Transcript
WEBVTT
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Are you struggling to come up with
original content weekend and week out? Start
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a podcast, interview your ideal clients, let them talk about what they care
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MEDIACOM. You're listening to be tob
growth, a daily podcast for B TOB
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leaders. We've interviewed names you've probably
heard before, like Gary Vanner, truck
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and Simon Senek, but you've probably
never heard from the majority of our guests.
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That's because the bulk of our interviews
aren't with professional speakers and authors.
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Most of our guests are in the
trenches leading sales and marketing teams. They're
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implementing strategy, they're experimenting with tactics, they're building the fastest growing BB companies
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in the world. My name is
James Carberry. I'm the founder of sweet
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fish media, a podcast agency for
BB brands, and I'm also one of
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the CO hosts of this show.
When we're not interviewing sales and marketing leaders,
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you'll hear stories from behind the scenes
of our own business. Will share
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the ups and downs of our journey
as we attempt to take over the world.
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Just getting well, maybe let's get
into the show. Welcome back to
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be tob growth. I'm Logan lyles
with sweet fish media. I'm joined today
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by Dan Louden. He is the
CMO over at white ops. Dand how's
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it going today, sir? Great
Logan, thanks for having me on the
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show. Absolutely working. Be Talking
about how to eliminate bad traffic on your
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website and also really what are the
consequences of not doing that as a marketer
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today and some of the surprising stats
that you guys have found with some companies
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as far as the amount of bad
traffic that was actually happening on their site.
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But will we jump into today's topic? Dan, give us a little
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bit of background on yourself and what
you and the team at white ops are
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up to these days for a little
bit of context. You had so I'm
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in the CMO at white ops.
I've been in high tech and be to
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be marketing for my entire career over
twenty years, all the way back to
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IBM and early days of mobility to
cyber security over the past seven years.
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I joined white ops about seven months
ago because of their mission. Their mission
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is to protect the integrity of the
Internet by impacting the ability of cyber criminals
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from a financial perspective, and when
I heard about that mission and who they
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were working with in the scale of
being able to monitor the interactions of one
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trillion interactions per week for some of
the largest Internet service providers and some of
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the top brands, is, some
of the top enterprises, I got really
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excited to join the company because it's
an incredible mission and, you know,
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really really excited to go help companies
solve this very difficult problem of bought traffic,
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sophisticated bought traffic impacting their you know, marketing elements and marketing campaigns.
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Yeah, absolutely, as you and
I were talking about offline, that this
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sophistication of bots is as really,
you know, increased a lot in recent
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years and it can have a financial
impact. You know, I love hearing
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the word Internet in integrity in the
same sentence. You know, in marketing
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we talked a lot about social media
and those two don't don't line up real
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well. But anyway, I digress
a little bit. Let's kick it off,
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Dan and talking a little bit about
why you should start analyzing your traffic
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to your site and some of the
consequences and the the important aspects of seeing.
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Okay, do I have, quote
unquote, bad traffic? Do I
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have a lot of bought traffic on
my site? And then we're going to
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speak to a little bit what to
do about that. But I think we've
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got to kick it off with a
little bit of, you know, overview
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and high level. Why is this
important? Why should be to be marketers
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really care? Yeah, because it
you know it right now. It's happening
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and you may not know it right
sophisticated bots now look and act like humans.
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They sit on consumer machines, they
click on ads, they visit websites,
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they fill out forms, they take
over accounts, they commit payment fraud,
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they do all these things while they
look like a human and they live
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on human devices. And you know, at white ops were all about stopping
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them. These are sophisticated bots that
that may be coming to your site,
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that you may see a lot of
traffic all of a sudden, coming to
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your site after a campaign that you
put out there, but the conversion rates
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are not what you expect them to
be and you're spending a lot of marketing
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dollars out there to drive traffic to
your site. You want to make sure
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that that's human engagement, not bought
traffic or sophisticated bought traffic that you're sending
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your marketing and limited marketing dollars to. So it's a very, very big
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problem. I'll give you one example
of a very large botton net that white
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ops was a part of was a
leader of of taking down. There was
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a group that we code named Eve
V, is what it stands for.
