Transcript
WEBVTT
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A relationship with the right referral partner
could be a game changer for any be
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to be company. So what if
you could reverse engineer these relationships at a
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moment's notice, start a podcast,
invite potential referral partners to be guests on
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your show and grow your referral network
faster than ever? Learn more. At
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Sweet Fish Mediacom you're listening to be
tob growth, a daily podcast for B
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TOB leaders. We've interviewed names you've
probably heard before, like Gary Vander truck
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and Simon Senek, but you've probably
never heard from the majority of our guests.
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That's because the bulk of our interviews
aren't with professional speakers and authors.
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Most of our guests are in the
trenches leading sales and marketing teams. They're
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implementing strategy, they're experimenting with tactics, they're building the fastest growing betb companies
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in the world. My name is
James Carberry. I'm the founder of sweet
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fish media, a podcast agency for
BB brands, and I'm also one of
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the CO hosts of this show.
When we're not interviewing sales and marketing leaders,
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you'll hear stories from behind the scenes
of our own business, will share
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the ups and downs of our journey
as we attempt to take over the world.
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Just kidding. Well, maybe let's
get into the show. Welcome back
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should be to be growth. I
am your host for today's episode, Nikki.
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Id You with sweet fish media guys. I've got with me to day
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Chris Walker, who is CEO over
fine labs. Chris, how you doing
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to day? I'm doing great,
Nikki. Thanks for having me. I'm
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excited. Man, you too.
So if you, if you, if
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you pay at Fition, if you've
been watching some of the conversations happening in
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on Linkedin and then in your network, then you've no doubt heard these sort
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of two different champs about brand marketing
and it's value. Right, Chris has
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been talking about how this in a
lot of the time you're not going to
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be able to measure and a tribute
the value and r Ali of these things
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in the same traditional way, which
doesn't mean that they're not worth it,
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right if facts quite the opposite.
But I won't speak for Chris. I'll
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let you dig into that force.
But before we do, I love it
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because if you would just give us
all a little bit of background on yourself
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and what you and the folks that
refine labs been up to these days.
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Yeah, absolutely, Nikki. So
I started refine labs about six months ago
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after working in a variety of different
beab companies that range somewhere from five hundred
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k are to about fifty million,
and during that time, working in house
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for about seven years, I noticed
that companies were making a lot of the
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same mistakes. Typically what revolves around
the go to market strategy and how the
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Internet and how buyers are changing about
how they discover, research and buy products,
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and so over the last three years
of my career I worked on different
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ways to solve that issue for them, which were which involved less reliance on
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outbound and more a greater mix in
brand marketing and other marketing channels to drive
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in down lead flow, to to
kind of stabilize their pipeline and give them
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the platform to grow more efficiently.
And now with for six months we're we've
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been working on building out this this
model for a variety of be to be
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companies and it's it's an interesting positioning, I think, which is that we
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operate kind of like half a consulting
firm, where we provide the strategy,
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ongoing guidance, advisory and long term
vision and then half execution, and so
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I think it's it's an interesting it's
an interesting model as we continue to explore
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it and work with different companies and
find that works best. And so,
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yeah, that's what we're that's what
we're up to. Things are great and
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looking forward to that in this topic
with you. Yeah, yeah, what
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a cool little idea like this hybrid, like you said, of you know,
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expertise and execution, right, and
there's there's certainly the lane is open
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for that, because a lot of
folks, most folks that I'm familiar worth,
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are doing one or the other.
So good on you and what that
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experience, no doubt, that you've
had with your clients and with prospects and
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just in this journey of building this
you've encountered these two camps that you and
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I talked about offline when it comes
to know how you market your organization,
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and that's performance marketing and brand marketing. And I like the way that you
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frame this up. It's less about
difference in, you know, how folks
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are applying tactics, and more about
a difference in mindset and how folks understand
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the function of these two very,
very distinct ways of marketing. So dig
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into that force. Yeah, I
mean the core difference die see is the
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mindset and then how it's being measured. And so if we look at at
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how people would approach marketing, a
lot of people approach it from we need
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to do whatever we need to do
to get those mpls to pass the sales
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and when you think like that,
your actions follow suit. When you have
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that goal in mind, it's short
term focused, it's selfish. Typically the
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content people can feel that you're trying
to sell them something inside of it,
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and I don't think that creates a
good one, a good experience for the
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buyer, and also I don't think
that it creates great results for the company.
