March 25, 2020

1234: Why You Should Ramp Up Your Content Marketing Right Now w/ Chris Walker

In this episode we talk to , CEO at . Sweet Fish is hiring! Click  to learn more.  drives search marketing results for enterprise brands around the world, but you’ll feel like their only client. Learn more at:  Are...

In this episode we talk to Chris Walker, CEO at Refine Labs.


Sweet Fish is hiring! Click here to learn more.


Directive drives search marketing results for enterprise brands around the world, but you’ll feel like their only client.

Learn more at: directiveconsulting.com


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Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:02.560 Hey, this is James, the founder of sweet fish media. If you've 2 00:00:02.600 --> 00:00:04.839 listened to BB growth for a while, you probably have an idea of what 3 00:00:04.879 --> 00:00:09.230 we're passionate about. Loving people really well, a constant pursuit of learning and 4 00:00:09.630 --> 00:00:14.230 inspiring people to own their careers. With all the craziness happening with this virus, 5 00:00:14.310 --> 00:00:18.510 we are incredibly fortunate to be in the business of podcasting. So many 6 00:00:18.550 --> 00:00:22.699 BB brands are looking for alternatives to their inperson events that are being canceled, 7 00:00:23.019 --> 00:00:26.980 and our business is growing as a result. Please don't miss hear me on 8 00:00:27.059 --> 00:00:31.179 this, because I'm not saying this to Brag. It is heartbreaking the economic 9 00:00:31.219 --> 00:00:34.979 impact this is having on so many businesses. But being in the business of 10 00:00:35.060 --> 00:00:39.609 podcasting, the demand for what we do has increased and because of that we're 11 00:00:39.649 --> 00:00:43.890 looking to hire really talented people to help us serve that demand. So if 12 00:00:43.929 --> 00:00:46.729 you like what we're all about it sweet fish and you're looking for a great 13 00:00:46.729 --> 00:00:50.079 career opportunity, hit us up. There's a link in the show notes where 14 00:00:50.119 --> 00:00:55.520 you can apply today. I'm really looking forward to meeting you. Welcome back 15 00:00:55.520 --> 00:00:58.880 to be tob growth. I'm Logan Lyles of sweet fish media. Today I'm 16 00:00:58.880 --> 00:01:02.560 joined by Chris Walker. He's the CEO over at refine labs. Chris, 17 00:01:02.679 --> 00:01:04.469 how's it going today? Man, very well, Goan. Good to join 18 00:01:04.549 --> 00:01:08.750 you. Happy to be here and looking forward to Jaen's absolutely man, James 19 00:01:08.790 --> 00:01:12.349 and I have been talking every so often. It seems like I see one 20 00:01:12.349 --> 00:01:15.829 of your posts more than every so often lately, because you've been very consistent 21 00:01:15.950 --> 00:01:19.459 on Linkedin. You're very like minded with US trying to put out actionable, 22 00:01:19.700 --> 00:01:23.620 tactical stuff that that gets to where the rubber meets the road. So I've 23 00:01:23.659 --> 00:01:27.859 been excited to have you on the show for a while now. Before we 24 00:01:27.980 --> 00:01:32.019 jump into things today, we're going to try and get action. will not 25 00:01:32.219 --> 00:01:34.930 kind of hey, drink water because you work from home, but in light 26 00:01:36.049 --> 00:01:38.650 of everything that's going on, what are some things that marketing teams need to 27 00:01:38.689 --> 00:01:42.810 be thinking about today? Breakdown a post that you shared earlier this week on 28 00:01:42.969 --> 00:01:47.129 linkedin before we jump into that. Man, for folks who aren't familiar with 29 00:01:47.239 --> 00:01:49.120 you haven't been seeing your content on Linkedin, give us a little bit of 30 00:01:49.159 --> 00:01:52.799 background on yourself and what you and the team are up to. It refine 31 00:01:52.840 --> 00:01:56.319 laps these days. Yeah, for sure, so. So. Yeah, 32 00:01:56.319 --> 00:02:00.359 my name is Chris Walker. I started this, this company, about twelve 33 00:02:00.519 --> 00:02:04.709 months ago after working several growth stage venture back companies and seeing the power of 34 00:02:04.909 --> 00:02:08.509 marketing how that kind accelerate grows for growth for a company by lowering cust requisition 35 00:02:08.590 --> 00:02:15.110 cost shorting sale cycles overall creating a more efficient growth model. And so now 36 00:02:15.860 --> 00:02:22.819 we are essentially an outsource expertise for demand generation for growth stage softwares of service 37 00:02:22.900 --> 00:02:27.139 companies that sell a product in the ACV range of five to a hundred k. 38 00:02:27.379 --> 00:02:30.530 So not to transactional, not to enterprise, we stay in this like 39 00:02:30.930 --> 00:02:36.849 middle place where where I think the power of content marketing really really can drive 40 00:02:36.889 --> 00:02:38.810 growth. I think it works at all spectrums, but especially in this little 41 00:02:38.810 --> 00:02:42.969 place, because companies that have two low of ACD, so you're going to 42 00:02:43.009 --> 00:02:46.759 be way to performance marketing base for my liking, and companies at the way 43 00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:53.680 enterprise level are going to be far too outbound sales, ABM sales, you 44 00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:57.039 if you call it a BM account base, sales focus with market is helping 45 00:02:57.159 --> 00:03:02.069 with that. And neither of those are really really things that I believe in. 46 00:03:02.270 --> 00:03:07.669 What I believe in is produce super valuable, unique, original content do 47 00:03:07.750 --> 00:03:10.949 it incredibly consistently know how to distribute it to the people that you need to 48 00:03:12.069 --> 00:03:16.740 see it, which leads to increase brand awareness, subconscious product consideration for you 49 00:03:16.900 --> 00:03:23.460 all and a