1321: 4 Key Metrics For Efficient Revenue Operations w/ Jason Reichl

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.879 --> 00:00:09.109 Welcome back to beb growth. I'm looking lyles with street fish media. I'm 2 00:00:09.109 --> 00:00:13.550 joined today by Jason Richele. He's the CEO over at go nimbly. Jason, 3 00:00:13.669 --> 00:00:17.670 welcome to the show. We'd love to ask our guests and opening question 4 00:00:17.829 --> 00:00:21.269 to get to know them a little bit. So my question for you today 5 00:00:21.309 --> 00:00:25.739 is what was the first concert you ever went to? Okay, well, 6 00:00:25.899 --> 00:00:28.739 thank you for having me, Logan. I'm excited to be here. First 7 00:00:28.780 --> 00:00:33.179 concert that I remember going to on my own accord was this band. It 8 00:00:33.299 --> 00:00:36.210 was an rb band, which is funny. If anyone knows me, I 9 00:00:36.450 --> 00:00:40.609 played in rock and roll bands my entire life and toured the country playing music. 10 00:00:41.170 --> 00:00:43.850 But the first band everyone saw was his band called all for one, 11 00:00:44.450 --> 00:00:48.490 and all for one was playing at the county fair Nya and Washington state where 12 00:00:48.490 --> 00:00:52.679 I grew up, and I had got my mom to take me and my 13 00:00:52.759 --> 00:00:55.320 best friend to the fair and then let us go to the concert on our 14 00:00:55.359 --> 00:01:00.079 own, and their popular song was a song called I swear, which was 15 00:01:00.159 --> 00:01:03.510 a really popular arty songs. Yeah, and I remember looking at my friend 16 00:01:03.549 --> 00:01:06.629 Matthew and being like, Oh my God, I really wish I had a 17 00:01:06.670 --> 00:01:10.829 girl here with me. Yeah, to o RB concert. Yeah, here 18 00:01:10.870 --> 00:01:15.310 you man. I love that story, just a little peek into into growing 19 00:01:15.349 --> 00:01:17.950 up. I didn't recognize the name of the band, but I was like 20 00:01:18.030 --> 00:01:19.819 as soon as you said I swear, I was like, Oh, I 21 00:01:19.180 --> 00:01:23.500 remember that and I love how you said the first concert I remember going to 22 00:01:23.659 --> 00:01:26.739 on my own accord. It's sometimes it's like that, that shot back into 23 00:01:26.780 --> 00:01:32.060 the memory bank. Awesome, Jason. I appreciate you dealing with my curveball 24 00:01:32.099 --> 00:01:34.730 question as we get going and have a little bit of fun. Today we 25 00:01:34.849 --> 00:01:40.409 are going to be getting into this topic of prioritizing work based on revenue impact, 26 00:01:40.489 --> 00:01:44.730 especially for marketing, sales and CS teams. Why is this something that 27 00:01:44.890 --> 00:01:49.359 you're so passionate about right now, Jason? Yeah, so go nimbly is 28 00:01:49.680 --> 00:01:55.200 a revenue operations company, and so revenue operations is a new way of running 29 00:01:55.799 --> 00:02:00.120 the operational part of your sales, marketing customer success team. Traditionally it was 30 00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:02.349 called sales ops, are marketing ops. For those of you who are listening, 31 00:02:02.390 --> 00:02:06.909 who are maybe are in marketing operations, and revenue operations is the idea 32 00:02:06.989 --> 00:02:10.430 that you bring all of those sub operation teams who usually report to the you 33 00:02:10.509 --> 00:02:15.819 know, the vpa of marketing or the the head of sales into one team 34 00:02:15.900 --> 00:02:19.300 that stands next to those people, called the revenue operations team, and their 35 00:02:19.379 --> 00:02:27.300 job is to prioritize the processes, the the systems, the the enablement and 36 00:02:27.460 --> 00:02:31.169 the analytics and insights of your go to market team, which we expand to 37 00:02:31.169 --> 00:02:37.330 sales, marketing, customer success, to prioritize that against your customer experience and 38 00:02:37.530 --> 00:02:39.650 that allows you to know what things to be working on when, what processes 39 00:02:39.729 --> 00:02:44.919 to be changing how, and it's done through sort of a lens of trying 40 00:02:44.960 --> 00:02:50.039 to make the operations team its own entity within a business that actually can contribute 41 00:02:50.039 --> 00:02:52.879 revenue back to the business. So we've seen through our work or working with 42 00:02:52.919 --> 00:02:55.360 SASS companies, and we work with just ass companies, large enterprise be to 43 00:02:55.360 --> 00:03:00.189 be SASS company, is that we can pick up about twenty six percent more 44 00:03:00.310 --> 00:03:04.270 revenue off each prospect by using this method, by prioritizing the customer journey, 45 00:03:04.590 --> 00:03:07.310 by focusing on revenue impact, as you mentioned, Logan, and ultimately, 46 00:03:07.389 --> 00:03:09.069 what you can do, as you know, if a customer is going to 47 00:03:09.110 --> 00:03:12.830 spend a hundred dollars, they'll spend a hundred and twenty six dollars with you 48 00:03:12.939 --> 00:03:17.060 instead. And so this process has led a lot of organizations to, you 49 00:03:17.139 --> 00:03:22.259 know, grow or from a revenue perspective, with the same CAC rite, 50 00:03:22.300 --> 00:03:25.139 the same the same cost of acquisition, and so that's been a very interesting 51 00:03:25.180 --> 00:03:29.129 thing and we've kind of spearheaded this over the last four years and now it's 52 00:03:29.129 --> 00:03:32.129 a thing where any revenue operations job is one of the most popular trending job 53 00:03:32.289 --> 00:03:37.250 titles on Linkedin. So we've really seen it kind of grow and I've been 54 00:03:37.289 --> 00:03:40.560 in the forefront of that movement. But it comes because I worked in Sass 55 00:03:40.879 --> 00:03:45.879 for a long time as had a product at a couple of organizations and I 56 00:03:45.879 --> 00:03:49.439 saw that we could build amazing products, actually that every SASS company's ever worked 57 00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:53.879 at. The engineers and the product managers have been amazing, but we couldn't 58 00:03:53.879 --> 00:03:58.229 always sell those products because we didn't always have the best revenue teams, we 59 00:03:58.310 --> 00:04:00.469 didn't always have the best you know sales and marketing and in the processes didn't 60 00:04:00.469 --> 00:04:03.909 always work and sometimes the product outshined all that. But you could see tell 61 00:04:04.030 --> 00:04:09.750 that the product could be selling back maneuvering better, and so that's where we 62 00:04:09.870 --> 00:04:12.699 came and said okay, we need to unify and teach the SASS companies on 63 00:04:12.780 --> 00:04:16.420 how to actually operate a business, so to speak, and the best product 64 00:04:16.500 --> 00:04:21.100 does not always win the market. That I think most of our listeners would 65 00:04:21.420 --> 00:04:25.769 agree with that. I love the way that you called out the different friends 66 00:04:25.810 --> 00:04:30.290 between customer success and customer experience. I'm a regular listener of one of our 67 00:04:30.329 --> 00:04:35.290 customers shows, bombomb ethimputed over their host the customer experience podcast, and he 68 00:04:35.410 --> 00:04:41.759 opens every interview with a definition of customer experience and what I've heard from, 69 00:04:41.879 --> 00:04:46.439 I think, seventy plus guests on that show veryly regularly, is something that 70 00:04:46.519 --> 00:04:49.959 you've talked about here. You touched on, Jason, that customer experience overlays 71 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:55.589 the entire customer journey. Customer success is once we once we get them as 72 00:04:55.589 --> 00:04:58.629 a customer, how do we make them successful? How do we grow that 73 00:04:58.750 --> 00:05:01.790 relationship? How do we retain that revenue? Right, it's a subset of 74 00:05:01.949 --> 00:05:05.790 the customer experience. I hear a lot of people using customer experience and Customer 75 00:05:05.829 --> 00:05:11.540 Success Interchangeably, but I think there's a key distinction and it sounds like you're 76 00:05:11.660 --> 00:05:15.779 like minded there as well, Jason. Let's talk a little bit about where 77 00:05:15.819 --> 00:05:20.339 where you begin? So you