1126: How To Carve Out Your Path to Marketing Leadership w/ James Winter

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:04.240 A relationship with the right referral partner could be a game changer for any be 2 00:00:04.440 --> 00:00:08.509 to be company. So what if you could reverse engineer these relationships at a 3 00:00:08.630 --> 00:00:14.230 moment's notice, start a podcast, invite potential referral partners to be guests on 4 00:00:14.310 --> 00:00:19.670 your show and grow your referral network faster than ever? Learn more. At 5 00:00:19.750 --> 00:00:29.940 Sweet Fish Mediacom you're listening to be tob growth, a daily podcast for B 6 00:00:30.059 --> 00:00:34.460 TOB leaders. We've interviewed names you've probably heard before, like Gary Vander truck 7 00:00:34.539 --> 00:00:38.530 and Simon Senek, but you've probably never heard from the majority of our guests. 8 00:00:39.210 --> 00:00:43.329 That's because the bulk of our interviews aren't with professional speakers and authors. 9 00:00:43.929 --> 00:00:47.929 Most of our guests are in the trenches leading sales and marketing teams. They're 10 00:00:47.929 --> 00:00:53.600 implementing strategy, they're experimenting with tactics, they're building the fastest growing betb companies 11 00:00:53.600 --> 00:00:56.920 in the world. My name is James Carberry. I'm the founder of sweet 12 00:00:56.920 --> 00:01:00.719 fish media, a podcast agency for BB brands, and I'm also one of 13 00:01:00.759 --> 00:01:03.790 the CO hosts of this show. When we're not interviewing sales and marketing leaders, 14 00:01:04.030 --> 00:01:07.670 you'll hear stories from behind the scenes of our own business, will share 15 00:01:07.709 --> 00:01:11.189 the ups and downs of our journey as we attempt to take over the world. 16 00:01:11.870 --> 00:01:22.620 Just kidding. Well, maybe let's get into the show. Welcome back 17 00:01:22.659 --> 00:01:26.340 to be to be growth at am your host for today's episode, Nikki Ivy, 18 00:01:26.459 --> 00:01:30.700 with sweetish media guys. I've got with me today James Winter, who 19 00:01:30.859 --> 00:01:34.010 is vp of marketing at brand folder. James, how you doing today? 20 00:01:34.530 --> 00:01:38.250 I'm doing great, super happy to be here. Thank you so much for 21 00:01:38.290 --> 00:01:41.129 having me. Yeah, yeah, I'm happy you're here too. We're really 22 00:01:41.170 --> 00:01:44.650 talking about something that I'm personally very interested in and that I don't think we've 23 00:01:44.689 --> 00:01:47.959 actually laid out on the show here before. We're going to be telling the 24 00:01:48.079 --> 00:01:53.200 folks what it takes is to be on the path to be in marketing leadership. 25 00:01:53.280 --> 00:01:55.400 I do talk to a lot of folks who were in that role, 26 00:01:56.040 --> 00:02:00.519 but we don't often dig into what kind of background and skills it takes to 27 00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:02.230 get there. But before we dig into all of that, James, I'd 28 00:02:02.230 --> 00:02:06.829 love it if you just give us all a little bit of background on yourself 29 00:02:06.870 --> 00:02:08.949 and what you and the folks at brand folder have been up to these days. 30 00:02:08.990 --> 00:02:14.270 Yeah, absolutely so. I joined brand folder about a year ago and 31 00:02:14.509 --> 00:02:19.300 it's a super exciting company where in the digital asset management space and brand folder 32 00:02:19.580 --> 00:02:24.340 makes it super easy for brands of all shapes and sizes to find, manage, 33 00:02:24.500 --> 00:02:30.689 distribute and analyze all their digital assets, everything from photos, videos, 34 00:02:30.729 --> 00:02:35.449 d files, logos, etc. And it's a super exciting company for me 35 00:02:35.490 --> 00:02:39.689 because it poses the very interesting challenge of having a very broad target market. 36 00:02:40.530 --> 00:02:46.199 We have customers and so many different segments that it's really hard to narrow down. 37 00:02:46.240 --> 00:02:51.400 So you've got to be able to contact switch between selling to a head 38 00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:55.639 of creative operations at a company like event right to talking to someone in the 39 00:02:55.680 --> 00:03:00.669 Midwest to works and a very old school manufacturing industry. So that's been a 40 00:03:00.710 --> 00:03:05.150 super fun challenge that I've taken on since joining a company. It sounds like 41 00:03:05.189 --> 00:03:08.550 a super fun challenge and I can't wait something here more about the super funch 42 00:03:08.550 --> 00:03:14.780 challenges that you've experience in that both can anticipate on this this journey into a 43 00:03:14.900 --> 00:03:16.500 leadership as a as a marketer. I think that there is a lot of 44 00:03:16.580 --> 00:03:21.539 talking, a lot of conversation to individual contributors on, I'd say the sales 45 00:03:21.580 --> 00:03:24.500 side of the house. As far as how to get there. Nearly every 46 00:03:25.379 --> 00:03:29.090 sales leader that I follow or thought leave that I follow on linked in, 47 00:03:29.210 --> 00:03:31.169 for instance, talking about Ay Sales Reps. here's what you got to do 48 00:03:31.250 --> 00:03:34.729 to get there. Sit your leadership down and tell them that you want the 49 00:03:34.770 --> 00:03:38.289 job. Basically, is is the tone that that takes. But even the 50 00:03:38.370 --> 00:03:43.120 more prominent marketers that I follow aren't often talking about how they got there. 