Transcript
WEBVTT
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Welcome back to BEDB growth. I'm
looking lyles with sweet fish media. I'm
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joined today by Simon Leslie. He's
the founder and CEO over at ink.
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Simon, how are you doing today
besides, you know, enduring some swelteringly
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hot weather in the London area.
Right everybody thinks it just reigns a miserably
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in London, but today you've got
a hot, sweaty and frustrated Simon Leslie.
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All right, well, we're going
to be talking about something that frustrates
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you. I know it frustrates a
lot of the people that I talk to,
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a lot of my connections on Linkedin
and a lot of my friends.
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They get these linkedin messages and it's
just like what thought has has someone put
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into this? But we're not just
going to rant about the way things shouldn't
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be done, but point out some
things that bb sellers can actually do to
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improve their outreach. What was this
one? Give us a little bit of
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context to the one that recently got
you pretty fired up. We're not going
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to name any names today, but
let's call it like it is, and
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I thought your response that you shared
with me offline was just so telling.
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Let's let's kick off the conversation there, Simon. The thing that frustrates me
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is it's a process. So first
of all you get linked in and because
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I'm you know, we're in similar
businesses, or we you know we do
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this when we went to the same
school, or we you know, we
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like oranges. And then the next
thing is you get the you know,
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I was wondering email. That's what
I would call that. I was wondering
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you currently looking for help in motivating
your staff, in those that might be
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lacking drive or motivation? I want
to start wasting times on small problems and
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focus really drives growth. Whether it's
helping them not, true thriving culture,
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run organization, seemed as they will
become an amazing brand, glaud it.
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This goes on and on and I
just went no, I want to I
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want to warn my stuff, to
make miserable, entitled and depressed, and
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I I guess I'll get a response
at some point. Yes, maybe,
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maybe, maybe not, but I
think all of us, whether we've typed
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out that response or not, we've
had that same thought and for one,
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I think one thing leads to that. In this example that we're talking about,
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in linkedin or email, follow up
gone wrong on calld outreach, and
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that is there's a connection request and
then there's an immediate right hook the I
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was just wondering email. But then
that I was just wondering email in that
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I heard three very high level,
different value props that were kind of Duh
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like, which is what informed your
response right like. Of course I'm looking
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to have happier employees, of course
I want to have an amazing brand.
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They show no level of depth or
research or understanding of the person on the
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other line. And so why do
you think, Simon, that these templates
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keep getting written if we are kind
of feel the same way? Why is
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this still so common today, especially
on Linkedin? You see that connection request
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and then you get there. I
was just wondering message. Because people are
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lazy. That's the most think.
That's the simplest. You know when you
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when you're going to if I'm going
to reach out you, I want to
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know who you are on and know
what what challenges you might be facing.
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There's no problem with writing that email
off. There's context and there's concern.
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You know, I see that you're
in the travel industry. You must be
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absolutely under the crush right now.
What can I do to help you.
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Don't worry about paying me. Let
me come in and talk to you.
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What can I do that's going to
help you, know, eve some of
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the burdens? If you've got challenges
with your staff, maybe I can talk
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to some of them, maybe I
could help you. Know, just something.
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Right now it's about throwing hooks out
there and getting people excited and engaged,
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and I do the other around.
You know when I when I want
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someone to work for me, you
know I wanted to. My first foot
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is, how can I help you? What can I give you that you
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know? Hopefully you can. You
can give me something in return, so
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it doesn't always feel like, you
know, there's a there's a price tag
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coming at the end of it.
And right now that's how you differentiate.
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And I'll also say cold emailing,
cold linked in or any of the other
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cold methods need to be a place
with warm methods or decent cold calling.
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I they pick up the bloody phone. When that's been more response to so
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many of these people who know me, I say here's my cell phone number.
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If you genuinely want to sell me
something, here's my telephone phone me
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to know how. A few pick
up the phone and phone because they're scared
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of the telephone, the scart of
actually speaking to a customer. They spend
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most of their life typing to customers. That's not setting, that's typing.
