Oct. 31, 2019

1147: How to Understand and Leverage the Difference Between Brand Marketing and Performance Marketing w/ Chris Walker

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In this episode we talk to Chris Walker, CEO at Refine Labs.


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Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:04.280 A relationship with the right referral partner could be a game changer for any be 2 00:00:04.440 --> 00:00:08.509 to be company. So what if you could reverse engineer these relationships at a 3 00:00:08.630 --> 00:00:14.230 moment's notice, start a podcast, invite potential referral partners to be guests on 4 00:00:14.349 --> 00:00:19.670 your show and grow your referral network faster than ever? Learn more. At 5 00:00:19.750 --> 00:00:29.940 Sweet Fish Mediacom you're listening to be tob growth, a daily podcast for B 6 00:00:30.059 --> 00:00:34.460 TOB leaders. We've interviewed names you've probably heard before, like Gary Vander truck 7 00:00:34.539 --> 00:00:38.530 and Simon Senek, but you've probably never heard from the majority of our guests. 8 00:00:39.210 --> 00:00:43.329 That's because the bulk of our interviews aren't with professional speakers and authors. 9 00:00:43.929 --> 00:00:47.929 Most of our guests are in the trenches leading sales and marketing teams. They're 10 00:00:47.929 --> 00:00:53.600 implementing strategy, they're experimenting with tactics, they're building the fastest growing betb companies 11 00:00:53.600 --> 00:00:56.920 in the world. My name is James Carberry. I'm the founder of sweet 12 00:00:56.920 --> 00:01:00.679 fish media, a podcast agency for BB brands, and I'm also one of 13 00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:03.790 the CO hosts of this show. When we're not interviewing sales and marketing leaders, 14 00:01:04.030 --> 00:01:07.670 you'll hear stories from behind the scenes of our own business, will share 15 00:01:07.709 --> 00:01:11.189 the ups and downs of our journey as we attempt to take over the world. 16 00:01:11.870 --> 00:01:22.819 Just kidding. Well, maybe let's get into the show. Welcome back 17 00:01:22.859 --> 00:01:26.340 should be to be growth. I am your host for today's episode, Nikki. 18 00:01:26.420 --> 00:01:29.780 Id You with sweet fish media guys. I've got with me to day 19 00:01:30.019 --> 00:01:33.849 Chris Walker, who is CEO over fine labs. Chris, how you doing 20 00:01:33.930 --> 00:01:36.329 to day? I'm doing great, Nikki. Thanks for having me. I'm 21 00:01:36.329 --> 00:01:40.370 excited. Man, you too. So if you, if you, if 22 00:01:40.370 --> 00:01:42.530 you pay at Fition, if you've been watching some of the conversations happening in 23 00:01:44.290 --> 00:01:49.680 on Linkedin and then in your network, then you've no doubt heard these sort 24 00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:55.319 of two different champs about brand marketing and it's value. Right, Chris has 25 00:01:55.359 --> 00:01:57.719 been talking about how this in a lot of the time you're not going to 26 00:01:57.799 --> 00:02:04.590 be able to measure and a tribute the value and r Ali of these things 27 00:02:04.670 --> 00:02:07.430 in the same traditional way, which doesn't mean that they're not worth it, 28 00:02:07.629 --> 00:02:10.789 right if facts quite the opposite. But I won't speak for Chris. I'll 29 00:02:10.789 --> 00:02:15.349 let you dig into that force. But before we do, I love it 30 00:02:15.389 --> 00:02:17.180 because if you would just give us all a little bit of background on yourself 31 00:02:17.219 --> 00:02:20.580 and what you and the folks that refine labs been up to these days. 32 00:02:20.580 --> 00:02:24.419 Yeah, absolutely, Nikki. So I started refine labs about six months ago 33 00:02:25.180 --> 00:02:31.729 after working in a variety of different beab companies that range somewhere from five hundred 34 00:02:31.770 --> 00:02:37.610 k are to about fifty million, and during that time, working in house 35 00:02:37.650 --> 00:02:43.250 for about seven years, I noticed that companies were making a lot of the 36 00:02:43.289 --> 00:02:49.960 same mistakes. Typically what revolves around the go to market strategy and how the 37 00:02:50.560 --> 00:02:54.439 Internet and how buyers are changing about how they discover, research and buy products, 38 00:02:54.800 --> 00:02:59.030 and so over the last three years of my career I worked on different 39 00:02:59.030 --> 00:03:02.830 ways to solve that issue for them, which were which involved less reliance on 40 00:03:02.909 --> 00:03:09.750 outbound and more a greater mix in brand marketing and other marketing channels to drive 41 00:03:09.909 --> 00:03:15.900 in down lead flow, to to kind of stabilize their pipeline and give them 42 00:03:15.939 --> 00:03:20.860 the platform to grow more efficiently. And now with for six months we're we've 43 00:03:20.860 --> 00:03:24.180 been working on building out this this model for a variety of be to be 44 00:03:24.300 --> 00:03:30.610 companies and it's it's an interesting positioning, I think, which is that we 45 00:03:30.810 --> 00:03:36.250 operate kind of like half a consulting firm, where we provide the strategy, 46 00:03:36.409 --> 