lot more in bound opportunities that happen organically there for lowering customer 50 00:03:23.539 --> 00:03:28.729 position costs and get a revenue one more efficient. And so yeah, in 51 00:03:28.810 --> 00:03:31.770 essence, that is that's what we do. We work with dozens of B 52 00:03:31.889 --> 00:03:37.689 TOB SASS companies helping do that and continue to refine the model and add layers 53 00:03:37.810 --> 00:03:40.090 to the things that we do. Yeah, man, as I mentioned already, 54 00:03:40.169 --> 00:03:43.919 so like minded with us. I mean we're serving a lot of the 55 00:03:44.039 --> 00:03:47.520 same folks in kind of that mid market area, especially SASS companies, is 56 00:03:47.560 --> 00:03:54.039 they're using their their podcast to get in front of folks consistently provide tactical, 57 00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:59.310 useful content. Just agree so much with the mindset that you guys have and 58 00:03:59.389 --> 00:04:02.550 how you're helping marketers. Today. Let's jump in and and talk about, 59 00:04:02.870 --> 00:04:05.629 you know, something I think we're all thinking about and then we're going to 60 00:04:05.710 --> 00:04:09.789 get into the what to do about it. But you know, your post 61 00:04:10.300 --> 00:04:14.699 earlier this week on Linkedin really kicked off with Hey, marketing budgets are going 62 00:04:14.860 --> 00:04:17.819 to start to be scrutinized as is. You know, every functional rules budget. 63 00:04:17.980 --> 00:04:21.139 But set the stage a little bit there and kind of what you're seeing 64 00:04:21.180 --> 00:04:25.810 and talking to your customers today, and then we're going to get into you 65 00:04:25.930 --> 00:04:28.810 know, what folks can start doing about it. Yeah, for sure. 66 00:04:28.850 --> 00:04:31.730 So I think a great place to start is that this is not a prediction, 67 00:04:31.930 --> 00:04:36.089 this is just an observation of what's actually happening. So I speak to 68 00:04:36.689 --> 00:04:41.759 a lot of anything from marketing manager to CMO level, people at a wide 69 00:04:41.800 --> 00:04:45.959 range of different types and sizes of companies, both hardware and software. RECURRING 70 00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:50.439 REVENUE MODEL, growth stage, profitable, doesn't matter. And and when the 71 00:04:50.839 --> 00:04:56.670 the economy tightens up, which hasn't happened in a considerable on a time, 72 00:04:56.709 --> 00:05:00.389 especially to this degree, companies will then start to scrutinize their expenses, which 73 00:05:00.389 --> 00:05:03.910 they haven't had to do for a very long time, and the first places 74 00:05:04.110 --> 00:05:10.860 that they're going to look are in variable expenses, not non fixed overhead, 75 00:05:10.939 --> 00:05:13.620 not had count. You're not going to be able to cut your, you 76 00:05:13.699 --> 00:05:16.019 know, your office expense with a consider a non straight away. So they're 77 00:05:16.019 --> 00:05:21.689 going to look at variable expenses and and the number one, the largest department, 78 00:05:21.730 --> 00:05:26.810 the department with the largest variable expense budget is always, or most often 79 00:05:26.850 --> 00:05:30.730 in the marketing team, and so that's where companies are going to go first. 80 00:05:30.769 --> 00:05:32.250 They don't want to lay off people straightaway, so where else can they 81 00:05:32.329 --> 00:05:35.959 cut? It's going to be in software that's in month to month contracts and 82 00:05:36.079 --> 00:05:40.959 it's going to be in variable expenses in the marketing budget or the first places 83 00:05:41.040 --> 00:05:45.160 to look. And so for marketers that are that are going to be faced, 84 00:05:45.279 --> 00:05:50.470 seen and having that discussion, you better be prepared with your metrics and 85 00:05:50.829 --> 00:05:57.110 your performance and your plans about how that money's being used and what the impact 86 00:05:57.189 --> 00:06:00.670 is and relative to other things in the company, why you are making an 87 00:06:00.670 --> 00:06:04.459 impact this greater than some of the other expenses on the on the panl yeah, 88 00:06:04.500 --> 00:06:06.579 I love it. Man. The other thing that you mentioned that I 89 00:06:06.660 --> 00:06:12.180 thought was very timely for folks to think about, and there may be only, 90 00:06:12.500 --> 00:06:15.100 you know, certain number of things that you can do about this based 91 00:06:15.139 --> 00:06:17.850 on what your product is, but there may be things that you can shift 92 00:06:17.889 --> 00:06:21.449 or you can pivot a little bit. You know, if your productor or 93 00:06:21.569 --> 00:06:28.050 service takes a long time to on board and you've got very long contract links, 94 00:06:28.089 --> 00:06:32.839 you've got a costly implementation process. You've got a complex implementation process that 95 00:06:33.319 --> 00:06:38.360 produces a lot of variables, which creates, you know, some fear and 96 00:06:38.439 --> 00:06:42.199 uncertainty, which is where, you know, again, where we're cuts are 97 00:06:42.240 --> 00:06:45.319 going to happen. So you work with a lot of SASS companies. What 98 00:06:45.399 --> 00:06:47.310 do you advise in them kind of on this point right now? Yeah, 99 00:06:47.350 --> 00:06:51.230 I mean to be honest, I think the people that are going to find 100 00:06:51.269 --> 00:06:59.029 the most impact on that side is actually consulting service based companies that are doing 101 00:06:59.230 --> 00:07:03.420 project based work. Big Website overhauls, hundred k website overhaul is not going 102 00:07:03.459 --> 00:07:08.899 to not going to kick off tomorrow, in my view. Huge sales sports 103 00:07:08.980 --> 00:07:13.779 consulting rebuild probably not going to kick off tomorrow, and so some of those, 104 00:07:13.819 --> 00:07:17.810 I think those companies that are project