Transcript
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Welcome back to be to be growth. I'm Dan Sanchez, was sweet fish
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media, and today I'm joined with
Dan Meisner, who is the head of
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strategy and audience development at Pacific content. Are You doing today, Dan?
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I'm doing great. Thanks so much
for having me. Absolutely and thanks for
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take making time to record this episode. Today we're going to be talking about
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strategies to grow your podcast audience at
launch, but before we do, Dan,
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can you tell us a little bit
about what you and the team at
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Pacific content have been up to?
Yeah, Pacific content is a slightly odd
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company in that we really only do
one thing within the podcast ecosystem, and
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that is we make original podcasts with
brands. We don't have our own editorial
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slate, we don't make our own
shows, we don't have an advertising network,
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we don't have inventory to sell.
Really, what we do is we
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work with forward thinking brands who want
to make a genuine audience first show.
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So that's the only thing that we
do, and we like to think for
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pretty good at it. I think
so. I've gone and listen to multiple
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episodes from multiple the podcast you guys
are produced and I could say like it's
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they are high end. I mean, it's almost like ear candy, like
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it sounds so good and it's fun
to jump into those episodes. So Pacific
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content. I think you guys are
in a league in yourselves and as far
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as podcast producing it's pretty remarkable stuff. Well, thank you. And one
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of the things that we've noticed,
especially with the style of show that we
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typically do, which is, as
you say, pretty heavily produced, really
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high production values, often narrative style
storytelling shows. What we've found is that,
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especially for brands, that is one
of the ways you can differentiate yourself
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right. You know, we're on
a podcast right now which is two people
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with two microphones on a zoom connection, and those, some of my favorite
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shows are done that way. But
it's a whole lot more difficult to pull
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off something with higher production values.
And if what you want to do is
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set yourself apart sort of bumping up
the quality, bumping up the production values,
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having sort of a scripted or a
narrative style series, that is one
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way that we found the brands can
sort of set themselves apart. Absolutely so
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when you're first working with these brands
and they're launching their podcast, what what
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are some things that a company needs
to consider before they even get started.
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How do you help them with that? So when we start to work with
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a new client, one of the
most important things that we talked about is
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the intersection of what we call creative
bravery and commitment. These are really the
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two key ingredients in any successful podcast
from a brand and, I would argue,
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any successful podcast from anybody. And
when I talk about creative bravery,
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that means making a genuine and lie
good show. I think it's really,
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really easy, especially if your company, especially if you're a brand, it's
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really, really easy to make something
that feels like a brochure or an infommercial.
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It's really easy to put your your
own comms people on Mike and have
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them interview your own SMS, have
them interview your your own executives about your
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own products, about your own services. It's really easy to make sort of
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a fairly navel gaysy kind of show
if you're a brand. And so when
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we talk about creative bravery, we're
talking about making something that is not that,
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that is not a brochure, that
is not an infommercial, but is
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really about the thing that you have
to say that nobody else can offer and
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where that meets up with what audience
is actually want to hear, right,
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because very few people are going to
voluntarily opt into listening to the audio equivalent
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of a brochure where your executives are
talking about your products, your services.
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It's a whole lot easier to build
sort of an audience first show designed to
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stand up and to compete very favorably
against not just other branded podcasts or other
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shows from brands, but compete against
everything else that somebody could choose to listen
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to. And so when we talk
about creative bravery, we're talking about making
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a genuine audience first show. That's
the first part and that's a paradigm shift
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for a lot of companies. Right, don't make it about yourself. You
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know, you don't want to be
the person at the party who only wants
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to talk about themselves. Nobody wants
to hang out with that person. And
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so that's the first part creative bravery. And then when we talk about commitment,
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that's about using all of your own
channels, your internal channels, doing
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some paid doing some earned work,
like using all of the tools in your
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tool kit to reach the right people
at the right time. So basically,
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make a good show and tell people
about it. You put those two things
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together, that is the foundation of
success for a podcast, I would argue,
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from a brand, but really from
anybody. I love that, Dan.
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I love how when you guys first
approach it, it's almost like how
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a startup approaches developing a product,
you know, in the customer discovery process,
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because it's not about you and what
you can make right. It's about
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what your audience wants, what they
need, maybe, what their problems are,
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what's not out there on the market. Right. It's about finding something
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that you can are especially equipped to
deliver, using empathy, using, I
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don't know, just being connected to
your your customer, being connected to your
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audience, in order to deliver something
that they'll find remarkable. It's about right.
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Yeah, yeah, I mean Tom
Webster from Edison Research Talks about what
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is the audience or what is your
audience clamoring for at any particular moment?
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And odds are they're not clamoring for
a discussion among your companies executives. They're
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clamoring for things that are going to
provide value in their lives, that they're
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going to find useful, that are
going to apply to them in a personal
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way. Things that are going to
be resonant and I think if you start
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with that audience first mindset, that's
where we would always steer people. Yeah,
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you want to sort of make the
show that your audience is clamoring for
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and you want to make the show
that, again, this is a Tom
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Webster is m make the show that
only you can make. What is the
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take that you have? What is
the POV that you have? What is
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the access that you have? What
are the stories that you can tell that
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nobody else can tell? What is
the show that you, as a brand,
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are uniquely suited to tell? That's
that's where we're trying to get to.
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And you usually use like customer surveys, interviews. Do you come up
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with us some hypothesis is as far
as what would work, and then test
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them early on? How do you
find what audiences are clamoring for? So
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the great news about working with the
kinds of forward thinking businesses that Pacific content
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works with is that a lot of
them have done this work already. Right,
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so we work with, or give
you an example, we work with
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red hat. There an open source
software company. They have spent decades working
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in and alongside the open source community. They have developer advocates, they have
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people who are in support who are
talking to customers and clients every single day.