00:03:40.919 ongoing guidance, advisory and long term vision and then half execution, and so 47 00:03:42.639 --> 00:03:46.240 I think it's it's an interesting it's an interesting model as we continue to explore 48 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:50.120 it and work with different companies and find that works best. And so, 49 00:03:50.360 --> 00:03:53.639 yeah, that's what we're that's what we're up to. Things are great and 50 00:03:53.080 --> 00:03:55.949 looking forward to that in this topic with you. Yeah, yeah, what 51 00:03:57.069 --> 00:04:00.949 a cool little idea like this hybrid, like you said, of you know, 52 00:04:00.150 --> 00:04:05.069 expertise and execution, right, and there's there's certainly the lane is open 53 00:04:05.150 --> 00:04:08.789 for that, because a lot of folks, most folks that I'm familiar worth, 54 00:04:08.830 --> 00:04:14.860 are doing one or the other. So good on you and what that 55 00:04:15.340 --> 00:04:18.220 experience, no doubt, that you've had with your clients and with prospects and 56 00:04:18.300 --> 00:04:23.860 just in this journey of building this you've encountered these two camps that you and 57 00:04:23.939 --> 00:04:28.810 I talked about offline when it comes to know how you market your organization, 58 00:04:28.930 --> 00:04:32.930 and that's performance marketing and brand marketing. And I like the way that you 59 00:04:33.089 --> 00:04:38.410 frame this up. It's less about difference in, you know, how folks 60 00:04:38.449 --> 00:04:44.040 are applying tactics, and more about a difference in mindset and how folks understand 61 00:04:44.560 --> 00:04:49.639 the function of these two very, very distinct ways of marketing. So dig 62 00:04:49.759 --> 00:04:55.230 into that force. Yeah, I mean the core difference die see is the 63 00:04:55.389 --> 00:05:01.269 mindset and then how it's being measured. And so if we look at at 64 00:05:01.350 --> 00:05:05.589 how people would approach marketing, a lot of people approach it from we need 65 00:05:05.670 --> 00:05:10.540 to do whatever we need to do to get those mpls to pass the sales 66 00:05:11.339 --> 00:05:15.420 and when you think like that, your actions follow suit. When you have 67 00:05:15.620 --> 00:05:20.769 that goal in mind, it's short term focused, it's selfish. Typically the 68 00:05:20.930 --> 00:05:25.290 content people can feel that you're trying to sell them something inside of it, 69 00:05:26.050 --> 00:05:29.410 and I don't think that creates a good one, a good experience for the 70 00:05:29.490 --> 00:05:31.730 buyer, and also I don't think that it creates great results for the company. 71 00:05:32.209 --> 00:05:35.680 And so if you look on the other camp that we would call it, 72 00:05:35.879 --> 00:05:41.160 in brand marketing, we're trying to do the exact same thing. We're 73 00:05:41.199 --> 00:05:46.800 trying to drive brand awareness which leads to pipeline creation and revenue growth at an 74 00:05:46.839 --> 00:05:50.069 acceller rated rate. We're just doing it in a very different way and we're 75 00:05:50.430 --> 00:05:57.550 because our mindset is not in order to get the MQL. What we do 76 00:05:57.790 --> 00:06:01.269 is we actually create content that resonates with the audience and helps them, which 77 00:06:01.389 --> 00:06:06.100 then creates trust in credibility and brand affinity and leads to better results. And 78 00:06:06.180 --> 00:06:11.300 so I think there's a place for both performance marketing and brand marketing and I 79 00:06:11.459 --> 00:06:17.300 think that people sometimes confuse or mix the two in which and I don't think 80 00:06:17.339 --> 00:06:21.449 it hits when you do that. For sure. What question is folks are 81 00:06:21.490 --> 00:06:25.329 starting to see, or have been seeing for the past few years, that 82 00:06:25.569 --> 00:06:31.290 this you chasing leaves and doing these performance marketing efforts, while it may lead 83 00:06:31.370 --> 00:06:36.879 the more leads, isn't necessarily means more close deals or even more opportunities. 84 00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:42.360 Why is there still such a loyalty to that? As far as what you've 85 00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:46.079 see, I mean to be direct. I think that a lot of companies 86 00:06:46.350 --> 00:06:51.269 are sales driven companies that have a lot of sales people and a lot of 87 00:06:51.389 --> 00:06:58.709 mouths to feed and would rather have a hundred, quote unquote, leads to 88 00:06:58.790 --> 00:07:01.420 follow up with. That gets you the activity metrics that you're looking for, 89 00:07:02.420 --> 00:07:05.860 even though a lot of them are going to close to revenue. I think 90 00:07:05.860 --> 00:07:11.339 that there's really a mindset shift that has to be made, and another side 91 00:07:11.500 --> 00:07:16.370 of it is that I don't think that a lot of Bab companies know how 92 00:07:16.449 --> 00:07:20.649 to do brand marketing in order to get the results that I'm talking about. 