based, large deal sizes are quite 105 00:07:17.850 --> 00:07:21.569 vulnerable to having that cash flow be delayed right now. In terms of the 106 00:07:21.689 --> 00:07:27.209 SASS, the SASS side, I think that, just because there is so 107 00:07:27.329 --> 00:07:31.199 much uncertainty in the system right now, that a lot of people, I 108 00:07:31.279 --> 00:07:35.199 mean I think almost everyone right now is in a wait and hold position for 109 00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:39.560 at least a minimum next two to four weeks and I think that things will 110 00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:44.709 become more clear than and so think to make this really actionable, like what 111 00:07:44.829 --> 00:07:47.550 can companies do right now? I think there's a couple key places that that 112 00:07:47.910 --> 00:07:53.269 they should focus. One is really figuring out branding content. I've been talking 113 00:07:53.269 --> 00:07:58.230 about this for five years companies. If this trend of what's happening continues, 114 00:07:58.310 --> 00:08:03.060 the companies that failed to become true experts in content, social digital execution are 115 00:08:03.060 --> 00:08:05.740 going to really struggle over the next six months. It must be a core 116 00:08:05.819 --> 00:08:11.500 competency inside of every company. The next one would be product. Continuing to 117 00:08:11.660 --> 00:08:16.769 move forward on product and build those are things that you have looking at what 118 00:08:16.889 --> 00:08:20.810 you have control over, investing in product, in differentiation, understanding customers and 119 00:08:20.009 --> 00:08:22.490 being able to move forward on that is something I think is super huge. 120 00:08:24.250 --> 00:08:28.959 And then last thing is just overall organizational efficiency, whether it's on the revenue 121 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:31.159 side or other places to people are cutting, you know, software is that 122 00:08:31.240 --> 00:08:35.919 are unnecessary or done in or things like that to save money. But it's 123 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:39.759 also, like I've been talking about this forever, it's like look at your 124 00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:46.629 overall company and how it's generating revenue. You have variable marketing expenses, marketing 125 00:08:46.710 --> 00:08:50.509 headcount, a SDR head count, no matter where they fall. Account Executives, 126 00:08:50.549 --> 00:08:54.470 account manages, you have that, and so, like companies are going 127 00:08:54.549 --> 00:08:58.779 to get pressed and make decisions on what of those types of resources they need 128 00:08:58.860 --> 00:09:01.100 and how it needs to get reallocated. I think a lot of companies are 129 00:09:01.139 --> 00:09:05.179 going to find that there, as the our teams are going to drink. 130 00:09:05.340 --> 00:09:07.940 That was another point here. Given what's happening right now, I think we're 131 00:09:07.940 --> 00:09:13.970 going to see a further decline in the effectiveness of about bound selling, and 132 00:09:15.250 --> 00:09:18.529 so with that I think companies will start to sense that and that will be 133 00:09:18.570 --> 00:09:22.370 a place where they start to try and recover some costs and, from a 134 00:09:22.450 --> 00:09:26.000 fixed overhead perspective, and reduce that. And so those are just some of 135 00:09:26.039 --> 00:09:28.799 the things that are going through my mind right now and we'll just have to 136 00:09:28.840 --> 00:09:31.720 continue to wait and see how it develops. Yeah, I like that you 137 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:37.240 went there and talking about looking at all your go to market strategies, looking 138 00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:41.429 at outbound, looking at looking at content and and inbound. You know what 139 00:09:41.549 --> 00:09:43.990 you said. They're about. You know, brands that are able to establish 140 00:09:45.070 --> 00:09:50.750 their thought leadership and their expertise to drive relevant inbound is just very top of 141 00:09:50.909 --> 00:09:52.860 mine. I you know, I posted just yesterday on Linkedin. A lot 142 00:09:52.899 --> 00:09:58.139 of our producers who help manage podcast for our customers are getting these questions. 143 00:09:58.179 --> 00:10:01.379 SHOULD WE DELAY OUR PODCAST launch? Should we stop releasing episodes, and and 144 00:10:01.740 --> 00:10:05.700 the resounding answer from our team, which may sound a little bit selfserving, 145 00:10:05.779 --> 00:10:09.169 that hey, keep going with your podcast, but truly I believe this, 146 00:10:09.409 --> 00:10:13.610 that you need to be putting out more content. Where we're in our houses. 147 00:10:13.730 --> 00:10:18.490 The content consumption, I've heard from people, even just earlier today on 148 00:10:18.610 --> 00:10:22.360 Linkedin, kind of anecdotally looking at the data, content consumption is actually going 149 00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:26.679 up. Meet people where they are, when they're doing the dishes, when 150 00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:28.720 they're, you know, shoveling the the sidewalk in front of their house, 151 00:10:28.759 --> 00:10:33.320 which sometimes those the only things that we're doing right now. So tell me 152 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:37.590 a little bit about where you see the role of content playing right now. 153 00:10:37.789 --> 00:10:39.669 And folks that are saying, well, maybe we should pull it back, 154 00:10:41.309 --> 00:10:43.509 you know, are thinking is you should be in front of folks and get 155 00:10:43.669 --> 00:10:48.429 very good at getting in front of folks in multiple digital channels efficiently, because 156 00:10:48.470 --> 00:10:52.539 you're actually going to win there, because you don't have events for that, 157 00:10:52.779 --> 00:10:54.139 just standard. Hey, we're going to be there, we're going to get 158 00:10:54.139 --> 00:10:58.700 that exposure so digital seems even more important to us right now. What's your 159 00:10:58.740 --> 00:11:01.500 take on that? Yeah, I mean when I when I rattle about this, 160 00:11:01.580 --> 00:11:05.769 couple things. The first one was content in brand and not in the 161 00:11:05.850 --> 00:11:09.929 sense of brands like refixing your colors. It is when I talked with brand. 