51 00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:46.599 And so let's let's dig in. You've got you got five points that you 52 00:03:46.639 --> 00:03:51.280 and I talked got offline that kind of give folks some insight. So let's 53 00:03:51.319 --> 00:03:58.229 start with your particular journey and and what you think was the maybe the number 54 00:03:58.270 --> 00:04:00.870 one factor as far as how you got there, and then we'll sort of 55 00:04:00.870 --> 00:04:06.110 work backwards into these these other ways. Yeah, absolutely. So. I 56 00:04:06.270 --> 00:04:11.580 think one interesting point that I just want to make is probably one of the 57 00:04:11.620 --> 00:04:15.819 reasons you don't hear a lot of marketers talking about this is there isn't really 58 00:04:15.860 --> 00:04:18.899 a set path. I think it's very different for everyone and while there is 59 00:04:19.139 --> 00:04:25.850 some things that might give you a higher probability of getting to that leadership position 60 00:04:25.970 --> 00:04:30.410 the given amount of time, I think marketing can be a very winding journey. 61 00:04:30.490 --> 00:04:35.209 But enough of that. My journey has actually been fairly straightforward to completely 62 00:04:35.410 --> 00:04:42.800 contradict everything that I just said. I started out with a internship in college 63 00:04:42.839 --> 00:04:47.199 at seagate doing product marketing for hard drives, and I knew nothing about hard 64 00:04:47.240 --> 00:04:51.399 drives of product marketing, so that was a pretty fun experience. And from 65 00:04:51.439 --> 00:04:56.990 there I did a little stint and product management, discovered it wasn't for me. 66 00:04:57.750 --> 00:05:00.790 I like being a little bit closer the customer than product orgs off and 67 00:05:00.829 --> 00:05:04.829 our, especially in very engineering heavy organizations, and then I did a couple 68 00:05:04.870 --> 00:05:11.379 stints as a product marketing manager, the first product marketing manager at some startups. 69 00:05:12.019 --> 00:05:15.300 The first one was next Mo, which was a pretty high growth company 70 00:05:15.500 --> 00:05:20.930 that went from about thirty employees to two hundred and went from like, I 71 00:05:21.009 --> 00:05:26.089 think, thirty million to three hundred million a year in rr and I was 72 00:05:26.170 --> 00:05:30.769 there managing all the product marketing for that that main product, which was a 73 00:05:30.850 --> 00:05:33.449 super fun experience had a lot of impact on my career growth in general. 74 00:05:34.370 --> 00:05:40.439 And from there took a Product Marketing Gig at dial pad, which was probably 75 00:05:40.519 --> 00:05:45.120 the most formative experience of my career because I got to work under a really 76 00:05:45.160 --> 00:05:49.310 great leader in Morgan Norman, as well as a ton of just really awesome 77 00:05:49.310 --> 00:05:53.750 marketers. He built such an amazing team. My boss, John Finch, 78 00:05:53.829 --> 00:05:57.269 who was running product marketing, Kira, my honey, is running to man 79 00:05:57.310 --> 00:06:00.149 Jin I. There's so many brilliant people that I got to work with on 80 00:06:00.230 --> 00:06:05.540 that team that it really had a huge impact on my desire to lead and 81 00:06:05.579 --> 00:06:10.819 also to put me in a position where that would be possible. And then 82 00:06:10.939 --> 00:06:15.699 from there I was interviewing for a couple other individual contributor product marketing manager roles, 83 00:06:16.459 --> 00:06:20.129 primarily a sales force and Uber at the time, and a very tiny 84 00:06:20.250 --> 00:06:25.370 startup that was about twenty people. The CEO reached out on Linkedin and asked 85 00:06:25.410 --> 00:06:29.689 me to come to interview and I went through the process and thought, you 86 00:06:29.769 --> 00:06:32.720 know, I wasn't really ready for it yet, and he sat me down 87 00:06:32.839 --> 00:06:35.480 he's like, you know what those roles are going to be at sales force 88 00:06:35.519 --> 00:06:40.040 an Uber Ten years from now? You don't always get a chance like this 89 00:06:40.279 --> 00:06:45.439 and it really resonated with me and I had the opportunity to work under some 90 00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:49.110 really bad marketing leaders and then a really great marketing leader, and seeing both 91 00:06:49.230 --> 00:06:54.310 extremes gave me the confidence to say, you know, I can probably do 92 00:06:54.589 --> 00:06:59.269 better than the worst I've seen and I've learned a lot from the best, 93 00:06:59.470 --> 00:07:01.899 so let's give this a shot. I love that. I'm I have questions 94 00:07:02.019 --> 00:07:09.779 on specifically what makes a person earned the tide of really bad marketing leader, 95 00:07:09.779 --> 00:07:12.819 but we'll come back to that. I notice we talk about your background. 