March 20, 2020

1231: The 4 Fear Responses Every Leader Should Recognize (& How to Handle Them) w/ Karin Bellantoni

In this episode we talk to , Growth Strategist & Executive Coach, and the Host of the . To find the other podcast we recommended in today's episode, check out  on Apple Podcasts or wherever you do your listening! Are you able...

In this episode we talk to Karin Bellantoni, Growth Strategist & Executive Coach, and the Host of the Crazy Busy Podcast.


To find the other podcast we recommended in today's episode, check out The Sales Podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you do your listening!


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Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.910 --> 00:00:12.349 Before we get into today's episode, we wanted to let you know about another 2 00:00:12.390 --> 00:00:16.269 podcast you may want to check out, the sales podcast with West Shaffer. 3 00:00:16.589 --> 00:00:21.539 West, who's known as the sales whisper, helps salespeople everywhere generate more in 4 00:00:21.739 --> 00:00:26.379 bound sales that close faster, easier, at higher margins, with less dress 5 00:00:26.539 --> 00:00:30.739 and more fun. Our favorite episode on his show is titled Why you need 6 00:00:30.780 --> 00:00:35.579 to build for the next procession. Check it out and find the sales podcast 7 00:00:35.619 --> 00:00:39.009 wherever you do your podcast listening. All right, let's get into the show. 8 00:00:42.210 --> 00:00:45.130 Welcome back to be to be growth. I'm Logan lyles with sweet fish 9 00:00:45.210 --> 00:00:49.170 media. I'm here today with Karen Bell and Tony. She's a growth strategist 10 00:00:49.250 --> 00:00:53.240 and executive coach and the host of the crazy busy podcast. Karen, welcome 11 00:00:53.240 --> 00:00:56.679 to the show today. Hello, Logan. How are you? I am 12 00:00:56.759 --> 00:01:00.200 doing fantastic. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm excited to have 13 00:01:00.320 --> 00:01:02.960 you on the show. We're going to be talking about how often, as 14 00:01:03.000 --> 00:01:06.950 leaders, we don't realize that our team is operating out of fear and what 15 00:01:07.189 --> 00:01:11.150 to do about that. Before we get into the strategies and tactics you're going 16 00:01:11.150 --> 00:01:14.310 to share today, Karen give listeners a little bit of context for folks who 17 00:01:14.310 --> 00:01:15.989 aren't familiar with you. What are you up to these days? What's a 18 00:01:17.030 --> 00:01:21.299 little bit about your background to share for context? Sounds good. I am 19 00:01:21.340 --> 00:01:26.459 a growth strategist and an executive coach. I also have a podcast called crazy 20 00:01:26.540 --> 00:01:30.219 busy, which is sort of my favorite topic right now, the crazy busy 21 00:01:30.340 --> 00:01:37.689 crisis that we're in, and for many years I've been helping companies grow from 22 00:01:37.730 --> 00:01:44.689 the inside out through their human development right. So there are people who come 23 00:01:44.730 --> 00:01:49.359 in and work with your marketing and your finances and I kind of work with 24 00:01:49.799 --> 00:01:55.120 people. I think training is for puppies and people need to be developed, 25 00:01:55.400 --> 00:02:00.159 and some of the work I've been lucky enough to do are with really edgy 26 00:02:00.670 --> 00:02:08.629 and early adopter type executives who realize there is no separation anymore between, especially 27 00:02:08.710 --> 00:02:15.229 for millennials, which are the first generation of people to have no separation between 28 00:02:15.270 --> 00:02:19.259 who they are as humans and their work. They're waking up with their phones 29 00:02:19.300 --> 00:02:23.939 right next to them, and so that we need to put those boundaries back 30 00:02:23.979 --> 00:02:28.580 in place and help them with some of the best practices that have always worked 31 00:02:28.620 --> 00:02:34.569 before, as well as some new technology for understanding who they are and why 32 00:02:34.810 --> 00:02:38.250 we need a little more separation between who we are as people and how we 33 00:02:38.449 --> 00:02:43.689 work in order to optimize all of it. Absolutely. So that's going to 34 00:02:43.729 --> 00:02:49.319 be one of the key topics for today's conversation, is optimization, moving your 35 00:02:49.439 --> 00:02:54.439 team away from fear responses and operating and making decisions out of fear and negative 36 00:02:54.439 --> 00:02:59.789 emotions and moving them into a place where they can operate out of their executive 37 00:02:59.789 --> 00:03:01.710 function. I think we're going to unpack that term if it's a new one 38 00:03:01.870 --> 00:03:06.789 to some listeners. Let's start before we get into some of the tactics, 39 00:03:06.909 --> 00:03:09.389 care and and talk about what is this problem? Why is fear such a 40 00:03:09.469 --> 00:03:14.300 big issue for you when you talk to leaders in how they're developing, not 41 00:03:14.500 --> 00:03:17.259 training. I love that analogy. There and that, and that the lineation. 