162 00:11:11.169 --> 00:11:15.490 Thank you, matting, clarifying that. Any marketing that doesn't require is 163 00:11:15.529 --> 00:11:18.480 not measured on a directed tributal Roi. Like a direct response, paid media 164 00:11:18.679 --> 00:11:24.000 and so like thought leadership content, podcast, video, video, podcast blogging 165 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:26.879 with the appropriate distribution, like there's a lot of different ways that that can 166 00:11:26.919 --> 00:11:31.600 be that can that can come to life. I think it's like probably the 167 00:11:31.679 --> 00:11:33.710 most important thing that a marketing team could do right now. So look at 168 00:11:33.710 --> 00:11:37.309 the landscape, like look at these are some of the things that I think 169 00:11:37.309 --> 00:11:39.789 are going to change right now. So you look at a marketing budget, 170 00:11:39.950 --> 00:11:46.230 like probably most marketing teams budgeted somewhere between twenty and fifty percent of their expenses 171 00:11:46.269 --> 00:11:50.220 this year on events, on on trade shows or their own field marketing events 172 00:11:50.220 --> 00:11:54.620 or whatever. For the first at least the near future, of those things 173 00:11:54.659 --> 00:11:56.419 are out. So where's that money going to go? There's a couple different 174 00:11:56.419 --> 00:12:00.620 options. There's one option. Where companies going to take that and they're going 175 00:12:00.620 --> 00:12:03.610 to hold it because having a nice castage cast fusitiones as smart to their prop 176 00:12:03.690 --> 00:12:07.289 they might not use it for companies that don't know how to use it, 177 00:12:07.409 --> 00:12:09.769 which I think there are many. That's what's going to happen. Another thing 178 00:12:09.850 --> 00:12:13.970 that's I think it's going to happen as companies are going to start to scrutinize 179 00:12:13.009 --> 00:12:18.399 their agency relationships. There is a lot of agencies that charge on a recurring 180 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:24.919 revenue subscription and do do not generate revenue just straight up. They are deliverable 181 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:30.629 focused or not revenue generation. Think those relationships will be scrutinized. And the 182 00:12:30.789 --> 00:12:35.389 third thing is I think that companies need to put more money into digital if 183 00:12:35.389 --> 00:12:39.830 they know how to execute. Otherwise it's going to be money wasted right and 184 00:12:39.950 --> 00:12:43.029 so this is why I talked. I call it like getting on the treadmill 185 00:12:43.110 --> 00:12:46.820 for a marathon. Like if we if we're considering we're starting running the marathon 186 00:12:46.899 --> 00:12:50.100 right now and you haven't done any training for the past five years, you're 187 00:12:50.100 --> 00:12:52.100 not going to be able to be you are gonna be able to do this. 188 00:12:52.299 --> 00:12:54.139 And so in that case I'd recommend holding the hold in the cash and 189 00:12:54.259 --> 00:12:58.090 being smarter about that to understand where you can spend it. But for those 190 00:12:58.169 --> 00:13:01.850 that do know how to execute, let's assume that most people that are listening 191 00:13:01.889 --> 00:13:07.450 to this, you know how to execute, it is go harder at content. 192 00:13:07.570 --> 00:13:09.210 Right now, it's actually quite simple. We're sitting here. We can 193 00:13:09.330 --> 00:13:13.960 create video content, you and I right now, in a podcast, and 194 00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:16.720 that can get redistributed and then, if you know how to do it well, 195 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:18.840 you could use media to get that in front of the right people. 196 00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:24.440 And that is that's what that's what we do every day. It just becomes 197 00:13:24.600 --> 00:13:28.789 a more important part of the mix, given how the landscape has changed. 198 00:13:30.350 --> 00:13:33.990 To close out, is just I think that that is the I think that 199 00:13:33.230 --> 00:13:39.549 must be a marketer marketing team's top priority right now. Did Electrical execution. 200 00:13:43.340 --> 00:13:48.419 Today's gross story is about sumo logic, a cloud based log management and security 201 00:13:48.460 --> 00:13:56.330 analytics company whose platform makes tracking log data across various platforms and integrations a breeze. 202 00:13:56.769 --> 00:14:01.490 And when Zoomo logic needed to raise brand awareness across subindustries, they turn 203 00:14:01.610 --> 00:14:05.570 to directive. Directive took on the task of elevating Sumo Logics Enterprise and mid 204 00:14:05.690 --> 00:14:11.399 market brand awareness and making the brand connections with other applications. They needed the 205 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:16.919 brand trust directive built through scores of new customers to purchase szumo logic products with 206 00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:22.799 confidence. 