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They are deeply embedded in the open
source community. They live and they
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breathe that, and so the great
news there is they've already got a deep
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understanding of who their core audience is. We make a show with red hat
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called command line heroes, which is
all about open source software development and open
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source principles and how those have played
out over history, and it's a great
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show designed to reach open source software
developers, SISIDMIN's IT architects, technologists.
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That's who they're trying to reach,
and so when we first started working with
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red hat on that project, it
was such a gift that they had already
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done a tremendous amount of audience research. They knew who they wanted to talk
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to because they'd already been talking to
them for years and years and years and
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years. So things like actual customer
stories, things like persona work, all
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that stuff is often very, very
helpful, especially when we're learning about a
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company and trying to understand their goals
and then to translate their brand voice into
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compelling audio product and make so much
sense to tap into just their existing research
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and assets that they've already compiled and
then you get to go and mine it
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and find essentially come up with ideas
for the the content that will work.
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So that's great. But once you
have that, and I wouldn't pretend to
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I would not pretend to know better
than red hat what open source software or
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developers want. Right, like they
are genuinely the experts in their audience,
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in their industry, and I think
when Pacific content works with a company,
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it's really a coming together of two
teams. Right, our clients bring their
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expertise about their industry, their audience, who they're already talking to, who
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they want to talk to more,
and what Pacific content brings to the table
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is that audio expertise how to tell
stories through sound, how to package this
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stuff and how to market audio products. And this is one of the things,
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and I think we're going to get
into this, it's like there's not
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a tremendous amount of expertise or experience
in marketing audio products. We were with
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a lot of clients who are very, very good at marketing their services,
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marketing their products, selling what they
do. They're good at that and they've
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done it for very long time.
But what's sort of new and interesting about
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audio work, and podcasting work in
particular, is that there's not a tremendous
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amount of expertise in marketing an audio
product, marketing a media product, and
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sort of the foundational idea of Pacific
content as a company is that we help
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our clients think and act more like
media companies and that's the win in our
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books. So there's a lot of
work that goes into making that content amazing
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and once you kind of have an
idea and a plan and start working on
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production, this is probably where you
come in as the the head of audience
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development. What are some of the
early steps you take to make sure that
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when this thing hits long lunch day, you're not just starting the promotion then
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like you've been working on it building
up to that? What are some of
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those those processes you put in place? So I'm really, really lucky in
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that over the past couple of years
we've made a big dent in this idea
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that audience development or podcast marketing is
an afterthought. That's the wrong way to
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think about this. It's not like
you make the show and then figure out
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how we going to get people to
listen to this. That's backwards in my
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mind, and the way I think
of audience development is, you know,
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it's almost the flip side of the
editorial right. So people often ask me,
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because my job title includes the words
Audience Development, people ask me,
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okay, how do I build an
audience for my podcast? And in a
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lot of ways that is a very
understandable, natural question to ask. How
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do I build an audience for my
podcast? I get why people ask that
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question, but in a lot of
ways I think it's the wrong question.
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Right, I want to start from
a place where we're not trying to build
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an audience for your podcast, but
I'm trying to help you understand that step
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zero is build a podcast for your
audience. Figure out what are they clamoring
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for, what do they want,
what are they not getting already, what
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are we uniquely suited to offer them, and then you build the show for
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the audience that you want to reach. That is that like, that is
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step zero. That is that is
the very, very beginning and it's a
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subtle thing, but I think it's
a really important thing that a podcast marketing
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audience development. It is not an
afterthought and it is not a bag of
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tricks that I can somehow sprinkle onto
any show and expect great results from.
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You can't treat your podcast marketing as
an afterthought and if you're not thinking about
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audience development from day one and actually
building a show to serve an audience,
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I think you're doing it wrong.
So I think you know that's not super
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tactical, but it's a mindset shift
that I think a lot of people need
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and could benefit from. Absolutely.
I mean the products got to be remarkable.
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It's got to be that purple cow
right from Steff Goden's book exactly to
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start, and that makes it a
lot easier when you actually start promoting this
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thing. Do you do any work
to prep clients, to help them like
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get ready for that launch day,
or do you kind of have like a
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mindset of like, if we build
it, they will come? So it
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absolutely not. If we build it, they will come, and we do
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a lot of work around around sort
of client education, because for many of
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the companies we work with this is
their first for a into audio work,
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podcast work and and so sort of
my general approach. Before we get into
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any sort of deep tactical stuff with
clients, I often talk about the lenses
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that we use to think about audience
development, and some of those are are
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sort of audience specific. So we
talked a lot about the difference between preaching
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to the converted versus growing the Pie. And when I say that I mean
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you know, depending on who you
ask, anywhere from a quarter to a
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third of the American population self identifies
as a regular podcast listener, which means
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most people are not regular podcast listeners. You know, anywhere from two thirds
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to three quarters of the US population
not regular podcast listeners. And so strategically,
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you want to have this lens of
what's our strategy for reaching existing podcast
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listeners and what is our strategy for
growing the Pie? What is our strategy
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for reaching people who do not yet
self identify as regular podcast listeners? And
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this is I think we're brands often
have a pretty big advantage because they often
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have owned channels that can be used
to introduce people not just to their show
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but to an entire medium, and
that's a powerful place to be. So
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the first lens that we typically talked
about is, okay, what are we
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going to do to reach existing podcast
listeners and what are we going to do
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to reach people who are not yet
fans of the medium. That's one big
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Lens. We also sort of slice
it up by time, looking at the
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schedule. Right, so thinking about
very distinct phases in the marketing plan for
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a show. What are we going
to do prior to launch? What is
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the build up period where we've got
maybe a trailer or a teaser or receding
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early access to episodes for internal audiences, finding the podcast club that already exists
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inside the company and getting those people
on board. You know, what do
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you do in the in the lead
up, in the buildup, before you've
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ever launched a single episode? Right? So we think about the pre launch
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period and some of the tactics that
you can employed there. We think about
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a series launch. Hey, the
show exists, boom, what's the big
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splash there? We also think about
episodic promotion and I think for a lot
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of shows each and every episode that
you release is an opportunity to build a
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marketing campaign around that specific episode.