42 00:03:17.900 --> 00:03:22.139 Why is this an issue for leaders in their teams? Well, it's 43 00:03:22.180 --> 00:03:27.370 funny because last week I was talking to a senior executive who's got a big, 44 00:03:28.090 --> 00:03:35.409 hyper focus, fast paced marketing division of a company and he said kind 45 00:03:35.449 --> 00:03:38.370 of frustrated to me, why do we need to teach adults how to communicate 46 00:03:38.530 --> 00:03:44.639 with one another? And I don't think we've ever had four generations of people 47 00:03:45.240 --> 00:03:51.120 in the workforce together. They all have different styles, modalities and ways they 48 00:03:51.439 --> 00:03:57.909 present best and I think for millennials in particular, who I've been coaching for 49 00:03:57.990 --> 00:04:02.189 the past five years, I find that, you know, they're just isn't 50 00:04:02.389 --> 00:04:14.699 a safe way for them to communicate how they feel without risking too much personal 51 00:04:14.819 --> 00:04:17.819 information. So they really don't know where the lines are and where the boundaries 52 00:04:17.860 --> 00:04:24.610 are, and so straddling that can sometimes trigger them into the part of the 53 00:04:24.730 --> 00:04:28.529 brain known as the Amygdala. So it's not a conscious thing. It's not 54 00:04:28.649 --> 00:04:33.129 like people are walking around going we're in a culture of fear or you know, 55 00:04:33.250 --> 00:04:38.050 there's a lot of fear at our company where people are mean. So 56 00:04:38.209 --> 00:04:44.240 there's fear. It's an unconscious response out of the executive function, which is, 57 00:04:44.279 --> 00:04:46.959 you say, will unpack and into this back part of the brain called 58 00:04:47.000 --> 00:04:50.759 the and make dealt the fight or flight response is most people commonly know it. 59 00:04:51.480 --> 00:04:55.269 Yeah, absolutely. I love that you alluded to that, because we're 60 00:04:55.310 --> 00:04:58.629 going to be talking about how can you identify when your team is operating out 61 00:04:58.629 --> 00:05:01.709 of fear, because it can come in really four distinct ways. Before we 62 00:05:01.750 --> 00:05:04.269 do that, though, as we were talking about, Karen, let's unpack 63 00:05:04.350 --> 00:05:08.220 this idea of, you know, moving from the back of the brain to 64 00:05:08.259 --> 00:05:12.660 the front of the brain, helping your team operate out of their executive function. 65 00:05:12.899 --> 00:05:15.100 Tell us a little bit about this term and unpack it for folks to 66 00:05:15.620 --> 00:05:19.500 which you know this might be someone of a new term. Sure so. 67 00:05:19.819 --> 00:05:25.769 Some some people are familiar with this term because they have children who've gotten stuck 68 00:05:25.810 --> 00:05:32.810 at school where they there get a diagnosis or a label of adhd add or 69 00:05:32.850 --> 00:05:39.360 Dyslexia, meaning they are not able to stay in the front part of the 70 00:05:39.519 --> 00:05:46.079 brain, the prefrontal Cortex, they are not using or optimizing their executive function. 71 00:05:46.600 --> 00:05:48.600 Other people have just heard it thrown around, but what it really means, 72 00:05:49.269 --> 00:05:53.230 in the way I look at it, as we have three brains and 73 00:05:53.509 --> 00:05:58.069 we've grown these brains over time and our evolution. This is a very simplistic 74 00:05:58.149 --> 00:06:02.629 way to explain it, because I'm neither a neuroscientist nor an evolutionary expert. 75 00:06:03.110 --> 00:06:08.939 But the first part of the brain, people call the Lizard Brain or the 76 00:06:09.060 --> 00:06:14.300 monkey brain, is really there for one purpose. It's not there for pleasure, 77 00:06:14.819 --> 00:06:18.490 it's not there for learning, it's not there for going to shows, 78 00:06:19.089 --> 00:06:25.850 it's not there for multitasking. It's there to tell us that we're safe or 79 00:06:25.930 --> 00:06:29.889 we're not safe. We either need to send cortis all to our gut so 80 00:06:30.009 --> 00:06:32.759 we can run as fast as we can or, you know, we're okay 81 00:06:32.879 --> 00:06:38.319 and we're safe and we can be present. So that part of our brain 82 00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:43.079 is a place we lived for much of our evolution. In fact, I 83 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:47.829 say this sadly. You know, until about forty years ago, and still 84 00:06:47.870 --> 00:06:51.790 true in many parts of the world, women weren't safe without a man, 85 00:06:53.670 --> 00:06:59.149 you know, just walking down the street or in life, choosing maybe not 86 00:06:59.430 --> 00:07:03.259 to be coupled up. They were labeled, made fun of or threatened physically. 87 00:07:04.060 --> 00:07:08.939 So we've spent a lot of time in our evolution just living in that 88 00:07:09.100 --> 00:07:15.660 part of the brain. It's not unlikely to think that we're easily triggered, 89 00:07:15.699 --> 00:07:18.850 especially with the lack of space, which I'll talk about in a minute, 90 00:07:19.370 --> 00:07:26.410 in our lives. So the second part of the brain is the emotional brain, 91 00:07:26.449 --> 00:07:30.639 or the limbic brain. This is sort of the part that grew over 92 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:35.720 and is present in cats, dogs, horses, you know, animals that 93 00:07:35.759 --> 00:07:41.160 are commonly our pets, because they have an emotional component. And neither of 94 00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:45.029 these places are where you want to sit at work right. You don't want 95 00:07:45.029 --> 00:07:48.350 to be crying in a meeting and you don't want to be running from the 96 00:07:48.750 --> 00:07:54.110 conference room because someone asks you a question you can answer. You want to 97 00:07:54.230 --> 00:07:59.779 be calm and sitting in the front part of your brain called the prefrontal Cortex, 98 00:07:59.939 --> 00:08:03.860 and that is where the executive function sits. The executive function allows US 99 00:08:03.899 --> 00:08:09.339 humans, which is how we have evolved as fantastically as we have. I've 100 00:08:09.339 --> 00:08:13.649 been looking out my window here in New York City the buildings and the planes 101 00:08:13.810 --> 00:08:18.290 and the technology, and it's mind blowing. You know, we've been able 102 00:08:18.329 --> 00:08:22.050 to do that. Cats and dogs can't. Why we have this other part 103 00:08:22.089 --> 00:08:26.449 of the brain, and so this part of the brain allows us to make 104 00:08:26.529 --> 00:08:31.480 decisions and allows US discernment. It is where we're creative and we collaborate. 