1129: How Being a Better Copywriter Can Level Up Your Sales and Marketing Game w/ Andy Mackensen

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:04.519 Want to expand the reach of your content, start a podcast, feature industry 2 00:00:04.639 --> 00:00:08.910 experts on your show and leverage the influence and reach of your guests to grow 3 00:00:08.990 --> 00:00:18.670 your brand. Learn more at sweetfish MEDIACOM. You're listening to be tob growth, 4 00:00:19.109 --> 00:00:23.500 a daily podcast for B TOB leaders. We've interviewed names you've probably heard 5 00:00:23.500 --> 00:00:27.379 before, like Gary Vander truck and Simon Senek, but you've probably never heard 6 00:00:27.460 --> 00:00:31.699 from the majority of our guests. That's because the bulk of our interviews aren't 7 00:00:31.739 --> 00:00:36.289 with professional speakers and authors. Most of our guests are in the trenches leading 8 00:00:36.329 --> 00:00:41.170 sales and marketing teams. They're implementing strategy, they're experimenting with tactics, they're 9 00:00:41.210 --> 00:00:45.729 building the fastest growing BTB companies in the world. My name is James Carberry. 10 00:00:45.810 --> 00:00:49.329 I'm the founder of sweet fish media, a podcast agency for BB brands, 11 00:00:49.490 --> 00:00:52.520 and I'm also one of the CO hosts of this show. When we're 12 00:00:52.560 --> 00:00:56.399 not interviewing sales and marketing leaders, you'll hear stories from behind the scenes of 13 00:00:56.479 --> 00:01:00.119 our own business. Will share the ups and downs of our journey as we 14 00:01:00.200 --> 00:01:04.510 attempt to take over the world. Just getting well, maybe let's get into 15 00:01:04.510 --> 00:01:12.870 the show. Welcome back to BEDB growth. I am your host for today's 16 00:01:12.909 --> 00:01:18.819 episode, Nikki Ivy, with sweetish media as I've got with me today Andy 17 00:01:18.900 --> 00:01:23.620 Mackinson, who is co founder and Cmo at Snack Nation, and y. 18 00:01:23.939 --> 00:01:27.140 How you doing the day? What is happening, Nikki? I'm doing well. 19 00:01:27.219 --> 00:01:33.250 How are you? I'd like when people return the sunshine already fun. 20 00:01:33.890 --> 00:01:37.049 I'm good. I'm good. I'm excited to talk about what you're going to 21 00:01:37.129 --> 00:01:40.209 help is dig into. Today. We're going to be talking about not just 22 00:01:40.370 --> 00:01:44.569 the importance of copywriting in sales and marketing, but you know, some things 23 00:01:44.650 --> 00:01:49.159 folks get wrong, why it's not as emphasized as it should be and all 24 00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:52.439 of that. It's personally interesting to me because, some of you may know, 25 00:01:52.719 --> 00:01:57.120 by background is in journalism, and so at heart I am a copywriter, 26 00:01:57.439 --> 00:02:00.719 but sales a lot of the time takes you far away from me. 27 00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:02.469 You don't always get to engage with that part of yourself as much. So 28 00:02:02.870 --> 00:02:06.590 you're minute for my own heart. Before we get into that stuff and deep 29 00:02:06.750 --> 00:02:07.909 I would love it if you would just give us all a little bit of 30 00:02:07.949 --> 00:02:13.349 background on yourself and what you in the folks that snack nation are up to 31 00:02:13.469 --> 00:02:17.379 these days. Well, Hey, snack nation is America's number one off of 32 00:02:17.460 --> 00:02:23.620 snack delivery experience plannings. Simple. So what we do is we discover the 33 00:02:23.819 --> 00:02:27.860 newest emerging snacks that are on the market. By the way, there's thousands 34 00:02:27.900 --> 00:02:30.810 of them out there, and we have a proprietary taste testing process where we 35 00:02:31.250 --> 00:02:35.930 bring these snacks in house, we put them through a five point checklist, 36 00:02:36.689 --> 00:02:40.770 determine which snacks are the best and then we curate them into boxes, ship 37 00:02:40.849 --> 00:02:46.120 themount to all fifty