1135: Is Intentional Self Delusion the Key to Managing Negative Emotions? w/ Garin Hess

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.200 Are you trying to establish your brand as a thought leader? Start a PODCAST, 2 00:00:04.679 --> 00:00:09.750 invite industry experts to be guests on your show and watch your brand become 3 00:00:09.830 --> 00:00:15.750 the prime resource for decision makers in your industry. Learn more at sweetphish MEDIACOM. 4 00:00:20.629 --> 00:00:24.780 You're listening to be tob growth, a daily podcast for B TOB leaders. 5 00:00:25.379 --> 00:00:28.859 We've interviewed names you've probably heard before, like Gary Vander truck and Simon 6 00:00:28.940 --> 00:00:33.219 Senek, but you've probably never heard from the majority of our guests. That's 7 00:00:33.299 --> 00:00:37.850 because the bulk of our interviews aren't with professional speakers and authors. Most of 8 00:00:37.929 --> 00:00:42.490 our guests are in the trenches leading sales and marketing teams. They're implementing strategy, 9 00:00:42.530 --> 00:00:47.049 they're experimenting with tactics, they're building the fastest growing BTB companies in the 10 00:00:47.130 --> 00:00:50.600 world. My name is James Carberry. I'm the founder of sweet fish media, 11 00:00:50.600 --> 00:00:54.479 a podcast agency for BB brands, and I'm also one of the cohosts 12 00:00:54.520 --> 00:00:58.320 of this show. When we're not interviewing sales and marketing leaders, you'll hear 13 00:00:58.439 --> 00:01:00.960 stories from behind the scenes of our own business. Will share the ups and 14 00:01:02.119 --> 00:01:06.030 downs of our journey as we attempt to take over the world. Just getting 15 00:01:06.629 --> 00:01:15.230 well, maybe let's get into the show. Welcome back to beb growth. 16 00:01:15.349 --> 00:01:19.180 I am your host for today's episode, Nikki Ivy, with sweet fish media. 17 00:01:19.859 --> 00:01:23.019 Today it's part of our leadership series. We're going to be talking to 18 00:01:23.140 --> 00:01:29.099 Garen Hess, who is founder and CEO of consensus. Scar, and how 19 00:01:29.140 --> 00:01:30.780 you doing day now? Doing Great. Thanks, Nikkie. It's great to 20 00:01:30.859 --> 00:01:34.530 be with you. Good. I'm so glad you came to talk to us. 21 00:01:34.609 --> 00:01:37.170 Like I said, as part of the leadership series we're going to be 22 00:01:37.849 --> 00:01:42.930 focusing on a couple concepts. Write the concept of rewriting reality and intentional selfdelusion. 23 00:01:44.329 --> 00:01:47.959 Super Jest to have you dig those for us. But before we do, 24 00:01:48.079 --> 00:01:49.719 before we get into all of that, I'd love it if you would 25 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:53.519 just give us a little bit of background on yourself and what you and the 26 00:01:53.519 --> 00:01:57.879 folks that consensus are up to these days. Yeah, absolutely so. Consensus 27 00:01:57.920 --> 00:02:02.230 as a software startup that helps pre sales teams and other software companies, meaning 28 00:02:02.269 --> 00:02:07.750 sales engineers, scale their pre cells function, which is through the use of 29 00:02:07.870 --> 00:02:14.469 interactive video demos. So our software helps sales engineers create these demos and then 30 00:02:14.509 --> 00:02:19.900 sales people send them out and track engagement. It's really to help equip the 31 00:02:20.539 --> 00:02:24.620 prospects of your target organization to sell for you inside their organization. So, 32 00:02:25.139 --> 00:02:30.169 in a nutshell, it's we're all about interactive demo automation. I love it. 33 00:02:30.289 --> 00:02:35.210 Yeah, was just actually talking to a woman this morning about that. 34 00:02:35.969 --> 00:02:38.689 The way that we all know it by this point, that we're looking at 35 00:02:38.770 --> 00:02:43.370 buying teens versus individuals. Oh Yeah, and our organization that just done some 36 00:02:43.490 --> 00:02:46.759 research around the fact that, you know, while, yes, we're moving 37 00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:51.560 toward, you know, enabling folks to do more and get more information on 38 00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:53.719 their buying journey digitally, one of the best things we can do to remove 39 00:02:53.759 --> 00:02:59.750 friction. Is recognized that we have to facilitate those internal conversations, and so 40 00:02:59.789 --> 00:03:01.389 it sounds like that's awesome of the work that you guys are doing. So 41 00:03:01.509 --> 00:03:07.270 that's exciting. Um. But today, today we're going to