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Sign 213 00:14:50.539 --> 00:14:56.769 up today at Directive Consultingcom Institute and get your first four lessons on us. 214 00:14:56.090 --> 00:15:03.090 Once again, that's directive consultingcom institute to get for free lessons from the pros. 215 00:15:03.450 --> 00:15:09.120 All right, let's get back to the show. Absolutely I know we're 216 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:13.039 kind of rounded out the conversation, but any any quick hits for folks right 217 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:16.919 now in things that you guys are thinking about in executing and making sure that 218 00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:22.110 your content is getting across the right digital channels, whether that's, you know, 219 00:15:22.190 --> 00:15:26.029 may be specific to Linkedin or paid or just anything that's top of mine, 220 00:15:26.190 --> 00:15:31.990 even you know, super granular, going either linkedin paid media or something 221 00:15:31.070 --> 00:15:35.580 like that. Any closing thoughts tips that you think listeners to this that you 222 00:15:35.700 --> 00:15:39.820 know maybe are pretty good at execution, but you found something that's been a 223 00:15:39.860 --> 00:15:43.220 little tweaked that's been a game changer for you guys that listeners might want to 224 00:15:43.299 --> 00:15:45.980 know today. Yeah, yeah, so I want to get two topics and 225 00:15:46.100 --> 00:15:46.940 so if you can hold that question, I'll get back to it. There 226 00:15:48.019 --> 00:15:50.370 was one that's kind of like whooping back to the beginning, which is like 227 00:15:50.690 --> 00:15:56.690 okay, so your marketing budget is going good. Guinness start to be scrutinized. 228 00:15:56.129 --> 00:16:00.809 How are you going to what are you going to present in order to 229 00:16:00.610 --> 00:16:04.879 demonstrate that the marketing is the most effective path to continuing to grow the business? 230 00:16:06.639 --> 00:16:11.399 And I believe the companies that mark it well that that marketing source revenue 231 00:16:11.480 --> 00:16:15.240 is by far the number one channel to grow if you look at it from 232 00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:18.350 a customer position, costs and a sales efficiency standpaling. The challenge is that 233 00:16:18.429 --> 00:16:22.110 most companies don't know how to do that. Or can't do that for whatever 234 00:16:22.110 --> 00:16:25.149 reason. The metrics they're measured on the lack of budget, the lack of 235 00:16:25.269 --> 00:16:27.509 talent, the lack of knowledge. So but for the ones that can, 236 00:16:29.110 --> 00:16:33.500 your custo ecollision cost should be two to six x lower on a on a 237 00:16:33.620 --> 00:16:38.779 marketing sourced funnel as opposed to an out of pure outbound approach and and also, 238 00:16:38.860 --> 00:16:41.659 I had believe, to be more scalable, given the differences in those 239 00:16:41.700 --> 00:16:45.179 two. So I think the first in that marketers need to do is they 240 00:16:45.179 --> 00:16:49.090 got to start breaking down their their funnels by opportunity source. And so there's 241 00:16:49.090 --> 00:16:55.330 actually some within. So the core breakdown is inbound, outbound, on inbound, 242 00:16:55.409 --> 00:16:56.409 then you have to break it down to a couple other off sources. 243 00:16:56.529 --> 00:17:02.000 It's like the way that I look at is sales, website sales conversions by 244 00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:04.480 far the number one conversion in my view, which would be I want to 245 00:17:04.519 --> 00:17:07.279 demo, I want to quote, I want to talk to your sales are 246 00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:10.759 up right, in bound call you. How do you drive to that conversion 247 00:17:10.759 --> 00:17:12.720 point is the number one for me. The next one's going to be events. 248 00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:15.190 We can debate for you know, much longer going to have on this 249 00:17:15.269 --> 00:17:18.589 podcast. The effectiveness and the custer reposition costs to that channel. But I 250 00:17:18.710 --> 00:17:22.950 guess you should break that out because people that just look at overall marketing tact 251 00:17:23.230 --> 00:17:29.509 are are missing the fact that the sales efficiency and custer reposition costs inside of 252 00:17:29.630 --> 00:17:33.099 that bucket are very different depending on what you're doing. And so you have 253 00:17:33.220 --> 00:17:36.339 events, I would break down and measure that. If you're doing syndication, 254 00:17:36.420 --> 00:17:38.579 I would go break out and measure that because it's going to expose its indication 255 00:17:38.779 --> 00:17:42.539 is not actually very effective relative to other marketing activities. And then you have 256 00:17:42.619 --> 00:17:45.849 the outdown side and on the outdound side you're just looking at the cost, 257 00:17:47.529 --> 00:17:51.970 the non cost of sales, so that's SDRs and any other variable expenses to 258 00:17:52.009 --> 00:17:56.089 support that channel. Right. So when we're doing these cat it's the lead 259 00:17:56.250 --> 00:18:00.119 generation piece of it, not the sales piece of it. So that's why 260 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:03.000 I leave it out. It becomes more normalized. And so you look at 261 00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:07.119 those two two buckets and then once you're able to effective, we split them 262 00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:08.079 out. You need to start looking at certain things. You need to start 263 00:18:08.119 --> 00:18:12.710 looking at win rate, sales cycle, average deal size, number of qualified 264 00:18:12.750 --> 00:18:17.630 opportunities generated, which will give you a pipeline velocity for all those different sources. 