mentioned increasing the revenue per customers. So not 78 00:05:20.449 --> 00:05:26.529 necessarily in increasing the number of customers, but increasing the revenue per customer, 79 00:05:26.529 --> 00:05:30.089 which can be a very big lever because, as you mentioned, you're not 80 00:05:30.290 --> 00:05:34.959 driving up CAC but you are increasing the revenue per customer. Where do you 81 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:39.319 kind of start with teams? As you look at all it if today, 82 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:42.920 even especially, if they have salesops, they have marketing ops, they don't 83 00:05:42.959 --> 00:05:46.319 have one revenue operations team. Where do you kind of start on? Here's 84 00:05:46.360 --> 00:05:50.310 some quick wins we can get to either get them working together or look for 85 00:05:50.509 --> 00:05:55.430 some low hanging fruit to gain efficiency in have a new operations yeah, I 86 00:05:55.550 --> 00:05:57.709 hear the very pointed question there, but I'm going to take it on the 87 00:05:57.790 --> 00:06:00.550 slight detour to give a little bit more context and day. We'd love that. 88 00:06:00.829 --> 00:06:03.459 And so the reason that we have these problems as businesses in the first 89 00:06:03.500 --> 00:06:06.540 place is something called Silos Syndrome. I don't know if you ever heard of 90 00:06:06.579 --> 00:06:11.980 psiloin it's very natural for humans to do. The person who coined this was 91 00:06:12.060 --> 00:06:15.459 a basically a process engineer for good year tires in the S is names Phil 92 00:06:15.779 --> 00:06:19.410 and Phil traveled to all the goodyear tire locations that I don't know if you 93 00:06:19.449 --> 00:06:21.610 remember when you're a kid, but good year tire was everywhere. It was 94 00:06:21.649 --> 00:06:25.970 like on every block. It was right. And so he would travel around 95 00:06:25.970 --> 00:06:28.529 and try to get these organizations to work together, but they all kind of 96 00:06:28.569 --> 00:06:30.970 ran as independent entities because, and he got a lot of push back like 97 00:06:30.970 --> 00:06:34.839 you don't understand the market. Our customers are different than you know Cincinnati customers. 98 00:06:34.879 --> 00:06:38.000 They want this, they want that, you know, so on and 99 00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:40.519 so forth. And he didn't understand because they were just selling tires right. 100 00:06:40.519 --> 00:06:44.480 He didn't understand why these people were so protective. He was driving to Iowa 101 00:06:44.759 --> 00:06:47.750 and he realized when he was passing these grain silos of corn that Oh, 102 00:06:47.829 --> 00:06:50.470 they're all on their own silos. They're all on their own silos, and 103 00:06:50.509 --> 00:06:53.670 that's and so he came up with his term. He spent the rest of 104 00:06:53.750 --> 00:06:57.149 his career. He left, he left good year, but he's been the 105 00:06:57.189 --> 00:07:00.470 rest of his career trying to break down these silos and found it to be 106 00:07:00.550 --> 00:07:03.699 next to impossible. But there was a couple of reasons why these agree get 107 00:07:03.779 --> 00:07:09.819 created in organizations and one was degree of specialization as you grow. So organizations 108 00:07:09.860 --> 00:07:12.660 become too specialized. They have a person who does X, they have person 109 00:07:12.699 --> 00:07:15.339 who does why. Those people can no longer communicate to each each other. 110 00:07:15.420 --> 00:07:18.370 So they just stop the number of difference, and especially in Sass, right, 111 00:07:18.490 --> 00:07:23.850 because over the last what is it fifteen years, we've all grown up 112 00:07:23.970 --> 00:07:30.040 in SASS on this model of specialization because of the the increased efficiency it can 113 00:07:30.079 --> 00:07:32.360 have, but we've kind of swung too far, basically right, and now 114 00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:34.439 I'll tell you. I'll tell a story about that in a second. But 115 00:07:34.519 --> 00:07:39.240 then there's the second piece, which is number of different incentives. So you 116 00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:42.639 can carry that to Sass marketings, instant of as different than sales, different 117 00:07:42.639 --> 00:07:45.350 than customers success, if we're just talk about let's just talk about the customer 118 00:07:45.430 --> 00:07:47.829 part of your organization, right. And then ultimately, as you grow, 119 00:07:48.389 --> 00:07:51.629 things just begin to begin like you protect what is yours, right, and 120 00:07:51.750 --> 00:07:56.430 you want control over what's yours. So they lack a common language. And 121 00:07:56.550 --> 00:07:59.259 so he spent his career trying to deal with this, and only now, 122 00:07:59.420 --> 00:08:01.899 with technology and things where it is today, to I actually feel like this 123 00:08:01.939 --> 00:08:05.899 is a problem we can solve now, right. And the second piece of 124 00:08:05.939 --> 00:08:09.899 that, so that's silos syndrome and that's why these organizations are so dysfunctional and 125 00:08:11.060 --> 00:08:13.649 why we don't get we don't maximize on our customers because we're focused on our 126 00:08:13.689 --> 00:08:18.050 own internals and not our actual customer. But then on the other end, 127 00:08:18.089 --> 00:08:20.449 what's happened to the customer is we've moved from the age of informed customer, 128 00:08:20.529 --> 00:08:24.370 which is what we talked about at every conference. And you know the two 129 00:08:24.449 --> 00:08:28.160 thousands of your customers knows more about your organization by the time they talked. 130 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:31.439 That's not true. Your customers now decided to buy from you or not buy 131 00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:33.519 from you, especially if you're in B tob SASS. So if your Zen 132 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:39.840 Desk, you're already on a short list of clients ticketing systems that someone might 133 00:08:39.919 --> 00:08:41.710 want to buy. In fact, you might have already won. What they're 134 00:08:41.750 --> 00:08:45.470 deciding is how big to spend with you, how much to spend with you, 135 00:08:45.590 --> 00:08:48.629 and so what would they come into the cycle doing is deciding, are 136 00:08:50.029 --> 00:08:52.870 you going to road and to trust with me by exposing me to risks during 137 00:08:52.950 --> 00:08:56.940 this buying experience, that I am not going to buy as big sign as 138 00:08:56.980 --> 00:09:01.340 long as the contract, whatever, whatever might happen within that cycle. And 139 00:09:01.419 --> 00:09:05.740 so that's where you lose that twenty six percent and that's where operations can come 140 00:09:05.779 --> 00:09:07.899 in and fix that twenty six percent. Where there are gaps, the customer 141 00:09:09.019 --> 00:09:11.330 feels that your team internally never actually feels because they go well, this is 142 00:09:11.370 --> 00:09:15.610 just what happens. A BDR hands it off to an eight, right know, 143 00:09:15.970 --> 00:09:18.730 a marketer sends them an email like we've never talked to him before, 144 00:09:18.730 --> 00:09:20.730 it doesn't matter, right, they're like, they're still making a decision about 145 00:09:20.730 --> 00:09:24.519 to buy. We're just nurturing them. But in reality, all of those 146 00:09:24.559 --> 00:09:28.000 gaps, that experience where that customer doesn't feel personalize. Just think about the 147 00:09:28.039 --> 00:09:30.399 be to sea world. If you go to Linkedin, if you go on 148 00:09:30.440 --> 00:09:33.600 to Instagram and you get ads that don't aren't targeted to you, you're like 149 00:09:33.720 --> 00:09:37.159 what the hell am I looking at this for now? Imagine you carry that 150 00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:39.909 over to be tob where you're about to sign over all of your political capital 151 00:09:39.990 --> 00:09:43.309 to buy, you know, a three hundredzero dollar piece of software for your 152 00:09:43.309 --> 00:09:48.029 organization, and they act like you get emails as a hello, insert name 153 00:09:48.070 --> 00:09:50.190 here right, like right, we've already saved those emails, and you're like, 154 00:09:50.350 --> 00:09:54.220 Jesus Christ, yeah, I like that product. I don't like that 155 00:09:54.340 --> 00:09:58.419 experience, I might not buy from those guys or I might like, give 156 00:09:58.500 --> 00:10:01.059 my rep a hard time and then my reps like okay, and then my 157 00:10:01.139 --> 00:10:03.539 rep doesn't present the biggest deal that we have because you just got a hard 158 00:10:03.580 --> 00:10:07.690 time from yea, the prospect. Yeah, so what are some of those 159 00:10:07.730 --> 00:10:13.809 areas I just jotted down? We're introducing risk to deals where we have the 160 00:10:13.929 --> 00:10:18.129 most qualified inbound prospects who have not only decided this is what I'm going to 161 00:10:18.210 --> 00:10:22.600 buy, I but I'm probably eighty five percent likely to buy from this brand. 