be talking about 42 00:03:07.909 --> 00:03:10.550 those leadership concepts that I mentioned. So just to get started, I'll have 43 00:03:10.629 --> 00:03:15.259 you go ahead and just defy the terms for us here. What is meant 44 00:03:15.340 --> 00:03:20.060 by? I think I know what rewriting reality is, but talk of talk 45 00:03:20.139 --> 00:03:23.699 to us about intentional selfdelusion and then have those things work together. Yeah, 46 00:03:23.740 --> 00:03:28.129 I mean, and a lot of ways they're just descriptions of the same thing, 47 00:03:28.810 --> 00:03:30.810 but one is a little bit more extreme. So you know, as 48 00:03:30.849 --> 00:03:36.849 leaders, were constantly running into obstacles and setbacks and everybody's looking to us and 49 00:03:36.969 --> 00:03:43.120 we set the tone both from operational standpoint and productivity standpoint, but also from 50 00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:46.919 an emotional and emotional standpoint. And so the big question is one of the 51 00:03:47.080 --> 00:03:51.400 things I've been working on, I guess, over the last couple of years, 52 00:03:51.599 --> 00:03:54.000 is just how to deal with negative emotion when you're a leader, because 53 00:03:54.039 --> 00:03:57.669 nobody really wants you to stand up in a team meeting and say, you 54 00:03:57.750 --> 00:04:00.870 know, I feel depressed today. Is anyone else want to be depressed with 55 00:04:00.990 --> 00:04:08.030 me? And so I started thinking about this concept when i Read Ben Horrowitz's 56 00:04:08.110 --> 00:04:12.139 book the hard thing, about hard things, and he has a section in 57 00:04:12.180 --> 00:04:16.379 there called where he calls it managing your own psychology and he argues that it's 58 00:04:16.420 --> 00:04:20.540 the most important thing that an Nentrepentur can do. And I wasn't sure what 59 00:04:20.620 --> 00:04:24.889 I thought of that when when he said that, but the more that I've 60 00:04:25.449 --> 00:04:29.610 thought about it, the more I think that's true because, like Elon Musk, 61 00:04:29.769 --> 00:04:32.449 want you know, famously said, running us a startup is like eating 62 00:04:32.569 --> 00:04:38.639 glass and there's just so many negative experiences that you have, even though you 63 00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:43.759 know the American pop culture makes it out to be that it's this amazing experience, 64 00:04:43.759 --> 00:04:46.000 and it is an amazing experience, but it seems like it's just everybody 65 00:04:46.040 --> 00:04:49.879 wants to be an entrepentr because it's so glamorous. Well, in reality it's 66 00:04:50.079 --> 00:04:55.149 a lot of ups and downs and many for many months, sometimes it's just 67 00:04:55.350 --> 00:04:57.870 down after down and you've got to figure out how to get through that. 68 00:04:58.629 --> 00:05:04.350 And so I started thinking about this and came across this concept of rewriting reality. 69 00:05:04.910 --> 00:05:09.540 And the reason I came up with this concept of intentional self delusion is 70 00:05:09.620 --> 00:05:13.660 because I heard one CEO basically say that. He says I not only look 71 00:05:13.660 --> 00:05:19.660 at things optimistically, but I intentionally delude myself, do into taking an optimistic 72 00:05:19.699 --> 00:05:23.889 view. And it doesn't make any sense at all. And the goal here 73 00:05:23.970 --> 00:05:29.250 really is to try to change the the outcome of self fulfilling prophecy. That's 74 00:05:29.610 --> 00:05:32.370 that's the way that I think about it. So when you're negative, you 75 00:05:32.529 --> 00:05:40.319 tend to to negatively influence the future and when you're positive, you you tend 76 00:05:40.399 --> 00:05:45.879 to positively influent influence the future, and so and sometimes it may come across 77 00:05:45.959 --> 00:05:50.470 to other people as is delusion. Is So ridiculous, that you're being positive 78 00:05:50.790 --> 00:05:56.149 and that's everything that's going on. That it. It may seem delusional to 79 00:05:56.310 --> 00:06:00.189 other people, but the goal is not so much to care what other people 80 00:06:00.189 --> 00:06:03.459 are thinking, because the goal is to change your own psychology. So you've 81 00:06:03.459 --> 00:06:10.860 got to delude yourself in some sense so that your your emotion can can be 82 00:06:11.019 --> 00:06:15.139 positive and create positive energy. And I'm not really talking here about ignoring the 83 00:06:15.300 --> 00:06:19.089 facts. I anyone who knows me knows that I try to be brutally honest 84 00:06:19.129 --> 00:06:24.490 