Transcript
WEBVTT
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Before we get into today's episode,
we wanted to let you know about another
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podcast you may want to check out, the sales podcast with West Shaffer.
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West, who's known as the sales
whisper, helps salespeople everywhere generate more in
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bound sales that close faster, easier, at higher margins, with less dress
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and more fun. Our favorite episode
on his show is titled Why you need
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to build for the next procession.
Check it out and find the sales podcast
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wherever you do your podcast listening.
All right, let's get into the show.
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Welcome back to be to be growth. I'm Logan lyles with sweet fish
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media. I'm here today with Karen
Bell and Tony. She's a growth strategist
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and executive coach and the host of
the crazy busy podcast. Karen, welcome
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to the show today. Hello,
Logan. How are you? I am
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doing fantastic. Thank you so much
for joining me. I'm excited to have
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you on the show. We're going
to be talking about how often, as
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leaders, we don't realize that our
team is operating out of fear and what
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to do about that. Before we
get into the strategies and tactics you're going
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to share today, Karen give listeners
a little bit of context for folks who
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aren't familiar with you. What are
you up to these days? What's a
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little bit about your background to share
for context? Sounds good. I am
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a growth strategist and an executive coach. I also have a podcast called crazy
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busy, which is sort of my
favorite topic right now, the crazy busy
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crisis that we're in, and for
many years I've been helping companies grow from
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the inside out through their human development
right. So there are people who come
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in and work with your marketing and
your finances and I kind of work with
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people. I think training is for
puppies and people need to be developed,
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and some of the work I've been
lucky enough to do are with really edgy
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and early adopter type executives who realize
there is no separation anymore between, especially
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for millennials, which are the first
generation of people to have no separation between
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who they are as humans and their
work. They're waking up with their phones
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right next to them, and so
that we need to put those boundaries back
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in place and help them with some
of the best practices that have always worked
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before, as well as some new
technology for understanding who they are and why
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we need a little more separation between
who we are as people and how we
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work in order to optimize all of
it. Absolutely. So that's going to
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be one of the key topics for
today's conversation, is optimization, moving your
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team away from fear responses and operating
and making decisions out of fear and negative
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emotions and moving them into a place
where they can operate out of their executive
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function. I think we're going to
unpack that term if it's a new one
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to some listeners. Let's start before
we get into some of the tactics,
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care and and talk about what is
this problem? Why is fear such a
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big issue for you when you talk
to leaders in how they're developing, not
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training. I love that analogy.
There and that, and that the lineation.
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Why is this an issue for leaders
in their teams? Well, it's
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funny because last week I was talking
to a senior executive who's got a big,
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hyper focus, fast paced marketing division
of a company and he said kind
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of frustrated to me, why do
we need to teach adults how to communicate
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with one another? And I don't
think we've ever had four generations of people
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in the workforce together. They all
have different styles, modalities and ways they
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present best and I think for millennials
in particular, who I've been coaching for
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the past five years, I find
that, you know, they're just isn't
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a safe way for them to communicate
how they feel without risking too much personal
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information. So they really don't know
where the lines are and where the boundaries
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are, and so straddling that can
sometimes trigger them into the part of the
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brain known as the Amygdala. So
it's not a conscious thing. It's not
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like people are walking around going we're
in a culture of fear or you know,
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there's a lot of fear at our
company where people are mean. So
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there's fear. It's an unconscious response
out of the executive function, which is,
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you say, will unpack and into
this back part of the brain called
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the and make dealt the fight or
flight response is most people commonly know it.
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Yeah, absolutely. I love that
you alluded to that, because we're
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going to be talking about how can
you identify when your team is operating out
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of fear, because it can come
in really four distinct ways. Before we
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do that, though, as we
were talking about, Karen, let's unpack
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this idea of, you know,
moving from the back of the brain to
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the front of the brain, helping
your team operate out of their executive function.
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Tell us a little bit about this
term and unpack it for folks to
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which you know this might be someone
of a new term. Sure so.
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Some some people are familiar with this
term because they have children who've gotten stuck
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at school where they there get a
diagnosis or a label of adhd add or
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Dyslexia, meaning they are not able
to stay in the front part of the
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brain, the prefrontal Cortex, they
are not using or optimizing their executive function.
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Other people have just heard it thrown
around, but what it really means,
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in the way I look at it, as we have three brains and
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we've grown these brains over time and
our evolution. This is a very simplistic
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way to explain it, because I'm
neither a neuroscientist nor an evolutionary expert.