93 00:07:21.410 --> 00:07:29.170 And so if you can't do brand marketing well and therefore justify the activity, 94 00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:34.040 then you're going to get pushed to do sales driven performance marketing either way. 95 00:07:34.279 --> 00:07:41.360 And so I think it's it's half about about kind of WHO's calling the shots 96 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:45.389 inside of the company, but the other half is that you got to be 97 00:07:45.470 --> 00:07:48.829 able to do this well in order to move to this, the brand marketing 98 00:07:49.269 --> 00:07:54.589 focused model. I'm really interested in my I'm going to get to what doing 99 00:07:54.670 --> 00:07:58.550 it well looks like, but I want to talk about something that you said. 100 00:07:58.579 --> 00:08:03.180 This really interesting to me. When people talk about vanity metrics, more 101 00:08:03.339 --> 00:08:07.500 often than not they're talking about it in terms of marketing. I don't think 102 00:08:07.540 --> 00:08:11.779 there's been enough folks who have been exposed, frankly, in terms of these 103 00:08:11.819 --> 00:08:16.490 vanity metrics, that sales is absolutely manipulating a lot of the time. Right. 104 00:08:16.810 --> 00:08:20.370 And the number one, like you talked about vanity metric and sales is 105 00:08:20.529 --> 00:08:24.209 activity. It can make it really look like I've got I've got this, 106 00:08:24.410 --> 00:08:28.519 you know, this team full of sales people and they are dialing all day 107 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:31.080 long and they are you know, they are sitting out all these emails and 108 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:35.759 they're there and they're trying to engage folks. And yet okay, so they're 109 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:39.120 so, they're so, they're hard at work, but what does that amount 110 00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:41.710 to at the end of the day? Right in and we can sit here 111 00:08:41.750 --> 00:08:45.509 and with the finger and say, well, you know, it's because marketing 112 00:08:45.549 --> 00:08:50.350 Diett get them good enough leads. But at the same time that's because sales 113 00:08:50.389 --> 00:08:52.950 just kept asking for volume, for quality over qualities. You know, I 114 00:08:52.990 --> 00:08:56.299 mean, so there's there's got to be, like you said, this this 115 00:08:56.419 --> 00:09:01.860 sort of shift in figuring out which is which, what the goals are for 116 00:09:01.940 --> 00:09:05.500 each of these different types of marketing, who was responsible and what we're actually 117 00:09:05.500 --> 00:09:07.740 looking to get out of them. So so talk to us about that. 118 00:09:07.940 --> 00:09:13.889 What does getting brand marketing right look like? That's a loaded question and I 119 00:09:13.929 --> 00:09:16.610 kind of want to address one of the topics that I thought that was interesting 120 00:09:16.690 --> 00:09:18.250 about about something that you said in there, and then we'll get to what 121 00:09:18.529 --> 00:09:22.570 what's good brand marketing looks like it how to get started on it. In 122 00:09:22.769 --> 00:09:28.480 relation to the sales activity metrics, I talk about this as something that I 123 00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:33.399 think is broken in companies because I've seen it at a lot of companies and 124 00:09:33.559 --> 00:09:39.029 I have figured out how to fix it, and so I'll give you an 125 00:09:39.070 --> 00:09:43.750 example. Work at a company. They have eight STRs, they have fifty 126 00:09:43.830 --> 00:09:50.429 field base sales reps. the SDRs are making calls into the companies, the 127 00:09:50.350 --> 00:09:56.980 they're setting appointments. Then the sales rep takes the appointment and the REP owns 128 00:09:56.980 --> 00:10:00.059 all of Kansas, so he takes wherever he is in Kansas, drive six 129 00:10:00.100 --> 00:10:03.379 hours the appointment. The SDR set probably stays overnight at a hotel, does 130 00:10:03.460 --> 00:10:07.370 the pre presentation next day to somebody that had almost knowing drift in buying. 131 00:10:07.970 --> 00:10:15.529 Those deals close at somewhere between two and four percent and I don't want that 132 00:10:15.730 --> 00:10:18.529 to be happening at scale across the fifty reps and just looking at it logically 133 00:10:18.649 --> 00:10:24.000 for what's best for the business and so like. We especially in a field 134 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:28.600 base model, but it certainly applies to an inside sales model. To I 135 00:10:28.679 --> 00:10:35.039 would rather be able to be doing five demos and winning three of them then 136 00:10:35.159 --> 00:10:37.549 have to do three hundred demos and whin three of them, and that's just 137 00:10:37.669 --> 00:10:43.789 lage. That's just basic logic. But for some reason volume is what we're 138 00:10:43.789 --> 00:10:46.950 going for because I don't think that we understand that at scale. We understand 139 00:10:46.990 --> 00:10:52.220 how to make that more efficient. Everything on the efficiency side is a little 140 00:10:52.419 --> 00:10:56.019 little bits of sales process optimization that are going to get you little bits of 141 00:10:56.179 --> 00:11:01.059 percentage points better, little like incremental and I'm