265 00:18:18.150 --> 00:18:22.029 We need to be looking at qualified pipe rat pipeline contribution amongst those core 266 00:18:22.150 --> 00:18:26.660 sources. We need to be looking at overall expense across all those different sources, 267 00:18:27.420 --> 00:18:33.539 revenue contribution as a percentage of overall net new logo acquisition across all those 268 00:18:33.579 --> 00:18:37.740 sources. And when you start to look at all that information and then you 269 00:18:37.819 --> 00:18:41.490 look at how much you're spending on all those different channels, it's good become 270 00:18:41.569 --> 00:18:45.250 very clear what the best path to growth is. For some companies that are 271 00:18:45.250 --> 00:18:48.049 outbound driven and don't know how to do marketing, it's going to tell them 272 00:18:48.089 --> 00:18:52.730 to do more in dog right like if if you, if you're an athlete, 273 00:18:52.970 --> 00:18:57.039 you're getting you're better at basketball, then you're probably going to want to 274 00:18:57.079 --> 00:19:00.839 do more basketball than play hockey, right like. That's just how it goes. 275 00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:03.200 So half of this this is these are not blanket statements. It also 276 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:06.599 has to do with the core confidencies of your company, which is why it's 277 00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:10.150 really important to go and analyze the data, figure it out for yourself and 278 00:19:10.269 --> 00:19:12.789 then, once so, if a marketer does find out, and often what 279 00:19:12.910 --> 00:19:19.390 we'll find is that the demo demo inbound sales conversion bucket is the most effective. 280 00:19:19.789 --> 00:19:23.339 People are raising their hands and they want to talk to a sales trap, 281 00:19:23.460 --> 00:19:27.059 shorter sales cycles, all these different things. And so how do you 282 00:19:27.220 --> 00:19:34.059 design your marketing engine right now to move people to that conversion point without doing 283 00:19:34.180 --> 00:19:37.650 direct response, adds to send people do it? Get a demo, because 284 00:19:37.730 --> 00:19:41.930 the difference between that is that the people that are filling out the demo form 285 00:19:41.250 --> 00:19:45.410 are doing it on their own. They're not being driven there. And so 286 00:19:45.450 --> 00:19:47.849 if you drive them there, you're going to get the conversions, but the 287 00:19:47.970 --> 00:19:51.450 metrics across that channel are going to go way down. And so the way 288 00:19:51.490 --> 00:19:53.000 that you do that is you create a lot of brand newar and it's upfront, 289 00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:57.799 which then drives organic traffic and that conversion point. That's PODCAST, video, 290 00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:02.279 podcast, effective distribution, all the things that we're saying. And so, 291 00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:06.480 as a marketer, everything I just mapped out, you need to know. 292 00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:07.869 You need to have an a dash boarding to be work with your marketing. 293 00:20:07.910 --> 00:20:12.470 KNOBSTER sales offs people understood the data is right so that when the CFO 294 00:20:14.230 --> 00:20:18.190 or the or the CMO or the crro comes and has that conversation with you, 295 00:20:18.309 --> 00:20:21.740 you can have a very black and white, competent conversation about. Okay, 296 00:20:21.819 --> 00:20:23.500 look like, you know, we're spending x here, and why here, 297 00:20:23.579 --> 00:20:26.660 like I believe that we should keep the marketing budget and we should actually 298 00:20:26.660 --> 00:20:30.740 cut five of those heads over there. Should be studying more here because it's 299 00:20:30.779 --> 00:20:34.259 working the best, and so that's that's just one example. I really think 300 00:20:34.380 --> 00:20:38.849 that that there are many companies that don't look at it at that level that 301 00:20:40.049 --> 00:20:41.809 really would benefit from doing X. I think it would show them a lot 302 00:20:41.890 --> 00:20:47.130 of interesting stuff about how to approach not only the next couple months of business 303 00:20:47.170 --> 00:20:49.920 forever. You know, as we talked about, I last thing I wanted 304 00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:53.119 to do was like, okay, everybody panic, your marketing budgets about to 305 00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:56.480 be scrutinized. So, like go ring your hands and stand in the corner 306 00:20:56.799 --> 00:21:00.799 you gave people. I mean, if you're a normal two x listener, 307 00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:03.640 you're probably either going to have to hit the back button a couple times or 308 00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:07.069 slow down to one point two or something like. Go back to what Chris 309 00:21:07.190 --> 00:21:10.269 just said. Guys in and check that out. I really like what you 310 00:21:10.349 --> 00:21:14.789 said to about looking at, you know, breaking down that inbound channel, 311 00:21:14.789 --> 00:21:18.150 because there are differences in there. are going to be different close rates, 312 00:21:18.150 --> 00:21:22.180 there are going to be different percentages based on you know where that's directly coming 313 00:21:22.220 --> 00:21:25.779 from. So that's all really good stuff. I love that we loop back 314 00:21:25.819 --> 00:21:27.819 to that. All right, as we close it out, being effective in 315 00:21:27.859 --> 00:21:30.619 those digital channels. You know, if you want to share a couple, 316 00:21:30.859 --> 00:21:34.049 you know on Linkedin, on paid and strategy, something to around out the 317 00:21:34.089 --> 00:21:37.490 conversation, give folks something that they could go and look at how they're doing 318 00:21:37.569 --> 00:21:42.049 it today and and maybe tweak something today, depending on when they're listening to 319 00:21:42.210 --> 00:21:45.450 this. It's Friday now, but I want to say before the weekend. 