1252: 7 Pitfalls to Avoid When Scaling Up Your Startup w/ Mike McDerment

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.240 --> 00:00:08.589 Welcome back to be tob growth. I'm Logan lyles with sweet fish media. 2 00:00:08.750 --> 00:00:13.070 Today I'm joined by Mike McDermott. He's the cofounder and CEO over at fresh 3 00:00:13.109 --> 00:00:15.349 books. Mike, Welcome to the show. How's it going today, sir, 4 00:00:15.750 --> 00:00:20.149 Hey Logan, thank you. It's it is going in these covid times. 5 00:00:20.190 --> 00:00:25.219 I'm going from one chair in my home to another chair and not much 6 00:00:25.219 --> 00:00:29.739 further. Yeah, musical chairs. We gotta do some things to keep the 7 00:00:29.780 --> 00:00:33.460 blood flowing, keep that kind of change of pace and scenery a little bit 8 00:00:33.500 --> 00:00:35.890 going. I've been talking to some of our customers that have, you know, 9 00:00:36.009 --> 00:00:39.850 brought in a Sun lamp into their Home Office to get some get some 10 00:00:39.929 --> 00:00:43.689 vitamin D, Get some exposure. They're right, change things up a little 11 00:00:43.689 --> 00:00:46.649 bit. I was there's a very good idea. I was just look at 12 00:00:46.649 --> 00:00:49.210 you. Look a lot less pale than I do. That's so. Yes, 13 00:00:49.289 --> 00:00:53.759 I was thinking about Vitam indedious moments ago. Okay, awesome. Well, 14 00:00:53.840 --> 00:00:57.399 Mike, our conversation today is going to be about seven ways that you 15 00:00:57.600 --> 00:01:02.039 almost killed fresh books, or seven pitfalls that founders, the CEOS want to 16 00:01:02.119 --> 00:01:04.349 avoid as there as they're scaling up. Before we get into that little bit 17 00:01:04.349 --> 00:01:07.870 of context for today's conversation. Give us a little bit of background on yourself 18 00:01:07.950 --> 00:01:11.549 and what you in the fresh books team are up to these days. Yes, 19 00:01:11.629 --> 00:01:14.590 so I'm a founding CEO OF A, you know, sort of large 20 00:01:14.629 --> 00:01:18.390 and growing software platform. So my story is I started out I was running 21 00:01:18.390 --> 00:01:23.500 a small agency using word and excel to build my clients accidentally saved over M 22 00:01:23.540 --> 00:01:26.060 boy said there's got to be a better way and start a building a piece 23 00:01:26.099 --> 00:01:29.180 of software. That was over a decade ago. You know, since we 24 00:01:29.299 --> 00:01:32.579 started, over twenty million people used our software. We have paying customers over 25 00:01:32.579 --> 00:01:36.049 a hundred countries and the way to think about what we are it's just a 26 00:01:36.290 --> 00:01:40.769 ridiculous the easy to use in voicing and accounting software. So we don't really 27 00:01:40.890 --> 00:01:45.930 serve like restaurants and retail businesses. We serve really knowledge based business of a 28 00:01:45.930 --> 00:01:49.680 lot of create professionals, lawyers, it folks, marketers, those kinds of 29 00:01:51.280 --> 00:01:55.120 people. Yeah, and by virtue of focusing on on segments that have those 30 00:01:55.480 --> 00:01:57.840 similar kinds of needs across there the products really simple and easy to use. 31 00:01:57.959 --> 00:02:01.629 So we're number two in America for small best account stuffare. I guess that's 32 00:02:01.629 --> 00:02:05.390 the other notable item. Well, that's that. That's a bit of background. 33 00:02:05.430 --> 00:02:07.110 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, as I 34 00:02:07.349 --> 00:02:10.789 had up sales for our agency here at Sweet Fish, I I love the 35 00:02:10.909 --> 00:02:15.300 line that nothing happens until someone sells something. I've said that before in my 36 00:02:15.419 --> 00:02:19.379 sales career. But I was talking with our CEO as we were kind of 37 00:02:19.419 --> 00:02:23.620 going through our our invoicing and collections and and all these sorts of things that 38 00:02:23.699 --> 00:02:25.580 are, you know, less fun for salespeople to think about, it was 39 00:02:25.620 --> 00:02:30.729 like maybe I need to revise that previous statement. Nothing happens until someone pays 40 00:02:30.849 --> 00:02:35.889 something. So good that you guys are doing great work to enable that on 41 00:02:36.009 --> 00:02:38.810 the back end for a lot of different companies in a lot of different sectors. 