162 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:28.000 And now we're introducing risk into the process where we're kind of shaving down 163 00:10:28.200 --> 00:10:33.279 that maximum deal size that we could have with our most qualified folks. What 164 00:10:33.480 --> 00:10:35.710 you touched on some of them there, but I bet there are some other 165 00:10:35.870 --> 00:10:39.429 recurring ones where this idea of we're introducing risk for the buyer, which is 166 00:10:39.549 --> 00:10:43.509 therefore translating to less revenue for our organization. What are some of the common 167 00:10:43.590 --> 00:10:48.269 pitfalls you see there, Jason? I mean so one thing I hate is 168 00:10:48.309 --> 00:10:50.500 this term alignment that we use all the time in sales and marketing. Right, 169 00:10:52.419 --> 00:10:56.419 marketing, sales alignment usually means. I want you to reinforce the KPIS 170 00:10:56.500 --> 00:11:00.179 of my silo mean like I want you to. I want marketing. I 171 00:11:00.259 --> 00:11:03.059 want sales to accept my mql so that I can say I handed off x 172 00:11:03.100 --> 00:11:07.690 amount of mqls to someone, and sales the same thing. I want market 173 00:11:07.769 --> 00:11:09.850 and give me better leads, because I think the ones that give me are 174 00:11:09.889 --> 00:11:13.250 bad. Right. So that alignment is all an internal process. So anytime 175 00:11:13.330 --> 00:11:16.450 that you can see very clearly where this where you're protecting the silo, is 176 00:11:16.529 --> 00:11:20.200 a usually a gap where the customers dropped it. You also see these in 177 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:24.639 between stages a lot because customers actually don't buy in the linear process with you, 178 00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:30.200 but you force them through a linear process, and that's okay because I 179 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:33.149 think in order to maximize the value your product, you do need to send 180 00:11:33.190 --> 00:11:37.149 them through the stages and make sure that they get information they're supposed to get 181 00:11:37.149 --> 00:11:41.190 each stage in the sales journey. But what we do is we analyze the 182 00:11:41.309 --> 00:11:46.509 sales pipeline and we measured against for key metrics, and so this is the 183 00:11:46.629 --> 00:11:50.820 process that we've been a called three VC, and any organization can do this. 184 00:11:50.139 --> 00:11:52.659 It's best if you have access to something like sales force, where you 185 00:11:52.700 --> 00:11:58.740 can track track these things more easily. We have a tool that we're going 186 00:11:58.740 --> 00:12:01.179 to be coming out within the market place in the next year for doing this, 187 00:12:01.259 --> 00:12:01.929 but we do this for all of our customers with a tool that they 188 00:12:01.929 --> 00:12:07.049 can access today. And three VC is we measured the volume, so the 189 00:12:07.129 --> 00:12:11.129 amount of opportunities that go through a pipeline through your customer journey, the value 190 00:12:11.250 --> 00:12:15.720 of those opportunities and the velocity of those opportunities. And then finally to see 191 00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:20.279 is the conversion and what we do is we track that against yourself and we 192 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:24.000 flag areas where you're read and where you're red. Are the gaps that in 193 00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:26.720 your process? There, there the gaps in your process. And so then 194 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:30.269 we go from an operational standpoint, not from a sales rep by sales rep 195 00:12:30.509 --> 00:12:33.389 we're not coaches, right, we are operators. So we look from an 196 00:12:33.389 --> 00:12:37.389 operational standpoint of how can we build scalable solutions in these areas where we're read, 197 00:12:37.389 --> 00:12:39.350 because if we can pick up two conversion points between stage one and Stage 198 00:12:39.429 --> 00:12:43.789 two, which usually turns out in the old world to be a marketing operations 199 00:12:43.870 --> 00:12:48.379 problem, then we can overall effect our pipeline by x, right, and 200 00:12:48.500 --> 00:12:52.700 so that's the process that we use to make it more scientific in order to 201 00:12:54.179 --> 00:13:00.649 find these gaps, but they always tend to hide in between human politics. 202 00:13:00.929 --> 00:13:03.490 Is what I found, right in between the handoff points, in between well, 203 00:13:03.529 --> 00:13:07.769 this is whose responsibility is this customer? And it's like everyone's trying to 204 00:13:07.769 --> 00:13:09.330 play this game of hot potato to get rid of their customer as fast as 205 00:13:09.409 --> 00:13:13.279 possible, where in reality it should be a yes and situation where we're adding 206 00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:16.879 people to it. And I know people talk about this add not as yum 207 00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:20.799 and it sounds like such a bit to people, but the reality is even 208 00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:24.399 the organizations that say their customer centric and then you ask them, okay, 209 00:13:24.840 --> 00:13:28.549 who's responsibilities this customer right now, at this point, they're very quick to 210 00:13:28.590 --> 00:13:31.750 say, Oh, that sales, oh that's marketing, Oh that's us now, 211 00:13:31.230 --> 00:13:35.710 Oh that's James's right, just some random person on their team. And 212 00:13:35.990 --> 00:13:41.700 I find that most organizations are not customer buying centric. They might be customer 213 00:13:41.820 --> 00:13:45.620 service CENTRIC, but they're not customer experience centric. They're not they're not about 214 00:13:45.620 --> 00:13:50.179 trying to deliver as the consistent experience to their customer. You said the those 215 00:13:50.259 --> 00:13:54.419 four key mant tricks are volume. So how how many opportunities are flowing through 216 00:13:54.419 --> 00:14:00.169 your pipeline at once the value of each opportunity, the velocity and then the 217 00:14:00.690 --> 00:14:05.889 conversion and conversion is kind of multilayered overall conversion as well as converts stage in 218 00:14:05.970 --> 00:14:09.759 your stages right, correct. What do you think? Is there one that 219 00:14:09.879 --> 00:14:13.039 you that you kind of start with, or do you set up this framework 220 00:14:13.080 --> 00:14:18.000 with customers so that they can get a Thirtyzero foot view of these four key 221 00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:22.159 metrics and then look for the red and then go address wherever the red is 222 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:24.750 first? Is that kind of the step by step process your sons and customers 223 00:14:24.789 --> 00:14:28.350 to do themselves or with you guys? Yeah, yeah, so customers typically 224 00:14:28.350 --> 00:14:33.350 come to us because we're consultancy that specializes in Sass. So we do that, 225 00:14:33.549 --> 00:14:35.629 that three VC method for our customers, but we also didn't do it 226 00:14:35.669 --> 00:14:39.179 between customers. So people come to us for because we have we operate the 227 00:14:39.220 --> 00:14:45.299 largest single operational source of information around these SASS companies and silk and valley. 