Right. We work on a lot of
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shows where each episode is is distinct
enough and maybe covers a different industry or
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covers a different topic, covers a
different business approach that there are unique cohorts
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within the overall audience that you could
reach. Right, good example of this
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we do a show with Zen desk
called repeat customer, and each and every
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episode features a different company, a
different business tactic and a different industry.
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Right. So, whether we're doing
an episode about cruise ships or we're doing
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an episode about bed sheets, you
can market those two different episodes in very,
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very different ways. So we think
about episodic marketing. And then the
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other sort of final phase that we
tend to think about is is back catalog
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promotion, the ongoing promotion, because
if you're making episodes that are designed to
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have a long shelf life, that
are designed to be evergreen, you want
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to, you know, get all
the Jews you can squeeze out of those
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episodes that you made. And so
if you've got fairly timeless material, what
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are the things that you can do
six months, a year, two years,
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ten years after the episode dropped to
get more ears on it? So,
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again, coming back to this idea
of lenses, it's it's sort of
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preaching to the converted versus growing the
Pie. And then, sort of based
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on time, what are you doing
pre launch, what are you doing at
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launch? What are you doing for
each and every episode and then what are
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you doing in an ongoing way to
continue to market the back catalog? And
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so when we initially engage with a
client, we're talking again strategically about all
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of those different elements and then we
sort of dive into some of the tactics
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which which I'm happy to talk more
about. Absolutely. In fact, before
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we jumped onto this episode, I
was talking about like how will heat out.
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Dam would build a plan for different
size companies, because obviously it changes
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depending on how how large the company
has. So let's dive into like what
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that would look like for maybe a
small company, a company that's maybe,
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you know, around the size of
like a million in revenue. They want
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to start a podcast because they know
it's great for top of funnel engagement,
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it's great for building an audience,
but they don't have too much of a
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budget to go out there and do
a lot of paid media around growing their
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audience. So what would you say
like some of the best best things that
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can do, assuming they have some
pretty good content? Yeah, I mean,
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if you don't have a lot of
dollars to spend, the good news
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is outside of paid hopefully you've got
some owned channels that you've been building up.
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Hopefully you've got some earned opportunities and
some friendlies and you know, perhaps
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there are internal resources that you can
tap into. I mean on the smaller
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side. You know, what can
I do? What can I do for
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free? There are lots of great
free ways to market a good audio product
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and you know, thinking about those
lenses, thinking about how do we mark
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it to existing podcast listeners? Things
like Promo swaps, things like feed drops,
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things like podcast guesting. These are
often no cost or low cost ways
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to market your show in on a
authentic and incredible way, and I think
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the key to doing that is not
doing it with an eye to necessarily building
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your audience as a direct result,
but actively participating in sort of the audio
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community and actively learning about the medium. Right. So I think I think
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feed swaps, I think podcast cross
Promo, I think guesting. I think
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those are all valuable ways to spend
little or no money and expand your network
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and expand your reach. I think
if you've got a little bit of money,
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if you got some paid dollars to
spend, the good news is if
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you've got a very, very targeted
audience or you're reaching trying to reach a
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niche, demographic there are often smaller
shows with devoted followings where a couple grand
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or even a couple hundred dollars with
a well targeted ad by can go a
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long way. Right. If I'm
a really into fly fishing and I've got
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a fly fishing business and I want
to reach fly fishing enthusiasts, there are
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definitely fly fishing podcast that I can
reach out to that do not have massive
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reach and are not hitting Joe Rogan
style numbers, but are hitting exactly who
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I want to hit right. So, if I'm a fly fishing supplier and
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I want to reach fly fishing enthusiasts, the good news is it's not hard
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to find the good fly fishing podcasts. And if I've got something that is
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distinct in the market place, if
I've got a unique take, where I've
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got access to unique guests, where
I have a star storytelling approach, or
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I'm doing the world's first fly fishing
game show podcast and I've got something different
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to offer, then finding those adjacent
shows and then collaborating with them, maybe
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buying ads on their show, may
be paying for a feed drop, that
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kind of thing. That's where I
think you know a couple hundred or a
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couple of thousand dollars can really go
quite a long way. But it works
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best, I find, when you're
really targeting a niche audience, so that
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you're not there's not a lot of
wasteach. Hey, everybody, logan the
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sweet fish here. You probably already
know that we think you should start a
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podcast if you haven't already. But
what if you have and you're asking these
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kinds of questions? How much has
our podcast impacted revenue this year? How's
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00:20:45.809 --> 00:20:51.359
our sales team actually leveraging the podcast
on tent? If you can't answer these
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00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:55.599
questions, you're actually not alone.
This is why I cast it created the
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00:20:55.680 --> 00:21:00.440
very first content marketing platform made specifically
for be tob podcasting. Now you can
279
00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:07.670
more easily search and share your audio
content while getting greater visibility into the impact
280
00:21:07.789 --> 00:21:11.829
of your podcast. The marketing teams
at drift terminus and here at sweet fish
281
00:21:12.029 --> 00:21:17.230
have started using casted to get more
value out of our podcasts, and you
282
00:21:17.390 --> 00:21:21.819
probably can to. You can check
out the product in action and casted dot
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00:21:21.900 --> 00:21:30.180
US growth. That's sea steed dot
US growth. All right, let's get
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00:21:30.180 --> 00:21:37.410
back to the show. It's interesting
you you talk about paid just in terms
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of promoting on other niche podcast that
are similar to yours. Would you dip
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into paid social at all? Before
I would dip into paid social, I
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would think about some of the opportunities
that have come along just over the past
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year or so. You know,
for a while there were podcast APPs,
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you know, places like overcast,
where you could spend a couple hundred dollars
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on paid in APP Promo and that's
very much a preaching to the converted tactic.
