21:22.660 that's what facebook groups do and right first experience the value of them, I 334 00:21:22.859 --> 00:21:27.059 really highly recommend joining a few, either related to some personal interests or some 335 00:21:27.180 --> 00:21:32.619 professional interests. I got started on facebook groups about two thousand and seventeen because 336 00:21:32.740 --> 00:21:36.809 the mom ecosystem of MOM's talking about their kids is actually very alive and well 337 00:21:37.210 --> 00:21:40.569 on facebook. Groups. And so there's hundreds and hundred watts to facebook groups. 338 00:21:40.890 --> 00:21:45.130 And so you know Dave Gearhard just started his relate to marketing, and 339 00:21:45.329 --> 00:21:49.240 so I think, whether or not you know, having a group potentially, 340 00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:52.759 as you can eat, they can do in a few different ways where you 341 00:21:52.759 --> 00:21:55.599 can have your own group as a company, and that can do a lot 342 00:21:55.640 --> 00:22:00.680 of interesting things. Right, you can facilitate cross sort of pollination between your 343 00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:03.829 own customers and prospects. So they're not just learning from you, they're learning 344 00:22:03.869 --> 00:22:08.950 from each other, and so there's huge value and bringing people together and giving 345 00:22:08.950 --> 00:22:12.230 them a form to learn from each other. And actually I think that the 346 00:22:12.309 --> 00:22:15.500 value of that is even greater than some of the content that you can provide 347 00:22:15.539 --> 00:22:18.339 on your own. And that value comes back to you as the brand, 348 00:22:18.420 --> 00:22:22.740 because you are the connector. Right, you have facilitated those connections, and 349 00:22:22.859 --> 00:22:26.619 so just by by being the connector, yes, and so if you can 350 00:22:26.660 --> 00:22:30.329 do that, it's completely free to set up a facebook group. Right, 351 00:22:30.650 --> 00:22:33.410 you need to moderate it, you need to make sure that no one's taking 352 00:22:33.410 --> 00:22:37.369 advantage or selling or you're doing anything crazy in there. But assuming you can 353 00:22:37.410 --> 00:22:41.369 do all those things and you can also feed some relevant content to that, 354 00:22:41.529 --> 00:22:44.559 group. They're going to stay. Not For two reasons. Why they're going 355 00:22:44.599 --> 00:22:48.279 to stay because people in that group are providing the value and that people also 356 00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:51.279 help each other. I mean, I love someone posted one of my groups 357 00:22:51.319 --> 00:22:53.240 recently the question I wan't answer you because I like helping peop well, and 358 00:22:53.319 --> 00:22:57.160 so that's just sort of human nature. We'd like to help people and makes 359 00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:02.309 us feel good. So you know, you get that in a facebook group. 360 00:23:02.309 --> 00:23:04.390 And so they'll stay there because for three reasons, right. They like 361 00:23:04.549 --> 00:23:08.390 getting help from others, they like giving help to others and they are getting 362 00:23:08.390 --> 00:23:12.579 information from you as a company that's helping them be successful. And so I 363 00:23:12.740 --> 00:23:18.099 just think that this is very, very undervalued by companies. And this is 364 00:23:18.099 --> 00:23:22.220 a good example. In my last company, if I wasn't so like deeply, 365 00:23:22.380 --> 00:23:25.700 deeply covered by all of the things that are pushed on me as a 366 00:23:25.740 --> 00:23:27.529 market everyday way of the sales team, from, you know, things that 367 00:23:27.650 --> 00:23:30.809 have worked in the past, from just the machine that's been running, I 368 00:23:30.890 --> 00:23:33.769 would have just like come up for air and been like we need to have 369 00:23:33.769 --> 00:23:37.730 a facebook group, because we have, you know, we work with sixteen 370 00:23:37.730 --> 00:23:41.519 hundred colleges and universities and getting all those people together in a group and what 371 00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:45.160 could we do? And I actually didn't even do it right, and it 372 00:23:45.319 --> 00:23:48.319 wasn't until I left and I could sort of and I've been experiencing value groups 373 00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:52.319 for a couple of years. Right. And so no, I cannot tell 374 00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:55.869 people on this podcast that it would have knocked it out of the Parker, 375 00:23:55.950 --> 00:24:00.670 I don't know, but I'm pretty confident that that strategy over time would have 376 00:24:00.869 --> 00:24:03.869 worked. And I know because I'm seeing it happen. Might be deep you're 377 00:24:03.869 --> 00:24:06.509 hurts group. All that's paid, which is enough coome or another conversation for 378 00:24:06.549 --> 00:24:11.019 another day. I'm seeing it happen. elementors like another web you know, 379 00:24:11.220 --> 00:24:14.940 company that helps you create websites for your word. Present, they have sixtyzero 380 00:24:15.140 --> 00:24:17.740 people in their community. Right. Think about what that does for like a 381 00:24:17.779 --> 00:24:21.700 cup of a customer success standpoint. People are getting help from other people there, 382 00:24:21.700 --> 00:24:26.289 maybe taking taking some stress off of their customers success to their support teams. 