96 00:07:12.819 --> 00:07:15.850 A lot of product in there right in, and that's you said. That's 97 00:07:15.930 --> 00:07:19.370 that's typical. We talked about. One of the first things to understand about 98 00:07:19.370 --> 00:07:27.810 this path is that seventy percent of the folks in marketing leadership have product backgrounds. 99 00:07:28.370 --> 00:07:31.399 So talk about why why you think that is. Yeah, so product 100 00:07:31.480 --> 00:07:35.800 marketing is a pretty tough role to define, but I think it shares a 101 00:07:35.879 --> 00:07:42.519 few things in common with being the head of marketing, because some of the 102 00:07:42.639 --> 00:07:46.470 things that you're most responsible for, like the messaging and positioning of the product, 103 00:07:47.029 --> 00:07:54.430 understanding customers needs, being cross functional, storytelling, those are all things 104 00:07:54.470 --> 00:07:59.100 that are so important when you're leading a marketing team. And not to say 105 00:07:59.259 --> 00:08:03.379 that other roles like to Managin or content might not be just as important, 106 00:08:03.620 --> 00:08:07.339 but I think product marketing gives you a little bit more of a taste of 107 00:08:07.500 --> 00:08:13.209 what marketing leadership would be like potentially than some other roles, because it touches 108 00:08:13.329 --> 00:08:16.529 so many different parts of the company. You're talking to the sales or a 109 00:08:16.689 --> 00:08:20.490 lot. You might be working with the customer success or. You have a 110 00:08:20.529 --> 00:08:26.600 lot of visibility. With leadership. You're responsible for this very important, all 111 00:08:26.639 --> 00:08:31.600 encompassing task of how everyone is going to be talking about your product and your 112 00:08:31.639 --> 00:08:35.960 customers. And so I think that's what it really leads to it and yeah, 113 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:39.919 it's fascinating. Clear Bet, I think, with a friend of mine, 114 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:45.509 put together a piece of content and they looked at three hundred marketing leadership 115 00:08:45.669 --> 00:08:50.509 roles and seventy or eighty percent of them started in product marketing or had product 116 00:08:50.549 --> 00:08:54.980 marketing experience. I think that's that's really good to no one understand, especially 117 00:08:54.980 --> 00:09:00.659 if you're beginning this journey and not knowing, like even if some foot like 118 00:09:00.700 --> 00:09:03.460 let's say you were coming from sales and wanting to get into marketing and not 119 00:09:03.580 --> 00:09:07.500 knowing where to go, and saying what's the sort of entry point to let 120 00:09:07.580 --> 00:09:11.970 folks know hey, products might be, what that injury point should be for 121 00:09:11.009 --> 00:09:16.049 you, I think, is a really valuable piece of advice. And then 122 00:09:16.330 --> 00:09:20.090 from there, from there you taught. We talked off line about some regrets 123 00:09:20.210 --> 00:09:24.200 you had coming up with respect to this this next sort of thing that folks 124 00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:28.480 should focus on, and that's what they absorbed from others. I think, 125 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:33.759 you know, it stands to reason if the reason why these backgrounds of most 126 00:09:33.759 --> 00:09:37.200 of these folks are in products is because it touches so many of the other 127 00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:41.750 orgs. So then that the idea that you're learning from all these other orgs 128 00:09:41.789 --> 00:09:48.470 as you come up and that being part of calculing that into being part of 129 00:09:48.549 --> 00:09:52.429 your path is really is really impactful. But talk about some regrets you have 130 00:09:52.470 --> 00:09:54.539 with respect to that? Yeah, just to clarify, because I think some 131 00:09:54.659 --> 00:10:01.139 people might be slightly confused. I'm referring to product marketing and product management is 132 00:10:01.259 --> 00:10:05.100 separate, so I just want to make that distinction in case some people are 133 00:10:05.100 --> 00:10:09.370 a little bit confused by that. But when I think back to dial pad, 134 00:10:11.210 --> 00:10:15.690 I did have a really great opportunity to learn from a lot of different 135 00:10:15.730 --> 00:10:18.970 people and I did take some of that stuff away. You know, I 136 00:10:18.129 --> 00:10:26.039 got to understand how important attribution is and marketing ops are. But while I 137 00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:30.120 saw a little bit of a high level, I totally fell into the trap, 138 00:10:30.200 --> 00:10:33.240 and I think a lot of people do this, where they're so focused 139 00:10:33.279 --> 00:10:37.909 on their day to day job that they don't take the time to really understand. 