1325: Is Category Creation Right for Your Brand? w/ Kevin Alansky

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:08.470 Welcome back to be to be growth. I'm Logan lyles with sweet fish media. 2 00:00:08.669 --> 00:00:12.630 Today I'm joined by Kevin Olansky. He's the CMO over at higher logic. 3 00:00:12.750 --> 00:00:15.150 Kevin, welcome to the show. Thanks a going. It's great to 4 00:00:15.150 --> 00:00:17.949 be here. Awesome, man. Hey, Kevin, we love to get 5 00:00:17.989 --> 00:00:21.579 to know our guests a little bit, and one of the interesting things I'd 6 00:00:21.579 --> 00:00:26.500 love to hear from you have you picked up any new hobbies or habits during 7 00:00:26.699 --> 00:00:31.179 this time of quarantine, social distancing, self isolation? Yeah, I think 8 00:00:31.219 --> 00:00:36.969 what's is all this new again. So I actually got a bicycle which became 9 00:00:37.009 --> 00:00:41.130 I heard bikes now are the new new toilet paper. So a lot of 10 00:00:41.130 --> 00:00:46.170 run on bikes. I was fortunate to go to facebook marketplace and find a 11 00:00:46.250 --> 00:00:49.450 use bike online, so I'm getting back into bicycle. I love it, 12 00:00:49.530 --> 00:00:52.280 man. Yeah, it's funny. What has become, you know, in 13 00:00:52.479 --> 00:00:55.880 demand and in short supply. Well, beyond that, we're going to be 14 00:00:55.960 --> 00:01:00.479 talking about category creation. For regular listeners of the show, they know that 15 00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:06.030 we've had an ongoing series here on category creation. John Rougie has been the 16 00:01:06.069 --> 00:01:08.989 host of most of those episodes. We've been fortunate enough to talk to folks 17 00:01:10.030 --> 00:01:14.390 who are in the trenches of category creation and the Guy I would call they 18 00:01:14.469 --> 00:01:19.620 godfather of category creation, Christopher Lockheed, who talks about this stuff very regularly 19 00:01:19.739 --> 00:01:23.299 and has two books on the subject. Kevin, you have some experience, 20 00:01:23.420 --> 00:01:26.180 both kind of in the early days of category creation that you're going through at 21 00:01:26.180 --> 00:01:32.500 high or logic and some previous experiences in going through this process. Before we 22 00:01:32.540 --> 00:01:34.969 kind of get into the thick of things in your mind, how do you 23 00:01:36.209 --> 00:01:41.450 define category creation just as a term in general? Yeah, I mean it's 24 00:01:41.450 --> 00:01:46.209 interesting. I think the category creation as a term is really obviously with the 25 00:01:46.329 --> 00:01:51.920 market perceds. You and your competitors as an application kind of cohorts, right. 26 00:01:52.480 --> 00:01:57.519 So ultimately the cohort is really defined to help solve the personas in this 27 00:01:57.599 --> 00:02:04.750 particular cases, problems. But really the category is often define by many different 28 00:02:04.750 --> 00:02:07.750 competitors that are kind of coming together solve the same different thing. So you 29 00:02:07.789 --> 00:02:12.349 know, for me personally, I got a chance to see that when I 30 00:02:12.469 --> 00:02:15.419 was at blackboard, which is an online education provider. I was there in 31 00:02:15.460 --> 00:02:21.219 one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine and the category itself really wasn't defined. 32 00:02:21.419 --> 00:02:23.699 Now today a lot of folks know it as an lmss, but back in 33 00:02:23.740 --> 00:02:29.259 the day we called it a course management system and it was interesting to see 34 00:02:29.300 --> 00:02:31.889 that category grow over the last two and twenty five years. Yes, something 35 00:02:32.050 --> 00:02:37.330 interesting you said there that I've heard from others. You know Max Alchilar at 36 00:02:37.370 --> 00:02:40.610 outreach. She's said it's not really a category unless there are competitors. Yes, 37 00:02:40.689 --> 00:02:44.050 you can't be the only one and just say hey, we've got a 38 00:02:44.169 --> 00:02:46.879 category. Then then you just have a definition of your product. Right, 39 00:02:47.199 --> 00:02:52.599 it's not really a category. So I think that is a defining characteristic of 40 00:02:53.120 --> 00:02:57.800 a category. As we talked about category creation, why was that something that 41 00:02:58.080 --> 00:03:02.909 was so important in the journey at blackboard and was it intentional to go on 42 00:03:04.030 --> 00:03:07.229 that journey of category creation when you were