Transcript
WEBVTT
1
00:00:05.000 --> 00:00:07.830
Welcome back to the BB growth show. My name is James Carberry and I'm
2
00:00:07.830 --> 00:00:11.589
joined today by Joel clet key,
the founder of case study buddy. Today
3
00:00:11.630 --> 00:00:15.230
we're going to be talking about case
study best practices. I want to dive
4
00:00:15.269 --> 00:00:18.149
right into this job, but before
we do, give us a little bit
5
00:00:18.190 --> 00:00:21.230
of Backstore, or it give us
some context. Why are you so passionate
6
00:00:21.269 --> 00:00:24.660
about case studies to the point of
building an entire business around it? Yeah,
7
00:00:24.940 --> 00:00:27.660
so it all kind of happened.
It was like an offshoot of my
8
00:00:27.780 --> 00:00:31.820
core business. So in my own
consulting and copyrriating and conversion work I do
9
00:00:31.940 --> 00:00:34.659
a lot of voice of customer,
a lot of talking to people, a
10
00:00:34.780 --> 00:00:39.009
lot of digging into their problems,
their challenges and the solutions that they get
11
00:00:39.170 --> 00:00:42.090
and how they talk about those things. And so I've been wrapping up a
12
00:00:42.170 --> 00:00:46.090
project for an enterprise brand when I
was asked by someone who sat on their
13
00:00:46.130 --> 00:00:50.320
board if I did Tay Studies,
customer successor isn't the time? They weren't
14
00:00:50.359 --> 00:00:53.719
really on my radar. I mean
I knew what they were, but I'd
15
00:00:53.759 --> 00:00:58.079
never sat down to actually produce one. Testimonials. Sure, full blown case
16
00:00:58.119 --> 00:01:00.880
studies? No. So thought all, how hard can it be? And
17
00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:03.679
this was the kind of person you
just don't say no to. I'm like
18
00:01:03.759 --> 00:01:06.950
sure, sure, I'll take it
on. And in going through that process
19
00:01:07.150 --> 00:01:11.150
and doing the research for it,
a whole bunch of things came to light
20
00:01:11.230 --> 00:01:15.510
for me and I realized here is
an asset that every company, every Bab
21
00:01:15.670 --> 00:01:21.180
company, can benefit from having.
Nobody seems to have a really great process
22
00:01:21.299 --> 00:01:26.340
for putting together and when those two
things kind of collide it creates an opportunity.
23
00:01:26.420 --> 00:01:27.260
And then the more that I looked
at it, the more that I
24
00:01:27.379 --> 00:01:33.329
realized other blind spots in people's processes. I saw people aren't really even coming
25
00:01:33.370 --> 00:01:36.769
close to using this to their full
potential. I mean, I mentioned when
26
00:01:36.769 --> 00:01:38.969
I started talking here that I do
a lot of voice of customer research.
27
00:01:40.010 --> 00:01:42.609
I do a lot of work on
helping people convert better. From that angle
28
00:01:42.650 --> 00:01:46.689
I've seen the power of social proof
to drive a conversion. But through the
29
00:01:46.810 --> 00:01:49.200
research process of that, I've seen
how that can be used to inform messaging
30
00:01:49.280 --> 00:01:53.040
actually building the product the way that
you think about that. So it was
31
00:01:53.159 --> 00:01:57.480
this kind of Aha moment of okay, massively valuable asset, few people have
32
00:01:57.599 --> 00:02:01.549
a process for it. Massively under
appreciated impact that it can have. And
33
00:02:01.629 --> 00:02:06.150
then the seiler on it was when
I looked on to say surely somebody's planted
34
00:02:06.189 --> 00:02:08.430
the flag and said this is all
we do and we're the best at it.
35
00:02:08.509 --> 00:02:12.669
It was the waste land. There
was one woman, Casey Hibbert,
36
00:02:12.669 --> 00:02:15.099
who kind of wrote the book on
these and was service in constant, kind
37
00:02:15.099 --> 00:02:19.219
of specialized, and it was just
the smattering of like a service here,
38
00:02:19.300 --> 00:02:23.180
a service there, and add on, and I really thought that's not doing
39
00:02:23.259 --> 00:02:27.500
this justice. There's so much potential
here and and that got me fired up
40
00:02:27.500 --> 00:02:30.009
and I thought I can build the
process, I can build the company,
41
00:02:30.050 --> 00:02:32.289
I can do this at scale in
a way I haven't seen anybody do.
42
00:02:32.770 --> 00:02:36.490
I love it. Joel, I
first heard you speak, I think it
43
00:02:36.650 --> 00:02:39.650
was at a forget what conference it
was. It was a conference in Vancouver
44
00:02:40.169 --> 00:02:45.560
and I was captivated by what you
talked about there. Started following on Linkedin.
45
00:02:46.240 --> 00:02:47.599
You're talking a lot about this.
This is why I reached out to
46
00:02:47.599 --> 00:02:52.000
you to talk about this today.
It was because of the content you're putting
47
00:02:52.039 --> 00:02:54.199
out on linkedin around this stuff.
So if you're not following Joel already on
48
00:02:54.280 --> 00:03:00.110
Linkedin, going following there before we
dive into best practices. Y'All, I
49
00:03:00.189 --> 00:03:04.310
think we're going to camp out on
this one question for a while because it's
50
00:03:04.389 --> 00:03:07.669
really a lot of your linkedin content
is rooted in this. What are some
51
00:03:07.830 --> 00:03:10.550
common mistakes that you see a lot
of companies making when it comes to their
52
00:03:10.629 --> 00:03:15.139
case studies? Yeah, I mean, you're seeing my content rooted in this
53
00:03:15.259 --> 00:03:19.379
because I'm trying to shake companies by
the collar and get them to see the
54
00:03:19.460 --> 00:03:24.419
potential we are. So I think
early stage with people recognizing the opportunity sitting
55
00:03:24.419 --> 00:03:28.129
right in front of them, and
that gets me fired up. And whether
56
00:03:28.449 --> 00:03:30.610
we're, you know, me and
my company the ones to solve that,
57
00:03:30.689 --> 00:03:32.770
or people just start caring more about
this, I consider that a win either
58
00:03:32.849 --> 00:03:38.009
way. So one of the biggest
mistakes that I see starts way before fingers
59
00:03:38.050 --> 00:03:43.599
touch keyboards. Everybody kind of right
now. This is a big mistake is
60
00:03:43.599 --> 00:03:49.080
they treat customer success stories case studies
like these happy accidents. They sit passively
61
00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:53.759
waiting for someone to leave them a
review or put up their hands and a
62
00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:59.469
blowing email. They have no process, no system, no mechanism for making
63
00:03:59.550 --> 00:04:01.830
these stories come out in their business, or if they do, they're in
64
00:04:01.870 --> 00:04:06.349
these silos. So maybe a salesperson
gets an email thanking them for their time
65
00:04:06.349 --> 00:04:11.740
and saying we've just had this great
win. That never migrates its way over
66
00:04:11.819 --> 00:04:15.180
to the marketing team to become this
asset, or never makes it to leadership
67
00:04:15.180 --> 00:04:17.579
or never makes it to, you
know, hr to become this training asset.
68
00:04:17.699 --> 00:04:21.819
So I think one of the big
mistakes is not having a systematized way
69
00:04:23.259 --> 00:04:27.889
of collecting this feedback, not being
intentional about getting these stories in the first
70
00:04:27.970 --> 00:04:32.089
place. But before even that it's
the total lack of a strategy. So
71
00:04:32.730 --> 00:04:40.079
there's this prevailing myth I think that
all social proof is made equal, right
72
00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:44.240
one great testimonial is just as good
as another testimonial. My work on the
73
00:04:44.279 --> 00:04:48.920
conversion side is shown me that's patently
not true. Just having a platitude someone
74
00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:53.910
saying this is great is nice.
