1251: Demand Generation vs Lead Generation: What’s More Effective? w/ Chris Walker

WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:08.789 Welcome back to be to be growth. My name is James Carberry and I've 2 00:00:08.789 --> 00:00:12.830 joined today by Chris Walker, the CEO of refined labs A. Chris wrote 3 00:00:12.869 --> 00:00:15.789 something on Linkedin a few weeks ago that blew up. It looks like it 4 00:00:15.910 --> 00:00:19.550 got over one fifteen hundred people engaging with it and it was about the difference 5 00:00:19.550 --> 00:00:23.980 between demand generation and lead generation. So we're going to be diving into that 6 00:00:24.260 --> 00:00:27.699 in this episode. But, Chris, I have been consuming a ton of 7 00:00:27.780 --> 00:00:30.300 your content on Linkedin. It's clear that you know what the heck you're talking 8 00:00:30.300 --> 00:00:33.420 about when it comes to this stuff. But for listeners that maybe haven't heard 9 00:00:33.460 --> 00:00:37.929 your other episodes, you don't with Logan. You joined them on episode forty 10 00:00:37.969 --> 00:00:41.850 seven and again on episode thirty four. Give us a little background about how 11 00:00:41.850 --> 00:00:45.369 you came to know so much about revenue optimization and all the stuff that you've 12 00:00:45.409 --> 00:00:48.649 been writing about on Linkedin. Yeah, first off, that is a ton 13 00:00:48.729 --> 00:00:52.320 of episodes of Kudos to you and happy to be back for the third time 14 00:00:53.119 --> 00:00:56.200 and first time with you. The last two were with Logan. So it's 15 00:00:56.240 --> 00:00:59.399 an interesting career progression for me. I think a lot of people that would 16 00:00:59.399 --> 00:01:03.200 get into marketing would kind of like study something and then and then just jump 17 00:01:03.280 --> 00:01:07.069 in as a marketing associate or whatever and learned that way. And my career 18 00:01:07.150 --> 00:01:11.750 path was quite different. I started in in engineering and then moved to product 19 00:01:11.790 --> 00:01:14.790 management and product management. The companies I worked at. You own the PAN 20 00:01:14.829 --> 00:01:19.700 now for that product line everything. So working with engineering, pricing, positioning, 21 00:01:19.900 --> 00:01:23.780 distribution, promotion, all that different stuff, and then finally moved into 22 00:01:23.859 --> 00:01:29.180 a like a more traditional marketing downstream coms roll and for the past five years 23 00:01:29.180 --> 00:01:32.890 spent, I'm in the in the venture back kind of space with fast growing 24 00:01:33.049 --> 00:01:37.530 companies. But the foundation that I was created in the first, first five 25 00:01:37.650 --> 00:01:41.409 years of my career gave me just like a different perspective on how to do 26 00:01:41.609 --> 00:01:44.090 marketing. And so when I when I got to the company I was at, 27 00:01:44.170 --> 00:01:47.280 like they didn't have a demand Gen function. They didn't really know what 28 00:01:47.400 --> 00:01:51.359 the man Jed was. It was purely like sales driven in a traditional marketing 29 00:01:51.400 --> 00:01:53.280 company. I think a lot of people will resonate with this, like trade 30 00:01:53.319 --> 00:01:59.920 shows, brochures, sales enablement, like anything regarding helping the sales team. 31 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:02.590 Cell was basically the marketing team's job, and so I think that I do 32 00:02:04.069 --> 00:02:07.710 demande nation uniquely because nobody taught me how to do it. I built it 33 00:02:07.750 --> 00:02:12.669 inside of a company that didn't know how and so when I tested things like 34 00:02:13.189 --> 00:02:16.020 Nope, some people told me to write ebooks, and then I had some 35 00:02:16.099 --> 00:02:20.780 people write ebooks and I promoted them and I just watched and I watched that 36 00:02:20.900 --> 00:02:23.060 the close rates on the people that download the e books was less than point 37 00:02:23.139 --> 00:02:27.939 one percent and I just decided that that is not worth the effort. And 38 00:02:28.020 --> 00:02:30.370 then I started producing content and I started running ads on and so I just 39 00:02:30.449 --> 00:02:36.490 kind of, like, through experimentation and doing not listening to someone that told 40 00:02:36.530 --> 00:02:38.930 me what to do, created a very unique way of doing it that that 41 00:02:39.490 --> 00:02:42.849 I think a lot of people would benefit from. Yeah, and I think 42 00:02:42.849 --> 00:02:45.840 a lot of people are benefiting from it, based on the engagement that you're 43 00:02:45.840 --> 00:02:49.400 getting and just the way that you're slicing and dicing all of the different content. 44 00:02:49.479 --> 00:02:51.960 That's something that we're super passionate about here and I know that you and 45 00:02:52.039 --> 00:02:54.439 looking them talked about it before. So I won't I won't hit that point 46 00:02:54.520 --> 00:02:58.909 with a hammer too much, but just seeing seeing how you're you know, 47 00:02:59.150 --> 00:03:02.469 you're putting together these in person events, you're turning them into seven or eight 48 00:03:02.509 --> 00:03:07.469 different micro videos and it's just been really cool to see the stuff you've been 49 00:03:07.469 --> 00:03:10.949 doing with Gaetano and with, I think Justin Welsh. I watch the video 50 00:03:10.990 --> 00:03:14.699 the other day, so you're doing it right, man. So the things 51 00:03:14.740 --> 00:03:17.099 that I'm doing right now for myself in my own company I've been doing for 52 00:03:17.259 --> 00:03:22.020 brands for five years and so, like, I think that's a really interesting 53 00:03:22.300 --> 00:03:25.939 perspective. Is Like I was creating content and running ads on and distributed on 54 00:03:27.020 --> 00:03:29.210 social media. Like that's how I learned. I did it for a medical 55 00:03:29.250 --> 00:03:30.729 device company and that a