383 00:24:26.730 --> 00:24:29.730 So it's not just again, it's also comes down to like brands being 384 00:24:29.809 --> 00:24:33.450 a key component into each part of the company. Right. It's like there's 385 00:24:33.450 --> 00:24:36.809 so much overlaps. You also have to break down some of the barriers to 386 00:24:36.930 --> 00:24:41.799 help show that. Yeah, absolutely I mean I can't hop on linkedin these 387 00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:47.839 days without seeing someone else talking about revenue collective and that that Organization for sales 388 00:24:47.880 --> 00:24:51.319 and marketing leaders has just exploded over the last year. And one of the 389 00:24:51.359 --> 00:24:53.309 things I keep hearing from people as like, yeah, the in person and 390 00:24:53.390 --> 00:24:56.829 events were good when when they were happening, but a lot of people are 391 00:24:56.829 --> 00:25:00.390 saying the private slack community that you are part of when you're a part of 392 00:25:00.430 --> 00:25:04.349 revenue collective is where a lot of the magic happens, where people are are 393 00:25:04.710 --> 00:25:08.180 sharing things, they're having conversations that they might not be having on Linkedin. 394 00:25:08.259 --> 00:25:11.619 There they're sharing what's working, what they're struggling with, all that sort of 395 00:25:11.660 --> 00:25:15.700 stuff and very similar. So, you know, maybe it's a private slack 396 00:25:15.740 --> 00:25:19.660 community or a facebook group, but I think this idea of of private communities 397 00:25:19.700 --> 00:25:26.369 where you bring employees, prospects, customers together and you're able to, like 398 00:25:26.529 --> 00:25:30.890 you said, you might decrease the load on your customer success or Customer Support 399 00:25:30.890 --> 00:25:34.049 Team because customers are answering each other's questions and all those sorts of things. 400 00:25:34.049 --> 00:25:38.440 So it doesn't just benefit marketing and I think especially right now in the time 401 00:25:38.519 --> 00:25:41.880 of social distancing and self isolation and quarantine and all those sorts of things. 402 00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:48.400 People are starved for community and so I think you're onto something there. It'll 403 00:25:48.440 --> 00:25:52.509 probably look different for every brand and and for the folks who are able to 404 00:25:52.589 --> 00:25:56.150 come up for air and and try that strategy of community marketing in some former 405 00:25:56.190 --> 00:26:00.470 fashion, but it's it's something we've thought about. We started a private slack 406 00:26:00.509 --> 00:26:04.460 channel for our cohosts here on BB growth and some of our past guests and 407 00:26:04.539 --> 00:26:07.779 some of our customers. It does take some work. It takes someone dedicated 408 00:26:07.859 --> 00:26:12.819 to facilitating that community to start in conversations and all that sort of stuff. 409 00:26:14.019 --> 00:26:17.579 But just like anything else, as I love what Chris Walker said the other 410 00:26:17.579 --> 00:26:21.089 day, it's just like you have to do the hard work, but you've 411 00:26:21.130 --> 00:26:23.769 got to decide where you're willing to put in that hard work and then and 412 00:26:23.930 --> 00:26:27.329 then do it right. So, Katy, this has been a great conversation. 413 00:26:27.730 --> 00:26:33.079 I really appreciate you breaking down this tactic we were talking about in sending 414 00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:37.039 your blog content straight to people's inbox. Excited to hear from folks if they 415 00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:40.319 try this out. Hit Katie your eye up on Linkedin. If this is 416 00:26:40.359 --> 00:26:42.640 something that you listening to this, if you experiment with or you have any 417 00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:45.680 thoughts on that, Kittie? On that note, what's the best way for 418 00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:49.630 people to stay connected with you if this is the first time you're coming across 419 00:26:49.630 --> 00:26:52.549 their path or they want to ask you some follow up questions or just stay 420 00:26:52.589 --> 00:26:57.549 plugged into some of your content? Just linkedin. That's it, easy enough, 421 00:26:57.710 --> 00:27:00.700 easy enough. Look her up, Katie Mitchell's her link to her linked 422 00:27:00.740 --> 00:27:03.579 in profile will be in the show notes as always. Everybody, Katie, 423 00:27:03.619 --> 00:27:07.579 thank you so much for making time for joining me on the show today. 424 00:27:07.579 --> 00:27:14.099 This has been a fantastic conversation. Thanks, it's awesome. Thanks it's sweetfish. 425 00:27:14.140 --> 00:27:18.130 We're on a mission to create the most helpful content on the Internet for 426 00:27:18.329 --> 00:27:22.009 every job, function and industry on the planet. For the BB marketing industry, 427 00:27:22.170 --> 00:27:26.410 this show is how we're executing on that mission. If you know a 428 00:27:26.490 --> 00:27:30.319 marketing leader that would be an awesome guest for this podcast. Shoot me a 429 00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:33.799 text message. Don't call me because I don't answer unknown numbers, but text 430 00:27:33.880 --> 00:27:37.640 me at four hundred seven for and I know three and threty two eight. 431 00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:40.759 Just shoot me their name, maybe a link to their linked in profile, 432 00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:42.920 and I'd love to check them out to see if we can get them on 433 00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:45.309 the show. Thanks a lot