1212: How to Manage Content Operations Chaos w/ Toby Murdock & Zoe Randolph

WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.519 --> 00:00:08.349 There's a ton of noise out there. So how do you get decision makers 2 00:00:08.429 --> 00:00:13.470 to pay attention to your brand? Start a podcast and invite your ideal clients 3 00:00:13.789 --> 00:00:23.579 to be guests on your show. Learn more at sweetphish MEDIACOM. You're listening 4 00:00:23.660 --> 00:00:28.420 to be tob growth, a daily podcast for B TOB leaders. We've interviewed 5 00:00:28.460 --> 00:00:32.060 names you've probably heard before, like Gary vanner truck and Simon Senek, but 6 00:00:32.219 --> 00:00:36.490 you've probably never heard from the majority of our guests. That's because the bulk 7 00:00:36.530 --> 00:00:41.049 of our interviews aren't with professional speakers and authors. Most of our guests are 8 00:00:41.170 --> 00:00:45.929 in the trenches leading sales and marketing teams. They're implementing strategy, they're experimenting 9 00:00:46.009 --> 00:00:50.640 with tactics, they're building the fastest growing BB companies in the world. My 10 00:00:50.679 --> 00:00:54.079 name is James Carberry. I'm the founder of sweet fish media, a podcast 11 00:00:54.159 --> 00:00:57.679 agency for BB brands, and I'm also one of the cohosts of this show. 12 00:00:58.320 --> 00:01:02.039 When we're not interviewing sales and marketing leaders, you'll hear stories from behind 13 00:01:02.079 --> 00:01:04.390 the scenes of our own business. Will share the ups and downs of our 14 00:01:04.430 --> 00:01:10.510 journey as we attempt to take over the world. Just getting well, maybe 15 00:01:11.150 --> 00:01:19.620 let's get into the show. Welcome back to BEDB growth. I'm Logan Lyles 16 00:01:19.700 --> 00:01:23.379 with sweetfish media. I'm joined by two guests today. I've got with me 17 00:01:23.540 --> 00:01:26.900 Toby Murdoch, he is the cofounder and CEO of compost and now a general 18 00:01:26.980 --> 00:01:33.409 manager at Upland software, and also Zoe Randolf, content architect at compost. 19 00:01:33.730 --> 00:01:38.689 They are coauthors of the new book mastering one voice, a marketing fable and 20 00:01:38.930 --> 00:01:42.569 field guide to content operations. Toby, Zoe, welcome to the show. 21 00:01:42.370 --> 00:01:46.689 Thank he logan, thanks for having us for excited to be here. Yeah, 22 00:01:46.769 --> 00:01:49.840 absolutely. So we're going to be talking about some of the key lessons 23 00:01:49.079 --> 00:01:53.599 that you guys are sharing in your new book mastering one voice today. Before 24 00:01:53.599 --> 00:01:56.519 we jump straight into that, though, I would love for you guys to 25 00:01:56.599 --> 00:01:59.640 give listeners a little bit of context. Toby will start with you. Tell 26 00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:01.629 us a little bit about yourself and what you and the team at compost and 27 00:02:01.790 --> 00:02:06.829 upland have been up to these days. Sure. So, I started composed 28 00:02:07.510 --> 00:02:13.150 about ten years ago and I've served as its CEO up until last spring when 29 00:02:13.189 --> 00:02:16.500 we became part of upland software, and we're really excited about that and being 30 00:02:16.580 --> 00:02:23.099 part of the upland family of software products and the composed. Our mission has 31 00:02:23.099 --> 00:02:27.139 always been to help large be to be more marketing organizations around their content, 32 00:02:27.659 --> 00:02:30.729 and specifically, what we want to do is enable them to have a consistent 33 00:02:30.930 --> 00:02:37.409 message across all their content assets, that's and all the different customer touch points 34 00:02:37.449 --> 00:02:39.250 along the journey. I love it. Zoe, tell us a little bit 35 00:02:39.289 --> 00:02:43.210 about yourself. What are you up to on the team these days? Yeah, 36 00:02:43.330 --> 00:02:46.000 so, like you mentioned, I am content architect, which basically means 37 00:02:46.039 --> 00:02:51.159 that I get to spend my days thinking about words. You know what we're 38 00:02:51.159 --> 00:02:53.919 saying and how we're saying it, which is a dream country for me, 39 00:02:53.680 --> 00:03:00.590 and it's especially fun because our audience it's marketers. So I get to talk 40 00:03:00.830 --> 00:03:04.550 to a bunch of people who are going through the same struggles that I am 41 00:03:04.789 --> 00:03:09.150 in bb marketing and really speak to the heart of what we're all going through 42 00:03:09.229 --> 00:03:15.340 and how we can create amazing, cusper experience through content. I love it 43 00:03:15.539 --> 00:03:19.139 absolutely. So tell us a little bit, guys. You know, as 44 00:03:19.259 --> 00:03:23.419 we teat up here, your new book mastering one voice. Why was it 45 00:03:23.539 --> 00:03:27.060 that you guys wanted to write this book? And, as the subtitle says, 46 00:03:27.409 --> 00:03:30.650 it's written in this format of fable and field guide. So tell us 47 00:03:30.650 --> 00:03:34.650 a little bit about, you know, the why behind the book and then, 48 00:03:34.689 --> 00:03:38.129 as you guys have brought it to life, what that process has been 49 00:03:38.250 --> 00:03:40.409 like. Then we'll dig into some of the key lessons in the themes that 50 