looking for things that completely change 142 00:11:01.139 --> 00:11:05.570 a business model. And so what happens is that when you need to do 143 00:11:05.850 --> 00:11:11.769 fifty demos in order to win one sale, you end up having a very, 144 00:11:11.850 --> 00:11:16.049 very overweight sales force in order to hit your goals because you have an 145 00:11:16.090 --> 00:11:22.720 inefficient model, which therefore takes away from your investment in market into do some 146 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:26.600 of the brand stuff that we're talking about. It strains the organization from being 147 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:30.759 able to invest in product. It strains the organization from being able to invest 148 00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:35.309 in success. When you can invest in success that then you don't have the 149 00:11:35.750 --> 00:11:39.950 base of evangelists that are going to be driving the word of mouth, which 150 00:11:41.029 --> 00:11:45.470 then completely changes your your overall growth model. When you have a ton of 151 00:11:45.549 --> 00:11:50.860 happy customers, when you can't invest in product, you start slowing down and 152 00:11:50.980 --> 00:11:54.259 you start losing competitive advantage amongst the competition. And when you can't do the 153 00:11:54.340 --> 00:12:01.570 brand marketing, you just get stuck in this in this really tactical sales engine 154 00:12:01.610 --> 00:12:03.490 and I think there's just a better way. I just think there's a better 155 00:12:03.529 --> 00:12:11.409 way to do it. Imagine it, a spreadsheet filled with rows and rows 156 00:12:11.529 --> 00:12:16.600 of your sales enablement assets. You've devoted two years organizing this masterpiece, only 157 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:20.000 for it to stop making sense. This was Chad forbuccos reality. As the 158 00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:24.679 head of sales enablement at glint, a linkedin company, he's responsible for instilling 159 00:12:24.759 --> 00:12:28.799 confidence in his sales reps and arming them with the information they need to do 160 00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:33.029 their jobs. However, when his glory is spreadsheet became too complex, he 161 00:12:33.230 --> 00:12:37.590 realized he needed a new system. That's when Chad turned to guru. With 162 00:12:37.750 --> 00:12:43.070 Guru, the knowledge you need to do your job finds you. Between Guru's 163 00:12:43.110 --> 00:12:48.340 Web interface, slack integration, mobile APP and browser extension, teams can easily 164 00:12:48.379 --> 00:12:52.899 search for verified knowledge without leaving their workflow. No more siload or staled information. 165 00:12:54.419 --> 00:12:56.899 Guru acts as your single source of truth. For Chad, this meant 166 00:12:56.940 --> 00:13:03.169 glent sales reps were left feeling more confident doing their jobs. See why leading 167 00:13:03.250 --> 00:13:07.809 companies like glint, shopify, spotify, slack and more are using guru for 168 00:13:07.850 --> 00:13:15.720 their knowledge management needs. Visit BB growth dot get gurucom to start your thirty 169 00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:22.759 day free trial and discover how knowledge management can empower your revenue teams. I 170 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:26.000 agree. I agree. I think it's what what's funny is I've seen a 171 00:13:26.429 --> 00:13:31.750 lot of individual contributors as salespeople, you know, not knowing how to articulate 172 00:13:31.870 --> 00:13:37.710 what you just said, but really begging for it right. Really really thought 173 00:13:37.789 --> 00:13:41.820 we wanted a higher volume of leaves. What we really wanted was to be 174 00:13:41.940 --> 00:13:48.779 talking to folks who were more aware and qualified, qualified in the first ready. 175 00:13:48.019 --> 00:13:52.340 We wanted to ready right, like it's completely changes the dynamic of a 176 00:13:52.379 --> 00:13:54.700 conversation, whether you're talking to someone that has no interest in talking to you 177 00:13:56.090 --> 00:13:58.730 and is looking to learn a little bit more versus a person that's seventy percent 178 00:13:58.730 --> 00:14:03.169 of their buying process either is coming in so that you can help them to 179 00:14:03.210 --> 00:14:05.370 figure out how to get that in their company and how to have them be 180 00:14:05.570 --> 00:14:09.879 how to be successful during that buying an onboarding process, versus needing to convince 181 00:14:09.960 --> 00:14:13.679 someone that your solution is the right one for them, and it just could. 182 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:18.759 From a sales perspective. Like life, life is a way easier when 183 00:14:18.759 --> 00:14:22.799 you're talking to people that are already convinced that your product, or the category 184 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:26.269 of the product that you're selling is already a solution that they're ready to solve. 