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But the first part of the brain, people call the Lizard Brain or the
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monkey brain, is really there for
one purpose. It's not there for pleasure,
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it's not there for learning, it's
not there for going to shows,
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it's not there for multitasking. It's
there to tell us that we're safe or
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we're not safe. We either need
to send cortis all to our gut so
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we can run as fast as we
can or, you know, we're okay
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and we're safe and we can be
present. So that part of our brain
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is a place we lived for much
of our evolution. In fact, I
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say this sadly. You know,
until about forty years ago, and still
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true in many parts of the world, women weren't safe without a man,
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you know, just walking down the
street or in life, choosing maybe not
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to be coupled up. They were
labeled, made fun of or threatened physically.
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So we've spent a lot of time
in our evolution just living in that
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part of the brain. It's not
unlikely to think that we're easily triggered,
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especially with the lack of space,
which I'll talk about in a minute,
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in our lives. So the second
part of the brain is the emotional brain,
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or the limbic brain. This is
sort of the part that grew over
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and is present in cats, dogs, horses, you know, animals that
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are commonly our pets, because they
have an emotional component. And neither of
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these places are where you want to
sit at work right. You don't want
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to be crying in a meeting and
you don't want to be running from the
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conference room because someone asks you a
question you can answer. You want to
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be calm and sitting in the front
part of your brain called the prefrontal Cortex,
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and that is where the executive function
sits. The executive function allows US
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humans, which is how we have
evolved as fantastically as we have. I've
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been looking out my window here in
New York City the buildings and the planes
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and the technology, and it's mind
blowing. You know, we've been able
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to do that. Cats and dogs
can't. Why we have this other part
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of the brain, and so this
part of the brain allows us to make
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decisions and allows US discernment. It
is where we're creative and we collaborate.
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It's how we can plan well,
and so it's why it's a trigger for
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developmental experts when children aren't able to
use these these attributes very well. So
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in our society, where we have
lost the ability to create space, space
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between who we are as people and
who we are at work, where meetings
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are stacked one after the other,
after the other after the other, I
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like to say where we have no
space, we have a terrible pace and
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that equals no grace. So they
love that. Yeah, it's really unbelievable
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when I think back to like going
to work in one thousand nine hundred and
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ninety and I had these really big
closets with lots of clothes and I had
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a wall of clothes that were maybe
for going to the club and I had
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some clothes that were for going to
really nice functions and weddings and black tie
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events, and I had a wall
of clothes that I went to work in
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and there were suits and matching shoes
and and you know, it was sort
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of a uniform and when you put
on your work clothes and you left your
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house, you were in work mode
yet, but when you swung the door
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open to your building, you shift
it into a different part of the brain.
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It was really profouund to have that
space. We nobody called you on
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your home phone at nine o'clock at
night or ten o'clock at night, and
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before computers, we had in and
out boxes. So work would come in
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once a day, maybe twice.
It would go out once a day.
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Now it's just coming in and going
out constantly. So we have no space.
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We have a bad pace, phrenetic
pace, and are losing our grace.
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Yeah, absolutely. That's such a
great breakdown and again, you know,
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just like you, I'm no neuroscientist, but I think that was a
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really sequential breakdown of the parts of
our brain. Let's jump into, especially
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for leaders, these tactics of helping
people get to that operating out of the
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executive function, as you mentioned earlier, it starts by being able to identify
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when they're operating out of fear,
which comes in in four different kind of
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unique situations that you can identify.
Talk US through those four, how to
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identify them, and then we'll come
back Karen in what do you do in
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each of those four situations? Hey, cool. I call them the fear
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responses, the for fear responses,
because I started to see them in the
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coaching I was doing and I would
have somebody tell me, you know,
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the zoom screen would open and there'd
be a young woman hysterical telling me about
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this awful boss that she had and
how mean she was, and and then
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I would, you know, see
the zoom screen open the next day and
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it was the boss and she seemed
pretty nice to me, you know.
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So that's the other thing. You
know, my fear responses are going to
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be different than someone else's and the
way I respond to other people when they're
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in fear is going to be different
than the way you might so you know,
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I have a little story to illustrate
this, which is that I was
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at a big event, to beautiful
gala here in New York and it was
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weeks and months of prep and it
was it was a very fancy party and
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lots of celebrities and kind of thing
you really look forward to. And when
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we got to the event, I
was separated from the person I went with
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because of these table cards the names
weren't right and so my name apparently wasn't
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on a card and the person who
was responsible for doing the cards was sitting
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two people away from me. And
as I started chatting up the young lady
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next to me and we were doing
the you know, I love your dress,
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I love your dress routine, I
noticed this woman glaring at me and
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with fear in her eyes and and, you know, dare I say hatred?