and never try to evade the reality of what's happening. But the problem is 85 00:06:24.610 --> 00:06:29.050 when you take that approach, which is really important, to not ignore negative 86 00:06:29.089 --> 00:06:30.970 things that might be happening, when you take that approach, it can be 87 00:06:31.009 --> 00:06:36.120 easy to just be dragged down into the abyss. So this is a technique 88 00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:41.800 of rewriting reality that I'm actively practicing and and sometimes, you know, con 89 00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:45.040 border on self delusion. So that's where those terms come from. Yeah, 90 00:06:45.079 --> 00:06:46.910 I got it, and so that's what I think about what you're saying. 91 00:06:46.910 --> 00:06:50.430 It's not all that, you know, difficult to get on board with, 92 00:06:51.269 --> 00:06:55.269 but I do understand this initial push back, because it's kind of the story 93 00:06:55.310 --> 00:06:58.629 of my life, right, I'm good at this. Versus two folks, 94 00:06:59.149 --> 00:07:01.180 you know, tend to ask like how is, why is she always so 95 00:07:01.300 --> 00:07:03.620 happy? Does it? You know, don't things ever happen? Because, 96 00:07:04.100 --> 00:07:08.060 yeah, like it's off is obnochiesm'm I been going through this since I was 97 00:07:08.139 --> 00:07:12.339 like the heart school, and people do those research to support the fact that 98 00:07:12.379 --> 00:07:15.970 people do tend to take you list seriously if you say smile more often. 99 00:07:15.970 --> 00:07:19.050 JIB leader right now, but there's also reasons, first, to support the 100 00:07:19.089 --> 00:07:21.370 fact that they, you know, maybe respond to you better as well. 101 00:07:21.410 --> 00:07:27.529 And so this idea, what you just described, if this virtuous creative cycle 102 00:07:27.889 --> 00:07:30.160 and the negative destructive cycle, right, that's the sounds like. That's what 103 00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:34.279 you're describing, right, the thinking of taking the the negative things and sort 104 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:38.920 of putting them where they belong and then taking the positive things that happen the 105 00:07:38.959 --> 00:07:42.519 foresight to understand that, if they're not the condition now, they will be, 106 00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:45.550 because the question is, if you not doing that, what's the alternative? 107 00:07:45.589 --> 00:07:47.430 Yeah, right, the alternative is just to get dragged down, and 108 00:07:47.829 --> 00:07:53.110 I mean and the real, the real challenges that negative emotions really don't mean 109 00:07:53.149 --> 00:07:57.870 anything. Negative emotions are simply a reaction to what we're thinking, and so 110 00:07:58.310 --> 00:08:01.740 if we change our thinking, the emotions can turn around and that can help 111 00:08:01.819 --> 00:08:07.339 give the energy that creates that that creative, virtuous cycle rather than the destructive 112 00:08:07.379 --> 00:08:09.019 cycle. I mean, I think about you know, let's say we lose 113 00:08:09.060 --> 00:08:13.689 a big deal, an important deal with the customer, potential customer, and 114 00:08:13.769 --> 00:08:16.649 we might be saying, Oh man, I just I lost that deal. 115 00:08:16.209 --> 00:08:18.769 We aren't doing so great this quarter, we might not make our target. 116 00:08:20.129 --> 00:08:24.009 Then what? And that'll get us down and discouraged and and so this leads 117 00:08:24.050 --> 00:08:30.000 to more negative emotions and those negative emotions cause us to perform poorly on the 118 00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:33.200 next sales call rather than in a productive way, and it could influence another 119 00:08:33.320 --> 00:08:37.639 deal to get lost. And so our negative emotions are not harmless. They 120 00:08:37.679 --> 00:08:41.669 are they're actually, of course, we all know, harmful to our own 121 00:08:41.149 --> 00:08:46.070 bodies, our own wellbeing, but they're also harmful to our own performance, 122 00:08:46.149 --> 00:08:50.750 and not only our performance as an individual, but especially when we're in leadership 123 00:08:50.750 --> 00:08:54.350 positions. Everybody takes the tone from what we're doing. And you know, 124 00:08:54.389 --> 00:08:58.019 I've in our start and consensus we've gone through a lot of different changes because 125 00:08:58.059 --> 00:09:05.179 we started selling into mostly marketers of small business and over the