140 00:10:37.070 --> 00:10:41.149 You know, if you're in demand, Jen, what can I learn 141 00:10:41.149 --> 00:10:45.789 about product marketing from the person I sit next to every day? And my 142 00:10:45.990 --> 00:10:52.340 biggest regret was not taking more time to really sit down with my marketing ops 143 00:10:52.419 --> 00:10:56.019 person or by demand one person, to understand what they did and how their 144 00:10:56.059 --> 00:11:01.740 job worked and what type of really useful information I could take away from that. 145 00:11:01.940 --> 00:11:05.610 So I think the advice I would give there is, if you happen 146 00:11:05.809 --> 00:11:09.289 to be lucky enough to work at an organization that has a lot of really, 147 00:11:09.330 --> 00:11:16.929 really intelligent individual contributors in different facets of marketing, reach out to them 148 00:11:16.129 --> 00:11:22.240 ask them, Hey, teach me about this concept, like what is multitouch 149 00:11:22.279 --> 00:11:26.919 attribution? What is visible? Why is this important, or how do you 150 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:31.039 come up with a content strategy, whatever it is, because one of the 151 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:35.950 things that had a massive impact on my career was working under Morgan. He, 152 00:11:37.230 --> 00:11:41.470 better than almost anyone else I've ever worked for, had the ability to 153 00:11:41.629 --> 00:11:46.110 be dangerous in a conversation with anyone on the marketing team, whether that was 154 00:11:46.870 --> 00:11:50.659 the str organization, the demand unfunction, the marketing ops function. Events. 155 00:11:52.539 --> 00:11:54.700 He had such a broad base of knowledge, and this is something I'll talk 156 00:11:54.740 --> 00:12:03.330 about later, but contrasting that with previous leadership who had very, very deep 157 00:12:03.450 --> 00:12:09.330 knowledge in one particular area but didn't necessarily know how to talk or give advice 158 00:12:09.409 --> 00:12:13.690 or anything to other facets of it or disciplines. That was one of the 159 00:12:13.769 --> 00:12:18.720 things that I wish I had done a better job of that I had the 160 00:12:18.759 --> 00:12:22.279 opportunity to. I think that's a great idea, marketing or not, a 161 00:12:22.399 --> 00:12:26.519 lot of I am seeing a lot of folks even that same kind of advice 162 00:12:26.360 --> 00:12:33.309 to folks in with sales backgrounds in various other backgrounds as well. It's something 163 00:12:33.429 --> 00:12:39.830 that I kind of accidentally did well enough. I didn't know that it was 164 00:12:39.870 --> 00:12:43.269 a strategy. I was just being curious, but it's sort of it's sort 165 00:12:43.269 --> 00:12:48.100 of the internal version of this next of this next piece of the puzzle here, 166 00:12:48.139 --> 00:12:56.259 which is network like crazies. You're talking about within your organization and really 167 00:12:56.340 --> 00:13:00.009 within your team, maybe learning as much you can and taking away, but 168 00:13:00.450 --> 00:13:03.570 networking like crazy takes it to the next level. Go ahead and dig into 169 00:13:03.570 --> 00:13:09.409 that for us. Yeah, I think the thing that I probably do better 170 00:13:09.649 --> 00:13:15.440 than other things that I do. Weird way of saying this. But I 171 00:13:15.519 --> 00:13:20.639 think something I've been very fortunate and is really taking advantage of the time that 172 00:13:20.679 --> 00:13:26.750 I lived in San Francisco to develop relationships, both personally and professionally, with 173 00:13:26.830 --> 00:13:31.909 a lot of amazing people. And it's amazing because, yeah, you can 174 00:13:31.950 --> 00:13:37.830 learn a lot from people within your organization, but marketing moves at such a 175 00:13:37.870 --> 00:13:43.779 quick rate that anything you read online is probably not as effective by the time 176 00:13:43.779 --> 00:13:46.139 it gets published. So you really have to be on the cutting edge and 177 00:13:46.299 --> 00:13:52.500 there's no textbook or blog or singular piece of content you can read to learn 178 00:13:52.500 --> 00:13:56.090 about what you should be doing. And so I really take advantage of the 179 00:13:56.169 --> 00:14:01.330 fact that I'm friends with such smart, amazing people who can give me advice 180 00:14:01.929 --> 00:14:07.210 on pretty much anything. Like you know my friend Hudson Arnold, who works 181 00:14:07.250 --> 00:14:11.759 at dropbox now on the growth team. He kind of wrote the internal optimization 182 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:16.799 playbook for optimizedly. So if I ever have a question about testing our optimization, 183 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:20.600 I can go to him. Or you know my friend Karen who was 184 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:24.669 who speaks on panels about ABM and he's really smart about that. If ever 185 00:14:24.669 --> 00:14:28.870 ever questioned about that, I can go to him. And so just developing 186 00:14:28.909 --> 00:14:35.230 those relationships and I think a lot of people talk about networking in the singleminded 187 00:14:35.269 --> 00:14:37.940 way of like helping you get further along in your career, which I think 188 00:14:37.980 --> 00:14:41.940 it is very valuable for as well. But there's so much you can learn 189 00:14:41.980 --> 00:14:46.460 from other people and oftentimes they're very happy to share and talk about it to 190 00:14:46.620 --> 00:14:50.539 you. So take advantage of that as much as possible for real, straight 191 00:14:50.580 --> 00:14:54.850 up sound advice. You know I'm feeling it when I I throw away all 192 00:14:56.009 --> 00:15:01.009 pretexts and pretense and just start growing slaying at you like straight up dog. 193 00:15:01.210 --> 00:15:05.129 That's what you got to Google can only take you so far, homie. 