228 00:14:45.580 --> 00:14:50.700 So our customers are very large enterprise grade customers who we've been with free years 229 00:14:50.860 --> 00:14:54.769 and we know every operational project they've done to get to where they've gotten and 230 00:14:54.889 --> 00:14:56.690 so we can compare one SASS company to another. SASS company. So that's 231 00:14:56.690 --> 00:15:00.370 one of the benefits of working with go nimbly as that. We built this 232 00:15:00.450 --> 00:15:03.169 benchmarking system. So we know, Oh, twilio, at this inflection point 233 00:15:03.210 --> 00:15:07.759 when they were going to IPO, did XYZ. Here's where their stats were. 234 00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:11.440 Here are you? Here's yours page, your duty. What could we 235 00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:15.120 do to getting you better? Right, so we both measure them internally against 236 00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:18.159 themselves and externally against a benchmark that we've created. So that's one of the 237 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:20.399 values that we provide. Typically, people come to work with us because they 238 00:15:20.429 --> 00:15:26.950 have a pain in their sales marketing customer success. It usually is software driven. 239 00:15:26.950 --> 00:15:28.549 Usually they think they have a sales force problem or they have a, 240 00:15:28.669 --> 00:15:31.950 you know, El Core Marquetto problem or or something like that. Or, 241 00:15:33.070 --> 00:15:35.139 you know, sales tools are marketing tools centric. A lot of people don't 242 00:15:35.139 --> 00:15:39.340 come to us with customer success problems when they first come to us, but 243 00:15:39.419 --> 00:15:43.340 we usually uncover a bunch of customer success issues that would improve their overall business, 244 00:15:43.659 --> 00:15:46.179 and so we usually get into that part of their business. But we 245 00:15:46.259 --> 00:15:50.289 are subscription company, so they're signing up to our services sort of like an 246 00:15:50.289 --> 00:15:52.370 ad firm, right, and it's our job at that point to watch over 247 00:15:52.450 --> 00:15:56.490 their revenue and guide them to do the do the most impactful work they could 248 00:15:56.490 --> 00:16:00.450 be doing. So they still might be doing the day to day operation work, 249 00:16:00.529 --> 00:16:03.690 sales operations work, just like they ever ever have, but we look 250 00:16:03.730 --> 00:16:10.440 for those cross functional big ticket projects, processes that are going to revolutionize that 251 00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:14.000 business and put them to better impact, and that usually means that we have 252 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:18.320 to do something that touches all three of those key areas, something like rolling 253 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:22.909 out an ABM program or something like, you know, personalized outreach, things 254 00:16:22.990 --> 00:16:27.149 like that that really require your sales up to become more marketing focus, your 255 00:16:27.230 --> 00:16:30.230 market become more sales focused, so on and so us, those are the 256 00:16:30.269 --> 00:16:33.019 things that we're seeing that we work on a lot to have the most impact 257 00:16:33.580 --> 00:16:37.980 when it comes to that customer buying experience right because it's treating that customer personally, 258 00:16:38.580 --> 00:16:41.299 treating them like they're human being, which is what they want, and 259 00:16:41.500 --> 00:16:45.100 so those are the things we kind of focus on. Yes, so you 260 00:16:45.179 --> 00:16:48.850 said something interesting there, Jason. That kind of loops me back to one 261 00:16:48.850 --> 00:16:52.970 of the questions I posed earlier. You mentioned that people come to you thinking 262 00:16:52.049 --> 00:16:56.409 that they have a a software problem or an operations problem, but it's it's 263 00:16:56.570 --> 00:17:03.360 really a somewhat more of an operations problem in the way that that people are 264 00:17:03.399 --> 00:17:07.200 addressing the problem. It's not that they need they need new software, it's 265 00:17:07.240 --> 00:17:10.200 that they need to change their thinking in their approach, and that might lead 266 00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:12.599 to a change in the way they use sales for so they use Marquetto but 267 00:17:12.759 --> 00:17:18.109 it's it's not a software problem. It might be a software application problem and 268 00:17:18.230 --> 00:17:22.789 in the way that you apply it's got to be informed by your approach. 269 00:17:22.549 --> 00:17:26.630 And so to go back to the way we kicked off this this conversation talking 270 00:17:26.670 --> 00:17:30.980 about okay, we know we have some pain in the entire customer experience. 271 00:17:32.579 --> 00:17:36.980 Where the heck do we start? Where do we start to pull the lever 272 00:17:37.140 --> 00:17:41.019 to get the most impact? Where do you see people kind of find that 273 00:17:41.220 --> 00:17:45.930 first lever to start to work on it? Yeah, there's two places that 274 00:17:45.769 --> 00:17:48.930 we tend to see. So a lot of times they come to us with 275 00:17:48.970 --> 00:17:52.809 a project and when we match that against VC, their intuition is correct. 276 00:17:52.849 --> 00:17:56.450 So I like to talk about there's these three tiers of operations. There is 277 00:17:56.730 --> 00:18:00.200 intuition based like operations. That's when people just come to you and say things 278 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:03.680 and you just do what they say because you believe the people around you, 279 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:07.240 and that's not a terrible place to be. That's how most SASS companies start, 280 00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:08.240 when you're in a wee work with fifty people or something like that, 281 00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:12.309 and then you move into this operational face within your organization, which I call 282 00:18:12.390 --> 00:18:18.109 experience based. You hire the best operator you can hire, or cro or 283 00:18:18.150 --> 00:18:19.309 somebody, and they have all this experience with, say, Linkedin as a 284 00:18:19.309 --> 00:18:22.509 company, and then they come to your company and they bring all that experience 285 00:18:22.549 --> 00:18:25.750 with them and suddenly you're implementing all these processes, not because people are saying 286 00:18:25.750 --> 00:18:29.460 it in the field, but because someone has the experience and saying this is 287 00:18:29.579 --> 00:18:32.779 what we should do. And then you have the last stage of operations, 288 00:18:32.859 --> 00:18:34.619 which is, I think, really the holy Grail, and that's where we 289 00:18:34.660 --> 00:18:37.819 try to get customers to which is you're listening to your customer and so you're 290 00:18:37.819 --> 00:18:42.529 basing your operational decisions on the customer experience right. And so most organizations hovered 291 00:18:42.569 --> 00:18:48.730 between intuition based and experiential based. Does not mean that the thing the experiential 292 00:18:48.769 --> 00:18:53.730 based thing creates, or the intuition based operations team creates, isn't also the 293 00:18:53.809 --> 00:18:59.160 same pain that exists if you listen to your customer. It just so happens 294 00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:03.319 to be there's more danger and listening to those things then validating against the customer 295 00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:04.119 right, and so that's what three VC allows you to do. Is, 296 00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:07.680 Oh, we are suffering here, we are having a drop off from stage 297 00:19:07.720 --> 00:19:11.509 one to stage too. So our customer is definitely experiencing something here. So 298 00:19:11.710 --> 00:19:15.190 