185 00:14:26.870 --> 00:14:31.950 And and you don't usually, you don't usually get there from a cold 186 00:14:31.990 --> 00:14:37.870 calling perspective because you have created their buying process artificially versus them figuring it out 187 00:14:37.870 --> 00:14:41.940 from themselves. Yes, it happens, but nowhere near that the level that 188 00:14:43.539 --> 00:14:46.779 that can happen from a different model. What I love is that so much 189 00:14:46.820 --> 00:14:50.419 of your experience is as a marketer. I mean you Coche, you founded 190 00:14:50.539 --> 00:14:54.370 and your CEO is your official title at at, you know, at refine 191 00:14:54.370 --> 00:14:58.529 labs right now. But just talking to you, marketing is, you know, 192 00:14:58.649 --> 00:15:01.210 in your DNA, it sounds like, and a lot of the things 193 00:15:01.250 --> 00:15:05.769 you're saying are maybe things that you know an step of sales or even in 194 00:15:05.970 --> 00:15:09.559 individual contributor sales person might not feel like they were allowed to say right because 195 00:15:09.559 --> 00:15:15.399 if you say out loud as a salesperson anything other than I'm not, you 196 00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:20.279 know, closing deals because I'm doing something wrong, I'm not closing deals because 197 00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:22.950 I didn't follow the process. I'm not closing deals because it's all my fault 198 00:15:22.950 --> 00:15:24.549 and there's nothing else that can be done in the process around me, then 199 00:15:24.710 --> 00:15:28.669 you can be you know, people will treat you me that like you weak, 200 00:15:28.710 --> 00:15:30.629 like you can't really handle it. Really, all you're saying is, 201 00:15:30.710 --> 00:15:33.429 I would like to work smarter, please. Thank you very much. And 202 00:15:33.629 --> 00:15:37.700 so I love this, this inflection point that we're at right now where marketers 203 00:15:37.740 --> 00:15:43.019 are infiltrating, sales introverts are infiltrating in these sales roles and things like that. 204 00:15:43.139 --> 00:15:50.009 Yeah, companies are a lot of companies out there are failing their sales 205 00:15:50.090 --> 00:15:54.210 reps, setting them up to fail based on the go to market model that 206 00:15:54.289 --> 00:15:56.529 they've created, for sure, and I think if we just let it, 207 00:15:56.649 --> 00:16:02.049 let a little bit to sit there, like the way companies go to market, 208 00:16:03.009 --> 00:16:06.600 like in a sales force nineteen ninety nine model that worked, that is 209 00:16:06.840 --> 00:16:11.240 far less efficient, is far more expensive, doesn't get you where you need 210 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:15.320 to be because people don't buy things like they bought sales coorce in nineteen ninety 211 00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:18.039 nine and salesports got there, and a lot of people follow the model and 212 00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:22.470 most of the executive executives running companies aspire to make the next sales force. 213 00:16:22.590 --> 00:16:26.870 So they do it the same way, but things are different and I think 214 00:16:26.909 --> 00:16:30.870 that if we, let if we think about that statement I just made and 215 00:16:30.990 --> 00:16:37.299 let it sink in for a minute and you logically assess the your own business 216 00:16:37.460 --> 00:16:41.580 and where where you're investing in the activities that you're doing, and you take 217 00:16:41.620 --> 00:16:45.179 a hard look at it, I think that you might find some things that 218 00:16:45.220 --> 00:16:49.769 you do differently, for sure. So so now is the time for you. 219 00:16:49.970 --> 00:16:53.409 Let us know. That's right. The no man. What is this? 220 00:16:53.529 --> 00:16:56.850 What I came here for? What does it look like? What is 221 00:16:56.889 --> 00:17:02.879 well executed brand marketing look like? And since the traditional measures of, you 222 00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:07.759 know, justifying these efforts don't work here, what do you what do we 223 00:17:07.880 --> 00:17:11.720 hold up in its place? Yeah, I mean. To start, I 224 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:17.069 think that the traditional forms of Brent like when people think about brand marketing, 225 00:17:17.630 --> 00:17:21.150 they don't have the same definition that I have, and so the things like 226 00:17:21.869 --> 00:17:26.829 putting a big sign above your thirty trade show booth is not brand marketing. 