Transcript
WEBVTT
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Welcome back to be to be growth. I'm Logan lyles with sweet fish media.
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I'm joined today by Andrew Holly.
He's the CMO over at binder.
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Andrew, welcome to the show.
How are you today, sir? I'm
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fantastic. It's great to be with
you, Logan. Well, thanks again
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for joining us, Andrew. We've
been asking some fun questions to get to
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know our guests a little bit,
and one of the things I would love
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to know, Andrew, have you
picked up any fun or interesting hobbies during
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this time of quarantine and self isolation? Only I would actually say I've dropped
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a few, and I don't know
why this is so. Music is something
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I'm very interested in play instruments,
but I had picked up the electric base
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to play with my son, who
plays like a guitar. I've been doing
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less of that. I had also
intended to start meditating. I didn't do
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that and I've kind of stopped doing
my inhome workouts. So I find actually
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I'm having trouble finding the scope to
do some of those things I'd like to
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do. The only constant has been
bike riding. I've I've been bike riding
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a lot and I think maybe that's
been a really good release for me.
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Yeah, has that been outdoors,
actual bike riding, or are you one
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of those Peloton fans in inside the
house? For me it's all about being
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outside, man. I'd rather be
biking through the hail that inside on a
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Pelaton. Pelotons are super cool,
but for me a lot of it's just
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being out in the fresh air,
especially because we're behind the screen enough right
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at work. I don't know that
I want to be behind a screen when
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I'm bike R getting. Yeah,
I hear you to each is on there,
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but I tend to lean that direction
with you, and you're especially out
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here in Colorado, where I'm at, where we've got a lot of fresh
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air. Well, we're going to
be talking about the hype over personalization.
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That the back and forth it that
everybody has been on here and really,
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where are we at with personalization today
as bb marketers, and what are we
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going to do about it? So, to kick off that conversation, Andrew,
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why is this something for yourself as
a be tob marketer that you're so
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passionate about speaking to today? Sure, I think it starts to I've just
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been a you know, be to
be marketing junkie. I've worked in the
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industry for a long time, you
know, for Martech venders and part of
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that ecosystem and for the longest time
really been part of that twenty year push
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to get better, more personalized.
But when I came to binder and I
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saw the tremendous creativity happening on kind
of the content asset creative side, it
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really kind of opened my eyes to
that and when, in talking to our
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customer base, we see the growing
emphasis on that, that really kind of
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awakened this self admitted data junkie to
the power of creative and to start to
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look at where it's all going.
Yeah, absolutely. So let's set the
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stage a little bit. I know
that there were some some research that you've
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pointed to recently that really kind of
shows us, one, how marketers are
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thinking about day and personalization and then
also how the folks that we're reaching on
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the other end, are buyers,
regardless of be to be or BTC,
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how they're feeling about the use of
that data. Give us a little bit
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there as we set the stage.
Yes, you bet, you know.
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Naturally want you start to kind of
think about something either the first a second
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thing we do is jump on Google
and start finding out what of others found
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out about it. So when we
started thinking, Hey, you know,
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you know, I think the high
water mark of personalization might be upon us,
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you go in search and have others
been looking at this, and like
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right up at the top of the
search results. It was remarkable. I
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saw just back in December that Gartner, actually not exactly someone who tries to
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be on the very leading edge of
things. Right, Gartner, predicted that
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eighty percent of marketers will abandon personalization
efforts by two thousand and twenty five and
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that was kind of like wow.
I mean gardener, as you know,
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makes a lot of money doing good
work, but, you know, supporting
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the efforts of technology vendors to get
their message across. So for them to
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come out with that as like whom? Okay, maybe you're onto something,
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you know, on the on the
consumer side, and one of the four
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reasons, you know, I think
we're we've seen this high water mark of
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personalization and micro segmenting. You know, you reference the personalization it you don't
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have to deal too far to see
evidence of, you know, consumer annoyance
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at minimum and perhaps even consumer backlash
at what some people call surveillance marketing.
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are familiar with that term, so
they haven't quite heart it put exactly that
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way, but unpack that a little
bit. If for folks who haven't heard
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surveillance marketing, it's just it's the
fact that our systems are tracking data about
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US constantly. We are constantly under
surveillance. At least it used to be
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when we're just on the computer.