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When you buy display ads inside podcast
APPS, you're only reaching people who
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are already inside a podcast APP.
So you know there's a high likelihood that
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if you're advertising inside a podcast APP
that you're reaching existing podcast listeners. Cool,
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great, wonderful. And you know
overcast, I think, started doing
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this a couple of years ago and
just over the past year or so we've
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seen more and more sort of small
self serve style buys that you can do
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in places like. I think Castro
offers this. I believe cast box offers
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this, as some of the some
of the PODCAST APPS that are out there
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that have maybe small, single digit
percentage market share but passionate audiences who have
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opted into use a third party podcast
APP. I think those can be really,
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really smart buys, again depending on
the show and what you're trying to
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what you're trying to advertise. So
those are all some amazing tips for small
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companies with small budgets to back their
their podcast. What would you do with
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the midsize company that maybe starting to
roll around and know five to ten grand
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and adspend to throughout this, and
I mean five to ten grand maybe like
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on a monthly, monthly budget in
order to push this podcast out? Obviously
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they're going to do this stuff maybe
that the small business could do and swapping
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episodes and things like that, but
what would you like level on there to
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get them a larger audience? Yeah, I mean on the paid side.
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I'm really interested in some of the
programmatic opportunities that are out there. So
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I know megaphone, through their mtm
marketplace, and art nineteen have fairly robust
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targeting that's available. I think MTM's
working with Nielsen and art nineteens got a
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collection of data suppliers. So if
you're interested in sort of reaching very,
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very targeted groups of people who are, you know, in a specific job
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function or interested in a certain sports
team or likely to buy a car in
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the next twelve months, you know, things like that, if that's who
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you want to reach. You know, if you've got a medium size budget,
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then some of the programmatic tools start
to become available to and I think
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those are those are very, very
interesting. Again, it depends a lot
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on the targeting and what you're trying
to offer, because so much of sort
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of the paid podcast add world for
so long was built on direct response advertising
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for products and services, meal kits
in boxes and razor blades, subscriptions and
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you know, all that sort of
stuff, all the you know, the
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the make your own website websites,
you know, stuff like that, right
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and translating the tools and the platforms
that are really designed for direct response advertising
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for products and services into tune in
style campaigns where the goal is not necessarily
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to get somebody to go use a
coupon code or hit a vanity url in
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order to buy a product, but
when the objective is, Hey, we've
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got a great show that we think
you're going to like and we want you
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to we want you to come check
it out because we think you'd like it.
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I think you've really got to have
a different mindset than you know,
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sort of typical ad buying which has
maybe more performance, performance based. Yeah,
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I mean, ultimately you're trying to
get them to subscribe, you try
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to get them to take an action, but it's hard to measure sometimes.
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Right with podcasting. You don't know
who subscribed, you don't know how to
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change the the retargeting adds if you're
running kind of those kinds of ads,
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to stop or start based on what
they've hit or not. It's a little
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it's a little bit more of a
black box there. Yeah, although some
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of the tools are starting to come
online to more effectively measure Roy on paid
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spend. You know tools like chartaboles
smart promos, which do audio to audio
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download attribution. I know pod sites
has similar products that do that type of
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attribution. It's getting better, but
I don't think it's nearly as sophisticated to
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some people might like it to be. So does that change when you start
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to get into a midsize company?
Does the owned or earned portion of promotion
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start to change in your mind for
those companies? or It's essentially it's pretty
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similar, like you're taken advantage of
your own own channels, your email list,
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your social feed, your friends out
there order do to anything? Does
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anything shift for you? I think
those things sort of scale along the spectrum
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of different sized businesses. But I
think one of the things that happens when
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you get into sort of a medium
or especially a large size business, you
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know, like a big brand,
right, a big household name style brand.
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What changes there is the value of
your own channels when it comes to
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Lever Jing earned opportunities. So,
for instance, you know there are lots
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of podcast apps out there, right, there's apple and there's spotify and there's
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a pocketcasts and there's radio public.
There's a Zillion podcast apps out there and
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many of those podcast APPs have editorial
front pages, right. So probably the
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00:27:06.059 --> 00:27:10.180
most famous example of that is the
front page of apple podcasts. Right.
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How do you get into that flowcase
spot how do you get into the new
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and noteworthy section? How do you
run yourself up the charts and down the
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charts and all that sort of stuff? And with a lot of these editorial
361
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front pages, there's a very limited
amount of space on those pages and their
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programmed by human beings and their programmed
by human beings who are interested in highlighting
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high quality content and they're interested in
highlighting shows from podcasters and podcast publishers who
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are invested in making their show a
success on whatever the platform is. So
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when you've got large owned channels,
you can start to use those to incentivize
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or make yourself more appealing to the
podcast APPS for editorial placement. Right,
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I can give you an example.