It's a warm fuzzy thing that a lot
75
00:04:53.910 --> 00:04:55.829
of people clap their hands and say, Yay, we got it, we're
76
00:04:55.870 --> 00:05:00.230
done. But having, for example, a testimonial that talks about a particular
77
00:05:00.269 --> 00:05:05.149
pain or a particular solution or particular
aspect of your service that can be used
78
00:05:05.149 --> 00:05:10.019
in a whole different way to break
down objections or let's say you're a company
79
00:05:10.100 --> 00:05:14.579
and you're thinking K, we want
to be reaching CMOS or we want to
80
00:05:14.620 --> 00:05:19.740
be reaching small business owners. The
role of the person giving that feedback,
81
00:05:19.860 --> 00:05:24.529
but also how you tell the story
to that person, it makes a huge
82
00:05:24.610 --> 00:05:29.329
difference in how to be received or
ignored. So having a strategy is a
83
00:05:29.529 --> 00:05:33.009
best practice that I think isn't even
on the radar of like ninety nine percent
84
00:05:33.089 --> 00:05:36.800
of companies. They're not sitting down
to document. Okay, listen, what
85
00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:41.279
stories do we need to tell?
And that's rooted in your business goals.
86
00:05:41.399 --> 00:05:45.079
Right. What are our business goals? What stories do we need to arm
87
00:05:45.079 --> 00:05:48.240
ourselves with to help get there?
Right, if we're trying to penetrate this
88
00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:51.910
market, what stories do we have
that show we can solve that prompt for
89
00:05:51.949 --> 00:05:57.189
that market, for trying to improve
our you know, lower our churn rate
90
00:05:57.189 --> 00:06:00.189
or improve our conversion rate? On
the nurturing sequences, what stories do we
91
00:06:00.310 --> 00:06:04.379
have that show the impact of what
we're doing? So a strategy starts with
92
00:06:04.819 --> 00:06:10.420
what our business goals? What stories
do we need to tell those business goals,
93
00:06:10.779 --> 00:06:14.899
and then how are we going to
use these stories? So this is
94
00:06:14.939 --> 00:06:18.610
another big gap that's tied into the
strategy. Thing is usage of these guests
95
00:06:18.769 --> 00:06:23.209
relegated to like will pop them on
a resource section of the site, like
96
00:06:23.370 --> 00:06:27.529
to get for us. We've got
our little PDF formats on the resources section.
97
00:06:27.649 --> 00:06:31.089
We're done. But people aren't considering, they're not having a strategy for
98
00:06:31.250 --> 00:06:35.560
how do we deploy these things to
generate leads? How do we deploy these
99
00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:40.720
two nurtural leads? How do we
deploy these to upsell leads? So no
100
00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:44.360
thought is being put into the end
use case and because no thoughts being put
101
00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:46.750
into the end use case, no
real thoughts being put into the format either.
102
00:06:46.790 --> 00:06:49.189
Yeah, yeah, so you you
would. Yeah, so you.
103
00:06:49.389 --> 00:06:54.029
You'd mentioned that earlier before we hit
record, that a big mistake that people
104
00:06:54.029 --> 00:06:57.790
are making is they're not they get
it created and they're like, Yay,
105
00:06:58.189 --> 00:07:01.100
it's on the resources page and then
nothing comes after that. Right. Is
106
00:07:01.180 --> 00:07:04.860
your suggestion to them, or what's
the best practice around what they should be
107
00:07:05.139 --> 00:07:11.660
doing once they have this epic story
ready to share? Yeah, so let's
108
00:07:11.699 --> 00:07:15.649
walk it back to what were your
business goals in the first place and where's
109
00:07:15.649 --> 00:07:19.170
your point of need, and that
should influence what you do if this.
110
00:07:19.290 --> 00:07:23.769
So here's my recommendation. You've got
this great story right and at the heart,
111
00:07:23.810 --> 00:07:25.649
and we'll talk about this, I'm
sure later, at the heart of
112
00:07:25.689 --> 00:07:29.490
the great story is a great customer
interview. So you've got these sound bites,
113
00:07:29.810 --> 00:07:32.360
you've got this narrative. Now you
need to sit back and think.
114
00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:39.240
Okay, how do we deploy this
across the entire funnel, not just at
115
00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:42.720
the end? How do we turn
this into a lead Jenasset? How do
116
00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:46.470
we turn it into a nursing asset? So literally for yourself, draw out,
117
00:07:46.670 --> 00:07:48.149
you know whatever framework you want to
use from, but have get a
118
00:07:48.189 --> 00:07:51.829
piece of paper and drought top of
funnel, middle of funnel, bottom of
119
00:07:51.910 --> 00:07:56.870
funnel and think for yourself about Kay. What do we have already as a
120
00:07:56.990 --> 00:08:00.540
company that occupies this space for top
of funnel? Maybe you're running ads.
121
00:08:00.939 --> 00:08:03.060
Just drop that down secure, running
adds. How could we use case studies
122
00:08:03.100 --> 00:08:07.139
in adds? And there's lots of
ways that you can use it in remarketing
123
00:08:07.139 --> 00:08:09.740
or you can do there's a kind
of ours named Cart Hook, and what
124
00:08:09.819 --> 00:08:13.889
they do is they just drive leads
from adds straight in the case studies with
125
00:08:13.089 --> 00:08:16.810
no opt in and then they remark
it to them later on to pull them
126
00:08:16.850 --> 00:08:20.730
back in. It works amazing the
book. So, Kate, top of
127
00:08:20.769 --> 00:08:22.850
funnel, adds. Top of funnel. Maybe it's SEO content, right,
128
00:08:22.970 --> 00:08:26.319
blog content, maybe it's guest post
content. You've got this great story.
129
00:08:26.639 --> 00:08:30.000
How can you use it there?
For middle of funnel, if you're a
130
00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:33.639
service based business, maybe it's in
your nurturer sequence. Okay, what snags
131
00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:37.919
are people hitting in our onboarding or
what questions do we know they need answered
132
00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:43.070
before they'll become a full fledged raving
fan? And how can we bake that
133
00:08:43.149 --> 00:08:46.070
into sair email sequence? Or perhaps
let's say that you are you know you've
134
00:08:46.110 --> 00:08:48.789
got a product or a suite of
products, and you've got one that's like
135
00:08:48.870 --> 00:08:52.309
an up cell. It's an upgrade. Okay, what kind of stories could
136
00:08:52.549 --> 00:08:54.860
could you tell? Or How do
you get a story that talks about something
137
00:08:54.860 --> 00:08:58.779
who made the choice to upgrade or
go to the superior product? How can
138
00:08:58.779 --> 00:09:01.019
you bake that into the middle phone? And then when you get to the
139
00:09:01.019 --> 00:09:03.100
bottom of the funnel, this one's
easy because everybody's already thinking about it,
140
00:09:03.179 --> 00:09:07.659
usually in these terms. But okay, where can we use this at the
141
00:09:07.659 --> 00:09:09.850
bottom of the funnel? Should we
be breaking out the testimonials from these to
142
00:09:09.889 --> 00:09:15.009
put on landing pages? Should we
be giving the sales seem PDFs? Should
143
00:09:15.009 --> 00:09:18.889
we be, you know, turning
them into other assets? So my suggestion
144
00:09:18.049 --> 00:09:22.769
is sit down, map out your
funnel and whatever framework works for you and
145
00:09:22.889 --> 00:09:26.879
think about, okay, not just
the resources section. How do we bake
146
00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:31.879
this into this great story? How
do we bake it in everywhere and look
147
00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:35.639
for opportunities through that Lens? I
love it. So you you mentioned a
148
00:09:35.679 --> 00:09:39.509
few things there. I want to
I want to go back to and a
149
00:09:39.710 --> 00:09:43.149
how do you go about choosing?