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Selling is when you open your mouth
and you converse. I love it,
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Simon, so tell me a little
bit. I love what you talked about
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there in not just putting a hook
in the water with bait on it,
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but just giving something valuable with no
hook, no string attached, knowing that
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it's actually going to come back to
you. Don't have to Yank. You
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know, I can remember learning to
fish as a kid and you learn that
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when you get that little nibble right, you gotta set the Hook, you
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gotta you gotta pull so you you
get that that home set in the fish's
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mouths pull it really quickly as well. You got it, you got a
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of nurture. It's in, and
that's the thing I think there's to people
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are too quick to try and sell
or try and tell himself to too quick
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to try and type. Yeah,
that's a good point. Back to your
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differentiation on what is actually selling.
Tell us a little bit about in your
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own experience or your own team.
What are some tactical ways that you guys
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have found to add value, to
turn those cold outreach messages into warm outreach
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messages with a little bit of context
and some way it, you can offer
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value that is still somewhat repeatable,
somewhat scale. Boy, have some ideas
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in my mind, but I would
love to hear from your perspective what have
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been some of those tactics your team
has been able to act out on that
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advice that you were just giving there. I think it's empathy, compassion and
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and research. Don't spend all day
long researching somebody the pick up phone because
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they can very easily go not interested
or you're going to, you know,
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Sarkie response like I did. But
actually, when you stop and you look
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at their you know whatever it is, the latest release, the conversation,
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the podcast, the chief is acatives
been on, when you understand what the
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challenge is that company is facing and
what they what they're looking to achieve,
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and it's a head of a lot
easier to start that conversation. And you've
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got to create that intrigue and they
got to create that that interest, and
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right now it's even harder because people
have got lots of money. Actually but
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they're sitting on it like it's gold
and they're not going to release it unless,
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unless you really prize it open.
And it comes to to something which
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has been bothering me and and I've
been thinking about this a lot of the
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last year. I guess when I
when I was young, my dad's cart
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breakdown and he would take it to
the garage and go to the mechanic and
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need say something wrong with the car. Can you fix it and send me
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the bill? Today, you want
to go and get a second of opinion.
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You want to Google. You can't
walk into a store and buy address.
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You first take a picture of it. Then you go and compare it.
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Can I buy it somewhere else cheaper? You go to the doctor,
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the dentist and say he says you
need drew. Can I you go?
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Well, I want to get a
second opinion. So the whole trust and
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belief in in in the people that
you work with, all the people you
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buy from, is gone. So
every any time anyone wants to do business
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for this I feel like we have
to overcome that that you know we're going
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to rip you off, we're going
to take we're going to take money from
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you and we can not going to
give you value in return and I can
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buy cheaper across the road, and
I think that that's what I've been thinking
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about and that's what I think company
is going to think about todays. How
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can I how can I deliver my
product where people don't have to worry about
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what the bill is going to be
at the end of it? That makes
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sense? Yeah, absolutely, I
think you you unearth something there Simon in
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in a shift that has happened psychologically. That's a great example of where your
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dad just had had trust that this
money is going to be well spent,
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I'm going to get the right amount
of value back for what I spend and
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whether that's been kind of the proliferation
of it's easier to get into business and
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all sorts of sectors. So there
have been a lot of businesses without good
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delivery and good products and good service, or it's just been the fact that
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hey, I should look into other
options because they're available, you know,
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and that's probably a conversation for another
day on why we've gotten there. But
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as be toob sales and marketing professionals, we have to recognize that we are
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there. There is a lack of
trust and it's not just hey, here's
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value and here's what it costs,
and we have to communicate that. We
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have to overcome that big mountain of
the trust issue before we can really engage
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and have a selling conversation, at
that true selling conversation, as you put
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it earlier. What are some of
the ways? You know, here it's
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sweet fish. We've seen that.
You're exactly right. People. It's not
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like budgets have totally been eradicated,
but people are being much more careful this
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year as they think about, you
know, just the uncertain times. And
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one way we've been able to try
to establish some trust with a company that's
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never worked with us before is getting
creative around some sort of pilot program or
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something that we can do for them
without asking for anything in return to overcome
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that initial hill, that of trust, that we have to get over.