So we work with Mozilla. There the
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nonprofit that makes the Firefox Web Browser, and Firefox is, you know,
369
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I can't remember exactly what the market
share is, but it's, you know,
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it's more than more more than a
couple percentage points, sort of a
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global market share in terms of browsers. Mozilla owns firefox and on the front
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page of the Firefox web browser that's
entirely controlled by Mozilla. So when they
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came out with their podcast irl they
were able to put podcast advertising for their
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brand new show on the front page
of everybody who had firefox installed. Right,
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you open up a new tab and
there's a search box and then below
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that there's a little snippet that shows, Hey, we've got a new show,
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we think you're going to like it. That's an amazing owned channel and
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you could replace that with, you
know, any other kind of in product
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messaging or a big email list or
big social following or a celebrity who's hosting
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your show. Like what your big
owned champ? You know, insert big
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00:28:57.220 --> 00:29:02.140
owned channel here. Right. You
can take that and you can go to
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the platforms and you can say like
Hey, look, we got a new
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show coming out, we're really excited
about it, we think it's good.
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It's not an infommercial, it's not
a broach shore, it's a genuinely good
385
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show. Here's who were trying to
reach and here are all the things that
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00:29:15.329 --> 00:29:19.930
we're doing as a company. Here
are all the things that we're doing to
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00:29:21.170 --> 00:29:27.240
make our show a success on your
platform. And that is when incentives begin
388
00:29:27.319 --> 00:29:32.960
to a line. Right. This
is when, if you can demonstrate to
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a platform, a podcast listening platform, that you are really excited about making
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your show a success on their platform
and you're going to drive traffic to your
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00:29:44.309 --> 00:29:47.470
show on their platform. And here's
how you're going to do it. Through
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00:29:47.549 --> 00:29:52.069
big owned channels, through paid campaigns
and through you know, if you've if
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you're a fiftyzero person company, that's
a significant number of people that you could
394
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drive a lot of traffic to your
show on their platform. And so,
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just as or come back to this
idea of people look at the front page
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of Apple, people look at the
front page of, you know, insert
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podcast APP x here. People look
at those and they say, how do
398
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I get on those? And I
think the answer to that, and I'm
399
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not speaking about any particular platform here, I'm saying the answer to that is,
400
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if you want editorial front page placement, number one, make a good
401
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show and, number two, demonstrate
that you're going to market it in a
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00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:26.680
smart way and demonstrate to the platforms
that you are incentivized to send traffic their
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00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:30.640
way. I think sends if you'd
position those things. Yeah, if you
404
00:30:30.680 --> 00:30:36.829
do those things, I think your
odds of getting sort of editorial placement go
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up right because what are the human
beings who curate the front pages of PODCAST
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APPS want? They want they want
to highlight good content that is worth their
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00:30:45.910 --> 00:30:51.819
audiences time and they want to work
with people who are interested in making their
408
00:30:51.859 --> 00:30:55.299
show a success on their platform.
I just think is about, you know,
409
00:30:55.339 --> 00:30:56.539
at the end of the day,
having a little bit of empathy for
410
00:30:56.579 --> 00:31:03.420
the people who who work on these
APPs and understanding their tastes and understanding,
411
00:31:03.059 --> 00:31:06.809
you know, what their incentives are. Man, I mean that makes so
412
00:31:06.849 --> 00:31:10.450
much sense if you got the leverage, then then it works, then it
413
00:31:10.809 --> 00:31:12.450
helps, but you certainly have to
be smart about it. You certainly have
414
00:31:12.529 --> 00:31:18.490
to position it directly and make sure
you're helping them when as well. There
415
00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:21.680
was one thing you mentioned that I'd
love to dive back into, since we've
416
00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:26.680
covered kind of like growth strategies for
small, medium and large businesses, is
417
00:31:26.920 --> 00:31:30.839
around repurposing content, just like even
be to be growth. We have over
418
00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:36.910
one five hundred episodes like it's we
have a catalog of content now and we
419
00:31:36.950 --> 00:31:38.910
were getting to explore how to take
some of the best of it and bring
420
00:31:38.950 --> 00:31:41.630
it back out into the light.
But what are some of the things you
421
00:31:41.750 --> 00:31:45.630
guys have been exploring as far as
bringing that content back out and getting more
422
00:31:47.539 --> 00:31:52.059
promoting it again, bringing it back
into yeah, maybe nurture sequences or in
423
00:31:52.220 --> 00:31:56.980
different ways. Yeah, so we've
done this is something that I find super
424
00:31:56.220 --> 00:32:00.420
interesting and not, I think,
not nearly enough people are thinking about this,
425
00:32:00.650 --> 00:32:05.170
because if you're investing in the first
place in making high quality content,
426
00:32:05.970 --> 00:32:08.089
it's important to not forget about it. Right. I think as podcasters we
427
00:32:08.170 --> 00:32:13.490
often have this tendency to want to
focus on the latest thing, the shiniest
428
00:32:13.529 --> 00:32:15.279
thing. What is the newest episode
that we put out. We sort of
429
00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:21.519
ignore the body of work that came
before it. And there's a lot of
430
00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:24.759
value in in your back catalog,
or there can be a lot of value
431
00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:28.680
in your back catalog, and so
you know, this question comes up a
432
00:32:28.759 --> 00:32:30.950
lot when we're looking at when we're
looking at back catalogs and trying to figure
433
00:32:30.950 --> 00:32:36.269
out, okay, which of our
episodes are worth resurfacing, which of our
434
00:32:36.309 --> 00:32:38.829
episodes, if we were going to
put some paid dollars behind episodic promotion,
435
00:32:39.150 --> 00:32:42.950
which ones would we choose? And
we've sort of put together a framework for
436
00:32:43.069 --> 00:32:46.740
thinking about out what in our back
catalog has the best chances of sort of
437
00:32:46.779 --> 00:32:52.059
continue to add value, and its
essentially a set of filters that we think
438
00:32:52.059 --> 00:32:53.859
about. So if you think about, you know, every single episode in
439
00:32:53.900 --> 00:32:58.539
your back catalog, and for some
people that may be more more easy to
440
00:32:58.569 --> 00:33:00.730
hold in your head at once,
depending on the depth of the back catalog,
441
00:33:00.730 --> 00:33:05.009
but if you think about all those
back catalog episodes and you just sort
442
00:33:05.049 --> 00:33:07.609
of make a list in your head
of like, what are the ones that
443
00:33:07.690 --> 00:33:14.079
are the best introduction to my show
for a new listener? Right if I
444
00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:19.440
met somebody at a party or sat
next to them on a train and I
445
00:33:19.599 --> 00:33:23.640
had to recommend some episodes to start
with. What would I tell them right?