couple other grows stage companies, and now I do 56 00:03:30.810 --> 00:03:35.169 it for myself and a lot of other companies. And another thing that it's 57 00:03:35.210 --> 00:03:38.889 been kind of interesting, I think this this while like hit people, is 58 00:03:38.930 --> 00:03:43.439 that it's super interesting that my company, with five people, produces more content 59 00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:46.919 every day than most fifty plus million dollar businesses. Yeah, and so I 60 00:03:47.000 --> 00:03:50.960 think, Pete, if you work in one of those companies, it's like 61 00:03:51.520 --> 00:03:54.159 maybe that's the way that that somebody finally says it to give you the push 62 00:03:54.199 --> 00:03:59.229 to try and think about how to do it, because, like it doesn't 63 00:03:59.229 --> 00:04:02.229 cost a lot, it just takes a commitment to the strategy and a dedication 64 00:04:02.349 --> 00:04:08.550 understand and patients, which a lot of companies do not support. A lot 65 00:04:08.590 --> 00:04:12.340 of companies. If if I started doing this what I'm doing right now, 66 00:04:12.379 --> 00:04:15.259 which was I started doing it back in like, I don't know, April 67 00:04:15.259 --> 00:04:18.699 or July on Linkedin, and most executives would have shut it down before it 68 00:04:18.860 --> 00:04:23.339 ever had the chance to get the results that it's bringing today. And the 69 00:04:23.379 --> 00:04:27.850 funny thing about like what's happening right now is that you carry it with you, 70 00:04:28.209 --> 00:04:30.529 like the twenty Onezero followers that I have that I'm super grateful that they 71 00:04:30.569 --> 00:04:34.290 get a lot of benefit out of the content. Like one day that might 72 00:04:34.329 --> 00:04:40.120 be a hundred and when that is a hundred, like I've seen the impact 73 00:04:40.279 --> 00:04:44.920 scale in a different way than running ads on an ebook ever would. Yeah, 74 00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:48.040 and so, yeah, I just I really want to push people to 75 00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:54.310 challenge themselves on the way that they've been doing things and if there's a better 76 00:04:54.350 --> 00:04:58.069 way. One of the another just detail that I that I saw is that 77 00:04:58.389 --> 00:05:01.310 we're running the ebook campaigns. The goal of running content is for people to 78 00:05:01.389 --> 00:05:05.069 consume it, and so we were running ebook campaigns, running paid ads. 79 00:05:05.149 --> 00:05:11.180 People were downloading the EBOOKS, sometimes from like ten dollars or registration that they 80 00:05:11.220 --> 00:05:14.500 would get pushed from facebook or Linkedin in to help spot run through on a 81 00:05:14.500 --> 00:05:17.980 nation, deliver the content by email and then when you actually look at the 82 00:05:18.019 --> 00:05:20.930 clip throughs in the email and the consumption of the ebooks next, and that 83 00:05:21.089 --> 00:05:26.170 like ten percent click through, so like one out of ten that's you're actually 84 00:05:26.209 --> 00:05:28.610 paying for is actually even getting to the EBOOK. And then I can look 85 00:05:28.649 --> 00:05:30.970 at the consumption like they're not actually consuming it. So you just paying a 86 00:05:31.050 --> 00:05:35.160 lot of money to collect email addresses. Yep. And so yeah, really 87 00:05:35.240 --> 00:05:40.399 hoping that if you haven't audited that entire process, because I added enough to 88 00:05:40.439 --> 00:05:43.519 ask companies, I know that most companies are doing it that way. If 89 00:05:43.560 --> 00:05:46.759 you haven't looked at the data for those couple key metrics that I just pointed 90 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:49.029 out, I'd encouraged you to do it and it might take it in a 91 00:05:49.069 --> 00:05:53.310 different direction than where you're going right now. So we're going to get into 92 00:05:53.350 --> 00:05:57.990 that lead Gen verse to Manjin Conversation in the second but you touched on something 93 00:05:58.069 --> 00:06:00.029 there. That's I mean a lot of what we're building here around our collective 94 00:06:00.069 --> 00:06:04.540 show offering has to do exactly with what you're saying and the thing that I've 95 00:06:04.579 --> 00:06:10.779 been noticing is in your case, for example, you have a very distinct 96 00:06:10.939 --> 00:06:15.180 perspective. You've got a unique way of thinking about how marketing works, how 97 00:06:15.620 --> 00:06:19.129 revenue like optimization should work. You take a stand on things. Are The 98 00:06:19.250 --> 00:06:25.290 companies that you're working with? Is it typically the CEO? Is it usually 99 00:06:25.329 --> 00:06:29.250 their CMO, like? Are you building the strategy around a single person, 100 00:06:29.610 --> 00:06:34.040 or are you looking at multiple executives in the organization and building content around each 101 00:06:34.040 --> 00:06:38.680 of them as as individuals and like, and picking out what are the things 102 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:43.480 that that they're doing differently or the things that they're saying that are going to 103 00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:46.920 get the kind of reaction that your content has been getting on Linkedin? Yeah, 104 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:50.269 so, so it's funny. Predominantly we market through the brand, through 105 00:06:50.310 --> 00:06:55.589 the logo, not true, not through a human and you can do the 106 00:06:55.670 --> 00:07:00.189 exact same thing, like a logo can have the exact same impact and thought 107 00:07:00.230 --> 00:07:05.220 leadership, arguably more than one single person and it's architected the right way. 108 00:07:05.620 --> 00:07:12.699 There are certain scenarios where the CEO has a specific perspective or an amount of 109 00:07:12.819 --> 