there? Yeah, absolutely. It 43 00:03:07.349 --> 00:03:10.150 was so important for several different reasons. One, it give a lot of 44 00:03:10.189 --> 00:03:15.659 validity to what we were doing. There was a lot of, believe it 45 00:03:15.659 --> 00:03:19.219 or not, there was a lot of misunderstandings in those early days in the 46 00:03:19.259 --> 00:03:23.900 late s. Many teachers, professors of what we were doing in education thought 47 00:03:23.460 --> 00:03:29.969 we were replacing the teacher in the classroom and a lot of the misperception was 48 00:03:30.729 --> 00:03:35.449 really what we were trying to do is supplement the classroom and irony is with 49 00:03:35.729 --> 00:03:38.289 covid a lot of the challenge that we're facing today. Our teachers and professors 50 00:03:38.330 --> 00:03:43.199 are in the same almost in the same but yet different challenge, which is 51 00:03:43.319 --> 00:03:46.680 they have to teach almost fully remotely in many different states. Is certainly what 52 00:03:46.759 --> 00:03:51.919 we're hearing about the upcoming school year. But back then it was more about 53 00:03:51.919 --> 00:03:57.349 supplementing the education to being able to get your course information online, your Sollabus, 54 00:03:57.469 --> 00:04:00.509 your content, getting your quizzes, and that was a lot easier than 55 00:04:00.669 --> 00:04:05.830 using things by paper. So for us it was so deliberate to be able 56 00:04:05.870 --> 00:04:10.620 to help define it. So it was more about supplementing education and doing things 57 00:04:10.659 --> 00:04:15.979 the more in hybrid and by having third parties and other people validating the market 58 00:04:15.139 --> 00:04:19.779 essentially helping US build the category. It helped better explain who we are and 59 00:04:19.899 --> 00:04:24.649 what we do. Yeah, so that clearer definition of what we are, 60 00:04:24.810 --> 00:04:29.610 what we do and what we're not is part of that. was that intentional 61 00:04:29.850 --> 00:04:32.170 in getting those other folks to help you build the category? You know, 62 00:04:32.689 --> 00:04:38.370 I think a recent example gain site, you know, very intentionally put a 63 00:04:38.490 --> 00:04:42.040 flag in the ground and said customer success. This this is the term we're 64 00:04:42.120 --> 00:04:46.079 starting to hear it, but we are going all in on on this term 65 00:04:46.319 --> 00:04:50.040 and creating this category of customer success. Was it similar for you guys when 66 00:04:50.079 --> 00:04:53.870 you're at blackboard? Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, you know, 67 00:04:54.389 --> 00:04:57.829 when we started to talk to analysts and a lot of other firms, 68 00:04:57.870 --> 00:05:01.910 we were so early in an emphathy that they didn't, quite frankly, give 69 00:05:01.910 --> 00:05:06.420 us the time of day. So for us it was about being able to 70 00:05:06.540 --> 00:05:12.579 eventually get that coverage from those third party analysts helped to find again what you 71 00:05:12.699 --> 00:05:15.100 were saying, the flag in the sand. At a time, we picked 72 00:05:15.660 --> 00:05:18.259 learning management systems, otherwise known as lamass is. That was a little bit 73 00:05:18.259 --> 00:05:23.089 different than course management systems. I was a little bit broader in terms of 74 00:05:23.170 --> 00:05:27.290 being able to say that we were more of an enterprise platform and because we 75 00:05:27.370 --> 00:05:30.930 had that third party research and a lot of other things that help build the 76 00:05:30.009 --> 00:05:34.879 category we in turn, we're able to charge more for our platform. Right. 77 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:40.240 So we had originally had a set similar was it called Sass at the 78 00:05:40.360 --> 00:05:44.240 time, but we had a Sass like model and we were charging our first 79 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:47.600 product was only five thousand dollars a year from major universities and then those same 80 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:54.310 platform which we rough and you expanded and had many acquisitions that bolted onto the 81 00:05:54.350 --> 00:05:57.750 platform. But ultimately, at the end of the day, we wanted to, 82 00:05:58.069 --> 00:06:00.189 you know, be able to create more value for our customers. That's 83 00:06:00.269 --> 00:06:03.459 in turn they would pay more. That's, you know, taking us at 84 00:06:03.620 --> 00:06:08.699 you know, from a private