105 00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:37.320 It's how we can plan well, and so it's why it's a trigger for 106 00:08:37.799 --> 00:08:43.870 developmental experts when children aren't able to use these these attributes very well. So 107 00:08:45.110 --> 00:08:52.029 in our society, where we have lost the ability to create space, space 108 00:08:52.149 --> 00:08:56.820 between who we are as people and who we are at work, where meetings 109 00:08:56.860 --> 00:09:01.899 are stacked one after the other, after the other after the other, I 110 00:09:01.179 --> 00:09:07.740 like to say where we have no space, we have a terrible pace and 111 00:09:07.899 --> 00:09:16.929 that equals no grace. So they love that. Yeah, it's really unbelievable 112 00:09:16.970 --> 00:09:18.730 when I think back to like going to work in one thousand nine hundred and 113 00:09:18.730 --> 00:09:26.360 ninety and I had these really big closets with lots of clothes and I had 114 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:30.080 a wall of clothes that were maybe for going to the club and I had 115 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:35.480 some clothes that were for going to really nice functions and weddings and black tie 116 00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:39.070 events, and I had a wall of clothes that I went to work in 117 00:09:39.230 --> 00:09:43.909 and there were suits and matching shoes and and you know, it was sort 118 00:09:43.950 --> 00:09:48.870 of a uniform and when you put on your work clothes and you left your 119 00:09:48.990 --> 00:09:52.620 house, you were in work mode yet, but when you swung the door 120 00:09:52.659 --> 00:09:56.899 open to your building, you shift it into a different part of the brain. 121 00:09:58.019 --> 00:10:01.659 It was really profouund to have that space. We nobody called you on 122 00:10:01.779 --> 00:10:05.580 your home phone at nine o'clock at night or ten o'clock at night, and 123 00:10:07.409 --> 00:10:11.289 before computers, we had in and out boxes. So work would come in 124 00:10:11.330 --> 00:10:16.250 once a day, maybe twice. It would go out once a day. 125 00:10:16.250 --> 00:10:22.200 Now it's just coming in and going out constantly. So we have no space. 126 00:10:22.840 --> 00:10:26.039 We have a bad pace, phrenetic pace, and are losing our grace. 127 00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:30.759 Yeah, absolutely. That's such a great breakdown and again, you know, 128 00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:33.279 just like you, I'm no neuroscientist, but I think that was a 129 00:10:33.320 --> 00:10:39.629 really sequential breakdown of the parts of our brain. Let's jump into, especially 130 00:10:39.710 --> 00:10:43.269 for leaders, these tactics of helping people get to that operating out of the 131 00:10:43.389 --> 00:10:48.750 executive function, as you mentioned earlier, it starts by being able to identify 132 00:10:48.990 --> 00:10:52.580 when they're operating out of fear, which comes in in four different kind of 133 00:10:52.940 --> 00:10:58.259 unique situations that you can identify. Talk US through those four, how to 134 00:10:58.340 --> 00:11:01.419 identify them, and then we'll come back Karen in what do you do in 135 00:11:01.500 --> 00:11:03.529 each of those four situations? Hey, cool. I call them the fear 136 00:11:03.610 --> 00:11:09.769 responses, the for fear responses, because I started to see them in the 137 00:11:09.889 --> 00:11:15.370 coaching I was doing and I would have somebody tell me, you know, 138 00:11:15.409 --> 00:11:20.720 the zoom screen would open and there'd be a young woman hysterical telling me about 139 00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:26.000 this awful boss that she had and how mean she was, and and then 140 00:11:26.039 --> 00:11:28.240 I would, you know, see the zoom screen open the next day and 141 00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:33.110 it was the boss and she seemed pretty nice to me, you know. 142 00:11:33.269 --> 00:11:37.269 So that's the other thing. You know, my fear responses are going to 143 00:11:37.350 --> 00:11:41.549 be different than someone else's and the way I respond to other people when they're 144 00:11:41.590 --> 00:11:46.220 in fear is going to be different than the way you might so you know, 145 00:11:46.340 --> 00:11:50.340 I have a little story to illustrate this, which is that I was 146 00:11:50.379 --> 00:11:56.139 at a big event, to beautiful gala here in New York and it was 147 00:11:56.259 --> 00:12:00.940 weeks and months of prep and it was it was a very fancy party and 148 00:12:01.139 --> 00:12:05.529 lots of celebrities and kind of thing you really look forward to. And when 149 00:12:05.570 --> 00:12:09.090 we got to the event, I was separated from the person I went with 150 00:12:09.970 --> 00:12:16.159 because of these table cards the names weren't right and so my name apparently wasn't 151 00:12:16.240 --> 00:12:20.679 on a card and the person who was responsible for doing the cards was sitting 152 00:12:20.759 --> 00:12:24.679 two people away from me. And as I started chatting up the young lady 153 00:12:24.759 --> 00:12:28.120 next to me and we were doing the you know, I love your dress, 154 00:12:28.120 --> 00:12:31.950 I love your dress routine, I noticed this woman glaring at me and 155 00:12:33.110 --> 00:12:37.110 with fear in her eyes and and, you know, dare I say hatred? 