Now it's whenever we're carrying our phone.
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And now do you have? You
Have Alexa in your house? I do
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not, but I have a Google
home speaker, so now it's even you.
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We were not on the screen,
we're just talking. We're being surveiled
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and people are becoming aware of this
and then they noticed it when it intrudes
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into marketing. And I think just
about everybody I know has a story of
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surveillance marketing or personalization gone wrong.
Do you have one of these? Like
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annoying? I was sitting. I
was sitting in an airport and struck up
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a conversation while I was waiting for
a flight at the restaurant in the airport
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and the gentleman I was talking to
I mentioned, Hey, I'm in marketing.
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I work for a podcast agency forget
what he does. It, think
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some sort of some sort of sales, and we got to talk about marketing,
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naturally, because that's where it kind
of goes, and he mentioned,
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you know, I started seeing these
ads for a new FO hundred fifty four
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pickup truck. I had not touched
Google, I had not typed in anything,
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and he said then I thought about
it. Well, we've had an
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Amazon Echo in our house for a
couple of weeks, right, and he
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was like looking back over his shoulder
as he told this story. Exactly.
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For me it's Hawaiian shirts. I
searched for that once. I bought one
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three or four years ago. Those
ads still follow me. I get ads
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for compression socks. My wife has
had a store foot like you know.
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How do they connected? No doubt
through my family's IP address. So you
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know, we all have the innecdotal
stories, but your roll them up,
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you see. You know, I
saw a study recently over seventy five percent
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of consumers think that most forms of
add personalization are at least somewhat creepy.
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And it's not just that we find
that. Increasingly we are expressing that it's
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anytime this goes wrong. What does
the first person thing people do. You
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take to social media and say,
I can't believe it, I just got
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this this in this you know the
survey that I said that I saw USAID
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about ten to twenty percent of people
reporting on social media on this happened.
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So it's not just that the ads
don't work. Consumers increasingly calling brands out
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for getting this balance wrong. And
then the other way that the consumers are
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expressing their dislike of these tactics is
through legislation right in Europe. Europe moved
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first with GDP are, which almost
all of your audience will be familiar with,
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and now coming online is the California
Consumer Protection of acts. So you
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know, Gd prouts becoming legislative,
which is going to increase cost for doing
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this, reducing the scope in the
data we can use. And again one
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of three or four reasons why I
think we are at that high water mark
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of personalization and microsegmentation. One of
the things that was interesting I saw in
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some of the data you sided it
as we were going back and forth before
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this episode, Andrew, was that, you know, we talked about the
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push back from from, I'm buyers
Gartner looking at a personalization there there may
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be an end to the way that
we've been we've been trending, as you
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mentioned, a high water mark,
but still a lot of marketers are saying,
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they're saying at least, that personalization
is leading to results, it is
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driving positive impact. Why is there
some of that disconnect in the space right
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now? Do you think sure?
Well, two things. First of all,
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relevance is good. There's no disputing
that. Right when we get,
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for example, an advertisement for an
ink tone or cartridge for our printer and
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we're about empty like that's a good
thing. So I think being relevant is
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good. Being target is going to
good. We're not going to retreat from
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that again. My my my assertion
is that we've reached kind of the high
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water mark right, and so that
instead of being able to go a lot
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further, the Roi of additional investment
in personalization, of micro segmenting, is
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on the decline. It's going to
be going down and therefore it's really a
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rebalancing rather than a retreat, with
more emphasis, more investment and more Roi,
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frankly, from marketers investing in creative
in content, in brand in storytelling.
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So it's a rebalancing, not a
retreat. But but I will,
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I will share that when I,
you know, was doing some background research
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on this and digging into some of
the reports. For example, I don't
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know if you're familiar with the the
ever gage state of personalization. You know
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there are a Martech vender or successful. Their yearly stats have become, you
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know, something of a go to. You dig into that and even though
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just about everyone says they're doing personalization, only about thirty percent feel that they're
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doing right. According to the last
year, only thirteen percent feel, quote,
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very confident about their strategy. And
then when you look at the lift
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chart, the biggest one that those
common answer is one to ten percent lift.
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That's not a whole lot of lift
for something that we've been going at
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for over twenty years and talking about
throwing even more tech at ai and machine
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learning and and all those sorts of
things. Right, exactly, exactly.