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I had never seen her in my
life and she said to me,
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who are you and I said well, I'm Karen and as any frightened person
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would do. I said Hi,
I'm Karen, and that's a little intimidating
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even for a powerful lady like myself. And so she glared at me and
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started shaking her head and said I
there's no care in here, there's no
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careen here. You don't belong here, and she stood up and yelled.
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She was hysterical. Karen doesn't belong
here, Karen. And when I tell
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this story to a group of male
executives, you know, people cover their
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face because we're all running around with
programs that we were dealt before we were
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eight years old, and then in
this horrible invention called middle school, we
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got us a lot of social programs. And so I don't care who you
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are, ninety five percent of you
have a program called you don't belong here
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that you would react very strongly to. It came from the lunch room seating
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in middle school. So so yeah, little lugans going up. I remember
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that one. So it was pretty
horrifying. I ended up leaning over touching
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her very gently on the arm.
I could see that she was in fighter
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flight fear and she was in the
fight response. And so we I said,
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why don't we walk over to the
table and get your get clear on
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the fact that I do sit here
and this is my table, and now
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my date is run around the table
and is saying, you know, you
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don't need to do this, what's
wrong with her? And I said nothing's
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wrong, we're all going to go
together and we took twenty steps over to
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the table and the lady that checked
me and said yes, Miss Bellent Tony,
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you you're at table three, and
she kept shaking her head and she's
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very upset and someone had told me
later, who was a close friend of
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hers, that she'd actually been abducted
in the country that she's from and held
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against her will for months and she
had ignored her intuition at the time of
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the abduction and since then she brings
place cards to fancy parties and puts name
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cards around to control her and vironment
and because she actually had made a mistake,
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put someone else's name twice and not
my name. But what I think
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happens every day is that people are
reaction. That is a very dramatic story
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and we just don't ever know what
someone's been through. And since I do
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this sort of holistic executive coaching where
I get to know who people really are
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and what their patterns and programs are. I can tell you most people in
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your company have dramatic stories too,
from their childhoods that can be very easily
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triggered because they've had no space.
They woke up with their testosterone high,
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they've looked at their phone and they've
engaged and they're never turning off, they're
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never resting the brain, and so
they're using up the energy they get in
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the front of their brain and they're
triggering the fear response from exhaustion, from
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stress, from frustration, and it
opens up old wounds that are really inappropriate
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to share at work, and so
nobody understands why people behave the way they
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do. Hey, everybody, Logan
with sweetish here. If you've been listening
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to the show for a while,
you know we're big proponents of putting out
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original, organic content on linked but
one thing that's always been a struggle for
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a team like ours is to easily
track the reach of that linkedin content.
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That's why I was really be excited
when I heard about shield the other day
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from a connection on you guessed it, linked in. Since our team started
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using shield, I've loved how it's
let us easily track and analyze the performance
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of our linkedin content without having to
manually log it ourselves. It automatically creates
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All one word. All right, let's
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get back to the show. Yeah, so that sort of you know,
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you might not see yelling and standing
up and screaming to the room, but
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that sort of combat of nature,
you know as indicative of number one,
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that that fight response. You know, I kind of thought we might we
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might summarize them all and then come
back to what to do, but I
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think it might make sense care and
just you know it tell us a little
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bit about what you did in that
situation, what leaders can do either learning
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from that situation or common way to
deal with that, that fight response,
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since we're since we're right here on
this one, and that story so fresh
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right. Yeah, it's fresh,
and you know, I I could pat
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myself on the back and say how
well I handled that, but the truth
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is it was a friend of mine's
event and he was up on stage and
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the last thing I wanted was for
him to look in the audience to see
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a girl fight or a commotion and
and maybe started it. So I was,
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I was really in a very grounded
state. I did not allow my
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fear response, which in that situation
might have been fight. Right, there
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could have been a horrible fight at
the table wrote a ruined everyone's evening.
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I could have run away and avoided
and sat with other people or found a
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security guard to get her in trouble. Frequently that's what flight people do.