You alluded to this also before we started
150
00:09:43.190 --> 00:09:48.070
recording, that companies don't have a
process for doing these things on a regular
151
00:09:48.110 --> 00:09:52.419
basis and having they don't have a
feedback loop. They don't there's no mechanism
152
00:09:52.539 --> 00:09:58.659
to collect these great stories that can
then be repurposed and and used all throughout
153
00:09:58.659 --> 00:10:03.100
the funnel. How can companies think
like what are some stories that you've seen
154
00:10:03.139 --> 00:10:07.019
or some examples that you've seen?
You, maybe it's cart hooker, some
155
00:10:07.100 --> 00:10:09.809
of your other clients, what are
the processes that they've built to be able
156
00:10:09.850 --> 00:10:15.809
to consistently collect these kind of stories? So, as a theme, you
157
00:10:15.850 --> 00:10:22.039
want to make conversations with your customer
a normal feeling occurrence. This is a
158
00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:26.759
huge plague in places like software as
a service, where the mentality for years
159
00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:30.519
has been self, serve self,
serve self, serve as little contact as
160
00:10:30.559 --> 00:10:33.559
possible. I think a lot of
companies view conversations with them as a last
161
00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:39.110
resort or getting in the way,
as opposed to customer service, which I
162
00:10:39.149 --> 00:10:43.429
think is wrong. So the companies
that are doing this really well are systematizing
163
00:10:43.470 --> 00:10:46.230
the way they interact their customers.
And let me make that tangible. For
164
00:10:46.470 --> 00:10:48.549
example, one of the big problems
with customer success stories. Okay, you
165
00:10:48.669 --> 00:10:52.700
get a big win, but it
happened three years ago. That customer is
166
00:10:52.779 --> 00:10:56.779
so far away from when that happened
that if you go to interview them,
167
00:10:56.820 --> 00:10:58.340
they're not going to remember all the
details. You're not going to remember what
168
00:10:58.460 --> 00:11:01.179
brought them to you. They're not
going to feel that acutely. How do
169
00:11:01.259 --> 00:11:05.769
we get past that? How are
smart companies dealing with this? The mentality
170
00:11:05.889 --> 00:11:11.490
that we want to encourage companies to
have is consistency and escalating commitment, the
171
00:11:11.610 --> 00:11:15.210
goal being you don't want your request
for a customer success story. I feel
172
00:11:15.210 --> 00:11:18.529
like a stranger's like you're just swinging
out of the blue being like hey,
173
00:11:18.529 --> 00:11:20.559
you got to win I'm a person
with this company and could you talk about
174
00:11:20.559 --> 00:11:24.279
it? That's why so many people
hit no so hard, know as a
175
00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:28.240
response, because it's like, why
would I do you a favor? I've
176
00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:31.440
never heard of you. So some
practical ways to make this real? I
177
00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:35.789
firmly believe every single company on the
planet, especially in the services world,
178
00:11:35.990 --> 00:11:41.429
should be asking a one question survey
after the purchase, and that's simply what
179
00:11:41.629 --> 00:11:43.190
was going on in your business or
in your life. That sint you looking
180
00:11:43.190 --> 00:11:46.700
for our solution today. Right.
What were or, put another way,
181
00:11:46.740 --> 00:11:50.580
what are your goals with the product? So, for example, fresh books
182
00:11:50.620 --> 00:11:52.379
does this really well. There's different
companies that do this in roll, but
183
00:11:52.419 --> 00:11:58.139
they ask objective base questions so that
they can track and they have this record
184
00:11:58.220 --> 00:12:01.929
that they can go back to say
hey, when you join, this is
185
00:12:01.009 --> 00:12:05.809
what you told us was important to
you, this is what you identify to
186
00:12:05.889 --> 00:12:07.649
put up your hand and said this
is my struggle, and now you've got
187
00:12:07.730 --> 00:12:11.529
this kind of common framework to work
from where you can ask them, how
188
00:12:11.649 --> 00:12:13.450
have we solved that problem? Or
have we solved that problem? What of
189
00:12:13.529 --> 00:12:16.879
your results look like? So asking
a question at the point of on boarding
190
00:12:18.279 --> 00:12:20.879
best practice mission critical. Another thing
I'll say. You know, the NPS
191
00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:24.639
score sertly gets a bad rap in
a lot of places and I'm not going
192
00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:26.360
to sit here and argue that it's
like a great metric. I'll leave that
193
00:12:26.440 --> 00:12:31.190
debate to people who like having those
kinds of debates. I don't really care
194
00:12:31.230 --> 00:12:35.070
about the MPs score as a metric
so much as I love it as a
195
00:12:35.190 --> 00:12:39.230
way to frequently and with low friction, stay in touch with people and get
196
00:12:39.230 --> 00:12:41.110
a barometer from where your winds might
be. So if you, as a
197
00:12:41.149 --> 00:12:48.179
company don't have some formalized, scheduled
way of checking in repeatedly in a frictionless
198
00:12:48.179 --> 00:12:52.820
way to see how you're doing with
customers, it's a missed opportunity because,
199
00:12:52.179 --> 00:12:54.860
no, you don't want to send
this every month, but to find what
200
00:12:54.980 --> 00:12:58.570
makes makes sense for your sales cycle
or your customer relationship cycle or whatever.
201
00:12:58.970 --> 00:13:03.169
And when you when you send something
with low friction like an MPs score,
202
00:13:03.250 --> 00:13:07.090
what that does helps you quickly identify
wins in your customer base, helps you
203
00:13:07.090 --> 00:13:11.409
quickly identify advocates within your customer base, but it also shows you who's willing
204
00:13:11.450 --> 00:13:16.159
to respond, who's willing to engage, and then from there you have the
205
00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:18.639
opportunity to escalate. Hey, we
saw that you gave us a really good
206
00:13:18.679 --> 00:13:22.360
score here. Would you be interested
in chatting or can we? Can we
207
00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:24.960
talk to you about the experience that
you've had? And now maybe that looks
208
00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:28.309
like a survey, maybe it's a
quick call. All of this to say,
209
00:13:28.309 --> 00:13:33.190
though, to bring back to my
original point, normalize conversations with your
210
00:13:33.230 --> 00:13:37.389
customers and give that a face and
a name and a relationship, a person
211
00:13:39.029 --> 00:13:41.220
having those conversations, and that way, when you make the ask, you've
212
00:13:41.259 --> 00:13:46.379
got this historical record of what's actually
happened and it doesn't feel like it came
213
00:13:46.419 --> 00:13:50.779
from a stranger. So they're not
going to go, oh no, I'm
214
00:13:50.779 --> 00:13:54.379
not going to take part. Yeah, so I love that at normalizing the
215
00:13:54.460 --> 00:14:00.129
process of normalizing the idea that you
need to have more conversations with your customers.
216
00:14:00.250 --> 00:14:03.850
Normalizing customer conversations essentially, once you've
got somebody, you've buy you,
217
00:14:03.929 --> 00:14:09.289
maybe you've sent the MPs score,
you've noticed that man, this guy rated
218
00:14:09.289 --> 00:14:11.960
us off the charts. That is
now a flag to say, okay,
219
00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:15.320
let's go and have some conversations with
these people so that we can start to
220
00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:18.159
form these stories. I want to
talk about the interview itself. I know
221
00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:20.960
that you and your team, you've
got specific roles on the case study buddy
222
00:14:22.039 --> 00:14:26.309
team that do these interviews. There's
clearly some art and some nuance to drawing
223
00:14:26.470 --> 00:14:30.350
out the kind of information that you
need to be able to create a really
224
00:14:30.429 --> 00:14:33.750
compelling case study. Can you talk
to us about some best practices around the
225
00:14:33.870 --> 00:14:39.659
actual customer interview itself? Absolutely so. A lot of things that we've learned,
226
00:14:39.980 --> 00:14:43.539
some of them the hard way.