all of these ideas that we have in this bucket are now valid tactics that 299 00:19:15.269 --> 00:19:18.950 we could maybe try or think about trying, and so I want to be 300 00:19:18.069 --> 00:19:22.190 clear that businesses know themselves and they know where their pains are. Most of 301 00:19:22.190 --> 00:19:26.900 the time, what they're incorrect on is the descriptive tactic to change that thing, 302 00:19:27.539 --> 00:19:32.500 because mostly they're worrying about protecting their silo. They're not worrying about breaking 303 00:19:32.539 --> 00:19:34.619 down their silo and making something more holistic. So what you want to look 304 00:19:34.619 --> 00:19:38.490 for is the tactics that can cross all of the silos and basically build a 305 00:19:38.529 --> 00:19:41.609 bridge or platform across all of those and I think that's the job of the 306 00:19:41.690 --> 00:19:47.210 revenue operators to understand, okay, does this tactic touch every element and bring 307 00:19:47.250 --> 00:19:51.170 more people into the process and more people into the customer experience so that we 308 00:19:51.210 --> 00:19:55.400 all feel a sense of ownership so that has a more likely chance of being 309 00:19:55.440 --> 00:20:00.319 successful and sticking within our organization and actually impacting our numbers. So I wanted 310 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:03.680 to to stay that because I don't think that most operate like businesses are run 311 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:07.430 right. Operations. Teams happen and they're not. There's really smart sales operators 312 00:20:07.470 --> 00:20:11.950 as really smart marketing operators, but the value of this process is that it 313 00:20:11.150 --> 00:20:15.630 is actually makes more sticky change and actually improves things. So the area that 314 00:20:15.670 --> 00:20:19.109 I would tell people to look at first is always going to be your Bedr 315 00:20:19.549 --> 00:20:22.740 to sell, a e handoff process. If you're a velocity based business, 316 00:20:23.180 --> 00:20:27.619 you're going to be dropping a ton there. And then also in marketing, 317 00:20:29.380 --> 00:20:33.900 marketing attribution, M qls, I would say that you need to move your 318 00:20:33.940 --> 00:20:40.769 market team as fast as possible to have owning a revenue number and changing getting 319 00:20:40.769 --> 00:20:45.130 rid of the vanity match or changing the vanity metrics of number of mpls served. 320 00:20:45.609 --> 00:20:48.210 Yeah, I have a question there because that seems to be a pretty 321 00:20:48.210 --> 00:20:52.119 hot topic and I've heard some marketers push back on that and say, well, 322 00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:56.160 yes, we are looking at revenue, but mql historically has been a 323 00:20:56.240 --> 00:21:03.839 leading indicator to revenue. What's your response to that pushback on marketing should be 324 00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:07.430 measured on revenue and we should more or less ditch the mql as a vanity 325 00:21:07.509 --> 00:21:11.670 metric. Yeah, so, go nimbly. Does these exercises where we disc 326 00:21:11.710 --> 00:21:17.430 will refine for you what we call, I guess, that impact leading metric, 327 00:21:17.509 --> 00:21:18.859 or KPI, you know if you want to use that term. In 328 00:21:18.940 --> 00:21:23.980 a vandy metric, a vanity metric. For some organizations, m ql as 329 00:21:25.220 --> 00:21:32.140 described would be a lean indicator to actual revenue impact change. Right, because 330 00:21:32.140 --> 00:21:34.609 it remember, the whole goal is to change that red zone, to change 331 00:21:34.650 --> 00:21:38.730 our conversion or value that we carry in each of those realms that we can 332 00:21:38.730 --> 00:21:42.450 actually get more revenue off the extame existing customers. Right. Because, again, 333 00:21:42.490 --> 00:21:45.130 three VC kind of hells pups that the only time we're working on getting 334 00:21:45.130 --> 00:21:48.720 more leads is if we want more volume, if our volume is read right. 335 00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:56.599 So yeah, so, ultimately mql is usually a stagegate people use to 336 00:21:56.039 --> 00:22:00.880 filter. And if someone said, Oh, I want more leads in your 337 00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:03.710 organization, if if your VP of sales came to and said Hey, marketing 338 00:22:03.750 --> 00:22:07.910 team, I want more leads and your answer was Ah, okay, cool, 339 00:22:07.950 --> 00:22:10.910 we'll just adjust our definition of mql, then you have a vanity mql 340 00:22:11.109 --> 00:22:17.339 because you are just saying it's arbitrary. We just set this because these are 341 00:22:17.339 --> 00:22:21.539 the ones that we think are most likely to close. But now that you 342 00:22:21.579 --> 00:22:23.660 want more, will just give you more? If sales says we need more 343 00:22:23.700 --> 00:22:26.420 leads, and you think to yourself, even if you don't say it, 344 00:22:26.619 --> 00:22:30.329 if you think to yourself, well, we could kind of change, we 345 00:22:30.450 --> 00:22:33.730 could adjust this qualifier. That's the way to get them more leads than that 346 00:22:34.009 --> 00:22:37.809 is probably you're failing that litmus test, that your mql is not a leading 347 00:22:37.890 --> 00:22:41.569 indicator. It's more of a vanity metric. Right, right. It's a 348 00:22:41.650 --> 00:22:44.089 thing that you're going to hold up to sales when they don't clip, when 349 00:22:44.089 --> 00:22:45.599 they don't have their quote, and you're going to go, well, I 350 00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:48.400 gave you all the ones that match that. As soon as you just justifying 351 00:22:48.599 --> 00:22:52.920 the decisionmaking when you don't hit your revenue number, you know everything about your 352 00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:56.480 organization, or that part of your organization is a vanity metric that's just there 353 00:22:56.559 --> 00:23:00.269 to protect your silo. And I know that's controversial, I know that makes 354 00:23:00.269 --> 00:23:02.390 people are feel uncomfortable and I know people say, well, I need to 355 00:23:02.470 --> 00:23:07.589 justify XYZ. But ultimately marketing has more power than ever before with sales at 356 00:23:07.670 --> 00:23:10.829 with marketing attribution. People believe in marketing more than ever. And one of 357 00:23:10.829 --> 00:23:11.980 the things that we're trying to do, and that I really believe in because 358 00:23:11.980 --> 00:23:17.779 my background is in marketing and advertising, is that I'm doing the same thing 359 00:23:17.819 --> 00:23:21.099 for operators by using are VC metric. We're not hiring more sales reps, 360 00:23:21.099 --> 00:23:23.660 we're not putting more money into into acquisition cost what we're doing is being smarter 361 00:23:23.660 --> 00:23:26.690 about where we operate and spend our time. I'm doing the same thing right 362 00:23:26.730 --> 00:23:32.849 now for operations that marketing went through ten years ago, right where I'm saying, 363 00:23:33.130 --> 00:23:34.609 Hey, look, this team that you thought of it as a support 364 00:23:34.650 --> 00:23:37.289 class. That's the same way as you thought as marketing ten years ago as 365 00:23:37.369 --> 00:23:42.000 arts and crafts. They're actually contributing revenue at a at a tremendous amount, 366 00:23:42.319 --> 00:23:45.880 and you've been giving all that credit to sales and marketing instead of putting that 367 00:23:47.000 --> 00:23:49.599 money into the operations team. That could you could be leveraging and getting more 368 00:23:49.640 --> 00:23:53.759 out than hiring three more beauty ours, because that's typically how Sass thinks they 369 00:23:53.799 --> 00:23:56.069 need to grow. Right as we have to hire more bdrs, we need 370 00:23:56.069 --> 00:23:59.509 you to hire more ee's, and so on and so thinking, and everything 371 00:23:59.509 --> 00:24:02.869 else is to trickle down effect. Does your approach to this, Jason, 372 00:24:02.869 --> 00:24:07.789 lead you to kind of stack rank these four metrics as as some being more 373 00:24:07.869 --> 