00:03:40.479 --> 00:03:46.400 you guys are seeing that marketers can learn from. Sure. Well, you 51 00:03:46.520 --> 00:03:50.599 know, given that what we're focused on content for our customers, we've always 52 00:03:50.599 --> 00:03:53.159 had to produce a lot of content ourselves, of course, and we really 53 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:59.349 pioneered the whole field, the notion of content operations, and we've been writing 54 00:03:59.389 --> 00:04:02.469 about it for years and years and years and we've had all sorts of ebooks 55 00:04:02.509 --> 00:04:08.550 and blog posts and guides that help people with conceptual frameworks. You know, 56 00:04:08.669 --> 00:04:15.379 we have a whole content operations model that has three levels and four different phases 57 00:04:15.460 --> 00:04:20.019 and we've always explained all these best practices conceptually. But I thought for a 58 00:04:20.139 --> 00:04:26.610 long time I'm I love to tell stories and and try to explain and communicate, 59 00:04:26.689 --> 00:04:31.490 and I think you know, human beings actually most understand and communicate around 60 00:04:31.529 --> 00:04:36.129 actual fictional stories. And I was an English major way back when, and 61 00:04:36.209 --> 00:04:40.839 I'm also a huge fan of Patrick Lency ony that you know. Maybe some 62 00:04:40.920 --> 00:04:44.680 of your listeners have heard of he's quite popular. He writes a lot about 63 00:04:44.680 --> 00:04:49.199 business culture and how teams work together, and his books, particularly his most 64 00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:56.750 famous book five dysfunctions of a team, starts with fables and tells the point 65 00:04:56.829 --> 00:05:02.149 that he's trying to get across through fictional stories and then provides a conceptual framework. 66 00:05:02.230 --> 00:05:06.779 So for this book was someone I really wanted to do. We aggregate 67 00:05:06.899 --> 00:05:13.379 a lot of what we'd explain in terms of our various conceptual frameworks around content 68 00:05:13.459 --> 00:05:16.860 operations, but we wanted to do uniquely this time around was actually tell the 69 00:05:16.980 --> 00:05:23.250 story, and tell the story from both the perspective of a Bob Marketing Organization 70 00:05:23.410 --> 00:05:28.410 and what's going on inside that organization, and also from the perspective of their 71 00:05:28.529 --> 00:05:34.290 customer and how that customers interacting with the marketing content along the journey. And 72 00:05:34.410 --> 00:05:39.639 and so we just took a plunge. We made up a whole plot line 73 00:05:39.720 --> 00:05:44.319 and invented some characters and off we went and we just thought this would be 74 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:49.550 the best way to really convey all of our ideas on how marketing organizations can 75 00:05:49.670 --> 00:05:55.389 work better and ultimately drive better results through working together in a new, more 76 00:05:55.509 --> 00:05:59.110 collaborative, more lined way. I love it. It's obviously a topic that 77 00:05:59.189 --> 00:06:02.389 you guys are really passionate about. Toby Zoe is as content architect, I 78 00:06:02.470 --> 00:06:05.060 have to give you a chance to kind of chime in on you know, 79 00:06:05.180 --> 00:06:11.220 you're thinking around choosing this style, this format to communicate your story. You 80 00:06:11.339 --> 00:06:15.500 know, here at sweetfish, where big fans of Donald Miller, building a 81 00:06:15.579 --> 00:06:18.810 story brand. PODCAST is one that's in my regular rotation. So tell us 82 00:06:18.810 --> 00:06:21.930 a little bit about how you guys started to build the characters and kind of 83 00:06:21.970 --> 00:06:26.569 tell this story. I think it's really interesting that it unpacks the story from 84 00:06:26.610 --> 00:06:30.329 a BB marketers perspective as well as, you know, the customers perspective. 85 00:06:30.370 --> 00:06:34.240 Right. Yeah, I can't lie. When Toby First, you know, 86 00:06:34.439 --> 00:06:39.920 came to me, I've got this idea that's going to be a fable. 87 00:06:40.279 --> 00:06:43.319 I'm not. Okay, all right, I'll hear you out, but I 88 00:06:43.720 --> 00:06:47.029 was not entirely convinced. And then, you know, he gave me Patrick 89 00:06:47.069 --> 00:06:51.629 Lencione's book to read and I saw the way that it could work and we 90 00:06:51.670 --> 00:06:57.389 also just kind of started talking about it until we actually kicked off the writing 91 00:06:57.470 --> 00:07:00.980 and wrote a couple of the first chapters and I could already see the story 92 00:07:01.300 --> 00:07:06.220 taking place, and the thing is it's a really complicated thing that we're trying 93 00:07:06.259 --> 00:07:11.740 to explain here. Like toby mentioned earlier, we've got charts and levels and 94 00:07:11.899 --> 00:07:16.410 phases and it's easy to kind of read through that information and say, yeah, 95 00:07:16.410 --> 00:07:18.129 I get it, I get it. I think we're doing that, 96 00:07:18.649 --> 00:07:23.930 you know, in my business. But when you're confronted with characters that look 97 00:07:23.970 --> 00:07:28.329 like you and sound like you and your colleagues, you start to see yourself 98 00:07:28.649 --> 00:07:32.199 and your business reflected