194 00:15:05.250 --> 00:15:09.679 No, but there's no two ways about it. When you talk about with 195 00:15:09.879 --> 00:15:11.240 the real one, this is the type of thing that comes out, and 196 00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:13.840 so you this is we're going to come back to this point, of the 197 00:15:13.960 --> 00:15:20.559 folks you learn from, because they had a sort of a broader sense of 198 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:26.070 knowledge and interaction with other disciplines, and you were talking about it offline. 199 00:15:26.230 --> 00:15:30.190 It with respect to this this t shape model that folks are using a lot 200 00:15:30.230 --> 00:15:33.070 of the time when it comes to how they map out their career, how 201 00:15:33.110 --> 00:15:37.419 they prepare themselves for what's next. Talk about that a little bit and why 202 00:15:37.500 --> 00:15:41.539 you think maybe folks should chill on that a little bit. Yeah, I 203 00:15:41.659 --> 00:15:46.779 think this is probably one of my more controversial opinions, although I have plenty 204 00:15:46.860 --> 00:15:50.330 of them. My my friend here at work likes to say that I've got 205 00:15:50.370 --> 00:15:54.929 plenty of hot takes, but this one, and just for folks that aren't 206 00:15:54.090 --> 00:16:00.450 familiar t shape marketer refers to someone that has broad knowledge covering a wide range 207 00:16:00.490 --> 00:16:03.720 of things, but goes really in depth and one or two areas, and 208 00:16:03.799 --> 00:16:07.840 I think generally that is good advice. I think you do need to have 209 00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:11.879 at least one sort of specialty, especially if you're at a very early stage 210 00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:15.279 start up. You may or may not, even, as the leader, 211 00:16:15.879 --> 00:16:19.509 be the most knowledgeable person in that area. But I think you hit the 212 00:16:19.590 --> 00:16:22.909 point of diminishing returns, and this is just my own personal opinion, I 213 00:16:22.990 --> 00:16:27.990 think you hit the point of diminishing returns on that way quicker than most people 214 00:16:27.990 --> 00:16:33.500 probably realize. You can kind of think of it like, are you going 215 00:16:33.659 --> 00:16:40.740 to really learn that much more by spending ten years as a demand gend director 216 00:16:41.019 --> 00:16:42.940 marketer, in terms of something that would actually help you as a leader, 217 00:16:44.059 --> 00:16:48.090 compared to if you spent five years doing that and then spent the other five 218 00:16:48.169 --> 00:16:52.809 years learning other disciplines. And I'm sure not everyone agrees with this and I'm 219 00:16:52.809 --> 00:16:56.129 sure there's a good argument against it, but for me, when I looked 220 00:16:56.129 --> 00:17:00.009 at my career path and I was making the decision between staying in product marketing, 221 00:17:00.250 --> 00:17:03.880 doing it at a really great organization and learning from other product marketers, 222 00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:08.319 which definitely had a lot of value, but when I compared that to how 223 00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:12.880 much I could learn about building a marketing team and organization and system from the 224 00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:18.269 ground up, brand new to the company for the first time ever, I 225 00:17:18.390 --> 00:17:22.390 saw a greater opportunity to learn by going down that route, and that's something 226 00:17:22.430 --> 00:17:26.789 I've always valued super highly in my career. So I think you know, 227 00:17:27.269 --> 00:17:32.140 get your specialty, get good at it, learn it, but don't be 228 00:17:32.259 --> 00:17:37.059 afraid to jump into something else even if you don't feel like you've learned everything 229 00:17:37.140 --> 00:17:41.819 there possibly is to know. In all likelihood, if you understand eighty percent 230 00:17:41.859 --> 00:17:45.529 of the role that you've been doing, you've probably maxed out the the main 231 00:17:45.730 --> 00:17:48.930 point of value that you would get from staring in it, for sure, 232 00:17:49.130 --> 00:17:52.970 and at that at that point of diminishing return, that's the point at which 233 00:17:52.650 --> 00:17:56.329 we get to this next idea, which is you you at a certain point 234 00:17:56.369 --> 00:18:03.079 just got to start like betting on yourself and and jumping in and you know, 235 00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:06.599 maybe you'll learn some things that you didn't know on on the fly, 236 00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:10.000 