446
00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:28.069
What are the five to ten to
fifteen episodes that I would say,
447
00:33:28.069 --> 00:33:31.230
okay, here's that, here's my
start here playlist. I think starting with
448
00:33:31.430 --> 00:33:36.109
that is is a great place,
because you, as the podcaster, probably
449
00:33:36.190 --> 00:33:38.950
have the closest relationship with the material
right and you know which one sort of
450
00:33:38.950 --> 00:33:43.740
hit and which one's resonated with you, and not just which ones performed the
451
00:33:43.779 --> 00:33:46.660
best, but which ones were the
most representative of what the show is.
452
00:33:47.099 --> 00:33:50.980
You know, and I think the
way to get a you know, that
453
00:33:51.099 --> 00:33:54.180
list of questions is really like asking
yourself, Hey, if I needed to
454
00:33:54.220 --> 00:33:58.410
tell somebody, here are the two, three, four five episodes to begin
455
00:33:58.490 --> 00:34:00.650
with. These are the ones that
are on the list. So I think
456
00:34:00.690 --> 00:34:04.569
you start with that list and then
you can go through and sort of filter
457
00:34:04.690 --> 00:34:07.569
things out so you can then ask, okay, does this hold up?
458
00:34:07.769 --> 00:34:10.599
Is it still relevant? Is it
too timely? Is it too hooked to
459
00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:15.840
the news of the day? Is
it too hooked to a particular season of
460
00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:17.440
the year, those kinds of things, and you sort of throw those away
461
00:34:17.920 --> 00:34:22.880
and then the sort of next filter
I would use is looking at past performance.
462
00:34:22.039 --> 00:34:25.989
And so you know what's great is
that as podcasters, we now have
463
00:34:27.150 --> 00:34:32.710
data from apple podcasts, from spotify, now from Google podcasts, from stitcher,
464
00:34:34.269 --> 00:34:37.550
sometimes from our hosting platforms. We
can see the audience or tention,
465
00:34:37.590 --> 00:34:39.900
the average time spent listening. Right. Are there people dropping off? You
466
00:34:39.980 --> 00:34:43.780
know, and I think one of
the great ways that you can use that
467
00:34:43.900 --> 00:34:51.179
data is to help you choose which
episodes you should continue to promote. Right.
468
00:34:51.300 --> 00:34:53.409
So, if you're if you're going
to introduce your show to New People,
469
00:34:53.650 --> 00:34:58.010
if you're going to try and Hook
New People on your on your show,
470
00:34:58.650 --> 00:35:00.809
put your best foot forward. And
how do you know what your best
471
00:35:00.849 --> 00:35:04.889
foot is? Will look at your
past performance. Right. So, if
472
00:35:04.929 --> 00:35:08.480
I've got a list of episodes that
I know for a fact stood out to
473
00:35:08.599 --> 00:35:15.400
me were some of my most memorable, favorable episodes that are still relevant,
474
00:35:15.599 --> 00:35:19.519
that aren't too dated and Heaven Gone
Stale, and I know that each and
475
00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:22.469
every one of them had one thousand
nine hundred and ninety five percent average completion,
476
00:35:22.909 --> 00:35:27.309
those are probably good episodes to put
in front of somebody. Right.
477
00:35:27.349 --> 00:35:30.309
Absolutely so. If you're dealing with
hundreds or hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of
478
00:35:30.309 --> 00:35:34.630
episodes at a back catalog. This
is where using some of that data that's
479
00:35:34.630 --> 00:35:38.059
available to us now as podcasters to
sort of whittle that list down can be
480
00:35:38.179 --> 00:35:43.099
really, really useful. So we've
gone through this process with with clients in
481
00:35:43.139 --> 00:35:45.179
the past who have said, okay, we've got some budget and we want
482
00:35:45.179 --> 00:35:49.860
to promote a back catalog episode or
a series of back catalog episodes. Which
483
00:35:49.900 --> 00:35:53.530
one should we prioritize? We've also
used this to identify sort of best of
484
00:35:53.650 --> 00:36:00.690
hits, right to include in email
campaigns. Right. You mentioned nurture campaigns.
485
00:36:00.889 --> 00:36:06.880
We've found that when you have high
quality audio, that you can actually
486
00:36:06.920 --> 00:36:13.119
offer that up to people and re
awaken certain email lists. So we were
487
00:36:13.159 --> 00:36:17.559
working with a client who had effectively
a completely dormant list. It was sort
488
00:36:17.590 --> 00:36:22.070
of almost written off. Just nobody
was opening the emails, nobody was clicking
489
00:36:22.150 --> 00:36:25.510
throughs like incredibly low engagement. It
was it was like a ghost town this
490
00:36:25.750 --> 00:36:31.309
this email list. And we said, well, you've got a really good
491
00:36:31.860 --> 00:36:37.699
podcast and we know, based on
the data that we have from podcast platforms,
492
00:36:37.739 --> 00:36:40.739
that when people hit play they tend
to make it all or most of
493
00:36:40.780 --> 00:36:45.659
the way through. Have you consider
putting that in front of them and you
494
00:36:45.739 --> 00:36:47.730
know, the worst case scenario is
your dead list is going to stay dead
495
00:36:49.130 --> 00:36:52.809
right. And what we've been able
to find is that when marketing audio,
496
00:36:52.969 --> 00:36:58.570
in this case back catalog audio,
either directly as audio or as transcripts or
497
00:36:58.650 --> 00:37:02.280
is blog post based on the the
audio, that this one particular of client
498
00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:07.960
was able to essentially reawaken this this
dormant email list and get engagement where there
499
00:37:07.039 --> 00:37:10.599
had been done in the past.