company privately back to a public company. So 85 00:06:08.819 --> 00:06:12.660 all of that journey, the category creation was so critical because it gave a 86 00:06:12.699 --> 00:06:16.620 lot of alidity both for investors boards, you know, our customers, for 87 00:06:16.740 --> 00:06:20.089 them to sell into their organizations and say, yes, we need to pay, 88 00:06:20.769 --> 00:06:24.649 you know, tens of thousands of dollars a year for this application, 89 00:06:24.889 --> 00:06:28.889 because you know, and all of that helped. Yeah, so, Kevin, 90 00:06:28.930 --> 00:06:33.240 we've talked about how going on the journey of category creation helped define who 91 00:06:33.319 --> 00:06:36.800 you are, what you do, who your serve and also what you're not, 92 00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:41.959 and it helped gain momentum as well. One of the questions I've heard 93 00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:46.759 from from marketers and leaders in the BB spaces that, you know, category 94 00:06:46.759 --> 00:06:50.910 creation seems like maybe just a little bit different spin on on good positioning. 95 00:06:51.470 --> 00:06:57.990 What would you say to that? What were the differences in how you executed 96 00:06:58.509 --> 00:07:02.620 category creation, or category design, as Christopher lockhead says, often times from 97 00:07:03.220 --> 00:07:08.379 just good messaging and positioning in the market place. Well, I mean it's 98 00:07:08.420 --> 00:07:12.100 hard to argue that. Of course, good messaging and positioning is, you 99 00:07:12.180 --> 00:07:15.459 know, pretty critical. In fact, one of the exercises we did about 100 00:07:15.170 --> 00:07:18.889 seven, eight weeks ago, at at our logic as we are rolling out 101 00:07:19.209 --> 00:07:24.769 a new brand and a new position for us, was going back to the 102 00:07:24.850 --> 00:07:29.410 Jeffrey Moore Framework, which is, you know, one of the classic exercises 103 00:07:29.490 --> 00:07:31.639 that folks do to understand the WHO, the what, and we did that 104 00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:35.759 and we in it, believed or not. That's exercise, which was just 105 00:07:35.959 --> 00:07:40.920 classic positioning and messaging, took us a long time. We had several of 106 00:07:41.079 --> 00:07:46.069 executives with different market inside hearing from our customers, but to get all those 107 00:07:46.110 --> 00:07:50.670 heads in a room and agree took several weeks and it wasn't an easy task. 108 00:07:50.829 --> 00:07:55.269 So I might, you know, be the counterpoint here saying it is 109 00:07:55.470 --> 00:07:58.899 about good old fashioned messaging, at least the start, at least what you 110 00:07:58.939 --> 00:08:01.100 need to do internally. And then, I think, externally it's how do 111 00:08:01.139 --> 00:08:05.220 you take that message to market? How do you convince others, whether the 112 00:08:05.379 --> 00:08:09.540 third parties, analysts? These days it might be GTWO crowd to be able 113 00:08:09.579 --> 00:08:13.610 to create those sections on the website that they have to be able to get 114 00:08:13.649 --> 00:08:16.649 more people in the quadrants here. But it's all about the validation. So 115 00:08:16.850 --> 00:08:20.889 I think it starts internally by doing that those you know, those those classic 116 00:08:22.009 --> 00:08:24.410 examples of positioning, and then, quite frankly, it's how aggressive are you 117 00:08:24.490 --> 00:08:30.240 on the messaging standpoint to have that consistency and then making sure that work gets 118 00:08:30.279 --> 00:08:33.240 out there. So hope that addresses why you're asking. Yeah, that makes 119 00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:37.759 sense and and it's really interesting your perspective, Kevin, having gone through this 120 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:43.110 apt blackboard and now in the early days at your current company. What are 121 00:08:43.230 --> 00:08:48.470 some of the things, the lessons learned from that previous experience that you're now 122 00:08:48.669 --> 00:08:50.710 applying? As you guys are right in the thick of things, is there 123 00:08:50.750 --> 00:08:56.740 anything from from that experience that's really informing your approach today? Yeah, absolutely. 