227 00:17:26.789 --> 00:17:30.500 It wasn't. It wasn't nineteen, it was in one thousand nine hundred and 228 00:17:30.500 --> 00:17:34.900 eighty, but it's not anymore. Putting your logo on a display at that 229 00:17:36.019 --> 00:17:40.980 nobody clicks and study show that they barely even see them. I don't think 230 00:17:41.140 --> 00:17:45.609 makes the impact yes, you're going to get the aided awareness recall of your 231 00:17:45.690 --> 00:17:49.490 brand, and some scientists, data scientists, can measure it and claim that 232 00:17:49.569 --> 00:17:53.809 you may move the needle. But what I'm looking for when I talk about 233 00:17:53.809 --> 00:17:59.839 brand marketing is how do we communicate with someone, understand them so well that 234 00:17:59.960 --> 00:18:04.960 the information that we provided them was valuable, created credibility and created an affinity 235 00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:10.039 to our brand, which then later leads to something that we want to have 236 00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:14.069 happened, and you can do that in a variety of ways. The things 237 00:18:14.190 --> 00:18:21.750 that I think work best today are long form video and audio distributed in the 238 00:18:21.789 --> 00:18:25.109 right way right. So a lot of people make videos and then post them 239 00:18:25.150 --> 00:18:27.420 on youtube and don't search optimize them and they get six views and they send 240 00:18:27.420 --> 00:18:30.940 them in an email that nobody clicks on and that video, whatever it costs 241 00:18:32.019 --> 00:18:33.859 them to do, was a waste of money, because people spend too much 242 00:18:33.859 --> 00:18:40.940 time creating content and not enough time figuring out how to distribute it. And 243 00:18:41.059 --> 00:18:45.369 then the last peep, the last piece, is that it's actually step one. 244 00:18:45.730 --> 00:18:51.009 So let's back up step one. Know the audience deeply that you're trying 245 00:18:51.049 --> 00:18:55.089 to talk to. Most people don't do this. It's easy, it's easy 246 00:18:55.170 --> 00:18:59.119 for me right now because I have been in companies for seven years. I 247 00:18:59.400 --> 00:19:03.519 understand and what those people are going through and so I have a very it's 248 00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:10.269 easy for me to communicate to that audience because I am appeer. But if 249 00:19:10.309 --> 00:19:17.910 you're a company and you're a marketer and you're selling a product to engineers at 250 00:19:18.230 --> 00:19:22.190 Tesla and other companies like that and you don't take the time to go and 251 00:19:22.309 --> 00:19:27.740 understand what they need, where they spend their time, how they consume information, 252 00:19:29.460 --> 00:19:33.500 what they care about outside of your value proposition, then your contents never 253 00:19:33.579 --> 00:19:37.019 going to hit. And so I think a lot of companies miss that step. 254 00:19:37.779 --> 00:19:42.009 They think that they do it because they get they listen to sales call 255 00:19:42.130 --> 00:19:48.769 recordings and get second party information, feedback from the sales team. The sales 256 00:19:48.849 --> 00:19:52.640 team is measured on short term metrics, nothing long term. So they see 257 00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:59.079 that, they see the the response from the customer interpreted in a different way 258 00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:03.880 than a smart, Strett strategic marketer would. And so the only way for 259 00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:07.670 a marketer to have that type of insights, to know how to communicate with 260 00:20:07.710 --> 00:20:11.230 these people and create the things that they want is to go out on their 261 00:20:11.230 --> 00:20:18.549 own to ten prospects and ten customer Earth and talk to them and understand what 262 00:20:18.630 --> 00:20:25.539 they care about and recognize that the product that I'm trying to sell them is 263 00:20:26.220 --> 00:20:30.380 one percent of what they actually do and all of the value is in understanding 264 00:20:30.420 --> 00:20:33.859 what the other ninety nine percent is, because that's how you do good content 265 00:20:33.940 --> 00:20:38.769 marketing. Straight up. It takes all of the all of the things that 266 00:20:40.490 --> 00:20:45.690 we that happen in cold outreach or even in outreach that has, you know, 267 00:20:45.849 --> 00:20:49.680 this based on some intent data. All of the things that turn people 268 00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:55.559 off about that kind of outreach sort of fall away if folks do what you're 269 00:20:55.599 --> 00:20:59.240 talking about. I talked a lot about especially when I've worked for a couple 270 00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:04.190 of organizations where, you know, they were trying to trying to penetrate these 271 00:21:04.789 --> 00:21:08.509 soor legacy markets. Right, folks that have been using the same software that 272 00:21:08.630 --> 00:21:12.190 beyond since the S, folks who are convinced that their business runs on, 273 00:21:12.670 --> 00:21:15.509 you know, handshakes and word of mouth. And weren't necessarily wrong, but 274 00:21:15.630 --> 00:21:18.900 just we're wrong about where those conversations were taking place. Anyway, you have 275 00:21:19.059 --> 00:21:25.460 your right. You have to become a part of that industry. Straight up. 276 00:21:25.460 --> 00:21:29.220 You cannot be a vendor into that industry or else. That's all you 277 00:21:29.299 --> 00:21:34.130 will ever need and you'll constantly be running into conversations about price and conversations about 278 00:21:34.210 --> 00:21:38.730 loyalty they have to this other vendor who maybe serving them well still, but 279 00:21:38.849 --> 00:21:44.170 they just know better. So there's no ore, there's no easy way around 280 00:21:44.250 --> 00:21:45.849 it. You just have to like, really really give it f you know 281 00:21:45.890 --> 00:21:51.039 what I know, and get in there and part of what I've what I've 282 00:21:51.039 --> 00:21:52.599 been a part of what I've been doing is, you know, trying to 283 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:57.599 listen to podcast that folks who I want to do business with listen to, 284 00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:03.230 read what they're reading and then get into conversations ask them questions, like you 285 00:22:03.390 --> 00:22:07.109 said, about what are what are you talking about to your network right? 