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So for some folks we've said,
hey, you're thinking about starting a podcast,
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but you're not sure if people in
your target market would say yes to
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being a guest on a podcast,
depending on whether you sell to hr or
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travel industry executives or marketing leaders at
Sass companies, whoever it is. So
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let us do a little bit of
test there and see what we get.
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No cost to that, no commitment, and then they can see not only
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the delivery of our service but also
they can get the question answer without having
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to put a bunch of money on
the table. Are there's some things like
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that that your team has found this
year have worked well for you guys in
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building that trust, in finding some
creative ways to offering something that might not
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have typically been, prior to two
thousand and twenty, part of your typical
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process and procedures. Let me tell
you a little bit about what we do
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so it gives a list of context. So up until February two thousand and
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twenty, we were on the crest
of wave and we've been. We've been
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growing aggressively for the last six years. We started twenty six years of twenty
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six years ago. Where twenty six
year old start up and everything we do.
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When Airlines need to make money,
airlines need to inspire their passages or
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they want to create some content,
they tend to come to us and taught
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to us. So when when the
pandemic hit in March, you know,
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all the sudden our lines are working
out where they're going to part their planes,
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not where. Not where they're going
to get something to inspire their customers.
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So it's been twenty five weeks of
sitting on our hands, waiting for,
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waiting for people to take off again, and over the last two weeks
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when they're in there, when we
are all gays, all got into a
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blur September, August, September and, you know, people started fly again.
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So I'm having to come back to
the set of look, you're got
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to trust us again. This was
a fantastic audience for you. This was
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a great market place where you reached
fast moving consumers, people who are tastemakers,
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people who were doing and moving and
shaking. Now people are scared of
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flying, people are scared of,
you know, catching covid so we've got
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to overcome so many more objections that
didn't even exist six months ago. And
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I think that's what it's going to
be like now, over the next twenty
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four months, is, as a
business, the objections that you used to
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get and not we're going to be
the objections going forward and you're going to
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have to deal with customers who want
to feel like I've got so much choice,
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I've got so many places I can
do it. Where am I going
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to get the best value for money? And I think that's that's what I've
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got to think up and come up
with and in the spy my team because,
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you know, rather than having a
conversation about our media, they want
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to have a conversation about our people
flying, our people. You know,
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what's it like at the airport?
So you know, has it like?
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What's it like to fly with a
face mask? And and we know we
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have an airline in in Europe where
people are say, you know, your
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airline has been too aggressive, it's
letting to be people in the plate,
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you're bringing covid into our country.
And it's like then, okay, that's
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that's not that's all our Angu for. But you know. So. So
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these are whole new challenges that we
didn't even experience before. Yeah, so
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would you say there? It's fair
to say, Simon, that with your
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own sales team, you're have going
to encourage them and get them more educated
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on the day to day of the
buyers that they're selling to, even more
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so now because they're so far removed
from being ready to have that sales conversation.
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There's so many things that they've got
to get through psychologically and tactically.
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It's not just the CFO breathing down
their neck of we don't we can't spend
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this money or don't sign a long
term commitment. It's all these other things.
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And so the sales teams that are
going to be successful are the ones
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that go deeper into the day to
day lives of their customers. Would would
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you say that that's true for your
team and in other BB sales teams out
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there? A hundred seven travers?
I'll tell you some of the interesting things
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that I'm seeing that are happening.
People don't want to come into work,
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you know, and that work might
be from bedroom to living room. But
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well, they will actually they don't
want to commute on the don't want to
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commute on public transport. So getting
there as a fair is that first challenge.
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Then they don't want to pick up
the phone or do stuff because they're
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worried they're going to get rejected.
But what I am saying the ones who
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are really aggressive already and determine who
want to get back to being successful again.
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They're reaching out much harder up the
food chap and not messing around with
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marketing teams or VPS. It can
strike to see you, because the CEO's
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of the ones right now who are
making decisions very quickly because they are looking
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at that business and thing, how
can I get back in how can I
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get back in business as quickly as
I possibly can? So we're having conversations,
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and I'm not talking about small organizations
and talking about a publicly listed companies
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where the CEO is now much more
engaged than he's ever been because he's having
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to make challenging decisions right now.