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I could have frozen and fear,
I could have become a fawner, but
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I stayed calm because I realized this
woman is in a situation called the fear
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response and it obviously is nothing to
do with me. So I was able
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to diffuse the situation first and then
communicate with her. You must diffuse the
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heat with fight people. You cannot
attempt to be reasonable with someone who's in
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an emotional state. Yeah, I
love that. I've seen that as a
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parent. Just kind of that.
Wait, hold on a second. Do
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I really think you know that that
eight or ten year old who's just so
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upset it's just going to listen to
my reason because I'm I'm the dead.
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No, you've got to use before
you can communicate. I love that.
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I think that holds true as much
for parents as it does for leaders and
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the work I scaren, and I
hope your wife's listening because she can use
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this tactic with you as well.
But I mean it works in marriages,
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it works kid absolutely. It's a
relationship skills. Isn't just about your marketing
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director or your creative director having a
fit. And very often fight people are
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not seen as fear, in fear. No one would assume someone beats their
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chest and yells and screens is in
fear, but they are. They're scared,
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they're afraids, a real billier,
Karen. Yes, they're afraid of
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failure, they're afraid of looking bad. You know, there's a creative director
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that I coach who would lose it
if the team didn't show up and people
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just got so afraid of him they'd
start failing because they were also afraid of
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getting yelled at. Maybe they had
a dad who did that and he would
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just say to me, I just
am so a fair afraid of losing this
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account and they're not as committed as
I am. And I said, you
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know, there's just a breakdown in
the way you say it. If,
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instead of you yelling, you stopped
and said, you guys, I don't
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know what to do, I'm really
scared and I need your help. Yeah,
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you know, that moment of openness
could change everything. Yeah, I
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love the way your story just unpacks
that. Let's talk about that the next
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three. So we've got fight and
then we've touched a little bit on flight,
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freeze and Fawn. Give us some
some strategies to identify these next three
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as we go through them, Karen, and what folks can do when you
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identify them. Yeah, the flight
people are seen as highly productive. So
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that's because when they're scared, they
believe that the path to safety is by
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getting a lot of thing done,
and so they will run back to their
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desk, put their head down and
check stuff off a list, almost like
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camouflage. They don't want to be
seen. They will not respond in a
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meeting, sometimes because they don't have
the answer. So what I've had to
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teach flight people is you need to
put a communication piece in between running away
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and standing there. They're just says, kind of a thinker. You know
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I'm a thoughtful person. I want
to get back to you, but being
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put on the spot is challenging for
me right. So these I just had
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a coaching session this morning with a
gal and I advised her about a flight
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person, to give him the questions
for the meeting before the meeting. Let
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him prepare, let him think through, because you're going to get the most
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out of him that way. He's
not an on the spot guy and he's
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too afraid of saying or doing the
wrong thing. So he'll clam right up
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and typically leaf depart, even if
he's physically still present. You'll look here
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checked out. Yeah, so if
you've got someone that you identify, you
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know that that flight response. It
could be them physically leaving. It could
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also just be them mentally or emotionally
checking out of the situation. You want
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to give them as much advanced notice
and preparation so that they don't feel put
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on the spot. I think that's
that's great. I seen any lady that's
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confronted or man about an issue that
he's likely guilty of, than he will,
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if he's guilty, actually, then
he will grab his phone and start
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trying to check messages. I've seen
it on the subway. I've seen teenagers
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come on the subway and and be
sort of menacing and I've sort of seeing
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these guys in suits who know they
should kind of speak up or lend some
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substance to the situation. They're in
fear and they are pretending, YEP,
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they're in the wild, to the
to the phone as something to distract them.
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Yeah, I think that that's really
interesting to think about. I think
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there are some subtleties here where you
can recognize, recognize the difference, give
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them opportunity, and ample opportunity,
to be able to respond. Number number
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three is freeze. How can I
assume that this can look a little bit
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similar to flight, because flight doesn't
always mean physically leaving, and so therefore
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tell us a little bit about recognizing
the difference between a flight and a frieze
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response and what to do about it. You know, it's interesting people who
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go into fight sometimes their secondary mode. And what I do in training that
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I conduct at companies is I give
everyone a test so they can see what
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their primary and secondary is. They
can see what they're co workers primary is,
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they can see how their boss is
and we can start creating common language
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so that they're you know, because
none of these are right or wrong,
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they just are and it's it should
be a lot easier to handle someone when
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you know where they're coming from rather
than guessing and freeze people are the hardest
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people to coach. They are almost
if you think about a chess game,
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they're they're paralyzed like the deer in
the headlight right and so you know what
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happens to the deer every time they
get paralyzed, and so they just can't
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move because any move to them is
seen as risky, and so they will
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complain a lot of times they go
silent. They are frequently people that get
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lost in video games that work.