286 00:22:07.269 --> 00:22:10.710 What are what are the things that are on the minds of the people who 287 00:22:10.710 --> 00:22:15.539 do what you do beyond what my solution can address? And that's it totally 288 00:22:15.579 --> 00:22:19.779 at it's like being a whole, a whole human right, is like being 289 00:22:19.859 --> 00:22:23.900 a whole present person. But we operate in such a time, especially on 290 00:22:25.299 --> 00:22:30.329 platforms like linked in, where you know, there's there's such a volume of 291 00:22:30.450 --> 00:22:34.529 hot takes and then there's such a pressure those hot takes do well, right, 292 00:22:34.609 --> 00:22:37.970 they those hot takes do good numbers. Right, they're getting a lot 293 00:22:37.049 --> 00:22:41.890 of engagement, and so then there's comments, right, yeah, right. 294 00:22:42.130 --> 00:22:45.400 So then there's this pressure, if you do want to become a part of 295 00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:48.599 the community, to do the easy thing and just, you know, talk 296 00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:52.480 at folks and give them hot takes, versus asking more questions and seeing what's 297 00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:56.799 really up. Yeah, like the way you you laid this out. I'm 298 00:22:56.839 --> 00:23:00.910 not surprised. I knew when I asked you on the show that there's some 299 00:23:00.230 --> 00:23:03.309 value here. I want want to give you a chance, before I move 300 00:23:03.349 --> 00:23:06.829 on to the next segment, to let the folks know any any other little 301 00:23:06.869 --> 00:23:08.990 things that you think are important when it comes to under Stan in the distinction 302 00:23:10.069 --> 00:23:14.779 between performance marketing and brand marketing, when it comes to to be to be. 303 00:23:15.700 --> 00:23:19.140 Yeah, I mean, the thing that I've been thinking a lot about, 304 00:23:19.140 --> 00:23:22.619 and I'm trying to figure out how to articulate this, is that all 305 00:23:22.700 --> 00:23:29.730 of the things that I do that work for me, people try and think 306 00:23:29.769 --> 00:23:33.490 about what the Roi of what is. What's the Roi of me spending two 307 00:23:33.490 --> 00:23:37.450 hours a day answering comments on Linkedin for people asking me questions and sending me 308 00:23:37.490 --> 00:23:44.759 messages, and most people would think you're running rapidly going growing company. Why 309 00:23:44.839 --> 00:23:48.559 would you be spending two hours answering questions for people that are never going to 310 00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:53.839 buy from you? And I think people really need to think about it. 311 00:23:53.960 --> 00:23:57.309 I think about this long term. I started this business six months ago. 312 00:23:57.789 --> 00:24:00.869 I've Wan on having it for a while. I'm not I'm not it's not 313 00:24:00.950 --> 00:24:04.190 venture funded. I'm not trying to sell it. I don't have a investorous 314 00:24:04.230 --> 00:24:08.390 answer to I don't care if we get to the revenue target that we set 315 00:24:08.549 --> 00:24:12.819 next week, next month, because I am playing for the long term. 316 00:24:14.299 --> 00:24:18.779 And so answering those comments and messages do a couple things. Y One, 317 00:24:18.460 --> 00:24:23.930 it builds brand when I help someone and impact them, then they go and 318 00:24:25.089 --> 00:24:30.130 tell someone else and I see people come in inbound connection request. Hey, 319 00:24:30.890 --> 00:24:33.690 Susie told me about you. She answered that question. Would love to connect 320 00:24:33.690 --> 00:24:37.730 with you. And when that's starts happening a hundred times a day, you 321 00:24:37.890 --> 00:24:41.480 start to know what you're doing is working, and so that's one thing. 