So I think audio can be really,
500
00:37:10.599 --> 00:37:15.949
really powerful on that front. That's
fantastic. So we're you getting him back
501
00:37:15.989 --> 00:37:20.389
out your you're taking the time to
find your your best of list, your
502
00:37:20.429 --> 00:37:24.590
most popular episode list and maybe the
ones that are the best to introduce the
503
00:37:24.670 --> 00:37:28.349
podcast. You almost got like three
separate lists there and you bring them back
504
00:37:28.389 --> 00:37:34.300
out with paid promotion in sticking them
email campaign specifically to reactivate kind of Norman
505
00:37:34.420 --> 00:37:37.300
or dead lists. Do you take
those lists and put them anywhere else,
506
00:37:37.460 --> 00:37:43.059
maybe to cure a blog post of
your best of or place them in different
507
00:37:43.059 --> 00:37:45.969
parts of your own media? Yeah, I think there are lots of things
508
00:37:45.969 --> 00:37:51.610
that you can do with them and
one really interesting development that I've been tracking
509
00:37:51.650 --> 00:37:53.889
over the past couple of months is
sort of the rise of podcast playlisting.
510
00:37:54.090 --> 00:37:58.760
So it was a couple months ago
that spotify introduced the ability for anybody to
511
00:37:58.840 --> 00:38:02.119
create a playlist of podcast episodes in
much the same way that you could create
512
00:38:02.159 --> 00:38:07.199
a playlist of songs, and I've
seen a number of shows do exactly that,
513
00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:12.320
put together their best of lists or
the start here list, or here's,
514
00:38:12.480 --> 00:38:16.150
you know, the host's personal favorites
list, and it's been interesting to
515
00:38:16.190 --> 00:38:22.269
see how certain shows have used playlisting
specifically. And you know, there's a
516
00:38:22.269 --> 00:38:27.300
whole lot of prior art here in
the music world of playlist marketing and I
517
00:38:27.420 --> 00:38:31.219
think there are going to be a
lot of folks borrowing strategies and tactics from
518
00:38:31.219 --> 00:38:36.300
from that world of sort of music
based playlist marketing and applying some of that
519
00:38:36.460 --> 00:38:40.099
thinking to to podcast playlists. That's
fantastic. I've it makes much sense.
520
00:38:40.099 --> 00:38:45.610
I've actually never, never considered beyond
like a start here, like best of
521
00:38:45.809 --> 00:38:49.369
list, that we can then go
in and create all kinds of playlists that
522
00:38:49.610 --> 00:38:52.090
people can go through, especially when
you have hundreds and hundreds of episodes,
523
00:38:52.130 --> 00:38:55.639
it starts to become really Andy.
Yeah, there's a there's a way to
524
00:38:55.719 --> 00:38:59.119
do that and you can you,
I think. I think there's nothing wrong
525
00:38:59.159 --> 00:39:02.079
with putting together a here are favorite
episodes of our own show. Start here.
526
00:39:02.199 --> 00:39:07.079
playlists. I think there's nothing wrong
with that. But in a lot
527
00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:10.630
of ways for brands where there's sort
of you're starting from a position where you're
528
00:39:10.630 --> 00:39:15.309
trying to fight this idea that you're
only talking about yourselves or you only your
529
00:39:15.469 --> 00:39:20.030
show exists to market your products.
I think there are ways that you could
530
00:39:20.030 --> 00:39:25.699
use playlists to really authentically engage with
the rest of the podcast ecosystem. What
531
00:39:25.860 --> 00:39:28.820
is it play? So if you're
a company, if you're a brand,
532
00:39:29.539 --> 00:39:32.420
what does it look like if you
put out a playlist of your own show
533
00:39:32.500 --> 00:39:37.019
featuring only your own episodes? That's
a look, and I might say it's
534
00:39:37.019 --> 00:39:37.849
a good look or a bad look. I'm just saying it's a look.
535
00:39:38.809 --> 00:39:43.530
You could also say, okay,
we're a cyber security company, here's a
536
00:39:43.610 --> 00:39:46.929
playlist of episodes from a bunch of
different shows that we think are the best
537
00:39:46.969 --> 00:39:53.480
episodes related to cybersecurity. One of
that's a very different look, right and
538
00:39:53.719 --> 00:39:57.599
you can look at sort of the
playlisting activity that's happening in places like,
539
00:39:58.000 --> 00:40:00.920
you know, pod chaser or you
can look at the spot the spotify playlists,
540
00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:06.079
the user generated spotify playlists, and
if you're a brand you can make
541
00:40:06.119 --> 00:40:10.630
it all about yourself, but you
can also choose to make it mostly about
542
00:40:10.630 --> 00:40:15.190
other people and the interests of your
audience, and maybe you've got a place
543
00:40:15.190 --> 00:40:20.349
at the table there. So I
think within playlist strategy there's a lot to
544
00:40:20.389 --> 00:40:23.500
talk about. Man Genius. I
love it. I'm like, Dang,
545
00:40:23.539 --> 00:40:27.579
I need to get on the spotify
and start making some playlist and I probably
546
00:40:27.619 --> 00:40:31.219
will soon. Is you any other
tips or things you wish audiences would know
547
00:40:31.539 --> 00:40:36.369
or could know or should know before
we wrap up this episode today? Dan,
548
00:40:37.130 --> 00:40:43.809
I think that across the board,
when we look at the intersection of
549
00:40:44.010 --> 00:40:51.199
audio, specifically podcasting, and brand
strategy, there's a lot of work to
550
00:40:51.320 --> 00:40:55.559
be done and there are a lot
of opportunities to really be bold and creative.