The interview is the heart and soul.
227
00:14:43.700 --> 00:14:46.620
A great interview makes for a great
case study. A bad interview and
228
00:14:46.700 --> 00:14:52.179
the whole thing shot be because what
gets missed is that these are not you
229
00:14:52.620 --> 00:14:58.049
success stories. It's not your perspective
that's important, though your side can certainly
230
00:14:58.169 --> 00:15:01.649
fill in in terms of what you
did for them and how you did that
231
00:15:01.850 --> 00:15:05.850
and why you did that, but
these are human stories about the customer.
232
00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:11.039
And so if you blow the interview
where you if you with on the interview,
233
00:15:11.080 --> 00:15:13.639
you don't get the detail you need
out of the interview or you do
234
00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:16.159
the interview the wrong way so it's
yes, no questions and you get like
235
00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:20.509
very basic insights your case study shot, you're gonna have a hard time recovering.
236
00:15:20.830 --> 00:15:28.110
So some simple best practices in terms
of just logistics. We always prefer,
237
00:15:28.470 --> 00:15:31.870
oftentimes there's like multiple people involved in
the success, and so that the
238
00:15:33.309 --> 00:15:35.940
tendency is, let's be efficient to
get them all on one call. Keep
239
00:15:37.019 --> 00:15:41.779
that call wherever possible, one to
one, one person interviewing, one person
240
00:15:41.940 --> 00:15:46.620
responding, because then you avoid the
cross talk, you avoid having one dominant
241
00:15:46.659 --> 00:15:52.129
voice versus own, who's perspective by
might actually be more valuable to the story,
242
00:15:52.529 --> 00:15:56.450
even if the role is less senior
or less significant. So one to
243
00:15:56.529 --> 00:16:00.730
one is a really critical one.
Another best practice is, and this is
244
00:16:00.850 --> 00:16:03.840
something that you know, I've been
I've been telling people, but it kills
245
00:16:03.879 --> 00:16:07.600
me a little bit every time I
share it because it's just so good and
246
00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:10.759
it makes such a big difference.
It's not going to sound sexy, but
247
00:16:10.840 --> 00:16:14.799
it's one of the most important things
you can do before the call happens.
248
00:16:15.559 --> 00:16:18.629
Give them some homework. If they
come in and cold to this thing and
249
00:16:18.789 --> 00:16:25.309
you start asking them about results or
metrics, I can promise you more often
250
00:16:25.350 --> 00:16:29.429
than not the response is going to
be I don't have that information, I'm
251
00:16:29.470 --> 00:16:32.899
not sure what I can disclose there
and and they'll say I'll get back to
252
00:16:32.940 --> 00:16:36.539
you on that and and they won't. You'll never get that information. So,
253
00:16:37.139 --> 00:16:38.940
as a best practice, you want
to make sure that you are prepared
254
00:16:40.100 --> 00:16:42.379
going into the interview, not only
with your question set in the details,
255
00:16:42.419 --> 00:16:45.620
in the background that you need,
but that the person on the other side
256
00:16:45.740 --> 00:16:51.889
is given the opportunity to feel equally
prepared and to bring what they need with
257
00:16:52.090 --> 00:16:56.370
them to help you get get the
best story that you can. So you've
258
00:16:56.370 --> 00:16:57.889
got to do your homework, but
you want to make it easy for them
259
00:16:57.970 --> 00:17:02.240
to give you a great story,
and that's what you have to be thinking
260
00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:06.039
about. I think, as a
best practice, one of the big mistakes,
261
00:17:06.039 --> 00:17:07.279
if we're going back to mistakes that
I mentioned at the beginning, the
262
00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:11.200
classic mistake, and this is why
people often don't think they need a service
263
00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:15.109
like case. Anybody until they tried
to to this part themselves. It's never
264
00:17:15.309 --> 00:17:19.750
going to be good enough to have
a really good core question set. Everyone
265
00:17:19.910 --> 00:17:25.269
gets excited about what question should ask, what question should I ask? Almost
266
00:17:25.390 --> 00:17:30.299
nobody is thinking about how should I
ask them and how is this conversation structure?
267
00:17:30.299 --> 00:17:33.019
A great question set is a good
start. It's never going to be
268
00:17:33.140 --> 00:17:38.299
enough and that's why we have dedicated
interviewers where all their only job is to
269
00:17:38.420 --> 00:17:45.849
get good at asking questions, following
up and feeding the person with what they
270
00:17:45.970 --> 00:17:48.930
need to Telegra right story. As
a rule, our goal is not to
271
00:17:49.930 --> 00:17:55.450
get this person to be a yes
man or a fact recid in an interview.
272
00:17:55.809 --> 00:17:59.119
Our job is to turn this person
into a story tone. So,
273
00:17:59.319 --> 00:18:03.400
as a best best practice, your
question should reflect questions that are more like
274
00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:08.039
story prompts, less like was that
a good experience or that sort of thing,
275
00:18:08.440 --> 00:18:14.390
and more these open ended questions that
prompt them to start loosening, jarring
276
00:18:14.430 --> 00:18:18.430
things, lose about their experience.
So I'm talking about questions that follow what
277
00:18:18.589 --> 00:18:22.029
we would call a BDA format.
You see this in infommercials all the time.
278
00:18:22.430 --> 00:18:27.819
Before, during, after, so
before questions talk about everything that was
279
00:18:27.859 --> 00:18:32.380
going on. So in the informercial
this is the person holding the bowl whisking
280
00:18:32.420 --> 00:18:33.700
the eggs and the eggs are flying
every like, oh, this is so
281
00:18:33.900 --> 00:18:37.339
hard, like my life is terrible, which is always always hilarious. But
282
00:18:37.420 --> 00:18:41.809
that's the before, right. You're
pressing into with these questions, the history,
283
00:18:41.089 --> 00:18:45.329
the pain, the triggers. What
sent them looking for a solution like
284
00:18:45.410 --> 00:18:48.329
yours, same question. You'll notice
that I said you should be asking them
285
00:18:48.410 --> 00:18:52.170
as a company before this process ever
happened. The during questions are questions that
286
00:18:52.210 --> 00:18:57.880
ask about not only what was done
but how it felt and what surprised them
287
00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:03.359
and what the impact of that was. And then the results questions. A
288
00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:06.640
lot of people love to just leave
this out of a very like play and
289
00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:10.230
face like what results have you seen
through working with us? And that's like,
290
00:19:10.309 --> 00:19:12.670
again, a great start, but
it's not enough. You know,
291
00:19:12.789 --> 00:19:15.990
like the sexy metric gets so much, such attention. Everyone wants to have
292
00:19:17.150 --> 00:19:22.269
like the ten percent lift for the
five thousand, five hundred thousand dollar increase
293
00:19:22.390 --> 00:19:26.900
or whatever. That's sexy. That
gets the readers, but what cells leads
294
00:19:26.579 --> 00:19:30.940
is the impact of the result.
What did that make possible for them?
295
00:19:32.059 --> 00:19:34.900
How did that tension be change things? I mean, yeah, let's say
296
00:19:34.940 --> 00:19:37.769
we're doing an seok study and it's
like, oh, they got a five
297
00:19:37.809 --> 00:19:41.250
hundred percent increase in traffic. That's
a great story. Okay, a five
298
00:19:41.250 --> 00:19:45.650
hundred percent increase in traffic is great. A five hundred percent increase in traffic
299
00:19:45.170 --> 00:19:51.529
that enables them to avoid having to
hire another person. That's another layer to
300
00:19:51.609 --> 00:19:55.519
the story and so you know,
that's why we kind of structure your goal
301
00:19:55.599 --> 00:19:59.720
with the interviews to ask these questions
before, during, aftertype questions in that
302
00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:03.400
order, with open ended questions and
good follow up, because you're trying to
303
00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:07.190
elicit these stories. You're not trying
to read off things like a robot.