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So again, not that we're retreating. Targeting relevance is good. It's just
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that we're kind of it's going to
get harder to squeeze more blood from this
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stone logan. Yeah, I love
that. So, Andrew, you talked
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a little bit about not retreating away
from here, but taking the level of
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personalization that we can do. That
allows us for good targeting and relevant messages,
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and what you're advocating for is then
using that to to bolster our creative
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so that it is we lean into
better, better storytelling that are targeted and
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relevant, but not down to the
one to one level necessarily. Tell us
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a little bit about that balance and
kind of what that looks like and maybe
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where you've seen it done well recently. Sure. Well, I think first
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of all, let's remember that creative
has always mattered, right. I mean
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in the last let's in a little
over two decades, we've gotten so focused
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on data driven marketing and that was
that was good. You know, when
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the world started going digital, all
of a sudden markers had data. We
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were no longer stuck in that old
world of you know, I know half
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by marketing is wasted, just not
which half you know. So so that's
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all good and we've been pursuing that. But creative is always mattered. If
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you think about what has impact,
what ads have impact on you, like,
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if you want to, if can
you remember any advertising that's Logan that
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just kind of naturally you remember and
had an impact on you off the top
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of your head man, that's a
that's a really good question, you know,
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actually one that I have cited offline
chatting with people that I it didn't
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necessarily have a huge impact on me, but I thought it that it was
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really well done because it spoke to
the realities that I know are true as
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a parent. So it was actually
the local children's hospital or the Children's hospital
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network here in Colorado, and it
cut from child to child and said I
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need a smaller needle, I need
you know this and that, and it
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spoke about the nuances of hospital care
for children versus adults. We're not the
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same as adults, and all these
kids kept saying it in different ways and
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that just really resonated with me as
a parent and those are the sorts of
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things that when I'm thinking about okay, unfortunately, when we have to go
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for medical care, especially for the
kids, it's it's stressful. It's even
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more stressful right now. This was
pretty covid and everything, and I still
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thought and they really spoke to the
situation that I know to be true now.
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They didn't say hey, your nine
year old daughter's name is that a
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Dada? I didn't become creepy,
but it was relevant, it was a
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good storytelling, and so to me
that's kind of an example of, I
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think, what you're talking about hearing. Yeah, that might be the best
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example actually that I've had in these
conversations. It was that story, it
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was the creative the images of the
children resonated with you, and that's exactly
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the point. No one remembers some
highly personalized add right. You remember the
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ads that have great creative storytelling,
things like that. Now, that's always
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been true, but it's even true, you know, in the digital age.
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I saw a facebook marketing science as
Webbin our last month when they were
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talking about these topics and they cited
Nielsen research that even for online and mobile
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ads, fifty six percent of add
performance was respased on the creative not some
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are getting not channel, things like
that. So it's always been true.
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It's even more true now, and
I think one thing that's happening is that
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a really interesting development is so,
after so many years of Martech focusing on
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targeting, personalization data, we now
see personal as it Marteg, focusing on
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the creative side. So you mentioned
one time, you know, kind of
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targeting it things like that. Now
that we've got, you know, all
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this online data. How can we
use that to better test creative concepts,
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to figure out that and get data
driven insight into the creative process, which
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is pretty new. And the other
interesting sort of way, you know Mar
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Tech is starting to impact the creative
side of the house is to help creative
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teams meet this surge in demand for
content that was created by online channels,
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by the need to come up with
fifteen different versions of a creative for different
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segments, versions for testing, versions
for localization, different sizes for online adds.
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This put a mountain of content demand
on the creative team that we work
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with and really I think was one
reason why quality. How could you match
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the quality level? And you're trying
to do all that? So that's that's
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that's why you get this kind of
digital sameness feel right. Well, now
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now technology is getting the point where, if you think about that add campaign,
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you really have got one core creative
concept and then the other ninety nine
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variations. They're like five percent different, size, slightly different, maybe one
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thing is changed for a test.