00:24:12.700 important or a higher priority than others, like basically your conversation about mql's? 374 00:24:14.180 --> 00:24:18.140 Does that lead you to say that, you know, value per deal and 375 00:24:18.220 --> 00:24:22.500 velocity and maybe conversions as well, are more important than the volume number, 376 00:24:22.500 --> 00:24:27.650 because volume has kind of always been the that Catchall, you know, number 377 00:24:27.730 --> 00:24:33.609 one KPI. So does does volume become less important than the other three in 378 00:24:33.730 --> 00:24:37.049 the framework that you guys advise on? Volume is interesting because volume only is 379 00:24:37.130 --> 00:24:41.079 actually important, because your volume is going to be your volume. So we 380 00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:42.759 use three DC against you, we're going to say, and we usually use 381 00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:45.559 it for your trailing six months when we're measuring you against yourself. So let's 382 00:24:45.559 --> 00:24:49.279 say in June everyone got hit hard with a covid so everyone's volume is down 383 00:24:49.480 --> 00:24:53.150 right now. So in all of our metrics across all our customers, if 384 00:24:53.230 --> 00:24:56.470 you did an individual look at any of our customers, the volume and all 385 00:24:56.509 --> 00:25:00.670 of their stages would be read becausese. It's significantly, by thirty to forty 386 00:25:00.710 --> 00:25:04.029 percent less than it was previously. So we could, as an organization, 387 00:25:04.069 --> 00:25:07.980 say we're going to focus on volume. Well, because we're go nimbly, 388 00:25:07.059 --> 00:25:10.819 we can look across all of our benchmarks and go, actually, we're green. 389 00:25:11.299 --> 00:25:15.059 Everyone's volume is hit by this thirty or forty percent, and so let's 390 00:25:15.099 --> 00:25:18.859 not spend our time working on volume because it's not actually an operational problem, 391 00:25:18.900 --> 00:25:23.329 it's a economics problem that we have right now, right, and so let's 392 00:25:23.329 --> 00:25:26.849 move on to something that we can actually scale and that is valuable to the 393 00:25:26.890 --> 00:25:30.849 organization twenty four months from now, not two months from now. Now. 394 00:25:30.930 --> 00:25:33.450 Of course, if you were really hemorrhaging and you need to try to get 395 00:25:33.450 --> 00:25:36.920 more volume, you can come volume tactics. At that point I feel like 396 00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:42.400 you're doing marketing hacks or sales hacks and not necessarily scalable operational decisionmaking. And 397 00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:45.559 so volume is one of those interesting ones that really matter when you compare it 398 00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:49.950 to other SASS companies, but doesn't matter when you're read in a particular area 399 00:25:49.990 --> 00:25:52.430 for yourself, because that might just be the volume that you create based on 400 00:25:52.470 --> 00:25:56.670 the noise you can get in, you know, in your environment. You 401 00:25:56.750 --> 00:26:00.869 realize I didn't talk about any standard SASS metrics like CAC or costs. Back 402 00:26:00.069 --> 00:26:03.299 I mentioned those things, but they're not important to revenue operations because in my 403 00:26:03.420 --> 00:26:07.740 world there are revenue operations and their business operations, and business operations are the 404 00:26:07.859 --> 00:26:11.059 other side of the will. That works with your development team, your product 405 00:26:11.099 --> 00:26:15.420 marketers and everything else, and their job is to measure your either their their 406 00:26:15.500 --> 00:26:21.609 nor star is growth or margin, depending if you're already a profitable business or 407 00:26:21.650 --> 00:26:23.609 not, and so they're the ones that are worried about all those kind of 408 00:26:23.609 --> 00:26:29.410 microeconomics. All revenue operations is worried about is running a world class revenue team 409 00:26:29.690 --> 00:26:33.319 that can sell shit and that sells it well and gives a great customers experience. 410 00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:36.559 And then the ceosits between. That's too fly wills, because now you 411 00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:40.079 have a go to market team that's focused on just increasing revenue, that sales 412 00:26:40.119 --> 00:26:42.240 marking, customers, success and revenue operations in one wheel, and then you 413 00:26:42.359 --> 00:26:45.000 have the other wheel, which is, you know, your product, your 414 00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:49.309 development your business operations, all focused on growth or the SASS part of your 415 00:26:49.390 --> 00:26:52.829 product, and then those two things run independently, and so we don't get 416 00:26:52.829 --> 00:26:56.670 a lot of cross functionality where people get confused about northstar metrics, right, 417 00:26:56.750 --> 00:27:00.309 because I think any revenue go to market team. That's where it's salt. 418 00:27:00.390 --> 00:27:03.700 Can sell any product and I think any product team could build an awesome product. 419 00:27:03.940 --> 00:27:07.059 I don't think those two worlds have much to do with each other besides 420 00:27:07.140 --> 00:27:11.019 having some key people who kind of try to align those two organizations. Product 421 00:27:11.059 --> 00:27:12.700 marketers as an example, who's someone who goes back and forth, and the 422 00:27:12.779 --> 00:27:17.250 CEO is someone who goes back and forth. But ultimately that's kind of where 423 00:27:17.250 --> 00:27:18.730 I see that. And Yeah, so I think conversion is sort of the 424 00:27:18.769 --> 00:27:22.170 one that we overlay against everything. Right. So I find that the vis 425 00:27:22.849 --> 00:27:27.329 volume, velocity and value dictate tactic and then we can see the results the 426 00:27:27.369 --> 00:27:33.039 quickest in conversion. Right. So tell okay, we're we're read in value. 427 00:27:33.160 --> 00:27:37.079 So we want to increase the value. Specifically want to increase the value. 428 00:27:37.519 --> 00:27:40.720 We want to try and raise it by ten percent. What can we 429 00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:42.279 do to get this ten percent? That would be the operational tactic and that 430 00:27:42.319 --> 00:27:48.509 would probably be some operational process tactics around getting better data, better qualification, 431 00:27:48.670 --> 00:27:51.789 better blah blah, Blah Blah Blah to increase the value of each of our 432 00:27:51.829 --> 00:27:56.750 opportunities. We would see that start to emerge first in stage to stage conversions, 433 00:27:56.990 --> 00:27:59.660 right, because that's kind of the thing where, okay, were now 434 00:27:59.700 --> 00:28:02.900 we have these more value, these more valuable opportunities, and check that tactic 435 00:28:03.099 --> 00:28:06.579 is working. Like we're talking to people who can spend more money with us, 436 00:28:06.579 --> 00:28:10.940 based on our intent data, based on our phrmographics, all this stuff, 437 00:28:11.339 --> 00:28:14.730 and we're getting them into the sales process, but we don't know how 438 00:28:14.730 --> 00:28:18.289 to close them. So our conversions going down right, so we get them 439 00:28:18.410 --> 00:28:22.009 in their higher value so it looks like we've improved that, but they're not 440 00:28:22.049 --> 00:28:25.410 moving past stage to because our sales reps actually don't know how to talk to 441 00:28:25.569 --> 00:28:29.799 these interprase great credit customers, right, and so that's where you're those two 442 00:28:29.799 --> 00:28:32.079 kind of things play off each other, sort of a lever where you can 443 00:28:32.079 --> 00:28:33.799 say, okay, here's the tactic and we take every tact that we do 444 00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:37.799 and we measure it for three to six months in the three VC model and 445 00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:41.359 say, Oh, it has a change. Now. Businesses are crazy, 446 00:28:41.509 --> 00:28:44.309 and I don't feel bad about saying this, even though we charge a lot 447 00:28:44.349 --> 00:28:48.869 of money for our subscription service. It is not causation. You know, 448 00:28:48.109 --> 00:28:52.950 it's correlation. It's not a science yet, right, it's our best guest, 449 00:28:52.309 --> 00:28:56.099 but it's more focus than any other method of operations of running a business. 