304
00:20:07.269 --> 00:20:11.789
That's the big mistake I was alluding
to. You get a great question set,
305
00:20:11.829 --> 00:20:15.109
you get all excited about the call, you get on and you're so
306
00:20:15.309 --> 00:20:18.750
focused on your question set that all
you do is run off these questions instead
307
00:20:18.750 --> 00:20:22.859
of having a conversation. And so
that's that's where so many companies fall down,
308
00:20:22.940 --> 00:20:25.380
is the focus on the questions,
not the conversation. So they ask
309
00:20:25.460 --> 00:20:29.259
great questions, they get awful for
see, what can people be expecting,
310
00:20:29.299 --> 00:20:32.859
Joel, in terms of timing?
Should they be blocking an hour for these
311
00:20:32.980 --> 00:20:36.769
conversations? Can have a good conversation
in thirty minutes, like what? What?
312
00:20:36.970 --> 00:20:40.089
How do you think about that?
So you have to keep in mind,
313
00:20:40.130 --> 00:20:42.490
and this is why so much of
my time with case, so anybody
314
00:20:42.609 --> 00:20:48.130
is engineering and re engineering and working
on our process over and over and over
315
00:20:48.210 --> 00:20:52.279
to make it that you know he's
fine tuning little pieces. You're asking for
316
00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:56.319
a favor. And so if I
come to you and I say I want
317
00:20:56.440 --> 00:20:59.880
two hours of your time, or
I say I want one hour of your
318
00:20:59.960 --> 00:21:03.319
time, or I say I want
half hour. My yes, ratio is
319
00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:07.430
going to improve the less time that
takes. So you have to capture as
320
00:21:07.630 --> 00:21:11.509
much as humanly possible in a shorter
time period as possible, while not reading
321
00:21:11.509 --> 00:21:15.910
questions like a robot and having a
real human conversation. That's the art of
322
00:21:15.990 --> 00:21:21.019
the interview. That's why we have
people whose only job is getting that right.
323
00:21:21.420 --> 00:21:25.180
And so our target is thirty minutes
to forty five minutes. Are All
324
00:21:25.339 --> 00:21:29.579
in target, including reviewing the draft. Is We want to be able to
325
00:21:29.660 --> 00:21:32.779
make the promise that the entire process
is going to take less than an hour
326
00:21:32.859 --> 00:21:36.849
of their time. Most people can't
make that that promise because they don't have
327
00:21:36.890 --> 00:21:40.410
a process to support it. Yeah, but that is the goal and it's
328
00:21:40.650 --> 00:21:45.250
very possible to get everything you need, all the detail you need, if
329
00:21:45.289 --> 00:21:48.759
you have a plan going into the
call in forty five minutes, thirty minutes.
330
00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:52.960
That that sort of window. I'd
say if you're having ten minute conversations,
331
00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:56.279
you're not exploring it to the depth
that you need to. That's a
332
00:21:56.400 --> 00:22:00.599
sound bite. That's not a story, but you can usually get the core
333
00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:07.230
of what you need and the juicy
meaty stuff in under an hour. Hey,
334
00:22:07.269 --> 00:22:11.750
everybody logan with sweet fishing here.
You probably already know that we think
335
00:22:11.829 --> 00:22:15.109
you should start a podcast if you
haven't already. But what if you have
336
00:22:15.349 --> 00:22:19.180
and you're asking these kinds of questions? How much has our podcast impacted revenue
337
00:22:19.259 --> 00:22:23.819
this year? How is our sales
team actually leveraging the PODCAST content? If
338
00:22:23.859 --> 00:22:27.980
you can't answer these questions, you're
actually not alone. This is why I
339
00:22:29.099 --> 00:22:33.849
cast it created the very first content
marketing platform made specifically for be tob podcasting.
340
00:22:34.369 --> 00:22:40.450
Now you can more easily search and
share your audio content while getting greater
341
00:22:40.569 --> 00:22:45.200
visibility into the impact of your podcast. The marketing teams at drift terminus and
342
00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:49.599
here at sweet fish have started using
casted to get more value out of our
343
00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:53.599
podcasts, and you probably can to. You can check out the product in
344
00:22:53.759 --> 00:23:03.829
action and casted dot US growth.
That's sea steed dot US growth. All
345
00:23:03.829 --> 00:23:11.710
right, let's get back to the
show. So once you you've done the
346
00:23:11.750 --> 00:23:15.779
interview. Now you followed that before
during the after. I love that framework
347
00:23:15.819 --> 00:23:18.940
of really pressing into what was happening
before. What was the problem? They
348
00:23:18.980 --> 00:23:23.099
are experiencing before they found your solution, what happened during them implementing your solution
349
00:23:23.259 --> 00:23:26.170
and starting to get value from the
solution, and what was the impact of
350
00:23:27.089 --> 00:23:32.529
what they got as as a result
of the result your product or service help
351
00:23:32.650 --> 00:23:36.769
them drive? Now you go on
too. There's a reason you have interviewers
352
00:23:36.809 --> 00:23:38.690
and then you have writers on your
team. I'd love for you to dive
353
00:23:38.730 --> 00:23:44.279
into some best practices around. Okay, you've taken this interview. Now how
354
00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:48.880
do you write these stories in a
way that are going to be compelling and
355
00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:52.160
are actually going to work to drive
the goals that you wanted to drive in
356
00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:56.069
the first place? Yeah, I
think the big mistake here is that people
357
00:23:56.069 --> 00:23:59.990
again in the same way. Everyone
wants a formula for the interview. Everyone
358
00:24:00.069 --> 00:24:03.430
wants like an exact paint by numbers. This is what I do, instead
359
00:24:03.470 --> 00:24:07.750
of treating these like human stories and
conversations. And when it comes to the
360
00:24:07.869 --> 00:24:12.500
written piece, yes, I don't
think. I have a hard time imagining
361
00:24:12.539 --> 00:24:18.819
a future where challenge solution results.
Is Not that the standard flow of these?
362
00:24:18.940 --> 00:24:22.539
Now there are great case studies that
go beyond this and they have offshoots
363
00:24:22.619 --> 00:24:26.329
and and you know, but you
have to come in it with the mentality
364
00:24:26.450 --> 00:24:33.809
of more of a journalist reporting on
an intriguing development in the world versus someone
365
00:24:33.890 --> 00:24:37.569
writing a white paper. And the
problem is we got way too many white
366
00:24:37.569 --> 00:24:41.720
paper people, way too many paint
by numbers people, and not enough storytellers.
367
00:24:41.799 --> 00:24:45.880
And what's the difference? Right?
A white paper conveys facts. It's
368
00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:48.359
like here's what happened, here's you
know, here's what you're can expect.
369
00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:53.630
It like. It's very metric driven, staunch cold, and that's fine.
370
00:24:53.750 --> 00:24:57.109
There's a time and place for those
types of things, right, for things
371
00:24:57.150 --> 00:25:02.869
to be instructive and prescriptive, and
not everything has to be this emotional communication.
372
00:25:03.390 --> 00:25:07.019
But stories are because stories have tension
and emotion, they have stakes,
373
00:25:07.059 --> 00:25:11.819
there's things that happen and go wrong, there's things that develop up and there
374
00:25:11.859 --> 00:25:15.660
should be elements of surprise or delight
or those types of things. So when
375
00:25:15.660 --> 00:25:18.140
you sit down to write these best
practice is still going to be yes,
376
00:25:18.180 --> 00:25:25.049
challenge, solution, results. We
lean away from calling it a problem because
377
00:25:25.490 --> 00:25:27.329
companies don't like to think that they
have problems. They like to think they
378
00:25:27.329 --> 00:25:32.650
had a challenge. So the verbage
matters too. But when you're thinking if
379
00:25:32.730 --> 00:25:34.609
we break it down section by section. Right when we're talking about headlines,
380
00:25:34.650 --> 00:25:38.319
your headline has one job to get
people to read the study those headlines.