And you know, when people are at
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home getting decisions, is happy,
because it's you know once, once I
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we walk across the office and say
you want to do this and someone say
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yeah, we'll get to cap.
Now it's you know, I'm going to
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set of a zoom call with him, him in here and it's taking so
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long to get a decision, whereas
if you go right to the top and
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he says yeah, quite likely,
let's just bring in. And also when
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the CEEO rings you and says come
on this zoom call, it's like,
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okay, I'll be there in a
minute, boss. And we're getting we're
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getting a lot of bigger deals done, quicker deals done now. We always
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did try that, but in the
in the old days, you're the CEO,
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were just pass it down. Now
we're finding that they're taking control of
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things themselves as well. They really
are getting in gold. So, as
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you've pushed your team to go higher
up the food chain and call on the
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CEO more directly and more often,
you're seeing higher response rates there than previously
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when they had tried to go that
route. Yeah, what are some of
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the things? So you mentioned?
We started the episode here, Simon,
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with a very bad called email or
called linkedin message to you. A CEO
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offer brings some very vague value props
and very kind of yeah, of course,
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sort of things. What are the
common themes in the messaging for you
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as a CEO that resonates and prompts
you to respond? Is it more looking
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at specific industry insides? Is it
looking at opportunities? Is it looking at
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ways to avoid some of the biggest
risks in in your space right now?
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What are some of those common things? For those out there that say,
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okay, I want to take what
Simon saying, I want to reach out
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to more CEOS, but I want
to do it in the right way that's
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going to be effective. What advice
would you give them? Right now,
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Simon, let's say look at what's
been written, look at what the messaging
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is, look where the frustration is
or the enthusiasm and address those points,
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help those points. The Best Pitch
I had during this period was I found
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me up and he said look,
I've seen you linkedin post, linked it.
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He said, I can you just
give me five minutes and I promise
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you won't be a waste of five. And you get a lot of these,
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but he was. I said,
okay, here's my number. Phon
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me and he actually found me and
he said, look, I'm sensing some
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real frustration in some of your posting
and some of your things. I've got
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a solution. I want to send
it to you. It was it was
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about somebody asking for a pay rise. I think that was the issue.
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They said, I've got a document
that I wrote about pay rises and how
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you address this as a situation.
Can I send it to you? I
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said Shure. He's look, there's
no cost us, it's fine. Send
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it to me and it's just brilliant. From that and a halfway through this
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conversation is talking to me about other
things and marketing and you know, he's
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selling himself and so I don't care
what you cost, I'd like to work
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with you because I actually find your
whole style and the whole way you've got
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about this really, really helpful.
And he came in and did some work
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with our team and but it was
just that where where he was coming in
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with with a gift to help and
not coming in to try and sell me
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something, to the point where you
where. I said that to him.
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He said, I don't want it, I don't want to sell to you,
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I just just generally want to help
you, and I su course she
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wants some money for me, but
it wasn't really was. It was,
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you know, and every now and
again elseend me another message or record.
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So for me, here's an idea
I've got for you, and I think
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that's where you get engagement, if
you just keep sending messages. I'm like
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it dozens of messages of day.
You okay, you you know what can
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I do and you know you need
anything. You need to spend some money
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here. Jo want some ideas on
the leadership, John, some ideas on
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this, that and the other,
and I'm like no, I just I
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just want I just want to be
left a load actually, because, you
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know, I'm I'm trying to work
out how we're going to get through this.
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And and the last point on that
is right now everybody is complaining about
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the job that they didn't even want, you know, the job they didn't
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even want to go to. But
now it's a whole different world and I
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think we've got to be really careful
as employees employers that, you know,
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the this is going to become a
weird market for our sales people, because
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if you're not really decimined to get
better, really trying to push yourself harder,
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you're going to you know, this
going to be another wave of coling
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and there's going to be much more
people looking for work. Then they're all
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going to be jokes, the sales
people, and I think in this industry
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you're gonna have to work a damn
sight harder than you did pretty covid.