in the story in a way you might not in a 99 00:07:32.279 --> 00:07:35.680 white paper, and so I think it really allows people to hold up a 100 00:07:35.720 --> 00:07:43.759 mirror to themselves and see maybe there's a little more that they didn't see the 101 00:07:43.879 --> 00:07:47.029 first tie with a just read the information at or in a white paper or 102 00:07:47.110 --> 00:07:51.230 something like that. So it was very fun to kind of develop these characters 103 00:07:53.310 --> 00:07:57.110 and a lot of them are based on, you know, folks that we 104 00:07:57.470 --> 00:08:00.579 know or have worked with and we didn't just pull them out of thin air. 105 00:08:00.660 --> 00:08:05.500 It's really hopefully reflective of what real be to be enterprize marketers are going 106 00:08:05.579 --> 00:08:09.500 through and what they're experiencing. So yeah, and for me just to add 107 00:08:09.579 --> 00:08:13.930 to that a little bit, as I've been working with, you know, 108 00:08:13.050 --> 00:08:18.569 some of the largest be tob companies in the world, GEIBM, sales force, 109 00:08:18.689 --> 00:08:22.209 Fedex, on and on for ten years on this topic, and so 110 00:08:22.370 --> 00:08:28.759 the story was was pretty easy to envision because it's really just an amalgamation of 111 00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:33.799 all those interactions and all those experiences that I've had with those companies for four 112 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:35.159 years and years. And then, you know, it was a kind of 113 00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:41.399 crazy idea. I did get the ball rolling with the first few chapters and 114 00:08:41.470 --> 00:08:46.309 then I was very lucky to have of zoe is a partner because she's a 115 00:08:46.509 --> 00:08:50.830 fantastic writer and she loves to write and I think once she kind of realized 116 00:08:50.870 --> 00:08:58.059 that this was that ridiculous and and a sane idea, she I think excited 117 00:08:58.259 --> 00:09:03.539 and ran with it and built out and wrote the the bulk of the of 118 00:09:03.659 --> 00:09:07.940 the story, and so I think we were a good partnership in terms of 119 00:09:07.460 --> 00:09:13.570 me having some crazy ideas and her having some fantastic writing talent. Yeah, 120 00:09:13.649 --> 00:09:18.090 absolutely, it's always fantastic when those sorts of partnerships come to be. In 121 00:09:18.210 --> 00:09:22.730 as a journalism major myself, you know, hearing someone who says they just, 122 00:09:22.090 --> 00:09:26.600 you know, love thinking about and using words every day, you know 123 00:09:26.679 --> 00:09:30.639 I can tell that there's passion in what you do, Zoe. So let's 124 00:09:30.639 --> 00:09:33.720 talk about you know what this concept is all about. That is the title 125 00:09:33.799 --> 00:09:37.840 of the Book Mastering One voice, and I think you know, for some 126 00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:39.309 folks you know, as you said, to be you guys have been writing 127 00:09:39.350 --> 00:09:46.669 and blogging and speaking about content operations for years. It might be worthwhile to 128 00:09:46.110 --> 00:09:50.549 pause real quick and just define the term content operations in the way that you 129 00:09:50.629 --> 00:09:56.980 guys think about it and then start to unpack this idea of mastering one voice. 130 00:09:56.059 --> 00:10:01.220 What's the challenge and what's The opportunityy for marketers today? So I'll kick 131 00:10:01.220 --> 00:10:05.139 it back over to you for those. Sure great question. So a content 132 00:10:05.179 --> 00:10:09.570 operation is a set of processes inside of a marketing organization such that all the 133 00:10:09.649 --> 00:10:16.889 interactions with their customers along the journey have a consistent and personalized message and story. 134 00:10:18.490 --> 00:10:20.129 So let me step back and you know. And why is that so 135 00:10:20.250 --> 00:10:22.759 important? And how did this all come about? So over the last ten, 136 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:28.200 fifteen years and being marketing, things have changed, things have revolutionized in 137 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:31.919 the huge way. We've gone from being dissails support to an equal partner in 138 00:10:33.039 --> 00:10:35.389 the revenue machine and we've had to build out all these touch points, the 139 00:10:35.470 --> 00:10:39.830 video channel, the web channel, the blog channel, the email channel, 140 00:10:39.830 --> 00:10:41.470 the Webinar channel, the social channel, it goes on and on and on. 141 00:10:43.070 --> 00:10:48.149 So marketing has gotten way more complex managing all these different channels. There's 142 00:10:48.190 --> 00:10:50.899 still, of course, the sales and service channels that do a lot of 143 00:10:50.019 --> 00:10:54.940 human interaction with the customer. And then in large organizations you have different divisions 144 00:10:54.980 --> 00:10:58.740 and product lines, you have different geographies, and so you see all these 145 00:10:58.899 --> 00:11:05.049 different dimensions of complexity. In it actually gets nuts, to be honest. 