156 00:12:37.110 --> 00:12:41.149 I had never seen her in my life and she said to me, 157 00:12:41.309 --> 00:12:46.700 who are you and I said well, I'm Karen and as any frightened person 158 00:12:46.820 --> 00:12:50.740 would do. I said Hi, I'm Karen, and that's a little intimidating 159 00:12:50.379 --> 00:12:56.379 even for a powerful lady like myself. And so she glared at me and 160 00:12:56.700 --> 00:13:01.330 started shaking her head and said I there's no care in here, there's no 161 00:13:01.490 --> 00:13:03.929 careen here. You don't belong here, and she stood up and yelled. 162 00:13:05.129 --> 00:13:09.970 She was hysterical. Karen doesn't belong here, Karen. And when I tell 163 00:13:09.090 --> 00:13:13.480 this story to a group of male executives, you know, people cover their 164 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:20.720 face because we're all running around with programs that we were dealt before we were 165 00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:24.080 eight years old, and then in this horrible invention called middle school, we 166 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:28.230 got us a lot of social programs. And so I don't care who you 167 00:13:28.389 --> 00:13:33.070 are, ninety five percent of you have a program called you don't belong here 168 00:13:33.870 --> 00:13:39.110 that you would react very strongly to. It came from the lunch room seating 169 00:13:39.950 --> 00:13:45.179 in middle school. So so yeah, little lugans going up. I remember 170 00:13:45.299 --> 00:13:50.500 that one. So it was pretty horrifying. I ended up leaning over touching 171 00:13:50.539 --> 00:13:54.860 her very gently on the arm. I could see that she was in fighter 172 00:13:54.940 --> 00:13:58.529 flight fear and she was in the fight response. And so we I said, 173 00:13:58.570 --> 00:14:03.370 why don't we walk over to the table and get your get clear on 174 00:14:03.409 --> 00:14:07.370 the fact that I do sit here and this is my table, and now 175 00:14:07.490 --> 00:14:09.960 my date is run around the table and is saying, you know, you 176 00:14:11.080 --> 00:14:13.679 don't need to do this, what's wrong with her? And I said nothing's 177 00:14:13.720 --> 00:14:16.559 wrong, we're all going to go together and we took twenty steps over to 178 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:20.639 the table and the lady that checked me and said yes, Miss Bellent Tony, 179 00:14:20.759 --> 00:14:26.389 you you're at table three, and she kept shaking her head and she's 180 00:14:26.389 --> 00:14:30.909 very upset and someone had told me later, who was a close friend of 181 00:14:30.990 --> 00:14:35.750 hers, that she'd actually been abducted in the country that she's from and held 182 00:14:35.789 --> 00:14:41.379 against her will for months and she had ignored her intuition at the time of 183 00:14:41.419 --> 00:14:48.940 the abduction and since then she brings place cards to fancy parties and puts name 184 00:14:48.059 --> 00:14:54.809 cards around to control her and vironment and because she actually had made a mistake, 185 00:14:54.769 --> 00:15:00.809 put someone else's name twice and not my name. But what I think 186 00:15:00.850 --> 00:15:05.090 happens every day is that people are reaction. That is a very dramatic story 187 00:15:05.809 --> 00:15:11.240 and we just don't ever know what someone's been through. And since I do 188 00:15:11.639 --> 00:15:16.159 this sort of holistic executive coaching where I get to know who people really are 189 00:15:16.279 --> 00:15:18.960 and what their patterns and programs are. I can tell you most people in 190 00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:26.950 your company have dramatic stories too, from their childhoods that can be very easily 191 00:15:26.110 --> 00:15:31.470 triggered because they've had no space. They woke up with their testosterone high, 192 00:15:31.990 --> 00:15:37.340 they've looked at their phone and they've engaged and they're never turning off, they're 193 00:15:37.379 --> 00:15:41.980 never resting the brain, and so they're using up the energy they get in 194 00:15:43.100 --> 00:15:48.820 the front of their brain and they're triggering the fear response from exhaustion, from 195 00:15:48.860 --> 00:15:56.250 stress, from frustration, and it opens up old wounds that are really inappropriate 196 00:15:56.730 --> 00:16:00.409 to share at work, and so nobody understands why people behave the way they 197 00:16:00.450 --> 00:16:06.799 do. Hey, everybody, Logan with sweetish here. If you've been listening 198 00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:10.159 to the show for a while, you know we're big proponents of putting out 199 00:16:10.159 --> 00:16:14.960 original, organic content on linked but one thing that's always been a struggle for 200 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:18.110 a team like ours is to easily track the reach of that linkedin content. 201 00:16:18.429 --> 00:16:22.710 That's why I was really be excited when I heard about shield the other day 202 00:16:22.789 --> 00:16:26.750 from a connection on you guessed it, linked in. Since our team started 203 00:16:26.789 --> 00:16:30.669 using shield, I've loved how it's let us easily track and analyze the performance 204 00:16:30.789 --> 00:16:37.220 of our linkedin content without having to manually log it ourselves. It automatically creates 205 00:16:37.299 --> 00:16:41.340 reports and generates some dashboards that are incredibly useful to see things like what content 206 00:16:41.379 --> 00:16:45.379 has been performing the best and what days of the week are we getting the 207 00:16:45.419 --> 00:16:49.649 most engagement and our average views proposed. I'd highly suggest you guys check out 208 00:16:49.649 --> 00:16:52.730 this tool if you're putting out content on Linkedin, and if you're