Those are limited enough creative dimensions that automation
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can start to help. So now
we've starting to develop tools for creative automation
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that take care of that portfolio of
tweaks that are needed to creatives and allowing
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a that that that surging demand to
be met, but without completely knackering our
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creative teams and leaving them room to
focus on storytelling great creative like that children's
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hospital ad that you mentioned. Yeah, that's a really great way to put
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it, Andrew. If we think
about this for marketing teams that are hearing
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this and they say, okay,
based on this example, this really makes
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sense. Now what what can we
start to do to basically follow this framework
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of okay, we know the demographic
we know the target that we're going after,
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we understand the story that we want
to tell. We want to create
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a something that ninety percent of which
is going to stay the same, but
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there's a five to ten percent variants. Where do you suggest teams that don't
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necessarily have the tech in place to
kind of automate all of that, but
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how did they build a framework of
these are the five things that we need
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to think about of the five to
ten percent variable that we might change in
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maybe ten different iterations here, so
that they're following this framework of not trying
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to change everything. Their creative team
really focuses on telling a core great story,
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but then they are able to apply
the automation and the the AB testing
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to the different aspects in a way
that is actually efficient and doesn't have to
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go back to the drawing board every
time. Yeah, that's a really interesting
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question, Logan and and I think
that's still getting figured out, but I've
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I'll share two observations from what I've
seen. The first is some of binders,
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customers her are doing well here,
have put a lot of the burden
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of creating versions in the more downstream
consumers of the content. So, for
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example, the digital teams, the
social media advertising teams are more responsible for
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making those numer vernuess variations. They're
not putting that burden on the core creative
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team. So that's one kind of
organizational dimension. And then I think the
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other one is now that we've got
platforms, you know, with like such
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as you know social media, you
know facebook, their ad platforms, allow
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the data about creative performance too much
more steamlessly flow upstream and to maybe allow
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some overall testing to look at what
are the aspects of creative that actually have
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the most room to impact performance.
So, in other words, maybe we
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can use the social media platforms,
the online plat AD platforms, to help
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us understand what are the two out
of the ten variables we can work on
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that really move the needle from a
creative resonance perspective. Yeah, are in
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the customers that you work with and
the other marketing teams you talk to,
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Andrew, are there any recurring themes
that you see in this this lever,
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this variable more often is having a
bigger effect when we pull this lever versus
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this one, meaning, you know, location targeting, this type of variable
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in the creative are you seeing any
trends there right now? I think one
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trend just might be on an increasing
focus on video. Right. So overall
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add spend, video is the fastest
growing part of online ad spend and it
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seems that that is a better place
to invest storytelling and brand right as well.
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As you still got to be able
to vary that. That's very important.
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But if you just think of the
nature, how much of a story
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can you tell with static adds versus
video? So we see more attention being
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paid to create, to video as
a medium, as a content type.
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So not quite the same as what
you ask as far as kind of which
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of these dimensions, but that that's
just one thing that kind of jumps out
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as the growing importance of video,
and it's one because that's consumers prefer it,
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but it's also, I think,
a medium that better supports quality,
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creative, quality content. It's got
a higher bar, if you will.
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Yeah, absolutely, and changing up
some of those variables in a different call
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to action or a different opening,
if you have the again, the ninety
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percent, that isn't going to change
in that video. Again, the downstream
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digital and social teams that have some
video capabilities can play around with that as
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as they take the core of what
the creative team has has provided. So
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I think it fits into that that
organizational recommendation that you were backing earlier and
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it's something we're playing with, playing
around with right now. We've started to
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do a lot more video con tent
both organically but also in paid social so,
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for instance, with this show be
to be growth, we will take
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a twenty twond to two minute clip
of the the punchiest segment and use that
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as organic linkedin content through our evangelists
here on the team on Linkedin. But
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we're also doing is, you know, retargeting folks that have hit our site
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or fit a our audience on facebook
and using those short video clips to promote
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the podcast, so that we're using
those ads to drive people to our pillar
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piece of content and playing with a
few variables there. So that's kind of
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how it's playing playing out for us
here as we finishes as a small team,
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based on what you're talking about.