146 00:11:05.049 --> 00:11:07.889 It gets totally nuts. And really large organizations in terms of you know, 147 00:11:07.970 --> 00:11:13.250 you have the email channel in Europe on the big data du saying one story 148 00:11:13.730 --> 00:11:18.799 and then you have the security be you in Asia in its blog channel, 149 00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:24.639 saying a whole nother story. In CMOS are finding that the message and the 150 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:28.960 story they're trying to be bring to market gets fractured and splintered and fragmented and 151 00:11:30.039 --> 00:11:35.389 it's all over the place, and often they find this in really ugly ways 152 00:11:35.429 --> 00:11:37.750 when they survey their their customers and they say, now, what do you 153 00:11:37.830 --> 00:11:41.389 think of when you think of our brand and our message? What are we 154 00:11:41.470 --> 00:11:45.909 trying to tell you? And they find in these studies firsthand just how all 155 00:11:46.149 --> 00:11:48.740 over their place, their story, in their message, is become and it 156 00:11:48.860 --> 00:11:52.940 really makes all their efforts as a marketers, they try to bring a story 157 00:11:54.100 --> 00:11:58.059 to market, all their efforts are wasted in a hideous way because, you 158 00:11:58.139 --> 00:12:01.730 know, you spend all this money to create content, build up these channels 159 00:12:01.769 --> 00:12:07.250 and you know, by amplification and by ADS and enable your sales team and 160 00:12:07.610 --> 00:12:13.730 many marketing leaders are finding in the wake of all this complexity we've built that 161 00:12:13.889 --> 00:12:18.960 they're just ended up confusing their customers because these customers are finding radically different messages 162 00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:24.480 and stories from all these different touchpoints. So a content operations the way of 163 00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:28.320 first taken a big deep breath and then saying hey, we need to work 164 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:35.389 together and how we create this customer experience and all these different teams need to 165 00:12:35.429 --> 00:12:39.909 be aligned on the same strategy in terms of what the message in the story 166 00:12:39.990 --> 00:12:43.870 is that we're trying to bring the market and then have a set of processes 167 00:12:43.230 --> 00:12:48.019 so that we can create all this content and a collaborative way so that each 168 00:12:48.100 --> 00:12:54.460 interaction, whether it's an email or a video or a sales meeting or a 169 00:12:54.580 --> 00:12:58.529 piece of you know, services or support collateral, all is consistently telling the 170 00:12:58.690 --> 00:13:05.370 same story, personalized appropriately to whomever that customer is, and so that's what 171 00:13:05.450 --> 00:13:13.759 a content operation is all about. 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Now I love it and I loved 185 00:14:24.750 --> 00:14:28.549 the more your passion on this subject that comes through, Toby, because you 186 00:14:28.629 --> 00:14:33.389 know, as you describe it like we all need to take a deep breath 187 00:14:33.629 --> 00:14:37.309 because we've created all of this complexity around us. I imagine that you know 188 00:14:37.389 --> 00:14:43.139 you see some of these same complexities and same challenges, no matter the size 189 00:14:43.299 --> 00:14:46.419 of the marketing team, where content gets created in a silo or something. 190 00:14:48.059 --> 00:14:52.379 Something is happening over here that other folks over in a different business unit or 191 00:14:52.419 --> 00:14:56.169 a different region didn't even know that was happening. Would you say that's true? 192 00:14:56.210 --> 00:15:00.610 I would always just laugh because you know, we serve all kinds of 193 00:15:00.690 --> 00:15:07.090 baby companies, financial services companies, chemical and food manufacturing companies, you know, 194 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:13.759 industrial companies, technology companies, energy companies, all kinds, all different 195 00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:16.399 shapes and sizes. We don't really do small businesses, but we do know 196 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:20.960 high growth midsize companies. We do the biggest of the big companies. Be 197 00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:24.789 Do companies all over the world and it just it always but I when you 198 00:15:24.870 --> 00:15:28.950 know a salesperson will come back and tell me how I'm meeting. When are 199 00:15:28.990 --> 00:15:33.909 all go and see someone in this story is the same. Everywhere in the 200 00:15:33.990 --> 00:15:37.379 story is the same everywhere. You know about that. This this kind of 201 00:15:37.860 --> 00:15:43.539 Frankenstein like monster of complexity they've created in the impact that that is happening on 202 00:15:43.620 --> 00:15:48.820 their customers and their experience. And so again, the story that Zoe and 203 00:15:48.899 --> 00:15:52.490 I decided to tell was really just a distillation of what you know. I 204 00:15:52.690 --> 00:15:58.649 had particularly heard over and over again from all of these marketing organizations