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And so if you look on the
other camp that we would call it,
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in brand marketing, we're trying to
do the exact same thing. We're
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trying to drive brand awareness which leads
to pipeline creation and revenue growth at an
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acceller rated rate. We're just doing
it in a very different way and we're
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because our mindset is not in order
to get the MQL. What we do
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is we actually create content that resonates
with the audience and helps them, which
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then creates trust in credibility and brand
affinity and leads to better results. And
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so I think there's a place for
both performance marketing and brand marketing and I
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think that people sometimes confuse or mix
the two in which and I don't think
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it hits when you do that.
For sure. What question is folks are
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starting to see, or have been
seeing for the past few years, that
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this you chasing leaves and doing these
performance marketing efforts, while it may lead
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the more leads, isn't necessarily means
more close deals or even more opportunities.
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Why is there still such a loyalty
to that? As far as what you've
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see, I mean to be direct. I think that a lot of companies
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are sales driven companies that have a
lot of sales people and a lot of
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mouths to feed and would rather have
a hundred, quote unquote, leads to
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follow up with. That gets you
the activity metrics that you're looking for,
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even though a lot of them are
going to close to revenue. I think
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that there's really a mindset shift that
has to be made, and another side
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of it is that I don't think
that a lot of Bab companies know how
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to do brand marketing in order to
get the results that I'm talking about.
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And so if you can't do brand
marketing well and therefore justify the activity,
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then you're going to get pushed to
do sales driven performance marketing either way.
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And so I think it's it's half
about about kind of WHO's calling the shots
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inside of the company, but the
other half is that you got to be
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able to do this well in order
to move to this, the brand marketing
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focused model. I'm really interested in
my I'm going to get to what doing
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it well looks like, but I
want to talk about something that you said.
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This really interesting to me. When
people talk about vanity metrics, more
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often than not they're talking about it
in terms of marketing. I don't think
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there's been enough folks who have been
exposed, frankly, in terms of these
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vanity metrics, that sales is absolutely
manipulating a lot of the time. Right.
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And the number one, like you
talked about vanity metric and sales is
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activity. It can make it really
look like I've got I've got this,
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you know, this team full of
sales people and they are dialing all day
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long and they are you know,
they are sitting out all these emails and
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they're there and they're trying to engage
folks. And yet okay, so they're
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so, they're so, they're hard
at work, but what does that amount
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to at the end of the day? Right in and we can sit here
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and with the finger and say,
well, you know, it's because marketing
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Diett get them good enough leads.
But at the same time that's because sales
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just kept asking for volume, for
quality over qualities. You know, I
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mean, so there's there's got to
be, like you said, this this
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sort of shift in figuring out which
is which, what the goals are for
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each of these different types of marketing, who was responsible and what we're actually
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looking to get out of them.
So so talk to us about that.
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What does getting brand marketing right look
like? That's a loaded question and I
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kind of want to address one of
the topics that I thought that was interesting
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about about something that you said in
there, and then we'll get to what
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what's good brand marketing looks like it
how to get started on it. In
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relation to the sales activity metrics,
I talk about this as something that I
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think is broken in companies because I've
seen it at a lot of companies and
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I have figured out how to fix
it, and so I'll give you an
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example. Work at a company.
They have eight STRs, they have fifty
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field base sales reps. the SDRs
are making calls into the companies, the
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they're setting appointments. Then the sales
rep takes the appointment and the REP owns
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all of Kansas, so he takes
wherever he is in Kansas, drive six
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hours the appointment. The SDR set
probably stays overnight at a hotel, does
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the pre presentation next day to somebody
that had almost knowing drift in buying.
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Those deals close at somewhere between two
and four percent and I don't want that
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to be happening at scale across the
fifty reps and just looking at it logically
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for what's best for the business and
so like. We especially in a field
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base model, but it certainly applies
to an inside sales model. To I
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would rather be able to be doing
five demos and winning three of them then
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have to do three hundred demos and
whin three of them, and that's just
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lage. That's just basic logic.
But for some reason volume is what we're
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going for because I don't think that
we understand that at scale. We understand
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how to make that more efficient.
Everything on the efficiency side is a little
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little bits of sales process optimization that
are going to get you little bits of
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percentage points better, little like incremental
and I'm looking for things that completely change
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a business model. And so what
happens is that when you need to do
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fifty demos in order to win one
sale, you end up having a very,
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very overweight sales force in order to
hit your goals because you have an
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inefficient model, which therefore takes away
from your investment in market into do some
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of the brand stuff that we're talking
about. It strains the organization from being
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able to invest in product. It
strains the organization from being able to invest
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in success. When you can invest
in success that then you don't have the
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base of evangelists that are going to
be driving the word of mouth, which
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then completely changes your your overall growth
model. When you have a ton of
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happy customers, when you can't invest
in product, you start slowing down and
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you start losing competitive advantage amongst the
competition. And when you can't do the
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brand marketing, you just get stuck
in this in this really tactical sales engine
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and I think there's just a better
way. I just think there's a better
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way to do it. Imagine it, a spreadsheet filled with rows and rows
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of your sales enablement assets. You've
devoted two years organizing this masterpiece, only
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for it to stop making sense.