states, to over five thou businesses nationwide, and then 38 00:02:46.120 --> 00:02:53.039 all of the employees get amazing delicious snacks in the workplace to help improve morale, 39 00:02:53.560 --> 00:02:59.990 boost productivity and basically have a really Badass time at work. That's pretty 40 00:02:59.990 --> 00:03:05.629 much stagnation and nutshell, you just described an actual snack nation and I wasn't 41 00:03:05.629 --> 00:03:09.030 expecting that. I didn't know this. so much went into it. I'm 42 00:03:09.030 --> 00:03:13.819 pretty sure this neck nation is how I discovered. What's the popcorn in the 43 00:03:13.900 --> 00:03:16.099 purple bag? And it's like a kettle corn all, is it? Googles, 44 00:03:17.580 --> 00:03:23.780 they have a yeah, there's like I said, it is absolutely mind 45 00:03:23.819 --> 00:03:28.169 blowing how many new emerging snacks are coming out every day. It's a very 46 00:03:28.969 --> 00:03:31.650 fast paced industry right now. Yeah, my mind is literally blown by the 47 00:03:31.770 --> 00:03:37.969 fact that such such a volume of snacks exist. Yeah, but what we're 48 00:03:38.009 --> 00:03:40.960 going to really deal with today. Thanks for letting US know who you are 49 00:03:42.039 --> 00:03:46.439 and what you do and in what you do, your this success has got 50 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:50.560 to have, you know, some of some of that Ode to the premium 51 00:03:50.599 --> 00:03:53.400 put on copywriting and put on the importance of knowing how to craft a good 52 00:03:53.719 --> 00:03:58.110 a good message. So that's why I'm excited to hear you talk about this 53 00:03:58.189 --> 00:04:00.469 today. But to frame up this conversation, first talk to us about why 54 00:04:00.990 --> 00:04:04.830 more people aren't having this conversation. Why you don't think, when we're training, 55 00:04:05.509 --> 00:04:10.580 particularly sales people and sometimes marketers, whether is it more of an emphasis 56 00:04:10.699 --> 00:04:15.699 on copywriting? Yeah, I don't think people it's on people's radar copywriting. 57 00:04:15.139 --> 00:04:19.699 I mean the origins of copywriting, at least for Direct Response Marketing. I 58 00:04:19.779 --> 00:04:24.810 mean it goes way back to the early nineteen hundreds. You've got great's like 59 00:04:25.170 --> 00:04:30.649 clod Hopkins where he was helping sell Schlitz Beer, and you've got Eugene Schwartz 60 00:04:30.689 --> 00:04:35.009 in the s and you know Ogilvie and all these these names of phenomenal copywriters 61 00:04:35.129 --> 00:04:42.199 that were able to craft words on paper to get people to feel a certain 62 00:04:42.199 --> 00:04:46.199 way and then to take action to buy a product. And now, and 63 00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:50.040 I think in today's age, with the Internet and it being so easy to 64 00:04:50.199 --> 00:04:53.910 just say, Hey, I'm going to throw up and add on instagram or 65 00:04:53.949 --> 00:04:57.870 I'm going to jot down something really quick and put it up on ad words 66 00:04:57.910 --> 00:04:59.750 and, you know, and see if, see if that's going to you, 67 00:04:59.790 --> 00:05:01.870 you know, generate some clicks. I just don't think that the the 68 00:05:03.189 --> 00:05:09.100 training and the understanding of how important and how powerful copywriting is. I just 69 00:05:09.139 --> 00:05:15.100 don't think it's pervasive in in today's marketing and sales cultures, and that gives 70 00:05:15.100 --> 00:05:19.379 a big opportunity for for organizations who do understand the power of copywriting to study 71 00:05:19.420 --> 00:05:24.050 it and deploy it smartly. Sounds like we described is. It's not only 72 00:05:24.089 --> 00:05:27.810 that it's not pervasive in sales and marketing culture, it's not pervasive in culture 73 00:05:27.850 --> 00:05:31.370 period any not really. Yeah, right. And so you got these kids 74 00:05:31.449 --> 00:05:35.560 with their machines. No, you have folks being so used to communicating in 75 00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:42.560 such an instant and abbreviated way that you know it. It's pretty easy for 76 00:05:42.680 --> 00:05:46.160 that. I would call the art of it to get lost, because we 77 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:51.350 don't really reward people for that kind of thing anymore socially, you don't. 78 00:05:51.430 --> 00:05:55.589 In fact, the more words you use and the prettier they are, a 79 00:05:55.790 --> 00:05:59.750 lot of the time you run the risk of alienating more people. That's right. 