124 00:08:56.820 --> 00:09:00.899 I think what we saw in the early days of black board was, 125 00:09:01.419 --> 00:09:05.379 as I mentioned earlier, we call ourselves the course management system and then eventually 126 00:09:05.379 --> 00:09:09.450 at volved to learning management systems. But ironically, learning management systems were out 127 00:09:09.450 --> 00:09:13.289 there, but they were doing something of a much smaller scale than the idea 128 00:09:13.330 --> 00:09:16.610 of what we had, so that we almost had to take the category back 129 00:09:18.210 --> 00:09:22.090 and I think what we're seeing at higher logic is what we call ourselves an 130 00:09:22.129 --> 00:09:26.000 engagement what we have is an engagement platform and ultimately, what we believe is 131 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:30.399 the best way to deliver engagement is through communities and we have a set of 132 00:09:30.440 --> 00:09:33.679 communication tools. Some folks won't know that as marketing on a nation tools. 133 00:09:33.720 --> 00:09:39.470 It's purposely designed for both association and corporations and a big area for us to 134 00:09:39.629 --> 00:09:46.029 grow is in the community space, certainly for for corporations. You know, 135 00:09:46.190 --> 00:09:50.470 for us we already have a great head start in terms of our you know, 136 00:09:50.549 --> 00:09:54.259 company size. We've got close to three thousand customers. There's, you 137 00:09:54.340 --> 00:09:58.500 know, tens of millions of users who are using our applications every day and 138 00:09:58.340 --> 00:10:03.659 you know. So for US we're trying to carve out what engagement platform means. 139 00:10:03.740 --> 00:10:07.330 You mentioned gain site. They're all dedicated to customers success, which is 140 00:10:07.370 --> 00:10:11.529 incredible. We're going after also the customer experience. So you've got customer experience, 141 00:10:11.769 --> 00:10:18.090 customers success, customers support. There's debate right now. I believe foresters 142 00:10:18.250 --> 00:10:22.679 making a big play to say customer experience ship own be owned by CMOS. 143 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:26.360 I think there's some folks. Maybe like gainsight, there should be a cut 144 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:30.759 the chief, you know, customer officer. So there's this race to help 145 00:10:30.879 --> 00:10:35.230 define what customer experience really means and we're partner that. We see ourselves written 146 00:10:35.309 --> 00:10:39.590 thick of things. But you know, there's plenty of people out there trying 147 00:10:39.629 --> 00:10:41.029 to carve out this space. So there is a race who I think, 148 00:10:41.110 --> 00:10:46.070 helped to find with, you know, essentially this customer experience, customer engagement 149 00:10:46.190 --> 00:10:48.870 category really is. So that's what one of the things that draw threw me 150 00:10:48.990 --> 00:10:52.539 to higher logic and I'm excited to go, you know, try to go 151 00:10:52.659 --> 00:10:56.940 fight this. Hey, everybody, Logan with sweetish here. If you've been 152 00:10:58.019 --> 00:11:01.500 listening to the show for a while, you know we're big proponents of putting 153 00:11:01.500 --> 00:11:05.769 out original, organic content, on Linke did, but one thing that's always 154 00:11:05.809 --> 00:11:09.529 been a struggle for a team like ours is to easily track the reach of 155 00:11:09.570 --> 00:11:13.490 that linkedin content. That's why I was really excited when I heard about shield 156 00:11:13.690 --> 00:11:16.289 the other day from a connection on you guessed it, linked in. 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It's been a game changer for us. 164 00:11:48.220 --> 00:11:52.419 If you go to shield APP DOT AI and check out the ten day free 165 00:11:52.500 --> 00:11:56.299 trial, you can even use our promo code be to be growth to get 166 00:11:56.340 --> 00:12:01.340 a twenty five percent discount. Again, that's shield APP DOT AI and that 167 00:12:01.490 --> 00:12:05.090 Promo Code is be the number to be growth. All one word. All 168 00:12:05.090 --> 00:12:11.610 right, let's get back to the show. Yeah, it's really interesting. 