42 00:02:38.129 --> 00:02:42.969 So let's jump in more to some of the pitfalls that that you want 43 00:02:43.009 --> 00:02:46.319 to help other founders and CEOS avoid in their own growth journey. I was 44 00:02:46.360 --> 00:02:50.560 checking out this article that you had written a while back. In the first 45 00:02:50.560 --> 00:02:53.759 one that you mentioned, was thinking that we had to move faster than we 46 00:02:53.879 --> 00:02:57.680 did. Tell us a little bit about this and the lessons learned over the 47 00:02:57.719 --> 00:03:01.110 years. Well, I'm a big fan of contrarian you know, sort of 48 00:03:01.189 --> 00:03:05.789 counsel and advice, and so you get lots of this like move fast and 49 00:03:05.909 --> 00:03:09.509 break things, bloody, bloody blood. But what I found when we were 50 00:03:09.590 --> 00:03:14.020 getting started and we said some pretty lean years to get going. We spent 51 00:03:14.060 --> 00:03:15.659 three and a half years my parents basement kind of getting things going. And 52 00:03:16.099 --> 00:03:19.659 you know, and if you're an entrepreneur at heart, sometimes you have a 53 00:03:19.699 --> 00:03:22.419 lot of ideas and there's a lot of different directions you might go in, 54 00:03:23.020 --> 00:03:27.099 and fear is kind of like a major a you know, sort of motivator, 55 00:03:27.139 --> 00:03:30.969 right, like you're concerned about getting crushed or what have you. So 56 00:03:30.370 --> 00:03:34.969 the point is I was always fearful we were moving too slowly, you know, 57 00:03:35.050 --> 00:03:38.050 I was always fearful bad guys were going to get us or whatever it 58 00:03:38.169 --> 00:03:44.960 was. But to some extent, when you're that size you are inherently going 59 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:49.319 to be moving faster and if you run in every direction at the same time, 60 00:03:49.560 --> 00:03:53.599 it's not so good. And so I think just being focused and discipline 61 00:03:53.639 --> 00:03:55.949 and knowing where you're going and pushing there as fast as you reasonably can, 62 00:03:57.430 --> 00:04:00.669 but not so fast that you're becoming counterproductive, I think, is the is 63 00:04:00.750 --> 00:04:03.629 that that kind of balance. That's what I was trying to hint at. 64 00:04:04.150 --> 00:04:08.750 Yeah, and that reminds me of one of our quotes that are a quote 65 00:04:08.789 --> 00:04:12.900 that we come back to as a team a lot as a fast scaling start 66 00:04:12.900 --> 00:04:16.100 up ourselves, and our founder and CEO is just an idea. Guy James 67 00:04:16.220 --> 00:04:20.220 just has idea is coming out as ears all the time, and and we 68 00:04:20.379 --> 00:04:25.089 come back to this quote from the four disciplines of execution, and I might 69 00:04:25.129 --> 00:04:28.490 not get it word for word, but it's there will always be an excess 70 00:04:28.529 --> 00:04:31.410 of great ideas. Then there is enough time to execute on them. And 71 00:04:31.490 --> 00:04:35.290 so you you have to learn to be selective and I like what you said. 72 00:04:35.810 --> 00:04:40.639 Know that when you are smaller you're going to be naturally moving pretty fast 73 00:04:40.680 --> 00:04:44.279 anyway. So don't let that fear kind of creep up on you. Now. 74 00:04:44.519 --> 00:04:47.360 You guys are all about the numbers, being an accounting software platform yourself, 75 00:04:47.439 --> 00:04:53.029 but one of the mistakes that you mentioned you wanted other founders to avoid, 76 00:04:53.430 --> 00:04:56.430 that you kind of fell into a bit, is placing too much faith 77 00:04:56.750 --> 00:04:59.750 in a spreadsheet. Tell us what you meant by that? Yeah, so, 78 00:04:59.790 --> 00:05:02.509 so, first off, I am a big fan of spreadsheets and using 79 00:05:02.550 --> 00:05:06.939 them to forward plan your business, and you know, the benefit is not 80 00:05:08.060 --> 00:05:13.259 having the spreadsheet. The benefit is the exercise and the scenario planning and the 81 00:05:13.379 --> 00:05:17.660 development of sort of assumptions and predictions on which you build your business. Okay, 82 00:05:17.740 --> 00:05:20.220 and so I'm a big fan of building a model on the revenue side 83 00:05:20.220 --> 00:05:24.850 and the cost side that looks looks forward and just understanding how that stuff works. 