and, 205 00:15:58.730 --> 00:16:03.009 as different as they all are and as different as all their businesses are, 206 00:16:03.490 --> 00:16:07.679 ultimately the story it was uncanny how consistent it was for every business. And 207 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:12.600 funny enough as though, and I have shared the draft of our book with 208 00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:17.120 different people, it's so far they laugh and they say, Oh, that's 209 00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:22.269 me, and everyone sees themselves in this fable that we put together just because 210 00:16:22.750 --> 00:16:26.389 the experience in the story is so consistent across all these businesses. Oh Man, 211 00:16:26.870 --> 00:16:30.830 again, just your experience in talking to all these marketers just just comes 212 00:16:30.909 --> 00:16:34.299 through, Toby. So you know, we've put forth a lot of the 213 00:16:34.379 --> 00:16:40.340 the realities, the challenges that everyone is facing. What are some of the 214 00:16:40.419 --> 00:16:45.259 things that that you guys recommend in the book and as you're talking to your 215 00:16:45.419 --> 00:16:49.169 customers that are in bb marketing. What are some of your recommendations on what 216 00:16:49.330 --> 00:16:55.610 sales and marketing leaders can do to, as you call, master one voice 217 00:16:55.730 --> 00:17:02.240 and deal with this complex set of circumstances in their content operations that have built 218 00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:06.640 up or been built up around them? First I want to say you can 219 00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:08.400 see I may have done a lot of the writing, but you can see 220 00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:14.160 how nice it is to have a brain like toby's behind these kinds of efforts, 221 00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:17.789 because you can take all this and just put it right on the page 222 00:17:17.829 --> 00:17:21.869 and it really comes through. But yeah, I think that one of our 223 00:17:21.950 --> 00:17:26.670 big messages in the book and what we see so often is simply that it 224 00:17:26.029 --> 00:17:30.339 really starts by taking a look inside and getting your house in order. And 225 00:17:30.700 --> 00:17:36.339 people are really, really eager for external solutions. You know, how can 226 00:17:36.420 --> 00:17:40.259 we automate our content so it gets where it needs to be faster? How 227 00:17:40.299 --> 00:17:44.140 can we package it in a more exciting way? How can we deliver it 228 00:17:44.329 --> 00:17:48.849 in a more quote unquote, personalized way? And what we find really is 229 00:17:48.970 --> 00:17:52.450 that the first thing people need to do is really it's not sexy, but 230 00:17:52.849 --> 00:17:56.930 they need to sit down and talk to one another. And you hear this 231 00:17:56.049 --> 00:18:03.240 from our professional services folks all the time that they'll come into an organization and 232 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:07.160 what they find is, when they get the folks they need in a room, 233 00:18:07.559 --> 00:18:12.269 they find that they're introducing themselves to one another because they haven't gotten together 234 00:18:12.309 --> 00:18:17.869 before, they haven't spoken to together before, and they're really the first step 235 00:18:18.069 --> 00:18:22.069 is that people get together and agree. What are we trying to achieve and 236 00:18:22.150 --> 00:18:25.630 how are we going to achieve it together? What are we trying to say 237 00:18:25.910 --> 00:18:30.220 and how does that message filter through all of our bus at, our product 238 00:18:30.259 --> 00:18:34.059 lines and our geographies? But if you don't have the first answer, you're 239 00:18:34.099 --> 00:18:38.339 never going to get to all of these those other answers. So really conversation, 240 00:18:38.420 --> 00:18:42.049 I think, is the first step. Getting aligned. Absolutely. I 241 00:18:42.170 --> 00:18:47.329 love it, Zoe. What are you guys seeing as far as teams? 242 00:18:47.410 --> 00:18:51.890 As you mentioned, Zoe, it's an internal struggle that that needs to happen. 243 00:18:51.890 --> 00:18:55.920 It's not so much how you're getting the content out there to market it, 244 00:18:56.160 --> 00:18:59.599 it's, as toby was saying earlier, take a deep breath and getting 245 00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:04.319 on the same page internally. Who are you seeing that are successfully kind of 246 00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:11.109 championing this charge of mastering one voice internally and getting everyone aligned, getting everyone 247 00:19:11.269 --> 00:19:15.269 on the same page, getting everyone to stop and say, hold on, 248 00:19:15.549 --> 00:19:19.150 we're telling disjointed stories, we need to pause for a second, because that 249 00:19:19.349 --> 00:19:23.190 pause is going to, you know, not keep going fast in the wrong 250 00:19:23.299 --> 00:19:26.099 direction, but it is going to help us, you know, write the 251 00:19:26.180 --> 00:19:30.660 ship or whatever the case might be. How are you guys seeing teams start 252 00:19:30.779 --> 00:19:37.140 to make that shift? WHO, inside the organizations have been successfully kind of 253 00:19:37.220 --> 00:19:41.210 championing this cause in your opinion? You know, it's a whole range of 254 00:19:41.410 --> 00:19:45.569 people. You know, we've seen it. A leader of demand Jin, 255 00:19:45.170 --> 00:19:51.210 a leader of product marketing. There's getting to be more and more content. 