This was Chad forbuccos reality. As the
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head of sales enablement at glint,
a linkedin company, he's responsible for instilling
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confidence in his sales reps and arming
them with the information they need to do
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their jobs. However, when his
glory is spreadsheet became too complex, he
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realized he needed a new system.
That's when Chad turned to guru. With
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Guru, the knowledge you need to
do your job finds you. Between Guru's
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Web interface, slack integration, mobile
APP and browser extension, teams can easily
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search for verified knowledge without leaving their
workflow. No more siload or staled information.
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Guru acts as your single source of
truth. For Chad, this meant
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00:12:56.940 --> 00:13:03.169
glent sales reps were left feeling more
confident doing their jobs. See why leading
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00:13:03.250 --> 00:13:07.809
companies like glint, shopify, spotify, slack and more are using guru for
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their knowledge management needs. Visit BB
growth dot get gurucom to start your thirty
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day free trial and discover how knowledge
management can empower your revenue teams. I
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00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:26.000
agree. I agree. I think
it's what what's funny is I've seen a
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lot of individual contributors as salespeople,
you know, not knowing how to articulate
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what you just said, but really
begging for it right. Really really thought
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we wanted a higher volume of leaves. What we really wanted was to be
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talking to folks who were more aware
and qualified, qualified in the first ready.
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We wanted to ready right, like
it's completely changes the dynamic of a
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conversation, whether you're talking to someone
that has no interest in talking to you
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and is looking to learn a little
bit more versus a person that's seventy percent
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of their buying process either is coming
in so that you can help them to
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figure out how to get that in
their company and how to have them be
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how to be successful during that buying
an onboarding process, versus needing to convince
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someone that your solution is the right
one for them, and it just could.
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From a sales perspective. Like life, life is a way easier when
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you're talking to people that are already
convinced that your product, or the category
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of the product that you're selling is
already a solution that they're ready to solve.
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And and you don't usually, you
don't usually get there from a cold
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calling perspective because you have created their
buying process artificially versus them figuring it out
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from themselves. Yes, it happens, but nowhere near that the level that
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that can happen from a different model. What I love is that so much
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of your experience is as a marketer. I mean you Coche, you founded
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and your CEO is your official title
at at, you know, at refine
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labs right now. But just talking
to you, marketing is, you know,
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in your DNA, it sounds like, and a lot of the things
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you're saying are maybe things that you
know an step of sales or even in
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individual contributor sales person might not feel
like they were allowed to say right because
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if you say out loud as a
salesperson anything other than I'm not, you
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know, closing deals because I'm doing
something wrong, I'm not closing deals because
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I didn't follow the process. I'm
not closing deals because it's all my fault
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and there's nothing else that can be
done in the process around me, then
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you can be you know, people
will treat you me that like you weak,
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like you can't really handle it.
Really, all you're saying is,
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I would like to work smarter,
please. Thank you very much. And
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so I love this, this inflection
point that we're at right now where marketers
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are infiltrating, sales introverts are infiltrating
in these sales roles and things like that.
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Yeah, companies are a lot of
companies out there are failing their sales
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reps, setting them up to fail
based on the go to market model that
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they've created, for sure, and
I think if we just let it,
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let a little bit to sit there, like the way companies go to market,
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like in a sales force nineteen ninety
nine model that worked, that is
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far less efficient, is far more
expensive, doesn't get you where you need
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to be because people don't buy things
like they bought sales coorce in nineteen ninety
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nine and salesports got there, and
a lot of people follow the model and
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most of the executive executives running companies
aspire to make the next sales force.
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So they do it the same way, but things are different and I think
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that if we, let if we
think about that statement I just made and
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let it sink in for a minute
and you logically assess the your own business
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and where where you're investing in the
activities that you're doing, and you take
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a hard look at it, I
think that you might find some things that
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you do differently, for sure.
So so now is the time for you.
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Let us know. That's right.
The no man. What is this?
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What I came here for? What
does it look like? What is
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well executed brand marketing look like?
And since the traditional measures of, you
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know, justifying these efforts don't work
here, what do you what do we
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hold up in its place? Yeah, I mean. To start, I
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think that the traditional forms of Brent
like when people think about brand marketing,
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they don't have the same definition that
I have, and so the things like
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putting a big sign above your thirty
trade show booth is not brand marketing.