00:07:16.329 credibility based on their past career experience, where they can speak in that manner 110 00:07:16.490 --> 00:07:19.569 and we in. When those cases happen, we certainly take advantage of it 111 00:07:19.649 --> 00:07:24.250 and it works. On linkedin we architect strategies for executives that are similar to 112 00:07:24.329 --> 00:07:27.689 what I do and see great results. But for the most part it's the 113 00:07:28.089 --> 00:07:33.480 brand, and so I think that people that that get confused that you must 114 00:07:33.519 --> 00:07:36.800 go through personal brands in order for this type of stuff to happen. Like 115 00:07:38.519 --> 00:07:41.800 I think in my experience there it actually works better when it comes through a 116 00:07:41.879 --> 00:07:45.750 brand because you can weverage a lot of different people and there's like a combination 117 00:07:45.829 --> 00:07:48.990 right. So, like if you're going to interview people as a brand and 118 00:07:49.550 --> 00:07:54.350 you're going to go and interview thought leaders or customers or whatever like, you 119 00:07:54.430 --> 00:07:57.910 might have one single interview that starts to attract attention and you can start to 120 00:07:57.990 --> 00:08:01.420 siphon that out into an own personal brand. But you could arguably, like 121 00:08:01.819 --> 00:08:07.100 a billion dollar company that's selling into ten verticals, should have ten hosts and 122 00:08:07.180 --> 00:08:11.019 host ten shows, but they host zero shows with zero hosts. You're exactly 123 00:08:11.100 --> 00:08:13.810 right. That's really what we've been doing, creating the brand for each of 124 00:08:15.209 --> 00:08:18.170 our different collective shows. So be tob sales show, be to be gross 125 00:08:18.170 --> 00:08:22.329 show. We've got multiple hosts for those shows. So we're really building individual 126 00:08:22.410 --> 00:08:26.920 personal brands under the umbrella of the show at a high level. And the 127 00:08:28.040 --> 00:08:31.879 reason we call it collective thought leadership is because you're leaning on the the collection 128 00:08:33.240 --> 00:08:37.039 of all of those different points of view and thoughts to actually go a whole 129 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:39.399 lot further, a whole lot faster, because it's not just you climbing a 130 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:45.070 mountain by yourself. You've got six, seven, eight other cohosts that are 131 00:08:45.110 --> 00:08:48.710 also lifting and the banner of that show and the content that they're bringing to 132 00:08:48.789 --> 00:08:52.629 the table as well. So we so far it's been going really, really 133 00:08:52.629 --> 00:08:54.230 well. But that's interesting. I have not heard a lot of people talk 134 00:08:54.230 --> 00:09:01.379 about the idea of the brand itself being more powerful than a personal brand. 135 00:09:01.860 --> 00:09:05.019 Yeah, that's really interesting perspective. I think a lot of people, at 136 00:09:05.059 --> 00:09:07.700 least if they're really pay attention and linkedin. The reason that people probably think 137 00:09:07.700 --> 00:09:11.250 that way is personal profiles over index on Linkedin, over the many pages. 138 00:09:11.649 --> 00:09:16.250 The reason being is that there's a couple core reasons in the dynamics the platform 139 00:09:16.289 --> 00:09:22.250 where that happens. One is that companies cannot go and proactively make connections. 140 00:09:22.450 --> 00:09:26.200 They must it's reactive followers it's hard to get a lot of followers. The 141 00:09:26.360 --> 00:09:30.399 easiest way for a person to get more followers to go and connect with a 142 00:09:30.440 --> 00:09:31.679 bunch of people and then you have more followers and more people see the content 143 00:09:31.720 --> 00:09:35.679 and the snowball starts working. Companies can't do that. The second thing is 144 00:09:35.720 --> 00:09:41.470 that I just believe, just experience at the Algorithm deprioritizes company posts right now. 145 00:09:41.549 --> 00:09:46.509 That might change over time, but if you're in like a heavy content 146 00:09:46.669 --> 00:09:52.139 marketing, content driven brand, corporate brand like, you should be running paid 147 00:09:52.259 --> 00:09:56.460 like linked in. If one distribution channel. There are a lot of channels 148 00:09:56.580 --> 00:10:01.659 right. So like if you're running content email, facebook, ads, instagram, 149 00:10:01.700 --> 00:10:05.539 story adds, linked in ads, linked in organic, through employees profiles, 150 00:10:05.139 --> 00:10:09.529 podcast, Youtube, like, all those different places are in play. 151 00:10:09.769 --> 00:10:15.250 I do believe that personal brands over index on Linkedin Organic, but that is 152 00:10:15.330 --> 00:10:18.090 not the same dynamic across all those other channels. So do you advise that 153 00:10:18.250 --> 00:10:26.159 companies put dollars on their company Linkedin pit like running it? Because I know 154 00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:30.240 you talk a lot of about just putting dollars behind content and not necessarily having 155 00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:31.519 a called action behind it. We're going to get into that a little bit 156 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:35.029 when we talk about the difference between Leagen and to Manson. But do you 157 00:10:35.230 --> 00:10:39.029 advise companies to do that on Linkedin, even though it is such an expensive 158 00:10:39.029 --> 00:10:43.269 ad platform? There's no black and white answer to this. I think there's 159 00:10:43.269 --> 00:10:46.269 a lot of different variables that play into it, just like your overall revenue 160 00:10:46.470 --> 00:10:50.899 efficiency, the average contract value of your product, who you're trying to reach. 