journey of the 126 00:09:05.340 --> 00:09:09.529 last five years we've we've gone through so many pivots and have finally found our 127 00:09:09.970 --> 00:09:16.330 key target which are pre sales teams and enterprise software companies. And but going 128 00:09:16.450 --> 00:09:20.929 through all those changes required a lot of change. It required sometimes letting people 129 00:09:20.929 --> 00:09:26.159 go, sometimes in mass and layoffs when cash flow is terrible and you know, 130 00:09:28.120 --> 00:09:31.399 being a survivor is the number one thing you have to do. And 131 00:09:31.559 --> 00:09:35.799 startups because you you can't. It's really about how many learning cycles you can 132 00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:39.830 go through before you find the right mix of positioning, messaging, pricing, 133 00:09:39.870 --> 00:09:43.389 packaging, features and benefits, you know, all of that, in the 134 00:09:43.429 --> 00:09:50.309 right market. And so it's very rare that start up on trepreneurs just headed 135 00:09:50.350 --> 00:09:52.429 out of the park right off the bat. It happens. We all like 136 00:09:52.509 --> 00:09:56.019 to glorify those who do it, but more often than not, the ones 137 00:09:56.019 --> 00:09:58.220 that succeed are the ones that are willing to, you know, chew that 138 00:09:58.299 --> 00:10:03.820 glass that Elon Musk was talking about, and eventually it turns into something good. 139 00:10:03.860 --> 00:10:07.690 And so this is just a technique where, instead of focusing on the 140 00:10:07.850 --> 00:10:13.009 the negative, you focus on on what's positive and it's more than being just 141 00:10:13.169 --> 00:10:18.049 optimistic. It's really asking the question. So that this question came from a 142 00:10:18.090 --> 00:10:22.480 book called the Charisma Myth by Olivia Fox. I'm not sure how you say 143 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:28.000 her name, cabin cabin. It's a really interesting book and this is where 144 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:31.879 I first came across the term rewriting reality. And she suggests you read this 145 00:10:33.039 --> 00:10:35.990 or ask this question. How does what's happening are right now? How is 146 00:10:37.029 --> 00:10:41.549 this going to work out perfectly for me? And she gives us example in 147 00:10:41.629 --> 00:10:43.950 her book about how she was going to make this big presentation. She was 148 00:10:45.110 --> 00:10:48.110 nervous, it was going to mean everything and she was so filled with this 149 00:10:48.309 --> 00:10:52.059 fear that she was going to fail that she was just in the pit of 150 00:10:52.700 --> 00:10:58.379 this despair before she was doing this presentation in the hotel that night. So 151 00:10:58.019 --> 00:11:03.700 she decided to rewrite the reality and she imagined in her mind how it was 152 00:11:03.779 --> 00:11:07.009 going to go. And even though there were a lot of indicators that are 153 00:11:07.090 --> 00:11:09.529 already there were, there're certain leading indicators that it wasn't going to go well, 154 00:11:09.610 --> 00:11:13.409 which was what was making her nervous. She she imagined that she was 155 00:11:13.529 --> 00:11:18.169 going to be dynamic and her presentation, that she was going to remember everything 156 00:11:18.250 --> 00:11:20.399 she needed to, that she that the people were going to respond a certain 157 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:28.679 way and completely changed her own ability to to perform. And it kind of 158 00:11:28.759 --> 00:11:33.669 reminded me of the way you hear athletes sort of imagining right before they perform, 159 00:11:35.190 --> 00:11:39.710 right actually all the details and and indeed that situation turned around for her 160 00:11:39.750 --> 00:11:45.909 and actually turned out to be the perfect experience that she needed. And she's 161 00:11:45.950 --> 00:11:48.659 not advocating, and or am I that, you know, taking a pollyanna 162 00:11:50.019 --> 00:11:54.059 under glasses, always have full attitude, is going to change everything all the 163 00:11:54.179 --> 00:12:00.460 time, but it sets you up to to have a better chance at it, 164 00:12:00.539 --> 00:12:03.409 so your odds are much better and, of course, it's more enjoyable. 