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It's a botnet that had control of
over one point seven million consumer machines.
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They were sending as many as twelve
billion request per day that were fraudulent and
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it was impacting brands all over the
globe. So White opps recognize that this
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was happening. We brought in the
FBI, we brought in Google, facebook
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and many other players in the industry
and we were able to actually determine who
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they were, where they were.
And this group was based out of the
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Ukraine and Russia and they thought they
were untouchable and then they just several of
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them, decided to go on a
trip and landed in an airport where actually
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the FBI and local authorities were waiting
for them. And now those folks are
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in jail in Brooklyn and just got
forty year term sentences. So, as
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I went back to our mission,
we're all about disrupting the economics of cyber
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crime, making it hard for these
guys to do it because it is impacting
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be tobe and businesses across the globe. And that just shows you the scale
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of one large Bot net organization.
There are thousands of them and it's really
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impacting business and it's really impacting bedb
marketers because it's taking their budgets and,
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you know, making it hard for
them to drive traffic to their site and
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engagement with with real humans. Yeah, I mean you talk about limited marketing
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budget. As we talked to marketers
every day here on this show and offline
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in conversations I'm having, doing more
with a limited budget is definitely top of
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mine for pretty much every be to
be marketer I have, and the thing
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that I pull from that story is
one great job by you guys in catching
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the crooks and and I love to
hear that victory. But twelve billion,
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you said billion with a bee on
those amount of interactions and the economic impact
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that that's having on the marketing spend. As we were chatting a little bit
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offline to Dan, you mentioned another
surprising stat one customer was kind of almost
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fell out of their chair looking at
the amount of their web traffic that was
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actually bad traffic. Right, that's
right. You know, we had a
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very large brand that did a big
marketing campaign. They had tremendous results from
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a standpoint of people coming to their
website and filling out forms, but when
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those forms were given to their sales
team, the sales team called on those
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leads and Nope, nobody was there. And when they tried to retarget those
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same type of interactions, there was
not the conversion rates that they anticipated.
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So a lot of traffic to their
site but the conversion rates were low.
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In this case, they originally thought
they had a covered with current tools.
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They thought maybe the fraud traffic or
bought traffic was the three to five percent
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range. When we put the white
opps tag on their website in their campaign
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pages, we actually were able to
determine that thirty eight percent of the traffic
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going to their site was sophisticated bought
activity and not human. So they were
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spending dollars on form fills, paying
that through the ecosystem that would then go
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in the hands of the bad guys. So thirty eight percent of their marketing
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budget was wasted on marketing to bots. And that's the big problem and that's
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the big educational part that white OPS
is trying to work with many brands across
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the globe to make them aware of
this potential problem. Yeah, absolutely.
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I mean, you know, it
sounds like that's probably about x what what
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they would have assumed. I think
most people kind of think, oh,
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three to five percent range is probably, you know, bad trafficker or bought
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traffic, and close to forty percent
in that case. One of the things
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you touched on I think is worth
kind of stopping on for a second.
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You mentioned kind of one of these
telltale signs, at least in this example,
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was abnormally high volume with low conversion. Is that something that marketer should
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be kind of keeping their eyes out
for? An any other red flags that
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you think marketers should have kind of
in the forefront? Is they think about
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this idea of bad traffic and trying
to prevent it? Yeah, I mean
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I think, you know, certainly
heavy traffick to their site that can't be
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explained or then going to your conversion
rates and saying why are they so low?
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Those are red flags right. So
you we do all these tactics and
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spend dollars on lead generation, display
advertising, organic traffic, native advertising,
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social media, Seo, sem keyword
search, and you're getting all these results
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and driving traffic to your site.