Andrew. Yeah, that's that's neat
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and you guys do it really well. You've touched on, I think,
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one actually additional dimension that I think
really interesting. I think might be worth
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the audience kind of hearing about as
they as they think through where they'll be
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making investments in coming years. And
so you touched on, you know,
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facebook as the platform that you're steering
video down to. And I think the
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fourth kind of interesting thing about this, you know, have we meet reach
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a high water mark and investment in
personalization, in microsecmenting, is the role
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being played by the online duopoly of
Google and facebook right they they're responsible for
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such a large amount of the add
traffic. Now would be to be audience
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as Linkedin's part of their also,
and I think you could argue Amazon for
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some product selling. But I think
at the end of the day, when
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you look forward that unless a business
is the scale of a Walmart or a
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capital one, Google and facebook are
going to be doing the majority of the
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heavy lifting when it comes to really
targeting and personalizing these ads. They've got
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the data, a scary amount of
data on all consumers. They have the
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data scientists and the algorithms and increasingly
they're flexing their muscles over the AD tech
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value chain. Right you can no
longer with video ads. You can't have
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dynamic add assembly, which is something
that third party add tech vendors can do
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for static images, but as video
grows they're not allowed to do that.
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Google getting rid of, you know, a third party cookies is another example.
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So you're wise to be using linkedin
facebook and I think increasingly they'll be
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able to do a lot of this
for marketers. It will not make sense
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for marketers to slice their target segments
into a thousand little micro segments and try
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to find those twenty individuals across social
media that fit each of the segments.
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Performance is much better. Let Google
figure it out, let facebook figure it
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out and increasingly I think you see
the lift is better when these platforms are
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given maximum latitude, define the right
sort of targets. Interesting. It's really
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interesting take there and drew, I
love the way that you've kind of unpacked
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the data that you've looked at,
both from, you know, the analyst
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side, the buyer side, the
brand side. You know, we started
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there and talking about some tweaks that
marketers can make, both organizationally and the
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way that they approach their creative and
then finally, you know, who do
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you let do the targeting? How
do you how do you actually go out
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and test that? So to me
we've kind of brought it full circle there.
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If there's anything else that that you'd
like to share with listeners today that
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that you think would would help them
as they as they take this and think,
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okay, what can we do this
week? What can we do next
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week, as we take what's been
shared today? Any final thoughts for folks?
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Well, ironically, coming from a
Martech person, I think just don't
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believe the hype right when it comes
to you know, marketing vendors. We
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create a lot of momentum around you
know, technology and what can be done,
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but just you got to keep it
where, you know, keep that
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over here and think hard about your
own business, about building your own brand
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and don't get caught up in fear
of missing out. I think is one
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thing that I try to do for
myself at least. And then another little
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interesting thing to keep in mind that
maybe some guidance around personalization, microtargeting,
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and I don't know where I heard
this. I'd love to attribute this,
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but just think to yourself, what's
the experience you're looking for when you walk
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into a cornal store and you know
that neighborhood store that knows you? What's
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the experience that's good versus creepy with
them? And that's usually a pretty good
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yard stick to use when thinking through. You know which amount of personalizations you
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we do, because clearly consumers have
told us what we can do is not
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always what we should do. I
love that. That that's great advice.
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It's great parenting advice. That's great
marketing advice. Right there, Andrew,
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a solid note to end the show
on today. Well, thank you so
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much for being our guest, Andrew. If anybody listening to this would like
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to ask some follow up questions on
the topic today or just stay connected with
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you as a fellow be tob marketing. That what's the best way for them
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to reach out? Well, it's
always easy to find me at Andrew J
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00:24:15.900 --> 00:24:21.059
holly h all I on twitter.
You can follow us on the bindercom blog
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as well, and then love connecting
on Linkedin. I love it, Andrew.
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Thank you so much for being on
the show today. Here's to hoping
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some of those worthwhile hobbies get get
some more time in the weeks ahead.
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Man. Thanks, Kinley. Logan. Is the decisionmaker for your product or
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00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:41.759
service a bebb marketer? Are you
looking to reach those buyers through the medium
340
00:24:41.799 --> 00:24:48.000
of podcasting? Consider becoming a cohost
of BB growth. This show is consistently
341
00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:52.069
ranked as a top one hundred podcast
in the marketing category of Apple Podcasts,
342
00:24:52.349 --> 00:24:56.349
and the show gets more than a
hundred and thirty thousand downloads each month.
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00:24:56.869 --> 00:25:00.430
We've already done the work of building
the audience, so you can focus on
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00:25:00.549 --> 00:25:07.069
delivering incredible content to our listeners.
If you're interested, email logan at sweet
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00:25:07.069 --> 00:25:07.980
fish mediacom.