but you would have even learned which didn't know if you just stayed where you 237 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:14.150 were safe. So that's the the fifth sort of facet of this career path, 238 00:18:14.150 --> 00:18:18.109 as you've laid it out for us, has to take the leak. 239 00:18:18.190 --> 00:18:22.710 Talk about what that looked like for you. Yeah, one thing that I 240 00:18:22.910 --> 00:18:29.099 considered myself pretty fortunate in is I've never really been too afraid of putting myself 241 00:18:29.140 --> 00:18:33.740 in new situations. I grew up internationally as a kid. I moved around 242 00:18:33.740 --> 00:18:38.740 a little bit and I think that taught me at a young age that oftentimes, 243 00:18:40.299 --> 00:18:42.849 whatever you're worried about as far as like taking a jump into something new, 244 00:18:44.130 --> 00:18:48.250 it's almost always worse than actually ends up being, and I think people 245 00:18:48.250 --> 00:18:55.210 are highly adaptable and there's so much opportunity in taking that amount of risk that 246 00:18:55.289 --> 00:18:57.839 you can and whatever you feel comfortable with, pushing it a little bit and 247 00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:00.839 putting yourself in a new situation, because that's the best way to learn, 248 00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:06.200 and I think that's one of the things that's so great about living in San 249 00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:11.470 Francisco, where all this tech is, because everything moves so fast and you 250 00:19:11.589 --> 00:19:17.230 learn so much by jumping from one company to another, because every company does 251 00:19:17.309 --> 00:19:22.630 things slightly differently and you get the opportunity to learn from so many more people. 252 00:19:22.230 --> 00:19:26.339 And how so any more people do things than you would if you stayed 253 00:19:26.380 --> 00:19:30.900 at one place. And I remember having this sort of heated discussion with one 254 00:19:30.900 --> 00:19:33.579 of the investors at the first startup I worked at, because he was trying 255 00:19:33.619 --> 00:19:37.259 to convince me not to leave, and I respect his opinion greatly and I 256 00:19:37.380 --> 00:19:41.049 love the Guy, but he his argument was I would learn more by staying 257 00:19:41.089 --> 00:19:45.450 at next moment and watching it sort of get acquired and do all these things 258 00:19:45.450 --> 00:19:52.170 that ended up going on to happen, but it never really seemed to sink 259 00:19:52.250 --> 00:19:55.920 in with me and I think I believe that there's so much more to learn 260 00:19:56.079 --> 00:20:00.039 out there and San Francisco was such a great place to do it that I 261 00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:04.400 would be remiss not to take that opportunity. And so I've never been afraid 262 00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:08.230 to job hoop. You know, I don't at all mind putting myself in 263 00:20:08.309 --> 00:20:15.109 new situations. I think that's super exciting, and so when my previous CEO, 264 00:20:15.349 --> 00:20:19.630 Eric, reached out to recruit me to join a spire Iq I. 265 00:20:21.190 --> 00:20:26.619 I was definitely trependacious and there was a lot of doubt and questions of my 266 00:20:26.740 --> 00:20:30.740 mind, but I was fortunate enough to be able to take that riscue. 267 00:20:30.900 --> 00:20:33.660 I didn't have a family, my career was established enough that I wouldn't have 268 00:20:33.660 --> 00:20:38.369 had a ton of difficulty finding another job if I needed one, and so 269 00:20:40.529 --> 00:20:44.609 just saying screw it, jump off the ledge, put yourself in that new 270 00:20:44.690 --> 00:20:49.240 position. I think most people, and I had this conversation with with a 271 00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:53.640 friend of mine recently where she asked, how did you know when you were 272 00:20:53.720 --> 00:20:59.599 ready, and it kind of goes back to some of the poor leaders I've 273 00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:03.279 worked for in the past. But I think most people are probably more ready 274 00:21:03.309 --> 00:21:07.789 than they think they are and it's easy to fall victim to the imposter syndrome 275 00:21:07.309 --> 00:21:15.190 idea of like needing to check off xboxes to get to the point where you 276 00:21:15.190 --> 00:21:19.019 feel ready for this. But I think it's probably earlier than you think it 277 00:21:19.220 --> 00:21:23.059 is. Yeah, I I agree. I've seen I've seen this and I 278 00:21:23.099 --> 00:21:26.740 spent some time in Austin, in the startup streets of Austin. Text has, 279 00:21:26.859 --> 00:21:32.579 which aren't too dissimilar from what you describe in a San Francisco in terms 280 00:21:32.579 --> 00:21:37.690 of there being this opportunity to experience how things work up close at a bunch 281 00:21:37.730 --> 00:21:42.049 of different companies right, a bunch of different startups, and so there is 282 00:21:42.049 --> 00:21:45.250 a lot of folks going from one companies to the