84 00:05:24.850 --> 00:05:27.649 And it can be very simple and most people's businesses it can just be 85 00:05:27.769 --> 00:05:30.850 very simple. We've really complex stuff now at fresh books, but you know, 86 00:05:30.930 --> 00:05:32.730 I think get go it can be very, very simple. And so 87 00:05:33.329 --> 00:05:38.079 with that in mind, you know, the thing that's true, and it's 88 00:05:38.120 --> 00:05:41.279 true like now we operate a company. It's you know, I don't know, 89 00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:45.920 four hundred people places everywhere, like as the the fun fact or CFO 90 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:48.519 shared with me and kind of captures the same sentiment as the minute you ship 91 00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:53.550 a budget for the next year, it's out a day. It's still right. 92 00:05:53.709 --> 00:05:56.269 It's like your best guest at the time and you move on. And 93 00:05:56.470 --> 00:05:59.790 so, you know, I think the thing about a spreadsheet is it can 94 00:06:00.029 --> 00:06:02.310 very much be the same way and so I think it's very important to do 95 00:06:02.470 --> 00:06:06.819 the exercise. But you may just find the assumptions you put in your models, 96 00:06:06.860 --> 00:06:12.180 whether they be revenue expenses were like maybe a very predictable expenses, but 97 00:06:12.259 --> 00:06:15.100 your revenues are hard to imagine, like you may end up getting to the 98 00:06:15.139 --> 00:06:17.649 same number but not the same way you thought you would, and so I 99 00:06:17.769 --> 00:06:21.930 think the exercise and the discipline very important. Just just sort of don't you 100 00:06:23.050 --> 00:06:26.050 know, don't believe it's going to be exactly how you thought it was. 101 00:06:26.730 --> 00:06:29.170 I love that. MIC. We have definitely seen that in the last two 102 00:06:29.209 --> 00:06:31.250 years I've been here on the sweet fish team, where we've gotten to the 103 00:06:31.290 --> 00:06:36.720 number but the components they're shifted greatly. We were off in in the details, 104 00:06:36.800 --> 00:06:40.240 but we ended up getting to the same place. So I can definitely 105 00:06:40.279 --> 00:06:44.560 attest to that from personal experience. Awesome. So number three that you had 106 00:06:44.680 --> 00:06:47.430 here was thinking we had to spend more than we did, and I really 107 00:06:47.670 --> 00:06:50.870 relate to this because it's sweet fish. Were a five year old company now 108 00:06:51.269 --> 00:06:55.509 and really the way I describe it as we did a lot on the brand 109 00:06:55.589 --> 00:06:59.269 side. I mean we're almost into thousane hundred episodes in this podcast and it 110 00:06:59.430 --> 00:07:01.980 is just been straight brand awareness and for the last two years I've kind of 111 00:07:01.980 --> 00:07:08.420 been owning sales and we really haven't had that middle gap of sophisticated to Managin 112 00:07:08.620 --> 00:07:12.740 for ourselves and so but yet we've built a business that is on track to 113 00:07:12.779 --> 00:07:15.209 hit the ink five thousand this year, possibly the five hundred if we get 114 00:07:15.209 --> 00:07:18.250 to where we're planning. So budgets being out of data is on my mind 115 00:07:18.329 --> 00:07:21.089 as well, and so I just look at that and I'm like, well, 116 00:07:21.129 --> 00:07:27.009 we've done a lot without a complete kind of sales and marketing typical function 117 00:07:27.170 --> 00:07:30.920 and funnels. It tell us a little bit about maybe what is similar or 118 00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:33.839 different, or kind of similar but different, in your own story. There 119 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:36.839 yeah, a couple things, I think you know. First of all, 120 00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:41.600 you know most businesses have one or two channels where they end up, you 121 00:07:41.720 --> 00:07:44.670 know, generating most of their business right, and so you know, when 122 00:07:44.670 --> 00:07:46.509 you build the plan you say well, we're going to use seven channels and 123 00:07:46.589 --> 00:07:49.069 what have you, and that's, you know, probably not the way to 124 00:07:49.110 --> 00:07:53.709 do it and the cost obviously expand considerably. You know better probably pick, 125 