not, 209 00:16:53.090 --> 00:16:56.090 you should be. It's been a game changer for us. If you go 210 00:16:56.289 --> 00:17:00.440 to shield APP DOT AI and check out the ten day free trial, you 211 00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:04.480 can even use our promo code be to be growth to get a twenty five 212 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:10.880 percent discount. Again, that's shield APP DOT AI and that Promo Code is 213 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:15.240 be the number to be growth. All one word. All right, let's 214 00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:21.829 get back to the show. Yeah, so that sort of you know, 215 00:17:21.910 --> 00:17:26.109 you might not see yelling and standing up and screaming to the room, but 216 00:17:26.470 --> 00:17:30.500 that sort of combat of nature, you know as indicative of number one, 217 00:17:30.619 --> 00:17:33.259 that that fight response. You know, I kind of thought we might we 218 00:17:33.299 --> 00:17:34.619 might summarize them all and then come back to what to do, but I 219 00:17:34.700 --> 00:17:37.980 think it might make sense care and just you know it tell us a little 220 00:17:37.980 --> 00:17:42.299 bit about what you did in that situation, what leaders can do either learning 221 00:17:42.299 --> 00:17:47.410 from that situation or common way to deal with that, that fight response, 222 00:17:47.490 --> 00:17:49.650 since we're since we're right here on this one, and that story so fresh 223 00:17:49.769 --> 00:17:53.329 right. Yeah, it's fresh, and you know, I I could pat 224 00:17:53.450 --> 00:17:56.369 myself on the back and say how well I handled that, but the truth 225 00:17:56.410 --> 00:18:00.359 is it was a friend of mine's event and he was up on stage and 226 00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:03.920 the last thing I wanted was for him to look in the audience to see 227 00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:08.599 a girl fight or a commotion and and maybe started it. So I was, 228 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:12.990 I was really in a very grounded state. I did not allow my 229 00:18:14.269 --> 00:18:18.789 fear response, which in that situation might have been fight. Right, there 230 00:18:18.829 --> 00:18:22.109 could have been a horrible fight at the table wrote a ruined everyone's evening. 231 00:18:22.150 --> 00:18:27.380 I could have run away and avoided and sat with other people or found a 232 00:18:27.460 --> 00:18:33.619 security guard to get her in trouble. Frequently that's what flight people do. 233 00:18:33.380 --> 00:18:37.099 I could have frozen and fear, I could have become a fawner, but 234 00:18:37.180 --> 00:18:45.329 I stayed calm because I realized this woman is in a situation called the fear 235 00:18:45.410 --> 00:18:49.609 response and it obviously is nothing to do with me. So I was able 236 00:18:49.769 --> 00:18:56.000 to diffuse the situation first and then communicate with her. You must diffuse the 237 00:18:56.079 --> 00:19:02.839 heat with fight people. You cannot attempt to be reasonable with someone who's in 238 00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:06.440 an emotional state. Yeah, I love that. I've seen that as a 239 00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:08.240 parent. Just kind of that. Wait, hold on a second. Do 240 00:19:08.359 --> 00:19:12.390 I really think you know that that eight or ten year old who's just so 241 00:19:12.670 --> 00:19:17.470 upset it's just going to listen to my reason because I'm I'm the dead. 242 00:19:17.789 --> 00:19:21.269 No, you've got to use before you can communicate. I love that. 243 00:19:21.349 --> 00:19:25.220 I think that holds true as much for parents as it does for leaders and 244 00:19:25.259 --> 00:19:27.099 the work I scaren, and I hope your wife's listening because she can use 245 00:19:27.140 --> 00:19:30.579 this tactic with you as well. But I mean it works in marriages, 246 00:19:30.700 --> 00:19:37.539 it works kid absolutely. It's a relationship skills. Isn't just about your marketing 247 00:19:37.619 --> 00:19:42.650 director or your creative director having a fit. And very often fight people are 248 00:19:44.170 --> 00:19:48.569 not seen as fear, in fear. No one would assume someone beats their 249 00:19:48.609 --> 00:19:52.769 chest and yells and screens is in fear, but they are. They're scared, 250 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:55.920 they're afraids, a real billier, Karen. Yes, they're afraid of 251 00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:59.680 failure, they're afraid of looking bad. You know, there's a creative director 252 00:19:59.799 --> 00:20:03.799 that I coach who would lose it if the team didn't show up and people 253 00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:08.910 just got so afraid of him they'd start failing because they were also afraid of 254 00:20:08.990 --> 00:20:12.670 getting yelled at. Maybe they had a dad who did that and he would 255 00:20:12.670 --> 00:20:15.710 just say to me, I just am so a fair afraid of losing this 256 00:20:15.789 --> 00:20:19.589 account and they're not as committed as I am. And I said, you 257 00:20:19.670 --> 00:20:22.740 know, there's just a breakdown in the way you say it. If, 258 00:20:22.859 --> 00:20:27.019 instead of you yelling, you stopped and said, you guys, I don't 259 00:20:27.059 --> 00:20:30.220 know what to do, I'm really scared and I need your help. Yeah, 260 00:20:30.380 --> 00:20:34.579 you know, that moment of openness could change everything. Yeah, I 261 00:20:34.700 --> 00:20:40.329 love the way your story just unpacks that. Let's talk about that the next 262 00:20:40.410 --> 