165 00:12:03.409 --> 00:12:05.970 None of us like to carry around negative feelings all the time. Yeah, 166 00:12:07.049 --> 00:12:09.570 and it's actually it's a show of strength and you know, the type 167 00:12:09.610 --> 00:12:13.289 of discipline and self control that the leaders need. Here's what I mean, 168 00:12:13.490 --> 00:12:18.360 right, because we know that everybody experience these negative emotions, like you've been 169 00:12:18.840 --> 00:12:24.200 talking about. The want the folks who rise as leaders and who are more 170 00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:28.919 better assets to their teams are the ones who have control of room. The 171 00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:33.710 case in point. I I was on a sales team and the SVP of 172 00:12:33.789 --> 00:12:35.269 sales is a person who's mentored me for a long time ago, I really 173 00:12:35.309 --> 00:12:39.269 look up to. was having lunch with myself and a few other sales reps 174 00:12:39.549 --> 00:12:45.419 and at the time this exchange I wondered I would have why was he so 175 00:12:45.500 --> 00:12:46.700 short with this gentleman. The young woman was just sitting there at lunch. 176 00:12:46.899 --> 00:12:50.860 She goes, she goes, uh, I'm so tired and he, before 177 00:12:50.980 --> 00:12:54.940 she could finish her sentence, almost goes, how does that contribute to the 178 00:12:56.419 --> 00:12:58.889 people around you now? What does that even you know, how does that 179 00:12:58.970 --> 00:13:01.649 help anybody? And I was just like wow, me he this guy, 180 00:13:01.649 --> 00:13:05.330 guy has reputation of being like he makes sales people ride type guy. But, 181 00:13:07.250 --> 00:13:11.970 but, but, yeah, and so at the time I was just 182 00:13:11.090 --> 00:13:13.120 like why did why that happened? But the more I thought of it, 183 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:18.039 I understood he's probably more tired than all of us. I happen to know 184 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:20.720 he wakes up at like four am every day. I happen to know he 185 00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:24.279 didn't usually leave the office into like six after to know that he you know, 186 00:13:24.840 --> 00:13:28.309 I'm he's a hard working person, a lot of most folks, who 187 00:13:28.350 --> 00:13:33.470 all folks and leadership are. And what he was really getting at is sverbalizing 188 00:13:33.629 --> 00:13:39.350 that giving more life and attention and energy to how tired you are. Not 189 00:13:39.590 --> 00:13:43.220 only is it not good for you, but it's not good for your team. 190 00:13:43.259 --> 00:13:46.259 And he has such a grasp of that that what I was seeing was 191 00:13:46.379 --> 00:13:48.820 it's you're right, it's not as definitely not pollyanna. This is like this 192 00:13:48.899 --> 00:13:54.379 dude. It's serious about strategy, right strategy. This is something that he's 193 00:13:54.460 --> 00:13:58.929 been actively, you know, applying to his lifestyle and the way that he 194 00:14:00.090 --> 00:14:05.330 does business for a result, and he's getting a return on it. So 195 00:14:05.450 --> 00:14:09.169 when you think of it in those terms, you're less likely to be resistant 196 00:14:09.210 --> 00:14:11.360 to it as oh, that's not my personality type. And because you're right, 197 00:14:11.399 --> 00:14:16.320 I'm, like I've shared at the beginning. When folks see me, 198 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:20.320 what's what I would say, overcoming. That's what it is, just out 199 00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:24.389 here overcoming as I'm called to do. Right they are, they said the 200 00:14:24.710 --> 00:14:30.990 return on investment. I think that's that's a big key, because the really 201 00:14:31.149 --> 00:14:35.029 what you put into it as an effort is is going to come back in 202 00:14:35.149 --> 00:14:37.149 spades. and to some of us, I'm not naturally you know, I'm 203 00:14:37.149 --> 00:14:43.100 not like Mary poppins, who has a naturally cheerful disposition. And and so 204 00:14:43.539 --> 00:14:46.220 I may have to work at this harder than the average person, but what 205 00:14:46.340 --> 00:14:50.299 I've found is as I put effort into it, it comes back in huge 206 00:14:50.379 --> 00:14:56.090 ways, both personally and as a leader. And you know, it's as 207 00:14:56.129 --> 00:14:58.970 I think about how this, how this works, I haven't think about other 208 00:15:00.090 --> 00:15:01.730 leaders where I've seen this, this work and I've seen at first hand. 209 00:15:01.769 --> 00:15:05.570 And then I see it in some historical figures as well. I mean one 210 00:15:05.649 --> 00:15:09.360 example is is Steve Jobs Right, the famous reality distortion field. Well, 211 00:15:09.879 --> 00:15:15.440 that wasn't always didn't always come across as positive, and yet it yielded positive 212 00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:20.870 results, perhaps better results than anyone else has ever accomplished in business. And 213 00:15:20.909 --> 00:15:28.389 and yet he he persistently refused to accept the current facts and would shape his 214 00:15:28.590 --> 00:15:31.629 view of how the future was going to be the way he wanted it. 215 00:15:31.870 --> 00:15:35.019 And that was and that came across as deluded to a lot of people and 216 00:15:35.100 --> 00:15:37.860 that's why they came up with this term, you know, reality distortion field. 