320 00:21:45.450 --> 00:21:49.480 But anyway, something they can quickly and go take action on it. Yeah, 321 00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:52.200 for sure. So let's we'll kind of think about these as like the 322 00:21:52.279 --> 00:21:56.839 two listeners. So like the way that I think about this is one you 323 00:21:56.960 --> 00:22:02.509 must have a deep understanding of whoever you're trying to sell to, otherwise your 324 00:22:02.549 --> 00:22:06.430 contents not going to hit. So, like I can speak, speak in 325 00:22:06.549 --> 00:22:11.950 a very authoritative, thoughtful way to cemos because I work with a bunch of 326 00:22:11.069 --> 00:22:15.710 them and I've been ahead of marketing at a BB company and I understand them 327 00:22:15.819 --> 00:22:18.299 deeply and I think that I have advice that can be really helpful to them. 328 00:22:18.740 --> 00:22:22.500 Most people that are creating content are not in that position, which is 329 00:22:22.539 --> 00:22:26.579 why the content doesn't work. Step one, and then, I think step 330 00:22:26.700 --> 00:22:30.450 two from there, if you're able to get to that point, is consistency, 331 00:22:30.450 --> 00:22:33.049 which is a place where people do not do not succeed. Content, 332 00:22:33.769 --> 00:22:40.369 especially in an organic social format, works because you do it frequently and consistently, 333 00:22:41.049 --> 00:22:44.319 and so I think you know, posting once a month to Linkedin from 334 00:22:44.359 --> 00:22:47.160 your company page when you have three hundred followers, just not going to get 335 00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:52.799 it done. And so from the consistency is next. So how do you 336 00:22:52.119 --> 00:22:59.509 create a framework where you can create a video, podcast, a written blog, 337 00:23:00.349 --> 00:23:04.150 info graphic, a deck, whatever it is, at least once a 338 00:23:04.150 --> 00:23:07.150 day for every channel that you're trying to play on, which is why I 339 00:23:07.190 --> 00:23:12.220 always recommend for companies to find the number one channel and spend all their time 340 00:23:12.299 --> 00:23:18.140 there until they've exhausted that channel and then expand every other company are not that's 341 00:23:18.180 --> 00:23:22.660 an overstatement. A lot of people try and cover every channel really poorly instead 342 00:23:22.660 --> 00:23:26.539 of just doing one channel really well. There's always one or two channels that 343 00:23:26.579 --> 00:23:29.130 are have the greatest up side. Linked in this one of them, especially 344 00:23:29.130 --> 00:23:33.609 in bb right now. And so like consistency. And the last one that 345 00:23:33.690 --> 00:23:37.170 I think this is probably the most actionable out of the out of the everything, 346 00:23:37.450 --> 00:23:44.119 is go back into all of your existing content and figure out how to 347 00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:48.079 repurpose it or reignite it. Take a blog, take three quotes from that, 348 00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:52.200 build a quote card and then you have three posts a day on Linkedin, 349 00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:57.509 because all the contents already been created just needs to be reformatted and distributed 350 00:23:57.549 --> 00:24:03.230 appropriately. And so that's another one. Is like that old case study that 351 00:24:03.269 --> 00:24:07.109 you had, that old interview? Can you clip that old thirty minute interview 352 00:24:07.549 --> 00:24:11.380 into ten different one minute clips and push those out over linked in in a 353 00:24:11.460 --> 00:24:15.339 consistent fashion? And the last one is, if the content is good, 354 00:24:15.859 --> 00:24:18.740 how do you figure out how to put media behind it to get all the 355 00:24:18.819 --> 00:24:23.140 other people that haven't seen it yet to see it? Job Title, targeted, 356 00:24:23.410 --> 00:24:26.130 skill based, targeted, feel to study based, started to like the 357 00:24:26.210 --> 00:24:30.410 linkedin targeting is just crazy. It's expensive. M A CPIM standpoint. If 358 00:24:30.450 --> 00:24:33.730 you can get to them on facebook, maybe that'd be better, or facebook 359 00:24:33.730 --> 00:24:37.450 or Instagram, but if we're focused on Linkedin, it's like if you have 360 00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:42.319 a video or a post or a piece of content or something that's working. 361 00:24:44.160 --> 00:24:48.200 How do you amplify it with media spend that you have left over from the 362 00:24:48.359 --> 00:24:51.480 trade show that did the booth that didn't happen or the field marketing events that 363 00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:53.910 didn't happen or the other expenses have been shut down? How do you put 364 00:24:53.910 --> 00:24:57.509 a thousand dollars down a piece of contents working to get that in front of, 365 00:24:57.950 --> 00:25:02.029 you know, Twentyzero more people that are like the people that have already 366 00:25:02.029 --> 00:25:07.029 engaged with it and and accelerate the fact that consumption and the awareness and all 367 00:25:07.069 --> 00:25:08.900 the other things do the funnel that we're talking about? Oh Man, so 368 00:25:10.099 --> 00:25:11.900 good. Just a couple of resources. I want to mention two folks that 369 00:25:11.980 --> 00:25:15.619 we can put in the show notes that that go off of these, because 370 00:25:15.740 --> 00:25:18.220 you mentioned kind of three specific things here, Chris. To Take Action on 371 00:25:18.299 --> 00:25:23.369 one, you've got to make sure your understanding your