00:20:42.890 three. So we've got fight and then we've touched a little bit on flight, 263 00:20:44.130 --> 00:20:48.410 freeze and Fawn. Give us some some strategies to identify these next three 264 00:20:48.450 --> 00:20:52.519 as we go through them, Karen, and what folks can do when you 265 00:20:52.680 --> 00:20:56.960 identify them. Yeah, the flight people are seen as highly productive. So 266 00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:03.039 that's because when they're scared, they believe that the path to safety is by 267 00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:06.910 getting a lot of thing done, and so they will run back to their 268 00:21:06.990 --> 00:21:11.349 desk, put their head down and check stuff off a list, almost like 269 00:21:11.509 --> 00:21:17.150 camouflage. They don't want to be seen. They will not respond in a 270 00:21:17.230 --> 00:21:22.339 meeting, sometimes because they don't have the answer. So what I've had to 271 00:21:22.420 --> 00:21:27.099 teach flight people is you need to put a communication piece in between running away 272 00:21:29.220 --> 00:21:33.170 and standing there. They're just says, kind of a thinker. You know 273 00:21:33.210 --> 00:21:37.490 I'm a thoughtful person. I want to get back to you, but being 274 00:21:37.569 --> 00:21:42.130 put on the spot is challenging for me right. So these I just had 275 00:21:42.170 --> 00:21:47.480 a coaching session this morning with a gal and I advised her about a flight 276 00:21:47.640 --> 00:21:52.039 person, to give him the questions for the meeting before the meeting. Let 277 00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:56.400 him prepare, let him think through, because you're going to get the most 278 00:21:56.440 --> 00:22:00.079 out of him that way. He's not an on the spot guy and he's 279 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:04.190 too afraid of saying or doing the wrong thing. So he'll clam right up 280 00:22:04.750 --> 00:22:11.069 and typically leaf depart, even if he's physically still present. You'll look here 281 00:22:11.589 --> 00:22:15.819 checked out. Yeah, so if you've got someone that you identify, you 282 00:22:15.900 --> 00:22:19.500 know that that flight response. It could be them physically leaving. It could 283 00:22:19.500 --> 00:22:23.579 also just be them mentally or emotionally checking out of the situation. You want 284 00:22:23.579 --> 00:22:29.259 to give them as much advanced notice and preparation so that they don't feel put 285 00:22:29.339 --> 00:22:32.490 on the spot. I think that's that's great. I seen any lady that's 286 00:22:32.609 --> 00:22:37.769 confronted or man about an issue that he's likely guilty of, than he will, 287 00:22:37.809 --> 00:22:42.289 if he's guilty, actually, then he will grab his phone and start 288 00:22:42.329 --> 00:22:47.359 trying to check messages. I've seen it on the subway. I've seen teenagers 289 00:22:47.480 --> 00:22:51.960 come on the subway and and be sort of menacing and I've sort of seeing 290 00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:56.039 these guys in suits who know they should kind of speak up or lend some 291 00:22:56.240 --> 00:23:02.710 substance to the situation. They're in fear and they are pretending, YEP, 292 00:23:02.990 --> 00:23:07.910 they're in the wild, to the to the phone as something to distract them. 293 00:23:07.950 --> 00:23:11.710 Yeah, I think that that's really interesting to think about. I think 294 00:23:11.750 --> 00:23:15.859 there are some subtleties here where you can recognize, recognize the difference, give 295 00:23:15.980 --> 00:23:19.819 them opportunity, and ample opportunity, to be able to respond. Number number 296 00:23:19.940 --> 00:23:23.779 three is freeze. How can I assume that this can look a little bit 297 00:23:23.900 --> 00:23:29.130 similar to flight, because flight doesn't always mean physically leaving, and so therefore 298 00:23:29.410 --> 00:23:32.849 tell us a little bit about recognizing the difference between a flight and a frieze 299 00:23:32.890 --> 00:23:36.329 response and what to do about it. You know, it's interesting people who 300 00:23:36.369 --> 00:23:41.000 go into fight sometimes their secondary mode. And what I do in training that 301 00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:45.480 I conduct at companies is I give everyone a test so they can see what 302 00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:51.079 their primary and secondary is. They can see what they're co workers primary is, 303 00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:55.160 they can see how their boss is and we can start creating common language 304 00:23:55.750 --> 00:23:57.190 so that they're you know, because none of these are right or wrong, 305 00:23:57.390 --> 00:24:06.910 they just are and it's it should be a lot easier to handle someone when 306 00:24:06.910 --> 00:24:11.460 you know where they're coming from rather than guessing and freeze people are the hardest 307 00:24:11.500 --> 00:24:17.460 people to coach. They are almost if you think about a chess game, 308 00:24:18.099 --> 00:24:22.259 they're they're paralyzed like the deer in the headlight right and so you know what 309 00:24:22.380 --> 00:24:26.289 happens to the deer every time they get paralyzed, and so they just can't 310 00:24:26.490 --> 00:24:33.250 move because any move to them is seen as risky, and so they will 311 00:24:33.369 --> 00:24:40.200 complain a lot of times they go silent. They are frequently people that get 312 00:24:40.279 --> 00:24:48.319 lost in video games that work. Add is a strategy for them. multitasking 313 00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:55.549 is a strategy for them. To I should say, yes, multitasking