00:07:53.990 --> 00:07:56.430 you know, one or two when you're getting going scale them up and then 126 00:07:56.829 --> 00:07:59.660 and then work on others. I think the other thing is there is a 127 00:07:59.899 --> 00:08:03.259 when you sit with the spreadsheet, there's just a false comfort that comes with 128 00:08:03.339 --> 00:08:05.980 spending money that is, you know, like the more I spend, the 129 00:08:07.060 --> 00:08:09.740 more confident I am, when in reality it's probably like the more dollars you 130 00:08:09.779 --> 00:08:13.730 spend, a less confident you should be in every incremental dollar. And I 131 00:08:13.850 --> 00:08:16.329 think that's really the heart of this thing is, you know, hey, 132 00:08:16.410 --> 00:08:20.449 if you know how spending a hundred thousand dollars went last year and you're going 133 00:08:20.449 --> 00:08:24.930 to spend a hundred and fifty thousand dollars and you're probably doing pretty good. 134 00:08:24.930 --> 00:08:28.079 But if you jump that up to five hundred thousand dollars, you know it's 135 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:31.120 probably not going to go like you think. You know, is thing one. 136 00:08:31.319 --> 00:08:35.039 And in so you probably probably get more eginally less effective on all those 137 00:08:35.080 --> 00:08:37.559 incremental dollars. And so you can probably get, you know, sort of 138 00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:41.789 superior results by, you know, kind of staying a little leaner and closer 139 00:08:41.789 --> 00:08:46.470 to what you know and kind of building on it incrementally. And so anyways, 140 00:08:46.470 --> 00:08:48.629 I think some of those things in and around there are what that's trying 141 00:08:48.669 --> 00:08:52.789 to sort of get at. Yeah, that's a really great thing to keep 142 00:08:52.830 --> 00:08:54.740 in mind that, you know, when we make those big jumps in in 143 00:08:56.299 --> 00:08:58.460 the spend, whether that's marketing, sales, whatever it is, that's going 144 00:08:58.580 --> 00:09:01.860 into the growth of the business. Take a little bit smaller steps and you're 145 00:09:01.860 --> 00:09:05.100 going to be more efficient with those, with those dollars that mean. It's 146 00:09:05.100 --> 00:09:09.220 kind of like on the personal finance side, you're amazed with what you can 147 00:09:09.259 --> 00:09:11.330 do when you're on a tighter budget and you really get scrappy, and then 148 00:09:11.330 --> 00:09:15.850 when you know those times of a feast rather than famine, it's like wait, 149 00:09:15.970 --> 00:09:18.809 hold on a second, where did all that go right? Same sort 150 00:09:18.850 --> 00:09:22.529 of thing on the business side. Number four on your list of pitfalls to 151 00:09:22.610 --> 00:09:26.039 avoid to not kill your business while you're in the midst of growing. He's 152 00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:31.159 placing too much faith in consultants. Talk about your own experience there, maybe 153 00:09:31.279 --> 00:09:33.080 without, you know, naming names or throwing anyone under the bus, but 154 00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:37.960 just the general lessons learned right. I think for me, like I'd never 155 00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:41.230 worked anywhere else when we started this thing out, and so, you know, 156 00:09:41.269 --> 00:09:43.230 I hadn't gone and worked in a company. I didn't know how that 157 00:09:43.389 --> 00:09:46.470 worked. And then, you know, you meet some smart people, maybe 158 00:09:46.590 --> 00:09:50.629 worked at like Mackenzie or something like this, and you're getting some counsel for 159 00:09:50.750 --> 00:09:54.500 them, or maybe it's an advisor who you know comes from a different industry 160 00:09:54.539 --> 00:09:58.779 and doesn't know yours and what have you. I was just I was desperate 161 00:09:58.379 --> 00:10:03.179 for, you know, knowing what to do and I didn't know and I 162 00:10:03.220 --> 00:10:07.100 kind of knew that I didn't know and I felt at times I would start 163 00:10:07.139 --> 00:10:09.769 to be like, oh, like I'm really going to put my faith in 164 00:10:09.850 --> 00:10:13.889 what this other person says, because clearly their business smarter than me and they're 165 00:10:13.889 --> 00:10:18.409 talking about frameworks and leverage and, you know whatever. I almost it's almost 166 00:10:18.409 --> 00:10:20.720 back to the Buffett things, like you know the best way you understand. 