217 00:15:37.899 --> 00:15:41.419 But he was so good at doing this. Not to say he was 218 00:15:41.460 --> 00:15:45.259 always full of positive energy. You know, he wasn't necessarily, but he 219 00:15:45.419 --> 00:15:52.330 did try to take the facts and rewrite them to fit his his potential goals 220 00:15:52.409 --> 00:15:54.490 and that worked out more often than not for him. Yeah, I was 221 00:15:54.529 --> 00:15:58.090 going to ask you about that if he had any any examples of, you 222 00:15:58.169 --> 00:16:00.809 know, folks who got that right, and I think that that that example 223 00:16:00.889 --> 00:16:04.240 you gave is a really strong one, because I don't think that there's anyone 224 00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:11.960 out there who would, who would paint see jobs as paully Anna exactly well. 225 00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:14.399 There are two others that I want to share. One of them a 226 00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:18.470 personal experience. I had leslie stretched. He's the CEO of Medalia now, 227 00:16:18.669 --> 00:16:23.190 is former CEO of Caldas cloud. That sold the SAP earlier this year for 228 00:16:23.309 --> 00:16:29.429 two point eight billion dollars and they acquired my last company, Caldas cloud did, 229 00:16:29.870 --> 00:16:33.179 and I worked with Leslie for about a year and I decided to leave 230 00:16:33.259 --> 00:16:37.659 and start another company, which is why I'm running this company now. And 231 00:16:37.820 --> 00:16:41.419 he said something really interesting. He was kind of bummed. He tried really 232 00:16:41.500 --> 00:16:42.779 hard to keep me on a team, but then he said, you know 233 00:16:42.860 --> 00:16:47.929 what, this is difficult, but I've been through so much adversity and I've 234 00:16:47.929 --> 00:16:49.049 always been able to handle it. We're going to be fine, this is 235 00:16:49.090 --> 00:16:52.610 all going to work out, and I mean he said it verbally right, 236 00:16:52.769 --> 00:16:59.049 while we were in the middle of of I basically was telling him, I'm 237 00:16:59.090 --> 00:17:03.480 sorry, after all the efforts you've made, I'm still leaving. And and 238 00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:07.000 he is a CEO that, I think, while again, I wouldn't say, 239 00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:11.319 as always, you know, a positive personality. He is able to 240 00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:18.230 take difficult circumstances and and just restate how it's going to be. And I 241 00:17:18.430 --> 00:17:21.390 saw it happened, you know, real time right there. And you know, 242 00:17:21.430 --> 00:17:23.349 another one that I that I'd like to mention, and I hope it 243 00:17:23.390 --> 00:17:26.789 doesn't get too personal, but I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, 244 00:17:26.869 --> 00:17:30.900 a Latter Day saints, and the founder. His name was Joseph Smith, 245 00:17:32.140 --> 00:17:36.019 and anyone who's into history sometimes, yeah, of a bad rap, 246 00:17:36.299 --> 00:17:40.420 but the one thing that I want to emphasize is that he was also really 247 00:17:40.460 --> 00:17:45.529 good at this skill. I mean, the man was in prison for nine 248 00:17:45.650 --> 00:17:48.970 months in a jail cell that he couldn't even stand up in all the way. 249 00:17:49.009 --> 00:17:52.049 It was too short, and he was stuck there for nine months. 250 00:17:52.890 --> 00:17:56.490 He eventually was murdered by a mob, you know. So this is life. 251 00:17:56.609 --> 00:18:02.119 Was Not easy by any stretch of the imagination. But here's an example 252 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:04.440 of what he said in the midst of all this going on, he said, 253 00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:08.599 and this you know says in middle s, so the language kind of 254 00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:12.349 comes from there. He said courage, brethren, and on onto the victory. 