is 314 00:24:55.670 --> 00:25:03.029 a strategy for them to be able to move out of the frieze a little 315 00:25:03.029 --> 00:25:07.500 bit because they're there. That paralyzed and I had a client once who, 316 00:25:07.619 --> 00:25:11.380 just you know, was being abused by her boyfriend and when I made the 317 00:25:11.500 --> 00:25:14.900 suggestion that what would it be like if she asked him to move, she 318 00:25:15.019 --> 00:25:18.579 went down a whole path of decisions she couldn't be sure of. You know, 319 00:25:18.619 --> 00:25:19.940 I need to get a raise so I could stay in my apartment and 320 00:25:21.019 --> 00:25:22.730 I if I couldn't stay in my apartment, I'd only be able to stay 321 00:25:22.730 --> 00:25:26.289 there a year and if I had to move in a year, I don't 322 00:25:26.329 --> 00:25:29.809 have any friends who can help me move. And so she couldn't let go 323 00:25:29.970 --> 00:25:34.009 of an abusive boyfriend because she couldn't see how she'd move out of her apartment 324 00:25:34.089 --> 00:25:40.319 which was six steps away. And so freeze people are typically in jobs they 325 00:25:40.359 --> 00:25:45.599 don't like. They're often bullied, sadly, they're often made fun of or 326 00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:48.880 talked about behind their back. They're the last people at the office every day 327 00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:52.470 because it's a little safer and easier to get things done when no one's around. 328 00:25:53.029 --> 00:25:56.869 They just literally don't feel safe around people. HMM, yeah, that 329 00:25:56.950 --> 00:26:00.390 makes a lot of sense and I think you've given us some very good clues 330 00:26:00.470 --> 00:26:03.029 to kind of pick up on. What are some things you can do to 331 00:26:03.150 --> 00:26:07.619 enable these folks that have that have that freeze response or tend to, I 332 00:26:07.660 --> 00:26:11.420 don't want to label and put people into buckets, but tend to operate out 333 00:26:11.420 --> 00:26:15.420 of that freeze response? First, most often, give them a small, 334 00:26:15.940 --> 00:26:21.529 small, small baby step, and I mean if someone's in my office and 335 00:26:21.569 --> 00:26:26.650 they get into a frozen state, if they are about to maybe hear some 336 00:26:26.769 --> 00:26:32.650 negative information and go into a frozen state, don't keep piling on. Stop 337 00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:36.640 and get them to try to move their body right. So one of the 338 00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:41.319 things you could say, you can't go. You know, hey, Logan, 339 00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:45.319 let's go step outside and get some fresh air. It's too far. 340 00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:48.589 Yeah, you know, I could say, Hey, let's stand up, 341 00:26:48.470 --> 00:26:52.390 kind of shake her arms for a minute and stand up and loosen up, 342 00:26:52.390 --> 00:26:56.109 get out of the chair, and then I might say why don't we step 343 00:26:56.150 --> 00:27:02.420 over to the sliding door and keep chatting and I'm chatting. Of course they're 344 00:27:02.460 --> 00:27:08.140 frozen. And then I might say let's step out into the common area and 345 00:27:08.299 --> 00:27:12.339 sit on the sofa out there, or let's step out into the common area 346 00:27:12.339 --> 00:27:15.609 and see if we can get a drink of water and then I might be 347 00:27:15.890 --> 00:27:21.930 steps and changing the physical environment can can kind of provide a little bit of 348 00:27:21.970 --> 00:27:26.650 an unlocked because they don't see a way forward and so they're in this this 349 00:27:26.170 --> 00:27:30.960 mental paradigm and sometimes the physical can impact the the mental. I really like 350 00:27:32.200 --> 00:27:36.240 that tip. And as we steps, get them, it's like diffusing the 351 00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:38.880 fight person. M Yeah, it's now. Then, when they're out of 352 00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:44.430 that state, you can have a conversation right again. It's kind of a 353 00:27:44.589 --> 00:27:48.309 one two step. You've got to address the emotion before you can you can 354 00:27:48.430 --> 00:27:52.630 have a continue with the logical conversation and then the next steps. All right. 355 00:27:52.710 --> 00:27:53.869 Well, as we wrap it up today, care and tell us about 356 00:27:53.869 --> 00:27:57.430 the fourth one, identifying the fallen response. What to do about it, 357 00:27:57.509 --> 00:28:00.940 as we wrap up this great conversation today. Well, this is this is 358 00:28:00.980 --> 00:28:07.180 a person you might see more than any other at the office and it's the 359 00:28:07.299 --> 00:28:11.180 one people here the least about. So fawners, if you think about, 360 00:28:11.259 --> 00:28:15.970 you know, fawning all over somebody, believe that in order to be safe 361 00:28:15.009 --> 00:28:19.009 in any relationship, they must meet the needs of everyone else but themselves. 