551
00:40:55.800 --> 00:41:00.519
And I think it's so easy to
make a safe show, I really
552
00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:05.630
do. I think it's really easy
to make a safe, dull, boring,
553
00:41:05.949 --> 00:41:12.110
mediocre show and there is inertia within
a lot of companies to head that
554
00:41:12.230 --> 00:41:17.190
way. Right and the thing that
I get excited about every single day is
555
00:41:17.349 --> 00:41:23.659
the idea of brands not just making
shows that are safe and not seeing as
556
00:41:23.739 --> 00:41:30.179
a potential liability within the company,
but making shows that are genuinely bold and
557
00:41:30.420 --> 00:41:37.409
interesting and breaking ground that has not
been broken before in the podcast ecosystem.
558
00:41:37.449 --> 00:41:39.610
I love the idea when we talk
about career of bravery, we're talking about
559
00:41:40.449 --> 00:41:46.010
having the guts to make an audience
first show and having the guts to experiment.
560
00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:50.480
And so, you know, I
love an interview show as much as
561
00:41:50.519 --> 00:41:53.199
anybody else and I listen to a
lot of interview shows. But I think
562
00:41:53.400 --> 00:41:57.800
there's a huge amount of opportunity,
not just for brands but for everybody,
563
00:41:57.880 --> 00:42:01.829
to really like push at the edges
of this medium and figure out how do
564
00:42:01.949 --> 00:42:08.630
we make shows that sound genuinely different, that are differentiated from, you know,
565
00:42:08.949 --> 00:42:13.909
the public and private radio traditions that
this industry has been built on.
566
00:42:14.389 --> 00:42:16.380
That really like, how do you
make something that is really fresh and really
567
00:42:16.500 --> 00:42:21.820
new, and I am excited for
sort of the edges of the medium to
568
00:42:21.860 --> 00:42:24.219
be expanded and for brands to play
a role in that. So, I
569
00:42:24.300 --> 00:42:28.619
mean there's an easy way to make
a podcast if you're a brand, and
570
00:42:29.019 --> 00:42:30.889
the easy way is not necessarily the
right way. And I just want to
571
00:42:30.929 --> 00:42:35.690
I'm excited to see people sort of
pushing it forward. I agree. I
572
00:42:35.809 --> 00:42:38.969
can't wait to see what happens with
podcasting. I mean I feel like it's
573
00:42:39.010 --> 00:42:42.769
been around for a while, but
I feel like we're still early on in
574
00:42:42.889 --> 00:42:46.000
this medium and we still have a
lot to explore, a lot to cover
575
00:42:46.440 --> 00:42:51.000
as far as what can be done
with audio and it's it's been growing over
576
00:42:51.079 --> 00:42:54.159
the last five years tremendously. So
I think we're only still in the beginning
577
00:42:54.159 --> 00:42:58.789
of phases of this thing and I
can't wait to see what happens. Dan
578
00:42:59.429 --> 00:43:02.949
As people want to learn more about
what you do and the work at Pacific
579
00:43:04.070 --> 00:43:07.789
content, where can they go to
learn more and connect with you? Our
580
00:43:07.949 --> 00:43:16.179
website is specific content dot calm and
we have a weekly newsletter that is,
581
00:43:16.579 --> 00:43:20.739
I think, up the alley of
anybody who listens to this show if you
582
00:43:20.820 --> 00:43:25.260
are a marketing minded audio person or
an audiominded marketing person, if you're if
583
00:43:25.260 --> 00:43:30.769
you're anywhere along that spectrum. We
put out a weekly email newsletter that feature
584
00:43:30.889 --> 00:43:35.650
some of our own original writing analysis
that we've done of the industry, some
585
00:43:35.809 --> 00:43:39.090
tips and tricks and strategy thinking there
and also sort of roundups of links.
586
00:43:39.809 --> 00:43:43.760
So if you want to, if
you're if you are like me and like
587
00:43:43.960 --> 00:43:49.800
deeply obsessed with audio but also deeply
obsessed with brand marketing and you like those
588
00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:52.079
two things together, we've got an
email news letter that's probably up your alley.
589
00:43:52.679 --> 00:43:58.030
It's fantastic. I will certainly be
subscribing myself in just a few short
590
00:43:58.070 --> 00:44:00.989
minutes. Thank you so much for
joining us on be to be growth.
591
00:44:00.349 --> 00:44:07.429
Thanks for having me down. I
hate it when podcasts incessantly ask their listeners
592
00:44:07.510 --> 00:44:12.139
for reviews, but I get why
they do it, because reviews are enormously
593
00:44:12.300 --> 00:44:15.659
helpful when you're trying to grow a
podcast audience. So here's what we decided
594
00:44:15.699 --> 00:44:17.420
to do. If you leave a
review for me to be growth in apple
595
00:44:17.500 --> 00:44:22.460
podcasts and email me a screenshot of
the review to James at Sweet Fish Mediacom,
596
00:44:22.780 --> 00:44:27.090
I'll send you a signed copy of
my new book, content based networking,
597
00:44:27.369 --> 00:44:30.409
how to instantly connect with anyone you
want to know. We get a
598
00:44:30.449 --> 00:44:31.929
review, you get a free book. We both win.