next, and there's an 283 00:21:45.289 --> 00:21:51.039 understanding about that among the folks who are hiring these individual contributors who just kind 284 00:21:51.079 --> 00:21:52.960 of get it right. These are these are just folks who are trying to 285 00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:56.079 it's more than just trying to find, you know, do they like this 286 00:21:56.160 --> 00:22:00.359 this roll or this industry? It's just trying to learn as much as they 287 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:03.630 came because I, for one, would be a lot more satisfied with myself 288 00:22:03.630 --> 00:22:08.109 if I could say, yeah, I I learned what sales looks like and 289 00:22:08.230 --> 00:22:11.029 had an impact on the on it at Google and then I got to do 290 00:22:11.069 --> 00:22:14.710 it again at indeed, and then I got to do it again at, 291 00:22:14.950 --> 00:22:17.980 you know, you ship, or whatever it is, right, versus just, 292 00:22:18.099 --> 00:22:21.700 yeah, I saw this one start up from from you know, start 293 00:22:21.700 --> 00:22:25.819 up to acquisition like you were just describing. See, I think that's great 294 00:22:25.859 --> 00:22:29.619 advice. And one thing too, is, as a manager now I really 295 00:22:29.660 --> 00:22:33.769 appreciate people who have actually spent time at a variety of different companies for that 296 00:22:33.890 --> 00:22:38.369 exact reason that you mentioned, which is I think those people are generally going 297 00:22:38.410 --> 00:22:42.890 to be more knowledgeable than someone who stayed in one role at one company for 298 00:22:42.970 --> 00:22:47.440 a long time. One more question I wanted to ask to just in terms 299 00:22:47.480 --> 00:22:51.119 of this care your path thing that you mentioned sort of in the beginning. 300 00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:55.400 You said you did an internship right right out of college for folks who are 301 00:22:55.599 --> 00:23:00.549 wanting to go safe from from sales into into marketing leadership. Would you recommend 302 00:23:00.869 --> 00:23:07.349 or do you think it's necessary to go back and get a graduate degree in 303 00:23:07.549 --> 00:23:11.390 marketing, or would you say just learn from one of the entry level in 304 00:23:11.630 --> 00:23:15.900 it or individual contributor roles within marketing, play a product marketing role in order 305 00:23:15.900 --> 00:23:21.019 to get there? Yeah, it's a great question and I've talked a lot 306 00:23:21.059 --> 00:23:23.579 about this with a number of different people, especially in product marketing, because 307 00:23:23.579 --> 00:23:29.970 there's generally not a super straightforward career path to it. The most common way 308 00:23:30.049 --> 00:23:33.329 to get into it, like you mentioned, is an MBA and that's a 309 00:23:34.210 --> 00:23:38.170 soft requirement for a lot of companies, but especially bigger companies. If you 310 00:23:38.210 --> 00:23:41.359 want to be in product marketing. You probably need your MBA, but I 311 00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:45.960 don't think it's the only way. I think one of the cool things about 312 00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:51.079 startups is if you prove yourself and if there's a need and if the the 313 00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:56.349 stars Aligne. You can put yourself in a position to do almost anything and 314 00:23:56.910 --> 00:24:00.910 if you offer to help out, and I think actually sales people, the 315 00:24:02.029 --> 00:24:07.670 best sales people, could probably be great product marketers because they know how to 316 00:24:07.789 --> 00:24:11.539 tailor pitch to the right person. They know their customers super well, they 317 00:24:11.619 --> 00:24:15.980 know the product super well, they have a really good background on a lot 318 00:24:15.980 --> 00:24:19.900 of that stuff. So if you are a salesperson at a company, at 319 00:24:19.900 --> 00:24:25.210 a smaller start up or even a bigger attack company or wherever, and you 320 00:24:25.329 --> 00:24:27.529 want to break into marketing, I think one of the best ways to do 321 00:24:27.569 --> 00:24:32.609 it is start to get involved. Like go ask to help out with the 322 00:24:32.690 --> 00:24:36.369 product launch to see how it works or we're not. When I'm going through 323 00:24:36.369 --> 00:24:41.119 a launch, I like just solicit feedback from sales and I leverage the handful 324 00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:45.039 of sales people that I trust a lot to help sharpen that messaging and get 325 00:24:45.079 --> 00:24:51.359 their feedback on the materials that were putting together and the launch plan and if 326 00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:53.950 a salesperson came to me and wanted to really help out and took the initiative, 327 00:24:55.630 --> 00:24:59.230 I certainly wouldn't say no. And if they if you do that enough 328 00:24:59.230 --> 00:25:02.869 and your gut at it, then and a roll POPs up, that's a 329 00:25:02.910 --> 00:25:08.059 great way to make that transition. But Grad School is definitely