322 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:45.200 The second piece is that it's real time market research. I test messaging, 323 00:24:47.079 --> 00:24:53.150 I test handling objections, I test understanding how I position our offering, all 324 00:24:53.349 --> 00:25:00.869 inside of little conversations and dialogs, inside of Linkedin, I know whether or 325 00:25:00.910 --> 00:25:03.390 not what I said resonated for someone or if I need to change it. 326 00:25:04.109 --> 00:25:10.460 Those are all things that help me. That helped us go from not exactly 327 00:25:10.619 --> 00:25:17.059 knowing what our offering was six months ago to rapidly getting more clear on exactly 328 00:25:17.140 --> 00:25:21.180 where to focus and where we had value for companies, which could have taken 329 00:25:21.220 --> 00:25:23.329 a lot more time and a lot more money had I done in a more 330 00:25:23.450 --> 00:25:27.650 traditional way. And so I don't know how else to say this, but 331 00:25:29.009 --> 00:25:34.089 the things that I recommend to every company I do myself. Got It like 332 00:25:34.329 --> 00:25:41.240 we run the exact same marketing model at inside of our company that we recommend 333 00:25:41.240 --> 00:25:45.720 to everybody else with the intention of when somebody comes in bound to us on 334 00:25:45.880 --> 00:25:52.109 Linkedin and becomes a six figure client in five days, they just experienced exactly 335 00:25:52.230 --> 00:25:56.630 what their customers should experience in their sales process. When we do it right, 336 00:25:56.069 --> 00:26:00.029 absolutely you're actually you're preaching to the choir. We do that here as 337 00:26:00.069 --> 00:26:03.069 well as sweet fish media, and there's no really know, there's no as 338 00:26:03.109 --> 00:26:07.299 I forget the exact way that don draper phrased it, but you know, 339 00:26:07.380 --> 00:26:11.500 it basically is the LA. I can't, I can't teach you Jesus right, 340 00:26:11.579 --> 00:26:14.900 like I can't. I can't make you a believer if you're not. 341 00:26:15.220 --> 00:26:18.730 You know, if you don't come to the conversation already with a capacity to 342 00:26:18.930 --> 00:26:22.730 think differently, then nothing I could do for you, man, you just 343 00:26:22.809 --> 00:26:26.170 might miss the boat. And so I like the sort of proof is in 344 00:26:26.210 --> 00:26:30.130 the pudding way that you're talking and think about what you're doing here. So 345 00:26:30.329 --> 00:26:33.319 now, Chris, that that I've successfully picked your brain and see what I 346 00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:36.599 could get out of it, it's time for you to tell us about what 347 00:26:36.680 --> 00:26:40.480 you're putting in it. So talk to the people about a learning resource that 348 00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:44.000 you are engaging with that is you informing your approach. This just got you 349 00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:49.230 excited these days. Yeah, so a couple of my influences that I think 350 00:26:49.230 --> 00:26:56.390 are are interesting. Is One I watch a lot of B Toc brands that 351 00:26:56.549 --> 00:27:03.779 work for me and understand what they're doing from a marketing, positioning content perspective. 352 00:27:03.819 --> 00:27:07.980 I reverse engineer why it works on me and then I apply it to 353 00:27:08.099 --> 00:27:15.180 what I want to do. Super Interesting. It's really really worked for me, 354 00:27:15.299 --> 00:27:18.089 and I'll give you an example. So I'm maybe like three or four 355 00:27:18.089 --> 00:27:22.930 years ago. I'm going through instagram stories. At that point instagram stories were 356 00:27:22.930 --> 00:27:27.089 actually pretty new. I go through three a whatever they were trying to sell 357 00:27:27.170 --> 00:27:32.400 me hits me with up fifty team. Second Video. That was super compelling, 358 00:27:33.319 --> 00:27:36.960 and then I take I take a mental note of that, understand where 359 00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:40.559 they were trying to drive me, to understand what was positioned to the creative 360 00:27:40.599 --> 00:27:44.309 and why I caught my attention in Santas, and then I repurpose that and 361 00:27:44.509 --> 00:27:48.150 use it to market medical devices, solid advice. And so I know, 362 00:27:48.269 --> 00:27:52.390 Chris, that everybody listening, just like me, has become fast fan of 363 00:27:52.430 --> 00:27:55.269 yours and they're going to want to know how to keep up with you. 364 00:27:55.390 --> 00:28:00.059 So tell the people how we can connect with you. So with think linkedin's 365 00:28:00.099 --> 00:28:03.420 the best. Chris Walker, very popular name, but the headline would be 366 00:28:03.539 --> 00:28:07.619 CEO refund labs. So I hope you can. Hope you could find me, 367 00:28:07.660 --> 00:28:10.700 but that's that's the place where I spend most by time right now. 368 00:28:11.180 --> 00:28:12.930 Perfect. He's out there, is content is fire. Check them out. 369 00:28:14.089 --> 00:28:18.089 Thank you again so much, Chris, for coming on the show and helping 370 00:28:18.089 --> 00:28:22.930 us do you mystify of the distinction between mom with working and brand market and 371 00:28:22.970 --> 00:28:30.599 thanks so much, man. Thanks making we totally get it. We publish 372 00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:33.960 a ton of content on this podcast, and it can be a lot to 373 00:28:33.079 --> 00:28:37.319 keep up with. That's why we've started the BOB growth big three, a 374 00:28:37.480 --> 00:28:42.029 no fluff email that boils down our three biggest takeaways from an entire week of 375 00:28:42.150 --> 00:28:48.069 episodes. Sign up today at Sweet Fish Mediacom big three. That sweet fish 376 00:28:48.150 --> 00:28:51.789 Mediacom Big Three