80 00:05:59.910 --> 00:06:02.629 A Lot, a lot of marketers think, think like Cutesye statements and, 81 00:06:03.230 --> 00:06:08.300 you know, cute subject lines on emails, and you know Ogilvie said 82 00:06:08.300 --> 00:06:12.060 back in the the S. don't be cute, be very clear and be 83 00:06:12.220 --> 00:06:15.420 very directing in the words that you choose. I love it, I love 84 00:06:15.459 --> 00:06:19.089 you took such a firm stance on that. It gave me chills, seriously, 85 00:06:20.009 --> 00:06:24.089 because I fall into this trap a lot. As much as I have 86 00:06:24.370 --> 00:06:27.930 this my kids hate it, but as much as I have this love and 87 00:06:28.250 --> 00:06:34.519 respect for language and what it can do to really move people, to act 88 00:06:34.560 --> 00:06:41.000 like you talked about. Because I'm turning eight, I'm thirty sold and getting 89 00:06:41.160 --> 00:06:46.040 up are. There is this pressure, there is this pressure to give in 90 00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:50.069 to the cute and to sort of lean into that because you know that's going 91 00:06:50.110 --> 00:06:54.790 to be the the quicker win, but not necessarily, is what it sounds 92 00:06:54.829 --> 00:06:58.189 like you're talking about, and I think you're right when you talk about why 93 00:06:58.230 --> 00:07:02.100 it's not so so emphasized. So So, let's say folks listening are with 94 00:07:02.300 --> 00:07:08.060 US and they've agreed that, yes, this is something we need to start 95 00:07:08.100 --> 00:07:13.060 to emphasize them more. Where would you begin? Right, and all of 96 00:07:13.139 --> 00:07:17.730 the all of the the channels where there's opportunity to really go all in on 97 00:07:17.810 --> 00:07:24.170 on your copywriting and honing and mastering. That still the email or your social 98 00:07:24.170 --> 00:07:26.649 where would you? Where would you start? Yeah, well, the the 99 00:07:26.850 --> 00:07:30.279 first place to start is study the greats. I stand on the shoulders of 100 00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:35.639 giants. There's you know, we look at how we can very quick I 101 00:07:35.720 --> 00:07:41.839 mentioned ad words and instagram whatnot. Like you can put two ads on on 102 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:46.470 ad words and split test them and get results and find something out in you 103 00:07:46.550 --> 00:07:48.910 know, depending on how much you're spending in what the traffic is, a 104 00:07:49.029 --> 00:07:53.310 couple hours, maybe even less if you're spending a lot. Think about what 105 00:07:53.509 --> 00:07:59.220 the direct mail marketers in the early nineteen hundreds had to do in order to 106 00:07:59.300 --> 00:08:03.899 get split test results. They had to figure out not only what to write 107 00:08:03.379 --> 00:08:07.980 and and get the copywriting down, typically in long form letters, they then 108 00:08:09.019 --> 00:08:13.810 had to put those letters in envelopes, apply stamps to them, get all 109 00:08:13.850 --> 00:08:18.410 the addresses down, acquire the list, send the mailers out and then the 110 00:08:20.009 --> 00:08:24.290 prospect when they receive the mailer. They had to cut out a Johnson box, 111 00:08:24.370 --> 00:08:28.360 which is like a dotted line coupon. You had to cut it out, 112 00:08:28.439 --> 00:08:31.120 you had to fill in your name and information with pen. You had 113 00:08:31.159 --> 00:08:35.919 to include a check