256 00:19:51.650 --> 00:19:55.880 You know, people that are content marketing leaders, of VP of content who 257 00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:59.920 sometimes take the mantle. So it can be, you know, a functional 258 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:03.440 leader, but typically, you know, and they might get it going on 259 00:20:03.559 --> 00:20:07.630 a small team and a division, but really for it to succeed it's got 260 00:20:07.789 --> 00:20:12.670 to get to the marketing leader of that division or the you know, the 261 00:20:12.789 --> 00:20:17.430 head of marketing overall. So, you know, to give you some examples, 262 00:20:17.509 --> 00:20:22.779 you know IBM has really prioritized content and they have an executive, George 263 00:20:22.819 --> 00:20:27.259 Hammer, who leads all the content efforts across all of IBM. So, 264 00:20:27.700 --> 00:20:32.819 you know, we didn't begin working with him there there were some kind of 265 00:20:33.259 --> 00:20:38.250 small efforts bubbling up across the organization, but his leadership really crystallize the effort 266 00:20:38.490 --> 00:20:42.849 so that they really could take their marketing efforts to another level. At sales 267 00:20:44.009 --> 00:20:48.890 force, funny enough, we started working with a woman named Jessica Birdman who 268 00:20:48.009 --> 00:20:53.319 is leading content at a Boston based startup called demand where and really did a 269 00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:59.319 great job of unifying all their content and telling a consistent story at demand where. 270 00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:03.430 Demand where then, you might recall, got bought by sales force and 271 00:21:03.630 --> 00:21:08.589 she became part of that team. And then the CMO of sales for Stephanie 272 00:21:08.589 --> 00:21:12.230 Buschemi, said Hey, you know what, we really could take it to 273 00:21:12.309 --> 00:21:18.269 another level in terms of how we produce our content, in the consistency of 274 00:21:18.349 --> 00:21:21.500 our message and all of our touch points, and she made it one of 275 00:21:21.539 --> 00:21:23.819 her very top priorities. And then she was like, how can I do 276 00:21:25.019 --> 00:21:27.619 this? Who knows how to do this? And she found Jessica, who 277 00:21:27.619 --> 00:21:34.490 had been brought into sales force through the acquisition, and now Jessica is really 278 00:21:34.569 --> 00:21:40.970 the key person, you know, working under this top priority for Stephanie, 279 00:21:41.049 --> 00:21:44.849 that the Como of sales force, to bring what they call a unified content 280 00:21:45.049 --> 00:21:48.400 strategy across all of sales force, all of its regions, all of its 281 00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:52.599 clouds and business units. So I to answer your question Logan. You know, 282 00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:56.759 usually there's some champion who's sort of a mid level leader, who is 283 00:21:56.960 --> 00:22:02.869 who's leading the charge, and then they ultimately partner with that top level marketing 284 00:22:02.950 --> 00:22:07.789 executive. And in fact, and thoughing Nice fable, that's just what happens. 285 00:22:07.829 --> 00:22:10.869 But we know, we don't want to spill all the details, but 286 00:22:11.069 --> 00:22:12.950 people can see how that happens. YEA, in that fable, but again 287 00:22:12.990 --> 00:22:18.019 it reflects the experience and what we've seen with our customers. Yeah, as 288 00:22:18.059 --> 00:22:22.420 you have marketing leaders, as you as you mentioned a few folks that are 289 00:22:22.460 --> 00:22:26.299 championing the cause right now in different organizations. Toby Zoe, whoever kind of 290 00:22:26.380 --> 00:22:30.730 wants to take this one. You know, I think identifying the problem, 291 00:22:30.769 --> 00:22:33.089 as you mentioned, sharing the draft of the book, you kind of got 292 00:22:33.170 --> 00:22:37.369 these smiles and nods and yes, that's what's happening and I think identifying the 293 00:22:37.490 --> 00:22:41.769 problem is is a first step. It's maybe a little bit easier than realizing 294 00:22:41.849 --> 00:22:47.680 where do we go from here, and so getting internal alignment being one step, 295 00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:51.799 then taking the the problem to leadership you know, I imagine the next 296 00:22:51.799 --> 00:22:56.319 step is then getting leaderships by in into an action plan. And the next 297 00:22:56.400 --> 00:23:00.910 step, so for folks who identify the problem want to start that conversation of 298 00:23:00.990 --> 00:23:06.190 internal alignment on what is the story that we're telling? What are some of 299 00:23:06.230 --> 00:23:10.910 the ways that you advise them to start the conversation, get some early wins 300 