381
00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:41.839
I think some of the big mistakes
people make as they make it all about
382
00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:45.759
their company and not the client.
So it's like how we did this,
383
00:25:45.640 --> 00:25:51.109
while that's still a valid headline format
that will use, it's more about the
384
00:25:51.190 --> 00:25:55.470
impact of the client and that headline
should reflect the awareness level or stage of
385
00:25:55.470 --> 00:25:57.910
the funnel that you're trying to cater
to. So, for example, let's
386
00:25:57.910 --> 00:26:02.069
say your top of the funnel and
you're dealing with leads who are paining aware.
387
00:26:02.549 --> 00:26:06.259
So all your leads know you're running
ads and you're targeting people who know
388
00:26:06.660 --> 00:26:10.380
I've got a challenge, I've got
a problem, right, and that's where
389
00:26:10.380 --> 00:26:14.140
their mindset is at, then your
headline should probably be something related to the
390
00:26:14.259 --> 00:26:18.769
problem and the alleviation of that pain. So if I'm if I'm an accounting
391
00:26:18.130 --> 00:26:23.009
software company and it's tax season,
instead of having a headline that's like,
392
00:26:23.650 --> 00:26:29.289
you know, how how this person
I know has had a profitable ten year
393
00:26:29.329 --> 00:26:32.730
relationship with their accountant. Terrible.
anyways, my pain is, okay,
394
00:26:32.769 --> 00:26:36.240
I need to get my taxes done
quickly or I hate doing taxes or I
395
00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:38.359
want to get the biggest return possible. That's the pain I have. That
396
00:26:38.759 --> 00:26:41.759
is our know came, I see
from myself. So you want your headline
397
00:26:41.799 --> 00:26:44.720
to reflect that. I think another
big mistake, that you see this all
398
00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:49.230
the time still, is structurally.
oftentimes we like to plunge into just because
399
00:26:49.269 --> 00:26:55.029
it's the convention, right away we
start describing who the the company is.
400
00:26:55.190 --> 00:26:59.069
Right it's like X is a company
from my place. That's not how stories
401
00:26:59.190 --> 00:27:03.579
start. Can you imagine if Cinderella, but again with like Cinderella is a
402
00:27:03.819 --> 00:27:06.940
young woman who lives in this part
of this you know, like that's that's
403
00:27:06.980 --> 00:27:11.299
not a story. Stories plunge you
into the narrative. They start with tension
404
00:27:11.420 --> 00:27:15.299
and steak. Something's gone wrong,
justice needs to be served. So we
405
00:27:15.539 --> 00:27:18.210
prefer not to omit that information,
but we might put it off in a
406
00:27:18.369 --> 00:27:22.329
sidebar or at the end of the
story, because that's not the sexy part
407
00:27:22.410 --> 00:27:29.009
people came for. We you want
to use your challenge section to immediately introduce
408
00:27:29.130 --> 00:27:33.200
tension and give it a human face. Yes, there's a company, but
409
00:27:33.319 --> 00:27:37.079
who was the person involved? What
did that look like for them? What
410
00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:41.880
would be the impact of not solving
this problem. So actually telling a real
411
00:27:41.079 --> 00:27:45.670
story. Then, in terms of
best practices for solution sections, I think
412
00:27:45.750 --> 00:27:49.269
where people get hung up is they
want to talk about the what's so bad
413
00:27:49.470 --> 00:27:53.589
they forget about the why. So
I'll use SEO agencies, is they're kind
414
00:27:53.589 --> 00:27:56.910
of my whipping boys for these things, because somebody do so much for this
415
00:27:57.029 --> 00:28:00.500
wrong. But but for an agency
that tendencies to want to have this bullet
416
00:28:00.539 --> 00:28:03.619
point list of like we did this
thing and this thing, I'm this thing,
417
00:28:03.660 --> 00:28:07.299
I'm this thing, and they treat
it like this list of capabilities,
418
00:28:07.339 --> 00:28:11.220
which like. Again, that has
its place if you're dealing with someone who
419
00:28:11.339 --> 00:28:15.930
just needs the facts. But I
don't hire agencies or individuals because of what
420
00:28:17.210 --> 00:28:19.769
they can do. More often than
I'm hiring them because of why they do
421
00:28:19.930 --> 00:28:25.089
it that way or how they think
about it. So solution sections should communicate
422
00:28:25.210 --> 00:28:26.720
not only what was done, but
why did you do it that way?
423
00:28:26.759 --> 00:28:30.319
Why was that the approach? Taking
it back to the challenge, okay,
424
00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:36.039
we've established there is a problem.
There was something painful. Why this rope
425
00:28:36.079 --> 00:28:38.359
dissolved it and not another one?
What was the thinking? But that piece
426
00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:41.150
gets admitted. So you want to
make sure that's baked in and then we've
427
00:28:41.190 --> 00:28:45.109
touched on this already, but results
sections. Too often they're just like trophy
428
00:28:45.190 --> 00:28:49.869
cases where it's like Tut, like
here's the big metric the end, and
429
00:28:51.029 --> 00:28:53.509
they don't get into that impact right. One of my favorite examples of this
430
00:28:53.589 --> 00:28:57.299
comes from one of our stories where
we were dealing it was an efficiency thing.
431
00:28:57.460 --> 00:29:03.779
So automated a part of the administrative
the office administrator's life and saved a
432
00:29:03.859 --> 00:29:07.539
bunch of time. But instead of
just stopping at they save this many hours
433
00:29:07.579 --> 00:29:10.930
per week. Because we ran a
great interview and we asked what that meant
434
00:29:11.009 --> 00:29:14.049
for the individual. She was able
to tell us I don't have to run
435
00:29:14.089 --> 00:29:18.289
around the office chasing people for paychecks
anymore. That's a sexy, specific example
436
00:29:18.450 --> 00:29:22.250
that someone in that role is going
to sit and read and go, Holy
437
00:29:22.329 --> 00:29:25.720
Crap, I'm running around the office
right. People don't tend to think in
438
00:29:25.720 --> 00:29:27.720
terms of, like, I wish
my job was fifty percent more efficient.
439
00:29:29.000 --> 00:29:30.599
They tend to think in terms of
I wish I didn't have to chase people
440
00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:36.039
around the office for paychecks. So
getting that level of specificity in all sections,
441
00:29:36.519 --> 00:29:38.990
that tells a much better story as
well. Then the last one.
442
00:29:40.470 --> 00:29:42.630
Have a called action. Please have
a call to action. There are situations
443
00:29:42.750 --> 00:29:48.589
where one isn't called for. I
mentioned earlier carthub drives adds to landing pages
444
00:29:48.630 --> 00:29:51.789
without calls action, which is unheard
of. But for them it's just trust
445
00:29:51.829 --> 00:29:53.500
building. They're not trying to make
the sale right then and there. But
446
00:29:53.660 --> 00:29:57.380
depending on your application, you want
to give the person a really easy way
447
00:29:57.500 --> 00:30:02.140
to stratch the edge that your study
hopefully just made them aware of. So
448
00:30:02.460 --> 00:30:06.380
have a relevant, contextual call to
action, not just a big contact US
449
00:30:06.420 --> 00:30:08.730
button. But Hey, do you
want to solve a similar pain to what
450
00:30:08.849 --> 00:30:11.529
was just in this story your's?
How To do it? Do you want
451
00:30:11.529 --> 00:30:14.930
the outcome to stust discussing the story
of yours? How To do it?