with payment. You had to take that, stick it 114 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:39.240 in an envelope, write the return address, put a stamp on it and 115 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:43.590 get it back in the mail. Look at how hard that is. And 116 00:08:43.789 --> 00:08:46.950 Yeah, and so these direct these direct mail marketers. Back in the nineteen 117 00:08:46.990 --> 00:08:50.070 hundreds it would take, you know, two to four months sometimes to get 118 00:08:50.070 --> 00:08:54.309 all of the men to get enough response back to say, okay, the 119 00:08:54.429 --> 00:08:58.299 campaign is done. Now let's tally the results and see what happens. So 120 00:08:58.980 --> 00:09:01.299 the speed at which we can do things today is mind blowing. And so 121 00:09:01.419 --> 00:09:05.379 when you when I say, go back to the greats, they had to 122 00:09:05.620 --> 00:09:09.820 think so long and hard about what do we write? This is expensive, 123 00:09:09.009 --> 00:09:13.370 you know, we can't just write anything down and then just send it out. 124 00:09:13.490 --> 00:09:16.250 They really really had to think about it. And and so they've learned 125 00:09:16.289 --> 00:09:20.570 a lot. They spent a lot of money on testing and so all of 126 00:09:20.649 --> 00:09:22.570 the you know, all of the results that came back in the early nineteen 127 00:09:22.850 --> 00:09:28.000 nineteen hundreds is based on human psychology. And, by the way, human 128 00:09:28.080 --> 00:09:33.440 doesn't matter whether it's direct mail, Internet telephone. Human psychology has not changed 129 00:09:33.879 --> 00:09:37.240 in a hundred years. We're all still humans and we all still think the 130 00:09:37.320 --> 00:09:41.070 same way and we all have the same motivate motivators. We're trying to go 131 00:09:41.230 --> 00:09:43.629 towards towards happiness and away from fear. At least that's most of us. 132 00:09:45.149 --> 00:09:48.110 So when I say go back to the great study, Clod Hopkins, he 133 00:09:48.230 --> 00:09:50.350 wrote a book, and I think it was one thousand nine hundred and twenty 134 00:09:50.389 --> 00:09:54.700 four or called scientific advertising. He was one of the first pioneers to to 135 00:09:54.419 --> 00:10:00.340 figure out the direct mail and and how to measure the results. Study Eugene 136 00:10:00.340 --> 00:10:03.539 sworts from the S is a book called breakthrough advertising study. David Ogilvie, 137 00:10:03.940 --> 00:10:07.370 Ogilvie and advertising study, Game Kennedy, he's a little he's more recent, 138 00:10:07.529 --> 00:10:11.490 more s and two thousands. He was a really good at writing sales letters 139 00:10:11.529 --> 00:10:16.009 and doing direct response copy. Once you have a good basis of studying all 140 00:10:16.049 --> 00:10:20.129 the greats, then you don't have to reinvent the wheel. Just you know 141 00:10:20.330 --> 00:10:24.039 you have a basis of where to start. Then, once you've studied the 142 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:28.559 greats, I would recommend actually writing out sales letters. So that's where you 143 00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:33.559 really learn to craft the copy, is to writing your own sales letters. 144 00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:35.909 And you know Dan Kenny has a great book called the ultimate sales letter where 145 00:10:35.909 --> 00:10:39.509 you can learn the different formats. But it teaches you, hey, write 146 00:10:39.549 --> 00:10:41.190 aheadline, how to write a sub subhead, how to, you know, 147 00:10:41.669 --> 00:10:45.789 have appeal all, how to have interest, all those things. And once 148 00:10:45.909 --> 00:10:48.870 you actually get practice of writing your own sales letters, then you can start 149 00:10:48.870 --> 00:10:52.299 applying those principles to something that's a little bit shorter and a little bit easier, 150 00:10:52.580 --> 00:10:56.940 for example, email subject lines or a how about a hook like