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It wasn't. It wasn't nineteen,
it was in one thousand nine hundred and
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eighty, but it's not anymore.
Putting your logo on a display at that
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nobody clicks and study show that they
barely even see them. I don't think
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makes the impact yes, you're going
to get the aided awareness recall of your
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brand, and some scientists, data
scientists, can measure it and claim that
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you may move the needle. But
what I'm looking for when I talk about
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brand marketing is how do we communicate
with someone, understand them so well that
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the information that we provided them was
valuable, created credibility and created an affinity
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to our brand, which then later
leads to something that we want to have
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happened, and you can do that
in a variety of ways. The things
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that I think work best today are
long form video and audio distributed in the
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right way right. So a lot
of people make videos and then post them
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on youtube and don't search optimize them
and they get six views and they send
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them in an email that nobody clicks
on and that video, whatever it costs
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them to do, was a waste
of money, because people spend too much
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time creating content and not enough time
figuring out how to distribute it. And
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then the last peep, the last
piece, is that it's actually step one.
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So let's back up step one.
Know the audience deeply that you're trying
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to talk to. Most people don't
do this. It's easy, it's easy
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for me right now because I have
been in companies for seven years. I
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understand and what those people are going
through and so I have a very it's
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easy for me to communicate to that
audience because I am appeer. But if
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you're a company and you're a marketer
and you're selling a product to engineers at
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Tesla and other companies like that and
you don't take the time to go and
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understand what they need, where they
spend their time, how they consume information,
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what they care about outside of your
value proposition, then your contents never
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going to hit. And so I
think a lot of companies miss that step.
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They think that they do it because
they get they listen to sales call
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recordings and get second party information,
feedback from the sales team. The sales
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team is measured on short term metrics, nothing long term. So they see
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that, they see the the response
from the customer interpreted in a different way
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than a smart, Strett strategic marketer
would. And so the only way for
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a marketer to have that type of
insights, to know how to communicate with
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these people and create the things that
they want is to go out on their
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own to ten prospects and ten customer
Earth and talk to them and understand what
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they care about and recognize that the
product that I'm trying to sell them is
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one percent of what they actually do
and all of the value is in understanding
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what the other ninety nine percent is, because that's how you do good content
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marketing. Straight up. It takes
all of the all of the things that
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we that happen in cold outreach or
even in outreach that has, you know,
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this based on some intent data.
All of the things that turn people
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off about that kind of outreach sort
of fall away if folks do what you're
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talking about. I talked a lot
about especially when I've worked for a couple
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of organizations where, you know,
they were trying to trying to penetrate these
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soor legacy markets. Right, folks
that have been using the same software that
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beyond since the S, folks who
are convinced that their business runs on,
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you know, handshakes and word of
mouth. And weren't necessarily wrong, but
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just we're wrong about where those conversations
were taking place. Anyway, you have
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your right. You have to become
a part of that industry. Straight up.
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You cannot be a vendor into that
industry or else. That's all you
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will ever need and you'll constantly be
running into conversations about price and conversations about
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loyalty they have to this other vendor
who maybe serving them well still, but
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they just know better. So there's
no ore, there's no easy way around
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it. You just have to like, really really give it f you know
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what I know, and get in
there and part of what I've what I've
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been a part of what I've been
doing is, you know, trying to
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listen to podcast that folks who I
want to do business with listen to,
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read what they're reading and then get
into conversations ask them questions, like you
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said, about what are what are
you talking about to your network right?
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What are what are the things that
are on the minds of the people who
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do what you do beyond what my
solution can address? And that's it totally
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at it's like being a whole,
a whole human right, is like being
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a whole present person. But we
operate in such a time, especially on
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platforms like linked in, where you
know, there's there's such a volume of
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hot takes and then there's such a
pressure those hot takes do well, right,
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they those hot takes do good numbers. Right, they're getting a lot
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of engagement, and so then there's
comments, right, yeah, right.
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So then there's this pressure, if
you do want to become a part of
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the community, to do the easy
thing and just, you know, talk
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at folks and give them hot takes, versus asking more questions and seeing what's
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really up. Yeah, like the
way you you laid this out. I'm
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not surprised. I knew when I
asked you on the show that there's some
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value here. I want want to
give you a chance, before I move
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on to the next segment, to
let the folks know any any other little
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things that you think are important when
it comes to under Stan in the distinction
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between performance marketing and brand marketing,
when it comes to to be to be.