167 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:26.679 But but I basically like they seemed like this source of confidence and knowledge and 168 00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:30.080 I knew I didn't have that because I was just trying to figure everything out 169 00:10:30.080 --> 00:10:33.840 at once. And at the end of the day, you know, most 170 00:10:33.879 --> 00:10:37.669 of the time I backed away from taking their advice and I kind of went 171 00:10:37.750 --> 00:10:39.870 with whatever I know, I thought I should do. But but it was 172 00:10:39.950 --> 00:10:46.830 a very like it was a very attractive prospect to just trust what they knew. 173 00:10:46.909 --> 00:10:50.259 But at the end of the day, mostly you know your customer, 174 00:10:50.899 --> 00:10:54.899 you know your market, you know your product and you're better offseeking your own 175 00:10:54.940 --> 00:10:58.620 counsel. So I like to be a big fan of like collecting input but 176 00:10:58.779 --> 00:11:01.419 seeking my own counsel. And so I'll ask lots of folks and they'll be 177 00:11:01.460 --> 00:11:03.179 like, oh, you didn't do what I said or you didn't agree with 178 00:11:03.419 --> 00:11:05.850 you, you still did the same thing, and I'm like well, yeah, 179 00:11:05.049 --> 00:11:07.529 you know, I got your input and it didn't change any of my 180 00:11:07.570 --> 00:11:11.090 assumptions and maybe a little deeper and understanding why I like them, but they 181 00:11:11.129 --> 00:11:15.169 didn't change them. Other Times like going to change my mind combined completely and 182 00:11:15.690 --> 00:11:18.169 reserve the right to do that. But yeah, I think you need to 183 00:11:18.169 --> 00:11:20.919 seek your own counsel at the end of the day. Yeah, absolutely. 184 00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:24.960 I think part of that is recognizing your own personality style. You know, 185 00:11:24.039 --> 00:11:28.519 one of the things on our team we've looked at as a leadership team and 186 00:11:28.600 --> 00:11:31.120 throughout our team at sweetfish is the any a grand personality types of their folks 187 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:33.789 are, you know, very end of Myers Briggs or whatever. But it 188 00:11:35.070 --> 00:11:37.750 no matter what kind of system or profile that you tend to look at, 189 00:11:39.149 --> 00:11:41.230 there are certain personality types that are like, okay, when I when I 190 00:11:41.309 --> 00:11:45.470 hear this advice, okay, that's Gospel. I hear this, that's Gospel. 191 00:11:45.629 --> 00:11:48.740 But you know, if you are an ambitious founder and you have ideas 192 00:11:48.779 --> 00:11:52.779 and you've been digging into the problem, then your gut is probably telling you, 193 00:11:52.820 --> 00:11:56.500 you know, take that advice, but take it with a grain of 194 00:11:56.539 --> 00:12:00.700 salt and at times it may just completely push you back to the way that 195 00:12:00.779 --> 00:12:03.009 you're thinking anyway, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. There's still good 196 00:12:03.090 --> 00:12:07.409 that came from that input. Right. Yeah, I'll just go and say 197 00:12:07.450 --> 00:12:11.330 I will take the gut of somebody who's been mucking about in a problem over 198 00:12:11.490 --> 00:12:15.960 the you know, sort of intelligence and business acumen of the professional any day. 199 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:18.440 All of that, Mike so well said. So the other thing on 200 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:24.440 your list was underestimating word of mouth in the early days, and that's something 201 00:12:24.519 --> 00:12:26.799 that you guys have kind of changed your approach, or at least you're thinking 202 00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:31.190 around these days. Tell us about that switch that happened for you. Well, 203 00:12:31.629 --> 00:12:33.990 you know, I think. To be honest, I think we caught 204 00:12:33.029 --> 00:12:37.870 this plan pretty quickly and it's why we were in business today and bitiness successful 205 00:12:37.870 --> 00:12:41.429 as we were. You know, we spent a lot of time on word 206 00:12:41.470 --> 00:12:43.460 of mouth. So, yes, we paid for advertising, and you know 207 00:12:43.580 --> 00:12:46.980 we still do, and you know and, but, but, but, 208 00:12:46.139 --> 00:12:50.539 but, we would also when we went to a conference where our customers were. 209 00:12:50.580 --> 00:12:52.779 We spent a lot of time around like hey, how do we? 210 00:12:54.299 --> 00:12:56.820 How do we get every what are you thinking? We're talking about us when 211 00:12:56.820 --> 00:12:58.649 they leave, right. And one of the knock on effects of that. 212 00:12:58.889 --> 00:13:03.250 And so you know, what I would say is, Hey, every business 213 00:13:03.529 --> 00:13:07.090 probably ought to start, instead of going maths, to go very niche or 214 00:13:07.129 --> 00:13:11.009 very segmented in their approach. And then, as soon as you go and 215 00:13:11.090 --> 00:13:13.159 do that and make that nice like almost as small as you possibly can, 216 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:18.679 if you go do a good job and you build real relationships with people and 217 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:22.639 you do interesting things that compel people to talk about you because you're relevant and 218 00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:24.720 interesting to them and they're small community, that will lead to a lot of 219 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:28.590 things. You know, sometimes it leads to media, people want to write 220 00:13:28.590 --> 00:13:31.149 about you. Sometimes it leads to, you know, random block posts, 221 00:13:31.149 --> 00:13:33.629 which is pretty much the same thing, so sort of earned media. And 222 00:13:33.710 --> 00:13:35.909 so there's the word of mouth of getting to them and having their real relationships 223 00:13:35.950 --> 00:13:39.470 and then there's the knock on effects from doing that. And you know, 224 00:13:39.669 --> 00:13:41.860 well, I've got a whole analogy for it, but I'll spare you and 225 00:13:41.940 --> 00:13:43.220 your audience that. I think you get the ID yea, I love it. 226 00:13:43.419 --> 00:13:48.740 I love your emphasis on relationships. You know our founders recent book, 227 00:13:48.820 --> 00:13:52.700 content based networking is all about. You know how nothing good happens in life 228 00:13:52.740 --> 00:13:56.929 or business without relationships. You can map it either with the direct line or 229 00:13:56.929 --> 00:14:01.330 maybe a little bit of a squiggling line, but those relationships and the other 230 00:14:01.490 --> 00:14:05.929 thing that you mentioned was going niche early. I mean we interact with so 231 00:14:05.009 --> 00:14:09.120 many marketing agencies that are partners of ours and and that sort of stuff, 232 00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:13.240 and we've seen those that really find their niche and go all in there. 233 00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:18.320 They might expand or that might shift, but those that try to be everything 234 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:22.960 to all people just inevitably struggle, and that that kind of leads us to 235 00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:26.590 point number six that you mentioned, that in the early days you kind of 236 00:14:26.629 --> 00:14:30.950 had this this fear that you couldn't get far enough or you couldn't get far 237 00:14:30.990 --> 00:14:35.710 enough fast enough without doing x, either taking that investment money or signing that 238 00:14:35.909 --> 00:14:39.460 deal or signing up that partner. But what a lot of people don't realize 239 00:14:39.460 --> 00:14:43.299 is that getting that thing, even though if that thing seems like the right 240 00:14:43.460 --> 00:14:46.379 thing, if there are things about it where you're kind of shoving US square 241 00:14:46.460 --> 00:14:50.460 peg in or around whole, they could actually take you backwards more than accelerate 242 00:14:50.500 --> 00:14:54.409 you those three steps. So saying no can actually help you move forward. 