Add is a strategy for them. multitasking
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is a strategy for them. To
I should say, yes, multitasking is
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a strategy for them to be able
to move out of the frieze a little
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bit because they're there. That paralyzed
and I had a client once who,
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just you know, was being abused
by her boyfriend and when I made the
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suggestion that what would it be like
if she asked him to move, she
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went down a whole path of decisions
she couldn't be sure of. You know,
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I need to get a raise so
I could stay in my apartment and
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I if I couldn't stay in my
apartment, I'd only be able to stay
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there a year and if I had
to move in a year, I don't
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have any friends who can help me
move. And so she couldn't let go
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of an abusive boyfriend because she couldn't
see how she'd move out of her apartment
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which was six steps away. And
so freeze people are typically in jobs they
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don't like. They're often bullied,
sadly, they're often made fun of or
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talked about behind their back. They're
the last people at the office every day
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because it's a little safer and easier
to get things done when no one's around.
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They just literally don't feel safe around
people. HMM, yeah, that
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makes a lot of sense and I
think you've given us some very good clues
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to kind of pick up on.
What are some things you can do to
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enable these folks that have that have
that freeze response or tend to, I
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00:26:07.660 --> 00:26:11.420
don't want to label and put people
into buckets, but tend to operate out
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of that freeze response? First,
most often, give them a small,
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small, small baby step, and
I mean if someone's in my office and
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they get into a frozen state,
if they are about to maybe hear some
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00:26:26.769 --> 00:26:32.650
negative information and go into a frozen
state, don't keep piling on. Stop
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and get them to try to move
their body right. So one of the
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00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:41.319
things you could say, you can't
go. You know, hey, Logan,
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let's go step outside and get some
fresh air. It's too far.
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Yeah, you know, I could
say, Hey, let's stand up,
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kind of shake her arms for a
minute and stand up and loosen up,
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get out of the chair, and
then I might say why don't we step
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over to the sliding door and keep
chatting and I'm chatting. Of course they're
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frozen. And then I might say
let's step out into the common area and
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sit on the sofa out there,
or let's step out into the common area
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and see if we can get a
drink of water and then I might be
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00:27:15.890 --> 00:27:21.930
steps and changing the physical environment can
can kind of provide a little bit of
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an unlocked because they don't see a
way forward and so they're in this this
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mental paradigm and sometimes the physical can
impact the the mental. I really like
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that tip. And as we steps, get them, it's like diffusing the
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fight person. M Yeah, it's
now. Then, when they're out of
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that state, you can have a
conversation right again. It's kind of a
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one two step. You've got to
address the emotion before you can you can
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have a continue with the logical conversation
and then the next steps. All right.
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Well, as we wrap it up
today, care and tell us about
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the fourth one, identifying the fallen
response. What to do about it,
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as we wrap up this great conversation
today. Well, this is this is
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a person you might see more than
any other at the office and it's the
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one people here the least about.
So fawners, if you think about,
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you know, fawning all over somebody, believe that in order to be safe
361
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in any relationship, they must meet
the needs of everyone else but themselves.
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So they're pleasers, their codependents,
their yes people, and so if a
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faunner works for you and is in
a position of especially like a coordinator or
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like a traffic person or a you
know, a team member who is responsible
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for a lot of admin for different
executives or just somebody who has to answer
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00:28:45.509 --> 00:28:49.910
to a lot of people, and
you see them always saying yes, you
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need to stop them, because what
happens is they keep saying yes, they
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flip into the Amygdala and then they
don't get anything done because they get overwhelmed
369
00:29:00.660 --> 00:29:06.259
and overburdened and in there's a podcast
I did call the price of your perfectionism
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00:29:07.660 --> 00:29:11.970
on my crazy busy show that has
a free download that shows you the cycle
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of this type of person and what
they go through. And they put themselves
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almost into a terrified state where they
have this forced flow state to get out
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of the situation. But they lose
a lot of time and a lot of
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productivity worrying in and stressing that they
can't get things done and they procrastinate.