audience and your buyers better 372 00:25:23.490 --> 00:25:29.289 than ever right now. If content you really is your way forward to stay 373 00:25:29.410 --> 00:25:32.970 in front of them, with events canceled and and everything else. A couple 374 00:25:33.009 --> 00:25:36.680 of resources. James and I did an episode in our behind the curtain series 375 00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:41.559 about our SEO strategy. Lots of people refer to it as Google alphabet soup, 376 00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:45.920 a way to look at and leverage Google's auto suggest to look at search 377 00:25:45.960 --> 00:25:48.000 volume, in addition to a lot of the other tools that folks are used 378 00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:52.549 out there. We also did an episode in our why podcast work series where 379 00:25:52.549 --> 00:25:57.750 John Rougie talked about how hosting a podcast helped to refine messaging because he was 380 00:25:57.829 --> 00:26:02.990 talking to people in a new space when when he switched industries. Now you 381 00:26:03.029 --> 00:26:06.019 don't necessarily have to have a podcast that, but if you are a marketer, 382 00:26:06.819 --> 00:26:11.099 find a way to interview your best customers. Find a way to interview 383 00:26:11.099 --> 00:26:14.420 your best prospects, whether it's a podcast hopping on a zoom call, whether 384 00:26:14.460 --> 00:26:17.180 you record it and then use it for a podcast later, which kind of 385 00:26:17.539 --> 00:26:21.210 goes to your point, Chris, about repurposing stuff and then look at your 386 00:26:21.450 --> 00:26:25.690 existing library of content. We just did a website overhaul and we're looking at 387 00:26:25.690 --> 00:26:29.769 a lot of our core pieces of content. One of those on our content 388 00:26:29.849 --> 00:26:33.000 waterfall strategy, might be helpful for some folks who will link to that, 389 00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:36.880 because it falls in line with what you're talking about there, and I just 390 00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:41.119 can't reiterate enough. You know it just in our own experience what we're seeing. 391 00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:42.920 It lines up with what you're talking about, Chris. You know, 392 00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:48.470 for a long time here at Sweet Fish we've been obviously very consistent on the 393 00:26:48.509 --> 00:26:52.430 podcast on BB growth being daily there linkedin. You know, other channels are 394 00:26:52.549 --> 00:26:57.869 not as much of priority, but we've seen that being very consistent in podcasts 395 00:26:57.950 --> 00:27:02.180 and being very consistent on Linkedin we're able to reach our folks. Now, 396 00:27:02.299 --> 00:27:06.059 those might not be the channels for you, but find that that top channel, 397 00:27:06.059 --> 00:27:10.980 find those top two and make them work together in any way possible. 398 00:27:11.339 --> 00:27:12.539 Man, Chris, I could chat with you all day. We might have 399 00:27:12.660 --> 00:27:18.450 to come back to that event attributional conversation another time. We could possibly have 400 00:27:18.569 --> 00:27:22.730 you on the BB sales show. I know you are consistently putting out stuff 401 00:27:22.849 --> 00:27:26.450 on for the sales side of the house. This has been a fantastic conversation. 402 00:27:26.690 --> 00:27:29.250 Thank you so much. We'll have to find several ways to slice and 403 00:27:29.329 --> 00:27:33.440 diise this and share it for anybody listening to this who wants to ask you 404 00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:37.960 some follow up questions on the funnel breakdown that you did or follow along with 405 00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:41.200 your content. What are the top channels? What's the best way to stay 406 00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:44.119 connected with you? Man? Yeah, the best way to get me is 407 00:27:44.279 --> 00:27:49.430 to d me on Linkedin. I try to get every every message that is 408 00:27:49.549 --> 00:27:52.670 thoughtful and not asking for me to go to take a demo or something like 409 00:27:52.789 --> 00:27:55.950 that is I try to get to every single one of them. So if 410 00:27:55.950 --> 00:27:57.619 you have something that a question that if it's a little bit deeper, we 411 00:27:57.660 --> 00:28:00.259 can set up like a ten minute call and just go through and help you. 412 00:28:00.339 --> 00:28:03.619 Awesome man. Thank you for that offer for listeners today and thank you 413 00:28:03.779 --> 00:28:08.019 for dropping some really tactical content for folks in light of everything that's going on. 414 00:28:08.420 --> 00:28:11.380 Really appreciate you being on the show, Christ thank you. Welgome. 415 00:28:11.460 --> 00:28:15.930 Everyone to stay, stay, say can stay healthy. Talk soon. I 416 00:28:17.130 --> 00:28:21.490 hate it when podcasts incessantly ask their listeners for reviews, but I get why 417 00:28:21.490 --> 00:28:25.490 they do it, because reviews are enormously helpful when you're trying to grow podcast 418 00:28:25.529 --> 00:28:27.880 audience. So here's what we decided to do. If you leave a review 419 00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:32.559 for be to be growth and apple podcasts and email me a screenshot of the 420 00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:36.880 review to James at Sweet Fish Mediacom, I'll send you a signed copy of 421 00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:40.720 my new book, content based networking, how to instantly connect with anyone you 422 00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:42.670 want to know. We get a review, you get a free book. 423 00:28:44.029 --> 00:28:44.630 We both win