243 00:14:54.450 --> 00:14:58.850 Right, I do not have disagree. All Right, Mike. Number seven 244 00:14:58.889 --> 00:15:03.090 on your list was about doubting yourselves too much, and I think that, 245 00:15:03.649 --> 00:15:07.519 you know, we've kind of encountered this before in our own journey thinking about 246 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:13.200 okay, we've assembled teams and processes for producing podcasts and growing audiences, but 247 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:16.240 it's not necessarily rocket science. I mean they're there are things that other people 248 00:15:16.279 --> 00:15:20.720 have figured out and expertise that other people have, but we've had to stop 249 00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:22.909 and say, well, look how long it took us to kind of hone 250 00:15:24.149 --> 00:15:26.590 hone this process and whittle these things down and really get at humming. Did 251 00:15:26.629 --> 00:15:31.190 you guys kind of have that same sort of evolution kind of realizing your own 252 00:15:31.269 --> 00:15:37.379 expertise and removing some of that doubt of the expertise that you guys were gaining 253 00:15:37.580 --> 00:15:41.980 in the product you were developing and the customers that you were solving, in 254 00:15:41.100 --> 00:15:46.299 the problems that you were helping them tackle? Yeah, I think there's this. 255 00:15:46.659 --> 00:15:48.860 If you're really in a start up, you know, and it's sort 256 00:15:48.899 --> 00:15:52.409 of not well funded and a new area and you're like pioneering and all this 257 00:15:52.490 --> 00:15:58.769 stuff. There's just this overwhelming uncertainty on like every vector, like are we 258 00:15:58.850 --> 00:16:03.090 going to make it? You know, Halfas should we go? Well, 259 00:16:03.129 --> 00:16:07.000 that deal close, like, I mean it's just there's so many variables, 260 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:08.799 you know, and I think what comes out of that, as you know, 261 00:16:08.840 --> 00:16:11.159 especially if you haven't kind of done it before, can be and I 262 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:15.639 was making all this stuff up, doing everything from first principles for the first 263 00:16:15.679 --> 00:16:18.320 time, like that's a lot. And so it was just like, you 264 00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:22.029 know, kind of overwhelming albermilling feeling and uncertainly, in doubt. And so, 265 00:16:22.110 --> 00:16:25.309 yes, over time it seemed like, Oh, actually, we were 266 00:16:25.309 --> 00:16:29.549 kind of early and we were like years early, which ended up proving to 267 00:16:29.590 --> 00:16:30.990 be very helpful. So once we kind kind of breath and realize that, 268 00:16:32.110 --> 00:16:33.899 we had more confidence to keep going, which of the kinds of things you're 269 00:16:33.899 --> 00:16:37.740 hinting at. And Yeah, so I think, I think that the emotion 270 00:16:37.860 --> 00:16:41.580 of it all can get you to a very irrational place and I think it's 271 00:16:41.980 --> 00:16:45.220 important to have people who, either outside of your outfit or whatever it is, 272 00:16:45.860 --> 00:16:51.129 to kind of recalibrate yourself to you know, what's what. And so, 273 00:16:51.570 --> 00:16:52.529 you know, for me it was a lot of advisors and things like 274 00:16:52.570 --> 00:16:56.090 that. I need it, but because I was just running out of fear 275 00:16:56.529 --> 00:17:00.129 for for your you know, in to boil it down for so long and 276 00:17:00.289 --> 00:17:03.039 it kept me sharp and paranoid and you know, I learned a lot and 277 00:17:03.159 --> 00:17:06.160 explored a lot of ideas, but it was, you know, I think 278 00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:08.440 at the same time I probably could have smelled a few more roses. You 279 00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:12.720 probably could have made a few moves that were less counterproductive and reactionary and and 280 00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:15.190 you know, all of that would probably help, you know, sort of 281 00:17:15.430 --> 00:17:19.269 US ultimately get their faster. I love it. Just to wrap things up 282 00:17:19.309 --> 00:17:23.069 for folks, you know, we talked about seven pitfalls to avoid while you 283 00:17:23.190 --> 00:17:26.190 are scaling up your company. You know, don't think that you have to 284 00:17:26.349 --> 00:17:32.059 move faster all the time. Don't place too much faith in a spreadsheet. 