your 151 00:10:58.059 --> 00:11:01.620 adwords, the first first line on your adwords ad things like that. But 152 00:11:01.740 --> 00:11:07.169 you got to understand what you know what direct response copy is and what garners 153 00:11:07.250 --> 00:11:11.450 action from people, and that's that's the way you do it. So and 154 00:11:11.730 --> 00:11:15.690 it what you were saying kind of leads into my my next question, which 155 00:11:15.730 --> 00:11:24.000 is to what extent do you think just a talent for copywriting is exaggerated versus, 156 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:26.919 you know, it being a really learnable skill. I have a hunch 157 00:11:28.039 --> 00:11:31.120 that a lot of folks who don't, you know, emphasize it is because 158 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:35.350 they think you have to naturally be good at at writing or actually be good 159 00:11:35.350 --> 00:11:39.309 at engaging people that way in the first place before you can be effective. 160 00:11:39.350 --> 00:11:41.590 What do you think about that? I'm really glad you brought that question up, 161 00:11:41.710 --> 00:11:46.909 because you're so there. There was a an implied point in there, 162 00:11:46.029 --> 00:11:50.460 and and the point is is that most of copywriting is actually, I believe 163 00:11:50.500 --> 00:11:54.460 it's not talent like I think it helps to have some talent with writing, 164 00:11:54.940 --> 00:12:00.580 but you can still be a great copywriter even if you don't know how to 165 00:12:00.700 --> 00:12:05.649 write. And the reason I say that is because great copywriters they're not writing 166 00:12:05.690 --> 00:12:11.210 a whole bunch of brand new copy. What they're doing is swiping ideas from 167 00:12:11.370 --> 00:12:16.279 other copywriters and other sales letters. Remember all the greats. They've written a 168 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:18.799 lot of stuff. There's so many different swipe files out there and ads that 169 00:12:18.919 --> 00:12:22.399 you can look at and ideas that you can look at. You can go 170 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:26.799 look at old magazines and see if an ad's been running for twelve months straight, 171 00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:30.309 you know that it's working and it's making money. Go study those ads 172 00:12:30.389 --> 00:12:33.110 and see and see what you think are the factors that are making, you 173 00:12:33.230 --> 00:12:37.750 know, those ads stay in that magazine and at the you know the company 174 00:12:37.830 --> 00:12:41.549 is paying for that that ad continuously. It has to be working and there's 175 00:12:41.549 --> 00:12:45.700 insights there. And so a good copywriter is actually looking at all of the 176 00:12:45.820 --> 00:12:48.500 copy that has been written before and actually piecing it together. So a good 177 00:12:48.539 --> 00:12:54.580 copywriter is not actually like a journalist, it's more of like a detective and 178 00:12:54.740 --> 00:12:58.539 like saying Hey, what, what is important to do to people and how 179 00:12:58.570 --> 00:13:01.049 can we say this the right way, and then using other ads out there 180 00:13:01.129 --> 00:13:05.769 that have those words in them. Right, so treating it as you studying 181 00:13:05.809 --> 00:13:09.330 the data points. Basically it's a formula. It's a more you know what. 182 00:13:09.889 --> 00:13:15.480 As a formula, it sounds like back in the motown days, right. 183 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:18.320 You hear a lot of songs from that era with the song baby in 184 00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:22.759 them, right, and it's easy to think about that it's just a coincidence. 