169 00:12:11.649 --> 00:12:18.879 I was just having a conversation internally with our team about customer experience versus customer 170 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:20.960 success. The way I look at it is, and I think a lot 171 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:26.600 of people fall in this camp, but maybe not, is that customer experience 172 00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:33.029 really is looking at the entire customer journey, from marketing sales to customer success, 173 00:12:33.070 --> 00:12:37.509 customer support and customer service, as well as account management. You know, 174 00:12:37.629 --> 00:12:41.070 there's fuzzy lines between all of those. But when I think about customer 175 00:12:41.149 --> 00:12:46.779 experience it is that overlay and then customer success is is a component of that, 176 00:12:48.100 --> 00:12:52.379 because there's parts of the customer journey that customer success doesn't touch, but 177 00:12:52.539 --> 00:12:56.740 the customer is still having an experience even before they are a customer. You 178 00:12:56.820 --> 00:13:01.690 know, side note for anybody who's really interested in that topic. Specifically we 179 00:13:01.490 --> 00:13:07.250 produce a show. You may know Ethan Beauty Cohost the CX series here on 180 00:13:07.370 --> 00:13:11.330 BB growth. His show over at bombomb, the customer experience podcast, is 181 00:13:11.450 --> 00:13:16.399 dedicated to that entire topic of customer experience and he opens up every interview with 182 00:13:16.600 --> 00:13:20.799 asking guests how did they define customer experience? And they're definitely been some common 183 00:13:20.919 --> 00:13:26.200 things, but there are some divergent answers. Seventy episodes or so in Kevin, 184 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:30.549 as you look at again your experience with blackboard and how you're taking that 185 00:13:30.750 --> 00:13:33.669 higher logic, where there are any of those, I wish I would have 186 00:13:33.750 --> 00:13:37.149 known this or man, we really beat our head against a wall in this 187 00:13:37.350 --> 00:13:41.379 area and then we found an open door. Any of those fail your lessons 188 00:13:41.419 --> 00:13:48.220 that you're bringing to your team as you guys develop your own category creation strategy. 189 00:13:48.340 --> 00:13:50.340 Now. Yeah, it's interesting. I think back in those early days, 190 00:13:50.419 --> 00:13:54.419 and you mentioned Max is position on, you know, making sure they 191 00:13:54.539 --> 00:13:56.610 have a true number one competitor. I mean I think if you look back 192 00:13:56.730 --> 00:14:01.929 even in the history of you know, advertisers, and you always had hurts 193 00:14:01.049 --> 00:14:05.210 versus a vis and Avis really taking on that, hey, we're number two, 194 00:14:05.889 --> 00:14:09.769 you know, kind of contact. I love that classic Ad Yeah, 195 00:14:09.809 --> 00:14:13.559 we are a small fish and we embrace it. And here's why it's better 196 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:18.200 for you right, exactly, and I you know, to say blackboard didn't 197 00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:22.759 take off until we had that number two. But we really at first we 198 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:28.590 shied away maybe from having those competitors or even blackboard acquired dozens of companies while 199 00:14:28.590 --> 00:14:31.429 I was there and in the history of it was probably north of twenty companies 200 00:14:31.470 --> 00:14:35.269 they had provided. But it was really when we can started to lean in 201 00:14:35.429 --> 00:14:39.740 to our number one competitor and actually not not really call them out as being, 202 00:14:41.019 --> 00:14:43.700 you know, essentially the evil empire, right, but more of an 203 00:14:43.740 --> 00:14:46.980 embracement like hey, we're trying to we're trying to fight this good fight together, 204 00:14:46.019 --> 00:14:50.899 right, like because we believe that education could be better by using distance 205 00:14:50.940 --> 00:14:56.450 learning and online learning tools and and really things started to shift when we took 206 00:14:56.529 --> 00:15:00.090 more of them, I would say, like a global community kind of feel 207 00:15:00.210 --> 00:15:03.730 to it and and made it our customers saying hey, well, they're good 208 00:15:03.730 --> 00:15:05.690 at some things and we're good at some things too. We believe we're the 209 00:15:05.769 --> 00:15:09.960 better choice. Here's why, here's our care key differentiators. Rather than ignore 210 00:15:09.960 --> 00:15:15.320 the competition or rather than put them down in a way, it's started to 211 00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:20.039 become more than embracing both from the sales and marketing perspective, not to fully 212 00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:22.789 