255 00:18:12.390 --> 00:18:17.710 Let your hearts rejoice and be exceedingly glad. You know, I'm thinking 256 00:18:18.190 --> 00:18:21.630 one that's not really my moo of the way I speak to my team, 257 00:18:22.509 --> 00:18:26.380 but the fact that he could even say that while he's in the middle of 258 00:18:26.619 --> 00:18:33.900 all these difficulties, extreme difficulties, is something that I've always been really impressed 259 00:18:33.940 --> 00:18:37.700 with. Yeah, for sure. Another another really good example of you know 260 00:18:37.460 --> 00:18:40.460 what you called it there. I go on to key in on that. 261 00:18:40.579 --> 00:18:42.609 you called it a skill. It's absolutely that and I think that that's what 262 00:18:42.730 --> 00:18:47.569 that what's at the heart of this conversation, is that we are not so. 263 00:18:48.369 --> 00:18:51.089 For the longest time, and it's still the case, I've had the 264 00:18:51.250 --> 00:18:57.359 phrase relentlessly optimistic on my on my resume. Subscribe myself as under the traits 265 00:18:57.519 --> 00:19:00.680 part. Yeah, and it's important to me to not have the one without 266 00:19:00.759 --> 00:19:04.200 the other, because for just like what you're talking about, I think that 267 00:19:04.519 --> 00:19:10.109 the optimism, maybe some is something that we, you know, our childhood 268 00:19:10.150 --> 00:19:14.509 or just our our spirit. Who will how we're born sort of has a 269 00:19:14.549 --> 00:19:18.589 lot of influence on. But the relentless part is the part that we that 270 00:19:18.710 --> 00:19:22.069 we build as a spork. Yeah, right, Yep, that's that's the 271 00:19:22.190 --> 00:19:25.779 part that you that you work on, and and I think for leaders, 272 00:19:25.779 --> 00:19:27.579 especially for the reasons that you've done a really good job of outlining here, 273 00:19:29.259 --> 00:19:33.299 it's super important to keep that in mind. So thanks so much for laying 274 00:19:33.380 --> 00:19:37.420 that out the way that you did and given such really good examples of what 275 00:19:37.539 --> 00:19:42.009 that looks like and making the case, the case for rewriting reality and engaging 276 00:19:42.049 --> 00:19:47.690 in intentional selfdelusion. So now that I've successfully picked a brain and thing what 277 00:19:47.769 --> 00:19:49.529 I could get out of it, it's time for you to tell us about 278 00:19:49.569 --> 00:19:52.920 what you are putting in it. So let us know about of thing that 279 00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:57.599 you've been engaging with that is informing your approach. Or this just got you 280 00:19:57.720 --> 00:20:03.119 excited these days? Yeah, you know, one thing that I'm super interested 281 00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:07.230 in right now and have been diving into deeply the last couple of years is 282 00:20:07.750 --> 00:20:11.309 what's called buyer enablement, and I'm actually just finishing up a book on it 283 00:20:11.630 --> 00:20:15.309 and for Right now, I think we're just finalizing the title. I think 284 00:20:15.349 --> 00:20:19.109 the book's going to be called selling is easy. Buying as hard. Yeah, 285 00:20:19.150 --> 00:20:23.299 and and it should be out early next year. But by our enablements 286 00:20:23.380 --> 00:20:29.740 all about how you facilitate and enable the different stakeholders in that buying group that 287 00:20:29.779 --> 00:20:33.180 you talked about at the beginning of the conversation. And what I've found through 288 00:20:33.220 --> 00:20:38.009 experimentation and research, and Gartner and some of the other analyst firms really into 289 00:20:38.049 --> 00:20:41.849 this as well, is that buyers are spending less and less time with us 290 00:20:41.849 --> 00:20:47.809 as vendors, and so being able to enable them and equip them with the 291 00:20:48.009 --> 00:20:52.440 things they need to be effective at making the decision, selling for you internally 292 00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:56.799 and things like that. Those are are some of the strategies that I've been 293 00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:02.319 not only thinking about but trying to put into practice and writing about lately. 294 00:21:02.440 --> 00:21:07.869 So by our enablement, I think, is is really the only true skill 295 00:21:07.109 --> 00:21:11.630 in sales, because sales people. As sales people, we can't close deals. 