185 00:13:22.759 --> 00:13:24.759 But you, I think you and I know it's not right. They 186 00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:28.750 stayed studied that as a data point, like what are those the words in 187 00:13:28.909 --> 00:13:31.629 songs that people are responding to? How much more, you know, and 188 00:13:31.750 --> 00:13:37.590 more quickly are people buying these records where with the word baby in it specifically, 189 00:13:37.990 --> 00:13:39.710 then not, and then you're like you said, you don't have to 190 00:13:39.750 --> 00:13:43.659 reinvent the wheel. You kind of have your foundation for how to write this 191 00:13:43.779 --> 00:13:46.100 song already. You just know that you got to be talked about your baby 192 00:13:46.259 --> 00:13:48.659 and and and I'm hearing that and what you're saying and I love it because, 193 00:13:48.700 --> 00:13:52.779 to be honest with you, Andy, I've have fallen into this trap 194 00:13:52.940 --> 00:13:58.649 of Romanticizing copywriting. I am I've seen every single episode of mad men at 195 00:13:58.649 --> 00:14:01.970 least three times, and it's not that I wanted to be Peggy, I 196 00:14:03.090 --> 00:14:07.490 want to be dawn and and he's painted as this figure that does have this 197 00:14:07.649 --> 00:14:11.440 like supernatural talent for writing copy, for knowing which words will move people, 198 00:14:11.639 --> 00:14:15.480 and I think a little part of what all of us kind of wants to 199 00:14:15.639 --> 00:14:18.159 be that. But then if you if you get too wrapped up in that, 200 00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:22.960 as I as I am guilty of, then you overthink it and you 201 00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:26.029 don't produce, you end up not putting anything out. You end up, 202 00:14:26.029 --> 00:14:28.190 like I talked about before, like I confessed to you before, just, 203 00:14:28.710 --> 00:14:33.750 you know, copying out and going for what's cute right, absolutely and there. 204 00:14:33.870 --> 00:14:37.389 And when I was talking about the formula. Here's an example I've just 205 00:14:37.470 --> 00:14:41.019 typed in. I've got like a list of power words that I have and 206 00:14:41.100 --> 00:14:43.179 I ever know it. So you know, even if for you know some 207 00:14:43.299 --> 00:14:48.620 direct takeaways, that if someone wants to insert some of these words into their 208 00:14:48.740 --> 00:14:54.490 existing ad copy, these words work really well. Remarkable, amazing, easy, 209 00:14:54.570 --> 00:15:01.809 quick, revolutionary. Suddenly, so these are Ogilby's influential words and if 210 00:15:01.809 --> 00:15:05.929 you want to insert some of those, you'll immediately improve the power of your 211 00:15:07.009 --> 00:15:09.720 copy. And look at that. You didn't have to be a journalist or 212 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:11.120 a writer. You just grab some of those words and put them in. 213 00:15:11.720 --> 00:15:13.720 I love it. I love it so much. Listen, thank you for 214 00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:20.789 giving us these real, digestible, applicable ways to think about copywriting and make 215 00:15:20.830 --> 00:15:24.110 it a little bit less scary. Um, what I think I want to 216 00:15:24.149 --> 00:15:26.789 do? I'm going to bounce this idea off of you while I got you 217 00:15:26.950 --> 00:15:30.710 here. I'm obviously not going to stop what I've been doing. Right, 218 00:15:30.750 --> 00:15:33.389 we all have least sales people. We have our outreach sequence is built in 219 00:15:33.509 --> 00:15:37.059 with its level of automation that helps us be able to just get through a 220 00:15:37.100 --> 00:15:39.100 day and not go crazy. But what I want to challenge myself to do 221 00:15:39.179 --> 00:15:41.460 it. I'm not quite sure what it looks like, because this idea is 222 00:15:41.539 --> 00:15:46.179 forming as I'm speaking it to you. Is I'm going to think about ten 223 00:15:46.860 --> 00:15:52.090 top accounts that I want to reach out to and I'm going to practice writing 224 00:15:52.129 --> 00:15:58.210 sales letters to those accounts and then just see what what happens, see what 225 00:15:58.330 --> 00:16:00.850 the response to, see how I feel about what