452
00:30:15.049 --> 00:30:17.849
So that's a lot of me talking, but that that when it comes to
453
00:30:17.890 --> 00:30:19.529
running. That's what we're trying to
encourage our writers to think about. It
454
00:30:19.890 --> 00:30:25.519
human stories, real outcomes, real
states, as specific as possible, and
455
00:30:25.640 --> 00:30:30.000
I loved your focus on this.
Is Not something you can do just following
456
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:33.119
a checklist like. You have to
approach this as a journalist. You have
457
00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:37.349
to really approach this. Is trying
to turn the person you're interviewing into a
458
00:30:37.390 --> 00:30:41.029
storyteller. And it's your job,
is the interviewer, to elicit those stories
459
00:30:41.069 --> 00:30:44.430
and ask the questions that are going
to bring those stories to bear. And
460
00:30:44.470 --> 00:30:48.029
so not thinking about it in this
mechanical way like you dispelled a few minutes
461
00:30:48.069 --> 00:30:52.940
ago, but really pressing into understanding
that this is a human telling a human
462
00:30:52.980 --> 00:30:56.900
story and it matters that the girl
doesn't have to go around or the guy,
463
00:30:56.900 --> 00:30:59.779
I don't know what who who was
in the story has doesn't have to
464
00:30:59.819 --> 00:31:03.779
go on the office trying to track
down people's paychecks anymore. That matters and
465
00:31:03.940 --> 00:31:06.490
it's going to make the story more
powerful. But if you don't ask the
466
00:31:06.529 --> 00:31:08.609
question to get there, you're never
going to get that. So I love
467
00:31:08.730 --> 00:31:11.289
that you walked through this and in
the level of detail that you did,
468
00:31:11.329 --> 00:31:15.410
Joe. Now I want to talk. I want to shift the conversation into
469
00:31:15.769 --> 00:31:19.240
so you've done the great interview,
you've written it well. You follow these
470
00:31:19.279 --> 00:31:23.839
best practices now and you talked about
this a little bit earlier in the year
471
00:31:23.960 --> 00:31:26.799
or are but I want to really
die deep in here. is in it
472
00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:32.039
like enabling your sales team with these
resources, not just slapping it up on
473
00:31:32.119 --> 00:31:34.269
your resource page, but really enabling
your your sales team. We're talking to
474
00:31:34.349 --> 00:31:37.390
a lot of people that are.
They've got, you know, a relatively
475
00:31:37.430 --> 00:31:42.470
large bb sales team of a's and
SDRs. How do you enable your sales
476
00:31:42.470 --> 00:31:48.299
team with these resources? I liked
what you said about running ad campaigns directly
477
00:31:48.500 --> 00:31:52.140
to, like what Carthook does,
directly to the case study, but around
478
00:31:52.259 --> 00:31:57.420
sales enablement and really making sure your
sellers or equipped the with these and trained
479
00:31:57.500 --> 00:32:00.259
on these stories. Like talk to
us about what you've seen companies do the
480
00:32:00.339 --> 00:32:04.730
right way as it relates to that. So I think so much comes down
481
00:32:04.769 --> 00:32:08.410
to considering the situation that the salesperson
is in. If I am doing cold
482
00:32:08.450 --> 00:32:14.170
outreach with a five thousand word asset, I don't have the right tool for
483
00:32:14.369 --> 00:32:16.640
the job, you know, or
you're putting a lot of pressure on their
484
00:32:16.759 --> 00:32:21.440
pitch to get someone to open that
case study in the first place to do
485
00:32:21.640 --> 00:32:23.759
the work. And so the first
thing is thinking, okay, for our
486
00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:29.599
sales team, what level of awareness
are the people that they're they're reaching out
487
00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:31.750
to or interacting with? Where they
at in that process? You should have
488
00:32:31.829 --> 00:32:36.910
a different format for the different where
in a as levels. The sales guy
489
00:32:36.990 --> 00:32:40.509
doing cold outreach needs a different asset. Same story, different way of presenting
490
00:32:40.549 --> 00:32:44.339
it. Maybe it's a slide deck, maybe it's a one page or maybe
491
00:32:44.339 --> 00:32:46.539
it's just the facts. To Open, no crack, open the door,
492
00:32:46.740 --> 00:32:50.819
to get permission to share the whole
thing. The guy doing that or the
493
00:32:50.859 --> 00:32:53.660
Gal doing that needs a totally different
type of format, even with the same
494
00:32:53.700 --> 00:32:58.849
story. Then you know the woman
at the bottom of the funnel, who
495
00:32:59.210 --> 00:33:01.369
you know. She's trying to convert
someone who's right, close, right.
496
00:33:01.930 --> 00:33:05.609
The other thing to think about,
too, is like everybody, and this
497
00:33:05.769 --> 00:33:10.849
is something that we're working on now, everybody gravitates historically to the PDF format,
498
00:33:12.289 --> 00:33:14.759
and I honestly there's a lot of
reasons for that. It's like a
499
00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:20.000
tangible thing. It can be printed, it can be designed without web resources.
500
00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:22.279
So I think that it's become the
default, not because it's the best,
501
00:33:22.759 --> 00:33:27.750
but because it's easy to do and
to do quickly. But thinking about
502
00:33:27.750 --> 00:33:31.150
okay, for salespeople, like how
do you make it easy for them to
503
00:33:31.269 --> 00:33:35.670
share? How do you make it
easy for them to track whether or not
504
00:33:35.750 --> 00:33:37.589
someone has opened and looked at this
thing? I mean there are tools like
505
00:33:37.750 --> 00:33:43.099
docs end and there are tools to
send out PDFs, but the format of
506
00:33:43.180 --> 00:33:46.140
this thing not only in length,
like we use the bite snack meal kind
507
00:33:46.180 --> 00:33:50.500
of mentality. In terms of like, depending on the awareness level, will
508
00:33:50.500 --> 00:33:52.700
some them a very short, medium
size for quite long asset, depending on
509
00:33:52.740 --> 00:33:55.890
what they're ready for. But can
you do the same thing with an html
510
00:33:57.009 --> 00:34:00.369
format of that or a video?
You know of that, and so it's
511
00:34:00.369 --> 00:34:04.049
about considering the format that's going to
be most effective for the salesperson in the
512
00:34:04.130 --> 00:34:07.130
context through it. That's like a
very wordy way of saying it, but
513
00:34:07.250 --> 00:34:09.800
that's kind of it is consider content
for them. The other thing for companies
514
00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:14.960
that start to do this well is
to arm sales teams to understand what they
515
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:19.440
have in their holster in terms of
like what types of stories do we have?
516
00:34:20.239 --> 00:34:22.440
This is why, for example,
increasingly, and I think the market
517
00:34:22.519 --> 00:34:27.110
hasn't caught up to it yet.
So you know, the markets not already.
518
00:34:27.429 --> 00:34:30.550
But sometimes, let's say you have
one big win, maybe you should
519
00:34:30.550 --> 00:34:34.150
be capturing that story from different perspectives
within the company. Because if I'm selling
520
00:34:34.190 --> 00:34:37.070
to a CTEO, he cares about
or she cares about different things than,
521
00:34:37.579 --> 00:34:43.260
you know, selling to a CMO. So the individual that you're reaching out
522
00:34:43.340 --> 00:34:46.699
to, whether it's, you know, the CEO of the entire company or
523
00:34:46.739 --> 00:34:52.460
whether it's the CTEO or whether it's
the practitioner on the ground or the cleaning
524
00:34:52.500 --> 00:34:54.610
guy or whatever it might be.
You know, whoever you're reaching out to,
525
00:34:54.610 --> 00:34:59.090
you might have different levels of awareness, but they might also have different
526
00:34:59.090 --> 00:35:02.449
pain points or different desired outcomes.