285 00:17:32.059 --> 00:17:34.940 You've still got to know what's going on within the business. Take that process. 286 00:17:34.980 --> 00:17:38.019 I like the what you said. They're the exercise of putting that budget 287 00:17:38.019 --> 00:17:44.019 together and putting those models together. It is as important as what the data 288 00:17:44.059 --> 00:17:45.849 actually says. It's as we see, with things going on, models change. 289 00:17:47.170 --> 00:17:49.930 Things change very quickly at times in life, and especially in scaling and 290 00:17:51.049 --> 00:17:53.089 start up. Don't always think you need to spend more than you do. 291 00:17:53.450 --> 00:17:57.799 Think about incremental increases so that you're more efficient with that budget. Avoid the 292 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:03.759 trap of placing too much faith and consultants. And then the last three were 293 00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:07.519 don't underestimate word of mouth, don't always believe that that next thing that seems 294 00:18:07.559 --> 00:18:11.119 like the right move is definitely the one, and then just don't forget to 295 00:18:11.240 --> 00:18:15.950 to look at where are you running out of fear or doubt and recognize that 296 00:18:17.109 --> 00:18:18.910 for what it is and kind of pivot from their Mike. Anything else that 297 00:18:18.990 --> 00:18:22.109 you want to share with listeners today on this topic of you know, the 298 00:18:22.190 --> 00:18:26.339 pitfalls to avoid is as you're scaling up in the lessons that you've learned along 299 00:18:26.380 --> 00:18:30.779 the way, as you guys have been on a great trajectory at fresh books. 300 00:18:30.059 --> 00:18:33.460 I guess what I would say is that the thing that's not on the 301 00:18:33.539 --> 00:18:37.660 list because it's not one of the ways we almost killed it. Just don't 302 00:18:37.660 --> 00:18:40.700 give up. I love it. I love it. Min Well, for 303 00:18:40.859 --> 00:18:44.930 listeners, if you've really enjoyed this episode, another one that was a very 304 00:18:45.009 --> 00:18:48.410 similar conversation. Episode Nine hundred and twenty three. Three leadership lessons from bootstrapping 305 00:18:48.769 --> 00:18:53.849 to a hundred and fifty million with Thomas Corney over at Nextiva is definitely one 306 00:18:53.930 --> 00:18:56.960 that you want to check out. Check that out in the show. Note. 307 00:18:56.960 --> 00:19:00.000 Speaking of Next Steps, Mike, if anybody listening to this would like 308 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:03.240 to reach out to you, ask any questions or stay connected with you in 309 00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:07.519 the fresh books team, what's the best way for them to take next steps? 310 00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:10.150 There a couple thoughts. One is, if you want to get me 311 00:19:10.430 --> 00:19:12.869 at Mike mctermine on twitter, by all means Checho fresh books and if you're 312 00:19:12.910 --> 00:19:18.509 looking for something to bill your clients and manage your books in free trials can 313 00:19:18.509 --> 00:19:22.069 be had a fresh bookcom and you know, I think with that, you 314 00:19:22.109 --> 00:19:25.980 know we're up to a pretty good start. Thank you for having absolutely my 315 00:19:26.220 --> 00:19:29.380 thank you for being a fantastic guest on the show today. I really appreciate 316 00:19:29.420 --> 00:19:37.099 it. Thanks. I hate it when podcasts incessantly ask their listeners for reviews, 317 00:19:37.339 --> 00:19:40.769 but I get why they do it, because reviews are enormously helpful when 318 00:19:40.809 --> 00:19:42.849 you're trying to grow a podcast audience. So here's what we decided to do. 319 00:19:44.289 --> 00:19:47.369 If you leave a review for me to be growth and apple podcasts and 320 00:19:47.569 --> 00:19:51.970 email me a screenshot of the review to James at Sweet Fish Mediacom, I'll 321 00:19:51.970 --> 00:19:55.480 send you a signed copy of my new book, content based networking. How 322 00:19:55.559 --> 00:19:57.759 to instantly connect with anyone you want to know. We get a review, 323 00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:00.920 you get a free book. We both win.