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I think. Yeah, that's a
sobering thought, but I see the reality
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in that. Definitely Simon in bb
sales, as we see, you know,
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more people in the space and fewer
jobs to be had, as I'm
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teaching my eleven year old about supply
and demand right now, and and that's
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you know what's taking place in the
job market right now. Well, I'm
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in I love what you've said here
about taking a different route than those cold
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messages that we've seen that we just
know don't work, yet we still keep
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sending them, and a better way
to go about it. I love the
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story you talked about Your Dad.
That really uncovered the trust issue that's at
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the root of a lot of the
buyer seller interaction, especially in the early
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stages of any sales process. Whether
you're a fairly transactional sale or a long
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sales cycle of, you know,
multiple months or years in an enterprise type
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of selling environment, it doesn't really
matter. That trust factor is still there,
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so don't go in blindly not realizing
that that's there. And then what
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you're talking about here. I think
it's really interesting that your sales team is
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finding greater success reaching out to see
eos when they do it with a value
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first mindset, when they go to
their marketing team and say, Hey,
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what content can I offer to see
eos at this size of company or in
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this sector? What content can I
offer to this role, this persona and
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someone in this industry? And then
they genuinely go towards that person with the
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attitude of helpfulness I learned early on. I was trained by one of my
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first sales managers to go with that
line of I'm not trying to sell you
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something. I only did it two
or three times before I realize I don't
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ever want to utter that again because
I want to be helpful. But at
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the end of the day that is
my job to sell you something. So
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why be disingenuous and say that?
But the way to sell is to focus
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less on selling more on helping,
and it's just one of those great oxymorons
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of life that when we focus less
on selling, we actually end up selling
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more. So I mean this has
been a great conversation. If anybody listening
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to this would like to stay connected
with you or they'd like to reach out
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and get some ideas from you,
or they have a way that they genuinely
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think they could be helpful to you, what's the best way for them to
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go about doing that, in line
with the theme of today's episode? Well,
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abus say, you can use my
linkedin spend most of the time a
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00:21:08.509 --> 00:21:11.990
link to this. So less past
upon me. If you want to know
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00:21:11.150 --> 00:21:15.470
more about me, buy my book. Every every sense of profit will go
319
00:21:15.589 --> 00:21:19.299
to charity and I'm helping to lend
my own little way to help to read
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homelessness. The books called there's no
fin sales, which is a probably the
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00:21:25.220 --> 00:21:30.779
most appropriate title for right now,
and I'm I'm starting to pen the next
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00:21:30.819 --> 00:21:33.410
one, which is cooled. There
is an F and future. I love
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00:21:33.490 --> 00:21:36.490
it all right. Well, Simon, we will link to not only your
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linked in but your book there's no
fin sales in the show notes. Another
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episode we did somewhat related to this
topic, folks. I interviewed Matt hines
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about a very tactical way to add
value and to continue delivering helpful content to
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folks who do engage with your content
on Linkedin. Will Link to that in
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00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:56.519
the show notes as well. I
think if you like this conversation, you'll
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00:21:56.559 --> 00:22:00.359
like that one as well. Simon, thank you so much for joining me
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on the show today. It's been
a real pleasure talking to you. Appreciate
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it and anything I can do to
help anyone, please just reach outs.
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00:22:06.950 --> 00:22:08.910
But anyone in sales. That's my
passion and I want to make sure that
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young salespeople, old salespeople, just
get better. Is Your buyer a betb
334
00:22:17.099 --> 00:22:21.220
marketer? If so, you should
think about sponsoring this podcast. BUB growth
335
00:22:21.259 --> 00:22:25.099
gets downloaded over a hundred and thirty
thousand times each month, and our listeners
336
00:22:25.140 --> 00:22:29.819
are marketing decisionmakers. If it sounds
interesting, Sin Logan and email Logan at
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00:22:29.859 --> 00:22:30.130
sweetish Mediacom