296 00:21:11.670 --> 00:21:15.029 I hear people say this all the time. I can close deals, 297 00:21:15.069 --> 00:21:17.509 he's the closer, and I'm saying really, did you sign the contract? 298 00:21:17.990 --> 00:21:19.140 No, and you know, I understand what they're saying. You know, 299 00:21:19.220 --> 00:21:23.180 some people are better at helping the buyers than others and they are cut and 300 00:21:23.380 --> 00:21:26.420 we call them closers, but the reality is none of us can close a 301 00:21:26.539 --> 00:21:30.579 deal, only the buyers can, and so inasmuch as we can facilitate that 302 00:21:30.779 --> 00:21:36.650 group, that is that is the entirety of BTB sales. So that's now. 303 00:21:36.730 --> 00:21:38.890 It's all a say on it for now to go. Know, you're 304 00:21:38.930 --> 00:21:42.650 you're pretty to the choir. I think. You know, the those of 305 00:21:42.690 --> 00:21:47.799 us look into the future are quickly moving as sales people from, you know, 306 00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:52.559 figuring out how we can be better persuaders or be more persuasive, in 307 00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:57.359 figuring out how we can be better enablers and these connectors. Yeah, right, 308 00:21:57.440 --> 00:22:03.910 I think that that does start with being able to develop a better skill 309 00:22:03.910 --> 00:22:07.789 as an influencer. But the distinction between the you know, being having influence 310 00:22:07.869 --> 00:22:11.990 and being persuasive is super important here, and so I'd like the way that 311 00:22:12.069 --> 00:22:15.940 you that you talk about that. I think that that's the direction into going, 312 00:22:15.180 --> 00:22:18.259 hopefully, because, you know what, it's one of those things that 313 00:22:18.380 --> 00:22:22.339 be to C has been getting right for a long time, right, they've 314 00:22:22.339 --> 00:22:27.700 been moving things out of our way as consumers for so long. Yeah, 315 00:22:27.859 --> 00:22:33.170 and we're only just now starting to really crack that open in terms of be 316 00:22:33.329 --> 00:22:37.809 Toc and I think that we haven't seen, you know, we've only seen 317 00:22:37.890 --> 00:22:41.809 the tip of the iceberg in terms of what we're going to have to start 318 00:22:41.849 --> 00:22:45.559 to do to keep up with this expectation. Shouldn't folks have to have as 319 00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:48.960 frictionalist and experience when they're dealing with, you know, a consumer brand as 320 00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:52.440 they are when they're dealing with the a BB brand? So I'm glad you 321 00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:55.720 brought that little tip bit up. That's a whole other podcast episode that I 322 00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:59.670 can have you on for. Thanks for that listen. I know that you 323 00:22:59.710 --> 00:23:02.829 know everybody, just like me who's listening is has become a fast fan of 324 00:23:02.869 --> 00:23:04.630 yours. They're going to want to keep up with you. So tell a 325 00:23:04.710 --> 00:23:07.910 folks, tell us how we can connect with you. Yeah, yeah, 326 00:23:07.910 --> 00:23:11.109 I mean you can reach me, you know, by email at Garen at 327 00:23:11.190 --> 00:23:17.700 go consensuscom. You can reach me a through twitter at Garen underscore hess, 328 00:23:18.619 --> 00:23:21.099 either of those, and of course you can look me up on Linkedin as 329 00:23:21.140 --> 00:23:22.779 well. I would love to connect with any of you. It's just been 330 00:23:22.779 --> 00:23:26.059 a pleasure speaking with you, Nikki, and I love talking about leadership, 331 00:23:26.059 --> 00:23:30.450 positive psychology, any of those kinds of things that, of course, fire 332 00:23:30.450 --> 00:23:34.450 enablement and BTB sales close to my heart as well, so love to connect 333 00:23:34.450 --> 00:23:41.519 with any of you. Thanks so much. Thank you. We totally get 334 00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:45.200 it. We publish a ton of content on this podcast and it can be 335 00:23:45.319 --> 00:23:49.200 a lot to keep up with. That's why we've started the BDB growth big 336 00:23:49.279 --> 00:23:53.720 three, a no fluff email that boils down our three biggest takeaways from an 337 00:23:53.759 --> 00:24:00.309 entire week of episodes. Sign up today at Sweet Fish Mediacom big three. 338 00:24:00.630 --> 00:24:03.029 That sweet PHISH MEDIACOM Big Three