161 00:10:52.019 --> 00:10:54.220 Like there's a lot of companies we don't do any advertisement and linkedin because 162 00:10:54.220 --> 00:10:58.379 facebook works so much better and it's ten times, ten to twenty times less 163 00:10:58.379 --> 00:11:03.700 expensive in other copy, like in other companies. If you're selling to crows 164 00:11:03.740 --> 00:11:07.409 at companies that are fifty, two, two hundred employees that also used tablow, 165 00:11:07.210 --> 00:11:11.250 then you might want to use linkedin instead, right, and so I 166 00:11:11.289 --> 00:11:13.210 think it really depends on whether or not you can target them in other places 167 00:11:13.289 --> 00:11:18.490 more effectively for less cost. But in general, like the thesis is, 168 00:11:18.759 --> 00:11:26.519 we use paid media predominantly to distribute content, not to drive conversions, because 169 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:30.799 then the conversions that you do get happen organic or direct traffic and there's way 170 00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:33.909 more high quality and you create brand awareness through it and all the other things 171 00:11:33.909 --> 00:11:35.629 that we talked about, and so that's a strategy that I've been using for 172 00:11:35.710 --> 00:11:39.470 five years. I go in an audit companies that are doing it the other 173 00:11:39.509 --> 00:11:41.190 way. I just know this way works better. Yeah, yeah, so 174 00:11:41.470 --> 00:11:46.230 before we get into which one you know, you think is is more effective, 175 00:11:46.549 --> 00:11:48.860 which I think we've already kind of let the Gat bag in communicating that. 176 00:11:50.019 --> 00:11:54.460 But how do you how do you define both lead generation and demand generation? 177 00:11:54.500 --> 00:11:56.580 Yeah, so I've been talking about the A lot and I've gotten a 178 00:11:56.620 --> 00:12:01.220 lot of great questions on posts or videos or love of Qa's that we're doing, 179 00:12:01.259 --> 00:12:05.090 and so I've tried to really figure out how the most simple and effective 180 00:12:05.090 --> 00:12:07.370 way to communicate this is. And, when it comes down to it, 181 00:12:07.529 --> 00:12:11.169 the way that I've found this resonating the most people right now is is it 182 00:12:11.289 --> 00:12:16.440 comes down to what is your intent as a marketer? Is your intent to 183 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:20.440 create a contact that then your sales people can sell to? That's Legen, 184 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:26.320 or is your intent to educate people or great value for people which then drives 185 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:31.230 awareness of your brand, your company, your product in future consideration of what 186 00:12:31.350 --> 00:12:35.990 you do? I consider that demand JEN and so and and I would argue 187 00:12:35.029 --> 00:12:41.350 that the best legen happens because of good demandion. HMM, like a legion 188 00:12:41.710 --> 00:12:46.620 is a is an output of good demandain not the endpoint, if that makes 189 00:12:46.700 --> 00:12:50.299 sense, and so that's kind of the difference that I see. I hope 190 00:12:50.340 --> 00:12:52.820 that like work. But if you have a fall question. Yeah, yeah, 191 00:12:52.899 --> 00:12:56.299 so what would be some activities or some examples of each of those two 192 00:12:56.820 --> 00:13:01.330 just allow folks to see what you're saying even even more clearly? Yeah, 193 00:13:01.409 --> 00:13:03.690 one hundred percent. So I'll just break down like you can. You can 194 00:13:05.090 --> 00:13:09.610 do the same tactic and have the thing be eater, legender demansion. So 195 00:13:09.649 --> 00:13:13.799 I'll give you an example. A lot of a lot of companies like to 196 00:13:13.879 --> 00:13:18.559 run field marketing events, like I've been to some ABM company invites me to 197 00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:22.399 a nice restaurant for a lunch and where right, and so I show up 198 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:26.360 to the lunch and warns I have free time. It's nice and basically it's 199 00:13:26.440 --> 00:13:35.509 a educational pitch of their product or category and then right afterwards in account executives 200 00:13:35.549 --> 00:13:39.230 following up with me. That's Lean Jin okay, said, expensive way to 201 00:13:39.269 --> 00:13:43.379 do Legen. The alternative would be we do like I would consider a similar 202 00:13:43.500 --> 00:13:48.580 activity, which is a field marketing event where I invite a guest and I 203 00:13:48.620 --> 00:13:54.779 talked about something that those people care about my interview and then we don't follow 204 00:13:54.820 --> 00:13:58.370 up or use those leads to try and sell them something, but instead we 205 00:13:58.649 --> 00:14:03.250 film the event and then we create a bunch of different not we have a 206 00:14:03.250 --> 00:14:07.769 ninety minute high production quality video that then can be chopped up on Linkedin and 207 00:14:07.929 --> 00:14:11.480 put on Youtube and put on our website and set out by email and soundbites 208 00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:13.440 can get created or we can rip it for a podcast or whatever the things 209 00:14:13.480 --> 00:14:20.480 like that, and then through that education we create awareness and then people come 210 00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:24.389 to us to buy stuff, which I would consider using the same tactic, 211 00:14:24.429 --> 00:14:28.629 but in a demand Jin execution rather than a League Gen execution. The same 212 00:14:28.750 --> 00:14:33.269 thing can go for ebooks or whatever tactic. It's just what are you trying 213 00:14:33.309 --> 00:14:37.269 to do? Are you trying to educate people or you trying to get people 214 00:14:37.389 --> 00:14:39.139 to convert so you can try and sell them something? Yep, and so 215 00:14:39.259 --> 00:14:43.779 I wholeheartedly agree with with kind of where you've come out on the other end 216 00:14:43.820 --> 00:14:48.580 of this, being that demand Jin is is way more effective than Le Jin, 217 00:14:48.779 --> 00:14:52.019 because it's really I mean, it's how you and I have both built 218 00:14:52.019 --> 00:14:56.769 our own businesses. We've gone all then, on educating this show. I 219 00:14:56.850 --> 00:14:58.889 mean be to be gross. The lion share. Ninety eight percent of the 220 00:14:58.929 --> 00:15:01.889 content that we talked about here has nothing to do with be to be podcasting, 221 00:15:01.970 --> 00:15:07.559 which is our business, because we've gone we're just pot committed to educating 222 00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:11.600 our ideal buyer, which is a VP of marketing and a BB Tech Company 223 00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:15.080 with fifty plus employees. We figure out, okay, what do they want 224 00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:16.840 to know that, even if it has nothing to do with what we sell 225 00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:20.000 and what we do, we know that if we can educate them well, 226 00:15:20.629 --> 00:15:24.149 whenever they do want to get into podcasting, we're probably going to be their 227 00:15:24.190 --> 00:15:28.629 first or second call to talk about what, you know, how we can 228 00:15:28.669 --> 00:15:31.629 possibly help them. So now I think. I think corporate, but there's 229 00:15:31.629 --> 00:15:35.389 a there's a nuanser that you mentioned. I think a lot of corporate brands 230 00:15:35.509 --> 00:15:39.019 miss, which is that when they create the content, it's only driven to 231 00:15:39.100 --> 00:15:45.500 drive people into a funnel for their product, as opposed to let me assess 232 00:15:45.580 --> 00:15:48.299 my audience, let me figure out what they care about, and ninety eight 233 00:15:48.379 --> 00:15:50.809 percent of the things that they care about have nothing to do with you. 234 00:15:52.610 --> 00:15:56.769 And really go pot committed on the ninety eight percent. It's so counterintuitive. 235 00:15:56.809 --> 00:16:00.169 People struggle to get there right. Like I've been run to man jam and 236 00:16:00.610 --> 00:16:03.480 I've been filming these videos and spending you know, travel get someone there, 237 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:10.399 videographers like in expensive production to create a video that has nothing to do with 238 00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:14.480 our product. And I've gotten pushed back from executives. But I know that 239 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:18.269 the impact of creating that video standing out mean email do a hundred thousand people 240 00:16:18.309 --> 00:16:23.350 that care watch the the amount of depth you create when a thousand people in 241 00:16:23.429 --> 00:16:29.190 your target market spend ninety minutes watching that video, that is where you've everyone 242 00:16:29.269 --> 00:16:32.029 is about reach. How do I send? How do I create an add 243 00:16:32.110 --> 00:16:34.460 and get a million impressions? I'm about depth. How do I get someone? 244 00:16:34.500 --> 00:16:37.580 If someone sits there and consumes content, gets died out of it for 245 00:16:37.620 --> 00:16:41.740 ninety minutes, a thousand people to do that is much more important than a 246 00:16:41.860 --> 00:16:45.580 million people that saw your logo in and add and scroll bread by it. 247 00:16:45.980 --> 00:16:48.649 Yep, my view. So so clearly both you and I land on the 248 00:16:48.730 --> 00:16:52.450 same side of the fence, which is the man Jin is far more effective 249 00:16:52.929 --> 00:16:57.850 going out and creating creating that demand by not necessarily having a call to action, 250 00:16:59.169 --> 00:17:03.319 or your intent is not exactly yeah, you're in. Your intent is 251 00:17:03.400 --> 00:17:07.039 not to create this piece of content. So that the you can hand over 252 00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:11.920 a lead to your sales team. Your intent is to educate the the market 253 00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:15.069 that you're trying to educate, so demandin coming out more effective. there. 254 00:17:15.549 --> 00:17:19.630 Is there any room at all for legion? Is there a situation where that 255 00:17:19.750 --> 00:17:27.309 makes sense? I personally don't use that tactic, mainly because like my feeling, 256 00:17:27.349 --> 00:17:30.339 and I think this will actually I've never said it this way before, 257 00:17:30.339 --> 00:17:33.700 but I think it'd be an interesting way to look at it, is that 258 00:17:33.539 --> 00:17:41.019 the companies that are running legion prioritized quantity over quality. And I know that 259 00:17:41.220 --> 00:17:45.170 because you just can't cold target someone, have them convert on a Legen form 260 00:17:45.250 --> 00:17:49.049 and expect them to close at any set of a high rate like they were 261 00:17:49.130 --> 00:17:52.690 cold and then people will convert. But I just know, like I've done 262 00:17:52.730 --> 00:17:56.970 this before. You run requested demo adds on Linkedin, you get people to 263 00:17:57.009 --> 00:18:00.759 fill up the form for two hundred dollars each and you're going to send twenty 264 00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:03.960 five leaves to your sales team. In zero of them we're going to close 265 00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:10.039 and you just wasted their time. And so it's not only the cost of 266 00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:12.430 the expense of running the ads. You get those twenty five leads for two 267 00:18:12.430 --> 00:18:18.349 hundred dollars, five thousand bucks, but it's all of the wasted time for 268 00:18:18.509 --> 00:18:22.109 your whatever it is, strs as any of that process to go and follow 269 00:18:22.150 --> 00:18:25.789 up with those leads and move them through a process where they're not going to 270 00:18:25.869 --> 00:18:30.900 close. And then, lastly, the hidden cost of of misalignment that's created 271 00:18:32.059 --> 00:18:34.740 between marketing and sales by doing that. Yeah, and so if you look 272 00:18:34.779 --> 00:18:38.740 at all the different impacts, that is the reason why I choose not to 273 00:18:38.900 --> 00:18:44.450 do it that way anymore because I've I've run enough experiments and I continue to 274 00:18:44.569 --> 00:18:47.730 fact check. So the most recent time that we've done that was in January 275 00:18:47.769 --> 00:18:52.369 of this year. We Ran Linkedin conversion ads, super targeted for Demo. 276 00:18:52.009 --> 00:18:56.359 Collected twenty leads at about the price that I was mentioned and zero of them 277 00:18:56.440 --> 00:19:00.359 closed and a thirty day sales cycle. So that you know there they didn't 278 00:19:00.359 --> 00:19:07.000 close. And I think people only think about it directly or they're measured in 279 00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:11.549 a way that that incentivises them to behave that way. Yeah, and so 280 00:19:11.630 --> 00:19:15.230 I want I want to go back to that, to that measurement piece. 281 00:19:15.349 --> 00:19:18.710 So it was something that you mentioned actually in the Post that referred too earlier 282 00:19:18.750 --> 00:19:21.630 that you wrote on Linkedin. You said that marketing teams need to stop getting 283 00:19:21.630 --> 00:19:25.980 measured like SDR teams. They need to stop getting measured on in ql volume 284 00:19:26.380 --> 00:19:30.059 and early stage funnel metrics that don't matter. So how do you propose that 285 00:19:30.140 --> 00:19:37.180 that marketer should be measured instead? Gosh, so I finally felt like I've 286 00:19:38.009 --> 00:19:44.769 figured out why people behave this way and why marketers do the things that they 287 00:19:44.809 --> 00:19:47.529 do. I spend a lot of time thinking about that organizational weeks. You 288 00:19:47.609 --> 00:19:51.130 see it at a mass scale, about what's happening right now. And basically, 289 00:19:51.250 --> 00:19:53.240 the way that I look at it, and Bab companies since the beginning 290 00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:59.559 of time have been sales driven. Yeah, and and not, not no 291 00:19:59.960 --> 00:20:03.039 fault to them. Twenty years ago, like that was the way to go 292 00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:07.190 to market right there was very little internet, very tough to reach people, 293 00:20:07.269 --> 00:20:10.109 not a lot of tech like, not a lot of targeting. That was 294 00:20:10.190 --> 00:20:14.589 the way in. Over the past five or ten years marketing has become more 295 00:20:14.670 --> 00:20:19.109 important, but people have taken methodology of sales and and pushed it into marketing. 296 00:20:21.230 --> 00:20:23.259 And so if you look at, like how people are scored on MQL's 297 00:20:23.259 --> 00:20:27.140 or meetings books like, that's basically the same way they score inn str teams 298 00:20:27.180 --> 00:20:32.299 and I they just have two teams that are doing the same thing in different 299 00:20:32.299 --> 00:20:36.490 ways, as drs are booking meetings through cold calls or outbound or whatever they 300 00:20:36.529 --> 00:20:40.250 want to do, and marketing teams are running conversion based ads or mid funnel 301 00:20:40.329 --> 00:20:45.210 content ads to get the same exact outcome. And so the easiest way for 302 00:20:45.250 --> 00:20:48.049 me to tell whether or not a company's really doing demanjen is to look at 303 00:20:48.049 --> 00:20:51.759 their sales efficiency metrics between in bound and outbound. HMM. And so you 304 00:20:51.799 --> 00:20:55.680 should see high, significantly higher win rates and significantly shorter sales cycles if you're 305 00:20:55.680 --> 00:20:59.799 doing demand generation right and through the inbound channel. Got It. And so 306 00:20:59.880 --> 00:21:03.079 that's like a super clear and easy way to know what's going on. And 307 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:07.670 most companies will see similar, if not worse, metrics on their inbound channel 308 00:21:07.750 --> 00:21:10.829 because of the way that they're executing, because they're doing needgen not not to 309 00:21:10.910 --> 00:21:14.430 manage them. How do you think marketers should be measured if it's not on 310 00:21:14.549 --> 00:21:18.579 mql volume and early stage funnel metrics? But I think I mean you answered 311 00:21:18.619 --> 00:21:22.579 it. It's it's looking at went like, what is your win rate on 312 00:21:22.299 --> 00:21:26.420 your inbound leads and measuring them based on that. Did I understand that correctly? 313 00:21:26.700 --> 00:21:30.980 Look, I I've thought about this for five years. I think I 314 00:21:30.099 --> 00:21:34.289 have a very clear picture of how companies should do this, which is that 315 00:21:36.049 --> 00:21:41.130 the number one metric that marketing team should be scored on is revenue contribution. 316 00:21:41.809 --> 00:21:45.250 Okay, a lot of a lot of tech vendors are pushing them to be 317 00:21:45.329 --> 00:21:51.200 measured on influenced pipeline or something like that, which is great because for tech 318 00:21:51.240 --> 00:21:53.720 vendors to sell their product because marketers can send one email and claim that they 319 00:21:53.759 --> 00:22:00.839 influence that pipeline. But the real way is marketing sourced inbound revenue contribution for 320 00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:03.509 net new logo. So exclude expansion, exclude all that stuff. Stuff. 