00:23:10.990 --> 00:23:15.140 and get more of the team on board? Well, I think that a 301 00:23:15.220 --> 00:23:21.380 lot of the times what really helps people is getting those other departments really on 302 00:23:21.619 --> 00:23:27.289 board and clamoring for answers. So we've seen a lot of folks it gets 303 00:23:27.329 --> 00:23:34.529 success by by talking with sales actually and getting sales on board understanding that if, 304 00:23:34.769 --> 00:23:38.049 if marketing is more aligned and they have better content and then sales has 305 00:23:38.089 --> 00:23:44.440 access to that content, you know how many hours we sales people could be 306 00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:48.160 saving and in searching for the content that they don't have, or how many 307 00:23:48.200 --> 00:23:52.759 better and bigger deals they can be making by having the right content for the 308 00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:56.150 right context and be able to use it and deliver it. And so a 309 00:23:56.190 --> 00:24:03.829 lot of times building that pressure is often often helps from outside of marketing actually 310 00:24:03.950 --> 00:24:07.269 and really connecting it to revenue in a real way. Sure, yeah, 311 00:24:07.269 --> 00:24:11.900 I think that's get connecting it out to revenue, and no one has this 312 00:24:12.140 --> 00:24:17.819 way around revenue. And and you know the criticality of projects like the sales 313 00:24:17.859 --> 00:24:21.500 leadership. So I think so brings a great point. I think another great 314 00:24:21.579 --> 00:24:25.930 step is, okay, obviously this is a problem we're hearing from our customers 315 00:24:25.970 --> 00:24:30.930 that were confusing them with all these inconsistent interactions. Where's your point Logan? 316 00:24:30.970 --> 00:24:33.089 Where do we start? What do we do? And so you know and 317 00:24:33.569 --> 00:24:37.809 you start, we feel, with an assessment and you have to break this 318 00:24:37.049 --> 00:24:42.200 problem down into its component parts. And we've created models and framework and we 319 00:24:42.279 --> 00:24:48.759 actually have an online kind of automated assessment that's totally free and and we have 320 00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:52.279 other assessments. You do, but you can start to break down and say, 321 00:24:52.279 --> 00:24:55.630 okay, you know there's a planning stage, there's a production stage, 322 00:24:55.670 --> 00:25:00.269 there's a distribution stage, there's analytics stage, there's also levels. You know, 323 00:25:00.349 --> 00:25:03.910 we doing working at kind of the execution level, the collaboration level, 324 00:25:03.069 --> 00:25:07.740 the governance level we have. So we have this three by four model in 325 00:25:07.980 --> 00:25:14.140 twelve different jobs to be done that aligned at the intersection of those three and 326 00:25:14.299 --> 00:25:19.420 four dimensions and through that assessment you can start to get your arms around the 327 00:25:19.940 --> 00:25:25.170 problem and understand. Okay, where where are we stronger and where are there 328 00:25:25.289 --> 00:25:27.890 some real holes that are, you know, low, low hanging fruit that 329 00:25:27.930 --> 00:25:33.609 if we address immediately, we can get some big gains, and so that's 330 00:25:33.690 --> 00:25:37.240 what we really typically recommend to our customers as where they should start and where 331 00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:41.559 they should go, as they say, okay, I have this problem. 332 00:25:41.960 --> 00:25:45.599 Now how should I take those next steps? That assessment typically helps, and 333 00:25:45.640 --> 00:25:51.549 I think the book so to. We lay out that framework and give people 334 00:25:51.549 --> 00:25:55.990 a notion of what that frameworks about and how they could think about it in 335 00:25:56.069 --> 00:26:00.589 regards to their own organization. The great and I think also a good point 336 00:26:00.670 --> 00:26:04.259 there, is that it's really about prioritize a which of those pieces you want 337 00:26:04.259 --> 00:26:07.220 to tackle firus and knowing that you can do it all at once and that 338 00:26:07.579 --> 00:26:12.220 you probably shouldn't also have everyone on board at once, is important to kind 339 00:26:12.220 --> 00:26:18.609 of find the group of folks you know across section of people or you know, 340 00:26:18.690 --> 00:26:23.849 you might pick a few different teams within marketing and sales enablement that you 341 00:26:23.970 --> 00:26:29.289 want to do a pilot program with and really focus on getting it right at 342 00:26:29.329 --> 00:26:33.640 a smaller scale and then expanding out. If you try to get everyone on 343 00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:38.039 board right away you're going to experience those growing pains on a much larger scale. 