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Yeah, I mean, the thing
that I've been thinking a lot about,
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and I'm trying to figure out how
to articulate this, is that all
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of the things that I do that
work for me, people try and think
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about what the Roi of what is. What's the Roi of me spending two
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hours a day answering comments on Linkedin
for people asking me questions and sending me
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messages, and most people would think
you're running rapidly going growing company. Why
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would you be spending two hours answering
questions for people that are never going to
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buy from you? And I think
people really need to think about it.
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I think about this long term.
I started this business six months ago.
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I've Wan on having it for a
while. I'm not I'm not it's not
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venture funded. I'm not trying to
sell it. I don't have a investorous
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answer to I don't care if we
get to the revenue target that we set
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next week, next month, because
I am playing for the long term.
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And so answering those comments and messages
do a couple things. Y One,
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it builds brand when I help someone
and impact them, then they go and
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tell someone else and I see people
come in inbound connection request. Hey,
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Susie told me about you. She
answered that question. Would love to connect
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with you. And when that's starts
happening a hundred times a day, you
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start to know what you're doing is
working, and so that's one thing.
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The second piece is that it's real
time market research. I test messaging,
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I test handling objections, I test
understanding how I position our offering, all
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inside of little conversations and dialogs,
inside of Linkedin, I know whether or
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not what I said resonated for someone
or if I need to change it.
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Those are all things that help me. That helped us go from not exactly
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knowing what our offering was six months
ago to rapidly getting more clear on exactly
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where to focus and where we had
value for companies, which could have taken
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a lot more time and a lot
more money had I done in a more
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traditional way. And so I don't
know how else to say this, but
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the things that I recommend to every
company I do myself. Got It like
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we run the exact same marketing model
at inside of our company that we recommend
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to everybody else with the intention of
when somebody comes in bound to us on
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Linkedin and becomes a six figure client
in five days, they just experienced exactly
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what their customers should experience in their
sales process. When we do it right,
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absolutely you're actually you're preaching to the
choir. We do that here as
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well as sweet fish media, and
there's no really know, there's no as
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I forget the exact way that don
draper phrased it, but you know,
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it basically is the LA. I
can't, I can't teach you Jesus right,
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like I can't. I can't make
you a believer if you're not.
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00:26:15.220 --> 00:26:18.730
You know, if you don't come
to the conversation already with a capacity to
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think differently, then nothing I could
do for you, man, you just
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might miss the boat. And so
I like the sort of proof is in
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the pudding way that you're talking and
think about what you're doing here. So
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now, Chris, that that I've
successfully picked your brain and see what I
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00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:36.599
could get out of it, it's
time for you to tell us about what
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00:26:36.680 --> 00:26:40.480
you're putting in it. So talk
to the people about a learning resource that
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you are engaging with that is you
informing your approach. This just got you
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00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:49.230
excited these days. Yeah, so
a couple of my influences that I think
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are are interesting. Is One I
watch a lot of B Toc brands that
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work for me and understand what they're
doing from a marketing, positioning content perspective.
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I reverse engineer why it works on
me and then I apply it to
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what I want to do. Super
Interesting. It's really really worked for me,
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and I'll give you an example.
So I'm maybe like three or four
355
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years ago. I'm going through instagram
stories. At that point instagram stories were
356
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actually pretty new. I go through
three a whatever they were trying to sell
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me hits me with up fifty team. Second Video. That was super compelling,
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and then I take I take a
mental note of that, understand where
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they were trying to drive me,
to understand what was positioned to the creative
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and why I caught my attention in
Santas, and then I repurpose that and
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use it to market medical devices,
solid advice. And so I know,
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Chris, that everybody listening, just
like me, has become fast fan of
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yours and they're going to want to
know how to keep up with you.
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So tell the people how we can
connect with you. So with think linkedin's
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00:28:00.099 --> 00:28:03.420
the best. Chris Walker, very
popular name, but the headline would be
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CEO refund labs. So I hope
you can. Hope you could find me,
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but that's that's the place where I
spend most by time right now.
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Perfect. He's out there, is
content is fire. Check them out.
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Thank you again so much, Chris, for coming on the show and helping
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us do you mystify of the distinction
between mom with working and brand market and
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thanks so much, man. Thanks
making we totally get it. We publish
372
00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:33.960
a ton of content on this podcast, and it can be a lot to
373
00:28:33.079 --> 00:28:37.319
keep up with. That's why we've
started the BOB growth big three, a
374
00:28:37.480 --> 00:28:42.029
no fluff email that boils down our
three biggest takeaways from an entire week of
375
00:28:42.150 --> 00:28:48.069
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Fish Mediacom big three. That sweet fish
376
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