So you want to make sure that you're
527
00:35:02.449 --> 00:35:07.519
equipping sales people to give their right
asset to the right person as well.
528
00:35:07.800 --> 00:35:10.800
Maybe you have role based studies based
on the same story. So it's about
529
00:35:10.840 --> 00:35:15.639
considering that context, the type of
role you're reaching out to, the awareness
530
00:35:15.679 --> 00:35:21.989
level and then putting together assets that
make sense for that situation. I love
531
00:35:22.030 --> 00:35:24.070
it. I love that you touch
on both of those things. One you
532
00:35:24.190 --> 00:35:29.510
need to be thinking about how you're
going to repurpose the asset and that that
533
00:35:29.909 --> 00:35:32.869
can bite sized piece, the snackable
piece and then the meal piece. I
534
00:35:32.989 --> 00:35:37.500
think is a great way to get
your head around the fact that you need
535
00:35:37.579 --> 00:35:42.019
different formats because your sales people are
talking to people at different stages in the
536
00:35:42.179 --> 00:35:45.500
in the buyers journey, and the
person that's just getting to know who you
537
00:35:45.579 --> 00:35:49.460
are is probably not going to read
the five thousand word piece of content.
538
00:35:49.619 --> 00:35:52.409
So I love that you test on
that. But I also love that you
539
00:35:52.489 --> 00:35:54.969
then talked about the fact that you
you need to know yourself. People need
540
00:35:55.010 --> 00:35:59.170
to know that they have these guns
in the holster, like if they don't,
541
00:35:59.329 --> 00:36:01.809
they don't know that these things are
there, then they can't use them,
542
00:36:01.929 --> 00:36:07.079
and so that education piece makes perfect
sense to me. Why? Why
543
00:36:07.159 --> 00:36:10.719
that's something that it makes sense?
Why companies aren't doing it? Because it's
544
00:36:10.760 --> 00:36:15.440
hard, like communication is hard and
you never think that you're communicating. You
545
00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:19.309
always think you're communicating enough and there
could always be more communication. So I
546
00:36:19.469 --> 00:36:22.150
love that you brought that up.
I want to have some this whole thing
547
00:36:22.190 --> 00:36:25.349
up. Joel I, you've shared
so many best practices. This is,
548
00:36:25.510 --> 00:36:30.030
in a been incredibly dial with piece
of content. Let's go back to like
549
00:36:30.230 --> 00:36:36.820
Thirtyzero, Thirtyzero Square foot view.
If there's one big idea that you like
550
00:36:36.980 --> 00:36:39.659
man for the be tob marketer listening
to this around case studies, this is
551
00:36:39.739 --> 00:36:43.340
the thing I harp on the most, or this is the thing that I
552
00:36:43.579 --> 00:36:46.809
really want to be to be marketer
listening to this to walk away with after
553
00:36:46.849 --> 00:36:51.409
hearing this episode, because if they
get this, a lot of the other
554
00:36:51.449 --> 00:36:53.369
stuff is going to is going to
come. What would you say that one
555
00:36:53.409 --> 00:36:58.170
thing is I mean there's there's lots
of I want to say, but I
556
00:36:58.170 --> 00:37:01.960
would I would kind of a says
like these are human story is they're not
557
00:37:02.199 --> 00:37:08.079
paid by numbers assets, they're not
just the sales collateral. These have the
558
00:37:08.199 --> 00:37:15.519
power to be really persuasive stories when
you give your team and your people and
559
00:37:15.639 --> 00:37:19.949
your process a chance to let them
be. And to do that you need
560
00:37:20.110 --> 00:37:22.070
to to play well with humans.
I mean, if you've got a great
561
00:37:22.070 --> 00:37:27.469
salesperson, ask her like what?
What questions are you getting all the time?
562
00:37:27.750 --> 00:37:30.380
What roles are you interacting with?
You need to have that in those
563
00:37:30.420 --> 00:37:36.820
internal human conversations surrounding you know how
things are happening. But then when it
564
00:37:36.940 --> 00:37:39.420
comes time to actually tell the story
or interview a person, when you stop
565
00:37:39.659 --> 00:37:45.130
seeing this end outcome as this like
paint by numbers asset and more of like
566
00:37:45.250 --> 00:37:49.889
a human story, I promise it
will influence the way you prep for calls,
567
00:37:50.050 --> 00:37:52.050
the way you run those calls,
will you tell those stories, the
568
00:37:52.170 --> 00:37:57.849
way you think about promoting these.
It sounds like a very pious guy who
569
00:37:57.969 --> 00:38:01.440
type of thing, but yes,
these are human stories and that should inform
570
00:38:01.519 --> 00:38:05.480
the way that they're put together.
I love it. Y'll, thank you
571
00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:08.239
so much for joining us. This
is again been an incredible piece of content.
572
00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:12.989
I'm really excited to to repurpose this
thing in a ton of different ways.
573
00:38:13.030 --> 00:38:15.230
Like you talked about repurposing case study. So if somebody listening to this,
574
00:38:15.269 --> 00:38:17.389
they want to connect with you,
they want to learn more about case
575
00:38:17.389 --> 00:38:21.469
studyboddy, what's the best way for
them to go about doing that? Yeah,
576
00:38:21.510 --> 00:38:23.750
so on the case study buddy front
you can learn all about our process
577
00:38:23.750 --> 00:38:29.900
or pricing or formats. There's loads
of samples a case study buddycom and we
578
00:38:30.139 --> 00:38:31.780
have a really you know, if
you just want to dip your toes in
579
00:38:31.820 --> 00:38:36.059
the water and kind of try these
R somef we've got a really efficient process.
580
00:38:36.099 --> 00:38:38.099
Our goal is to make these as
fast and friendly and fun to be
581
00:38:38.219 --> 00:38:42.530
part of as possible. So you
know, there's also a lot of blog
582
00:38:42.650 --> 00:38:45.489
posts and content there and we're working
now on while we've got kind of some
583
00:38:46.170 --> 00:38:50.369
downtime with everything happening in the world, on ramping that up. So lots
584
00:38:50.409 --> 00:38:52.530
of more, you know, informational
stuff and stuff that will help you do
585
00:38:52.690 --> 00:38:57.199
these better yourselves or adopt better men
tell these as a coming towards them.
586
00:38:57.800 --> 00:39:00.840
I'm happy to have people connect with
me on linkedin twitter. If you send
587
00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:04.800
me a message, I can't promise
I'll respond quickly, but I do always
588
00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:07.400
respawn, you know. So I'm
always happy to chat with people, and
589
00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:12.670
you know, not just about case
studies but the whole conversion side of things
590
00:39:12.710 --> 00:39:15.829
and and all of it. You
know, I think there's there's so much
591
00:39:15.869 --> 00:39:19.590
opportunity here. Wonderful, awesome,
Joe. Will again thank you so much
592
00:39:19.590 --> 00:39:22.829
for your time and I'm really excited
to see this thing go live. Yeah,
593
00:39:22.909 --> 00:39:30.099
cheers, thanks for having me.
I hate it when podcasts incessantly ask
594
00:39:30.179 --> 00:39:32.619
their listeners for reviews, but I
get why they do it, because reviews
595
00:39:32.659 --> 00:39:37.579
are enormously helpful when you're trying to
grow podcast audience. So here's what we
596
00:39:37.619 --> 00:39:39.489
decided to do. If you leave
a review for me to be growth in
597
00:39:39.530 --> 00:39:45.769
apple podcasts and email me a screenshot
of the review to James At sweetfish Mediacom,
598
00:39:45.130 --> 00:39:49.449
I'll send you a signed copy of
my new book, content based networking,
599
00:39:49.730 --> 00:39:52.769
how to instantly connect with anyone you
want to know. We get a
600
00:39:52.849 --> 00:39:54.280
review, you get a free book. We both win.