allow them in, but to really just say we're doing this as part of 213 00:15:22.830 --> 00:15:26.710 the education community. Maybe, you know, the lesson learn is because the 214 00:15:26.750 --> 00:15:31.549 education community often has that we're all in this together type of thing where, 215 00:15:31.629 --> 00:15:35.190 you know, we're all about the student. Shouldn't the student have the best 216 00:15:35.230 --> 00:15:37.659 experience? And that's kind of the the mantra of what at the education, 217 00:15:37.700 --> 00:15:41.899 you know, community has. So when we pivot it a little bit more 218 00:15:41.059 --> 00:15:43.340 to have a little bit of that, you know, hey, let's include 219 00:15:43.379 --> 00:15:50.090 everybody kind of attitude and not really bash the competition. This isn't oracle versus 220 00:15:50.210 --> 00:15:52.490 sap, or Oracle versus, you know, sales force. Right. This 221 00:15:52.649 --> 00:15:56.250 is more about, hey, we're solving these problems together for the student and 222 00:15:56.929 --> 00:16:00.090 I think that was a big part of it. So I think one thing 223 00:16:00.090 --> 00:16:03.570 I would say is, like, if we're about customer experience and memory experience, 224 00:16:03.090 --> 00:16:06.120 at the end of the day, we're trying to create a better, 225 00:16:06.679 --> 00:16:10.639 you know experience to make sure that they get more out of their systems, 226 00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:15.039 their software, their association, you know, because that's how that's so critical 227 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:18.230 to the ways they need to connect. Yeah, that reminds me of an 228 00:16:18.309 --> 00:16:22.830 interview I heard was Singraum Vajre over it terminus recently and in just the way 229 00:16:22.990 --> 00:16:27.509 that even in the early days of terminus, to where they looked for competitors 230 00:16:27.549 --> 00:16:32.710 and brought them into events that they were organizing and made it more of an 231 00:16:32.750 --> 00:16:36.659 industry conference as opposed to, you know, a terminus event, and that 232 00:16:36.820 --> 00:16:40.580 actually lifted them up a good bit. By, you know, you're not 233 00:16:40.700 --> 00:16:45.059 necessarily bringing those competitors. I'm not saying outreaching sales lofter are buddy buddy, 234 00:16:45.059 --> 00:16:48.090 because that's definitely not the case right, but pointing out the fact that, 235 00:16:48.250 --> 00:16:52.490 a, we're all in this together and we're trying to solve a problem and 236 00:16:52.610 --> 00:16:56.610 the villain is not the competition but, as Donald Miller says all the time, 237 00:16:56.690 --> 00:17:00.169 to tell a good story your customer needs to be the hero, but 238 00:17:00.289 --> 00:17:04.680 you also need to identify what is the villain that they are trying to vanquish 239 00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:10.640 and that villain is is the problem? It's it's it's not the competition, 240 00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:14.440 and I think if you change that it will change a lot about your messaging 241 00:17:14.759 --> 00:17:18.549 and everything that you're doing. Yeah, so it's so right to be honest. 242 00:17:18.589 --> 00:17:19.349 You know, I mentioned back on those early days. You got to 243 00:17:19.349 --> 00:17:22.509 remember was like, you know, blackbird was started. The idea was around 244 00:17:22.509 --> 00:17:27.349 ninety six, formally large the ninety seven and and you know, Internet and 245 00:17:27.710 --> 00:17:32.220 computers in the class form really was and popular are. The enemy at that 246 00:17:32.339 --> 00:17:36.660 time was was the mouse. was literally the mouse. Teachers thought they were 247 00:17:36.660 --> 00:17:41.019 getting replaced by computers and keyboards and mice and not the old fashioned way of 248 00:17:41.140 --> 00:17:45.450 literally teaching in front of a white board or blackboard right. So they felt 249 00:17:45.490 --> 00:17:49.609 that was the best way. So our enemy was that that perception of know 250 00:17:51.089 --> 00:17:53.569 this computers and internet, you have to embrace it and, you know, 251 00:17:53.690 --> 00:17:57.250 to enable it for teaching and learning. Just it opens up so much more 252 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:02.400 and that was our enemy back in those early days. Yeah, so, 253 00:18:02.599 --> 00:18:06.799 that was. That was your internal enemy, but not necessarily the enemy that 254 00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:11.279 you are painting that the customers were fighting. They may be had a different 255 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:15.950 villain, right of the poor student experience or yeah, those sides are correct. 