362 00:28:19.569 --> 00:28:26.009 So they're pleasers, their codependents, their yes people, and so if a 363 00:28:26.130 --> 00:28:33.640 faunner works for you and is in a position of especially like a coordinator or 364 00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:40.079 like a traffic person or a you know, a team member who is responsible 365 00:28:40.359 --> 00:28:45.470 for a lot of admin for different executives or just somebody who has to answer 366 00:28:45.509 --> 00:28:49.910 to a lot of people, and you see them always saying yes, you 367 00:28:51.029 --> 00:28:55.630 need to stop them, because what happens is they keep saying yes, they 368 00:28:55.740 --> 00:29:00.619 flip into the Amygdala and then they don't get anything done because they get overwhelmed 369 00:29:00.660 --> 00:29:06.259 and overburdened and in there's a podcast I did call the price of your perfectionism 370 00:29:07.660 --> 00:29:11.970 on my crazy busy show that has a free download that shows you the cycle 371 00:29:12.289 --> 00:29:17.210 of this type of person and what they go through. And they put themselves 372 00:29:17.250 --> 00:29:22.089 almost into a terrified state where they have this forced flow state to get out 373 00:29:22.130 --> 00:29:25.839 of the situation. But they lose a lot of time and a lot of 374 00:29:25.960 --> 00:29:32.279 productivity worrying in and stressing that they can't get things done and they procrastinate. 375 00:29:32.920 --> 00:29:36.839 So they need to be highly organized. When you give them something and they 376 00:29:36.839 --> 00:29:41.349 say yes, automatically say you know, look at your schedule, make sure 377 00:29:41.509 --> 00:29:45.549 you can say yes. Make sure you don't need to give me a project 378 00:29:45.750 --> 00:29:49.710 back in order to say yes to this, because I know you're busy. 379 00:29:51.390 --> 00:29:53.059 So how can you say yes to this one? I've asked for it by 380 00:29:53.180 --> 00:29:57.500 Friday? Yeah, and are several things there. You're validating their value, 381 00:29:57.539 --> 00:30:02.940 which is addressing some of this. You're giving them the expectation. You know, 382 00:30:02.980 --> 00:30:06.619 I heard a great episode on the Craig Grow Shell podcast recently about you 383 00:30:06.740 --> 00:30:10.490 know, our team members, especially if they're our direct reports, will take 384 00:30:10.529 --> 00:30:14.609 everything as urgent unless we give them the opportunity to say hey, if you 385 00:30:14.650 --> 00:30:17.730 need to say no to this right now, that's okay. I'm not saying 386 00:30:17.730 --> 00:30:19.250 you have to do this, I'm asking you. Can you do yes? 387 00:30:19.609 --> 00:30:22.000 So I want to yes or a no. I don't just want to yes. 388 00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:26.720 And here's kind of my expected, you know, timeframe on this. 389 00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:29.759 This is not a this week project, this is a three month project or 390 00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:32.640 this is, you know, a two week project. One can you do 391 00:30:32.920 --> 00:30:37.789 this and to is that timeline acceptable and making it abundantly clear, especially if 392 00:30:37.829 --> 00:30:41.670 you're in a remote team and you're communicating this over email or slack. There's 393 00:30:41.990 --> 00:30:47.430 different conversation about when should you communicate that facetoface or over a video conference versus 394 00:30:47.509 --> 00:30:49.059 not? But those are some of the things. I'm here and you say 395 00:30:49.059 --> 00:30:53.059 they're Karen. Yes, agreed, and remote teams are a whole other topic 396 00:30:53.099 --> 00:30:56.859 around. Yes, absolutely awesome. Well, Karen, this has been a 397 00:30:56.940 --> 00:31:00.819 great conversation. I think you've given us some great tips to identify these four 398 00:31:00.940 --> 00:31:06.410 different types of fear responses and what to do about them, whether we're leading 399 00:31:06.410 --> 00:31:11.049 a marketing team or any other sort of team or organization. Karen, if 400 00:31:11.089 --> 00:31:15.529 anybody listening to this has enjoyed this conversation as much as I have, what's 401 00:31:15.569 --> 00:31:18.079 the best way for them to reach out to you? Stay connected, find 402 00:31:18.119 --> 00:31:22.359 your podcast take any next step that they'd like to from here? Great. 403 00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:29.279 My podcast is available on Itunes, spotify and just about anywhere you could find 404 00:31:29.319 --> 00:31:33.630 a podcast, including good pods, which is a brand new platform that I 405 00:31:33.670 --> 00:31:37.470 want to give a shout out to. Also, you can find me on 406 00:31:37.589 --> 00:31:41.349 Linkedin. You at Karen Bell and Tony. We can put my info in 407 00:31:41.390 --> 00:31:47.619 the show notes. My website is Karen Bill and tonycom and my email is 408 00:31:47.700 --> 00:31:51.940 Karen at Karen Bell and tonycom. So love it easy enough. Well, 409 00:31:51.940 --> 00:31:53.859 Karen, I appreciate it. I've listened to a few episodes of your show 410 00:31:53.900 --> 00:31:59.740 I like this is synced Solo episode formats where you're sharing some things you know 411 00:31:59.859 --> 00:32:02.690 fresh from your coaching sessions and things like that. So definitely encourage people to 412 00:32:02.730 --> 00:32:06.609 check that out here and this has been a great conversation. Than so much 413 00:32:06.849 --> 00:32:09.250 for joining me on the show today. Have a great day you too. 414 00:32:12.690 --> 00:32:16.079 I hate it when podcasts incessantly ask their listeners for reviews, but I get 415 00:32:16.079 --> 00:32:20.759 why they do it, because reviews are enormously helpful when you're trying to grow 416 00:32:20.759 --> 00:32:23.200 a podcast audience. So here's what we decided to do. If you leave 417 00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:28.039 a review for me to be growth and apple podcasts and email me a screenshot 418 00:32:28.119 --> 00:32:31.029 of the review to James at Sweet Fish Mediacom, I'll send you a signed 419 00:32:31.109 --> 00:32:35.789 copy of my new book, content based networking, how to instantly connect with 420 00:32:35.910 --> 00:32:37.950 anyone you want to know. We get a review, you get a free 421 00:32:37.990 --> 00:32:39.230 book. We both win.