NBA is definitely 330 00:25:08.099 --> 00:25:12.579 a very, very common path as well. Thanks so much. I I 331 00:25:12.740 --> 00:25:17.460 love the way you laid this out. It was full of value, full 332 00:25:17.500 --> 00:25:19.700 of backsful things that peop looking really at use, which is a goal of 333 00:25:19.779 --> 00:25:23.369 mine for this show. So now that I'm successfully picked your brain and seeing 334 00:25:23.410 --> 00:25:26.450 what I could get out of it, it's time, James Be, to 335 00:25:26.490 --> 00:25:29.769 tell us about what you are putting in it. So tell us about a 336 00:25:30.529 --> 00:25:33.049 learning resource of something that you've engaged with here recently. That is, you 337 00:25:33.130 --> 00:25:37.799 know, forming your approach. That's just thought you excited these days. Oh 338 00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:41.480 Man, that's a great question. I am all over the place. I 339 00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:45.640 read a lot, both on the book side but also I think there's so 340 00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:51.069 many great people putting content out there. Some of the stuff I've been reading 341 00:25:51.190 --> 00:25:56.029 more recently is by Mick Pno, that's myk Po and oh he puts out 342 00:25:56.029 --> 00:26:00.710 a lot of great stuff around product marketing and marketing in general. His content. 343 00:26:00.869 --> 00:26:03.299 He doesn't publish a lot, but the stuff that he does publish is 344 00:26:03.339 --> 00:26:07.779 really great. But honestly, the majority of the stuff that I learned is 345 00:26:07.859 --> 00:26:11.059 actually just from talking to people. So I hate to sound like a broken 346 00:26:11.099 --> 00:26:17.019 record, but I think you can learn so much more just by talking to 347 00:26:17.099 --> 00:26:19.609 a few people than you could by reading six hours worth of articles. So 348 00:26:21.250 --> 00:26:23.289 I would say just try to keep in touch with people as much as possible 349 00:26:23.369 --> 00:26:30.089 and follow them on Linkedin if they're publishing smart stuff, and try to develop 350 00:26:30.130 --> 00:26:33.039 that relationship because it goes a long way. Sound advise me, and I 351 00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:33.839 do that on the show every day. I get to do it for a 352 00:26:34.039 --> 00:26:38.480 living. People, pople are definitely a learning resource if you if you pay 353 00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:42.279 attention, and so I know that, just like me, everybody listening has 354 00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:45.160 become fast fans of yours and they're going to want to know how to keep 355 00:26:45.160 --> 00:26:48.309 up with you, James. So tell us how folks you connect with you. 356 00:26:48.670 --> 00:26:53.029 Yeah, I I'm not much of a twitter user, so probably the 357 00:26:53.069 --> 00:26:57.670 best ways on Linkedin you can find me. It's just James, winter like 358 00:26:57.829 --> 00:27:03.900 the season on on Linkedin and happy to always happy to meet people. I 359 00:27:04.019 --> 00:27:10.579 love meeting people. It's my favorite part of working. So please feel free 360 00:27:10.619 --> 00:27:14.299 to send her a quest and shoot me a message. And if anyone's ever 361 00:27:14.380 --> 00:27:18.569 curious about making a jump from individual contributor to head of marketing or has any 362 00:27:18.609 --> 00:27:22.170 questions about that what it's been like, I'm super happy to talk about it. 363 00:27:22.609 --> 00:27:26.130 Love it. Thank you so much. I have a bunch more questions, 364 00:27:26.170 --> 00:27:29.690 just because your background kind of mirrors a lot of the things that I 365 00:27:29.809 --> 00:27:33.640 personally would like to accomplish. So that means, James, that you're gonna 366 00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:36.960 have to suffer through another one of these with me sometime. I have you 367 00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:40.319 back, then vote. For now. We'll close US down. I'll just 368 00:27:40.599 --> 00:27:42.480 and say thank you so much. I've been on the show with us today. 369 00:27:42.519 --> 00:27:45.630 Yeah, thank you so much. Like you, this is great. 370 00:27:45.869 --> 00:27:48.309 Love everything that you guys are doing, so keep it up. If you're 371 00:27:48.349 --> 00:27:52.670 a regular listener of B Tob Growth, odds are you might enjoy sales success 372 00:27:52.750 --> 00:27:57.109 stories with Scott Ingram as well well. This year, thanks to a partnership 373 00:27:57.109 --> 00:28:02.700 with outreach and sales hacker, our friend Scott Ingram is making the live stream 374 00:28:02.819 --> 00:28:07.339 of his sales success summit available for free. The event is on October fourteen 375 00:28:07.539 --> 00:28:14.410 and fifteen, featuring thirteen presentations and five panels, all presented by top performing 376 00:28:14.650 --> 00:28:18.730 be tob sales professionals. You can check it out and register at top one 377 00:28:18.890 --> 00:28:23.849 DOT FM live. That's top the number one DOT FM LIVE