256 00:18:15.990 --> 00:18:18.309 Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Well, Kevin, if anybody 257 00:18:18.349 --> 00:18:22.349 listening to this is thinking, okay, how do we determine if going on 258 00:18:22.509 --> 00:18:26.700 this journey of category creation is right for us and if so, where do 259 00:18:26.779 --> 00:18:30.940 we get started? What advice would you give to those folks on the first 260 00:18:30.940 --> 00:18:34.339 point of deciding at that fork in the road and then, if they do 261 00:18:34.579 --> 00:18:38.819 choose the path less traveled, let's let's say, where to start with those 262 00:18:38.819 --> 00:18:41.369 first few steps? Yeah, I mean I think you got to look in 263 00:18:41.490 --> 00:18:45.769 where you certainly have to be happy with you or you have to look at 264 00:18:45.769 --> 00:18:48.930 what your growth plans are. So certainly, for higher logic, we want 265 00:18:48.970 --> 00:18:52.650 to look at what what is this platform mean for us? And it was 266 00:18:52.690 --> 00:18:55.839 certainly we have to look both the things that we can build in house, 267 00:18:56.240 --> 00:19:00.039 possibly looking at long term, what acquisitions we can do and ultimately, at 268 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:03.960 the end of the day, what problems are we solving for our customers? 269 00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:07.119 So we have to be able to say, you know, the world is 270 00:19:07.160 --> 00:19:11.269 changing so fast. A slight divergence here is, you know, four or 271 00:19:11.309 --> 00:19:15.190 five months ago we were going to trade shows and, you know, going 272 00:19:15.269 --> 00:19:18.150 crazy, and now we're not going anything. And you know, Google just 273 00:19:18.190 --> 00:19:19.750 announced they're not going, you know, their work from home for the next 274 00:19:19.789 --> 00:19:22.990 year. Right. So does that mean no one's going to trade shows for 275 00:19:23.029 --> 00:19:26.500 a year? How do you engage with other with your peer set and your 276 00:19:26.539 --> 00:19:30.980 members, you know, all of that things. So we think the best 277 00:19:30.019 --> 00:19:33.700 way to do that is certainly in our engagement platform. That said, how 278 00:19:33.779 --> 00:19:37.259 do we create other tool sets that we can meet the needs of our customers? 279 00:19:37.299 --> 00:19:41.009 It could be real time, it could be sacred as a syncretius. 280 00:19:41.049 --> 00:19:44.529 That doesn't matter what it is. You just got to figure it out. 281 00:19:44.529 --> 00:19:48.009 So I would say look at those in word, look at revive your strategy, 282 00:19:48.369 --> 00:19:51.369 look at your core positioning and message and and then, and then, 283 00:19:51.410 --> 00:19:55.200 I think, fright quite frankly, get some either third party validation or research 284 00:19:55.319 --> 00:19:59.119 to alter and onto this, to see what's already out there as we're doing 285 00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:02.039 what you know, the definition of what we're calling, and get eat the 286 00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:04.400 platform. There are so many players who are calling them those stuffs that but 287 00:20:04.519 --> 00:20:07.829 the categories yet to find so I think we can get in a leadership, 288 00:20:08.029 --> 00:20:11.470 you know, get out in front of this and help define it as as 289 00:20:11.509 --> 00:20:15.349 it's getting built. Yeah, so for those folks who look internally and say 290 00:20:15.430 --> 00:20:19.869 there is something here, we have competitors, we have an opportunity with category 291 00:20:19.950 --> 00:20:25.900 designed two, more clearly, put that flag in the sand and draw a 292 00:20:25.980 --> 00:20:29.380 circle around this is what this is. Let's define it. Here's what the 293 00:20:29.460 --> 00:20:32.539 category looks like. Here the players in the space. Here are the folks 294 00:20:32.579 --> 00:20:37.009 that maybe are be this terms being applied to, but it's not really the 295 00:20:37.170 --> 00:20:40.609 case. As we kind of draw the circle around it, and then you 296 00:20:40.930 --> 00:20:44.289 you have some of that healthy debate. Would you say, you know, 297 00:20:44.410 --> 00:20:48.529 the analyst relationships, starting with that research, looking at the competitive landscape. 