450 00:28:56.420 --> 00:29:02.380 So yeah, sometimes we think we're doing a volume or value tactic and 451 00:29:02.460 --> 00:29:07.660 suddenly we see that we increase conversion dramatically because in that process we touched her, 452 00:29:07.660 --> 00:29:11.289 we had a domino effect in some other area. That's great. And 453 00:29:11.369 --> 00:29:14.730 sometimes you think you do one thing and nothing really happens with that, and 454 00:29:14.809 --> 00:29:18.769 that's just the nature of operations. But at least we are making hypothesis against 455 00:29:18.809 --> 00:29:21.049 what we want to do. It's the same thing again. This is why 456 00:29:21.049 --> 00:29:22.849 it's so important for markers understand it's the same thing. When you do marketing 457 00:29:22.849 --> 00:29:26.960 attribution. You're not saying that this source works, they're saying this source is 458 00:29:26.039 --> 00:29:30.160 our best opportunity at working. Yeah, yeah, I talked to a lot 459 00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:33.519 of marketers that say attribution is one of their their biggest struggles right now to 460 00:29:33.960 --> 00:29:37.910 try and answer, because it's not as clear cut all the time as as 461 00:29:38.029 --> 00:29:41.789 we'd like to think, as we've grown up in in digital marketing. So, 462 00:29:42.029 --> 00:29:45.789 Jason, I love this framework, very clear for key metrics for your 463 00:29:45.829 --> 00:29:52.589 go to market team to think about structure, a dashboard around volume, value, 464 00:29:52.859 --> 00:29:56.940 velocity and conversion. You also talked about the evolution of the way that 465 00:29:57.059 --> 00:30:03.339 you think about your revenue operations and the way that you make decisions based on 466 00:30:03.700 --> 00:30:06.779 what what to tackle and what's going to have the most impact and what's going 467 00:30:06.779 --> 00:30:10.569 to have actually not even the most impact but the most positive impact, because 468 00:30:10.569 --> 00:30:12.730 we can make changes that actually have a negative impact. It doesn't mean that 469 00:30:12.849 --> 00:30:15.890 just because we change things that it is for the better. And you talked 470 00:30:15.890 --> 00:30:23.680 about kind of the three tiers their intuition, experience and customer basically customer feedback 471 00:30:25.279 --> 00:30:30.839 driving those decisions based on operational changes, and they'll be more influenced by intuition 472 00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:36.109 and experience but led by customer feedback. If anybody listening to this, Jason, 473 00:30:36.670 --> 00:30:41.549 is going to take one thing away from this episode to to implement tomorrow, 474 00:30:41.029 --> 00:30:44.750 what would you like that to be? What would you encourage folks to 475 00:30:45.029 --> 00:30:48.750 start with tomorrow when it comes to making their revenue operations team more efficient, 476 00:30:48.789 --> 00:30:53.140 whether that is a new revops team or they've got multiple go to market operations 477 00:30:53.180 --> 00:30:56.619 teams today. So this is going to be something that we haven't talked about 478 00:30:56.619 --> 00:30:59.740 at all and I'll try to keep a brief but I'm writing a book right 479 00:30:59.779 --> 00:31:03.740 now with with one of my business partners called transform that it's about how to 480 00:31:03.779 --> 00:31:08.930 transform your organization into a revenue operations team. And what's interesting about that is 481 00:31:10.410 --> 00:31:14.849 like forty percent of Sass companies are thinking about revenue operations, especially if you're 482 00:31:14.849 --> 00:31:18.289 an operator. Operators are thinking about like seventy five percent because they see that 483 00:31:18.329 --> 00:31:21.079 there's a better way to do it and they're tired of sort of being second 484 00:31:21.160 --> 00:31:25.880 class citizens within their organization and they want some form of accountability and ownership and 485 00:31:25.920 --> 00:31:29.599 autonomy within their organization. And they often come to me and go well, 486 00:31:29.640 --> 00:31:32.640 how do I what's the first step to get that? What? I can't 487 00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:36.069 convince my team to unify all the operations team. I'm just an operator. 488 00:31:36.430 --> 00:31:40.269 How do I actually start having a revenue operation in mindset when my company is 489 00:31:40.349 --> 00:31:42.309 not yet at that place? Because I want to one day work of the 490 00:31:42.349 --> 00:31:45.390 company who has a revenue operations team, but I think I need some skills 491 00:31:45.430 --> 00:31:48.779 in order to get there first. Right. Maybe they want to leave, 492 00:31:48.900 --> 00:31:52.339 maybe they are a square and they want to go to another organization that does 493 00:31:52.380 --> 00:31:57.299 believe in revenue operations and doesn't had has a non silod approach. Squares also 494 00:31:57.339 --> 00:32:00.019 going through a big revenue operations to transformation, so that's why I'm mentioning this. 495 00:32:00.220 --> 00:32:02.769 They used to be silent all over the place and they're going to more 496 00:32:02.769 --> 00:32:07.130 unified operations approach. The first thing I would tell you to do that you 497 00:32:07.210 --> 00:32:09.170 can implement yourself is this thing called action meetings, and it's a way of 498 00:32:09.690 --> 00:32:15.690 transforming your meetings to being action oriented, and so they're not status updates. 499 00:32:15.720 --> 00:32:19.519 I find the operators often in meetings where they're just giving status updates. And 500 00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:23.079 when you just give updates you are saying I work on behalf of and support 501 00:32:23.480 --> 00:32:28.400 these other parts of the organization. You're not talking about what you're really doing. 502 00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:31.029 And so action means are a very specific format that people can look up, 503 00:32:31.509 --> 00:32:36.470 but what they really are is people coming together from different elements in the 504 00:32:36.470 --> 00:32:39.069 business who are passionate about those other elements of the business and you build an 505 00:32:39.069 --> 00:32:43.710 agenda together of action based items. So it's not about updates. There's a 506 00:32:43.750 --> 00:32:45.220 part in it where you give updates for the projects you're working on, but 507 00:32:45.299 --> 00:32:52.140 ultimately it's action based. So that really transforms your thinking, because what happens 508 00:32:52.259 --> 00:32:54.660 is people are talking about the things they need action for him and the things 509 00:32:54.660 --> 00:33:00.049 that are the getting unstuck, and it refocuses everyone in the team, especially 510 00:33:00.049 --> 00:33:01.529 if you're an operator who can get a sales and marketing person in a room 511 00:33:01.529 --> 00:33:05.930 with you and gets people focus on the tactics and the actions, and so 512 00:33:06.450 --> 00:33:09.210 automatically they see you sort of game offy and change what their motivation is. 513 00:33:09.609 --> 00:33:13.720 So no longer are they thinking about how to protect their silo. Instead they're 514 00:33:13.720 --> 00:33:16.200 thinking about how do we get this action done, and that is a very 515 00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:21.319 solid way of changing that. And then the second thing I will say is 516 00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:25.559 a tactic that I taught to Sean Lane, who has an operations podcast for 517 00:33:25.599 --> 00:33:30.789 drift, which drift is a someone that we work with pretty closely, and 518 00:33:30.069 --> 00:33:34.910 it's this core concept that you can ask people in