321 00:22:04.069 --> 00:22:11.269 So what percentage of your revenue is coming to you versus you going to them? 322 00:22:11.869 --> 00:22:17.339 Especially for higher ACV SASS product specifically, a lot of companies that we 323 00:22:17.460 --> 00:22:22.980 go into are like ten percent heavy outbound, and so if you're able to 324 00:22:22.099 --> 00:22:29.220 move that metric to thirty five percent or fifty percent, then the dynamics of 325 00:22:29.259 --> 00:22:32.569 your business change. The actually how you structure Your Business can change a lot. 326 00:22:32.650 --> 00:22:34.049 You maybe don't need so many stars, maybe you don't need so many 327 00:22:34.049 --> 00:22:37.529 as you can lower your customer position costs a lot of different things. So 328 00:22:38.130 --> 00:22:42.769 one inbound revenue contribution as a percentage of net new logo total net new logo 329 00:22:42.849 --> 00:22:49.039 revenue. The second one is marketing source qualified pipeline generated. HMM. The 330 00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:57.039 third one is sales cycle length compared to the outbound channel. Fourth one would 331 00:22:57.039 --> 00:23:03.470 be win rate of marketing source versus outbound channel. Then the last one would 332 00:23:03.470 --> 00:23:07.150 be like custom AC position cost or cat payback period or another another metric to 333 00:23:07.309 --> 00:23:11.269 know how efficient you are in spending your marketing dollars. Those are the metrics 334 00:23:11.309 --> 00:23:15.740 that I audit companies on, especially when you compare it inbound outbound and you 335 00:23:15.779 --> 00:23:19.380 look at like cust pack poisition cost or cat pay back period, it very 336 00:23:19.380 --> 00:23:25.220 much exposes the declining efficiency of an outbound channel, even if marketings not doing 337 00:23:25.259 --> 00:23:27.970 the right things, because you're going to see a lot of organic things happen 338 00:23:29.130 --> 00:23:33.569 that you have no like. I would argue that many companies, just because 339 00:23:33.569 --> 00:23:37.170 they don't look at it in this level of detail, like a lot of 340 00:23:37.250 --> 00:23:41.720 their a pretty significant portion of the revenue doesn't come either from marketing or from 341 00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:45.759 sales. That comes from word of mouth, organic and so because they're not 342 00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:48.519 they're not measuring on that and they don't look at it that way. It 343 00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:52.640 actually, if they look at blended CAC or another metric like that, it 344 00:23:52.839 --> 00:23:56.269 high. It's the differences in the effectiveness of different channels that they're doing. 345 00:23:56.589 --> 00:24:00.950 Yeah, now, I love that you shared that. If you're listening to 346 00:24:00.150 --> 00:24:07.269 this and you haven't already rewound back to the last few minutes, look at 347 00:24:07.349 --> 00:24:11.380 those specific metrics that Chris just laid out and how your marketing team should be 348 00:24:11.460 --> 00:24:15.740 measured versus how you're currently measuring them. I think it's going to be incredibly 349 00:24:15.779 --> 00:24:18.900 eye opening. It's going to be something I'm going to definitely be talking to 350 00:24:19.019 --> 00:24:22.980 Logan about later today. Even as we try to figure out measurement, we 351 00:24:23.329 --> 00:24:29.009 naturally lean toward doing the type of activity that that you advocate for, Chris, 352 00:24:29.170 --> 00:24:32.329 but we don't do a great job of measuring results. We know that 353 00:24:32.369 --> 00:24:34.970 it's working because the business is continuing to grow, but I'm going to go 354 00:24:36.089 --> 00:24:38.880 back and listen to that part again just so that we can get better at 355 00:24:38.920 --> 00:24:44.759 tightening up actually measuring effectiveness around those metrics. That's how you get sales and 356 00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:51.160 marketing alignment is by being aligned on the actual outcome. The caveat is that 357 00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:55.390 sometimes when you get a like marketing teams that don't do demandagin ad, Delete 358 00:24:55.430 --> 00:24:59.109 Legion, get aligned on a sales metric and then just do a b bunch 359 00:24:59.109 --> 00:25:02.069 of sales activities. Yeah, Directmail, the book, meetings, like all 360 00:25:02.109 --> 00:25:06.109 those different stuff. So it's like you you need to understand the difference between 361 00:25:06.150 --> 00:25:10.140 sales and marketing. I see a lot of people that are that are in 362 00:25:10.259 --> 00:25:15.220 a marketing title that are much more doing sales, conversion based sales, that 363 00:25:15.299 --> 00:25:19.140 are moving people into some type of sales funnel, and so I've always found 364 00:25:19.779 --> 00:25:27.170 that you create sales and marketing alignment when marketing does marketing in a good way, 365 00:25:27.210 --> 00:25:33.369 which then contributes to the outcomes that sales is going after, which is 366 00:25:33.450 --> 00:25:38.000 again like very counterintuitive for many to think. Oh, like, I'm going 367 00:25:38.119 --> 00:25:41.880 to produce content that has nothing to do with my product. How does that 368 00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:45.039 make me aligned with sales? Well, it makes you aligned with sales when 369 00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:48.920 you're Indoun revenue contribution goes up from ten to fifty percent when you do it 370 00:25:49.069 --> 00:25:53.230 well and they don't feel so so much pressure to create so much of their 371 00:25:53.230 --> 00:25:57.309 own pipeline that wins at a lower rate and takes longer sales cycles. You're 372 00:25:57.390 --> 00:26:02.549 helping them achieve their goal, and so I think that's a big takeaway for 373 00:26:02.990 --> 00:26:04.819 people as well. Yea, I love it. So you mentioned one other 374 00:26:04.900 --> 00:26:07.779 thing, Christ that I want to that I want to touch on here. 375 00:26:07.259 --> 00:26:11.140 You mentioned it in your post. So you said that a lot of marketers 376 00:26:11.220 --> 00:26:15.940 think they're doing to managin when they're actually doing legion. Why do you think 377 00:26:17.059 --> 00:26:22.369 there's so much confusion around around those two things? So the first thing is 378 00:26:22.529 --> 00:26:26.730 that only until recently I've been able to figure out and distinguish these myself. 