298 00:20:48.569 --> 00:20:52.759 What would be top of your list for folks who say, Yep, we're 299 00:20:52.759 --> 00:20:55.759 going there and we need to start drawing that line in the sand, but 300 00:20:55.880 --> 00:20:57.559 where do we start? Yeah, I think you definitely have to see it 301 00:20:57.640 --> 00:21:00.799 with the third party as soon as you possibly kind as soon as you're comfortable 302 00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:04.509 doing it. The reason why is typically those folks move a lot slower than 303 00:21:04.710 --> 00:21:07.430 we're used to and you know, we can put out I can put out 304 00:21:07.430 --> 00:21:11.150 a campaign and add campaign and email campaign at the man gend campaign, whatever 305 00:21:11.150 --> 00:21:15.789 it is. I can pretty much these days turn that out very quickly, 306 00:21:15.829 --> 00:21:19.299 right, but to build relationships with the folks that matter, whether it's Gardner, 307 00:21:19.460 --> 00:21:22.859 the forester, the G two's of the world. Right, a lot 308 00:21:22.940 --> 00:21:25.859 of times that takes an awful long time to do it. They have their 309 00:21:25.900 --> 00:21:30.460 own cycles, they don't their own research at their own methodologies, and all 310 00:21:30.500 --> 00:21:33.329 of that is extremely legitimate, including they need the time to do the research 311 00:21:33.410 --> 00:21:37.569 to help talk to your competitors and build that out. It was many years 312 00:21:37.650 --> 00:21:41.170 in the making before we we have the switch from a course management system to 313 00:21:41.289 --> 00:21:45.809 a learning management system. In terms of building out that kind or that's years 314 00:21:45.849 --> 00:21:48.279 in the making. I don't know if that could be sped up in any 315 00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:52.000 way, but I would see the analysts and the G two's of the world 316 00:21:52.359 --> 00:21:55.640 as fast as you can, as soon as you are ready and know your 317 00:21:55.720 --> 00:21:59.599 core position. Yeah, that's great advice, Kevin, for anybody listening to 318 00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:02.269 this with that would like to pick your brain a little bit, shoot you 319 00:22:02.309 --> 00:22:06.309 a follow up question or just stay connected with you, Linkedin or otherwise? 320 00:22:06.390 --> 00:22:08.710 What's the best way for them to reach out or stay connected? Yeah, 321 00:22:08.710 --> 00:22:12.509 I'm both on Linkedin and twitter. Linkedin is Kevin A landsky. Sure it'll 322 00:22:12.509 --> 00:22:15.549 be in the show notes, I hope. How does spell my name? 323 00:22:15.779 --> 00:22:18.180 The one that guy asked on Linkedin is just tell me you heard me on 324 00:22:18.220 --> 00:22:19.500 the BDB growth show. You know, we all get a lot of linked 325 00:22:19.539 --> 00:22:23.220 in requests and a lot of times there's no note in there, so sometimes 326 00:22:23.259 --> 00:22:26.660 it's a little easier to know where it came from. So that's great. 327 00:22:26.819 --> 00:22:30.890 Just just reference to show and then I'm at all landsky on twitter. I 328 00:22:30.970 --> 00:22:33.210 love it. Well, Kevin, thank you so much for joining us on 329 00:22:33.250 --> 00:22:36.089 the show today. I'll let you get back to your afternoon. Maybe a 330 00:22:36.130 --> 00:22:38.849 good bike ride is in your future. This has been a great conversation. 331 00:22:40.329 --> 00:22:45.559 Thanks, Logan. All the best. Is the decisionmaker for your product or 332 00:22:45.640 --> 00:22:49.759 service a BB marketer? Are you looking to reach those buyers through the medium 333 00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:56.960 of podcasting? Considered becoming a cohost of BB growth? This show is consistently 334 00:22:56.000 --> 00:23:00.029 ranked as a top one hundred podcast in the marketing category of Apple Podcasts, 335 00:23:00.309 --> 00:23:06.069 and the show gets more than a hundred and thirtyzero downloads each month. We've 336 00:23:06.109 --> 00:23:08.990 already done the work of building the audience, so you can focus on delivering 337 00:23:10.109 --> 00:23:15.259 incredible content to our listeners. If you're interested, email logan at sweet fish 338 00:23:15.299 --> Mediacom