words this evokes from me 226 00:16:02.330 --> 00:16:06.759 and what what folks are responding to, and then use those data points and, 227 00:16:06.840 --> 00:16:10.240 like you talked about, apply it to the the shorter form and the 228 00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:14.639 more, the more automated things that I'm doing. Have you done? Is 229 00:16:14.679 --> 00:16:17.000 that what you did? Is that kind of what you just recommended in my 230 00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:21.389 crazy what? So I'm glad you brought that up. I mean, so 231 00:16:21.509 --> 00:16:26.350 there's a difference between a long form sales letter that you are sending out to 232 00:16:26.470 --> 00:16:32.590 a consumer to, you know, basically prep them and get them interested in 233 00:16:32.830 --> 00:16:37.460 buying a consumer product, and what you just mentioned outreach, which is like 234 00:16:37.620 --> 00:16:41.299 be to be, you know, email marketing, to get an appointment. 235 00:16:41.820 --> 00:16:45.580 So, for in terms of copywriting, for like be to be outbound emails, 236 00:16:45.620 --> 00:16:52.250 I actually think shorter is better and in terms of subject lines, like 237 00:16:52.570 --> 00:16:55.889 make them curiosity driven. Don't give the answer in the subject line, or 238 00:16:55.889 --> 00:16:59.210 else there's no reason to actually open the email. And that's one of the 239 00:16:59.210 --> 00:17:03.519 biggest mistakes I see is people make a subject line where there's no there's no 240 00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:07.440 reason actually open the email. So you know some of the subject lines we've 241 00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:12.279 used in the past that work really well is literally just hey aty. Think 242 00:17:12.319 --> 00:17:15.269 about how you'd write an email to a friend. You know you wouldn't say 243 00:17:15.750 --> 00:17:19.549 here are the top three ways to increase sales in two thousand and nineteen, 244 00:17:19.789 --> 00:17:22.349 like you know, I mean like that. Would never write that to a 245 00:17:22.390 --> 00:17:26.230 friend. So think about the friend factor and being colloquial. There are different 246 00:17:26.269 --> 00:17:32.619 styles. It's my style is let's let's be more friendly and colloquial and not 247 00:17:32.859 --> 00:17:36.779 be formal corporate. That the other thing I hate, and people can battle 248 00:17:36.859 --> 00:17:38.859 me on this all the time, as I'm not a big fan of html 249 00:17:38.980 --> 00:17:42.140 emails. Now, maybe for a BBC brand that you know you're trying to 250 00:17:42.259 --> 00:17:45.450 you're trying to grow a BTC brand, but with betob emails, keep them 251 00:17:45.529 --> 00:17:52.049 text based. Keep them you know right, like you talk. How you 252 00:17:52.130 --> 00:17:56.410 know if you're going to say have to say gotta, you know, be 253 00:17:56.609 --> 00:18:00.720 very friendly and colloquial and you'll get more response from your emails. I love 254 00:18:00.759 --> 00:18:03.799 it. I love it so much. So now, Andy, that you 255 00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:07.759 know I've successfully picked your brain and seeing all the wonderful things I could get 256 00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:11.160 out of it, it is time for you to tell us about what you 257 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:15.470 were putting in it. So talk about some resource that you have engaged with 258 00:18:15.670 --> 00:18:18.990 here that's informing your approach. That's just got you excited these days. Yeah, 259 00:18:19.190 --> 00:18:22.109 well, I mean I mentioned. Look, if this is all about 260 00:18:22.190 --> 00:18:26.309 copywriting and you're going to zone in on copywriting, I mean the books already 261 00:18:26.670 --> 00:18:33.740 are are absolute definite. So scientific advertising by Claude Hopkins, Eugene Schwartz, 262 00:18:33.779 --> 00:18:37.059 hard to get booked, but