So it's also important to have visibility into
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which one of those areas is driving
the most human engagement or prospect engagement,
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and then you're able to also tell
which one of those or all those different
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aspects of tactics from a marketing perspective
is driving bought traffic. So with the
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ability to put the white opps tag
on their campaign pages or their website,
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these brands are able to determine where
that good traffic is coming from and then
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they could should go spend more dollars
there, because they're going to see higher
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conversion rates. If, with our
tag on their site, they're able to
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see where the BOT traffic is coming
from, then they're going to say I'm
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going to stop investing here and move
those dollars where we know we're going to
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have great engagement, and then that's
where the higher conversion rates come from,
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that's where the better retargeting happens,
and that's also making sure your sales team
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is getting the best leads. So
sales is going to be happier because the
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leads are going to be that much
more, you know, positive and verified.
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And then at the same time you
want to make sure that that Bot
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traffic in the information that those bots
are filling forms in and information and don't
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go into your crm systems. You
want to keep your database clean. You
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want to keep the BOT traffic out
of that, otherwise it really clouds that
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picture as well. Absolutely. I
mean the ripple effect of that bad data
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can really move out quickly and,
as you mentioned, you know some of
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the the benefits of removing that bad
bought traffic from from your traffic. That
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may look like, Oh, we
got a windfall, you know, we
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wrote some really good copy in that
campaign, but realizing that it was bad
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traffic and taking the time to take
steps to eliminate that bad traffic can lead
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to better, better leads for the
sales team, better data going into your
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marketing automation and crm platforms that are
retargeting, higher conversion and I think one
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of the most important things saving you
marketing dollars by not spending money on on
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those bad add clicks that are that
are not worth anything anyway, is that
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about? Someone up pretty well,
Dan. Yeah, I mean incredibly well.
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And you know, the key thing
marketers are being asked to be,
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you know, more dry driver of
business right and business results, and it
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we're getting its more pressure being put
on companies to be successful in drive engagement
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into, you know, drive business. So this is an incredible important piece
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of what brands should look at because
if they go fix this problem and,
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you know, stop the thirty some
percent of the the BOT travel it coming
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through their website and wasting advertising dollars, the marketer is actually going to be
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tremendously more successful because, you know, they're going to be able to,
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you know, have a more efficient
spend of their marketing budgets. They're going
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to eliminate or they'll eliminate the cookie
dependency because, you know, though,
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they'll now know that, you know, it's human traffic in and versus BOT
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traffic. They'll optimize their conversion rates, they'll maintain their data hygiene, which
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is really, really important, but
really, in the end it's going to
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increase business results and that's any marketers
dream, and you know, that's our
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goal. To help sales be successful, or the sales part of the company
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be successful and drive revenue. And
you know, that's the results that we're
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seeing here when we put the white
opps tag on site, is that we've
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seen some instances where the conversion rates
go up as high as six hundred percent
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once they fix the sophisticated bought traffic
issue. Yeah, it seems like that
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is what that conversion rate is something
that, you know, everyone should have
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their their eyes on right now for
any sort of disparity or sudden drop or,
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you know, consistent low performance that
otherwise kind of unexplainable that can kind
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of, as you mentioned earlier,
raise that red flag and let you know,
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hey, maybe there's a problem that
that you need to investigate here.
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Imagine it a spreadsheet filled with rows
and rows of your sales enablement assets.
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00:14:05.809 --> 00:14:11.600
You've devoted two years organizing this masterpiece, only for it to stop making sense.
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00:14:11.080 --> 00:14:16.320
This was Chad forbuccoes reality. As
the head of sales enablement at glint,
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00:14:16.440 --> 00:14:20.720
a linkedin company, he's responsible for
instilling confidence in his sales reps and
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00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:24.909
arming them with the information they need
to do their jobs. However, when
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00:14:24.950 --> 00:14:28.429
his glorious spreadsheet became too complex,
he realized he needed a new system.
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00:14:30.070 --> 00:14:33.590
That's when Chad turned to guru.