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So they need to be highly organized. When you give them something and they
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say yes, automatically say you know, look at your schedule, make sure
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you can say yes. Make sure
you don't need to give me a project
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back in order to say yes to
this, because I know you're busy.
379
00:29:51.390 --> 00:29:53.059
So how can you say yes to
this one? I've asked for it by
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Friday? Yeah, and are several
things there. You're validating their value,
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00:29:57.539 --> 00:30:02.940
which is addressing some of this.
You're giving them the expectation. You know,
382
00:30:02.980 --> 00:30:06.619
I heard a great episode on the
Craig Grow Shell podcast recently about you
383
00:30:06.740 --> 00:30:10.490
know, our team members, especially
if they're our direct reports, will take
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everything as urgent unless we give them
the opportunity to say hey, if you
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00:30:14.650 --> 00:30:17.730
need to say no to this right
now, that's okay. I'm not saying
386
00:30:17.730 --> 00:30:19.250
you have to do this, I'm
asking you. Can you do yes?
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00:30:19.609 --> 00:30:22.000
So I want to yes or a
no. I don't just want to yes.
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00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:26.720
And here's kind of my expected,
you know, timeframe on this.
389
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This is not a this week project, this is a three month project or
390
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this is, you know, a
two week project. One can you do
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00:30:32.920 --> 00:30:37.789
this and to is that timeline acceptable
and making it abundantly clear, especially if
392
00:30:37.829 --> 00:30:41.670
you're in a remote team and you're
communicating this over email or slack. There's
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different conversation about when should you communicate
that facetoface or over a video conference versus
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00:30:47.509 --> 00:30:49.059
not? But those are some of
the things. I'm here and you say
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00:30:49.059 --> 00:30:53.059
they're Karen. Yes, agreed,
and remote teams are a whole other topic
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00:30:53.099 --> 00:30:56.859
around. Yes, absolutely awesome.
Well, Karen, this has been a
397
00:30:56.940 --> 00:31:00.819
great conversation. I think you've given
us some great tips to identify these four
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00:31:00.940 --> 00:31:06.410
different types of fear responses and what
to do about them, whether we're leading
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00:31:06.410 --> 00:31:11.049
a marketing team or any other sort
of team or organization. Karen, if
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anybody listening to this has enjoyed this
conversation as much as I have, what's
401
00:31:15.569 --> 00:31:18.079
the best way for them to reach
out to you? Stay connected, find
402
00:31:18.119 --> 00:31:22.359
your podcast take any next step that
they'd like to from here? Great.
403
00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:29.279
My podcast is available on Itunes,
spotify and just about anywhere you could find
404
00:31:29.319 --> 00:31:33.630
a podcast, including good pods,
which is a brand new platform that I
405
00:31:33.670 --> 00:31:37.470
want to give a shout out to. Also, you can find me on
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00:31:37.589 --> 00:31:41.349
Linkedin. You at Karen Bell and
Tony. We can put my info in
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00:31:41.390 --> 00:31:47.619
the show notes. My website is
Karen Bill and tonycom and my email is
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00:31:47.700 --> 00:31:51.940
Karen at Karen Bell and tonycom.
So love it easy enough. Well,
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00:31:51.940 --> 00:31:53.859
Karen, I appreciate it. I've
listened to a few episodes of your show
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I like this is synced Solo episode
formats where you're sharing some things you know
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00:31:59.859 --> 00:32:02.690
fresh from your coaching sessions and things
like that. So definitely encourage people to
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check that out here and this has
been a great conversation. Than so much
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00:32:06.849 --> 00:32:09.250
for joining me on the show today. Have a great day you too.
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00:32:12.690 --> 00:32:16.079
I hate it when podcasts incessantly ask
their listeners for reviews, but I get
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00:32:16.079 --> 00:32:20.759
why they do it, because reviews
are enormously helpful when you're trying to grow
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00:32:20.759 --> 00:32:23.200
a podcast audience. So here's what
we decided to do. If you leave
417
00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:28.039
a review for me to be growth
and apple podcasts and email me a screenshot
418
00:32:28.119 --> 00:32:31.029
of the review to James at Sweet
Fish Mediacom, I'll send you a signed
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00:32:31.109 --> 00:32:35.789
copy of my new book, content
based networking, how to instantly connect with
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00:32:35.910 --> 00:32:37.950
anyone you want to know. We
get a review, you get a free
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00:32:37.990 --> 00:32:39.230
book. We both win.