344 00:26:40.039 --> 00:26:45.480 So getting that that Core Group of folks who is willing and ready to 345 00:26:45.559 --> 00:26:49.509 to make an effort to do something different, and then once she starts seeing 346 00:26:49.589 --> 00:26:53.670 those wins, you're going to have to be bear hitting the doors to keep 347 00:26:53.750 --> 00:26:57.750 people up. Because, yeah, yeah, I love it. I mean 348 00:26:57.789 --> 00:27:02.019 it reminds me of what we've heard on this show from a lot of our 349 00:27:02.059 --> 00:27:07.099 past guests. So and to be about their shift to account based marketing and 350 00:27:07.539 --> 00:27:11.460 starting with some sort of pilot starting with, you know, some some key 351 00:27:11.619 --> 00:27:15.930 allies on the sales team, to begin testing the waters with abm and those 352 00:27:15.970 --> 00:27:21.849 sorts of things before you try and go far and wide and and go deep 353 00:27:22.049 --> 00:27:26.049 with a small group. And it sounds like you know, that same recommendation, 354 00:27:26.250 --> 00:27:30.119 that same piece of advice, is echoed here for you guys in for 355 00:27:30.279 --> 00:27:33.960 marketing teams trying to get their content operations in order. Well, I love 356 00:27:34.039 --> 00:27:38.839 the passion that you guys have brought to this and I love this this model 357 00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:42.880 for for the book that you guys have followed here at sweetfish, where big 358 00:27:42.920 --> 00:27:48.630 fans of lots of the content out from Patrick Lyncay only. So seeing another 359 00:27:48.750 --> 00:27:52.750 kind of in in that vein is really interesting to me. We did we 360 00:27:52.910 --> 00:27:56.309 went through five dysfunctions of a team last year in our regular monthly book club 361 00:27:56.349 --> 00:28:00.660 here at Sweet Fish. So for folks like me that are excited now that 362 00:28:00.779 --> 00:28:03.940 this book is out and want to see, okay, maybe I can identify 363 00:28:04.220 --> 00:28:08.299 with kind of the mess of content operations and then figure out what is the 364 00:28:08.500 --> 00:28:11.339 the field guide that I can follow? What are some of the frameworks I 365 00:28:11.539 --> 00:28:17.009 can follow to get out of that mess? What's the best way for them 366 00:28:17.089 --> 00:28:19.210 to go further? The book is out now, where the can they find 367 00:28:19.250 --> 00:28:22.769 it? How can they stay connected with you guys, till we all kick 368 00:28:22.769 --> 00:28:25.890 it over to you first as we round it out today? Man, I 369 00:28:26.089 --> 00:28:29.079 appreciate it, but I'm going to defer to Zoe who I think can answer 370 00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:36.640 this question better than I can. Just the book is available at Content Operationscom. 371 00:28:37.359 --> 00:28:42.869 You can then from there there's a direct link to the Amazon link and 372 00:28:44.470 --> 00:28:51.309 if you use for listeners who are listening today, using the discount code growth, 373 00:28:51.509 --> 00:28:56.380 will give you a thirty percent off there for your purchase. And if 374 00:28:56.420 --> 00:29:00.380 you want to connect with me, I'm on Linkedin and Zoe brands off. 375 00:29:00.980 --> 00:29:03.779 I appreciated. Zoe. All right, content OPERATIONSCOM. That Promo Code is 376 00:29:03.900 --> 00:29:07.339 growth for thirty percent off the book. tellby. How about you as linked 377 00:29:07.380 --> 00:29:11.250 in, the best way to get in touch with you as well? Yeah, 378 00:29:11.289 --> 00:29:15.410 I'm Toby Partcom Linkedin and would love to chat with listeners on their thoughts 379 00:29:15.450 --> 00:29:18.369 on the book. Awesome. Well, Toby Zoe. This has been a 380 00:29:18.410 --> 00:29:22.490 great conversation. CONGRATS on the book launch and the tour. I hear you 381 00:29:22.529 --> 00:29:26.920 guys are doing some events and stuff here coming up. So much luck and 382 00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:29.799 safe travels and all of that. Thank you for being on the show today. 383 00:29:30.039 --> 00:29:32.519 Thanks so much for having us. Yeah, thank you, we loved 384 00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:37.079 it. Hey, there, this is James Carberry, founder a street fish 385 00:29:37.119 --> 00:29:41.150 media and one of the cohosts of this show. The last year and a 386 00:29:41.190 --> 00:29:45.029 half I've been working on my very first book. In the book I share 387 00:29:45.109 --> 00:29:48.349 the three part framework we used as the foundation for our growth here sweetfish. 388 00:29:48.789 --> 00:29:52.549 Now there are lots of companies that ever. He's a bunch of money and 389 00:29:52.670 --> 00:29:55.740 have grown insanely fast, and we featured a lot of them here on the 390 00:29:55.819 --> 00:30:00.660 show. We've decided to bootstrap our business, which usually equates to pretty slow 391 00:30:00.740 --> 00:30:03.859 growth, but using the strategy outlined in the book, we are on pace 392 00:30:03.940 --> 00:30:07.690 to be one of ink's fastest growing companies in two thousand and twenty. The 393 00:30:07.769 --> 00:30:11.930 book is called content based networking, how to instantly connect with anyone you want 394 00:30:11.970 --> 00:30:15.490 to know. If you're a fan of audio books like me, you can 395 00:30:15.490 --> 00:30:18.210 find the book on audible or, I'd be like physical books. You can 396 00:30:18.250 --> 00:30:22.960 also find it on Amazon. Just search content based networking or James Carberry, 397 00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:26.960 CR be aary, inaudible, or Amazon and it should pop right up.