With Guru, the knowledge you need to
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do your job finds you. Between
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workflow. No more siload or staled
information. Guru acts as your single source
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of truth. For Chad, this
meant glent sales reps were left feeling more
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confident doing their jobs. See why
leading companies like glint, shopify, spotify,
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slack and more are using guru for
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growth dot get gurucom to start your
thirty day free trial and discover how knowledge
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management can empower your revenue teams.
Dan, anything else you want to add
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as we wrap up here? I'm
thinking, you know a lot of marketers
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listening to this. There may be
something worth adding about, you know,
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alignment with the technical function, with
with their it group within their own company.
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Any thoughts there on kind of marketing
and and the technical side of the
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house putting their heads together in,
you know, solving this problem or tackling
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something once they realize, Oh hey, there is a red flag over here,
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we need to do something about it. Yeah, I think the key
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thing is is for marketers to recognize
that this is an opportunity for them to
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have a very big impact on the
business. This isn't an IT problem,
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this isn't necessarily as cybersecurity problem.
It is, but the marketers have the
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most at stake here and if they
go and attack this problem and bring in
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their it folks or bring in their
cybersecurity team to say let's look at this
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together as a group, and more
and more we're going into meetings where the
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CMO is there, the SSO is
there, the head of it is there
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because they realize this is a shared
problem for the company. It's a big
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problem for the company. So it
increases the collaboration for the CMO to and
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head of marketing to engage with other
parts of the business. That helps solve
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this business problem and we're finding marketing
leaders who who take the forward step on
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this are really seeing high paybacks and
are becoming heroes of the company because they're
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seeing better business results. And it
is a marketers you know, we have
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to lean in. It's our responsibility
and for me, being a marketer,
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I take this personally because I my
marketing dollars. You know I have to
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spend very wisely and I want to
see the most returned with it. I
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want to see the best interaction that
I can have with customers and I don't
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want to waste any of those dollars
targeting sophisticated thoughts. HMM. Yeah,
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I mean, for as much as
we talk about sales and marketing alignment,
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it's nice to hear you know,
there is a strong case for marketing and
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IT and security alignment. You know
all about, as you mentioned, this
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idea of marketing leaning into driving business
results that that impact revenue, and I
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think that's a common theme it when
you look at, you know, sales
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and marketing alignment and what you're bringing
up here in aligning with your technical leaders
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internally as well. Dan, if
anybody listening to this would like to asking
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follow up questions of you stay connected
or learn a little bit more about what
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you and the team at white ops
are up to these days, what's the
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best way for them to reach out? You Bet so. I mean our
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website is www dot white opscom and
I'll just say I'll give you my personal
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email on Dan dot loudon. That's
Lowden at White opscom. We'd be happy
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to have further conversations with you and
and you know, bring visibility to this
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problem, making people aware that this
is going on. They may not have
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visibility into our into it or know
about it, putting that tag on their
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site to be able to get clear
visibility of where the the good traffic is
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versus the BOT traffic is. We're
happy to help brands overcome this. It's
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our mission as a company, as
a cyber security company, to help brands
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overcome this problem and, as we
also said earlier, from a mission perspective,
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disrupt the economics of cyber crime.
That's how we're going to win and
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there is an opportunity for us to
win against the bad guys if we work
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together. I love it. We
are always saying here at sweet fish we
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can go faster further together than we
can go alone. So I love that
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you ended on that togetherness point.
Dan, thank you so much for joining
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us on the show today. My
pleasure. Thanks for having me. We
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totally get it. We publish a
ton of content on this podcast and it
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can be a lot to keep up
with. That's why we've started the BOB
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growth big three, a no fluff
email that boils down our three biggest takeaways
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00:19:18.589 --> 00:19:25.180
from an entire week of episodes.
Sign up today at Sweet Phish Mediacom Big
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00:19:25.299 --> 00:19:29.180
Three. That sweet PHISH MEDIACOM Big
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