I think it's going back into prints called breakthrough 263 00:18:37.059 --> 00:18:41.890 advertising, Dan Kennedy's the the ultimate sales letter. Those are all for John 264 00:18:41.970 --> 00:18:47.049 Cable's has a book out and I'm now blanking on it. I've read it 265 00:18:47.130 --> 00:18:49.609 cover to cover. But those are, you know, the the core copywriting 266 00:18:49.650 --> 00:18:55.880 books in terms of you know, podcasts and whatnot. Man, I listened 267 00:18:55.920 --> 00:19:00.039 to way too many podcasts, but you know, what's actually good for for 268 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:06.079 copywriting is listen to seeking wisdom by drift drift is a bee tob conversational marketing 269 00:19:06.200 --> 00:19:08.799 company, but they're really big on on direct response marketing and you'll learn a 270 00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:14.990 lot of about copy and psychology by listening to their podcast. Sounds good, 271 00:19:15.029 --> 00:19:17.589 man. So I know that everybody listening and learning. For me today it's 272 00:19:17.630 --> 00:19:18.549 become a fast fan of yours. They're going to want to know how to 273 00:19:18.589 --> 00:19:22.069 keep up with you, and you tell the folks how they can connect with 274 00:19:22.109 --> 00:19:26.180 you. Yeah, I mean I'm on Linkedin, Andy mackinson. Usually people 275 00:19:26.380 --> 00:19:32.579 murder my last name so it's spelled M ack en. Seen. You hit 276 00:19:32.619 --> 00:19:34.940 me up on Linkedin. That's probably the best channel to hit me up on. 277 00:19:36.660 --> 00:19:38.369 Got It. And then, and then also, hey, little value 278 00:19:38.410 --> 00:19:42.529 bomb. If anyone I just realize this, if anyone's listening and they have 279 00:19:42.769 --> 00:19:47.250 ten or more employees in their office, we can actually give away a free 280 00:19:47.289 --> 00:19:52.609 snack box to their office. Just go to snack nationcom. Three, one, 281 00:19:52.769 --> 00:19:56.279 two, three, let's two, three and often for a free snack 282 00:19:56.319 --> 00:20:00.160 box. Nice. Thanks for the man hey, listen. The folks listening 283 00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:03.640 don't know this, but I'm gonna go ahead and tell him he's got lots 284 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:07.549 of value bombs. He's kind in terms of like things that and you can 285 00:20:07.710 --> 00:20:11.789 talk to us about that, we can implement, and we just chose copywriting 286 00:20:11.869 --> 00:20:15.470 for today. What I'm saying isn't going to have to have you back on 287 00:20:15.589 --> 00:20:18.029 the show, so you're going to have to suffer through another conversation with me. 288 00:20:18.509 --> 00:20:22.940 Sorry, not sorry, but for now we'll close this one out and 289 00:20:22.980 --> 00:20:26.740 I'll just say thank you so much from laying this out for us today and 290 00:20:26.980 --> 00:20:30.460 coming and talking to us about the importance of happy writing. Absolutely we're talking 291 00:20:30.460 --> 00:20:33.059 about underwater basket weaving. I am an expert, so happy to talk about 292 00:20:33.099 --> 00:20:41.569 that. Thanks and all right. Thanks. If you are a regular listener 293 00:20:41.650 --> 00:20:45.410 of BB growth, odds are you might enjoy sales success stories with Scott Ingram 294 00:20:45.490 --> 00:20:49.440 as well well. This year, thanks to a partnership with outreach and sales 295 00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:53.920 hacker, our friend Scott Ingram is making the live stream of his sales success 296 00:20:55.000 --> 00:21:00.640 summit available for free. The event is on October fourteen and fifteen, featuring 297 00:21:00.680 --> 00:21:06.670 thirteen presentations and five panels, all presented by top performing be tob sales professionals. 298 00:21:06.990 --> 00:21:11.150 You can check it out and register at top one DOT FM live. 299 00:21:11.549 --> 00:21:15.269 That's top the number one DOT FM LIVE