379 00:26:26.849 --> 00:26:30.569 So I it's nobody's fault for for not understanding them, but I think that 380 00:26:32.009 --> 00:26:33.680 being able to frame up that way can help a lot of people, which 381 00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:40.200 is why I did it, and I don't think that it's anyone's fault per 382 00:26:40.279 --> 00:26:42.079 se. I think that there's a couple things that drive it, and we've 383 00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:45.839 kind of talked about them a little bit already, which is one. I 384 00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:51.470 think that a lot of people do not question the way that they do things. 385 00:26:51.509 --> 00:26:56.069 HMM, they just do them and they do them because Gardner told them 386 00:26:56.109 --> 00:27:00.269 to do it that way or in ABM tech vendor told to do that way, 387 00:27:00.309 --> 00:27:02.579 or upspot told him to do it that way, so they do it 388 00:27:03.140 --> 00:27:07.099 rather than just literally looking black at white at what they're doing and whether or 389 00:27:07.099 --> 00:27:08.380 not it's effective and whether or not there's a better way to do it. 390 00:27:10.099 --> 00:27:15.420 So one is just really being being open to the idea that maybe the way 391 00:27:15.420 --> 00:27:18.809 that you're doing things isn't the best way. And the next one that I 392 00:27:18.849 --> 00:27:21.329 have a lot of empathy forks I've worked at companies like this, is that 393 00:27:21.369 --> 00:27:26.170 the companies don't incentivize them to do things differently. Yeah, and so those 394 00:27:26.210 --> 00:27:30.960 are like the to the two core reasons, and and I know because I've 395 00:27:30.200 --> 00:27:33.599 gone into a lot of different companies and whether it's as a consul there, 396 00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:41.440 as an employee or whatever type of engagement it is, that that marketers are 397 00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:48.869 driven to do the things that the crow or the CEO wants, and usually 398 00:27:48.950 --> 00:27:52.549 those are not the right things. Yeah, Yep. So, Chris, 399 00:27:52.910 --> 00:27:56.789 this has been incredible. I want to want to close it out. What 400 00:27:56.309 --> 00:28:00.900 is one one takeaway that you want listeners to walk away with after hearing this 401 00:28:02.500 --> 00:28:06.059 that that you don't want them to forget? I don't think there's anything really 402 00:28:06.180 --> 00:28:11.180 like profound that I could say right now that that would really like move people 403 00:28:11.259 --> 00:28:17.609 to something new. But I think one key takeaway that I'd recommend is if 404 00:28:17.650 --> 00:28:21.930 you're a marketer and you want your career to change or you want your busy 405 00:28:21.970 --> 00:28:25.450 business to grow, or whatever you're trying to look at the the thing that 406 00:28:25.490 --> 00:28:27.839 I learned in two thousand and sixteen is you need to really audit the people 407 00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:33.559 that you're listening to. HMM. And so for the first five years of 408 00:28:33.640 --> 00:28:37.680 my career I had some great mentors and I learned a lot of foundational things 409 00:28:37.720 --> 00:28:41.910 that I'm super, super grateful for. But when it came to driving a 410 00:28:41.069 --> 00:28:45.589 business and running demand generation, I was list I was listening to the wrong 411 00:28:45.630 --> 00:28:48.190 things. Therefore I was doing the wrong things, and so that's really I 412 00:28:48.309 --> 00:28:52.549 think one thing that I'd recommend is who are you getting your advice from, 413 00:28:52.029 --> 00:28:56.019 and is it the right advice? Yeah, is it producing the type of 414 00:28:56.059 --> 00:29:00.500 result that you actually want to produce? Exactly. Yep, I love it 415 00:29:00.819 --> 00:29:03.539 awesome. Well, thank you so much, Chris, for joining us today. 416 00:29:03.579 --> 00:29:08.059 Again, if you're listening to to this, we're talking to Chris Walker 417 00:29:08.099 --> 00:29:12.970 today. Is the CEOVER fine labs. He's putting out incredible content on linkedin 418 00:29:14.089 --> 00:29:17.529 pretty much every day, and so make sure that you are following him. 419 00:29:17.569 --> 00:29:19.210 There, Chris, thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks James 420 00:29:19.369 --> 00:29:26.839 The fun man. I hate it when podcasts incessantly ask their listeners for reviews, 421 00:29:26.079 --> 00:29:30.559 but I get why they do it, because reviews are enormously helpful when 422 00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:33.599 you're trying to grow a podcast audience. So here's what we decided to do. 423 00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:37.119 If you leave a review for be to be growth and apple podcasts and 424 00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:41.950 email me a screenshot of the review to James At sweetfish Mediacom, I'll send 425 00:29:41.990 --> 00:29:45.349 you a signed copy of my new book, content based networking, how to 426 00:29:45.470 --> 00:29:48.589 instantly connect with anyone you want to know. We get a review, you 427 00:29:48.069 --> 00:29:49.789 get a free book. We both win.