your organization when they ask 519 00:33:34.990 --> 00:33:38.069 you something, which is okay, how important is this thing that you're telling 520 00:33:38.109 --> 00:33:40.980 me, especially if you're the intuition basing, you're trying to up level yourself, 521 00:33:42.180 --> 00:33:44.579 and then what are you willing to sacrifice to get it? Because I 522 00:33:44.740 --> 00:33:47.380 find that the quickest way to break down silos is not to tell people no, 523 00:33:47.539 --> 00:33:51.140 no, no, we don't need this because we're just the customer buying 524 00:33:51.220 --> 00:33:53.619 centric. They don't get that it's to say what are you willing to sacrifice, 525 00:33:53.700 --> 00:33:58.130 and then you'll kind of see from people's perspective is that they're telling you 526 00:33:58.329 --> 00:34:01.210 things and they're not really willing to sacrifice anything. And at tactic that would 527 00:34:01.210 --> 00:34:05.809 also recommend for people that's very tactical is, I believe, that every operations 528 00:34:05.849 --> 00:34:08.130 team should have a road map, just like a product team, and so 529 00:34:08.289 --> 00:34:12.000 then it becomes very concrete when you say, here's the stuff that's going on, 530 00:34:12.159 --> 00:34:15.480 what should we sacrifice? And then they'll see, because everything you say 531 00:34:15.559 --> 00:34:19.280 yes to you're saying no to something else, and to visually see this is 532 00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:22.440 what's on the road map, this is what's happening next. We don't have 533 00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:24.829 a room on the road map for this. Until you know six months out, 534 00:34:25.190 --> 00:34:28.829 will hold on a sec I think that that's more important. We need 535 00:34:28.869 --> 00:34:31.110 to move that up, but just that practice of visualizing it like a product 536 00:34:31.110 --> 00:34:35.630 team would helps you to set those priorities. Most people that are talking to 537 00:34:35.710 --> 00:34:37.510 as an operator just want to be acknowledged right. They just want to be 538 00:34:37.550 --> 00:34:40.739 a knowledge at their feeling pain internally, and your job is, I think, 539 00:34:40.940 --> 00:34:45.619 to be as an operator to have the ten foot view, where you're 540 00:34:45.699 --> 00:34:49.380 sitting in a room with a sales rep and then know you have the hundred 541 00:34:49.380 --> 00:34:52.739 foot view, which is this is just one piece of information and feedback, 542 00:34:52.739 --> 00:34:55.929 the same way that a product team here's feedback from their customers and still has 543 00:34:57.010 --> 00:35:00.929 to move forward on their priorities as a product team. Operators are very bad 544 00:35:00.969 --> 00:35:02.889 at that muscle. We're very quick to go, Oh, I know how 545 00:35:02.929 --> 00:35:08.480 to alleviate your pain, and that actually leads organizations to bad processes and blow 546 00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:14.239 and inst it just being unsuccessful overall delivering a solid customer experience. Yeah, 547 00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:16.880 and so those are the really good advice. Not Not need your king based 548 00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:21.909 on every every request. How do we how do we solve for this small 549 00:35:22.030 --> 00:35:24.829 pain, but take that and and then kind of assimilate that with all of 550 00:35:24.949 --> 00:35:30.510 the feedback we're getting at the hundred and Thirtyzero foot level to then make decisions. 551 00:35:30.789 --> 00:35:34.630 I mean it's just kind of you know, as we go back personally 552 00:35:34.670 --> 00:35:38.739 and we think about personal productivity, what is urgent and not important versus what 553 00:35:38.900 --> 00:35:43.739 is important and not urgent. It allows you to kind of fit that into 554 00:35:43.780 --> 00:35:46.860 that that framework. If people are familiar there jason, this has been fantastic. 555 00:35:46.900 --> 00:35:51.690 I love the the metrics that you guys are advising folks to give a 556 00:35:51.849 --> 00:35:57.170 very clear picture of where to focus to make their revenue operations more efficient. 557 00:35:57.489 --> 00:36:01.250 You guys have seen great success, obviously helping people get twenty six percent more 558 00:36:01.369 --> 00:36:06.280 revenue per customer with this model. If people have questions, they want to 559 00:36:06.440 --> 00:36:08.559 follow up with you, they want to stay connected with you in the team 560 00:36:08.599 --> 00:36:12.000 at go nimbly. What's the best way for them to do that? Well, 561 00:36:12.119 --> 00:36:15.719 every every person in operations should be reading our blog. We post very 562 00:36:15.800 --> 00:36:19.309 detailed, tactical, real things that you can do. It's our way of 563 00:36:19.349 --> 00:36:22.710 giving back to the revenue operations community. It's not a bunch of selling go 564 00:36:22.789 --> 00:36:24.630 nimbly. So you should go there if you want information. It's about how 565 00:36:24.670 --> 00:36:29.110 to implement these tactics within your own business. And then you can follow me 566 00:36:29.190 --> 00:36:31.349 on Linkedin. I'm doing video series. We have a youtube channel where I 567 00:36:31.469 --> 00:36:36.059 walk through these processes and talk about them and then, you know, just 568 00:36:36.300 --> 00:36:37.900 keep an eye out because it do a lot of conferences and things like that 569 00:36:37.980 --> 00:36:42.460 and I love to go deep with these businesses. You can reach out to 570 00:36:42.500 --> 00:36:45.420 me on Linkedin. You can ask me questions. I'm very available. This 571 00:36:45.539 --> 00:36:49.610 is to me. Revenue Operations is the same thing as going from waterfall to 572 00:36:49.730 --> 00:36:53.610 agile was for development. This is a fundamental change in business. It's a 573 00:36:53.690 --> 00:37:00.840 methodology change. Businesses that adopt revenue operations will become tomorrow's leaders. I have 574 00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:04.679 no doubt in my mind that this is not a fat it's not a word 575 00:37:04.760 --> 00:37:08.840 change. It is a hundred percent an efficiency gain, again, like moving 576 00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:14.199 from manufacturing to lean manufacturing. And so you, your business should be listening 577 00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:16.389 to this and seeing where you can pick up tactics today and how you can 578 00:37:16.429 --> 00:37:21.550 build yourself into these, what I think will be tomorrow's businesses. I love 579 00:37:21.630 --> 00:37:23.070 it, Jason. Thank you so much for being our guest today. I'm 580 00:37:23.070 --> 00:37:27.190 going to let you go enjoy the R andb song of your choice. Further 581 00:37:27.230 --> 00:37:30.699 Resto the afternoon. Man, I swear by the moon and the stars in 582 00:37:30.780 --> 00:37:35.659 the sky. Thank you very much, Logan. For the longest time I 583 00:37:35.900 --> 00:37:38.940 was asking people to leave a review of BB growth in apple podcasts, but 584 00:37:39.139 --> 00:37:44.489 I realize that was kind of stupid, because leaving a review is way harder 585 00:37:44.969 --> 00:37:47.489 than just leaving a simple rating. So I'm changing my tune a bit. 586 00:37:47.730 --> 00:37:51.610 Instead, of asking you to leave a review, I'm just going to ask 587 00:37:51.650 --> 00:37:54.650 you to go to beauby growth and apple podcasts, scroll down until you see 588 00:37:54.690 --> 00:37:59.400 the ratings and review section and just tap the number of stars you want to 589 00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:02.880 give us. No review necessary, super easy and I promise it will help 590 00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:07.440 us out a ton. If you want to copy on my book content base 591 00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:09.920 networking, just shoot me a text after you leave the rating and I'll send 592 00:38:09.960 --> 00:38:13.949 one your way. Text me at four o seven for and I know, 593 00:38:14.469 --> 00:38:15.989 three hundred and three two eight